WEBVTT - #140 Jason Flom and Michael Rubin with Meek Mill 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:04.600 On January twenty third, two thousand and seven, in order 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.720 to obtain a search warrant, a narcotics officer claimed to 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.479 have seen Meek mill selling crack out of his home. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.720 The following day, Meek was stopped on his way to 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.200 a corner store and they found a gun. He was 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.439 badly beaten, arrested for illegal possession of a firearm, and 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.560 later charged with assaulting arresting officers who claimed that he 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.319 had pointed the gun at them. In two thousand and eight, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.200 due to the cost, Meek waved a jury trial, was 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.080 tried for drug and weapons charges and sentenced to two 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.000 years prison plus eight years probation, which kicked off his 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.680 storied clash with Judge Denise Sprinkley. Over the decade that followed, 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:47.000 parole tight restrictions and his contentious relationship with Brinkley made 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:52.400 more punishment almost an inevitability. In November of twenty seventeen, 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.480 she sentenced him to at least two more years in 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:01.040 prison for alleged violations, including popping a wheelie without a helmet. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.000 This gained plenty of outrage and public support, largely due 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:10.120 to a police department whistleblower who exposed Meeks two thousand 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:13.280 and seven arresting officer as a liar and a thief. 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.200 His two thousand and eight conviction was overturned. He was 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.039 granted a new trial under a new judge, bringing his 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.760 two thousand and seven criminal case and probation to a 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:29.240 long overdue close in August of twenty nineteen. However, his 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.880 litigation was still ongoing at the time of this episode's 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.480 original release. Meek Mills' notoriety shines a light on the 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.600 regularity legalized harassment by authorities and the recidivism that results. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.720 A docuseries chronicling his legal saga called Free Meek, is 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.640 now streaming on Prime Video, and Meek's friend Michael Rubin, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.240 one of the owners of Philadelphia seventy six ers, joined 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.640 us for a discussion that unfortunately is as relevant. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:02.040 Today as it was back then. This is Wrongful Conviction 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:18.359 with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.680 That's me and today we have an extraordinary show and 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.600 you're about to find out why today's guest is the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.960 one and only Meek Milly and Michael Rubin is with 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.960 him and Meek. You need no introduction, but welcome to 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:34.400 the show. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.560 Yeah, thanks for having me Man. I appreciate you for 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:37.520 bringing me on the show. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:39.440 I appreciate all the work you're doing, and we're going 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.520 to get into that right away. But with him is 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.000 Michael Rubin, who is the owner of this Philadelphia seventy 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:50.720 six ers and has an amazing background as an entrepreneur 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:55.239 and businessman, but who has become a tremendous advocate for 0:02:55.320 --> 0:03:00.400 criminal justice reform and is about to really shake things up. Michael, 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:01.920 I'm thrilled to have you in the movement, and I'm 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:02.800 glad you're here on the show. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.000 Hey, thanks for everything you're doing. I'm glad to be here. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.800 So Meek. One of the reasons I wanted to have 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.520 you on the show is because your original case was 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.840 in fact a wrongful conviction, and that's something a lot 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.000 of people don't understand. And there's a lot more they 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:26.160 don't understand about the circumstances in which you were arrested 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.440 and how this nightmare saga, which is now in its 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:36.240 second decade in the criminal justice system has unfolded. And 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.960 it's important to tell this story because it shines a 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:46.920 light on so many aspects of what's wrong with the 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:51.680 criminal justice system. And we're here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, not Philadelphia, Mississippi. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.480 But even still, the system here has been so backwards 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.680 for so long, and you were born right into the 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.080 thick of it. I mean, let's talk about that y 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.920 nineteen eighty seven. So the number of people incarcerated United 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:08.080 States stayed relatively constant from nineteen hundred till about nineteen seventy, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.280 and then it went crazy. It doubled and tripled and quadrupled, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.200 and Philadelphia was a hot spot. And you were born 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.719 into a situation in which black men were being incarcerated 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.800 at rates that were unprecedented actually in the history of 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.239 the world. There's a book that really touches on everything 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.960 that you went through, called On the Run by Alice Goffman, 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.159 a Princeton PhD. Sociologist who went and lived on Sixth 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:37.800 Street in Philadelphia. She said, in the first eighteen months 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.320 that I spent the neighborhood, at least once a day, 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.760 I watched the police stop pedestrians or people in cars, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.560 searched them, run their name for warrants, asked them to 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.120 come in for questioning or make an arrest. And that 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.440 same eighteen month period, I watched the police breakdown doors, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.440 search houses, and question, arrest or chase people through houses 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.000 fifty two times. Nine times police her helicopters circled overhead 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.520 and beam search lights on the local streets. I noticed 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.120 blocks taped off in traffic directed as police search for 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.800 evidence fourteen times during my first eighteen months of near 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.880 daily observation, I watched the police punch, choke, kick, stomp on, 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.800 or beat young men with their night sticks. That's what 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.039 the situation was like. It's what it still is like, 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.440 and that's what has to change. Yeah, can you talk 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.480 about that about how you grew up and how this, 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.039 you know, was almost almost a fade of complete Uh. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:28.240 You know, I come from Philadelphia, actually North Philadelphia which 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.919 now is called the Temple Area, and you know, we 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:36.240 grew up in environments where like dragonfest environments where a 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.560 lot of violence, a lot of drugs, a lot of 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.279 things taking place. So it's like you could be standing 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.400 in the wrong place and lose your life, or you 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.640 could be standing in the wrong place and get charged 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.440 with a crime you didn't do. That was just like normal. Actually, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.760 I've been hanging with my friend pe Mind probably fifteen 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.520 years and I remember back he went to jail when 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.599 he was probably about fifteen years old. He just turned 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.680 thirty one, and was like, yeah, the first time I 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.640 went to prison, he said, a white guy just pulled 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:04.800 up in the back of a car and just pointed 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.320 at me out the car and said, I robbed him 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.400 for seven dollars, but he had three hundred and eighty 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.719 dollars in his pocket and he went to jail for that. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.720 He ended up doing I think like two years and 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.320 that in the juvenile facility. But that wasn't the worst part. 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.200 The worst part was he's got a felony on this 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.080 record for arm robbery. And you know, if you know him, 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.920 he not like a it's not robbery. He's not robbery. 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.800 And his system he made mistakes in his life. But 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:32.400 me being around him, I never knew that. But I 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.800 witnessed that so many times. I wouldn't have standing on 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.719 a corner and the cop pulled up with a Mexican 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.359 guy in the back, and I don't know. Sometimes we 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.160 say and then our world in a sycastic way of 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.480 being funny, we always be like white people look the 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.600 same to us. Some of my white friends were like 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.279 all black people were saying to us. But sometimes that 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.080 is the case with people and they just pull up 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.760 and they point people out, and you stand there when 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.719 the cops pull up and like, I hope this guy 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.359 don't point me out. And that's just one of the 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.839 scenarios out of a million scenarios, being caught in the 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.920 middle of poverty, drug infested the neighborhood where people are 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.160 getting robbed left and right, where you know, cop flocking 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.000 people who have left and rights just to get stripes 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:18.640 on that record. You know what I'm saying. And we 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.800 grew up in that and you know, at eighteen years old, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.720 I was caught up in that system. And even though 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.840 I've been on the path ever since of doing spectacling 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.880 in my life from where I come from, that same 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.440 system is still haunting me and hanking me down. Even 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.360 at the age of thirty one and having a record 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.360 deal and being able to handle business and work, it's 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.240 still haunted me to pull me back to the same 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.240 system where I just left eleven years ago. 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.720 And you just brought up a very important point, which 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.720 is that we know from decades of research now that 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:56.520 cross racial identifications are extremely unreliable. Identifications in general are 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.640 unreliable because people have witness a crime, especially violent crime, 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.840 goes crazy and the perception gets screwy and the brain 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.880 doesn't function properly, so it almost becomes like guessing. But 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.240 it gets even worse. And there's a movement now in 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.240 various places to try to put in a system where 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.320 a jury has to be instructed in the case in 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:20.720 which across racial identification is an important factor that these 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.200 things are as unreliable as they are because they need 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.640 to know, but in most cases they don't know. They 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.680 just think an identification is the most powerful thing. Going 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:28.880 to court room to a guy points at you and 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.720 goes that to him. You know, it's hard for a 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:31.720 jury to see past that. 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.040 Yeah, it's like it's a neighborhood. We all wearing white 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.040 Teas of the summer of two thousand and three, everybody 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.440 white T shirts is the popular thing to wear denim shirts. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:43.680 And you got a guy, he might be Asian. He 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.240 pulled up on the corner. We all seven of us 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.280 got braids, and four of us got a little cousin. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.000 But we all look the same, the ones that got 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.320 braids to him. It's just you allowed to repick to 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.640 get caught up in the system like whoever you point at, 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.280 that's you. And you better hope you don't have no 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.480 felonies on your record already because you might go to 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:01.520 jail for a long time. 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.880 And sociologically speaking, and this goes back again to the 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.679 seventies and eighties. Right at the same time that they 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.920 were rolling back welfare and other programs for the urban poor, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.560 they were ramping up the policing and they were Now 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.800 you created the perfect storm because what was happening was 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.199 you had these systems coming in for tracking arrests. You 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.160 had so many more cops. In fact, I think in 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.640 Philadelphia sixty nine percent more police decade over decade than 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.160 they were before, and they had to make arrests. So 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.840 whereas before they were largely ignoring what was going on 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:38.160 in the community, now there were heightened penalties for not 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:40.719 just for violent crimes, but also for all kinds of 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.680 different drug crimes, for vagrancy, for trespassing, for anything. And 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:46.920 they were in a position where they were arresting people 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.160 left and right and creating this permanent underclass. And Michael, 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.320 you know, obviously you grew up here too, right, but 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.240 your situation must have been. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.920 Very, very different world. I grew up maybe twenty minutes 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:00.800 from me. But Mike Ustall said to me, we used 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.520 to have this argument for years. He'd say to me, Michael, 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.640 there's two Americans. And I'd be like, like, dude, shut up, 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.160 there's like there's there's one America. Like stop, you know, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.559 like you're doing great, Like you know, I didn't understand, 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.000 like what are you telling me about these two worlds? 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.000 We live in one great country and and you know, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.280 we'd argue about it all the time. And I remember 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.880 the day that that meet got sentenced November six, twenty seventeen. 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.840 He called me from the Philadelphia job before they transferred 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:24.520 to a different Jennal and they said, he said, you see, 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.360 I told you this is what happens to the black 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.600 people on that oade, right, And I just like that, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.760 you know, I said you were right, I was wrong, 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.040 and there is two worlds. And you know, for me, 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:37.480 November six, twenty seventeen was really a life change in moment, 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.080 because I would never have been able to understand who 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.480 really believe And I don't think anybody would be able 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.360 to believe how crazy a circumstance he was living in 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.640 because it didn't seem possible until you sat in the courtroom. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:52.960 And even people that have come to later court hearings 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.200 of Judge Brinkley have said, I've heard everything about this, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.040 but I didn't believe it until I actually saw it, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.800 and it's so crazy. So for sure, I grew up 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.520 in a completely different environment. But Meek always told me 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.480 from the day I met him. I remember we were 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.319 at a NBA All Star game, and you know, within 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.720 a few minutes, you know, Meek realized I was involved 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.760 with the Philadelphia seventy six ers and was telling me 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.920 a little bit about his background. He told me that 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.640 he was charged for pointing a gun at multiple cops. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.839 And he said to me, like, you know, I didn't 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:22.240 do that. 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:23.640 If I pointed, you know, a. 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.240 Gun at multiple cops, I'd be dead. Like I heard him, 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.040 but I didn't really comprehend it. And then like, if 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.840 I've told that story to five hundred people in the 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:38.640 last seven months, every person from law enforcement to politics, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.439 to anyone who understands anything, they all say the same thing. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.360 He's right, he'd be dead. No one would pull a 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.920 gun on multiple cops and not get shot. And Meek 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.320 can't obviously talk about the case, because the case is 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:53.520 still unfortunately going on, which is crazy in itself sense, right, 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.640 But I mean you're talking about a guy who was 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.720 wrongfully convicted when he was eighteen years old of a 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.280 crime that he didn't commit. It's been sent back to 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.000 jail multiple times, never committed a new crime, and he's 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.480 the perfect example of someone who's been stuck in a 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.040 completely broken criminal justice system for. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:10.880 Criming to commit. 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.719 And it's now thirteen years later and it's still going on, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.080 and that shows how broken the criminal justice system is. 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.200 It's incredible. You know, we have two point two million 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.199 people in prison in America and including jail. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.400 Another four and a half million people on probation in parole. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.000 Yeah, I mean the latest figure I heard was four 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.600 point eight, right, And once we accept those figures, you 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.720 also have to accept the fact that we now have, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.680 between jail, prison, probation, and parole, we have more black 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.480 people with mostly men, under criminal justice supervision in America 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.960 than all the slaves at the height of slavery in 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.800 America in the eighteen fifties or sixties whatever that was. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.839 What are we doing? Well, It's like Michelle Alexander says, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:53.640 is the new Jim Crow. 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:58.520 What words can't explain is Meek is still on probation 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.880 for something that we've already said he didn't do, and 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.520 it's been going on for thirteen years from the original 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.320 wrongful conviction. But he can't, like you can't live that way. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.080 Like I say, I joke with him, I feel like 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.520 I'm on probation because I'm worried about. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:13.320 Just something going wrong with him. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.040 If he decides to leave a state a day early 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.360 because something changed with the schedule, or he gets you know, 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:19.800 someone says, hey, I'm going to pay you to go 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:21.080 do this contract. I want to go, and I have 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.440 the proper days of permission, the judge will try to 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.559 violate him. I mean, it's the system is chasing him 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.040 and trying to violate and that's not what probation is 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.120 supposed to be about, rehabilitating somebody, not trying to catch 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.120 them and send that back to prison. And something that 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.600 someone told me recently, and you know, I've now become 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.280 too familiar with this, but seventy percent of people to 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:40.920 go back to jail once they've been in jail in 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.800 prison are going back for technical probation violations. Like to me, 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:47.640 virtually none of those people should be going. 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:48.319 You know, you had a. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.840 Technical probation violation, right, he didn't commit a crime, You 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.560 were late for your probation officer. You you know, didn't 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.040 pay a certain amount of money. You know, you travel 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:57.560 out of the state. You know he went to his 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.240 son in New Jersey because he lives in Pennsylvania. And 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:01.880 you can be violated and sent back to jail. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:02.840 This is lunacy. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.520 This is absolute lunacy. And I want, I'm really glad 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.040 you brought that up, Michael, because I don't want to 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.360 get your take on this week because in a lot 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.240 of the reforms that are underway right now, there's this 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.240 hidden caveat or this hidden nightmare i'll call it, of 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.640 enhanced probation and other ways of the government keeping people 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.800 under control. So to me, a true crime reform bill 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.240 should eliminate those problems. And you obviously can speak firsthand 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.640 about just how restrictive that is, and Michael has said 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.360 very eloquently, when you have seventy percent of people going 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.080 back to jail or prison because they have some technical violation, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.600 that's insane. Right. Can you talk about that? Because I'm 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.120 very concerned that they're sneaking these devils into the details 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.960 in these new crime bills that are going to allow 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.000 them to maintain this control. There's no other way to 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.680 look at it. Over millions of people's lives, and there's 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.520 a profit center in that for a lot of people too. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.600 Yeah, is more saying to me, I take it as 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:03.680 deep as like he said, I could go see my 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.720 son in New Jersey and actually be locked in a 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.880 cage and be locked and changed shackle from like angle 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:10.600 to feet. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.920 For the crime of going from Pennsylvania to New. 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:13.960 Jersey to see your son. 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.520 That's what I'm saying. I'm being facetious. Yeah, for the 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:17.440 crime in quotes. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.960 Yeah, I'll tell you this right now. 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.920 Judge Brinkley is dying to do that too. She's trying 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.560 to right now today, I promise you. She's sitting in 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.400 her house obsessed about how she can figure out how 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.320 to put them back in jail for nothing. And he 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:33.920 can't talk about that, but I can't. I'm telling you 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:35.160 straight up, that's what's going on. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.440 It's it's really bizarre. I mean, as a country, why 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.080 would we want I mean, these are our tax dollars, right, 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.080 and it hurts the average taxpayer, even if you're somebody 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.360 who's not particularly concerned about criminal justice reform, or you 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:51.960 think a lot of people or you maybe you think 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.960 you're tough on crime or whatever. It might be. The 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.520 money that's being spent to lock people like you meek 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.640 up right and to keep you under supervision and this 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:09.920 bloated and draconian system is pure insanity. I mean that 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.040 money could be spent. I mean, I know that at 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.840 one time eight bonaire, eight billionaire at one time. I 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:16.240 don't even know if it's still true. But a few 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.040 years ago I checked in California, which a lot of 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.160 people think was in a progressive state, was spending more 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.240 money locking people up than they were educating people. We 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.800 have fact check that, but it's absolutely staggering. And the 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.320 crazy thing is these are Americans. There are fellow people, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.120 you know, I say the politicians when I talk to him, Like, 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.440 you know, if another country treated our people the way 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.320 we treat our people, we'd invade this stuff. 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.040 We wouldn't even do to our pets, you know what 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.080 I'm saying, Like you wouldn't lock your pet in the 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.400 metal cell. For Sometimes we get locked in and I 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.400 say we because I've been through this experience so many times, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.960 and like sometimes we get locked in a room for 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.960 twenty three hours a day for a month or two weeks, 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.480 some people actually even years. You know what I'm saying. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.080 It's like they say, when you come home, it's a 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.480 violation to be around felons. How is it a violation 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.520 to be around felons when you just had me locked 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.800 up amongst thousands of felons? Like what rule is this? 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.880 I'm glad you brought that up too, because that's another 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.960 thing that creates this visious story. 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.439 Ex's by the way you think about it. In the 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.480 environment you grew up, what percentages of people that. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.160 Live on your block have had a felony? 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:23.600 Ninety five percent? 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:25.560 Right, So what you're saying is essential family. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.040 Anyone can put you back in prison because there's a 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:30.879 rule that says you can't be around felons, but everyone 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.280 you grew up with has a felony. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.560 If somebody really made that an issue, I would probably 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.200 go to jail any day. Because if I go to 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.880 the studio with a rapper and we make a song, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:40.480 I don't know his record, but. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.439 Right you don't know, how would you know? You have 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.480 to have a like a database that we do at 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.120 all times. Most people can't afford that. I mean, you're 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:49.920 not going to do it. In the fact is, I'm just 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.480 quoting a statistic here. One in four black children born 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.120 in nineteen ninety had an imprisoned father by the time 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.639 he or she turned fourteen. Yeah, right, And the numbers 0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:59.679 just get worse and worse. I mean, thirty percent of 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.480 black man without college educations today will have been to 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.280 prison by their men thirties and spent up to a 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.800 year in prison thirty percent. Yeah, I mean that's without 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.040 college educations. And the numbers go to sixty percent when 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.480 you look at black males without high school educations. Yeah, 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.760 sixty percent of black males out a high school education 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.360 was better a year in prison or jail before their 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.080 thirtieth birthday? What are we doing? And the fact is 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.720 it's actually impossible to succeed, which is why I'm always 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.879 amazed when somebody does come from the background that you 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.120 came from and make it, because with that cycle, how 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.760 do you do it? They've created a minefield that you 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.479 can't walk through. Right, once you get arrested, You're going 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.360 to get re arrested no matter what you do. Pretty much, Yeah. 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.040 One hundred percent, and like me and Mike, we just 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.280 spend the hour, Mike just teaching me about financial stuff 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.520 and like texts and things that. Like when we're growing 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.560 up from like age thirteen to twenty years old, we 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.199 probably invest ninety five percent of our thinking time in 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.720 the how to so in these type of conditions because 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.600 it's like almost impossible to survive. So like you got 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.800 to put like your awe into how this even my 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.600 mind frame now, I still like even though I travel 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.919 the world, it's still installed in my mind. It's still 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.959 like something that is like I might come into a 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.640 certain situation in a certain area and I go into 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.280 survival move and I have to double back, and like 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:23.680 this is not even that type of environment. Well, I 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.600 don't live this type of life anymore, but it's just 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.480 always installed inside my head, you know what I'm saying. 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.399 And coming from environments like that, like you said sixty 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.119 percent where I come from, it feels like it's ninety. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:39.159 Like do that count death death is going to they 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.520 probably go up to probably ninety five percent young black 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.240 men being murdered going to prison probably sixty plus another 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:47.119 thirty five percent. 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:49.159 Mick, I've heard you talk about this. 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.280 You know, how many people do you know that you 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:53.919 were close with it, you had a real relationship with 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:55.480