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Speaker 1: In recent years, hostility to immigration and immigrants has become

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Speaker 1: a common theme in many countries around the world. In

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Speaker 1: the US, anti immigration rhetoric helped propel Donald Trump to

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Speaker 1: the White House.

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Speaker 2: A Trump administration will secure and defend our borders. Without borders,

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Speaker 2: we do not have a country, folks, we do not

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Speaker 2: have a product. We will build a wall and Mexico

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Speaker 2: will pay for the wall.

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Speaker 1: Immigration was front and center during the Brexit debate in

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Speaker 1: the UK Times.

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Speaker 3: A week, I'll spend it on our priorities and yes,

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Speaker 3: let us.

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Speaker 4: Take back control of our borders with a sensible, fair

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Speaker 4: and impartial.

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Speaker 1: Right wing politicians in Italy, Germany and other European nations

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Speaker 1: promised to close borders and kick out some migrants, like

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Speaker 1: France's Marine.

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Speaker 5: Lapenn I will bring back Francis sovereignty in all areas,

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Speaker 5: which means the freedom for the French people to decide

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Speaker 5: for themselves and defend their interests. I will control immigration

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Speaker 5: and re establish security for all bultus.

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Speaker 1: And Yet, amid all this anti immigration sentiment, one country

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Speaker 1: stands out by moving in the opposite direction. It's Canada.

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Speaker 6: We have a population that is aging. We need people

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Speaker 6: to arrive with their talents, with their hopes, with their dreams,

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Speaker 6: with their capacities to work hard, to build our communities,

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Speaker 6: to build our future. We are welcoming in people who

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Speaker 6: are being turned away from other countries for the wrong reasons,

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Speaker 6: and it is an incredible benefit to Canada.

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Speaker 1: That is Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He's leading a

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Speaker 1: push for Canada to let in half a million permanent

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Speaker 1: residents each year by twenty twenty five. Many will be

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Speaker 1: those who have specific training and skills to fill jobs

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Speaker 1: where there's a shortage within Canada's own workforce. The country

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Speaker 1: is also opening the door to more international students, temporary workers,

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Speaker 1: and refugees. If the current pace of growth continues, Canada's

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Speaker 1: population of forty million people is expected to double in

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Speaker 1: the next twenty six years and potentially reach one hundred

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Speaker 1: million before the end of the century.

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Speaker 4: I think Canada is basically running the world's biggest experiments

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Speaker 4: and trying to prove or disprove that this is the

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Speaker 4: way to go.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Canadian Economy reporter Randy Tantong Knight is here to

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Speaker 1: explain why Canada is bucking the global trend and opening

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Speaker 1: its borders to so many more immigrants, and why, despite

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Speaker 1: being welcomed in, it can often be a long, difficult

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Speaker 1: struggle for immigrants to actually find work once they get there.

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Speaker 1: I'm wes Kasova. That's today on the Big Tick, Randy.

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Speaker 1: A lot of countries are trying to keep immigrants out

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Speaker 1: and Canada seems to be doing exactly the opposite. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us why Canada is welcoming in so many immigrants?

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Speaker 4: In trying to understand the support and the system that

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Speaker 4: we have in Canada today, I think it's worth revisiting

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Speaker 4: some of the key changes that happen in the country

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Speaker 4: over the recent decades. If you look back at history,

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Speaker 4: it might surprise you that Canada hasn't always been this

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Speaker 4: open and welcoming. The country used to have an immigration

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Speaker 4: policy that allowed officials to refuse entry to immigrants based

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Speaker 4: on politics, nationality, race, or occupation, and at some point

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Speaker 4: the fifties used to bar entry for homosexuals too, and

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Speaker 4: the system back then kind of favored white Europeans. But

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Speaker 4: that changed in the sixties. That's when the country introduced

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Speaker 4: the points system that we still have here today to

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Speaker 4: eliminate that racial and national discrimination from its immigration policy.

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Speaker 1: How does that point system work.

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Speaker 4: It's basically a ranking structure where potential immigrants are assign

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Speaker 4: point in several categories, and that includes age, level of education,

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Speaker 4: employment opportunities, and English or French proficiencies. That system help

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Speaker 4: bringing in people of diverse origins and background and we

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Speaker 4: see that today that the majority of newcomers in recent

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Speaker 4: years came from places like India, China, the Philippines, and Nigeria.

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Speaker 4: And after that system was introduced, Canada adopted multiculturalism as well,

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Speaker 4: is the first country in the world to do so.

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Speaker 4: And what it is is basically what you often hear

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Speaker 4: in the US is this concept of melting pots, right,

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Speaker 4: where different elements of different cultures are combined or fused

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Speaker 4: together to become one. But multiculturalism philosophy is where different

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Speaker 4: cultures sort of co exist and retain their distinct identities.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes it's described as a salad bowl or mosaic, and

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Speaker 4: it promotes cultural diversity, and so that sort of helps

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Speaker 4: create this image of being a welcoming society to immigrants.

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Speaker 1: So the way it works is if I want to

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Speaker 1: move to Canada from someplace else and I apply, then

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Speaker 1: I get certain points for various aspects of who I am.

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Speaker 7: Yes.

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Speaker 4: So normally what an immigrant or prospect newcomer would do

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Speaker 4: is to submit their profile into the system and you

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Speaker 4: just feel in all the information about you, your background,

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Speaker 4: your skills, your education, your experience, and then you would

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Speaker 4: get points based on those and for each time. You know,

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Speaker 4: once you get enough scores, you get an invitation to

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Speaker 4: come to Canada. And so basically only the highest caliber

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Speaker 4: candidates or skill workers that have skills that are responding

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Speaker 4: to the needs of the economy are invited to come

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Speaker 4: to Canada. And that's the approach that's different from many

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Speaker 4: of its peer countries.

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Speaker 1: So what are the different points, What do you get

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Speaker 1: points for and what do you not get points for.

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Speaker 4: So, for example, the system tend to favor those who

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Speaker 4: are younger, and if you have master degrees or PhDs,

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Speaker 4: you then get more points as well. If you have

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Speaker 4: more skills or more experience in areas that is sort

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Speaker 4: of in demand in the economy, then you would get

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Speaker 4: more points. And if you are very proficient in English

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Speaker 4: or in French, then you would get more points. So

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Speaker 4: it's all about your skills, right. So the best way

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Speaker 4: to think about the system is to look at it

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Speaker 4: as an economic and labor program that's meant to boost

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Speaker 4: a number of working age population in the country quickly.

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Speaker 1: And Canada has a very ambitious goal to attract people

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Speaker 1: who meet that criteria, people who can help drive the economy.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so that public support and the system allows the

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Speaker 4: government to be increasingly ambitious. And the government has set

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Speaker 4: a target of welcoming about half a million permanent residents

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Speaker 4: each year, right, And that's quite a lot. And then

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Speaker 4: there are other parts of that international student, temporary foreign

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Speaker 4: workers and refugees. That's another group that's just as lash right.

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Speaker 4: So last year we saw a million people arriving in

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Speaker 4: Canada over the course of twenty twenty two. At this

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Speaker 4: current pace of growth, Canada, which is the smallest G

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Speaker 4: seven country by population at the moment, would double its

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Speaker 4: resident in about twenty six years and surpass countries like Italy, France,

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Speaker 4: the UK and Germany by twenty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: And why is it so important for Canada to attract

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Speaker 1: immigrants to drive this economic growth?

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Speaker 4: So all advanced economies are facing similar challenges, right of

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Speaker 4: Asian population, declining fertility rates, Asian workforce, and they're a

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Speaker 4: dressing it in a different way, But I think the

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Speaker 4: Canada approach is basically convinced that immigration is the way

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Speaker 4: to tackle this.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 4: By adding young workforce to the country, it would help

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Speaker 4: offset some of the economic drag of that Asian workforce.

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Speaker 4: And we see France, for example, trying to raise the

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Speaker 4: retirement age. We see Japan trying to add robots and

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Speaker 4: automation to help address some of the shortages in their economy.

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Speaker 4: But Canada is choosing immigration as its way to tackle this.

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Speaker 4: So different countries are doing different things, and I think

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Speaker 4: Canada is basically running the world's biggest experiments and trying

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Speaker 4: to prove or disprove that this is the way to go.

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Speaker 1: Justin Trudeau, Canada's Prime minister, has really been pushing this heavily.

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Speaker 1: Is there a lot of public support for this? What

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Speaker 1: do Canadians think about it?

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Speaker 4: There's a really really wide public support. The most recent survey,

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Speaker 4: and this is back in twenty twenty two, Canadians have

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Speaker 4: never been more supportive of high levels of immigration. So

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Speaker 4: if we look at this opinion poll by the Enveronic

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Speaker 4: Institute in nineteen seventy seven, sixty one percent of respondents

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Speaker 4: said that they agree with the statements that immigration levels

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Speaker 4: are too high, and only thirty five percent disagreed. Now,

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Speaker 4: last year we saw the biggest support for immigration ever,

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Speaker 4: where about seven to ten people now disagree with that statement.

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Speaker 4: So I think that shows that as the economy grows,

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Speaker 4: as more immigrants arrived, to support and acceptance grew as well.

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Speaker 1: So they have this program in place, they have big,

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Speaker 1: ambitious goals. How's it actually working.

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Speaker 4: By adding more immigrants to the economy, you are filling

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Speaker 4: some gaps. There are shortages in jobs right now in

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Speaker 4: Canada in sectors like healthcare, construction, and some of these

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Speaker 4: immigrants are filling in those much needed roles. And of

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Speaker 4: course when you bring in more immigrants, they not only

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Speaker 4: add to the supply of labor, they also create demand

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Speaker 4: within the economy during a period of low growth. The

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Speaker 4: economy is more resilient than expected now and that is

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Speaker 4: all because of the current immigration policy. But the most

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Speaker 4: obvious strain that we see from high levels of immigration

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Speaker 4: is in the housing market. Canada already has this existing

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Speaker 4: shortage of housing where not enough houses are being built,

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Speaker 4: and by adding more people it worsened that issue.

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Speaker 1: And especially in big cities like Vancouver, rents are absolutely astronomical.

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Speaker 4: Right, and this I think hurts immigrants themselves as well

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Speaker 4: as younger generations who are renting or are looking to

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Speaker 4: buy a house, because the shortage meant prices are rising

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Speaker 4: much faster and income growth can't really keep up with that, right,

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Speaker 4: and each year they are being left further behind in

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Speaker 4: building wealth or equity compared to previous generations who own homes.

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Speaker 4: And this is where a lot of the economists point

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Speaker 4: to that if this gap keep getting larger, if this

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Speaker 4: problem is still ongoing, it could diminish the public support

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Speaker 4: that Canada enjoys for so long and give rise to

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Speaker 4: some of the anti immigration attitudes that we see in

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Speaker 4: peer countries.

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Speaker 1: After the break, some new immigrants to Canada find lives

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Speaker 1: not so easy once they get there. Randy. Another challenge

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Speaker 1: you write about with immigration is that even though the

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Speaker 1: country vets people with this point system, highly qualified people

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Speaker 1: who come from other countries often can't find work in

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Speaker 1: the fields that they're trained in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is one of the more common experiences that

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Speaker 4: I heard from immigrants. After immigrants come into the country,

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Speaker 4: they find that the efficiency of the system that's so

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Speaker 4: good at bringing people here stopped there. I think there's

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Speaker 4: a disconnect between the immigration system and the job market,

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Speaker 4: or there's a mismatch between the supply of skilled immigrants

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Speaker 4: and the needs for the labor market, as well as

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Speaker 4: the resistance by some employers to really embrace and recognize

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Speaker 4: foreign skills. The country basically welcomed them with an open arm,

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Speaker 4: but because of their skills and education, experience broad and

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Speaker 4: all that, but when they arrived require that they have

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Speaker 4: the so called Canadian experience, and that prevented many of

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Speaker 4: them from getting a job that they're qualified to do,

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Speaker 4: just because they're never worked or study in Canada. And

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Speaker 4: they often find themselves in entry level jobs even if

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Speaker 4: they were managers or leaders in their fields before they

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Speaker 4: came to Canada. And you know, I think housing and

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Speaker 4: the cost of living that that we talked about also

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Speaker 4: play a role in this because many newcomers when they arrived,

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Speaker 4: they arrived with just enough savings to live in major

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Speaker 4: cities for three to six months maybe, so there's not

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Speaker 4: a lot of time for them to wait around to

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Speaker 4: find the right job to come along, right, So they're

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Speaker 4: forced to get survival jobs, low wage jobs, just to

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Speaker 4: get by and support themselves or their families and One

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Speaker 4: of the immigrants that I spoke with, David Ojina from Nigeria,

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Speaker 4: experienced just that right. He had to work in a

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Speaker 4: minimum wage job for five years of being in this

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Speaker 4: country and then go back to school to get his

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Speaker 4: master's degree to get a job that allowed him to

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Speaker 4: grow professionally. And he's been in Canada for ten years now,

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Speaker 4: and half of that time he was basically underemployed. And

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Speaker 4: that points to the inefficiencies within the system, and we

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Speaker 4: can really harvest that benefit of immigration fully because of

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Speaker 4: this disconnect, this mismatch.

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Speaker 7: It's a long five years. And imagine if I was

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Speaker 7: not passionate, I was not taking off an answer, I

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Speaker 7: wasn't pushing, I would have set to it and still

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Speaker 7: be at that level. Went back to school. Wasn't like

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Speaker 7: the magic kill that made this happen, but me also

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Speaker 7: having to drive the tennacity, the hunger to demonstrate that

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Speaker 7: you know, I want this.

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Speaker 1: Randy, one of the immigrants you spoke to was a

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Speaker 1: nurse who was originally from Rwanda and came to Canada.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about her?

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Speaker 4: So, Bahati Maganjo from Rwanda. She grew up and was

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Speaker 4: trained as a nurse, in Kenya, but when she arrived

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Speaker 4: in Nova Scotia in twenty twenty one, she couldn't really

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Speaker 4: work as a nurse despite her training. She could only

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Speaker 4: work as a continuing care assistant in a retirement home.

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Speaker 4: And you know, her plan was to just basically work

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Speaker 4: there for a while and at some point get training

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Speaker 4: so that she could be qualified as a nurse and practice.

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Speaker 3: It's very frustrating, really, because the shortage is very in

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Speaker 3: your face even as you're working, let's say as a

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Speaker 3: SCA or whatever job you're doing. It's very much present.

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Speaker 3: So it's very frustrating knowing that you have the skills,

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Speaker 3: you have the ability, but the system, the environment is

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Speaker 3: not conducive to be able to transition.

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Speaker 4: This is one of the more common issues among immigrants

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Speaker 4: as well trained nurses and doctors from abroad. The sort

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Speaker 4: of this efficiencies within the system put newcomers on the sideline.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you see some truck drivers driving ubers,

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Speaker 4: or some train doctors having to sit and wait to

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Speaker 4: get qualified to work in the country. Right, And there's

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Speaker 4: this joke that I often hear in Canada that the

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Speaker 4: best place to have a heart attack is in the

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Speaker 4: back of the cab and there's some truth to that.

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Speaker 4: The system doesn't really utilize some of the best and

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Speaker 4: brightest people we bring into the country because they face

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Speaker 4: with this issue of credential recognition, certifications and all that.

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Speaker 4: So some of the provinces are now trying to change that,

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Speaker 4: and we see efforts by provinces like Nova Scotia, Alberta

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Speaker 4: and British Columbia in trying to get these people on

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Speaker 4: board and get these people to areas where they are

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Speaker 4: most needed. Right and so in the case of Bahati,

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Speaker 4: she's in Picto County in Nova Scotia and she is

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Speaker 4: now part of the province's pilot program to integrate internationally

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Speaker 4: educated nurses and she's now expected to start working by

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Speaker 4: July as a register nurse in the county.

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Speaker 1: And so in larger cities where there are more say

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Speaker 1: doctors and nurses, they're less likely to find a position,

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Speaker 1: but where there's a greater need, in more rural or

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Speaker 1: distant areas, they're welcoming in these people to give them

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Speaker 1: jobs where they're not able to find Canadians to do them. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I think because of the need in some of

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Speaker 4: the provinces, especially in rural communities right, there are much

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Speaker 4: greater needs because it's a much older communities because young

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Speaker 4: people left to find opportunities in big cities. So because

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Speaker 4: of that need, there are more responsive in trying to

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Speaker 4: change and adapt their system to take advantage of the

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Speaker 4: available trained professionals that are in the province or are

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Speaker 4: broad and they're trying to bring in right and so

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Speaker 4: there are i think conscious efforts to try to integrate

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Speaker 4: these professionals in faster than some of the more popular areas.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, is anyone in Canada against this

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Speaker 1: big push for more immigrants? You had said that public

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Speaker 1: opinion is very positive about the immigration program. Who's against

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Speaker 1: it is they They're a vocal opposition to rising number

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Speaker 1: of immigrants in the country.

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Speaker 4: In thinking about the opposition to immigration in Canada, it's

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Speaker 4: the context of it is different from what we would

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Speaker 4: see in other countries. So just to give you an example,

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Speaker 4: Quebec the second most populous province in Canada, because they

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Speaker 4: have concerned over the languages and culture there. The province's

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Speaker 4: goal has always been to preserve its culture and language

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Speaker 4: and maintain its influence within the country. So the immigration

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Speaker 4: policy sort of follow that. Even though they resisted matching

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Speaker 4: the high levels of immigration set by the federal government.

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Speaker 4: They still accept immigration, but they require that they speak French,

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Speaker 4: for example. And across political spectrum, I think the majority

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Speaker 4: of the people support immigration. If you see people who

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Speaker 4: vote for Conservative Party of Canada, for example, their support

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Speaker 4: compared to other parties may be softer, but the majority

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Speaker 4: of people who vote for that party still in support

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Speaker 4: of the current immigration policy. I think that's partly because

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Speaker 4: it's wide support that we have foster over the past

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Speaker 4: few decades sort of prevent any political parties to take

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Speaker 4: on that anti immigrant policies because it won't be popular

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Speaker 4: among voters. And we saw that one outlier political party

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Speaker 4: in Canada ran its campaign on anti mass immigration and

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Speaker 4: they weren't successful at all.

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Speaker 1: In the poll, you called this a great experiment that

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Speaker 1: a lot of other countries are going to be watching

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Speaker 1: to see how it plays out. What are you watching for?

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Speaker 1: How do you think this plays out in the future.

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Speaker 4: We've seen some of the drawbacks and benefits to the

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Speaker 4: economy from this policy, but a lot of the issues

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Speaker 4: that we see now are more short term. Canada I

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Speaker 4: think looks at immigration as more of a long term

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Speaker 4: solution to demographic challenges of the climbing fertility and aging workforce.

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Speaker 4: So there's not a lot of research out there yet

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Speaker 4: on the economic implications of mass immigration in the current

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Speaker 4: modern context. I think one key metric that I'm watching

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Speaker 4: out for is whether this immigration policy can raise the

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Speaker 4: standard of living for everyone in the economy. We know

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Speaker 4: that boosting immigration leads to higher GDP growth, but does

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Speaker 4: that translate to higher GDP per capita down the line?

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Speaker 4: I mean, does that guarantee long term prosperity for everyone?

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Speaker 4: Only time will tell, and as I mentioned, the country

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Speaker 4: will be bigger than France, Italy, the UK and Germany

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Speaker 4: by twenty fifty. But you will the economy perform better

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Speaker 4: a few decades from now compared to these countries two

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Speaker 4: decades from now. That's yet to be seen.

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Speaker 1: Randy, thanks so much for speaking with me. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take.

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