1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. This 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: week we are bringing you a special follow up episode 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: from our Carbon Bros. Collaboration with the show Non Toxic. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Daniel Penny's complete interview with Progressive Senate candidate Abdul el Sayet. 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: El Sayet is running for Senate. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: In Michigan and his own pathway to climate and his 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: take on empathetic masculinity through a breath of fresh air 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: these days. I hope you enjoy their conversation as much 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: as I did here it is. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on Carbon Bros. It's 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: a pleasure to have you, and I think I'm one 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: of many podcasts that you've been appearing on. You've been 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: doing the rounds, which is good to see. It's a 14 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: theme that comes up quite a bit in the first 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 2: episode of this mini series me and I have been 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: working on and given your ad actually for your campaign. 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: There's a podcast features quite prominently and there will talk 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 2: a little bit about that later in our conversation. I 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: thought maybe you could start with just like a brief 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: introduction of who you are, why you're running for Senate 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: in Michigan. 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, Daniel, first thank you so much for having me 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 3: excited about your projects, because I think you're talking about 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 3: some really important issues. I'm honored to be here. My 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: name is Abdul I'll say I am running for Senate 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: in Michigan and frankly as a physician and epidemiologist whose 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: work has been about trying to use government to make 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: life better, easier, and more dignified for people. One of 29 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: the things that has become overwhelming, I think for most 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 3: of us, is that it just shouldn't be this hard 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: to get by in the riches's most powerful country in 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 3: the world. You shouldn't have to worry about the quality 33 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 3: of air you breathether the water that you drink, or 34 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: whether or not you can go see a doctor, or 35 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: whether or not you can afford your groceries or walk 36 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: in your community without being victimized by a neighbor or 37 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 3: the state itself. All of these things come back to 38 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: one central issue, which is that we've allowed corporations and 39 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: would be all garchs to dominate too much of our 40 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: lives in the ways that they can use their money 41 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: and their power to buy politics and buy politicians that 42 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: allow them to rig the system for them, and so 43 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: we're running a campaign do three very simple things that 44 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 3: are really hard to do, but simple things. Number One, 45 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 3: we want to take money out of politics. We want 46 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: to break the system by which corporations and oligarchs are 47 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: trying to rig it. Second, we want to put more 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 3: money in people's pockets, and that means standing up to 49 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: huge corporations that have rigged the system that force us 50 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: to pay more for the things that we have to 51 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 3: buy from them and leave us being paid less for 52 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: the work that we do for them. We want to 53 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: make it easier to build and scale small businesses, and 54 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: easier to join a former union. And then, finally, in 55 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 3: the richest, most powerful country in the world, I believe 56 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: people should just be guaranteed healthcare, and we can do 57 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 3: that by passing Medicare for All. 58 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: You've had a long career of service, which I think 59 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: it's an important kind of segue. You didn't just go 60 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: from being a doctor to deciding to be in politics. 61 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: This isn't the story of doctor oz God. No. You 62 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: know you're someone who's been thinking about how there are 63 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: a lot of unequal outcomes and health for people in 64 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: your home state, and what's driving those problems. I thought 65 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: maybe we could start our conversation with how you got 66 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: started in government? 67 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it goes back to why became a 68 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 3: doctor in the first place. I went to medical school 69 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: and came to realize that the question in medicine is 70 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: really simple, what's wrong and how can I help? And 71 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 3: too often the answer to what's wrong had less to 72 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: do with all the physiology I was studying, and a 73 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: lot more to do with pathologies in our politics, do 74 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: you get to breathe clean air or drink clean water? 75 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: Do you get to afford the micronutrients that nourish a 76 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 3: brain or the macronutrients that nourish a belly? Can you 77 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 3: see a doctor in the first place without worrying about 78 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: falling into medical debt? And when you ask those questions 79 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: and you get those answers, you start to realize that 80 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: the work of healing, the work of taking on those 81 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 3: ten year life expectancy gaps, usually happens outside of a 82 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: clinic or a hospital. And I followed my passion about 83 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 3: solving these problems back out of the clinic and hospital 84 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: into public health. I got to rebuild Detroit's health department 85 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: after it had been shut down by the state of 86 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: Michigan that forced the city into bankruptcy, rebuilt it around 87 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: the well being of kids, to provide kids glasses and 88 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: take lead out of schools, and stand up to corporate polluters. 89 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: Most recently, I was serving Wayne County, the largest municipality 90 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: in the largest municipal health department in the state. We 91 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 3: did things like eliminate medical debt for upwards of three 92 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 3: hundred thousand people, put in narcan in one hundred different 93 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: locations to address the opioid overdose crisis, build a state 94 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 3: of the art air quality monitoring system, expand access to 95 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: health insurance for small businesses, and that work was really 96 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: important to me. If you're curious about what actually causes illness, 97 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 3: then you have to be curious about the political system 98 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 3: that's created it. And I think it will require us 99 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: to do more than just stand up to Trump. We've 100 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: got to be fighting for a solution to the set 101 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: of problems that Trump exploited in the first place to 102 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: come to power. 103 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 2: I was just curious a little bit to hear about 104 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: the pollution stuff that you were dealing with. I think 105 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: for a lot of people, the climate crisis is this 106 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: really abstract idea. It's something as far away, or maybe 107 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: it's something that you see on the news in the 108 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: form of a disaster. However, I think people are a 109 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: lot more motivated by problems of air pollution and water pollution, 110 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: which are obviously related to the climate crisis, especially air pollution. 111 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: You know, if you have really bad emissions in your 112 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: community from like a highway or something, it's going to 113 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: increase asthma and you're going to see sick kids or 114 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: older people with respiratory problems and heart disease and things 115 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: like that. 116 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: One of the hard parts of the climate crisis is 117 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 3: that it's like a really challenging problem to clearly connect 118 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: cause and effect. And that's because it exists because of 119 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: a whole system of energy production in which any of 120 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: our participation is really actually quite small, but exists at 121 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 3: a level that's higher than us, which is the level 122 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 3: of the factory that burns stuff that comes out of 123 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: the ground to heat and provide energy for our homes. 124 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: And then it happens on a time horizon that's not direct, 125 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: in the sense that a lot of what we're experiencing 126 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: now is a function of things that happen five to 127 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 3: ten years ago. And then there's a lot of money 128 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: being spent to push back on a clear understanding of 129 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: cause and effect. So this is one of the naughtiest 130 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: problems to solve, And the problem with that is that 131 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 3: people who want to actually solve the climate crisis too 132 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: often fixate on emblems of that crisis that people have 133 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: no actual connection to. So like, for a long time, 134 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 3: the emblem was like starving polar bears. I'm not going 135 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: to change my whole life around some polar bears. But 136 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: the thing we ignore is that every moment that we're 137 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: releasing climate gases into the atmosphere, they're being sieved through 138 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: the lungs of our children. So you can see not 139 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: too far from where I am right now, images of 140 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 3: kids playing in a playground with a smoke stack right 141 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: behind them. And we've failed that in large part because 142 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: I hate to say it, for a lot of us 143 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: who have the privilege to be insulated from those smoke 144 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 3: stacks right like to me. The thing that is so pressing, 145 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: both about that smoke stack and about climate change more generally, 146 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: is that these are going to have profound impacts on 147 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: the lives of people I swore an oath to protect, 148 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: and so it's not hard for me to say, hey, listen, 149 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: the climate change part of this is like the chronic, 150 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: long term consequence, but the acute part is that you 151 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: have to breathe these gases. Your kids have to breeze 152 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: these gases, and they're winding them up in the emergency 153 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: room because of asthma exacerbations multiple times a week. And frankly, 154 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: if we addressed that problem, the acute problem, we'd be 155 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: a resting the chronic problem too. 156 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 157 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about one demographic 158 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: in particular that you're trying to reach with your message, 159 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: which is men and young men who really swung for 160 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: Trump in the twenty twenty four election. I think that 161 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: it's been well trodden at this point that they the 162 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: narrative that DEM's had about the idea that young people 163 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: were becoming increasingly progressive and that all young people felt 164 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: like Democrats were their party. It didn't pan out, and 165 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: at least among young men. Now there's this big gender 166 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: divide between women and men in politics, especially those under thirty. 167 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of soul searching on the part 168 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: of DEM's trying to figure out what went wrong. Many 169 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: attribute the failure of Kamala Harris's race to an inability 170 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: to connect with men or to not go on the 171 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 2: right podcast. I think that's a bit simplistic. It has 172 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: more to do with the values and stories that you're telling, 173 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: not just like whether or not you appear on Joe 174 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: Rogan that I think going on Joe Rogan certainly doesn't 175 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: hurt if you're trying to reach a broad audience. But 176 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: I'm curious how you're thinking about winning back this demographic that, 177 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: by all rights, that the Dems should have won, and 178 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: how you're trying to communicate with them, like what values 179 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: or aspirations you're trying to speak to, and how you 180 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: think the left needs to address this crisis of masculinity. 181 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a couple of things. Number One, 182 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: you know that we do play this game sometimes of 183 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: people being just too precious about platforms, like how dare 184 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: they do? How dare they talk to that person they're like? 185 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: Last I checked politics about persuasion, which means you have 186 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: to talk to people who don't agree with you. Number Two, 187 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: I can't credibly call myself young anymore. I just turned forty, 188 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 3: so that puts me in some like weird another region 189 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: and I've got my own kids now who are definitely young. 190 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: I got a whole feeling about this, But I remember 191 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 3: what it was like to be very young. And let 192 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: me just tell you the thing about being young is 193 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 3: that you want to be bold, you want to have fun, 194 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: and you don't really like rules very much. I gotta 195 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: tell you I'm still that way. The problem with Democrats 196 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: is culturally, let's think about what the stereotype of Democrats 197 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: are not very bold, not very fun, and seem to 198 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: really like the rules, and so it's not like from 199 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: a cultural standpoint, part of me is is like you 200 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 3: kind of forgot what was transgressive about what it meant 201 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: to be a Democrat where you were willing to fight 202 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 3: against these big, powerful corporations to try and win on 203 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: behalf of the little guy. Like, to me, that's pretty bold. 204 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: I'm gonna do something, have some fun with it, let 205 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 3: loose a little bit. And Democrats these days, too often, 206 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: because of the way we do politics, bought off by 207 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: big corporations. So you're not gonna be transgressive at all 208 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 3: because you're not gonna stand up to the corporation to 209 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: or funding your campaign. And then because you're kind of 210 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: lying to voters that's not very fun. And then from there, 211 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: like a lot of what we focus on is, oh, 212 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 3: but they're breaking the rules. What would we do if 213 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: they break all the rules? You're like, Look, the thing 214 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 3: you have to get at is who set the rules 215 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: in the first place and who are they working for? 216 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 3: And I just think we have a clear message that 217 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: can be bold, fun and willing to take on the 218 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: status quo of who wrote the rules in the first place, 219 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: and I think that we need to lean into that. 220 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: The problem is that the majority of the Democratic Party 221 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 3: cannot because there is nothing transgressive about asking a corporate 222 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: pack to write you a check to uphold the status 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: quote that they wrote. Let's just be clear about that. 224 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 3: And then the final point that I'll say is this, 225 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: because we're not willing to do anything structural, we've leaned 226 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 3: in on this whole social conversation and so we end 227 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 3: up sounding like a nineties era sociology textbook. And there's 228 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: this trope of like toxic masculinity, And every time you 229 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: hear the word masculinity among people on the left, it's 230 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 3: usually it usually comes with that toxic trope. Now, if 231 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: there's not another option about a non toxic masculinity. Then 232 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: at some point you're basically condemning a whole group of people. 233 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 3: And if you don't offer anything, why is it surprising 234 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: that they're going to go in a different direction. And 235 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 3: I'm just saying that I want Democrats to be Democrats again. 236 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: There's this thing that's happened that like Republicans have gone 237 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: maga and a bunch of Democrats have become like Republican curious. 238 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: They're like, ah, we could just do this thing that 239 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 3: Republicans used to do back in the eighties and nineties, 240 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: and that's a perfectly great lane. And you're like, no, 241 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 3: but that's not our lane. That's not the thing we're 242 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: supposed to be doing. So I'm just saying, let's let's 243 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 3: let democrats be democrap. 244 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: You don't need to go back to trying to be 245 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: Bill Clinton. I think you know that chapter is closed, 246 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: and yeah, it's time to move forward to your point 247 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: of Okay, but Democrats weren't offering young menic compelling vision, 248 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: or they were explicitly signaling to them that they weren't 249 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: really interested in who they were, their concerns, their grievances, 250 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: some of which are real, some of which are have 251 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: been genmed up by by Republicans. What is it that 252 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: you're offering them? What is your vision? I mean, obviously, 253 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: as a senator, you're one of many. You alone do 254 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: not control the legislative agenda. But what is the vision 255 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: that you have for these young because yeah, I think 256 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: Mega at least offered this idea that you're being oppressed 257 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 2: by women and the woke mob and the elites, and 258 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: we're gonna get you money, right, give you a tax cut. 259 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: Somehow they never quite made sense to me how that 260 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: money was going to appear. But there are promises of 261 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: money and that we're going to make America more traditional 262 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: its values and back when men were in charge, and 263 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: you're going to feel that power and that permission again 264 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: to be who you really are. And obviously, yeah, there 265 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: are a lot of lies baked in there, but that's 266 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: a good story and I can understand why a lot 267 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: of people fell for it. So what's the story that 268 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: you're offering. 269 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: The first one is I'm not going to talk down 270 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: to you, right, Like I've been a young man, I 271 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: know what it's like to be talked down to and I 272 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: know it doesn't really quite work. So I want to 273 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 3: have an honest conversation. Two, I want to talk about 274 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: what masculinity is that doesn't feel shitty. And the Andrew 275 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: Tait version of masculinity is one where you're told that 276 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: the thing about being masculine is that you could put 277 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: down other people. And I come at this, Daniel, as 278 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: a father of daughters, like, I don't want anybody in 279 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: the world thinking that my daughter's success came at the 280 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: cost of theirs, because I know that's just not how 281 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: the world works. And so let's talk about what masculinity means. 282 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: Does it mean that you punch down at people you 283 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 3: perceive to be weaker than you, or does it mean 284 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 3: that you are a promoter and protector and empower of 285 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: other people, that you can do that in a way 286 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 3: where you can live in a society where everybody's got 287 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: a great shot at things and you can still enjoy 288 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: doing the things that you know bros enjoy doing, which 289 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: I enjoy doing all the time. I come at this honestly, like, 290 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: I'm not A lot of democrats are like, let's pretend 291 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: like we like working out. You're like, if you don't 292 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: like working out, don't work out, Like, just be who 293 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 3: you are number one. But I say this is a 294 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: guy who grew up doing the traditional bro things who 295 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: still enjoys doing these things and can demonstrate that, like 296 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: they're not mutually exclusive to having what you do if 297 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 3: you don't my my asking Like I played football in 298 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: high school. I captained my wrestling team and lacrosse team 299 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: and my football team. I played lacrosse in college. I 300 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: work out I mountain bike, Like those are like things 301 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: that bro code. But let's be clear, some of the 302 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 3: like gnarliest lifters I've ever seen in the gym are women, 303 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: like including my own wife, who deadlifts one point five 304 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: x body weight for reps, which I'm just like, that's incredible. 305 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: I saw your bench press three fifteen. Congrats on that. 306 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 3: Thank you. It was interesting, right because it was like 307 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: I hesitated with the idea of doing it in large 308 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 3: part for one reason. Right, there's been this effort to 309 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: make my Republicans, to make Democrats look weak, and for 310 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: most of these Republicans, part of me is like, you know, 311 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: I'm not even close to what my life PR was like. 312 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: I'll never hit my PR again. I was in college 313 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: and it was a lot we'll just say a lot 314 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: more than three fifteen. But part of it is also 315 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: this idea that if you're going to take them on 316 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 3: that point, the best way is to show, not tell, Right, 317 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 3: Like I challenged Donald Trump or frankly any Republican in 318 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: the US Senate on anything, because you guys pretend to 319 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 3: be strong, but it's fickle, and so at some point 320 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: like show not tell. So we were like, all right, 321 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: we're gonna do this video, and I dare you to 322 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 3: come and call me week, especially Dai to come and 323 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: call me a week to my face. I just think 324 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 3: it's important to demonstrate that you don't have to seed 325 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: on strength to be willing to be empathic. Right, those 326 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 3: two things are not It's not a lack of strength 327 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: for which you show empathy for other people. I think 328 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: it's actually deep strength to be able to bring that. 329 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 3: But like, these are things that oftentimes this conversation we've 330 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: had says they code too much as being masculine ergo, 331 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: like these things should be shunned. And I think a 332 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: lot of folks have said no, Like, you can do 333 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: things that you enjoy that build strength, that don't come 334 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: at the cost of someone else's power. And I think 335 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: that is the thing we need to do well. But 336 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: there's something more here which I think is really important 337 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: and I really want to talk through. I think a 338 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 3: lot of the reason that so many young men have 339 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 3: been fed to the likes of an Andrew Tates or 340 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: Jordan Peterson is because they feel really profoundly disempowered in 341 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: their lives. And I actually think we need to talk 342 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 3: about why. And I think it goes back to this 343 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: question of corporations and their power in our society. I 344 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: don't know a young man who doesn't feel like they've 345 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 3: got a really awkward, if exploitative relationship with one of 346 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 3: the following weed porn, video games, sports betting, and if 347 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 3: you think about all of these industries, they are industries 348 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 3: that exist to prey on a risk reward cycle and 349 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 3: dopamine spikes in people's minds, specifically young men's minds. I 350 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 3: got a friend of mine. Our whole relationship like existed 351 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: around watching sports, right, Like our whole relationship consists of 352 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 3: bringing up names of bygone athletes and just talking about 353 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: what they used to do so well, and then pulling 354 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: up their clips on YouTube and watching them like that 355 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: was our whole relationship. And like I know many people 356 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: who have relationships with people like that. This friend of 357 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: mine can't watch sports anymore. And the reason why is 358 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: because no matter where you watch your sports, it has 359 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: become a long ad for sports betting. And this friend 360 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: of mine has problematic gambling, and so he's already almost 361 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: gambled away his whole home and his four oh one 362 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: K and he's like, look, man, I just can't watch 363 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: sports anymore. And I'm like, man, that is so sad, 364 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 3: Like this was a big part of your life, and 365 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: it shouldn't be this hard to turn on ESPN and 366 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: not be fed an ad for something that could have 367 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 3: you losing your home in a month, right, And this 368 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 3: is where we are. And so you've got corporations who 369 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 3: basically are working to write the rules so that they 370 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 3: are deregulated so that they can pray on the dopamine 371 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 3: cycles of young men. And we got to talk about that. 372 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: And look, I'm not for banning any of these things, 373 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: like I think any of these things ought to be 374 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 3: in like one ought to be able to enjoy them 375 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: if they choose. But the idea that you're pushing them 376 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 3: into people's faces and you're not taking on the problematic 377 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 3: nature of some of this is a problem I think 378 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: about like young men that I mentor in their teens, 379 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 3: and the number of them for whom their for you 380 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 3: page on TikTok or Instagram is basically an advertisement for 381 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: some kind of porn. That number zero, Like nobody I 382 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: know doesn't have that. Everybody I know is like, here's 383 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: my for you page, and it's always right a couple 384 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: clicks away from some kind of porn. And I'm just 385 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 3: saying that, like, pornography is a thing that consenting adults 386 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 3: ought to be able to enjoy, but fourteen year olds 387 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 3: and fifteen year olds are not consenting adults. And we 388 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 3: got to talk about the ways that big tech has 389 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: played games around regulation to enable this kind of thing. 390 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 3: And so part of the problem is if your dopamine 391 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 3: cycles are fried by some combination of all of these things, 392 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: and then you feel this empowered in your own life 393 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: because you can't muster the capacity to go and show 394 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 3: up in your life. And then you're online and somebody 395 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 3: like Jordan Peterson is telling you that it's because of 396 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 3: women that you're in this situation. You may just be 397 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 3: liable to believe them. And I just think we got 398 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 3: to have an honest conversation about the way that corporate 399 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: power is being wielded against men's neural transmitters in ways 400 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 3: that leave them disempowered and frankly exploited in their lives. 401 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the sort of the dopamine addict has 402 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: become a figure of the last few years, this idea 403 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: that young men are being bombarded with various addictive services 404 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: through their phones and become dependent on them and then 405 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: retreat from social life and all of the things that 406 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: sort of matter that we would say, oh, this is 407 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: work and relationships and family and friendships and all of 408 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: that kind of receives, and it leaves it very open 409 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: to radicalization as well and susceptible to disinformation. 410 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 3: I want to just make a finer point on this, 411 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: because I think it's easy for us to blame young 412 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 3: men for quote unquote falling into it, right. You know, 413 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 3: it's like how many traps are there? And why is 414 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: it that nobody's actually going after the trap setters? And 415 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: these are simple things about the conversations we ought to 416 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 3: be having about regulation. The reason that we don't do 417 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: it is the same reason that you have, like monopolies 418 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 3: in the meat packing space and why we pay so 419 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: much for meat in this country. It's the same reason 420 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: why we get our paychecks garnished every two weeks and 421 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: four weeks to get insurance that we then have to 422 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: pay again for if we get sick. It's all connected 423 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: to the same issue. And part of the thing I'm 424 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: trying to get people to see is that like you 425 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 3: are taking being taken advantage of, and you've got one 426 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 3: group of people telling you that to be strong, you've 427 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: got to go in same misidigonistic things about women, right 428 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 3: while actually this other group of people are literally exploiting you. 429 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: And I just think that it's important for us to 430 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 3: actually take on the things that are powerful, that are 431 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: disempowering people in their lives. And I want folks to 432 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,959 Speaker 3: be paying attention to those things because those are things 433 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: we can actually take on. You shouldn't have to be 434 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: worried about whether or not you're going to lose your 435 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 3: home in a month because you turn on ESPN. That's 436 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 3: not a thing that should happen in America, and it 437 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: doesn't have to happen. That's a choice we make as 438 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 3: a matter of public policy. 439 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, we made rules about how you could advertise alcohol, 440 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 2: how you can advertise cigarettes, and this is generally accepted. 441 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: Like you can't show someone actually drinking a beer in 442 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: a beer ad on TV. I mean, our cigarette ads, 443 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: I think are pretty much gone, right. I can't think 444 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 2: of anywhere where cigarettes are allowed to be advertised. So 445 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: it's certainly possible as a society to come together and say, Okay, 446 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: if you want to smoke, you can still smoke, but 447 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: we're not going to make it easy to convince new 448 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: people to start doing this because we recognize that this 449 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: is really bad for our society and it's just not 450 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: worth living in a world controlled by these interests. And yeah, 451 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: I think you raise a good point, Like the problem 452 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: is not the individual who falls for these highly engineered 453 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: and well tuned tricks. You have one hundreds thousands of 454 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 2: people whose job it is to make these products attractive 455 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: and to keep your eyeballs glued to the screen. So 456 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: if you aren't able to resist, like, it's because it's 457 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 2: been designed really well. I want to talk a little 458 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: bit about the sense of I guess skepticism among young men, 459 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: particularly around science. This can connect up to climate but 460 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: also things like vaccines and other public health you know 461 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: RFK right now, is doing a number on the on 462 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: America's public health, and I think it speaks to a 463 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 2: larger yeah, skepticism around science and the validity of scientific expertise. 464 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 2: I think young men also maybe feel a little invincible 465 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 2: in a way that as they get older they may 466 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: realize isn't quite so true. But we're living in this 467 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: period where a lot of people don't seem to believe 468 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: in the realities of basic science. And as a doctor, 469 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: I imagine this confounds you. You can't just hit them with 470 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: the facts. It doesn't really work. We've seen this, at 471 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: least in the climate debate, that just trying to prove 472 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: to people, yes, climate change is real, Yes this is 473 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: really happening. When they're climate skeptics, and it's become like 474 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 2: a part of their identity, it's just not something that 475 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: really penetrates. And I think you've probably experienced this with 476 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: people who have vaccine hesitancy or now anti vaxxers, that 477 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: once this becomes like an article of faith, it's very 478 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: difficult to dislodge. And Yeah, I think all of these 479 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 2: are interrelated in the sense that they really put the 480 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: bonus on the individual and say like it's up to 481 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: you to make yourself healthy, and that you're someone who 482 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: deals with public health. 483 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: Look, I think it's important to understand what some of 484 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 3: these more dangerous ideas swim with. And what I mean 485 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: by that is, usually we pay attention to, oh wow, 486 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: there's a lot more vaccine hesitancy, if not frank vaccine 487 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 3: denihilism out there. But ask yourself what waters they swim with. 488 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 3: It's usually this MAHA pilled make America healthy again pilled, 489 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: which on its face is insane because America is about 490 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 3: as nearly healthy as it's ever been, just if you 491 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 3: look at the statistics. But the whole idea of MAHA 492 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: is there's a couple of things that you can do 493 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 3: to protect yourself from any and all diseases. You don't 494 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 3: need any of these other things, and these are all 495 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 3: grifts to take advantage of you. That's the frame. And 496 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: so usually it's not the vaccine denihilism that is itself enticing. 497 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,959 Speaker 3: It's this idea that you are the captain of your 498 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 3: own ship and the captain of your own destiny, and 499 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: if you just do these things, you can protect yourself 500 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 3: from everything. Right, And it's the same people who are 501 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 3: telling you that somehow beef tallow is a healthy thing, 502 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: like no beef tallo is just another version of fat, 503 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 3: in fact, probably a less healthy version of fat than 504 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: the one they told you was so unhealthy. That's the 505 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: same people who tell you that because they made the 506 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 3: change in the sweetener in coca cola, that somehow now 507 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 3: coca cola is a healthy drink. No. Look, if it's 508 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 3: cane sugar or hyphroctose corn syrup, neither of them are 509 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 3: particularly healthy for you. This is a marginal difference. And 510 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 3: they tell you that if you. 511 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 4: Get yourself sugar, does you taste a little bit better? 512 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 4: I think it tastes better, And look, it does taste better, 513 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 4: but it's not better for you. If we got rid 514 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: of the ultra processed forms of sugar, I think we'd 515 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 4: be marginally better off. But do not pretend that because 516 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 4: you made it cane sugar, that the two hundred and 517 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 4: forty calories in your twenty ounce coke are somehow not 518 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 4: two hundred and forty calories of sugar anymore. 519 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: Like they're just sugar. But like this idea that you 520 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: can be the agent of your own future and that 521 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 3: you don't have to worry, it's enticing. But it's like 522 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: a form of it's a form of ostriching. Right, It's 523 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 3: like you are being intentionally ignorant to things that are 524 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: outside of the degree of your control. And the one 525 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: point I always make the folks is actually, like the 526 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: man flu, I'm like, you know this idea of the 527 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 3: man flu, right, if there is some evidence to suggest 528 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 3: that in younger men influenza is more severe, and the 529 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: reason why is actually because you have a very intensely 530 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: tuned immune system, and it's the immune response to the 531 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 3: influenza that is so extreme that then causes the kind 532 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: of death. And there are a bunch of hypotheses about 533 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic. It killed a lot of 534 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: young men. Part of that is because young men were 535 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: concentrated in the barracks during World War One, but part 536 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 3: of that may actually be that it was just more 537 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 3: severe among young men. And so part of me says, okay, 538 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: so like, you go, you work out, you run, you lift, 539 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 3: you become very healthy, and now you've got an extremely 540 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 3: robust immune system, and now you get the flu, and 541 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: now your flu is so much worse because of all 542 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: the amazing workouts that you did, so it just so 543 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 3: happens that I'm not going to tell you to stop 544 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: working out. Yes, in general, you should do this thing. 545 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: But what that tells you is if there is an 546 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 3: added thing you can do to stop yourself from getting 547 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 3: the flu, maybe you should do that. Shit Like it 548 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: should be kind of obvious, right, And so there's this 549 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: idea that somehow I can do I can control everything 550 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 3: about what happens to me, and that is a fallacy 551 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 3: of modernity. That's just not how the world works. And 552 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 3: so I think we need to start breaking that down, 553 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 3: which is to say, hey, I look at I understand 554 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,239 Speaker 3: why you get some security and thinking. I do all 555 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 3: the right things, I eat all the right foods, I 556 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: do all the right workouts. Ergo, I'm going to protect myself. 557 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 3: But I want you to ask yourself big picture questions 558 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 3: about the things you can't control, like the weather or 559 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: the climate, or whether or not you get infected or 560 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: exposed to flu or covid. And so there are other 561 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 3: things that you want to do and live in a 562 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 3: society that do for you, so that you can be 563 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 3: protected against these things should they happen. 564 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also that you have a responsibility to other people. 565 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 2: I think that was one of the things I saw 566 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: in COVID. My wife has a suppresed immune system, and 567 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: I was pretty aware of the risks that we were 568 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: living with and what could happen to her if I 569 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: got sick or if she got sick. And it was interesting. 570 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: It seemed like very early on the manosphere got really 571 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: restless with the idea of vaccine one getting vaccines, but 572 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 2: two just the restrictions and having to wear a mask 573 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: and not being able to do the things you want 574 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: to do. And I think that there was a sense 575 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: of I should be able to do me, bro, and 576 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: what do my actions have to do with you? Like 577 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: they don't affect you? And there was this real kind 578 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: of denial of the relationship between oneself and other people. 579 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: And I think that was something that that has only 580 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: gotten stronger and intensified in the following years. It used 581 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: to be an important part of traditional masculinity. It was 582 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: this idea that like, hey, you have a duty to 583 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: other people, Like you're part of a community. You're not 584 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: just out there like self maximizing. 585 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I think this is the to go 586 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 3: back to the point about labeling all masculinity as toxic. 587 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: Is like we have inadvertently made the stereotype of masculinity 588 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 3: toxic because we haven't presented an alternative form of maxeculinity 589 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: that is not toxic. And that point that you made 590 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: about duty and about empowerment and about protection, I think 591 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: that's a really important part of a more like benevolent 592 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: mass sculinity, and I think we need to be punching 593 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: that up now. The zeitgeist has basically said that because 594 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: all masculinity is toxic, ergo, we're going to get rid 595 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: of all masculinity. And I think we missed the opportunity 596 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: to say, actually, the masculinity I grew up with was 597 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: one where you are someone who takes the risk first, 598 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: but you always eat last, in the sense that you 599 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 3: protect resources and you protect for the people who have 600 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 3: to come first. And that part of it I think 601 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 3: we've lost because we've basically labeled all masculinity is toxic. 602 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: I would much more have wanted to be able to say, actually, no, 603 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 3: don't be an asshole. This is extremely selfish behavior, and 604 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: it's small and it's petty, and it's unbecoming of the 605 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 3: way that I understand masculinity. It's unmanly to be this way, 606 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 3: and I think in a lot of cultures if you 607 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: said that, you would be making a very powerful argument, right, 608 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: And a lot of folks would say no. It's my 609 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 3: duty to people who don't have the same strength or 610 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 3: capacity that I do to make sure that I'm doing 611 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: the things to protect them right in the society, because 612 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 3: part of my identity is as a protector and as 613 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: an empower and I think we've lost that, and I 614 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 3: think we've lost that to some really detrimental consequences. 615 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: You've been traveling all around your campaign, is it a 616 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: full gear? What have you in your experiences with the 617 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: citizens of your state and voters like? What have you 618 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: been learning along the way? Democrats are all trying to 619 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: crack the same code right now for twenty twenty six, 620 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 2: and means for some of them the answer is just 621 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: shoot a video and edit it like Zoron, But I 622 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: think others are going a little bit deeper and trying 623 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: to actually incorporate some real changes in voter sentiment and 624 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: understand how people are feeling. What are you like sharing 625 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: with your fellow Democrats who are trying to reach those 626 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: same suspected young men who are maybe not quite cracking 627 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: the code, yet be who you are. 628 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: I just think when I ran in twenty eighteen, I 629 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: was always being coached around. I literally member of people 630 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 3: have being like, oh, your bro is showing I was like, oh, okay, 631 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: let me interested. And this time around, I'm like, you 632 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 3: know what I am? Who I am. I've always been 633 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 3: who I am. My challenge has never been that I 634 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 3: don't know who I am. And I just want folks 635 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 3: to be authentically who you are, because I think if 636 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: you can be who you are, even if you know 637 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 3: you don't code in one way or another, I think 638 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: people will respect and appreciate what you can bring to 639 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 3: the table. And I think, more than anything, what people 640 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 3: have a very high intolerance for right now is bullshit. 641 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: If I think you're pretending to be like me, or 642 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: you're pretending to say things that you know you think 643 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 3: I'm going to like to hear, people can see through it. 644 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: I think one of the consequences of modernity is that 645 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 3: we're always being fed like now it's like truly ai slop, 646 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 3: like inauthentic junk. And I think we've gotten really good 647 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 3: at looking for the things that are real, and I 648 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: just think it's really incumbent on politicians to be as 649 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: real as they are, and I think leaning into the 650 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 3: things that make you who you are and bringing people 651 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 3: into that part of life is important. But there's another 652 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 3: piece of that, which is you've got to be willing 653 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 3: to be vulnerable. And I think to the point that 654 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 3: we've been circling around here, one of the things about 655 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 3: masculinity that I think has been a real challenge is 656 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 3: that a lot of the way we've been taught has 657 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: been to hide your vulnerability, right, Like men no cry right. 658 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 3: And I just think that right now, this is a 659 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 3: moment to be willing to be vulnerable, to be able 660 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 3: to let people in and recognize that some people are 661 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: gonna be asholes about it and that's okay, Like it's 662 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: just part of the process. And I think when you 663 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 3: decide to put yourself out there, what you are signing 664 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 3: up for is a willingness to be vulnerable with people. 665 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: But if you're willing to show them that vulnerability, I 666 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: think the vast majority of people will embrace it and 667 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 3: appreciate it. And also what happens is you can unlock 668 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 3: their ability to be vulnerable for themselves, because at the 669 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 3: end of the day, our argument is the world is 670 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 3: an imperfect place and there's a lot of things that 671 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: could be fixed, and it takes us being willing to 672 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 3: admit that there's a challenge in a problem rather than 673 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 3: pretend that no, we're all good, that we actually can 674 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 3: only solve together. That requires us to be vulnerable about 675 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 3: how those problems affect us. And so if you want 676 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 3: to be somebody who is a leader to solve those problems, 677 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 3: you better lead first with your own vulnerability. And so 678 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 3: I just think that being able to do that thing 679 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 3: of putting yourself out there, it makes the argument that 680 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 3: needs to be made because people just see it and 681 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 3: it's like show don't tell. 682 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: Doctor bel say. Thank you so much for coming on 683 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: the show. It was a pleasure to get to talk 684 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 2: to you. And here's some of your insights. I wish 685 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: you luck on this campaign. I know it's going to 686 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,479 Speaker 2: be a long marathon. Thank you again. 687 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 3: Appreciate you, thanks for having me. 688 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: I have a good rest here to day. I'm sure 689 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 2: there's plenty of more campaigning today. 690 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 3: We're just getting started. 691 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: Man. Carbon Bros. 692 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 5: Is an original series from Drill and Non Toxic, written 693 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 5: by me Amy. 694 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 2: Westervelt and by me Daniel Penny. 695 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 5: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin Zoldsaus. He 696 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 5: also composed our theme song, Check A stuff Out. 697 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Peter Duff. Fact checking by Shilba Jindia. 698 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 2: Original artwork by Matthew Fleming. 699 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheedon with the First 700 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: Amendment Project. Marketing by Maggie Taylor. Check out the Non 701 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: Toxic Podcast 702 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 5: For more on the manos here, and go to Drill 703 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 5: Dot Media for more climate recording and to support our work.