WEBVTT - Ep. 209: The Deer Nut 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.679 All right, suckers, We've been talking all the time about 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.960 our our live tour me Cal Yanni, A lot of 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:10.000 special guests, live tour coming up. Everything's sold out. We've 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.240 got two dates left. Got a lock at home April fifteen. 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.720 In April sixteen, April fifteen, Masa Arts Center, Mace, Arizona. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:22.160 So it's like your Phoenix Market April sixteen, City National Grove, Anaheim, California. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.800 Again Me the Lavine Eagle O cal Special guests, Me 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:33.360 Eater Live April fifteen, Masa Arts Center, Mace, Arizona, April sixteen, 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.840 City National Grove, Anaheim, California. Get your tickets. Let's finish 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:47.520 this thing up. This is me Eat. Your podcast coming 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.960 at you shirtless, severely, vot bitten and in my case, 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:57.120 underwear listening Hunt podcast, you can't partake anything presented by 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.800 on X. Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.920 system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.480 or Google play store. Nor where you stand with on X. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.760 I think listeners ought to know that that phild engineer 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.640 has uh, he's gotta like he's not good at starting 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.840 that timer. You might have to go back behind the curtain. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.040 You might have to go back into the might have 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:31.320 to go back into the back into the resumes. We're 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.640 just talking about mountainlins and calsambo. What a mountline does 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.880 when it drops down into like a pen full alloments. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.480 If I was a mountainlined, I would be allowed with specialists. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:44.640 That big neck, hard hard to miss. You could be drunk, 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.160 a drunk cap, get drunk, no matter what. You're gonna 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.000 get it with the net with the neck like that, 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:53.880 That's what I would be a I would be allowed 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.480 with specialist mountainlin. Yeah, they really like to keep their 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:01.280 heads high too. Would I would quickly depopulate the nation. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:06.640 Would be a lama uh and epidemic of a llama 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.000 losses uh. A couple of things, do you I don't 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:12.560 know if you guys. There's a couple of news things 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.079 I want to talk about before we before we get 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.200 into it. Um that's gotta be. I haven't like dug 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.680 into this yet, but Disney's redoing they're doing I don't know, 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:26.840 they're doing a live action Bambi remake. I was told 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:33.240 about this yesterday. I believe man um live action, So 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.080 it's gonna be like you know that that's that's stupid 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.520 thing they did with the lions talking like people. Yes, 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:46.079 they're lion king. Real showed me the intro to the 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.440 lion King deal and then he explained that it is. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.880 They didn't variate or they didn't vary the story at all. 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.680 It's the exact same story from the animated the full 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.679 animated version. Yeah, but it's just like actual lions being like, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:02.280 what's up man? Phil called it derbank, So that's gonna 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.360 be like a buck anna be like, well, it's tough, man, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.120 because you got these these lions, you know, voiced by humans, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.639 but with absolutely no human facial expressions. Just it's yeah, 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:18.560 but I mean, deer is decidedly less. A deer is 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:25.280 decidedly less, uh sort of facially active, So it's gonna 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.760 be even worse than the lions. I hope there's a 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:29.840 part of that movie where, um you ever see the 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.880 trail camp footage of deer eating baby birds out of nest. 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.240 I hope that's part of the movie. That would be 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.200 a good part of the movie. Um, I would kill 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.760 to be. I've helped out in in the movie world 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.440 on on one script as far as like hunting accuracies 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:56.160 and it's something you did some consulting. Yeah, the Last 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.200 of the Mohicans. No, it was The Revenant, all the 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.600 Walking Out, yeah, which I was all excited for me 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.320 because I was if you didn't with any of old movies, 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:12.720 I was gonna smack you VIP resumes. Uh yeah, but 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.600 that was for for my buddy Collin helping him. And 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:20.719 it's just like this dude like a horse dude. No, 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.720 he's not a horse dude. It was up in Whitefish. Yeah, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:25.800 he's a white Fish Guy's not a horse dude. A 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:27.839 little bit like a wrangler. He used to wrangle horses 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.000 for movies. No, he just kind of looks like that 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.400 type of person though you met him once anyway, Well, 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.359 I met a dude one's named that who was a 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.960 horse wrangler for movies. Oh no, I lived up in 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.200 that neck of the woods. No. I always call this 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.840 guy a young McConaughey because just because it was hair 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.520 more than anyway. No different guys. Yeah, but the movie 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:53.360 world just they fight so hard against reality. Oh yeah, 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.800 Like it's just they'd want no part of it. You know. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.000 Did you see that thing I did that g Q breakdown? 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.640 That was fantastic, So like GQ, Like GQ magazine, they 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.200 have this thing they do the breakdown, so you can 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.800 go watch like a Navy seal breaking down Navy seal 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.640 scenes and movies. There's a chef breaking down cooking scenes 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.120 and movies. There's no, no, no, no, there's many of them. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.440 Alex Donold the Climber breaks down climbing scenes and movies. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.400 I didn't want to breaking down tracking and hunting scenes 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.520 and movies. And leading up to what I was talking 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:24.440 to someone and I was like, man, why don't these 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.400 movie people like, why don't they hire a guy to 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:29.719 come in and be like no, no, no no, no, no, no, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.719 you know, you should make it like this. That'll seem 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.359 more real. And he said, oh, they do. They just 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.360 don't listen to him. They like to have him around 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.880 just you know, just to be like, oh, man, I 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:44.479 wouldn't do it like that. You know what, you know, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:50.279 you don't got a tape here with a machete. And 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.360 they're like, in this movie, we do plus like we said, uh, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:57.200 the general uh way of doing things. That has changed 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.080 quite a bit because you look at the reality of 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:05.080 the Robert Redford, Jeremiah Johnson Elk shot like that Elk died, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:07.920 you pointed out, and they took some heat. They took 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.480 some heat for it, and Robert Redford kind of like 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.640 justified and explained it. And then in mcgwayn's movie Ranchodi 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.720 looks grace film never made um. They you know, they 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:24.240 shoot a steer with a sharp's rifle. Um. And he 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.479 expressed to me that he was glad they don't do 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:30.320 it that way anymore. They bought a steer and shot it. 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.479 And when you watch the movie, if you're familiar with 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.760 any kind of hunting or farming or anything, when you're 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:39.479 watching the movie, there's no confusion. You watched Last and Mohicans, 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.200 it's like when they shoot a Deer's like that, dear, 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.000 I don't know what happened to that deer. It wasn't shot. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.520 That was just I don't know what it went from 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.440 a live deer to a stuffed thing somersault Yeah, yeah, 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:56.080 like stuffed like they threw a stuffed animal through the woods, somersaulting. Yeah. 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.800 I imagine how for the amount of folks uh that 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.280 are on a film set, how some could it could 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:10.360 probably cast a shadow over production for a day. If 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.080 if you're not un familiar with watching the light fade 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.240 from something's eyes. Anyone with sensitivities might want to come 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.640 to work late today. You know, I don't know. I'm 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.400 about ready to quit talking about I don't know, Phil, 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.760 Let me ask you. It just has an impartial observer. 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.960 Do you think we should um cease covering severed finger 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.600 stories or no? Well, what has the feedback been like? More? 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.640 It's just we get flooded with severed finger stories and images. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.600 Have you gotten anybody that's saying you're you're making me 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.760 gag while I listen to your podcast. They just send 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.160 us more and more graphics. I have pictures of severed 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.080 fingers that would curl your hair. Okay, well, I think 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.000 I said. I sent one of my wife and she 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.160 was genuinely mad at me for two days. I would 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.040 be too. It was about midnight, I was in a 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.440 different time zone and I sent her an image. No, 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.280 no explanation. This is an audio medium, though, so I 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.760 think you know, I think you're okay. I want to 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.360 post them to Instagram, but I feel like i'd get banished. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:14.280 Oh yeah, for sure. You got sent the grinder one, right. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.000 That's that is haunting, especially if you grind your own meat, 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.760 because the hand when it gets eventually cut out of 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:30.400 the grinder is very familiar, very familiar. Tend to knee chunks. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:34.960 I might start a page, separate page on the dark 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.760 web before I get anyways. A couple more finger stories. First, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.120 Jim halfl finger. That's the hell of a name actually, 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:45.720 speaking of severed grandfather severed his finger at the railroad railhouse. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:50.079 Call them Granda half a finger from most of that's fantastic. Yeah, 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.960 it's unusual. Last name you have tell tell people your 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.920 job real quick. Swiss German. My lame name is Swiss German. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.679 I'm the wildfe Science coordinator for AS in the game 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.400 Fish department. But you got your like, you're in there, man. 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.040 You mix it up. You write articles, listen to stuff, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:11.440 monitor stuff, argue. It's all interesting. Um. I started being 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.520 interest in Jim because he sends so many clarifications and corrections. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:17.360 I don't want to be that guy. No, No, not 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.760 at all. No, you do it very respectfully. Like we'll 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.439 get a lot of guys that like sending a cracktion 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:22.760 or two and you can just see over the months, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.400 you'll see him just become very agitated. But they're not 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.480 getting the level of attention they want and then they 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.600 just turned and then they turned like they like hate 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.720 you but still listen and you want to be like 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.120 you could not listen. Um, it doesn't accrue to him. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:41.280 But here, okay, this guy is talking about Uh, this 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:46.559 guy is talking about another great story. So this guy's um. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.719 This guy got married and his best man's dad had 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.480 retired and started. I don't understand. Is he tired, retired 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.480 and move to a golf course and he would kill 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.199 time by mowing the lawn. I feel like it must 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:02.240 have been a spare job, not volunteer. Would you move 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.640 to a golf course and volunteer to mow the golf course? 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:10.760 Listen to my grandpa would volunteer and mow lawns out 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.599 of the golf course that he loved. I did not 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.920 understand it. But my buddies who were working out at 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:21.920 that golf course as like caddies. They loved it. They're like, yeah, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:26.040 I saw your grandpa came by on the more work today. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.240 I've been anti golf my whole life, but I'm huge. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.400 I'm super pro golf now. I don't want to tell 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.319 people why. I don't want to tell people about what 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.160 what happened with me in the flip flat flasher. But 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:41.320 now we're like major golf supporters. At least it's green space. 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.320 I'm not a golfer, but a major golf supporter. I 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.360 support the golf industry. My dad always said, friends with 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.600 the golf industry. Hit the bone chase. It hit the 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.960 bone chase. It look at those simps out there, hit 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.720 the bone chase. It. Oh no, listen. I'm a golf supporter, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.599 but I mean, and I love all golfers, and I 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:04.160 support all golf courses, but uh, it's a moronic sport. Um. Anyways, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.320 this guy's ut moll on the golf course. You can 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.280 just picture this. So he's he's in a more it's 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.200 got a roll bar, and he's coming in and there's 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.240 a there's a pole with a guideline a guy cable 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.199 coming off of it. So he realizes that the roll 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:25.600 bar in the cable are gonna make contact, so he 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.160 he's got it. He breaks as he realizes, and he 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:32.239 reaches up to put some up pressure on the guyline 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.640 to clear it from the roll bar, but then his 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:41.959 foot slips off of the brake. Phil, can you put 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.680 in a good noise that sounds like this, but it's 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.079 like a right I mean, is that the sound of 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:52.040 flesh or the sound of like, what's what's happening here? 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:56.920 With that noise? That's the cable cutting his finger off. Combination. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.160 I think the most disturbing part of all of these 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:06.960 is there's rarely a scenario where I don't see myself 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.160 having narrowly avoided that happening to me, or I can't 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.040 be like, oh, I can see how I would do that. 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:22.080 There's a great detail, he says that his the tendon. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.640 There's a tendons find their way into these stories. The 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.040 tendon is someone sent us a picture of it. It's 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.679 like a finger with like sixteen inches attendant. Like the 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.760 tendant came off up at the elbow. But the tendon, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.559 he said, is wrapped around the cable. This is he's 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.920 a good writer. He says. It's similar if you took 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.720 a ribbon and run it along a pair of scissors 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.120 to coil it up. That's how he's describing the coil 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.920 of the tendon. And this man then getting up there 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:58.680 and unwrapping his h unwrapping his finger from the cable. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.040 Another good figure story. It is the last one for today. 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.400 There's two stories. One has nothing to do with fingers. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.719 Guy was saying, his h his old man's welder, and 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.079 he had a big weald and glove on and his 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.240 super hot chunk of slag got down as well and 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.640 glove and lodged against his wedding ring. His wedding ring 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.080 got so hot that it burned a scar circle around 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:17.839 his finger. Now he doesn't wear a wedding rings. He's 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.640 got a scar circle instead. He's got a scar as 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:27.440 a wedding ring. And a story. Uh yeah, oh two 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:32.040 more things, man, I just said one more, but two more? Yeah? Shoot, 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.120 what do you think, Jim? You get bored? No? I 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.160 like finger stories. It's not even a finger story. No, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.520 I'm not bored. All right, we're talking there to day 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.600 we had an episode. We're talking all dropping stuff down 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:48.880 ice holes, and this guy drops three fifty seven Smith 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.200 and Weston down down the ice hole, which is easy 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.600 to be like, why absolutely why? Like that is not 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.599 a common part of my He said it was stainless, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.480 and so the real bummers. He couldn't get it with 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.800 a magnet. He sends in a video of him in 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.120 his ice house. He gets his ice house ripping hot 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:08.719 with the heat and he's in his ice house but 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:14.120 his swim trunks. He goes down the whole, can't find it, 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.839 comes back up and he looks in like rough shape. Man. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.040 He gets warm back up again, his buddies filming, and 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.200 it looks at like a totally rough shape. And he 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.720 gets psyched up enough and dives back down here again 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.560 and comes out pretty much. His buddy's like reeling back 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.760 in with a rope tied around his ankle, and he's 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:34.720 got that pistol. He says they were toting it around 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.920 because they kept seeing wolves out on the ice. Oh 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:45.000 my gosh, pretty funny. Uh that's good, all right, Uh, 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.160 Jim halflefinger, let's start out with this. So you know, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.120 I guess first off, tell people like what your sort 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.960 of scope is your your the scope of your life's 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.400 work as a wildlife guy. So I spent twenty two 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.400 years as a regional biologist and too sound for his 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.080 on the game Fish Department, And in the last four 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.920 years I moved to kind of a statewide position called 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.800 Wilife Science Coordinator. And the gist of that job is 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.200 to have someone kind of free floating that can do 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.560 some of the deep dives into science and and make 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.120 sure that we've got good science supporting the policies and 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.840 the decisions we make as an agency. So that's pretty unusual. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.120 We'll have a state wilife agency too, to be I 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.160 think forward thinking enough to have someone like that to 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.280 make sure that we're providing a good scientific foundation and 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.880 the things we do. And your work, uh, I know 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.520 that just from talking about various issues around the country. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:37.320 Inherently your work spreads beyond Arizona because wildlife issues don't 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.120 stop at state lines, right, Yeah. And one of the 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.560 biggest reasons I'm involving a lot of westwide stuff is 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.680 I'm mom. Also, there's an association of of twenty four 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.080 Western state wildlife agency, state and provincial wilife agencies, and 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.040 it's called the Western Association Official Wildlife Agencies, and they 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.239 get together twice a year and they have some subcommittees 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.080 and some working groups, and I've chaired I've been on 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.600 the Milder Working Group UH for more than twenty years now, 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.800 and I've char it for the last thirteen or fourteen years, 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.080 and so as a as a chair that oversees a 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.400 meal deer expert from each of those twenty four Western agencies. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.640 We as a group and and me as the chair, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.760 are real involved in all the Western migration stuff. You 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.040 had Matt Kaufman here and and Kevin Monty talking about 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:17.440 some of the stuff they're doing. I've been working with 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.400 Matt and Kevin UM actually an awful lot on a 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:21.920 lot of these things in the West. But that that 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.520 position to the Western Association, sharing that group really puts 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.040 me um involved and in the seat to do a 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.800 lot of things throughout the West too. Uh. I know 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.400 some of the bigger things you get involved in, like 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.720 you know, all your big game and your charismatic megafauna. Um. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.240 How low down in the what's the smallest thing involved in? Well, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.360 my twenty two years as a regional biologist, I was 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.280 in charge of three species of quail, Google's turkey restoration 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.640 um in southeastern Arizona, mountain, lion's big horn, sheep, pronghorn, 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:54.520 all of all of the hunted species is what I 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.800 dealt with, from big game to small game. That was 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.400 most of my career and it's really the last four 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.960 years or so that I've been doing primarily a lot 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.040 of big game, a lot of big game Western stuff. 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.280 UM various miscellaneous science support for the agency, and then 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.679 Mexican wolf recovery, which I've been involved in for the 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.480 last ten years, oh for a decade now, we'll get 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.880 to that a little bit. I know. That's a yeah, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.879 and it's a constantly changing landscape. It is in minefield. 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.439 You might say, al right, first question, some quick hit 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.439 or topics for you. Um, and a lot of this 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.119 is inspired by feedback you've given us when questions emerge 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.560 on other shows. One of the things we've emailed about 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.159 was this, and we've we've touched on this, like news 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.919 reports about this or confusion about this is uh, there's this. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.880 It seems to be this emerging idea that people are like, well, 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.080 if if hunters go out and they want to like 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.240 hunters want to get big bucks, right, hunters want to 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.440 shoot big box, they want to shoot big bighorn sheep, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.760 they want to shoot big moves. If you go out 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:02.760 and selectively target big bucks, are you changing the evolutionary 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:07.439 path of the species, Meaning you're putting on you know, 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:13.840 you're putting a selective pressure against big antler dear, This 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.560 is an argument against trophy hunting, right, and that by 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:22.200 doing that, you're making them. You're driving them to become smaller, right, 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.040 all right, you're buying it, not buying it. No, with 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.439 with servants with a deer family there there's no evidence 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.200 of that at all. But this all came to light. 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:30.840 It's not even that new. It's just once in a 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.320 while a reporter will learn about it and write an 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:34.919 article about it and think they're the first one to 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.480 write about it. But it really call That's a good 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.639 way of expressing how things like this come up and 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.000 they and they stay alive like that. Um, someone thinks that, hey, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.000 I just found out this new thing, but everybody's been 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.840 discussing it for seventeen years, which has been about the 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.560 case with this. In two thousand three, David Colton came 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.720 out at we're talking about severed fingers. You don't feel 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.760 that way, you know, we can keep doing that, keep 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:01.439 doing that. These guys think they discovered severed fingers. So 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.119 there was a there was a paper in two thousand 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:04.919 three that really lit the world on fire on this 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.360 whole topic. He didn't hear two thousand three, two thousand three, 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.160 that's all long and that's really the genesis of all 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.800 this recent kind of interests in that in that topic. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.280 But they there was a there's a population on the 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.720 east side of the Alberta Rockies and it's separated from 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:21.120 the main part of the Rockies Bigne. It's called Ram 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.800 Mountain and it's a it's a really small little dot 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.200 out away from the rest of the sheep populations. I 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.840 gotta stop you. Okay, you mentioned with servants, but now 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.840 we're talking about yep cheap. Yeah, right, to help people 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.399 get through that, And I just I just mentioned servants 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.600 right off the bat to to almost dismissed that because 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:40.960 and we can talk about some of the reasons and 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:42.600 tell me what servants are too, just because it's a 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.720 deer family, so it's a moose and alcan deer and 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.000 and um anything in the deer family with basically with 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.479 antlers with a few exceptions. So so this whole idea 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.920 of trophy hunters ruining the gene pool, degrading the gene pool. 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.360 Some of the popular media called evolution in reverse that 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.000 has really been focused on big horn cheap or why 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.440 out cheap and and it all comes from this one isolated, 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.440 unique population called Ram Mountain and Alberta. And they did 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.040 some research on there and they reported in two thousand 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.360 three in Nature that hunters selecting the largest rams were 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.760 actually causing a genetic change in the population, so that 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.760 there was smaller and smaller rams uh in that population. 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.440 And then that same author even came out in two 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.439 thousand and eight and said, well, my work in two 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.919 thousand three really probably over exaggerated the genetic component of that. 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.240 There's really more nutrition um than I originally said in 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.800 that paper, but it was too late. The popular media 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.000 took that and just ran with it, and you saw it. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.919 You saw it everywhere, and part of it was for 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.760 people who don't like hunting and people who don't like 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.480 trophy hunting. It was such an irresistible story. Trophy under 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.360 something negative about trophy hunters, and some people just love that, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.399 and so trophy hunters are ruining the gene pool, and 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.639 all the popular media picked up on that. And then 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.399 there's even some scientists who don't like trophy hunting and 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.479 don't like hunting, and so they started looking at other 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.960 data set and and see if they could produce a 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.560 paper that looked something similar, And all the subsequent papers 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:07.800 that came out they would cite the Ram mountain information, 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.119 which were later found out to be over exaggerated in 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.080 the genetic component, and these and these other scientists would 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.639 speculate um sighting Ram Mountain and then speculate that this 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:19.760 may be happening in these other areas, and it may 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.640 be happening with all big game, may be happening with 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.680 all species worldwide that humans harvest, and so these other 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.480 papers were just full of speculation. But every time someone 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.280 published a paper to speculate, someone else could cite the 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.359 speculative paper and the Ram Mountain paper, and these started 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.520 to build this body of speculation. And and now we're 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.560 starting to get back and apply some science to that 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.680 and find out that it's it's it may happen in 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.600 a few cases, but it's certainly not widespread. But it's 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.520 too late. The public has has seen the popular message 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.919 and aren't reading scientific papers. But the bottom line is 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.920 if selection is intensive enough, it can affect the gene 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.280 pool in the future. What you need to think about 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.240 is in what cases is selection intensive enough to actually 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:09.000 change the gene pool in cheap or or deer or 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:11.800 any other species that we hunt. And the answer is 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:13.960 it's a very rare case. And and the case on 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.440 Ram Mountain was unique because it was isolated. The population 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.160 swelled and bottlenecked a few times, which can affect the genetics. 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.600 And also they had a hunting regime there where it 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:26.720 was an unlimited number of hunters could hunt that little 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.879 isolated mountain range the isolated mountain, but they had to 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:32.879 be four fifths curl before they were legal to harvest. 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.560 And so that's a situation where the rams that have 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.119 faster growing horns, better genetics, faster growing horns are going 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.119 to get truncated. They're gonna get taken out of the 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.159 field as soon as they hit four fifths. And so 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.600 that's the case where the rams that have faster growing 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:47.720 horns are going to be removed at a higher proportion 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:49.760 than rams of slower growing horns. So that was the 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.960 basis of this Coldman and so there's it's so theoretically 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.719 and in practice there it's not flawed that in certain 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.280 situations that can happen. We did some more recent search 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.720 with with Kevin Montiese Lab Taylor Lashar is a graduate student, 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.520 where we took state big horn sheep records, and state 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.359 records were important because we had horn measurements and we 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:12.320 also had ages on those rams, which is something the 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:14.919 Boone Crockett, Pope and Young Rocket books don't have ages. 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:16.680 They just have measurements, and they don't they don't record 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:21.520 the number annually on a horn um not not Buona Crockett. No, 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.840 it's measurements, you know. They got their measurement system and 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:26.360 then on the data sheet there they can put um 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:28.880 age on some of the species. But I'm not sure 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.880 if they even do it with big horn sheet on there. Yeah, 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:33.119 and the problem too is you have to be like 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:35.800 pretty well trained. Yeah, it's not it's not that easy. 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:37.840 There's some there's some experience that goes into it. But 0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.800 state agencies do record age and record some measurements, sometimes 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.320 full Boone Crockett, sometimes just basis plus the length of 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:47.800 the horn. And so we went to the state records 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.000 and got all the state records we could assembled into 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:52.960 a database where we had age and we had the 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:55.560 antler or the horn measurements, and then we were able 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.800 to analyze these the sheep records and we were able 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:03.720 to to accommodator neutralized the effective age because obviously the 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:05.879 older the ramble, the bigger the horns. And so you 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:07.919 got it in your analysis, you've you've got to be 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:10.800 able to UM look at that and fair at that 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:13.760 part of the analysis out. And then we're also able 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:16.280 to look at some UM in d v I index, 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.480 which is a greenness index of satellite imagery, and we 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.399 were able to look at at nutrition and environment and 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.080 how that affected horn size in these in these states 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.600 and in these populations, and and in the end, we 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:32.960 analyzed UM data from thirty five years from seventy two 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:37.919 different hunt units around North America UM and and in 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:42.399 the end we found that of those seventy two units UM, 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:45.280 seventy eight percent of them were either stable or the 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:49.120 horn size was increasing, so only even showed a decline. 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.600 Now we don't even know yet what that decline is, 0:24:51.640 --> 0:24:54.280 but in those twenty two that declined, only half of 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:58.960 those had a hunt regime that even even could possibly 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:01.560 exert some kind of stuf the pressure. You know, sometimes 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:04.359 you can just look at a hunt system and and 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:07.480 like a complete permit system that Arizona has, where someone 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:11.720 just takes just one rams monge, so you're not you 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:13.800 don't have that kind of selective pressure like you have 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:16.920 if you have unlimited number of hunters creaming that horn 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:19.159 size at a certain level. And so even in the 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:22.800 twenty two where they weren't stable or increasing in horn length, 0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:25.880 they were decreasing UM still about half of those could 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:29.199 even have possibly been due to some selective pressure. And 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:32.520 so the bottom line is, even in sheep, which is 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.080 the only species that this has really been um found 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.560 in a in a controlled setting, it's very unusual to 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:42.280 have that kind of hunting regime that that would actually 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:45.280 apply that selected pressure to cause kind of genetic changes. 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:50.400 And all this is confounded terribly with with nutrition. More nutrition, 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:52.439 and animal gets the bigger the horns and antlers. The 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:54.920 older the animal gets, the bigger the horns and antlers, 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:58.200 And and there's um all kinds of obstacles, which is 0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:00.399 a paper you saw that I wrote, all kinds of 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:03.440 obstacles that get in the way of hunters actually affecting 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:05.679 the gene pool. And when the hunter goes out and shoots, 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:08.200 passes up a spike and shoots an eight point white 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:12.240 tailed buck in Iowa, technically that's selection because they passed 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:14.359 up one buck and they selected a bigger buck. But 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:17.119 you have to look at the intensity of selection. Is 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:21.560 that anywhere near um intensive enough to cause any genetic changes? 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:23.680 And you think about all of the other things that 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:26.040 are removing animals from the population that have nothing to 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:28.800 do with horn or antlers size. You have, for example, 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:31.520 a fawn crop, you lose half of the fonds every 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:35.720 year before their first birthday UH in general, and those 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.919 losses of half of that annual cohort have nothing to 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.280 do with horn or antlers size. You've got mountain lions, 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:44.240 you've got predators killing adults that have nothing to do 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:47.440 with antler size. And the idea that hunters going out 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:50.840 during daylight hours in the hunt unit they have a 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:55.560 permit for only able to take males. The fact that 0:26:55.640 --> 0:26:59.080 the idea that they're affecting that entire gene pool, it's 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:01.400 just ludicrous that you would apply that kind of pressure. 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:03.960 That could happen in some cases and cheap, but it's 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.800 pretty rare. Well, there's some so much conflicting data out 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:11.320 there too as to how much we're actually even we 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:14.840 I guess hunters in certain cases are actually even affecting behavior. 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:17.920 Like you see all these white tail papers that come 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:20.160 out and it's like, well the bucks have gone nocturnal. 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:24.080 It's like, well, no, we tracked them and they do 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.040 just as much walking around during the day as they 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:30.800 do at night. I mean, honing effects behavior hugely. Oh 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:33.800 of game animals, But like you look at these clubs 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:38.320 situations right where it's like you got five guys hunting, 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:43.639 you know, a thousand acres. They're out there, maybe twenty 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:47.320 five days total between the five guys, and they all 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:50.359 have the same story as Joe Dude going out on 0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:53.040 public land. It's like the deer are so educated. Yeah, 0:27:53.080 --> 0:27:55.879 but it's generational to the mean they're raised by. I mean, 0:27:55.920 --> 0:27:58.920 these are animals that spend a year with their mothers, 0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:00.720 spend a year with her mother, who's spent a year 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:03.399 with her mother. There's a learned you know, there's learned response. 0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:05.159 I mean you just go look at landscapes where you 0:28:05.280 --> 0:28:08.000 always had hunting and then took it away. Oh that 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:12.040 that spot that we hunted or Eric Siegfried from on 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:16.119 acc and I hunted this year. It's this funky access 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:18.520 deal where you kind of have to get up on 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:25.400 this rock room and I swear to God or more 0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:29.280 of the mule deer dose just walked below staring at 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:32.399 that rock room like they just were it locked on 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:34.359 it and when you and your body sneak in and 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:37.639 always hunt Yellowstone. I mean you always always act like 0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:40.480 you hunted somewhere else. But I mean you guys are 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:43.680 really well in all right, you and your body well 0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:47.479 better than anybody else. Um. Do you get frustrated by 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:50.440 the way stuffs covered in the media. It's gotta make 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:53.280 you mad. Not not even a scientist, it does. But 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:55.040 when you know the science, and the public is not 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.320 reading scientific papers, when you know the science and you 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:00.520 see something like that just catch fire and run away 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:03.360 in the popular media and it's not true and it's exaggerated, 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.960 and everything that you read is just full of errors, 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:08.160 and and that's what everybody, that's what most of the 0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:10.760 general public readings. And there's like credible places that run 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:13.400 with it too. Like National Geographic could cover the piss 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:15.720 out of a story like that. They would never cover 0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:18.080 the like when it wanted, being that it wasn't accurate, 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:20.720 they would have zero interest in it because they love 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:23.400 anything that can be like a little bit like put 0:29:23.440 --> 0:29:26.960 a little taint down hunting. They love it. They go 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:28.440 out of their way to find it. They would never 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:29.920 be like, oh, you know what turns out that that 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:33.000 wasn't actually true. Um, I mean like like the bias 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:35.640 is so within the organization like that, Like the bias 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.000 is so severe, and like you look at this thing 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:41.400 that's going on with Donald Trump Jr. Right, he's doing 0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.880 a fundraiser. He's doing a fundraiser where they're gonna go 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:49.040 hunt ducks and blacktail deer, and the media is covering 0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:52.760 it like a trophy animal hunt. That's a hunting ducks 0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:56.400 and blacktails. Is a trophy animal hunt? Now, well, it's 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.960 like that's how, that's how it's described that you guys 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:05.280 saw the UM so that i u c n UH 0:30:06.000 --> 0:30:10.080 is a body that I pay attention to for a 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:14.480 lot of conservation up to date conservation facts and knowledge 0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:19.600 and UM A lot of stories came out earlier or 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:22.719 late last year on how the i u c n 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:27.040 has determined that trophy hunting is this terrible thing and 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:31.120 it's killing these animal populations. And you start reading into 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:34.200 it and you not not bush hunting, not bush me hunting. 0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:39.200 But the paper is they're like, well, this is a 0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:43.720 something that was being researched and it's not even the conclusion. 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:47.240 Somebody just took it and ran this out. This is 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:50.320 not our finding. But nobody covered that story. It was 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:53.480 always here it is. That's a good pushback some letters. 0:30:53.560 --> 0:30:56.520 I think I sent you something recently with the conservation 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:00.080 front Lines is a is an email um service you 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:02.280 can subscribe to free and they have some really good 0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:05.080 information about some scientists have gotten together and some some 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:08.480 people in Africa have gotten together and representing local African communities, 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:12.880 and the African communities are saying, how dare western um 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:17.640 people take away our livelihood? You know, this is sustainable conservation, 0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:21.440 it's funding conservations, funding our villages, and how how dare 0:31:21.520 --> 0:31:24.920 someone sitting there white house someplace in the US and 0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:27.200 and say this isn't a good thing. Yeah, it's like 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:31.720 the it's like left wing imperialism. Man, the band's going on. 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.440 It's like it's like it's like a softer, gentler imperialism. 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:41.760 Do you think the UK bands are kind of a 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:45.920 little long term guilt laden thing is from the days 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:51.360 of British imperialism where it's like, yeah, that's fine all 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.680 they're like they're like tacking a little like the old pendulum. 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.560 Um Chaine Mahoney asked me to be on the u 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:01.840 c N Sustainable Use and Livelihoods Committee, So that's one 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:04.320 of the committees that he chairs and real active with 0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:06.760 and it's all about this. I like the i u 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:11.440 c N ratings. Yeah, um, I tend to. I tend 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:13.720 to um. I tend to eat a lot of things 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:17.600 that are of least concern. Yeah, exactly. I was recently 0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:20.560 looking at the mountain lion um um they changed it. 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.560 It says that it's decreasing. It says that the populations 0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:25.320 are decading. Yeah, I looked at that. I understand for 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:28.240 the mountainline, I don't understand that either. In fact, one 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:30.880 of the main paper they cite for that um is 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:34.000 someone I worked with with Mexican Wolf Recovery. I sent 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:35.920 him an email with a link to that, and since 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:39.320 they were citing their work, I just asked him what 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:40.800 what is that all about? And I haven't heard from 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:42.600 him yet, but they get it. They I feel that 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:44.200 the i u c N does a little bit play 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:48.200 a predictive game. But but even that would not line 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.200 predicting a decline when something's on an increase, How do 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:55.600 you predict? Yeah, so that that's just apparently wrong. Yeah, 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:59.600 we should say International Union for the Conservation of Nature. Yeah, 0:32:59.640 --> 0:33:02.120 if you go, you know, the Wikipedia gives a lot 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:03.720 of ink to the i U c N. So if 0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:06.120 you type in any species, like if you're going the 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:10.000 other day, we're looking at uh, we're looking at um 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:12.360 the long tailed weasel, So the i U c N 0:33:12.440 --> 0:33:15.320 long tail weasel. It would have it like population of 0:33:15.400 --> 0:33:18.720 least concern, which is the which is like the best 0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.120 news the species can get. The thing you want is 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.360 to be in the least concern and it's it's great 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.200 at out over. I don't know how many designations, and 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:30.840 it's six. It's a spectrum there and there's like a 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:34.440 most concern and then a critical concern. There's extinct. I 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:38.520 think we're just yeah, okay, next question we have before 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:40.200 you've done some work with that. We talked about Vale 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:42.560 guys all damn time. He's a good friend of mine, 0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:47.160 good friend twenty years. Uh. In fact, I brought Ben 0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:51.040 O'Brien val guys bone broth recipe. That's Vale for it. 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:57.000 That's good Val guys. Okay, we talked. We've covered this before. 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:01.160 Val guys had a he took at ab at what 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.960 I don't know if I want to redo it. He 0:34:04.040 --> 0:34:06.000 took a stab on how the mule deer came to be. 0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:10.040 I presented this as some mule dear researchers, and they 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:13.719 were they were not titillated by it. They didn't even 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:17.080 want to take it on. It was like fanciful and 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:21.440 like not understandable. But it was this idea that for 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.359 I'm gonna do a short version, hold your thumb out 0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.200 and as you get bored, start going down. I was 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:30.160 gonna start in the plio scene. So you're doing better, 0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:34.279 I'm not going okay, if you know you were here, 0:34:34.320 --> 0:34:35.239 what we could do. Let me try to do a 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:38.640 crash course and what I had read he floored to 0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:41.040 this idea that three million years ago and the like 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:43.560 what is now the southeastern US, There's always been white 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:45.680 tailed deer Kelson, I'm still up. What you do? Bang 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:49.600 your thumb of the hammer. Your kid asked me that too, 0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:51.560 and I gotta tell you the same thing. I don't 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:58.479 know it n fifty right there? Uh what was I saying? Oh? Yeah, 0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:00.160 there's always been white tailed deer and was not the 0:35:00.160 --> 0:35:03.560 southeastern US. We had this big wet, you know, period 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:07.720 of of of lush growth, and these deer colonized coast 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:12.400 to coast, colonized the mid continent from the east coast 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:14.600 of the US to the west coast. Then there was 0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:16.600 a big dry period and the empty in the middle 0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:20.160 emptied out, and these deer on the west that were 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:24.080 remained on the west coast gradually evolved into black tails. 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:28.160 Then there was another period where it was moist and 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:32.520 conditions were good, and this population of black tails moved east. 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.959 The white tails, which had retreated to the southeastern US, 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:39.120 had moved back west. They met along the Rocky Front, 0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:45.520 the Rocky Mountain Front, had sex um and spawned hybridized, 0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:49.839 and then there was another great retraction. Blacktails went back 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:52.279 to the coast, white tails went back down to the southeast, 0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:57.440 and this lingering population of these hybridized. I think it 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:02.239 was black tailed bucks making love to white tail does um, 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.880 that's your mule dere um? Yeah, And they said, uh, 0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:09.000 I presented to some mule deer people and and they 0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:14.680 had a response kind of like uh, let's move on. Well, 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:17.120 there was some there was some There was a scientific 0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:19.480 basis for val coming up with that theory, which has 0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:23.239 been superseded by other genetic work that came along time 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:25.400 for you to tell us, like what's up with all 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:27.399 the deals? So that was that was basically I think 0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:30.480 it was it was glacier's advancing and receding rather than 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:33.280 wet and dry. I think probably it was changing environment, 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:36.560 changing habitats that were calling again split. But but regardless, 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:39.680 that's basically the story that that Val came up with, 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:41.560 and and he did that for a reason because when 0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:44.719 they start first started doing genetic work, they found out 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:49.080 that blacktailed deer have completely different mitochondrial DNA than mule 0:36:49.160 --> 0:36:51.720 there yet their subspecies. So there's two kinds of DNA. 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:53.920 There's there's DNA in the nucleus and you get this 0:36:54.120 --> 0:36:56.160 nuclear DNA and you get half of that from your mother, 0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:58.880 half from your father. There's another kind of DNA floating 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:02.120 around in the sets outside the nucleus called mitochondrial DNA 0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:04.799 mighticondra DNA you only get from your mother, so it's 0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:06.480 like a clone. It comes from your mother and your 0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:09.520 grandmother and her mother. Yeah, that's how they like contract 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:13.080 down sort of the you know, like all of Western 0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:16.239 Europe theoretically track all of Western Europe to like a 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:20.920 female to an mitochondrial eve so so the mitochondria, so 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.760 you can you want to analyze both types of DNA, 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:26.840 and they yield different answers to different kinds of questions, 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:31.240 But initial mitochondrial DNA analysis showed you think about, really, 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.920 the two black tailed deer subspecies are just subspecies of 0:37:34.000 --> 0:37:37.560 mule deer. They're all oticoles Hemionus some subspecies, and then 0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:40.160 you have white tail, which for a different species Virginianus. 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:42.799 And yet when they looked at the mitochondrial DNA, they 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.200 found out that mule deer and white tailed deer have 0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:48.640 basically the same mitochondrial DNA, which is bizarre because they're 0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:51.879 different species and and both of them, including mule deer, 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:54.840 have different mitochondrial DNA from black tail, so blacktails have 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:58.400 this unique mitochondrial DNA. So Val took that just thinking 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:03.040 about that, Val said, well, could probably occur if female 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.239 if if black tailed deer bred with white tailed deer 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:10.440 and in the offspring brought in that wet white tail 0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:12.840 deer might have condrial DNA. So if you had female 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:16.000 white tailed deer breeding with black tail males and they 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:18.560 spawned some kind of the hybrid mule deer, then all 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.560 those mulder would have the same mitochondrial DNA as the 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:24.560 white tail because because it comes to the female line, 0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:26.839 and so it was female white tail, then mulder would 0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:30.560 have that same mitochondrial DNA and black tails would be different. 0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:34.640 And so that just going on that that was a 0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:37.799 basis of that's what inspired that. That's what inspired it. 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:40.160 So it made sense at the time, but later on 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.359 more work, especially with nuclear DNA, that you get half 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:45.160 from your mother, half from your father. You look at 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:49.880 muled or nuclear DNA and and it's it's closely aligned 0:38:49.920 --> 0:38:53.000 with black tails. Blacktail and mule deer are all closely associated, 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.799 and then white tails completely different. So if they really 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:57.960 were hybrids, then the mule deer, when you look at 0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:00.200 the nuclear DNA, they would have about half for the 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:03.000 white tailed genome and about half of the blacktail genome. 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:06.560 But they don't. Mule deer and blacktailed deer evolved as 0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:09.879 one group and then black tailed deer split off during 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:11.880 one of the advances of the ice ages over in 0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.280 the Pacific coast. So there, okay, So in this version 0:39:15.320 --> 0:39:23.879 of events, mule deer um predated black tails. Yes, yea 0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:28.240 in that version, but here sick of white tail looks 0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:30.360 or sick of blacktail looks so damn much like a 0:39:30.360 --> 0:39:34.399 white tail. I know that that under growth and everything, well, 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.280 even like metatarsal glands. There's other things where the black 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:39.880 tailed deer actually looks like a hybrid, which makes it 0:39:40.000 --> 0:39:42.200 is confusing as hell, because the black tailed deer looks 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:44.840 almost like it's got some white tail like characteristics. But 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:48.759 when you're at genetics, the blacktail can't be can't be 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:51.880 a hybrid between those two, and so it's got to 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:55.080 be convergent evolution where they they kind of acquire traits 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:57.680 that are similar even though they're not um like dragon 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:00.280 m We talked about this the other day. Dragonfly asanna 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:03.520 hummingbirds both fly. That doesn't mean their cousins yep. So 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.040 we did genetic analysis. We did some genetic analysis all 0:40:06.120 --> 0:40:09.080 up and down the coast in black tails from California 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:12.800 up to Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, and then mid British Columbia. 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:15.800 It starts you start getting into Sitka blacktails up into Alaska, 0:40:15.840 --> 0:40:17.879 and we had them all and analyze all of those 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:22.000 and and found the highest concentration of genetic diversity was 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:25.040 the coast of Oregon and Washington in blacktail deer both 0:40:25.120 --> 0:40:29.000 subspecies of blacktail deer and and geneticis population geneticis will 0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:30.920 tell you that where you have a focal point with 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:34.400 high genetic diversity right there, and then lower genetic diversity 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.520 rating out from that. That indicates that was the refugium, 0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:41.200 that's the that's ground zero for that species or that animal. 0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:44.600 And so likely the blacktail deer were isolated for a 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.400 long time during one of the many glacial advances and 0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:51.799 receding over on that coast, and then gradually expanded out 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:54.120 from there with the receding of the glaciers. And so 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.640 so why does a sitka then look different than the 0:40:56.680 --> 0:40:58.640 Colombian And I don't know the answer to why he 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:00.799 doesn't typically have a buy for hated antler like a 0:41:00.840 --> 0:41:05.520 forked antler. Well, the mature could, but like they mean 0:41:05.560 --> 0:41:08.120 that Washington, they tend to throw a rack a hell 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:10.719 of a lot like a white tail. They look they're small, 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:12.560 they're about the same side like that. The mature ones 0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.440 will have the G two s. But sitkas have a 0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:18.360 double white bib on their throat um. They're kind of 0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:21.560 a different tail. They look real different. And that nobody 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.120 knows for sure what kind of separation there might have 0:41:24.160 --> 0:41:27.440 been in some glacial period between Columbian black tail and 0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:31.480 Sitka black tail. The sitka could just be a phenotypic 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:34.719 or a physical adaptation to that marine environment. Swimming and 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:37.400 living on islands in that kind of environment. It could 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:41.240 be adaptation and they're physically changing not so much because 0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:44.080 of the separation. Nobody really knows that for sure. Do 0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:47.960 you what's the refuge of the white tail? Like, like 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:51.200 how far back in time? Trying to think how to 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:54.400 express this question. If you had a time machine and 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:57.319 it said it like a random it just randomly throw 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:00.960 you back to randomize dates, and you wanted to set 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:04.240 a location on your time machine to maximize the chances 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:06.359 that you would stumble into a white tail, what would 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:10.120 you set Florida, Florida. Yeah, and there's a lot of 0:42:10.120 --> 0:42:12.400 white tail fossils in Florida, in fact that they've been 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:14.759 hanging around there a long time. They have been. Yeah, 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:16.960 they've been in the place of seeing there's a there's 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:20.760 just a ton of of places seeing white tail fossils 0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:26.600 in Florida. And actually brought you one ship. It's an 0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.920 epicenter so that you can see that fossilized material and 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:32.760 that's just the just handed me a fossilized the bone 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.560 base from the skull so the pedicle, get the pedicle um, 0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:41.319 the antler about inch and a half antler about an 0:42:41.360 --> 0:42:44.600 inch of skull and it fields like stone and it 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:48.400 is stone. Yea. You know. The word pedicle comes from 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.799 George Bobin, famous antler researcher, George and and George and 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:54.839 his his father, Anthony and Anthony. They wrote a book 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:57.200 in nine called Horns Prong, Horns and Antlers and it's 0:42:57.239 --> 0:42:59.920 like the Bible for Antler kind of antler science speaking 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:05.280 out um. But Anthony Bubinick Coin didn't coin the phrase pedicle, 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:07.040 but he told us how to pronounce it pedical. He 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:10.359 says it rhymes with medical. But Anthony Bubinick spoke about 0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:12.840 six languages and English was like his fifth language. And 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:14.719 so I always think it's kind of funny that we're 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:18.440 all taking our pronunciation of from this guy who nobody 0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:21.399 can understand when he spoke English. This is amazing, man. 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:24.359 This is out of Florida. Yeah, Florida. So this deer 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.400 was running around he bumped into masodons now and that's dated, 0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:32.839 that's dated. Pleist to scene. Yeah. Jim. Also Broad's show 0:43:32.920 --> 0:43:38.520 us a replica of a saber tooth tooth smile ad 0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:42.040 on fake tal us his canine and smile. Ad On 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:45.040 is uh and this thing is leven inches long? Yeah, 0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:47.240 smile and was not because they had a big smile 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:50.160 with those big tooth. The smile addon comes from. I 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:51.920 think it's meetly. I don't have how to pronounce it, 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:55.799 but it's Latin for double edged sword. I'd laugh. They 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:58.239 just jumped out. It's grabbed Phil. It would make a 0:43:58.320 --> 0:44:01.640 bike ride to work a little bit eating, like you know, 0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.440 I just killed him. I'd be like that, can you 0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:08.520 believe that? Cow? That's what I would be. Moved real slow, 0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.760 real slow. So Florida had a lot of white tails, 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:19.600 go ahead, caw. Florida also has the spring site where 0:44:19.640 --> 0:44:22.360 they got all the fossils out of, including the giant 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:28.160 tortoise with not familiar with that giant tortoises that once 0:44:28.239 --> 0:44:32.680 roamed what is now the United States, But they found 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:39.160 a tortoise shell in this spring in Florida that had 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.200 a spear point in it. I need to talk to 0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.760 our I need to talk to our performer podcast guests. 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.759 So then you start digging into the actual paper. It's 0:44:50.800 --> 0:44:54.440 like it was laying nearby. He was laying in the 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:57.080 shell as they brought the thing out, and they're like, 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:00.480 so it could be this, but very well would be this, 0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:05.360 But then it's clear evidence of ceremonial turtles. This exactly. 0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:08.719 It was a religious total. There was a paleontologist in 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:12.080 New Mexico that was knocking one of the arrow points, 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:14.680 knocking one of the little shoulders off and saying that 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:17.680 was indicative of Sandia man and and he wrote papers 0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:20.719 and constructed this big because he always knocked the shoulder off. 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.080 But he but they found out later he would knocking 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:25.160 the shoulders off and saying it with diagnostic of this. 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:28.400 There's some bad that's some bad stuff. But he wasn't 0:45:28.440 --> 0:45:32.279 doing it as a greater social experiment. Can I Can 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:34.520 I tell people what you were musing before we started 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:37.480 recording your observation about archaeology or is that just too hard? 0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:41.160 That's fine, that's tell him yourself the truth. Yeah, truth 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:43.480 is hard. A friend of mine always call archaeology a 0:45:43.480 --> 0:45:46.200 soft science because they just so much of it is 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:48.120 just made up. They'll find a toebone and then they'll 0:45:48.120 --> 0:45:50.280 write a paper about what the home range was and 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:52.680 and what the color of the fur was. And unfortunately 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:55.120 there's just a lot of a lot of garbage. I 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.000 was looking into archaeological evidence of elk in Arizona, and 0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:00.520 we're doing some Miriam Delk stuff. And and there was 0:46:00.520 --> 0:46:03.279 a son who was a paleontologist and archaeologist and his 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:06.440 dad was too at the university, and he had forty 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:11.239 four thousand deer family bones out of this site in Arizona, 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:13.600 and he had like fourteen or so elk. And so 0:46:13.640 --> 0:46:16.120 I was really interested in those elk specimens. And I 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:18.080 couldn't get ahold of the sun. But I talked to 0:46:18.120 --> 0:46:20.319 the dad, and the dad says, all those were those 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:22.080 are big out icolio. So those are big meal there. 0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:23.920 Those weren't elk. He didn't know what he was talking 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:26.719 about talking about his own son in his paper. So 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:28.440 there's a lot of that in there. And you just 0:46:28.480 --> 0:46:31.919 got to really be skeptical and be cautious. He can't 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:34.880 read a paper and then just go, um, you know, 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:38.480 repeating it without some skepticism of thinking thinking about it. 0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:40.480 When when I was when I was working on my Buffalo, 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:44.000 but um, it came up like I was came up 0:46:44.000 --> 0:46:47.520 where I was reading about where there were accounts of 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:53.400 them occurring. And there's a lot of versions of why Buffalo, 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:55.319 New York became Buffalo New York. But you'll often read 0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:57.280 in old books that, like, Buffalo New York was Buffalo 0:46:57.360 --> 0:46:59.840 New York because someone had encountered Buffalo. I thought it 0:46:59.880 --> 0:47:05.080 was the wings. Well, you know there's a I get 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:06.239 I think I get into it in the book hit 0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:08.560 or explain or not. A bunch of different theories about 0:47:08.560 --> 0:47:11.319 how it got the name, but it would not be 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:13.680 in that that. Sometimes you'll see distribution maps for where 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:19.600 buffalo roamed, bison bison bison roamed, and people have it 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:22.759 going up in New York. The range map. We'll go 0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:27.200 up in New York and it comes from people included 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:32.600 because two skulls came out of some campsite, some excavation 0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:36.960 of a campsite in New York, just the schools, and 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:43.799 both of them, uh had cultural markings on them, and 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:47.480 later people looked at it and thought were they living 0:47:47.480 --> 0:47:52.000 here or did someone get some from someone and bring 0:47:52.000 --> 0:47:55.160 them home? The same way copper that comes out of 0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:59.160 Michigan's Upper Peninsula can be found anywhere in the Midwest 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:03.160 and trace back like people took stuff they thought stuff 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:06.200 was cool and brought home with them. Arizona parrot feathers 0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:08.440 in Arizona and all kinds of things from Central Americas. 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:11.359 There was these big trade routes. And if you look 0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:15.160 in the not the Last Elka North America book, I 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:17.000 think it was a one before it, or maybe it 0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:18.360 was the last. No, it was the one before the 0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:21.000 last one. And they show elk distribution all the way 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:24.919 down to Mexico City. And it's only because Montezuma had 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:27.280 some elk. He had a menagerie, he had a menagerie, 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:30.000 and he had some elk in the menagerie, and and 0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:32.600 the people doing the distribution map to include Mexico City, 0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:34.880 and in fact the elk really weren't in there. In 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:42.160 in Mexico, Cortez his his like recorders describe the first 0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:48.000 the first bison ever witnessed by a European um was 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:55.200 probably in Montezumas menagerie witnessed by cortez expedition. And I 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:59.000 think that somehow and somehow they describe it as having 0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:02.640 come from the north. Yeah, probably having come from the north, 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:04.799 and not that it lived there. The mealier was first 0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:11.480 described um from the journals of u Laray, and he 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:14.200 first described what amelier looked like in the west, and 0:49:14.239 --> 0:49:16.879 it was found out later that there was no such 0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:19.760 person as Charles Lay, and that his journals were entirely 0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:22.560 fabricated by someone they don't even know who, but entirely 0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:25.560 fabricated the journals, taking pieces some of from Lewis and Clark, 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:28.240 some from different journals from explorers, and put it together 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:31.040 and and made up this story about Charles Lay, who 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:33.240 was in the West. He was captured by Sue Indians. 0:49:33.239 --> 0:49:35.920 He was held captive for several years, um by the 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:38.440 by the tribe, and during that time he kept a 0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:42.200 journal because and it was only because Western literature was 0:49:42.280 --> 0:49:45.680 really popular. This is some late eighteen hundreds. I think 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:48.880 Western literature is really popular, and being held captive by 0:49:48.960 --> 0:49:51.960 Native American tribes was like a really hot story. So 0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:54.359 this guy just fabricated this whole thing. And so you'll 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:56.680 read even some of my early writings we were talking 0:49:56.719 --> 0:50:00.480 about Charles Lay described the first meal. Dear, turns out 0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:06.120 it's just christated. Everybody keeps repeating it over and over again. Well, 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.000 when we're talking ahead of this, um came right at 0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.680 some point in time, you'd mentioned that you wanted to 0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:14.840 discuss Elliott cous But let me tee that off with. 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:18.759 Do you accept ioul, like, who's your kind of one 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:22.800 of my favorite animals by far, definitely probably maybe first 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:24.880 or second favorite thing to go hunting for it maybe 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:29.520 third Turkey's mulder in white tail, I'm sorry, Turkey's mule deer. 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.440 Who's dear? In my mind depends what time of year 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:34.000 it is, which one of those is my favorite thing 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:37.759 to hunt. But our cu'se dear, like, do you accept 0:50:38.200 --> 0:50:40.680 or what's the thinking? They're like a subspecies of the 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:42.600 white tales. They're just white tails and it happened to 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:45.400 be somewhere else. Yeah, there's no doubt there are subspecies 0:50:45.440 --> 0:50:48.120 that that really evolved differently because they were in the 0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:51.680 Sierra Madre of Mexico, and so they were really geographically 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:55.279 fairly isolated from the Sierra Madre. That's deer, okay, Yeah, 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:57.320 I mean when you get down, you get about halfway 0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.839 down the Sierra Madre and they start getting all these 0:50:59.840 --> 0:51:02.920 other subspecies names. But nobody's really done science on that 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:05.400 at all. We've got a small white tail throughout the 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:08.160 highlands of Mexico and none of them are probably any different, 0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:11.239 probably basically Cole's dear all the way down through the 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:14.520 Sera Money cows dear man. Yeah, didn't you didn't you hear? 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:17.120 Didn't you hear? Yanni? A couple of weeks ago. You 0:51:17.120 --> 0:51:19.200 guys know that you were a cow's dear man. This 0:51:19.239 --> 0:51:20.799 is the first cow's dear man we've ever had in 0:51:20.840 --> 0:51:23.560 this room. I had my fifteen minutes of fame a 0:51:23.560 --> 0:51:25.799 couple of weeks ago, and Yanni said, there's like one 0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:30.600 guy that says Cole screw him. That's my fifteen minutes. 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:35.080 They mentioned me mentioned, well, here's the deal, Elliot, cows. 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:37.040 That's how you pronounce it. And that's not what I heard. 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:41.160 You heard wrong. I already pronounced it cows. Yeah, that's 0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:45.720 you know where that comes from? Chris Denham, Probably Chris Denham. 0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:49.680 Chris Denham read um something Richard ockin Fells wrote, and 0:51:49.760 --> 0:51:52.960 Richard ockin Fell's rights In his annotated bibliography of Kyle's 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:56.080 White Tail, he writes, it's it rhymes with house. And 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.600 I asked, I'm friends with I've known Richard for twenty years. 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:00.560 As Richard, where that come him? He said, well, I 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:04.839 talked to Neil Carmeny and um, and I visit Neil 0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:06.880 Carmeny in the nursing home in Tucson every couple of 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:09.200 months I've been I've known for twenty five years. I 0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:11.239 asked Neil, where does that come from? The cows and 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:14.120 he says, I know, we knew somebody that um spoke 0:52:14.200 --> 0:52:16.080 some French. And he says, that's probably how it's pronounced. 0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:18.240 So that's where that's where that cows thing came from. 0:52:18.560 --> 0:52:21.759 Completely bogus. There's no question how to pronounce his name. 0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:24.640 There's a huge question on how people want to refer 0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:27.279 the deer. That's maybe different. Yeah, I think that those 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:30.919 two subjects have their own evolutionary path they do. Okay, 0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:33.000 we go on, you calling whatever the hell you want, ladies, gentlemen. 0:52:33.360 --> 0:52:36.520 If our guest here says cow was dear, he's referring, 0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:41.560 of course, to you, cou's dear. It's really sad. I 0:52:42.400 --> 0:52:48.680 nowhere in I would say linguistical or dud logical history, 0:52:49.000 --> 0:52:52.440 do I know of a word where we're after learning 0:52:52.440 --> 0:52:56.359 how to pronounce it correctly of the public not only 0:52:56.400 --> 0:53:00.680 refuses to, but militantly refuses people. They I die, Yeah, 0:53:00.719 --> 0:53:03.280 they get you know, he has riled up the most 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.719 cows your people. I would call him Cole, I called listen. 0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:09.640 I call him cause you for a simple reason. The 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:11.759 people that introduced me to him and that I hung 0:53:11.760 --> 0:53:13.680 out with and hunted him with first, that's what they 0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:16.200 called him. I actually had Jay Scott's sake Cows on 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:18.080 his podcast one time. When I was on it, I 0:53:18.160 --> 0:53:20.319 was like, did you just say what I thought you said? 0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:23.320 So there's also like, um, you know, there's a spirited 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:28.359 debate around ska sitka, which confuses people because I think 0:53:28.360 --> 0:53:32.759 sick of black tails. Anyhow, Elliot Cows Elliott Cow now 0:53:33.680 --> 0:53:37.239 to put the name pronunciation to bed Elliot Cows. When 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:39.759 he wrote the Checklist of Birds in North America, he 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:42.080 added a footnote he was an ornithologist. He was mostly 0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:44.800 an ornithologist. He never killed a deer. Someone named the 0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:47.680 deer after him, so he wasn't really wasn't a dear guy. 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:50.280 He was really good ecologist. But he wrote the Checklist 0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:52.520 of Birds in North America. And he has a footnote 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:55.640 where he explains how to pronounce his name. No he 0:53:55.719 --> 0:53:58.239 does it says C and he says c O w 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:02.600 Z house. That's a lie, not a lie in black 0:54:02.600 --> 0:54:05.280 and wh okay, here's a twitter. Hell makes a footnote 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:06.960 in their book about how to pronounce their last name. 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:08.920 It was a footnote on a bird species that was 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:13.239 also Cowsy I species. So he was explaining where that 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:15.040 where that name came from, and it was he was 0:54:15.080 --> 0:54:17.600 writing the book and he was explaining how his name 0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:19.879 was pronounced, but kind of pretentious. Okay, so you're right, 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:24.359 you're right, it's Cole's right from Elliott cows Mouth. You're right, 0:54:25.200 --> 0:54:30.400 but we're talking about the deer. Yeah, we're talking about 0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:38.000 he's right. But so yeah, so say that there was 0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:41.000 someone who was who just had made huge contributions to 0:54:41.640 --> 0:54:45.600 outdoor education entertainment, had a podcast, had a TV show, 0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.399 and did so much for the industry that some dear 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:54.080 biologists wanted to name a subspecies after him. Dear Odiocolius 0:54:54.080 --> 0:54:56.800 hemi owners for Nolla. And then so we go in 0:54:56.880 --> 0:54:58.719 the Cal's Deer. You and I go on the time 0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:01.319 machine and we go a hundred years in the future 0:55:01.320 --> 0:55:02.680 and we get out and we talked some deer hunters 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:05.400 and they're talking about, yeah, we're all jack because we 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:09.120 got tags for these rene a dear, you'd be like 0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:13.400 rene a dear French. The guy's name was Renella. The 0:55:13.400 --> 0:55:15.759 guy's name was Renella, and they trug and say, I'm 0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:17.759 gonna call it Renee I tell the day I die. 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.640 He'd be like, it's kind of weird that, my dear, 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:24.000 that's kind of weird. That was like named to honor me, 0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:26.920 and and the deer was named honor Elliot Cows. So no, 0:55:27.080 --> 0:55:28.680 you know what I'd say, I'd be like, no, dude, 0:55:28.680 --> 0:55:32.080 I totally understand. W you I don't think so, I 0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:35.160 don't think so. As a cous dear man, I understand. 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:39.120 But but there's a twist to that story. So Elliot 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:43.040 Cows and Elliet Cows father Samuel and his grandfather Peter, 0:55:44.120 --> 0:55:46.799 they pronounced it cows. He was an ornithologist, not a 0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:50.960 dear guy. But did he like muse on or like, like, uh, 0:55:51.160 --> 0:55:52.960 did he was he like, oh, there's this little ship 0:55:53.040 --> 0:55:55.719 and deer running around or I'm not sure if well 0:55:55.800 --> 0:55:59.640 he did. He wrote Quadrupeds of Our Kinds of Deer 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:02.000 and Error Zone. I think he wrote this great written 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:05.239 about it. I like that word kinds. We talked about 0:56:05.280 --> 0:56:07.360 sub species and races. And he wrote a paper of 0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:11.680 kinds of deer that we do, that whole series kinds 0:56:11.680 --> 0:56:13.640 of So he's written about all kinds of you know, 0:56:13.640 --> 0:56:16.880 all the mammals and deer too, but not in detail. 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:19.719 He wasn't really a dear person um in detail. But 0:56:19.760 --> 0:56:22.920 there's a twist to the cows story. So he Elliott 0:56:22.960 --> 0:56:27.080 cows and and at least two generations back um pronounced 0:56:27.080 --> 0:56:30.200 at cows. But he says that back in France, I 0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:32.160 don't know how many generations that would be we're talking about. 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:35.880 He's a Frenchman from the name is French, and so 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:39.520 his family originally came from northern France moved to southern England. 0:56:39.760 --> 0:56:42.080 And he says in that same footnote when when they 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:46.640 moved to southern England, the name was changed, was changed 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:50.279 or bastardized in and they started pronouncing it cows. And 0:56:50.320 --> 0:56:54.839 in France it was two syllables kuai's. Dad's what I'm 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:57.399 switching too for the deer kuai's. And so if people 0:56:57.440 --> 0:56:59.960 are going to argue that that's their basis for saying coup's, 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:02.239 then I want to hear him saying kuaiz dear. That's 0:57:02.239 --> 0:57:06.000 what I'm switching to get around all of them, like 0:57:06.080 --> 0:57:09.640 hard hitting Arizona flat brim dudes and be like, wait, yeah, 0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:12.680 I'd like to inter rest in these ka I like 0:57:12.760 --> 0:57:15.200 how you held out until you found a reasonable out. 0:57:17.920 --> 0:57:21.880 I can't something contrary, and I need to find a 0:57:21.880 --> 0:57:24.840 way to get out of this. There's some people in 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:29.440 Elliott Cows's family back before him that spelled their name 0:57:29.520 --> 0:57:32.400 CEO w e s instead of you in the middle. 0:57:32.720 --> 0:57:35.600 They put CEO w e s because they were tired 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:39.360 of people misspronouncing it. Cou's probably. I have a newspaper 0:57:39.480 --> 0:57:47.040 article about uh an uncle of mine. No, my father's 0:57:47.160 --> 0:57:52.400 uncle hit a accidentally like crash his car into a 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:58.280 policeman's car. An irishman named Philip to me, and Philip 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:00.240 to me went home and got his pistol and back 0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:02.080 and shot and killed my dad's uncle. I have a 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:04.840 newspaper article about it. But in that article my family 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:10.280 is r I N E l l I uh huh 0:58:10.400 --> 0:58:14.320 so in the article or okay, and that's the only play. Yeah. 0:58:14.360 --> 0:58:16.120 My dad said he grew up with his grandma pulling 0:58:16.160 --> 0:58:18.440 that she kept the clothes in the box, and she 0:58:18.520 --> 0:58:20.840 pulled him down and show everybody the bloody shirt with 0:58:20.920 --> 0:58:23.360 a bullet hole in it. But the article about it 0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:26.720 describes him as with R I N yellow I. So 0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:29.880 he perhaps right, you know, just like people. I'm just 0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:32.000 I'm just coming on the way that names morph and 0:58:32.120 --> 0:58:34.600 change and yeah, and you're like, how like what like 0:58:34.680 --> 0:58:36.840 what pronounced you? What? I mean, how that dude pronounced 0:58:36.840 --> 0:58:38.440 his last name? I don't know, did you say ronella 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:39.920 or do you have some the whole other way of 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:42.880 doing it. My my family was originally from deeked in 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:46.280 Switzerland in the seventeen hundreds and two miles from deek 0:58:46.320 --> 0:58:50.959 in Switzerland is helful thinking helful thinking Switzerland, and there's 0:58:50.960 --> 0:58:52.920 helful fingers back there now and they spell it the 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:55.000 same way, which is kind of unique because names do 0:58:55.200 --> 0:58:58.400 change when they switch continents and things, but still spelt 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:03.840 that way. Uh. Lasting on Elliott Cows, do you understand 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.200 like I read like he was what was his what 0:59:06.280 --> 0:59:09.080 was his thing about levitation that I'd rather he was 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:13.400 into levitation? Levitation? No, I just read that he was. 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:16.920 He's probably on something stupid like his Wikipedia page, but 0:59:17.120 --> 0:59:19.600 read that he's like in into levitation. No, you can 0:59:19.640 --> 0:59:24.160 get the I bought that publication for likes Um online 0:59:24.160 --> 0:59:26.560 on Kindle. I don't know if it's available other places, 0:59:26.560 --> 0:59:29.320 probably other other places, but it's a short thing. It's 0:59:29.320 --> 0:59:30.960 more of a paper than a book, but they make 0:59:31.000 --> 0:59:33.840 it look like it's a book, and it's really entertaining 0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:38.640 because he as a scientist. He's talking about, well, okay, 0:59:38.640 --> 0:59:43.440 people don't believe in levitation, but basically, I we should 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:45.720 hold out the idea that there's a lot of things 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:48.280 in the natural world we don't understand and we can't explain. 0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:51.480 In future research will probably explain it. And he kind 0:59:51.480 --> 0:59:53.680 of felt that way about levitation, that we don't know 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:56.200 what it is now he's been totally swindled by people 0:59:56.240 --> 0:59:58.880 who are levitating in front of him. But he said, 0:59:58.920 --> 1:00:00.960 you know, we don't understand it out, but future, in 1:00:01.000 --> 1:00:04.720 the future, science might might unravel what that's all about. 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:08.560 Because people don't have any problem believing in in centrifugal 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:12.040 force or gravity. Like if he took the Earth and 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:14.680 you spun it wouldn't people levitate because the centrifugal force. 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:17.400 He was talking about these forces as being understood and 1:00:17.720 --> 1:00:20.320 we just don't understand that one. He said. Everybody in 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:24.200 the world, uh, it doesn't believe in levitation, except he 1:00:24.240 --> 1:00:26.600 says Christians, of course, I mean they have no problem 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:29.640 believing that christiscended into Heaven through levitation, So so the 1:00:29.680 --> 1:00:31.880 Christians believe in levitation, so they're open to the idea. 1:00:32.080 --> 1:00:34.760 That's right, that was, says his tongue in cheek. But 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:37.600 he talks in there about he he ends it kind 1:00:37.640 --> 1:00:40.080 of odd. He talks about how his wife, which he 1:00:40.120 --> 1:00:43.040 refers to a Mrs c in there, and and so 1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:48.360 those probably just gave up on that. So he talks 1:00:48.360 --> 1:00:50.959 about his wife and a friend and this big oak table, 1:00:51.000 --> 1:00:52.360 and they put their hands on the table and they 1:00:52.400 --> 1:00:54.720 tried to move it, and the table started bumping and 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:57.680 moving by itself, and you totally convinced that they were 1:00:57.680 --> 1:00:59.560 doing this, And they pulled away from the table, and 1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:03.640 the table kept bumping and being agitated with nobody touching it. 1:01:04.040 --> 1:01:06.480 And then at the end of that kind of bizarre story, 1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:08.160 maybe he was getting seen out at the end of 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:10.600 his career. The end of that story, he says, and 1:01:10.680 --> 1:01:17.760 therein lies my theory of telekinetic levitation. I'nnced. Now it's 1:01:17.760 --> 1:01:21.880 an interesting read, it's pretty entertaining, it's pretty short. Uh, 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:23.760 this is a this is a question that cannot be 1:01:23.800 --> 1:01:29.840 answered to my satisfaction. Um, I'm gonna phrase it in 1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:36.080 an annoying way. Why do dear lose their antlers? Evolutionarily 1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:39.280 or how does it happen? When it happened? Why do 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:42.040 they evolutionarily? Why why should then? Yeah, I say it's 1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:44.720 annoying because you can't go like, we don't know why 1:01:44.960 --> 1:01:48.560 you We could speculate about things that may have. Right, 1:01:48.760 --> 1:01:51.200 there's some good reasons to lose antlers. You break a time, 1:01:51.280 --> 1:01:53.640 you got a new set next year. That's a great horn. 1:01:53.680 --> 1:01:55.480 You don't get a new set, No, you don't. But 1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:57.520 they're not gonna break as much as times though. You 1:01:57.520 --> 1:02:00.960 know you'll broom the tips off and sinicize, and that 1:02:01.040 --> 1:02:04.120 would that really drive No, I'm not alone. I don't think, 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:07.040 not alone, but you know, you think if you're over 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:09.960 wintering and you're trying to make it through winter on 1:02:10.000 --> 1:02:12.400 harsh winter range and through deep snow, be nice not 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:14.760 to have, especially a moose, those big bones on your head. 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:17.520 I mean they're being an advantage to to losing those 1:02:17.600 --> 1:02:19.760 during the wintertime. But you can't beat the hell out 1:02:19.760 --> 1:02:21.640 of stuff trying to kill you. No, tell you what 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:27.440 the answer is probably is let's go nutritional signaling. And 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:30.880 you've heard about that work. It gives you and it 1:02:30.920 --> 1:02:35.600 gives the animal an annual expression of its physical condition 1:02:35.680 --> 1:02:39.080 and its fitness for females to select the animals they 1:02:39.080 --> 1:02:41.840 are able to acquire the most resources, grow the biggest 1:02:41.840 --> 1:02:45.680 antlers because they're they're luxury organs. They grow after the 1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:48.920 body has been satisfied the nutritions. Yeah, like the difference 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:52.160 in driving a car or having a picture of a 1:02:52.200 --> 1:02:55.800 sweet car you used to have. It sounds like a 1:02:55.800 --> 1:03:02.160 personal story, okay, But but here you've got an annual 1:03:02.200 --> 1:03:06.520 expression of of how fit you are, and it's up 1:03:06.520 --> 1:03:09.080 to the minute and and getting bigger every year. You 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:11.160 don't as a yearling, yearling moose, you don't want to 1:03:11.160 --> 1:03:15.520 grow this gigantic fifty um set of antlers. But here, annually, 1:03:15.920 --> 1:03:18.280 as your body grows and as you get no more 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:21.880 nutrition and maybe become dominant, you can you can express 1:03:21.960 --> 1:03:24.640 that and say, look, ladies, look at look at I got. Yeah, 1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:27.720 but horned, here's the problem with that. Horned animals have 1:03:27.840 --> 1:03:31.600 the same luxury. They just keep growing, right. But there's 1:03:31.640 --> 1:03:34.320 sometimes where it's like a two year old big horn 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:37.960 is gonna wind up having the biggest horns ever. It's 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:41.160 like a big ass horned big horn is old. Mm hmm. 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:44.960 They you know, servants, the dear Family evolved in Asia, 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:49.560 bob is evolved don't know where, probably Europe someplace. And 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:52.360 so the the animals get on these different evolutionary tracks 1:03:52.400 --> 1:03:56.280 and you get you get characteristics that just develop independently 1:03:56.320 --> 1:03:59.360 and and and now looking at them now, they may 1:03:59.360 --> 1:04:01.960 not make sense when you compare them, like what you're 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:06.080 saying that they just had They just had different um pathways. 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:10.800 There's a procolius in in Asia. Some fossils were Looking 1:04:10.840 --> 1:04:13.439 at a set of fossils, it looks like at least 1:04:13.480 --> 1:04:16.360 that was the conclusion. Some of them shed their antlers 1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:19.000 every year and some of them didn't in that form. 1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:21.520 And so that's thought of as maybe being the root 1:04:21.640 --> 1:04:24.200 of the servant family, of the deer family. That's right 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:26.360 at the point where animals have these things on their 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:29.360 heads and then they're dropping off every year or not 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:33.360 dropping off every year. We had a really really neat 1:04:33.920 --> 1:04:38.040 kind of expression of the the you know, the health 1:04:38.040 --> 1:04:41.680 of the animal being represented in the antlers. Um sam 1:04:41.760 --> 1:04:46.760 baits producer here at meat Eater. She shout her first 1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:51.600 mule deer buck and it was a really neat buck 1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:56.800 and everything about it. From my look at the deer, 1:04:56.840 --> 1:04:59.080 it was like, boy, this is a mature deer. The 1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:01.280 antlers aren't that big big, and they're kind of an 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:07.880 interesting formation, and uh, you could have laid uh, you know, 1:05:08.640 --> 1:05:11.560 two year old deer next to this, probably three or 1:05:11.640 --> 1:05:14.000 four year old deer, and the two year old deer 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:18.440 would have bigger antlers um. But then when he started 1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:20.640 dressing the deer, the deer had been shot the year before. 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:25.160 There's also leg injuries. Front leg injuries will produce a 1:05:25.200 --> 1:05:27.440 non typical point on the same side as the front 1:05:27.520 --> 1:05:31.960 leg injury. Rear leg injuries. You say that like opposite, No, 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:34.280 not always, but oh you know, I knew. I thought 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:36.200 it was always opposite. I didn't know his front leg 1:05:36.440 --> 1:05:39.440 front leg is the same side. It's called a contralateral effect. 1:05:39.520 --> 1:05:42.280 And and so the rear leg or left rear lego 1:05:42.360 --> 1:05:45.360 producer um messed up at around the on the right 1:05:45.400 --> 1:05:47.400 side the next year. So a lot of theories are 1:05:47.480 --> 1:05:49.920 like some kind of counterbalancing, which doesn't make a lot 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:52.480 of sense. Some people some tell you, well, the deer 1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:55.160 is probably back there licking his injury and he's damaging 1:05:55.280 --> 1:05:58.480 that opposite side antler. But I think it's more neurological. 1:05:58.560 --> 1:06:01.640 I think it's the way the right rain um manages 1:06:01.680 --> 1:06:04.440 the left side of the body and vice versa. I 1:06:04.560 --> 1:06:07.640 think it's something with that damage to the left side 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:13.240 of your leg is neurologically affecting the other side. Um okay, 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:15.640 so tell me why they how they lose their antlers? 1:06:16.640 --> 1:06:18.840 What's going on? One minute're kicking ass, You've got some antlers. 1:06:18.880 --> 1:06:22.000 You're fighting? Yeah, I mean you can pick up you 1:06:22.040 --> 1:06:25.320 can pick up the animal by the and then and 1:06:25.400 --> 1:06:29.120 then the the after the breeding season, to stosterone levels, 1:06:29.280 --> 1:06:31.760 mostly to stoster and a lot of other hormones. There's 1:06:31.760 --> 1:06:33.960 this big orchestra of hormones rising and falling throughout the 1:06:34.040 --> 1:06:36.440 year in a in a deer, but really to stosterone 1:06:36.480 --> 1:06:38.800 is a driver. And after the breeding season to stosterone 1:06:38.880 --> 1:06:42.840 levels plummet. And it's that that plummeting of testosterone. There's 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:47.360 this this certain layer of bone cells between the temporary 1:06:47.360 --> 1:06:50.120 antler material and the top of the pedicle. It's called 1:06:50.200 --> 1:06:53.920 osteo class, and they're real sensitive to hormonal changes and 1:06:53.960 --> 1:06:58.600 then dropping to stosterone erodes those osteo class and antlers 1:06:58.640 --> 1:07:01.760 just fall off. They must be strong sons of bitches though. Yeah, right, 1:07:03.320 --> 1:07:06.640 Like you've seen deer, like you could hit a deer 1:07:06.720 --> 1:07:09.360 on the antler sometimes break the skull and it busts 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:14.160 the skull in half. M Yeah, but then a dropping testosterone, 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:17.520 a hormonal shift will cause whatever that glue is off 1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:21.760 and that doesn't take that long. I mean he's kicking 1:07:21.760 --> 1:07:24.480 as November, then a couple months later his antler falls off. 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:29.560 Yelping and growing new ones in a couple of months 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:33.760 prior to November. You could squeeze the tip of those 1:07:33.760 --> 1:07:37.080 antlers off your hands, get blood on your hands. I've 1:07:37.120 --> 1:07:41.000 talked to a number of guys have gone up, remember 1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:43.560 the circumstances going up and grabbed the deer to dragon, 1:07:43.640 --> 1:07:46.760 had the antler come off in her hand. It was happening. 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:50.920 Shed antlers quicker if they're nutritionally depraved or if they 1:07:51.000 --> 1:07:53.680 get sick or something. I don't really cause that, it messes. 1:07:53.720 --> 1:07:55.560 It just kind of messes with their hormone system and 1:07:56.400 --> 1:07:58.920 may lose their the sauceron may go down quicker just 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:02.200 because they're kind of sick. What do you think it 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:06.720 takes um? You know, people talk about areas of big Bucks, 1:08:07.960 --> 1:08:11.920 and you know what, when I was like coming up 1:08:11.960 --> 1:08:15.360 as a young man, everybody was excited about the genetics 1:08:15.920 --> 1:08:19.960 that place got great genetics, right, And then we talked 1:08:20.000 --> 1:08:22.599 to some guys. You've done some work with Matt Coffin 1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:29.000 and and his colleague Kevin. Kevin looks at nutrition, and 1:08:29.240 --> 1:08:32.599 they've done studies have taken deer from supposedly shitty genetic 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:38.080 areas or supposedly stupendous genetic areas, changing changing their diet 1:08:38.200 --> 1:08:42.320 to match diet of deer from areas that are contradictory 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:45.200 to that, meaning like you take a deer from an 1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:48.240 area that supposed he has shitty genetics and put it 1:08:48.360 --> 1:08:50.679 on the same diet as a deer from an area 1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:53.200 that suppose he has great genetics, and lone behold, they 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:57.200 went looking exactly the same. And he got into and 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:00.599 we discussed like, not only is it that animal is nutrition, 1:09:01.040 --> 1:09:05.040 but it's the nutrition of its mother when she becomes pregnant, right, 1:09:05.360 --> 1:09:07.320 and his aunt, Like whether he's going to be a 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:11.040 stomp or buck could be decided by the condition of 1:09:11.160 --> 1:09:13.240 his mother when she becomes pregnant. It could, Yeah, it 1:09:13.240 --> 1:09:15.680 can be decided condition of his mother right before she 1:09:15.720 --> 1:09:18.040 becomes pregnant, the condition she's in when she becomes pregnant. 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:21.640 Epigenetics that probably epigenetic it's a maternal effect, is what 1:09:21.920 --> 1:09:24.720 Kevin research and talked about. Probably there's a thing called 1:09:24.760 --> 1:09:28.400 epigenetics that is kind of a new field or finding someone. 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:32.040 Not we but there's some amazing things where an animal 1:09:32.160 --> 1:09:35.320 has genetics and passes on the genetic code. And we 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:38.880 always thought of it, like Gregor Mendel, Mendelian genetics was 1:09:39.000 --> 1:09:42.040 just like whatever genes you had, that's what got expressed 1:09:42.040 --> 1:09:46.000 in the young. We're finding out that environmental influences like 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:49.840 nutrition can actually switch genes on and off. So so 1:09:49.880 --> 1:09:52.519 the genetic code doesn't change because it can't change, but 1:09:52.680 --> 1:09:55.400 which genes get expressed and turned on and off can 1:09:55.520 --> 1:09:58.880 change depending on if if you've got good nutrition or 1:09:58.920 --> 1:10:03.240 poor nutrition, And so really amazing things where it looks 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:07.200 like it's actually genetic effects, but it's the genes are 1:10:07.240 --> 1:10:09.800 the same, there's just more different ones are active. It's 1:10:09.800 --> 1:10:14.040 really amazing, amazing stuff, certainly not my expertise, but cool stuff. 1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:16.080 And that's probably what's behind this maternal effect where the 1:10:16.160 --> 1:10:20.040 condition of the female can can actually affect the antlers 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:24.280 of her male offspring when they're mature, because it's certain, yeah, 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.559 it's got enough enough gas for certain things to kick 1:10:27.640 --> 1:10:30.640 in or it turns on. It's the methylation process. And 1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:32.439 I only sund that to to sound smart because I 1:10:32.439 --> 1:10:35.280 don't know anything about the methylation process. But that's the 1:10:35.479 --> 1:10:39.920 vehicle um in in the DNA transcription that turned genes 1:10:40.000 --> 1:10:41.840 on and off. And that's what's at the heart of that. 1:10:42.439 --> 1:10:44.800 If you took what's your theory on this? And why 1:10:44.840 --> 1:10:48.200 hasn't someone done yet? Get yourself a couple cuz dear 1:10:50.240 --> 1:10:55.200 bring them up to Iowa. What happens to him? Do 1:10:55.320 --> 1:10:56.920 they just die because they don't like it? Because it's 1:10:57.439 --> 1:10:59.760 they get bigger, They would get bigger. Nobody's done it 1:11:00.080 --> 1:11:03.240 UM that I know of, because c w D don't 1:11:03.240 --> 1:11:06.439 want to be moving animals around, you can't, you know. 1:11:06.640 --> 1:11:09.200 We had a we had a conversation with someone at UM, 1:11:10.200 --> 1:11:12.519 someone who does some work with Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:14.360 was talking about with c w D just like the 1:11:14.439 --> 1:11:18.719 whole thing of like moving out. It's just done, man, Yeah, 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:21.360 but do we need to move much? I mean we're 1:11:21.360 --> 1:11:27.800 still really now. It's unfinished work man. Yeah, but that's 1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:34.360 a that's a concern to move the the habituated Elk 1:11:35.040 --> 1:11:37.560 out of the state. And they had to that that 1:11:37.720 --> 1:11:40.519 lucky elk that somebody chose to feed is now at 1:11:40.720 --> 1:11:48.400 the Veterinary Research Station, full full life. So they get bigger, 1:11:48.439 --> 1:11:50.639 they would get bigger. Yeah, I don't you know there 1:11:50.720 --> 1:11:53.960 would they stop being the gray ghost. I don't good 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:55.880 question what their pellege would do, whether you get like 1:11:55.920 --> 1:11:58.240 a rusty red coat in the summer, which we normally 1:11:58.280 --> 1:12:01.600 don't get. But I don't there. They're they've been so separated, 1:12:01.640 --> 1:12:05.240 and they're good legitimate subspecies. They're smaller. We did some 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:08.080 genetic work. Bunda Crockett and Pope and Young paid for 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:11.160 some genetic work that I orchestrated with some real geneticist 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:14.120 where we found a genetic marker that will identify a 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:16.280 cow's white tailed deer from the other white tailed deer. 1:12:16.600 --> 1:12:19.160 So you could bring me a rack of skull plate 1:12:19.520 --> 1:12:21.160 and we could test that and tell whether it's Cole's 1:12:21.160 --> 1:12:22.519 white til or not. And Buona Crowt and Pope and 1:12:22.560 --> 1:12:24.719 Young are using that to keep their record books clean. 1:12:24.800 --> 1:12:28.439 Now someone enters the new world record cow's white tail, 1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:30.599 and it's a skullplate that Grandpa had in the attic 1:12:30.680 --> 1:12:34.240 and Grandpa sett he shot it south of Tucson back 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:36.240 and this has happened, and we do a genetic test 1:12:36.320 --> 1:12:41.040 and yeah, family stories sometimes get twisted and chains, and 1:12:41.120 --> 1:12:43.280 so we've done that and we've found some of these 1:12:43.280 --> 1:12:45.120 animals they're not cow's white tail, and so they're not 1:12:45.200 --> 1:12:48.599 they can't be included. That's a bomber man. Someone gets 1:12:48.600 --> 1:12:50.760 confused about the butt grampa shot in Alberta and the 1:12:50.800 --> 1:12:57.200 bucket shot in Arizona. That's what it is. Uh, we 1:12:57.280 --> 1:12:58.599 had the thing where we were You wanted to bring 1:12:58.680 --> 1:13:02.599 up something about Neanderthals. Why, yeah, I didn't. I've sent 1:13:02.640 --> 1:13:05.000 you a bunch of the Ndfel papers just because you 1:13:05.400 --> 1:13:07.479 are you interested. I think it's just you and I 1:13:07.520 --> 1:13:10.120 are in the same boat, were interested spectators and what 1:13:10.280 --> 1:13:12.760 the scientists are doing. But the reason why, be the 1:13:12.840 --> 1:13:16.560 reason I'm when Neanderthal man is uh into him is 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:23.679 because in my life, they have gone from these crude 1:13:25.040 --> 1:13:28.720 right and these crude like you know, you know, like 1:13:28.880 --> 1:13:31.000 beating their lady over there on the rock and dragging 1:13:31.040 --> 1:13:36.360 her home kind of thing, to being just increasingly complex 1:13:36.439 --> 1:13:40.880 and sophisticated. And it's oh, they were free divers. They 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:43.360 built a raft and I was like, yeah, they were 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:47.880 having free divers. They had art. They like to carve things. 1:13:48.280 --> 1:13:49.880 I was so I was trying to get cal that 1:13:49.960 --> 1:13:52.600 put a thing in Cal's weekend review where um, I 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:54.840 had a whole joke crafted up for Calvity, wouldn't use it. 1:13:56.920 --> 1:13:58.560 I was waiting for the story. I wasn't even the 1:13:58.600 --> 1:14:00.240 story to come out where it was review old that 1:14:00.320 --> 1:14:05.080 Neanderthals had laptops. They don't happen, because every story about 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:08.400 in Airthals now is like, oh, they were just great, 1:14:08.600 --> 1:14:13.559 nice people, nice smart people. Doing start testing this out 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:17.479 by every time you see somebody eating oysters, you stare 1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:20.920 at him and you go, you neander Well, they're two 1:14:20.960 --> 1:14:24.120 percent of VIRGINO. Well, I'm a little bit Well do 1:14:24.160 --> 1:14:26.040 you have you done twenty three? No? I did the 1:14:26.080 --> 1:14:28.479 other one. I'm a little less than less than average 1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:32.599 on Neanderthal Rogan. I had a good laugh. Joe Rogan, 1:14:32.720 --> 1:14:38.080 he's like running ahead. He's running heavy. That's not surprising. 1:14:38.200 --> 1:14:42.040 It's a sanginal crest and the eyebrows. I think it's 1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:45.600 rather real heavy. He was saying, But you know that 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:53.680 that miniature hominid that they found in Flores Island, Yeah, Florences. 1:14:54.680 --> 1:14:57.160 I think I'm missing a syllable. But three ft tall 1:14:57.680 --> 1:15:01.320 at maturity. They're running on almost all all Neanderthal and 1:15:01.439 --> 1:15:04.800 Denisovan jeans or genetics. I mean they come from that 1:15:04.880 --> 1:15:09.599 Neanderthal stock, not from modern human stock. Yeah. At once 1:15:09.680 --> 1:15:11.400 upon a time, you could have walked. You could have 1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:16.840 wandered around Southern Europe Mediterranean area, and just like you 1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:19.599 can wander around um here and be like, oh, there's 1:15:19.600 --> 1:15:21.320 a black tail deer. Oh there's mild deer. There's a 1:15:21.320 --> 1:15:23.679 white tail, there's a couzier. How did these all fit together? 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:27.080 You could have roamed the land and run into like 1:15:27.360 --> 1:15:30.960 different kinds of different folks. Yeah, different kind of folks 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:37.320 did some amount of love making multiple time. But paper 1:15:37.439 --> 1:15:39.680 just came out with the Neanderthal showing that wasn't just 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:42.200 one kind of unique population where they interbred and it 1:15:42.240 --> 1:15:45.000 spread out from there. But it was a real complex 1:15:45.760 --> 1:15:48.519 over a long period of time, thousands and thousands, probably 1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:50.880 hundreds of thousands, well at least tens of thousands of years, 1:15:51.280 --> 1:15:54.040 a whole bunch of different interbreeding events between and that 1:15:54.840 --> 1:15:59.880 and really messing with people or not into it people. 1:16:00.040 --> 1:16:03.559 Would you coming from one spot, would you like trying 1:16:03.600 --> 1:16:09.519 to pick up other species? You're saying could as if 1:16:09.560 --> 1:16:12.120 it's past tense. I feel like you're trying to call 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:15.640 me out here. Probably like back in the day you 1:16:15.640 --> 1:16:17.160 would have been like, I'm gonna go check out that 1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:21.720 other camp. What are those anyway? Yeah? I think so, 1:16:21.920 --> 1:16:25.439 I'm gonna bring a some cookies over there. And we're 1:16:25.439 --> 1:16:30.000 speaking past tense hypothetically. Back then, people with all the 1:16:30.040 --> 1:16:33.960 oysters and muscles and doing the free diving a pretty 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:36.120 good crew. Kind of small? Was it the was it 1:16:36.200 --> 1:16:39.000 the unattractive modern humans though, that were more likely to 1:16:39.080 --> 1:16:41.439 breed with Andrew? I would love to know man, and 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:43.760 I'd like know like when they sat around talking or 1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:46.800 they talking about how you know, like, was it like 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:53.320 if you were krol Magnet or you know, and you 1:16:53.439 --> 1:16:55.560 hooked up with the Neanderthal? Was it like did you 1:16:55.720 --> 1:17:00.120 try to like keep quiet about it right, We're like wow, know? 1:17:00.760 --> 1:17:04.120 Or did you brag it up? I would load? No, 1:17:06.000 --> 1:17:09.160 I got along with the time activities. I'll be engaging 1:17:09.200 --> 1:17:14.000 in some day. Um. Yeah. Did you have any burning 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:17.120 observation about him? No? I just just like them. I 1:17:17.240 --> 1:17:19.320 like that the h is back in the name, you know, 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:21.519 it was Neanderthal. And then for a period of time 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:25.200 someone said neander tall because because it's it's the cow's 1:17:25.600 --> 1:17:29.160 dealing because damn valley in Germany. I don't give what 1:17:29.240 --> 1:17:32.040 they call their value. But but not all the papers 1:17:32.080 --> 1:17:34.040 have the H back in though. That was good because 1:17:34.120 --> 1:17:36.400 it was kind of awkward to say. I never know 1:17:36.479 --> 1:17:39.120 what to do in those circumstances, man, like how I 1:17:39.160 --> 1:17:43.040 went to switch. I've switched to pronghorn, trying to switch. 1:17:43.520 --> 1:17:47.519 I even labeled my meat pronghorn. No, it confuses people. Yeah, 1:17:47.560 --> 1:17:51.040 you don't believe me, you go look hell yeah, And 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:54.519 I've given it to people and they've registered confusion. Really, 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:57.360 that's so funny. You don't label your packages prong horn. 1:17:57.760 --> 1:18:03.680 I do not. They don't antilo capra on my go. 1:18:05.439 --> 1:18:08.559 You know, there was eighteen eighteen different types of primitive 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:12.840 antilo capra pronghorn families in North America eighteen million years ago. 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:16.360 For eighteen million years, we had eighteen different types of 1:18:16.400 --> 1:18:19.559 prong worns. Some had corkscrew horn corps, some had three 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:22.640 horn cores on both sides, six total horn cores. A 1:18:22.720 --> 1:18:25.040 lot of them had two on each side. I wrote 1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:30.360 a field guide it's called a Bestieri of Ancestral antilocaporates 1:18:30.680 --> 1:18:35.240 and it's illustration, wrote that, yeah, with another machine man. 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:38.479 Well that's interesting stuff. Eighteen different kinds of prong worn 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:41.120 and they all went extinct except for the American pronghorn 1:18:41.200 --> 1:18:43.599 that we have. And so we had illustrations that Randy 1:18:43.640 --> 1:18:47.760 bab did illustrations of each one of those skulls. And 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:50.519 then I wrote a paragraph which was anything we knew 1:18:50.560 --> 1:18:52.200 about it. And we had a map of where the 1:18:52.240 --> 1:18:54.000 fossils have been found, so it was like a little 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:58.240 field guide. How far are you, Florida. There's different kinds 1:18:58.240 --> 1:19:00.960 always over there. If you would have named it kinds 1:19:01.520 --> 1:19:04.880 of a kind of you would have been on the 1:19:04.920 --> 1:19:07.559 same shelf. You know. Whenever I started getting depressed about 1:19:07.880 --> 1:19:10.840 all the animals aren't around anymore, I always to help 1:19:11.000 --> 1:19:14.839 not be depressed, I remind myself that the largest animal 1:19:15.040 --> 1:19:21.280 to ever exist larger than the biggest of Brontosaurus or 1:19:21.560 --> 1:19:25.639 argent two soaurus, the biggest animal to ever have ever 1:19:25.880 --> 1:19:30.479 existed on Earth. Right now, it's still here, right, We're 1:19:30.479 --> 1:19:34.680 in the good old days. The biggest animal ever is 1:19:34.760 --> 1:19:37.320 here right now, the good old days of megafono. We've 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:41.439 got them now. Yeah, Because you get looking at my 1:19:41.520 --> 1:19:44.000 kids like dinosaur books and I need to look at that. 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:46.639 I'm like man kind of little jealous about that. Oh 1:19:46.920 --> 1:19:50.439 so jealous. I just to lay eyes and get your 1:19:50.479 --> 1:19:53.960 brain wrapped around the scale. I want, I want it. 1:19:54.160 --> 1:19:55.680 We talked a lot about whether they have been a 1:19:55.680 --> 1:19:58.960 good eating or not. One of my kids thinks they 1:19:59.000 --> 1:20:00.360 would have been on one of the things. They wouldn't 1:20:00.360 --> 1:20:04.519 have been very good eating. Yeah, I don't know. Reptile Like, Okay, 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:07.519 moving on, this is a little bit I want to 1:20:07.560 --> 1:20:09.960 talk about, like you really mixed up in the wolf world. 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:14.160 I am. Yeah. I would put on the Mexican wolf 1:20:14.200 --> 1:20:18.160 Recovery team in December and was on it for two years. 1:20:18.240 --> 1:20:22.920 Resigned in December of UM and with my resignation letter 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:26.439 added ah about a fourteen page report sighting all of 1:20:26.520 --> 1:20:31.120 the scientific process flaws that were that I saw in 1:20:31.760 --> 1:20:33.679 the writing of what was supposed to be the draft 1:20:33.760 --> 1:20:35.479 recovery plan at that time. That's what we were put 1:20:35.520 --> 1:20:38.560 together for a couple of months later, the remainder of 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:42.439 the team UM went had and submitted a report had 1:20:42.520 --> 1:20:45.160 so many flaws. As I pointed out, Fish and Wilad 1:20:45.200 --> 1:20:47.479 Servis couldn't do anything with it. They couldn't they couldn't 1:20:47.479 --> 1:20:51.840 make that their their draft plan. Um. They just stakeholders 1:20:51.840 --> 1:20:55.479 weren't involved. State agencies were just seen as, uh, maybe 1:20:55.520 --> 1:20:58.560 stakeholders will we'll talk to you later. Um. And it 1:20:58.600 --> 1:21:02.360 went nowhere. So back away up They're like, what's the problem, 1:21:02.439 --> 1:21:05.680 Like what happened we used to have? I mean, the 1:21:05.800 --> 1:21:08.080 wolves were like continue they had them in Alaska. There 1:21:08.160 --> 1:21:10.320 was no like place without them. They just ran all 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:13.840 right down into Mexico. And people mistakenly just think about 1:21:13.880 --> 1:21:18.160 the Mexican wolf as um just the southern part of 1:21:18.280 --> 1:21:21.599 a blending of different wolf sizes and wolf subspecies throughout 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:24.400 the continent. We used to have a twenty four wolf 1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:27.920 subspecies in North America and Rohn no Wack boiled that 1:21:28.040 --> 1:21:31.360 down to five that seemed ecologically different in different areas. 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:36.679 Um Arctic, well, there was a um occide and Talus, 1:21:36.720 --> 1:21:39.320 which is a big Canadian wolf, and in Alaska and 1:21:39.360 --> 1:21:41.320 then New Bliss, which is mid continent most of the 1:21:41.400 --> 1:21:44.880 United States, and then Bailey I, which is the Mexican wolf, 1:21:45.320 --> 1:21:51.280 and then there was the Arctic wolf and I can't 1:21:51.320 --> 1:21:52.800 remember what the other one one. In the Arctic wolves 1:21:52.800 --> 1:21:55.519 they run white a fair bit, yea, yea. And so 1:21:55.720 --> 1:21:59.000 the Canadian down in the Canadian High Arctic, Elsmere Island 1:21:59.040 --> 1:22:01.519 and that sort of thing. And so so these are 1:22:01.600 --> 1:22:03.760 kind of groups of wolves that it kind of makes sense. 1:22:04.120 --> 1:22:07.960 The Mexican wolf is not just the southern tip of 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:12.559 a big wolf distribution that blended um freely with New Bliss, 1:22:12.600 --> 1:22:15.160 the other wolf to the north. The Mexican wolf evolved 1:22:15.200 --> 1:22:17.439 in the Sierra Madre, like we're talking about white tails. 1:22:17.760 --> 1:22:22.000 And that's another reason Mexican wolves are physically different. They're 1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:25.559 genetically different. They're the most genetically different wolf subspecies when 1:22:25.600 --> 1:22:28.719 they look at genetics. But they weren't just in Mexico, 1:22:29.520 --> 1:22:32.519 and they were only in Mexico and the Sky Islands 1:22:32.560 --> 1:22:35.439 in southern Arizona and southwestern New Mexico. That was the 1:22:35.520 --> 1:22:38.639 historical range of the Mexican wolf. Some of those almost 1:22:38.680 --> 1:22:43.360 overlaps with Cosier and and Got and Got Turkey and 1:22:43.479 --> 1:22:48.560 so and and evolutionary ecologists will talk about subspecies just 1:22:48.680 --> 1:22:50.880 have more support when there's a whole bunch of other 1:22:51.040 --> 1:22:54.160 unrelated animals that have that same distribution. It just makes 1:22:54.200 --> 1:22:57.840 sense that there are some ecological forces that allowed those 1:22:57.920 --> 1:23:01.679 animals of different types to to evolve a little bit differently. 1:23:01.720 --> 1:23:04.640 As a subspecies, and in that same range you have 1:23:04.760 --> 1:23:08.679 this like very different type of turkey, very different type 1:23:08.680 --> 1:23:10.479 of deer, very different type of quail. And if you 1:23:10.520 --> 1:23:14.000 look at ecological zones plants in the plant community, that 1:23:14.160 --> 1:23:17.040 that whole Um Madri and oak woodland, they call it 1:23:17.400 --> 1:23:19.920 that the Sierra Madre is is typical of is different 1:23:19.960 --> 1:23:22.599 than the Muggian rim in northern Arizona northern New Mexico. 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:24.960 So it all makes sense that and and all of 1:23:25.080 --> 1:23:29.760 the about twenty different mammalogists and ecologists subscribe abscribe the 1:23:29.960 --> 1:23:34.040 Mexican wolf historical range like that southern Arizona, southern New 1:23:34.080 --> 1:23:36.519 Mexico and all of the Sierra Madre. Now, some of 1:23:36.560 --> 1:23:39.120 the Mexican wolves skull measurements have shown that some of 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:41.760 the Mexican wolves would disperse up into the Muggian rim 1:23:41.840 --> 1:23:44.120 like you would expect to the Muggian rims central Arizona 1:23:44.360 --> 1:23:47.439 and the Healand National Forest in central New Mexico. So 1:23:47.560 --> 1:23:50.360 some of the Mexican wolves dispersed up there. Those wolves 1:23:50.400 --> 1:23:53.920 in northern Arizona northern New Mexico were measurably larger. The 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:56.680 skull measurements everything were larger, and they some of those 1:23:56.760 --> 1:23:59.040 would dispersed down the Muggian rim. If you look at 1:23:59.120 --> 1:24:02.360 the like Google Earth and you just zoom out, you 1:24:02.439 --> 1:24:05.040 see the Sierra Madrea, this big green patch where the 1:24:05.200 --> 1:24:08.599 Mexican wolf was, and then the southern Rockies is another 1:24:08.760 --> 1:24:11.960 huge green patch. And in between there there's this healand 1:24:12.040 --> 1:24:15.439 national force Muggian rim with non wolf habitat to the 1:24:15.520 --> 1:24:17.439 north of it, non wolf habitat to the south of it. 1:24:17.560 --> 1:24:21.559 So Mexican wolves dispersed up, bigger wolves, neubialists dispersed south, 1:24:21.960 --> 1:24:24.880 and those wolves from skull measurements, those wolves in the 1:24:25.040 --> 1:24:28.200 central Arizona, New Mexico are intermediate in size. Actually, the 1:24:28.760 --> 1:24:31.280 males group better with Mexican wolves down there, and the 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:33.680 females group with the northern wolves. Con indication that they 1:24:33.720 --> 1:24:36.519 were intermediate between those two forms. So we did have 1:24:36.640 --> 1:24:39.640 some geographic separation which accounts for the genetic differences of 1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:43.280 physical differences in Mexican wolves. They're not just um some 1:24:43.439 --> 1:24:46.040 subspecies that's blending in with all the other subspecies. There's 1:24:46.080 --> 1:24:49.120 some reasons why they're geographically and and all those other 1:24:49.160 --> 1:24:53.720 reasons why they're different. Uh, give me the pros and 1:24:53.800 --> 1:24:55.880 cons as much as you're comfortable, Like, what are the 1:24:55.920 --> 1:24:59.840 pros and cons with trying to bring them back? I 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:02.759 think they I mean, Mexican wolves were a native wildlife 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:06.640 species um in the Southwest, and I think if if 1:25:06.720 --> 1:25:08.439 we as hunters are going to thump our chest and 1:25:08.479 --> 1:25:11.760 talk about out bringing elk back and bringing turkeys back 1:25:11.840 --> 1:25:15.000 and all these species that we call unendangered, we can't 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:17.200 stop at the predators. I mean, I just think it 1:25:17.240 --> 1:25:19.280 makes sense. We just need to they have a place 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.040 in the in the Southwest, and and we need to 1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:24.240 be working to bring them back. Most of the public 1:25:24.760 --> 1:25:26.920 thinks bowls are pretty cool. They want to see wolves back, 1:25:27.439 --> 1:25:30.160 and so as hunters do we really want to position 1:25:30.200 --> 1:25:32.360 ourselves on the other side of the table from them 1:25:32.400 --> 1:25:34.519 and say, no, we don't want to bring wolves back 1:25:34.720 --> 1:25:37.800 because um, they eat elk and we want to hunt 1:25:37.840 --> 1:25:40.559 out might impact our elk counting. So there's some real 1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:43.519 challenges with bringing wolves back, but that doesn't mean we 1:25:43.560 --> 1:25:45.479 shouldn't do it. We we need to have programs to 1:25:45.520 --> 1:25:49.240 work with lifetock industry to to make sure those operators 1:25:49.360 --> 1:25:52.000 and it's usually only a few operators that are uh 1:25:52.120 --> 1:25:54.639 impacted heavily, but those that are impact heavily. We should 1:25:54.640 --> 1:25:57.000 have programs that help them out. We can't just say, well, 1:25:57.080 --> 1:25:58.960 you're a grazing on public land and we're gonna bring 1:25:59.000 --> 1:26:00.519 wols back and we don't care about what happens to you. 1:26:00.720 --> 1:26:02.200 We need to work with them where it's not gonna 1:26:02.240 --> 1:26:05.160 work at all. And as far as the big game populations, 1:26:06.040 --> 1:26:10.120 you when where we have wolves, we have some hotspots 1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:13.160 where wolves have impact elk populations and we need to 1:26:13.200 --> 1:26:16.439 have management flexibility to do something about that when that happens. 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:18.679 Predators have to be managed just like we managed prey. 1:26:19.120 --> 1:26:22.240 But in a lot of areas, wolves are back on 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:25.439 the landscape and they're not heavily impacting elk populations, and 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:27.560 so I just think we need to make room for 1:26:27.960 --> 1:26:30.120 for wolves on the on the landscape. They belong here. 1:26:30.720 --> 1:26:35.920 You know, you've been involved in state wildlife for your career. 1:26:37.120 --> 1:26:39.559 There's a lot of tension between it seizes, a lot 1:26:39.600 --> 1:26:41.320 of not seems. I mean there there is. There's a 1:26:41.360 --> 1:26:44.479 lot of tension between federal wildlife management decisions and state 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:48.519 wildlife management decisions. Um, do you think it's fair to say, 1:26:48.960 --> 1:26:52.240 just look back at at American history, it's fair to 1:26:52.320 --> 1:26:58.439 say that if there was no federal oversight of endangered species, 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:02.200 and there was no federal wildlife involvement. It would be 1:27:02.680 --> 1:27:07.280 fair to say that it wouldn't have happened there were 1:27:07.360 --> 1:27:09.320 We wouldn't have done any real we wouldn't have done 1:27:09.360 --> 1:27:12.840 any active reintroduction efforts that would have been at to 1:27:13.000 --> 1:27:16.280 this point in time that would have been spawned by 1:27:16.360 --> 1:27:19.519 the states. And talking about wolves specifically, yeah, yeah, I 1:27:19.600 --> 1:27:21.760 think I think it's something that's been, like for better 1:27:21.880 --> 1:27:25.160 or worse, the state's top now And when I talked 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:27.639 poorly about the when I was on the Mexican wolf 1:27:27.760 --> 1:27:32.000 recovery team and that effort, we reinitiated that in two 1:27:32.080 --> 1:27:36.960 thousand fifteen and in December, and Fishing Wild Services did 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:40.400 it completely different. Fishing Wild Service invited state agency people 1:27:40.720 --> 1:27:43.200 to the table in a series of workshops to develop 1:27:43.600 --> 1:27:46.320 um a recovery plan that they would they would then right. 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:49.040 And that was a whole different process because we had 1:27:49.080 --> 1:27:51.799 a neutral facilitator who was in charge of a population 1:27:51.920 --> 1:27:55.680 viability analysis instead of in past efforts, it's been some 1:27:56.280 --> 1:28:01.479 some academics that are very advocacy oriented, very protectionists oriented, 1:28:01.520 --> 1:28:03.240 and they were in charge of writing the recovery plan 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:07.160 which didn't work repeatedly. This The recovery team that I 1:28:07.280 --> 1:28:10.040 was on was the fourth recovery team to try to 1:28:10.120 --> 1:28:12.400 write a revision of the Mexic wolf recovery Plan. There 1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:14.680 was one written in eighty two. It wasn't adequate, it 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:16.920 didn't have recovery criteria, and everybody agreed it need to 1:28:16.920 --> 1:28:20.040 be rewritten. They kept failing because you can't get a 1:28:20.040 --> 1:28:23.680 handful of academics with a real protectionist kind of attitude 1:28:23.680 --> 1:28:26.559 together and have them right a Mexican wolf recovery plan. 1:28:26.720 --> 1:28:31.080 Explain to protectionist attitude, not ever wanting a wolf to 1:28:31.120 --> 1:28:33.920 die at the hands of man, no matter what I mean, 1:28:34.040 --> 1:28:38.000 Just like we want to craft some recovery criteria that 1:28:38.080 --> 1:28:40.360 will make it nearly impossible for them to ever be 1:28:40.479 --> 1:28:43.400 delisted and leave the protection of the federal government, which 1:28:43.439 --> 1:28:46.160 is not what the Endangered Species Act is. Danger Species 1:28:46.200 --> 1:28:48.640 Act is is that we're supposed to. It's like an 1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:52.479 emergency room. Someone just ready to are almost close to dying. 1:28:52.720 --> 1:28:54.559 You bring in an emergency room and you just get 1:28:54.640 --> 1:28:56.760 them well enough so that they're not going to die, 1:28:56.840 --> 1:28:59.120 and then you hand them over to um. You put 1:28:59.200 --> 1:29:00.439 them in a hospital bed, You put them in the 1:29:00.479 --> 1:29:02.639 hospital and then you monitor them and then you improve 1:29:02.720 --> 1:29:04.920 their health. Endangered Species Act is supposed to be like 1:29:05.040 --> 1:29:07.320 that with species, where we're just ready to lose them, 1:29:07.600 --> 1:29:09.320 we do everything we can to save them. We get 1:29:09.360 --> 1:29:11.519 them up to a certain level where we're comfortable that 1:29:11.560 --> 1:29:14.160 they're not no longer in danger of extinction, and then 1:29:14.240 --> 1:29:16.000 we pass them off to the state agencies and they 1:29:16.040 --> 1:29:18.240 manage them like all the other carnivores. They manage. Yeah. 1:29:18.240 --> 1:29:20.760 I've often joked in in some with some species. It's 1:29:20.800 --> 1:29:23.840 become the my favorite animal protection Act. It is, it 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:26.880 absolutely is, and that's does such a disservice to the 1:29:27.040 --> 1:29:29.519 two thousand other species that are listed on the Endangered 1:29:29.520 --> 1:29:31.920 Species Act. We've got species that legitimately are going to 1:29:31.960 --> 1:29:34.519 blink out and we're gonna lose. And we've got four 1:29:34.600 --> 1:29:38.320 thousand wolves in the in the western Great Lakes, and 1:29:38.439 --> 1:29:41.400 we've got people writing scientific papers and filing lawsuits saying 1:29:41.400 --> 1:29:44.000 they're still in danger of extinction. And we've got fifteen 1:29:44.040 --> 1:29:47.400 hundred in the Northern Rockies that are delisted, got sixty 1:29:47.479 --> 1:29:51.800 five thousand in Alaska and Canada, hundred ten thousand wolves worldwide, 1:29:52.560 --> 1:29:54.680 and and we can't delist the wolves in the four 1:29:54.720 --> 1:29:57.599 thousand wolves in the Great Lakes region when the recovery 1:29:57.600 --> 1:30:00.639 criteria was about fifteen hundred wolves, and we four thousand 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:04.960 and wolves and we've got four thousand, and people are 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:07.680 still suing saying they're still in danger of extinction and 1:30:08.120 --> 1:30:11.200 we can't do that. We need to we need to 1:30:11.200 --> 1:30:13.680 work together on the other two thousand species that need 1:30:13.760 --> 1:30:16.960 our help where they're legitimately going to disappear from the earth. Jim, 1:30:17.000 --> 1:30:19.760 what do you say to And I'm sure you've heard 1:30:19.840 --> 1:30:23.840 this argument, because I have many times as well. There's 1:30:23.840 --> 1:30:29.639 a value in having this animal on the endangered species 1:30:29.720 --> 1:30:34.320 list because it brings attention to the endangered species. I 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:37.519 tell you it's gonna bring that. Is that provision written 1:30:37.560 --> 1:30:41.320 into the Endangered Species Act? The last time says oh, 1:30:41.520 --> 1:30:45.639 and but you've heard of this. I'm not that familiar 1:30:45.640 --> 1:30:47.840 with this argument. But I mean, at some point, doesn't 1:30:47.840 --> 1:30:51.000 it kind of matter about the access Oh god, yeah, 1:30:51.200 --> 1:30:55.479 absolutely absolutely. But it's like, well, you know, nobody's gonna 1:30:55.600 --> 1:31:00.840 care about the whatever snail or butter or fly if 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:05.920 we don't have the grizzly bear. Yeah, it's gonna That 1:31:06.000 --> 1:31:08.240 doesn't even kind of surprise me. But I haven't heard 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:12.320 that this, if, if, this is the kind of thing 1:31:12.400 --> 1:31:15.160 that's gonna gonna ruin the Endangered Species Act is going 1:31:15.200 --> 1:31:17.639 to destroy the Endangered Species at some of these people 1:31:18.200 --> 1:31:20.880 pushing and pushing and pushing at these ridiculous notions that 1:31:21.200 --> 1:31:24.080 we need to still have federal protection on a species 1:31:24.120 --> 1:31:27.880 like wolf is just gonna fuel the fire and we'll 1:31:27.920 --> 1:31:31.759 have the Endangered Species Act completely renovated. Oh, it's already happening. 1:31:32.280 --> 1:31:36.760 People get like some state agencies get so frustrated and 1:31:37.200 --> 1:31:40.280 certain you know, live style groups whatever, get so frustrated 1:31:40.320 --> 1:31:43.040 with the conversations around grizzly bears and wolves that when 1:31:43.080 --> 1:31:45.160 they hear it's like what happened Like it's like kind 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:47.120 of like the level of damage that happened to the 1:31:47.600 --> 1:31:50.040 e s a around the spot at owl. It's like 1:31:50.160 --> 1:31:53.519 you turn these animals into something where the animal becomes 1:31:53.600 --> 1:31:57.920 symbolic of a kind of foot dragging, and then the 1:31:58.080 --> 1:32:01.000 Act becomes that it's just like a thing used to 1:32:02.120 --> 1:32:07.280 wield power about grizzly bear management, and people just get piste. Yep, 1:32:07.479 --> 1:32:09.800 that's not gonna end well, not gonna end well. We 1:32:09.880 --> 1:32:12.000 need to get these species up so they're no longer 1:32:12.040 --> 1:32:14.000 in danger of extinction, which is what the Act is, 1:32:14.400 --> 1:32:16.720 and then pass them off to the state agencies and 1:32:17.000 --> 1:32:19.719 and ed bangs lad the wolf recovery in the Northern Rockies, 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:23.160 he's fishing wallead service of quote unquote FED. He told 1:32:23.240 --> 1:32:25.880 everybody the entire time. He says, our goal is to 1:32:25.960 --> 1:32:28.840 get these up above the recovery criteria that everybody agreed 1:32:28.880 --> 1:32:30.600 on and pass it off to the states. They do 1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:33.519 a great job managing wildlife, and that's what my goal 1:32:33.880 --> 1:32:36.200 is to recover in the in the Rockies. That that's 1:32:36.240 --> 1:32:39.240 the thing too that happens that that is troublesome. Is 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:42.880 this this thing that it's the feeds. Listen, it's the FEDS. 1:32:43.800 --> 1:32:48.280 They keep proposing wolves get delisted in the Great Lakes. 1:32:48.400 --> 1:32:51.120 It's the FEDS that proposed the grizzly bears. But people 1:32:51.160 --> 1:32:53.040 were like, oh, the Feds. Yeah, the Feds are the 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:54.320 ones saying they want to deal it. They're the ones 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:55.920 that put them up for delisting, and they get sued 1:32:56.000 --> 1:32:57.920 and they're not allowed to because the lawsuits. Yeah, it's 1:32:57.920 --> 1:33:00.200 like a handful of like you know, it's anti money 1:33:00.200 --> 1:33:03.920 groups that kind of masquerade as environmental groups or that 1:33:04.120 --> 1:33:07.160 that do both, that serve both functions. What what is 1:33:07.320 --> 1:33:10.360 the most hurtful when you go to some of these 1:33:10.920 --> 1:33:13.639 UH fish and wildlife meetings and you have you see 1:33:13.680 --> 1:33:18.360 this argument being played out before you. Is is they're 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:21.680 trying to kill them all and state agencies will just 1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:23.360 kill them all and they'll be on the endangered species 1:33:23.720 --> 1:33:26.840 and and it's you know, they don't believe in like, well, listen, 1:33:26.920 --> 1:33:29.720 we have this mandate that says this is what we 1:33:29.840 --> 1:33:32.360 are supposed to do, and we just spend a shipload 1:33:32.400 --> 1:33:33.800 of money and get them off the list. And I 1:33:33.960 --> 1:33:37.000 just I want to say, how familiar are you with 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:39.800 how we got rid of wolves in the first place 1:33:39.960 --> 1:33:43.599 and that time frame. I'm like, if people were trying 1:33:43.640 --> 1:33:46.800 to kill wolves now, they would be gone. They would 1:33:46.840 --> 1:33:49.360 be gone gone because we did it very very well 1:33:49.840 --> 1:33:54.360 in a time without satellites, without GPS, without two way communication, 1:33:55.120 --> 1:33:57.799 Like we just use a little bit of poison. Yeah, 1:33:57.880 --> 1:34:00.680 And what what a lot of pro wolf groups and 1:34:00.880 --> 1:34:02.840 it sounds funny because I'm pro wolf too, but but 1:34:03.000 --> 1:34:06.160 a lot a lot of the protections groups won't acknowledge 1:34:06.320 --> 1:34:09.880 is that the contributions of sportsmen through the decades have 1:34:10.040 --> 1:34:13.760 brought back the prey base in in huge numbers that 1:34:13.880 --> 1:34:17.400 allows us to recover wolves, not just a better kind 1:34:17.439 --> 1:34:20.720 of conservation ethic that the population has, which is true, 1:34:21.360 --> 1:34:23.519 it's the prey base. We couldn't do it if if 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:26.560 we didn't have all of this prey Jim talked a 1:34:26.560 --> 1:34:30.680 little bit about your article were you the article you 1:34:30.720 --> 1:34:33.600 wrote where you talk about the public's enthusiasm for like 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:39.360 trophic cascades, that trophic cascades also becomes like everybody's favorite word. Yeah, 1:34:39.560 --> 1:34:42.360 favorite phrase. That's that's another thing like trophy hunting, that 1:34:42.800 --> 1:34:46.960 that far outpaced the science behind it. So you're always 1:34:47.000 --> 1:34:49.760 playing trophic cascades. We need to do that and then 1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:52.599 talk about the you know whatever. He's like all hopped 1:34:52.640 --> 1:34:54.200 up on the idea that all it takes is a 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:57.639 couple of wolves and their their rivers run clear again. 1:34:57.760 --> 1:35:01.400 And yeah, so tropic cascades just basically a trophic level 1:35:01.439 --> 1:35:04.439 in in ecology is like the vegetations one trophic level, 1:35:04.640 --> 1:35:07.320 and then you may have elk representing the second trophic 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:10.160 level above that helk eating the vegetation, and then you 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:12.920 have a third trophic level, which might be wolves which 1:35:13.240 --> 1:35:16.120 eat the elk, and so you have these three trophic levels, 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.519 and the idea of trophic cascades is that if you've 1:35:18.520 --> 1:35:22.680 got a situation where you've got elk really impacting, overpopulated 1:35:22.720 --> 1:35:25.320 elk impacting the vegetation, and you've got too many elk, 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:28.879 you bring in wolves on that third trophic level. Wolves 1:35:28.960 --> 1:35:31.799 impact the elk in such a way that that it relaxed, 1:35:31.880 --> 1:35:34.640 It relaxes the grazing pressure on the vegetation, and you 1:35:34.720 --> 1:35:37.799 have more vegetation and you have this recovery of vegetation. 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:41.240 So the idea is adding wolves to that system cascades 1:35:41.600 --> 1:35:44.360 this effect through the trophic levels and where you have 1:35:44.479 --> 1:35:47.240 actually the addition of wolves affecting how much vegetation there is. 1:35:47.320 --> 1:35:51.280 So that's basically trophic cascades. So in Yellowstone they put 1:35:51.360 --> 1:35:53.600 wolves in a ninety five. They put fourteen wolves one 1:35:53.680 --> 1:35:56.439 year and seventeen the next, and that wolf population grew. 1:35:56.520 --> 1:35:59.000 But that was Can I interrupt you to use a 1:35:59.080 --> 1:36:02.639 quote from that era? Yeah? Um, it was in your article. 1:36:03.240 --> 1:36:10.400 Where's that quote around? Someone described Yellowstone as three thousand, 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:14.800 four hundred square miles of paradise surrounded by reality. That 1:36:14.920 --> 1:36:20.679 was that was that he's the leader of the wolf recovery. 1:36:20.680 --> 1:36:24.720 In the Rocky Mountain. Very pragmatic. Um, awesome guy. And 1:36:25.080 --> 1:36:27.920 and so everybody's talking about what's happening in Yellowstone and 1:36:27.960 --> 1:36:31.000 getting all excited about whatever's happening Yellowstone. That's what's gonna 1:36:31.000 --> 1:36:34.160 happen everywhere when we put wolves everywhere. But Yellowstone is 1:36:34.240 --> 1:36:36.760 a whole different deal. And and so that's where he said, 1:36:36.800 --> 1:36:41.120 that's paradise pause surrounded by reality. And that's so true 1:36:41.160 --> 1:36:44.040 because what happened in Yellowstone, no matter what happened to Yellowstone, 1:36:44.360 --> 1:36:46.880 it can't be replicated on on a working landscape with 1:36:47.000 --> 1:36:49.000 people trying to make a living and working on that 1:36:49.160 --> 1:36:53.519 landscape that's not Yellowstone everywhere. So so the trophic cascades 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.760 and in Yellowstone released the World of nine already five 1:36:56.840 --> 1:36:59.200 years later, some scientists went in there and they measured 1:36:59.280 --> 1:37:02.680 aspen growth in the northern range, and they concluded that 1:37:02.880 --> 1:37:07.400 aspen growth was responding. And since the wolves really had 1:37:07.400 --> 1:37:10.479 an impact of the number of elk yet that they 1:37:10.960 --> 1:37:14.559 surmised or they theorized that wolves were just chasing elk 1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:18.120 out of areas where wolf were wolves were chasing elk 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:20.879 where the elk would camp out and feed in riparian 1:37:20.960 --> 1:37:24.519 areas in places. So this scaring elk around by the 1:37:24.600 --> 1:37:28.760 wolves was distributing the grazing pressure and causing uh A 1:37:29.160 --> 1:37:32.960 response in the aspen. And that that just kind of 1:37:33.080 --> 1:37:36.920 speculative paper um was just like the trophy hunting thing. 1:37:36.960 --> 1:37:40.599 It lit a fuse on on the um popular media 1:37:40.760 --> 1:37:43.840 and everybody started talking about how the wolf was the 1:37:43.920 --> 1:37:46.519 savior of the environment. All we did was add wolves. 1:37:46.800 --> 1:37:50.080 And now we have vegetation responding. We have butterflies coming back, 1:37:50.200 --> 1:37:52.720 we have bees coming back, we have songbirds, we have 1:37:52.800 --> 1:37:56.560 beavers coming back to Yellowstone, we have vegetation responding. And 1:37:56.760 --> 1:38:00.080 and created this narrative based on just a little it 1:38:00.280 --> 1:38:03.880 of measurement of of aspen in some riperion areas, and 1:38:03.960 --> 1:38:07.200 the popular media went crazy. They captured the imagination. They 1:38:07.360 --> 1:38:10.519 love that story. Can you imagine now not only do 1:38:10.640 --> 1:38:13.000 we do we just want to put wolves back on 1:38:13.040 --> 1:38:15.439 the landscape, but now we have to put wolves on 1:38:15.479 --> 1:38:19.080 the landscape to renovate all of this degraded ecosystems. And 1:38:19.120 --> 1:38:20.840 it's all we need is to add wolves. So can 1:38:20.840 --> 1:38:24.640 you imagine if they had opened up UM hunting and 1:38:24.760 --> 1:38:29.160 Yellowstone would have done and they saw corresponding growth and 1:38:29.240 --> 1:38:31.880 aspens in the news cycle of do you think the 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:38.479 news would be champion of cascade? Right, anything can can 1:38:39.160 --> 1:38:42.840 can precipitate a trophic cascade like that, and so so 1:38:43.040 --> 1:38:46.160 this firestorm of popular media and then a YouTube video 1:38:46.760 --> 1:38:50.040 just about everybody has seen. It's got forty million views. 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:53.720 That's some British producer um with kind of a David 1:38:53.760 --> 1:38:56.120 Attenborough kind of that's all it takes, man, You put it, 1:38:56.200 --> 1:38:58.720 you put it, You put an old brit like, you know, 1:38:59.560 --> 1:39:01.400 because where they kind of like guy rid of nature 1:39:01.720 --> 1:39:03.040 to one of those guys at the helm of a 1:39:03.120 --> 1:39:06.759 nature video and people are like, and that's what happened. 1:39:06.840 --> 1:39:08.640 He starts out the video saying in the deer and 1:39:08.680 --> 1:39:10.479 they show these elk running, he says, and the deer 1:39:10.760 --> 1:39:12.920 gets scared out of And so it's full of errors. 1:39:13.240 --> 1:39:15.280 But it's got forty million views. And you talk to 1:39:15.320 --> 1:39:17.400 anyone on the street. Thousand people sent me that video. 1:39:17.560 --> 1:39:20.160 Oh I bet, I bet, and anybody on the street 1:39:20.200 --> 1:39:22.320 will when you ask him about Yellowstone and wolves say 1:39:22.400 --> 1:39:25.600 oh that In the title of the the video was 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:28.639 when wolves changed rivers, and it was about them having 1:39:28.800 --> 1:39:31.960 such a strong ecological effect in the Yellowstone ecosystem that 1:39:32.360 --> 1:39:35.120 river courses were changing and vegetation was coming back. The 1:39:35.280 --> 1:39:39.880 problem with that whole story is that it's not just wolves. 1:39:40.120 --> 1:39:44.320 They released the wolves in shortly after that, they had 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:46.920 a hundred year drought, the worst drought in a hundred years. 1:39:47.200 --> 1:39:49.080 They had a couple of years in that next decade 1:39:49.160 --> 1:39:52.599 with with heavy snows at that time that that knocked 1:39:52.880 --> 1:39:56.560 elk recruitment back. Grizzly bear populations increased so much that 1:39:56.680 --> 1:40:00.479 they documented three times the elk the calf elk predation 1:40:00.520 --> 1:40:03.680 by grizzly bears than than before we had wolves. There 1:40:03.720 --> 1:40:07.040 was hydrological changes in Yellowstone. We had the fires in 1:40:08.080 --> 1:40:11.519 huge changes. Their moose populations were dropping, Cougar population for 1:40:11.600 --> 1:40:15.679 coming up all the beaver reintroductions right see you here 1:40:15.960 --> 1:40:19.320 very nearby, Yes, in the Galton. Yeah, so you hear that. 1:40:19.520 --> 1:40:23.479 The bee they made that whole upper Madison and Gallant 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.960 and beaver recovery areas. So the wolves didn't bring the 1:40:27.000 --> 1:40:30.200 beavers back biologistic and crates um and released them and 1:40:30.320 --> 1:40:33.760 the beaver's coming coming upstream and damning is part of 1:40:33.840 --> 1:40:37.439 the hydrological changes um in that in that ecosystem, that 1:40:37.560 --> 1:40:39.280 that was really caused by the beavers. But the beavers 1:40:39.320 --> 1:40:42.280 don't have a paparazzi following them and and champion everything 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:43.880 that they do, and so the beavers didn't get any 1:40:43.880 --> 1:40:51.240 credit for that's right. That's so funny though, because you're like, well, yeah, 1:40:51.479 --> 1:40:53.639 just add wolves, just add wolves and read what we're 1:40:53.640 --> 1:40:55.720 talking about, whether it's a beaver or a wolf, is 1:40:56.320 --> 1:41:01.720 heavy heavy handed management. And also we were killing cow 1:41:01.800 --> 1:41:04.679 elk off of the park in the wintertime and hunts 1:41:04.720 --> 1:41:06.280 as a way to try to trim the herds. That's 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:09.000 what we do. We killed females and those uh cow 1:41:09.120 --> 1:41:11.240 tags were probably held a little longer than we thought 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:13.800 as the elk population was going down. So there's a 1:41:13.920 --> 1:41:16.920 storm of things that caused the elk population to go 1:41:17.000 --> 1:41:20.320 from nineteen thousand down to less than four thousand, and 1:41:20.479 --> 1:41:22.599 some people wanted to pin all that on the wolf, 1:41:22.680 --> 1:41:24.720 and the wolf did all that, and it's just such 1:41:24.760 --> 1:41:28.360 a simplistic thing that happened. But but a lot of 1:41:28.439 --> 1:41:30.479 research has come on now. Matt Kaufman, who you had 1:41:30.520 --> 1:41:33.320 on the show, published a paper in two where he 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:37.920 did a more robust, more widespread, more scientific analysis of 1:41:38.240 --> 1:41:40.880 of aspen in that same area in the Northern Range 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:45.200 and and showed that Aspen wasn't recovering actually even despite 1:41:45.280 --> 1:41:48.040 a sixty in decline in the elk population, So at 1:41:48.080 --> 1:41:50.599 that point it wasn't just a behavioral thing. We've got 1:41:50.680 --> 1:41:53.839 six decline in the elk and it's still can't document 1:41:54.160 --> 1:41:57.479 an aspen recovery. And so it's a really complicated thing 1:41:57.600 --> 1:42:01.120 with a whole bunch of factors feeding into it. And 1:42:01.240 --> 1:42:05.000 to sit back and say wolves changed Yellowstone and renovated 1:42:05.000 --> 1:42:08.120 the whole ecosystem is is a fallacy. But but what 1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:10.679 do you want? What everybody knows. But when someone wants 1:42:10.720 --> 1:42:12.400 to come in, and they want to come in and 1:42:12.520 --> 1:42:16.080 be like, let's have a normal, reasonable conversation about this, 1:42:16.960 --> 1:42:20.479 you get accused of being like anti wolf. You have 1:42:20.560 --> 1:42:22.240 a quote one of your things, you wrote, I came here. 1:42:22.320 --> 1:42:24.200 It was you were someone else who said, we don't 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:26.320 have to make the wolf out to be a hero 1:42:26.760 --> 1:42:30.360 to justify recovery. That why can't we just talk about 1:42:30.439 --> 1:42:35.639 it in a way that's I'm asking you, Why can't 1:42:35.640 --> 1:42:38.240 it just be talked about in a matter of fact way, 1:42:38.479 --> 1:42:40.360 like is this the right thing to do? How do 1:42:40.439 --> 1:42:42.160 we do it correctly? But not have it be that 1:42:42.280 --> 1:42:46.000 we need to like spend these wild yachts. It's too polarized. 1:42:46.000 --> 1:42:47.760 We've got everybody at the poles and nobody in the 1:42:47.800 --> 1:42:49.840 middle when it comes to wolves, and and I think 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:52.840 that evolved because of of wolf recovery in the Northern 1:42:52.920 --> 1:42:55.960 Rockies and wolves are getting and they crossed two thousand two. 1:42:56.080 --> 1:42:59.880 I think they they exceeded recovery criteria and weren't the 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:03.880 listed by Congress unfortunately until they were five times the 1:43:03.960 --> 1:43:07.360 original recovery criteria. And do you have these these these 1:43:07.439 --> 1:43:10.759 groups suing to keep wolves protected on an Endangered Species 1:43:10.800 --> 1:43:13.439 Act even as that population grows and grows and grows. 1:43:13.720 --> 1:43:17.160 I think that creates so much pull to one pole 1:43:17.640 --> 1:43:21.160 that you had an equal and opposite reaction the opposite way, 1:43:21.520 --> 1:43:25.680 with people pulling equally hard and equally unrealistic things that 1:43:25.760 --> 1:43:28.080 they were saying on the other side. And and it 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:31.439 just got so violent. Everybody is still in their corners 1:43:31.760 --> 1:43:34.639 instead of meeting in the middle and just talking NEUTRALI 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:38.720 about it. The opposite of your trophic cascade person, the 1:43:39.360 --> 1:43:43.720 equally ridiculous opposite, is your person who is just in 1:43:44.000 --> 1:43:49.360 love with the idea of surplus killing. Yeah, they love it, 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:53.240 they love it, right, it's like the other extreme extreme. 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:58.720 It's the it's the MSNBC, Fox News split is trophic, cascade, 1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:04.479 surplus killing. What is the middle like? If you, I 1:44:04.560 --> 1:44:06.200 know it's not your business, but what is the middle 1:44:06.240 --> 1:44:08.479 ground like layout for me? Like not only it has 1:44:08.520 --> 1:44:12.400 it doesn't need to be your opinion, articulate an opinion 1:44:12.720 --> 1:44:15.439 that based on all of your exposure to people a 1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:19.519 different opinions about wolves. Imagine if you will, the most 1:44:19.920 --> 1:44:25.719 sort of like moderate, kind of level headed, consensus minded 1:44:26.439 --> 1:44:31.240 sentence about collection of sentences about wolves. There's there's not 1:44:31.320 --> 1:44:33.720 many people there, but I feel like I'm close and 1:44:33.760 --> 1:44:35.880 I feel like I'm close to that because the wolves 1:44:35.920 --> 1:44:38.040 to me are not on a pedestal as some religious 1:44:38.080 --> 1:44:41.160 deity that's going to save the world. And I certainly 1:44:41.200 --> 1:44:43.760 don't hate wolves. Wolves are just the largest member of 1:44:43.760 --> 1:44:47.679 the carnivore family, and and agencies manage foxes, we manage coyotes. 1:44:47.760 --> 1:44:50.759 We couldn't manage wolves the same way. They're just another 1:44:50.920 --> 1:44:53.519 native um species. And if we just look at them 1:44:53.600 --> 1:44:56.120 that way and say, let's bring it back onto the landscape, 1:44:56.400 --> 1:44:59.519 and when they're causing some unacceptable losses to livestock or 1:44:59.520 --> 1:45:02.400 an accept the losses to native other native species like 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:04.439 el ker deer, then were going to manage them. We 1:45:04.720 --> 1:45:07.880 bring that population down in that focal area, solve that problem, 1:45:08.320 --> 1:45:11.120 and in other areas where they're not causing any problems 1:45:11.160 --> 1:45:14.439 and they're just restored to the landscape for good. Um. 1:45:14.600 --> 1:45:17.240 I don't know why more people can't look at it 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:19.680 that way, but but they don't. It's very appealing and 1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:23.679 I know, I mean, they're just they're just big dogs. 1:45:23.800 --> 1:45:25.880 They're just another canaid out there. I don't know why 1:45:25.960 --> 1:45:28.559 they have to be so special. If you imagine looking 1:45:28.600 --> 1:45:34.360 into a crystal ball, UM, take the Northern Great Lakes. 1:45:35.280 --> 1:45:39.720 Will we get um? Will they be delisted to stay? Eventually? Yes? 1:45:39.960 --> 1:45:42.080 I think pretty soon. I mean I don't I don't 1:45:42.080 --> 1:45:43.800 know how you can justify leaving him on the list. 1:45:43.880 --> 1:45:47.760 I do think maybe this year they'll be delisted. Does it? 1:45:47.920 --> 1:45:50.360 Does it? Um? I know you don't do politics, but 1:45:50.400 --> 1:45:52.800 I don't know. If you need to answer this, you 1:45:52.840 --> 1:45:58.920 probably can't answer this. Does will that happen independent whatever 1:45:59.000 --> 1:46:02.599 happens with the next administration, Like does that have its 1:46:02.640 --> 1:46:04.640 own life course? Or does there need to be some 1:46:04.760 --> 1:46:08.519 like very top down pressure on that There isn't a 1:46:08.600 --> 1:46:12.040 lot of top down um pressure because I think there's 1:46:12.040 --> 1:46:16.040 safeguards against you know, like directives like that. There's there's 1:46:16.080 --> 1:46:18.800 influence there. There's no way you can take politics out 1:46:18.800 --> 1:46:21.680 of endangered species management, and certainly not wolf management. So 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:27.360 there's always gonna be some political pressures and political um considerations. 1:46:27.439 --> 1:46:29.560 That's just part of wildlife management. It's not it's not 1:46:29.720 --> 1:46:32.719 pure science, for sure. It's it's an application of science 1:46:32.800 --> 1:46:37.160 and social science to manage wildlife. So I think in 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:40.040 the future they'll be delisted. They certainly will be what 1:46:40.320 --> 1:46:42.320 what we can't do, And I've heard people say this 1:46:42.479 --> 1:46:44.720 is okay. I agree with delisting the Northern Rockies. I 1:46:44.760 --> 1:46:47.920 agree with the listing the Great Lakes, but we we 1:46:48.200 --> 1:46:50.800 need wolves in more places, and so we need to 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:53.639 keep them listed in all of the other places until 1:46:53.680 --> 1:46:56.760 they recovered. That's not what the s A does. If 1:46:56.840 --> 1:46:59.519 they're not in danger of extinction anymore in too big 1:46:59.600 --> 1:47:02.439 popular nations, then we don't. We don't just move those 1:47:02.479 --> 1:47:05.560 polygons around the country until we get wolves everywhere we 1:47:05.680 --> 1:47:07.879 want wolves. Yeah, I know, I a little bit disagree 1:47:07.920 --> 1:47:11.799 with you because those ideas weren't around at the time 1:47:12.120 --> 1:47:16.800 they were delisted. But it makes it um It makes 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:20.560 it better and easier to work being there. If you 1:47:20.600 --> 1:47:22.600 look at grizzly bears, it makes sense to me that 1:47:22.720 --> 1:47:28.000 we would just we would gradually, as it's acceptable, d 1:47:28.240 --> 1:47:33.800 list some some idea of population groups rather than saying that, 1:47:34.920 --> 1:47:37.599 you know, rather than like undoing the whole protection across 1:47:37.640 --> 1:47:39.880 the entirety of the lower forty eight, we would be like, Okay, 1:47:39.960 --> 1:47:42.240 this region is cool. That region is cool, but that 1:47:42.360 --> 1:47:44.760 region is cool. That region is not cool. What you're 1:47:44.760 --> 1:47:47.479 talking about is those are subpopulations that were all part 1:47:47.560 --> 1:47:50.880 of the recovery, and so one subpopulation is doing really good, 1:47:51.200 --> 1:47:53.479 then definitely we want to take that one off off 1:47:53.560 --> 1:47:55.600 the table. We want to delist that, and we do 1:47:55.720 --> 1:47:58.519 want to keep those other ones because they're right from 1:47:58.560 --> 1:48:02.320 the start part of the whole recovery plant. Whereas in 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:06.200 in gray Wolves, the whole recovery plan was three populations 1:48:06.200 --> 1:48:07.680 of a hundred, and then it was increased of three 1:48:07.720 --> 1:48:10.720 populations of a hundred fifty in the northern Great Lakes 1:48:10.760 --> 1:48:13.479 area there and and we reached that and exceeded that 1:48:13.560 --> 1:48:16.479 by five times, and then the western Great Lakes it 1:48:16.680 --> 1:48:20.599 was um like four hundred. In Minnesota where they're just threatened. 1:48:20.720 --> 1:48:23.840 And then it was a hundred more in Wisconsin and 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:26.920 the up and they exceeded that a long time ago. 1:48:27.000 --> 1:48:32.639 And so those are too independent recovery processes and they've 1:48:32.680 --> 1:48:36.280 both been satisfied. There was a grizzly bear example. That 1:48:36.560 --> 1:48:40.759 one that they're delisting is just part of the overall 1:48:40.840 --> 1:48:45.280 recovery plan. Um, I'm gonna do another crystal ball one 1:48:45.360 --> 1:48:49.800 for you. What let's say pick a comfortable number twenty years, 1:48:49.840 --> 1:48:55.360 twenty five years. What are some states that um might 1:48:55.520 --> 1:48:58.760 have population of wolves that don't. Now if you just 1:48:58.880 --> 1:49:03.519 kind of look at the trick question, no, no, the 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:07.479 biological aspects and the political aspects. If you'd asked this 1:49:07.600 --> 1:49:10.040 question twenty years ago, there's been some real surprises. Yeah, 1:49:10.400 --> 1:49:12.640 right right. Some of the Washington you'd have been like 1:49:12.880 --> 1:49:17.960 California people like bullshit, right, But here we are so um, 1:49:19.320 --> 1:49:23.439 you know, is Nebraska right, Like, is Nebraska gonna be 1:49:23.520 --> 1:49:26.920 like wow? Who the thought? Now Nebraska has a wolf pack? 1:49:27.640 --> 1:49:29.639 And you'd have to say Utah in Colorado because we've 1:49:29.640 --> 1:49:32.120 got wolves going into those naturally going into those areas 1:49:32.439 --> 1:49:34.759 as it is, and I think and Mexican wolf recovery 1:49:35.520 --> 1:49:38.320 we've since two thousand nine, the Mexican wolf population has 1:49:38.360 --> 1:49:41.240 been increased in average at twelve percent per year, so 1:49:41.400 --> 1:49:43.880 that the mixing wolf population is going up and up 1:49:44.000 --> 1:49:48.280 and increasing towards a recovery goal. And yet I still 1:49:48.320 --> 1:49:51.919 get emails that say the Mexican wolf is spiraling towards extinction. 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:54.240 Press the click the button here to donate to help 1:49:54.320 --> 1:49:57.680 us save the wolves against the evil state and federal agencies. 1:49:58.040 --> 1:50:01.000 And I think maybe they have my ground pinned sideways 1:50:01.040 --> 1:50:04.840 in their office or something and they think it's going wrong. 1:50:04.880 --> 1:50:06.840 I think they hung it up wrong because the graph 1:50:06.960 --> 1:50:09.320 is going up and up. So I I do feel 1:50:09.360 --> 1:50:11.360 that Mexican wolves are gonna be I don't know when 1:50:11.439 --> 1:50:14.240 recovery will happen, because we're still in the early stages recovery, 1:50:14.320 --> 1:50:16.640 but that situation is gonna look a lot better. We're 1:50:16.680 --> 1:50:19.240 gonna have more wolves in in Mexico, and we've got 1:50:19.320 --> 1:50:21.840 two recovery areas in the US and Mexico because it 1:50:21.840 --> 1:50:25.519 has been a true binational um process. And then we're 1:50:25.520 --> 1:50:27.400 gonna have some of the rocky mountain states really gonna 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:30.640 expand into those rocky mountain states. And and really I 1:50:30.760 --> 1:50:34.320 think a lot of this angst and polarity is going 1:50:34.400 --> 1:50:38.800 to relax once people have wolves around and realize they're 1:50:38.840 --> 1:50:41.240 not that bad and if we have management ability to 1:50:41.360 --> 1:50:43.640 take care of problems where they where they happen. I 1:50:43.720 --> 1:50:46.120 think in cases where wolves have been here a while, 1:50:46.520 --> 1:50:49.840 like for example, Alaska and Canada, they're not that big 1:50:49.880 --> 1:50:51.360 a deal because they've had them for a while, and 1:50:51.439 --> 1:50:54.800 I think all this stuff will will settle down twenty 1:50:54.920 --> 1:50:57.439 years or so. That's a really funny thing about friends 1:50:57.479 --> 1:51:00.479 of mine that just really don't like wolves. I got 1:51:00.760 --> 1:51:04.479 friends as hate wolves and um because what they what 1:51:04.640 --> 1:51:07.080 they what their belief of what they'll do to the 1:51:07.160 --> 1:51:09.680 game populations. But the Sun's bitches all want to hunt 1:51:09.680 --> 1:51:12.519 in Alaska, right, I'm like, yeah, you would like it. 1:51:13.280 --> 1:51:16.400 Another thing I mentioned David Meach. David Meach has been 1:51:16.439 --> 1:51:19.960 working on wolves for sixty years, which sounds those are, 1:51:20.080 --> 1:51:22.680 but he has. He's been working Elsmere Island every year 1:51:23.000 --> 1:51:26.759 on Archtally Worlds for sixty years, and and he he's 1:51:26.880 --> 1:51:28.840 very pragmatic about wolves. You would think some of the 1:51:28.960 --> 1:51:33.000 devoted your entire their entire life to wolves and wolf biology, 1:51:33.360 --> 1:51:36.400 but he's very pragmatic. He's the one that says um. 1:51:36.680 --> 1:51:39.920 Wolves are neither st nor sinners, except by those who 1:51:40.040 --> 1:51:42.639 try to make themselves so they're not. They're just they're 1:51:42.680 --> 1:51:47.759 just um canaans there. And the public perception I find 1:51:47.960 --> 1:51:51.240 is so skewed as to what a healthy population is. 1:51:51.840 --> 1:51:57.560 And people like to have this very unrealistic idea of 1:51:58.920 --> 1:52:03.240 how animals spread out on a landscape. So if there's 1:52:03.280 --> 1:52:06.880 a healthy population, it means I see them where I go. 1:52:07.600 --> 1:52:10.000 And like, we're looking at this big picture of Hell's 1:52:10.040 --> 1:52:13.360 Canyon that is chock full elk, but there's no elk 1:52:13.439 --> 1:52:16.280 in the picture, and people are like, something is wrong. 1:52:17.520 --> 1:52:20.240 And I've been at these public meetings. I had so 1:52:20.520 --> 1:52:25.160 many really cool wolf encounters in the UH Catcham area 1:52:25.320 --> 1:52:29.080 Catching Ranger District, and UH go to public meetings and 1:52:29.200 --> 1:52:32.200 it's like doom and gloom and the wolf population is 1:52:32.240 --> 1:52:35.040 going down and the hunters are killing them all and 1:52:35.160 --> 1:52:39.559 the damn Cattle Owners Association is killing them all. Shut up, 1:52:40.640 --> 1:52:43.880 And it's because people aren't seeing wolves when they're I mean, 1:52:44.000 --> 1:52:46.400 some of these people were obviously not walking on trails, 1:52:46.439 --> 1:52:49.720 but they said they were right. Um, but they're not 1:52:49.760 --> 1:52:51.280 seeing them when they're walking their dogs, and they're not 1:52:51.320 --> 1:52:53.160 seeing when they're driving their cars and he's seeing long 1:52:53.240 --> 1:53:00.240 tail weasels. Either, that's not that's not charismatic enough, Paul Jazz, 1:53:00.320 --> 1:53:02.280 I think they're very charismatic. I was with a lot 1:53:02.360 --> 1:53:05.800 of non game biologists last night, and uh, they're big 1:53:05.880 --> 1:53:10.080 fans of the weasel family. Are we gonna be arguing 1:53:10.080 --> 1:53:12.800 about jaguars and ten years No, I don't think so 1:53:14.479 --> 1:53:18.240 argue about jaguars. Do you want to restore jaguars? I 1:53:18.600 --> 1:53:22.759 was involved in one workshop recently um talking about jaguars 1:53:22.800 --> 1:53:24.479 and jaguars don't want to restore them. I just want 1:53:24.560 --> 1:53:27.120 them to wander back in and be cool. Well I do, 1:53:27.280 --> 1:53:29.760 I think everybody. Most everybody does. They don't know that 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:31.720 I'm arguing yet that we put them in crates and 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:34.479 turn them out. But the one workshop I was at 1:53:34.520 --> 1:53:38.880 where there's uh three advocacy groups that got together and 1:53:38.960 --> 1:53:42.720 wrote a big manuscript advocating translocating from Mexico into the 1:53:42.800 --> 1:53:46.920 muggy on Rim and the Healing Esgtional. This is pondrosa 1:53:46.960 --> 1:53:51.439 pine um forest and was never um, never habitat where 1:53:51.439 --> 1:53:54.360 they stayed. The southwest Arizona, New Mexico has always been 1:53:54.680 --> 1:53:57.720 places where transient animals came up. We haven't documented a 1:53:58.560 --> 1:54:02.960 female with young jaguar in the US in Arizona and 1:54:03.000 --> 1:54:06.080 New Mexico anyway for a hundred and twenty years. There 1:54:06.120 --> 1:54:09.080 hasn't been a female since since nineteen sixty three, and 1:54:09.160 --> 1:54:10.639 then a bunch of been a bunch of been killed 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.479 in photographs since then. No females. Yeah, well, what about 1:54:13.520 --> 1:54:17.519 if you went back into you know, like man right, Yeah, 1:54:17.560 --> 1:54:20.000 we don't know that. And and there were there were jaguars, 1:54:20.040 --> 1:54:22.600 and there were some females in some reproduction. But but 1:54:22.720 --> 1:54:24.280 this was a marginary. If you look at the Native 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:28.360 American tribes, they have like no jaguar motif, not part 1:54:28.400 --> 1:54:30.559 of any of their stories. That tells you. That tells 1:54:30.600 --> 1:54:34.040 you something about how common it was in the Southwest 1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:37.760 and interesting and so we we definitely want to um 1:54:38.320 --> 1:54:40.880 make sure they can come back up and go back 1:54:40.960 --> 1:54:43.840 to Mexico they want. There was. Alan Rabinowitz is probably 1:54:43.880 --> 1:54:47.000 the most famous jaguar person. He started Panthera, which is 1:54:47.000 --> 1:54:52.320 a wild cat group worldwide. He's established jaguar conservation areas 1:54:52.360 --> 1:54:55.280 and refuges in South American Central America. Devoted his whole 1:54:55.320 --> 1:54:59.320 life to jaguars and and when he talked about well 1:54:59.320 --> 1:55:02.520 the fish Wallet's Ofervice was being pressured by some environmental 1:55:02.560 --> 1:55:06.320 groups to designate critical habitat in Arizona, New Mexico. And 1:55:06.400 --> 1:55:08.320 when he heard that, he wrote not fed in in 1:55:08.520 --> 1:55:11.280 New York Times and said, this is ridiculous, is a 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:14.520 ridiculous waste of money. That we've got a hundred seventy 1:55:14.640 --> 1:55:19.000 hundred seventy three thousand jaguars estimated from Sonora down to 1:55:19.280 --> 1:55:23.400 southern South America, and and some groups are saying this 1:55:23.560 --> 1:55:26.360 little dry arid land on the northern end of their 1:55:26.400 --> 1:55:28.920 distribution where they really just kind of moved in and 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:33.440 moved out. Historically that is should be designated critical habitat 1:55:33.480 --> 1:55:36.280 and critical habitat as part of the ESA Endangered Species Act, 1:55:36.760 --> 1:55:39.560 and and habits had to be designated as critical habitat 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:42.440 has to be critical to the conservation of the species. 1:55:43.000 --> 1:55:46.080 And the Fishing Wildad Service did population viability analyses where 1:55:46.120 --> 1:55:48.760 they included Arizona, New Mexico, and then they excluded them. 1:55:49.120 --> 1:55:51.160 And and as you would expect with a hundred and 1:55:51.160 --> 1:55:54.760 seventy three thousand jaguars elsewhere, that didn't change the probability 1:55:54.800 --> 1:55:57.800 of extinction um at all. And in Mexico itself has 1:55:58.000 --> 1:56:01.280 four thousand, eight hundred jaguars estimate, didn't that increased in 1:56:01.360 --> 1:56:05.960 the last decade. And so there's Arizona patriot man, I 1:56:06.040 --> 1:56:10.400 want American jaguars. Well, the groups that are asking for 1:56:10.520 --> 1:56:14.640 translocation up into Ariza into Central Arizona, New Mexico. At 1:56:14.680 --> 1:56:16.840 that meeting were some people that were involved in the 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:20.160 conservation of jaguars in central Mexico where they are, and 1:56:20.280 --> 1:56:23.560 those people said, you're at you want to transplicate how 1:56:23.640 --> 1:56:27.080 many that's more than we estimate are in this northernmost 1:56:27.120 --> 1:56:30.080 population of jaguars. You can't you can't be taking our jaguars. 1:56:30.120 --> 1:56:33.040 I mean, we're trying to conserve that there so so, 1:56:33.800 --> 1:56:35.920 and then that got a lot of people looking at 1:56:35.960 --> 1:56:38.160 the carpet and scratching their heads like, oh, we didn't 1:56:38.160 --> 1:56:39.879 think of that. We're just gonna go get some jaguars 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:41.800 and bring them up here. I didn't, you know, I 1:56:41.920 --> 1:56:45.640 never knew It's something I should research more or read 1:56:45.720 --> 1:56:51.720 up on. Mores like how oft and how many? Right? 1:56:52.440 --> 1:56:54.240 Like how many were? Really? I'd like to know. I'll 1:56:54.280 --> 1:56:55.800 send you a book, like what is the sort of 1:56:55.960 --> 1:56:57.840 you know I've seen it? I read a book um 1:56:58.600 --> 1:57:00.960 not too long ago, and it was it was just 1:57:01.160 --> 1:57:06.000 an exhaustive catalog of everything that could have possibly have 1:57:06.160 --> 1:57:09.560 been a reference of grizzly bears in the Southwest. So 1:57:09.720 --> 1:57:13.839 it's Mexico. It got up into Collar, yet it covered 1:57:13.960 --> 1:57:16.480 basically Colorado South. It was sort of like it was 1:57:16.520 --> 1:57:20.080 just a thing efter thing like from back the Spanish 1:57:20.960 --> 1:57:26.480 you know, early you know, Frontier day ranchers archaeological record, 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:30.240 like everything that pointed to where were they? What was 1:57:30.280 --> 1:57:33.360 it like? I'd like to see that on jaguars if 1:57:33.400 --> 1:57:35.920 it was if it was in fact that this is 1:57:36.040 --> 1:57:39.520 always fringe and theyate straight up and this is just 1:57:39.640 --> 1:57:42.160 like the natural edge of their habitat, and just like 1:57:42.800 --> 1:57:45.680 you might you know, you know, Mountain Lion might kind 1:57:45.680 --> 1:57:47.480 of like flirt with the Alaska border now and then, 1:57:47.520 --> 1:57:50.680 but you'd hardly call Alaska like Mountain Lion country. But 1:57:50.880 --> 1:57:52.960 now and then one might turn up and they do. 1:57:53.640 --> 1:57:55.960 If that was the case, then I guess my ask 1:57:56.080 --> 1:57:59.520 would be that we take the necessary steps to let 1:57:59.600 --> 1:58:03.040 that contin new happening. Definitely, Yeah, I agree with just 1:58:03.200 --> 1:58:05.520 not jaguars and crates up into the Ponderous Pine. That 1:58:05.720 --> 1:58:08.400 seems really weird that that, but from from a from 1:58:08.440 --> 1:58:12.800 a like from a armchair expert, not not even that 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:16.040 an armchair curious person. That strikes me as being a 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:18.480 little bit much. That Ellen Robin wits I mentioned when 1:58:18.600 --> 1:58:20.920 when Fishing Wild Service was trying to designate which they 1:58:20.960 --> 1:58:24.200 did designate critical habitat in Arizona, New Mexico for the jaguar, 1:58:24.720 --> 1:58:27.720 like the third third attempt, Ellen rabin Witz did his 1:58:27.800 --> 1:58:31.840 New York Times uh article or op ed saying that 1:58:31.960 --> 1:58:33.520 was the most ridiculous thing in the world that you're 1:58:33.560 --> 1:58:37.160 wasting money talking about critical habitat and and all the 1:58:37.200 --> 1:58:39.320 effects of critical habitat and Arizona. So here's a guy 1:58:39.360 --> 1:58:41.840 that devoted his whole life and he's like at bangs 1:58:41.880 --> 1:58:44.960 with wolves. He's just pragmatic. He said, that's not critical 1:58:45.080 --> 1:58:47.320 to the conservation of the species. But there's no doubt 1:58:47.360 --> 1:58:50.240 everybody wants to make sure that um, they're able to 1:58:50.280 --> 1:58:52.080 still come up and use that habit that come back. 1:58:52.160 --> 1:58:55.280 Because I've been in in mountain ranges where I know 1:58:55.360 --> 1:58:57.880 there's a jaguar in that mountain Rangil Mountain Island, and 1:58:57.960 --> 1:58:59.640 it's pretty cool just to know that my son and 1:58:59.680 --> 1:59:02.440 I want time carried to have Elena that he shot 1:59:02.520 --> 1:59:06.080 off a tall mountain in the Coyote Mountains and in 1:59:06.200 --> 1:59:08.080 the dark through the thick brush, and we had a 1:59:08.080 --> 1:59:11.040 bloody have Alina on our shoulders. And I knew that 1:59:11.200 --> 1:59:13.680 the jaguar, the jaguar that we knew about, was in 1:59:13.800 --> 1:59:15.960 that part of the mountain range at that time. So 1:59:16.080 --> 1:59:18.520 that has a little element of interest when when you're 1:59:18.520 --> 1:59:21.120 out there awes lots. The same way when right when 1:59:21.160 --> 1:59:24.320 we left Sonora this year, you know, the article came 1:59:24.360 --> 1:59:29.920 out on the camera traps catching down there group. Yeah, 1:59:29.920 --> 1:59:31.800 well they got them in that you know that King 1:59:31.960 --> 1:59:35.640 Ranch area down there in South Texas. Yeah there, Well, 1:59:35.720 --> 1:59:37.760 and it's what's funny there is they're spending all this 1:59:38.320 --> 1:59:42.120 uh a version of things, is it? What's funny there 1:59:42.240 --> 1:59:44.840 is there like doing a lot of awes lot recovery work. 1:59:45.560 --> 1:59:48.240 And then it turns out that's sort of the strongest um. 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:53.040 You know, the strongest populations are coming off these large 1:59:53.120 --> 1:59:55.680 cattle ranches. Yeah, there's two populations. Ones on a National 1:59:55.720 --> 1:59:58.400 Wilife Refuge and another one is on the Uturi Ranch, 1:59:58.480 --> 2:00:01.360 and I think the neighboring ranches and that's that's private 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:03.440 lands and you've got that the old mandatory who I 2:00:03.480 --> 2:00:07.480 think passed away recently. I've permitted, have you just committed 2:00:07.480 --> 2:00:11.720 to us a lot conservation? And very much Yeah, it's 2:00:11.800 --> 2:00:14.480 very much private lands. You've you've got to be managing 2:00:14.520 --> 2:00:16.880 on private lands. It's Mike Twis and and there's a 2:00:16.920 --> 2:00:19.920 graduate student that, um did I know from Arizona that's 2:00:19.920 --> 2:00:22.280 down there working on osla's right now. But I knowing 2:00:22.320 --> 2:00:24.480 Mike Twois who's run that program since I did my 2:00:24.520 --> 2:00:28.000 master's agreed down there. But obviously that that species has 2:00:28.040 --> 2:00:31.680 a little bit northerly range than than the jaguars. It's 2:00:31.760 --> 2:00:33.560 kind of well, it's kind of the same in Arizona. 2:00:33.600 --> 2:00:35.480 It's kind of the same. There's historical records that come 2:00:35.560 --> 2:00:39.160 up through central Arizona or so, but not not a 2:00:39.280 --> 2:00:42.160 breeding population in Arizona like there is in Texas. South 2:00:42.240 --> 2:00:45.200 Texas are breeding if sixty some Austles that they know 2:00:45.280 --> 2:00:47.480 I'm out there there, But Arizona it's the same thing. 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:49.040 It's one here and one there. And we have so 2:00:49.120 --> 2:00:52.320 many cameras in in those mountain ranges now that we're 2:00:52.400 --> 2:00:55.400 capturing what's sneaking around in there. I checked, are there 2:00:55.400 --> 2:01:01.040 any in Arizona right now, Oh jaguars, uh yes, right 2:01:01.080 --> 2:01:04.760 now as well as of September, and I know there 2:01:04.840 --> 2:01:07.040 was one around then. It turned up. It's high turned 2:01:07.080 --> 2:01:10.280 up on social media, got shot shot in Mexico. Back 2:01:10.280 --> 2:01:12.320 to Mexico and got shot. Yeah, there's there's a different 2:01:12.400 --> 2:01:15.080 one that. When I was down by Douglas in September, 2:01:15.400 --> 2:01:17.600 someone told me about one that was down there. I 2:01:17.640 --> 2:01:19.240 don't know if I can say where. I probably won't 2:01:19.240 --> 2:01:21.640 say where, but in the US and it got picked 2:01:21.720 --> 2:01:24.160 up by a trail camera. Houndsmen founded No, a lot 2:01:24.200 --> 2:01:26.800 of trail cams I had. I had checking out a 2:01:26.920 --> 2:01:29.160 lion that a hunter killed, because all the mountain lions 2:01:29.200 --> 2:01:31.360 get checked out at the game at Fish office, and 2:01:31.520 --> 2:01:33.120 he was he got it out of the Santa Ritos 2:01:33.120 --> 2:01:34.400 and he said they had a bunch of cameras in 2:01:34.400 --> 2:01:37.400 the Santa Rita mountains. This was several years ago. And 2:01:37.520 --> 2:01:39.440 I said, oh, you got a bunch of cameras, said 2:01:39.640 --> 2:01:41.800 you ever get one of them spotted cats. He goes 2:01:41.840 --> 2:01:44.760 yeah all the time, that's cool, and like wow, I 2:01:44.800 --> 2:01:47.640 mean hunters have trail cams out and they're getting jaguars 2:01:47.640 --> 2:01:49.480 on their trail camp. We've talked about this. There's a 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:52.640 book called Candid Creatures, and it's like trail cam images 2:01:53.400 --> 2:01:58.240 and there's a jaguar standing in the snow. The only 2:01:58.360 --> 2:02:00.880 images like the only image I think maybe like the 2:02:00.960 --> 2:02:04.360 only image in existence or something of the jaguars. There's 2:02:04.440 --> 2:02:06.680 you're talking about the historical record of jaguars. We have 2:02:06.840 --> 2:02:09.800 that list that the Game Fish Department maintained of jaguar 2:02:09.880 --> 2:02:13.480 records going all the way back, but a lot of those, 2:02:13.560 --> 2:02:15.920 even in more recent times are like like some of 2:02:15.960 --> 2:02:18.000 the jaguar records that some of these groups for using 2:02:18.080 --> 2:02:20.720 for their modeling was some high school teachers saw black 2:02:20.760 --> 2:02:24.640 jaguar across the road, and black jaguars the color phase. 2:02:24.680 --> 2:02:27.400 It's a jungle phase. It's an Amazon thing. You never 2:02:27.520 --> 2:02:30.320 have black jaguars in Mexico and to the north. Never. 2:02:30.720 --> 2:02:32.440 So someone says they see a black jaguar, we know 2:02:32.600 --> 2:02:34.800 right away, well it wasn't a jaguar. I'm not sure 2:02:34.840 --> 2:02:36.320 what it was. Yeah, it's hard to start. I mean 2:02:36.400 --> 2:02:38.440 there's a there's a thing of like measuring the validity 2:02:38.600 --> 2:02:41.560 right right, and so we've got like three classes class one, 2:02:41.600 --> 2:02:44.200 Class two, Class three. I forgot what the criteria are, 2:02:44.280 --> 2:02:48.360 but it's to rank them for for veracity, for um, 2:02:48.600 --> 2:02:51.160 how reliable they are. But some of those, some of 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:54.000 those are are just sightings, and some groups will want 2:02:54.000 --> 2:02:56.680 to include those as reliable and not. So you have 2:02:56.760 --> 2:02:58.960 to be careful. And that's why a table like that's 2:02:59.000 --> 2:03:01.680 a important. But there's a book called Borderland Jaguars. You 2:03:01.760 --> 2:03:04.520 have not seen that one, Okay, I'll send it to you. 2:03:04.840 --> 2:03:07.720 Carlos Lopos Gonzales and and Dave Brown and and in 2:03:07.880 --> 2:03:11.000 there they have probably not as complete as our list, 2:03:11.080 --> 2:03:14.040 but they have an account of the historical records of jaguars. 2:03:14.080 --> 2:03:15.520 I'd like to see it. I need to get my 2:03:15.600 --> 2:03:20.000 opinion straight. I know I like them, all right, everybody's 2:03:20.040 --> 2:03:22.600 I'd like to get pounced and scratched, kind of scratched 2:03:22.640 --> 2:03:25.360 by one, kind of just to leave a scar. You 2:03:25.480 --> 2:03:28.200 have to. It's cool to know that there's jaguars out 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:34.800 there right across the packs. Man. One nice scratch, rub 2:03:34.960 --> 2:03:36.920 some dirt in there to get it infected through. Yeah, 2:03:39.600 --> 2:03:41.600 got your final thoughts questions? Yeah, I dude, I got 2:03:41.720 --> 2:03:43.720 I got a question for you. I was talking with 2:03:43.880 --> 2:03:47.800 a buddy of mine, uh this morning on my drive 2:03:47.840 --> 2:03:50.560 back over here, and and he's I was checking in 2:03:50.640 --> 2:03:53.360 with him because he's well for a service dude, and 2:03:53.440 --> 2:03:56.600 he's getting getting grant money and he's getting a lot 2:03:56.640 --> 2:03:59.040 of in kine cash for habitat work on his place, 2:03:59.120 --> 2:04:02.920 and this is kind of his retirement job, as he 2:04:03.040 --> 2:04:06.720 calls it, learning to be a farmer, and he's uh 2:04:07.120 --> 2:04:11.800 planting a bunch of plant species and and setting his 2:04:11.920 --> 2:04:18.640 place up for muleteer winning habitat and upland game Big 2:04:18.960 --> 2:04:24.040 loves loves the pheasants and quail. And he is kind 2:04:24.040 --> 2:04:27.080 of running me through his list of what he's got 2:04:27.240 --> 2:04:32.040 coming up and some of his successes and failures. And uh, 2:04:32.520 --> 2:04:34.920 I said, well, yeah, a lot of work right now, 2:04:35.040 --> 2:04:38.240 but hopefully you'll figure out how to strike a balance. 2:04:38.880 --> 2:04:44.960 He's like, yeah, I don't think so. He's like, to 2:04:45.040 --> 2:04:46.480 be honest with you, I'm not sure any of the 2:04:46.520 --> 2:04:50.200 ship is supposed to be here. And I mean, he 2:04:50.400 --> 2:04:54.320 is working with ecologists and he's got a litany of 2:04:54.680 --> 2:04:59.160 really good contacts from his past life. But that did 2:04:59.360 --> 2:05:01.760 just make me think of this question, like do you 2:05:01.960 --> 2:05:06.600 find yourself ever get kind of bogged down in the 2:05:06.760 --> 2:05:11.320 management of things, Like we've been manipulating landscapes and species 2:05:12.280 --> 2:05:16.640 for so long do you ever kind of get to 2:05:16.720 --> 2:05:19.840 these points where you're like, sure, I guess screw it, 2:05:20.320 --> 2:05:22.400 because it's not we're so far away from what it 2:05:22.600 --> 2:05:25.960 was or what we think it was. I don't think so. 2:05:26.440 --> 2:05:28.120 I mean, I don't. I don't think I get get 2:05:28.200 --> 2:05:31.360 that discouraged. There's there's things like in the wolf Recovery 2:05:31.400 --> 2:05:34.320 world where I just wish it wasn't a constant stream 2:05:34.360 --> 2:05:37.480 of litigation and litigation and litigation. Wish we could just 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:41.120 get on with the business of conserving um carnivores and 2:05:41.480 --> 2:05:45.600 managing them as um as species. But but uh, I don't. 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:48.040 I think I'm optimistic. I think there's just a lot 2:05:48.120 --> 2:05:51.040 of really good work going on right now throughout the West, 2:05:51.120 --> 2:05:57.040 habitat wise and and movement wise and everything that's great. 2:05:59.200 --> 2:06:02.080 Phil Someoney's addressed the elephant in the room that like, 2:06:02.120 --> 2:06:04.320 basically Janice has nothing to do with the show anymore. 2:06:05.600 --> 2:06:08.800 He's moved on to bigger he's he's out of honest 2:06:08.880 --> 2:06:11.360 once to get us out on assignments content I was 2:06:11.400 --> 2:06:15.360 assuming I was coming, and he's all busy with we 2:06:15.440 --> 2:06:16.920 got a lot of we've got a lot of irons 2:06:16.960 --> 2:06:18.520 in the fire and and he's tending to a couple. 2:06:19.640 --> 2:06:23.680 Got well, yeah, he's out ice fishing. But you don't 2:06:23.680 --> 2:06:25.120 have any you don't have your thing with That makes 2:06:25.160 --> 2:06:27.640 the honest sounds anymore, do you? I was thinking about 2:06:27.640 --> 2:06:30.560 bringing it to uh to Nashville next week, so you 2:06:30.640 --> 2:06:36.720 know he won't be there either. No, you got he's 2:06:36.840 --> 2:06:40.440 changing his damn thing. He's not even like a co host. Know, 2:06:41.640 --> 2:06:44.520 he's abandoned, he's moved on. He's he's left the nest. 2:06:44.800 --> 2:06:48.520 He's just busy. Yeah. Yeah, if you weren't cracking the whip, 2:06:51.800 --> 2:06:55.400 it's not true outdoors, Yeah, too much skin. He's missing 2:06:55.480 --> 2:06:59.600 some good skiing though, isn't he? I just said him 2:06:59.600 --> 2:07:01.280 to know what about out that it's puke in the 2:07:01.360 --> 2:07:04.080 nar man he's in final Like, I went to high 2:07:04.080 --> 2:07:06.560 school about forty minutes south of there, in college about 2:07:06.560 --> 2:07:09.360 an hour northwest of there, so familiar with that country. 2:07:09.720 --> 2:07:12.960 The only uh, all everything skiers say is annoying, But uh, 2:07:14.200 --> 2:07:15.560 I just hear one good one the other day is 2:07:15.640 --> 2:07:19.280 someone's talking about the powder and he said, um, that 2:07:19.440 --> 2:07:23.720 nar isn't gonna shred itself. I love it. I love it. 2:07:26.440 --> 2:07:29.600 Blower all right, Jeff Helen fingering what what's your favorite 2:07:29.680 --> 2:07:31.560 of all the pamphlets and books you read? I think 2:07:31.600 --> 2:07:35.400 you you say that your masterpieces the jack Book, Hunts 2:07:35.440 --> 2:07:38.240 and Recipes. Yep. And that's even available as a pdf 2:07:38.560 --> 2:07:41.760 on my website deer nut dot com. Um, just the 2:07:42.160 --> 2:07:46.240 doughy r nut dot com. Um. I've got a whole 2:07:46.240 --> 2:07:48.640 bunch of PDFs that are magazine articles that I've written 2:07:48.840 --> 2:07:50.760 and you can. I've got Deer of the Southwest. I 2:07:50.840 --> 2:07:53.400 brought you a copy which is Cow's white Tail and 2:07:53.440 --> 2:07:57.240 Desert Meal Deer in the Southwest Northern Mexico. Um. That's 2:07:57.240 --> 2:08:02.160 available on the website and um my Instagram Jim Deer 2:08:02.800 --> 2:08:04.560 and and deer has an E after the end, like 2:08:04.680 --> 2:08:06.880 John Deere. Fact, it's a little John Deer logo that 2:08:06.960 --> 2:08:08.600 photoshop to look like a meal there. Do you want 2:08:08.600 --> 2:08:12.760 wanna come down and do a jack rabbit hunt with you, man? Yeah, definitely, definitely. 2:08:13.080 --> 2:08:15.560 I'd like to you guarantee me that we'll get tons 2:08:15.560 --> 2:08:18.000 of them right without trying very hard? Well, no, you 2:08:18.160 --> 2:08:20.240 you drive around if you want tons, you drive around 2:08:20.240 --> 2:08:21.560 and shoot him out of the window. And we don't 2:08:21.600 --> 2:08:24.080 do that. We walk, I mean walk the land, so 2:08:24.320 --> 2:08:26.360 we don't walk back with tons, but it's a fun hunt. 2:08:28.000 --> 2:08:29.720 You get bit up by Mike's quite a bit with those. 2:08:30.360 --> 2:08:32.520 No they're not no mighty, No, they've got they've got 2:08:32.560 --> 2:08:36.800 a couple of internal parasites like the the butt fly larva, 2:08:37.320 --> 2:08:40.040 a big thumb size cute. When they get under the skin, 2:08:41.160 --> 2:08:43.920 it doesn't affect the meat. But we in our junior 2:08:44.000 --> 2:08:45.960 jack camp that I developed for kids ten years ago, 2:08:46.000 --> 2:08:47.800 we bring kids together and we we show them how 2:08:47.800 --> 2:08:50.120 to jack rabbit hunt, show them how to um clean 2:08:50.240 --> 2:08:53.240 and cook the jack rabbits. We find some of those big, 2:08:53.480 --> 2:08:56.040 ugly but fly larva under the skin and and we 2:08:56.240 --> 2:08:59.960 turned a liability into a positive. When we we still 2:09:00.080 --> 2:09:02.480 did we brought a little scale, no, we started weighing 2:09:02.520 --> 2:09:04.360 them and we gave out an award for the largest 2:09:04.440 --> 2:09:06.960 buttfly large that s the kids are going, Do I 2:09:07.040 --> 2:09:08.320 have one? Do I have one? Does mine have one? 2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:10.920 Can you start on? So when you grab them, see 2:09:10.920 --> 2:09:12.400 I thought, because you guys are down where it doesn't 2:09:12.400 --> 2:09:15.000 get cold and winter enough, when you grab him your arms, 2:09:15.040 --> 2:09:17.480 don't just get them by min now. And we hunt 2:09:17.560 --> 2:09:19.879 them there open ye around but we hunt them October 2:09:19.960 --> 2:09:22.920 to March, just a season so we can keep the meat, 2:09:23.080 --> 2:09:28.160 and there is less ectoparasites on them, yep, as opposed 2:09:28.160 --> 2:09:31.000 to the endo inside were outside like like the like 2:09:31.080 --> 2:09:33.600 the insects on the outside. But it's not not bad 2:09:33.640 --> 2:09:35.240 at all. I mean, you just don't when you grab them, 2:09:35.240 --> 2:09:37.960 they're nice and clean, and you skin them and you've 2:09:38.000 --> 2:09:41.440 got some really nice clean meat that cooks up like beeft. Wow, 2:09:41.880 --> 2:09:44.920 how much did you learn, Phil? Like on one to ten, 2:09:45.320 --> 2:09:48.480 we're paying attention. It was a solid eight. You guys, 2:09:49.000 --> 2:09:51.320 You guys ran the gamut. He was so many things 2:09:51.400 --> 2:09:54.320 were talked about. Yeah, yeah, you're soaking it up. Soaking 2:09:54.360 --> 2:09:57.480 it up. Mostly I was fantasizing about my Neanderthal mingling 2:09:59.240 --> 2:10:01.720 in this hypothet nicole situation. I feel had to go back. 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:05.480 He went back behind that curtain for a while. That's right. 2:10:06.720 --> 2:10:10.080 It's imagining like a Romeo and Juliet's situation forbidden love. 2:10:10.280 --> 2:10:15.920 Phil search history is that sounds like a movie. I 2:10:16.000 --> 2:10:18.240 know tonight, I'm gonna want it tomorrow. I try to 2:10:18.320 --> 2:10:25.400 tap into Phil's incognito search that you don't want to, 2:10:26.880 --> 2:10:33.640 all right, Jim Halflefinger outdoorsman biologists, man in the man 2:10:33.720 --> 2:10:37.720 in the arena, A man in the arena when it 2:10:37.840 --> 2:10:42.280 comes to wildlife and wildlife management and UM and a 2:10:42.360 --> 2:10:46.040 great advocate for hunters and wildlife. Thank you for joining us. 2:10:46.480 --> 2:11:03.160 Thanks it would great be here. Comp