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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff I never told you a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, and today we are thrilled to once again

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Speaker 2: be joined by friend of the show contributor Amazing Personal

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Speaker 2: Around Joey.

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Speaker 1: Welcome, Joey. Hello. Yes, we always.

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Speaker 2: Love having you, and we've been talking about some future

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Speaker 2: projects that we'll.

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Speaker 1: Be working on together.

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Speaker 2: Yes, today you were bringing a topic that is timely

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Speaker 2: important and I specifically have a lot of thoughts about

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Speaker 2: so I'm very eager to get in to it.

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Speaker 1: So it's Pride Month, the happy Pride months.

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Speaker 3: Everybody here, Yes, And with that, I figured you know this.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure a lot of peopleeople are feeling. This has

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Speaker 3: been a little bit of a weird Pride seasons for

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Speaker 3: a lot of reasons, and so today I kind of

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Speaker 3: want to talk about one of the big issues that

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Speaker 3: is at the root of like some of this weirdness,

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Speaker 3: which is of course should be straight boyfriends of bisexual

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Speaker 3: women come to Pride.

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Speaker 1: Never mind, but I'm sorry, I.

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Speaker 3: Need to get one thing out of the way really quick.

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Speaker 3: That whole argument online is driving me insane. It is

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Speaker 3: not a real issue, you guys. I have yet to

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Speaker 3: see somebody argue, for no, we should not have any

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Speaker 3: straight people at Pride. I think people are making a

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Speaker 3: big deal out of something that is not an issue anyways.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know this is a thing.

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Speaker 1: This has been a thing. This has been a thing

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Speaker 1: on TikTok and the internet.

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Speaker 3: As I would say, people who's I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: get into this, but you know, I think some people

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Speaker 3: whose view of the queer community and queer issues is

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Speaker 3: limited very much to online spaces and.

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Speaker 1: It's OK, people are dying. I think we can focus

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Speaker 1: on other things. And that ping said translation today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that leads us to what I'm actually going

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Speaker 3: to talk about today, which is pinkwashing, which is a

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Speaker 3: word that you may or may not have heard before.

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Speaker 3: If you haven't, this is from dictionary dot com quote.

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Speaker 3: Pinkwashing is a critical term used to refer to the

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Speaker 3: practice of attempting to benefit from purported support for LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: plus rights, often as a way to profit or to

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Speaker 3: distract from a separate agenda.

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Speaker 1: And so there's two main ways that we really see this.

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Speaker 3: One is corporate pinkwashing and the other is political pinkwashing.

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Speaker 3: So corporate prinkwashing, you know, corporations using Pride Month or

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Speaker 3: other sort of surface level marketing tactics to try to

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Speaker 3: cater to the LGBTQ plus community while also doing harm

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Speaker 3: to those communities, whether through their economic and political interests

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Speaker 3: or by just selling harmful products. And then for political

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Speaker 3: pink washing, certain political parties, governing bodies, or individuals will

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Speaker 3: use supposed support I'm saying, supposed support for the LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: plus community to draw attention away from other less savory

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Speaker 3: aspects of their regime.

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Speaker 1: I also want a note I did just learn this. Apparently.

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Speaker 3: Pink washing also has been used by like as a

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Speaker 3: term has been used by some breast cancer awareness activists

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Speaker 3: to describe companies that will like use the pink ribbon

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Speaker 3: symbol or like.

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Speaker 1: Be like we're going to donate some.

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Speaker 3: Money to breast cancer research or whatever, like kind of

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Speaker 3: advertise that they are like supporting, you know, survivors while

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Speaker 3: also making products that have harmful chemicals that.

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Speaker 1: You know can cause cancer and a lot of other issues.

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Speaker 3: So that is not what we're talking about right now,

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Speaker 3: but that is also something that is bad, and I

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Speaker 3: think it ties into the bigger kind of issue. Of course,

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Speaker 3: aberrations using social justice narratives to make a profit rather

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Speaker 3: than to actually help those communities. So this originally was

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Speaker 3: just going to be about political pink washing, but I

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Speaker 3: do think, especially given the moment that we're at right now,

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Speaker 3: it is also important to talk about corporate pink washing

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Speaker 3: and also how this ties into political pink washing. So

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna start by talking a little bit of out

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Speaker 3: corporate pink washing. So from a twenty twenty two inequality

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Speaker 3: dot org article on the topic, they said, quote, akin

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Speaker 3: to the massive Christmas ification, that is a hard word

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Speaker 3: to say. Stores undergo each December first, or I guess

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Speaker 3: closer to like November first at this point, Yeah, October

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Speaker 3: June first brings a wave of rainbows, pride flags of

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Speaker 3: varying shades, and of course the phrase love is love

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Speaker 3: in every font, color, and style. Imaginable corporations and organizations

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Speaker 3: of all stripes, from Advisor to bud Light attempts to

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Speaker 3: express allyship by covering their low.

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Speaker 1: Goes in rainbows.

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Speaker 3: Even the US Marines shared an image of rainbow bullets

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Speaker 3: dropped to a camouflaghed helmet.

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Speaker 1: I hate that so much. They're rainbow bulet Okay, I was,

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Speaker 1: but I think the moment.

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Speaker 3: That like, I like turned me off to the idea

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Speaker 3: of like mainstream pride parades for me personally, wasn't twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: so before the pandemic, I was at the Chicago Pride

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Speaker 3: Parade and there was an FBI float, Like what, it

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Speaker 3: was so weird, Like, I just it was so Also

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Speaker 3: you could hear like silence around like everybody.

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Speaker 1: Robbie was like what, Yeah, it was so.

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Speaker 3: Weird, But I mean, okay, so so But that kind

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Speaker 3: of anecdoting side, I think I'm sure a lot of

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Speaker 3: people that have gone to Pride parades in recent years

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Speaker 3: have noticed it's gotten very corporate. So yeah, another phrase

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Speaker 3: that's used to describe this phenomenon is rainbow capitalism.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to kind of use this interchangeably.

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Speaker 3: And then I also want to point out this article

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Speaker 3: was written in twenty twenty two, which is relevant because

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Speaker 3: we'd a weird spot, like I said, when it comes

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Speaker 3: to corporate pinkwashing, because this kind of all kind of

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Speaker 3: came to a head last year in June twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: One of the companies that this quote mentioned was bud Light,

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Speaker 3: which was one of the companies kind of at the

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Speaker 3: center of everything that happened last year. I'm sure if

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Speaker 3: you've been on the internet, if you've been paying attention

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Speaker 3: to the news at all of the past year, you

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Speaker 3: kind of know the rundown of what happened. But there

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Speaker 3: was this kind of huge right wing backlash to companies

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Speaker 3: like Target and Starbucks and all these companies are marketing

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Speaker 3: things for pride. Bud Light was on the companies where

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Speaker 3: there was like this huge backlash because they partnered with

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Speaker 3: Dylan Malvany. They did not handle the backlash well. They

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Speaker 3: kind of just dropped her without really reaching out to

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Speaker 3: her anything. And like there were all these weird videos

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Speaker 3: of conservatives like destroying bud like cans and all of that.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's interesting to point out again, like

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Speaker 1: I think this is.

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Speaker 3: Sort of a weird thing to be talking about now

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Speaker 3: because we're like one year out from this sort of

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Speaker 3: pivot that.

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Speaker 1: We've made where.

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Speaker 3: We've kind of seen the ways that pinkwashing isn't a

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Speaker 3: very reliable measure of progress. So let's kind of start

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Speaker 3: by talking about, regardless of the backlash and everything that's

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Speaker 3: happened in the past year, why this particular marketing tactic

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Speaker 3: is bad. So again, from inequality dot Org quote to

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Speaker 3: an LGBTQ plus community that has a national poverty rate

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Speaker 3: of twenty two percent compared to sixteen percent of SIS

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Speaker 3: straight people. Rainbow capitalism is a slap in the face

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Speaker 3: away for corporations to reap the benefits of queer allyship

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Speaker 3: without spearheading initiatives or promoting tangible policies that will have

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Speaker 3: a positive impact on the community.

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Speaker 1: Compared to the.

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Speaker 3: National poverty rate of twelve percent in twenty fifteen, Transgender

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Speaker 3: Americans had a national poverty rate of more than double

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Speaker 3: at twenty nine percent in twenty fifteen. And then they

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Speaker 3: also point out that transcender people of color suff for

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Speaker 3: even worse poverty rates, with forty three percent of Latino,

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Speaker 3: forty one percent of Native American, and forty percent of

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Speaker 3: multiracial and thirty eight percent of black transgender people living

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Speaker 3: in poverty. This was only exacerbated during the Panamic. So

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Speaker 3: they then point out quote. Defenders of pink washing argue

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Speaker 3: that it creates mainstream visibility for LGBTQ plus community.

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Speaker 1: Mainstream visibility of the quote.

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Speaker 3: Defenders of pink washing argue that it creates mainstream visibility

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Speaker 3: of the LGBTQ plus community, which is particularly important for

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Speaker 3: clastid people in more conservative areas. But considering these disparities,

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Speaker 3: we cannot allow corporations to become complacent with superficial allyship

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Speaker 3: that ultimately only benefits them. And they propose as a

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Speaker 3: solution to this issue. Quote, advocates argue the practice of

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Speaker 3: free distribution, redirecting wealth from those who don't need it

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Speaker 3: to those who do, and empowering organizations that support and

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Speaker 3: uplift the LGBTQ plus community directly. Additionally, and I feel

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Speaker 3: like this kind of is the real like nail the

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Speaker 3: coffin issue. Additionally, according to the article quote, numerous major

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Speaker 3: firms that have purportedly celebrated pride, including Home devote At

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Speaker 3: and T have donated roughly one million or more at

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Speaker 3: each two to LGBTQ plus politicians. So yeah, like you

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Speaker 3: want our money, but then you're going to support politicians

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Speaker 3: that are trying to eliminate us. So that doesn't really

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Speaker 3: seem like allyship to me. So something that I thought

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Speaker 3: was interesting too that this article pointed out. And again

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Speaker 3: this was written in twenty twenty two, so before everything

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Speaker 3: that went down last year, and kind of this rise

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Speaker 3: of a lot of backlash. One cause that a lot

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Speaker 3: of these companies do support, or a lot of companies

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Speaker 3: they said at the time, over twenty different organizations do

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Speaker 3: support is the Trevor Project, which does really great work.

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Speaker 3: It is a suicide prevention hotline, but they point out

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Speaker 3: the fact that quote their status is a queer centered

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Speaker 3: mental health organization renders them exactly the kind of organization

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Speaker 3: that businesses are happy to champion. Corporations love to showcase

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Speaker 3: that they are quote saving LGBTQ plus lives and the abstract,

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Speaker 3: but never translate that support into mutual aid and survival

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Speaker 3: efforts for LGBTQ plus communities, which are far more mistorative

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Speaker 3: and transp normative for real queer folks. So again, I

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Speaker 3: think this is another issue that we see. And this

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Speaker 3: is interesting because the Trevor Project was one of the

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Speaker 3: groups that has been targeted in the past year. It

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Speaker 3: has faced a lot of backlash from right wing forces

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Speaker 3: that are like trying to frame it as something it

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Speaker 3: is not.

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Speaker 1: And again, I love the Trevor Project. I've done some

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Speaker 1: great work.

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Speaker 3: But I think the point here is that sometimes it

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Speaker 3: is easier for these companies to support these sort of

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Speaker 3: very nice appearing like uncontroversial things such as like yeah,

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Speaker 3: suicide prevention, saving lives, but when it comes to things

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Speaker 3: there are more more material more like you know, making

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Speaker 3: sure that wealth is distributed in a way that is equal,

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Speaker 3: making sure people have housing and access to food and

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Speaker 3: all that. That is something that people are silent about,

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Speaker 3: that these corporations are silent about, and going to this

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Speaker 3: idea of sort of finding ways to quote support the

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ post community that feel very uh like respectable and

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Speaker 3: like nice upfront. This kind of brought me back to

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Speaker 3: something that I talked about in the last episode I

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Speaker 3: did with you guys that was about Bottoms and how

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Speaker 3: the director whose name I kept pronouncing wrong in the

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Speaker 3: episode I'm so sorry, the director talked about how it

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Speaker 3: was really hard to secure product placement for the movie

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Speaker 3: because of the sort of unrespectable tone that it takes,

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Speaker 3: and like, obviously, not providing product placement for a movie

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Speaker 3: is not as high stakes as like using the BLSABT

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Speaker 3: community as a marketing tactic and then not you know,

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Speaker 3: actually supporting that community or giving back in any concrete way,

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Speaker 3: or supporting homophobic politicians or whatever, like that's not as

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Speaker 3: big of a deal in.

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Speaker 1: The grand scheme of things.

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Speaker 3: But I think like the fact that even something as

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Speaker 3: small as like a movie, where it's like literally just

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Speaker 3: an advertising opportunity, like companies were turning that down shows

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Speaker 3: like the extent to how far they're really willing to

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Speaker 3: extend their.

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Speaker 1: Like outl ship.

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Speaker 3: Again, these past few years, we've seen some serious backlash

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Speaker 3: against the LGBTQ plus community, particularly against trans folks, and

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Speaker 3: this is manifested in a series of bills across the

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Speaker 3: country attacking things like genderfirming care, drag artists, the ability

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Speaker 3: to like talk about LGBTQ plus issues in schools, and

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Speaker 3: even attempting to criminalize the existence of like visibly gender

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Speaker 3: non conforming folks from public life. I found this article

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Speaker 3: from The Advocate the tide the rise of medical mistrust

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Speaker 3: around COVID to this rise of anti trans backlash, which

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Speaker 3: I think is kind of an interesting way of viewing it.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, this manifested again and a lot of far bright,

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Speaker 3: spearheaded boycotts of companies that appeared to associate themselves with

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Speaker 3: the LGBTQ plus community this past year. According to a

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Speaker 3: Dazed article from late June twenty twenty three, quote Last week,

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Speaker 3: it was reported that Starbucks, a brand that has typically

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Speaker 3: marketed itself as liberal and progressive, is instituting a nationwide

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Speaker 3: ban on pride, the immerging, and dice in its stores,

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Speaker 3: citing concerns about right wing backlash. In comparison to years past,

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Speaker 3: fewer companies have changed their logo to the rainbow flag.

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Speaker 3: We're influencers, are booking less work and pride events across

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Speaker 3: the US are struggling to secure sponsorship. There have been

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Speaker 3: notably less annoying viral videos. No private equity firms assuring

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Speaker 3: the US that beastligh the house down every day simply

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Speaker 3: by being our authentic selves. No fast food chains publishing

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Speaker 3: branded videos teaching us how to bottom.

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Speaker 1: That was a weird one. Did you do you guys

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Speaker 1: remember that?

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Speaker 3: Did you?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember if it was grubbub.

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Speaker 3: It was one of those delivery services that they did

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Speaker 3: like a bottom friendly like the bottoms.

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Speaker 2: That was Burger did the two el bunds, and then

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Speaker 2: I believe it was drub hub bottom friendly Men to bottoms, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the bottom friendly menu. My favorite is Skittles with their

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Speaker 2: all white skittles because they're like our rainbows can encompass

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Speaker 2: and like.

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Speaker 1: The rainbow as your tag. Lie. Yeah, so this kind.

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Speaker 3: Of backlash last year was contrasted with something we saw

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Speaker 3: through the twenty tens from the Days article again quote

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Speaker 3: after gay marriage began to enjoy broad popular support, LGBTQ

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Speaker 3: plus marketing was a safe bet, but the train has

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Speaker 3: shifted now that pride is viewed by a small but

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Speaker 3: vocal minority as synonymous with grooming, child abuse and satanism.

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Speaker 3: And again this articles pointed to the two kind of

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Speaker 3: big moments last year. In addition to this whole thing

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Speaker 3: with Starbucks, was the whole thing with bud Light dropping

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Speaker 3: Dila mulvaney and then Target pulling their Pride merchandise from

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Speaker 3: a number of stores.

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Speaker 1: I do want to say we haven't.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this, Joey, but Samantha

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Speaker 2: and I had to go on a book tour, a

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Speaker 2: book radio toway.

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Speaker 1: You did, really, I didn't hear about that at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this would be last year. It was awful

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Speaker 2: because we're anxious people. But anyway, it mostly went fine.

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Speaker 2: But there was a person who asked us about Dylan mulvaney,

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Speaker 2: a guy obviously, and it was like Oklahoma parading as

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Speaker 2: a woman. It offends me. I'm sure it offends you.

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Speaker 2: And Samantha's amazing and stepped in and was like no,

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Speaker 2: And I was over here scrambling because I'm like and

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Speaker 2: we had talked about her, like I knew, Like once

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Speaker 2: Samantha started talking, I was like, oh, but that was

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Speaker 2: his point, Like that was flash.

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Speaker 4: He didn't care anything about the book.

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Speaker 1: He gave note about the book or what it was.

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Speaker 4: And obviously I was having a whole chapter about trans

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Speaker 4: people and the antiology BTQYA movement and what's dangerous about

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Speaker 4: it and the one thing he was like, you know

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Speaker 4: and miss gendering heart the entire time. And I think

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Speaker 4: that's where I pissed off the post because I started

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Speaker 4: with I started my comments I with first of all,

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Speaker 4: it was by gender here and she's that she, so

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Speaker 4: that's what we're gonna refer her. Secondly, like I went

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Speaker 4: into pissy any move when like kids misbehave, and so

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Speaker 4: I have to go with you like, one, you don't

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Speaker 4: do this wasn't two, this is what the other than three?

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Speaker 1: Why would you like?

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Speaker 4: I just I blacked out to a little bit because

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, you're gonna curse him?

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Speaker 1: Out and it's it's like, what do you do in

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Speaker 1: that situation? That's insane? And you know interest on that point.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna get to this when we talk more about

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Speaker 3: like the political pink washing. But it's funny how, you know,

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Speaker 3: certain people that maybe do not care about women's rights

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Speaker 3: or about feminism or anything anything so concerned when trans

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Speaker 3: people are involved, or people that you know, maybe don't

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Speaker 3: care about LGBTQ plus rights in the US suddenly seem

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Speaker 3: very concerned about queer people when those queer people live

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Speaker 3: in you know, non white Christian communities. But yeah, god,

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Speaker 3: that's insane.

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Speaker 4: No, he definitely had that moment, and it was quite

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Speaker 4: funny because at the end of the interview he didn't

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Speaker 4: know what to do except for saying, well, do you

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Speaker 4: see you hear these passionate women here, passionate authors here

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Speaker 4: of stuff. Mom never told you should definitely uh check

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Speaker 4: out their book, and we ended.

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Speaker 1: Passion Okay, I'll go with that. I know that was

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Speaker 1: a really condescending term.

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Speaker 3: I got to.

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Speaker 1: I will never forget that one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one of my favorite tik talkers right now, there

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Speaker 3: was a TikTok of somebody that was like talking to

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Speaker 3: men the same way that like I talked to my

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Speaker 3: like preschoolers who somebody was like a preschool teacher, and

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Speaker 3: they were.

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Speaker 1: Like, no, no, no, no, no, we use our inside for

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Speaker 1: we use our words. Let's use our words like in

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Speaker 1: a very like calming foot.

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Speaker 3: And I was like that, that's so funny. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, I honestly like, what else are you supposed.

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Speaker 1: To do in that situation?

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Speaker 3: So yeah, again, this whole situation with Target and Starbucks

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Speaker 3: and bud Light and every other company that has to

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Speaker 3: bait and switch with their support for the LGBTQ plus

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Speaker 3: community this last year and continue to be silent this year,

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Speaker 3: which again this year, Target has pulled their Pride merge

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Speaker 3: from a number of stores. They're only selling it online

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Speaker 3: and quote in select stores. They're sighting it's a safety issue,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, they're also have been Like I it was

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Speaker 3: interesting when I was writing this because I remember one

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Speaker 3: of the things is every you know, every Pride month,

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Speaker 3: all of these corporations go on and they changed their

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Speaker 3: logo to a little rainbow with their logo and you

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Speaker 3: get like Lockheed Martin but gay for the.

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Speaker 1: Month of June. I am.

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Speaker 3: I get to see a company do that this year.

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Speaker 3: I'm I don't know if there's any out there. I

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Speaker 3: have not seen any on just.

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Speaker 1: I've seen duly.

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Speaker 4: According to according to the Mini Babulls on TikTok, they're

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Speaker 4: saying they lost two million followers because they did that,

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Speaker 4: and at one point they were unverified from TikTok. And

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Speaker 4: I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I have other issues, but.

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Speaker 4: I haven't heard this necessarily from them, but from like

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00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 4: people who follow Due Lingos, like why did they lose

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Speaker 4: so many people?

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Speaker 3: Weird?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't.

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Speaker 3: I haven't been paying attention as much. I will say

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Speaker 3: with Due Lingo, I love their tik talk.

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Speaker 1: It's fun. I think we shouldn't.

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Speaker 3: We also should not ignore the fact that they are

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Speaker 3: a corporation and they have done some weird They made

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Speaker 3: a like I remember back when, like they ember heard

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Speaker 3: Johnny Depp trial was they had like a weird joke

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Speaker 3: they made about that that I was like, Oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: du A Lingo, dou A Lingo is doing this, Like, okay,

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Speaker 3: that's weird anyway, cut.

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Speaker 4: It out from what I understand in the social media

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Speaker 4: coordinator a queer I think so community person like she talks.

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Speaker 4: I've seen her account because she blew up with like

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Speaker 4: all of her like sas bag about.

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Speaker 3: Doing that dueling, which again kidnapping parents.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you know, I have your parents in your

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Speaker 4: basement in my basement until you They.

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Speaker 1: Really like lash on the whole leg harassing.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm very confused about this tactic, but people

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00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 4: seem to really enjoy.

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Speaker 3: It, so you do you right, It's interesting, It's okay,

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00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 3: And again, like I think it is funny. I think

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00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 3: it is important to remember, uh, corporations or corporations and

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00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 3: marketing is marketing. But yeah, who knows that person that's

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00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: running their account because like they're doing a job anyways,

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00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 3: So yeah, kind of But going back to this whole thing,

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Speaker 3: I think what this really shows corporations are not motivated

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Speaker 3: by morals.

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Speaker 1: They're motivated by the market.

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Speaker 3: If we are relying on our marketability or our ability

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Speaker 3: to make money for capitalist entities, to earn our acceptance

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Speaker 3: or even just like base level tolerance safety all of that,

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00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,160
Speaker 3: like we're screwed if that's what we're relying on. There's

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Speaker 3: all these going to be situations like this where companies,

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Speaker 3: our companies are going to cave to they don't care

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Speaker 3: about you. They care about making money. If they think

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Speaker 3: that you're no longer profitable, they're not going to keep

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00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 3: supporting you. This is what we're seeing right now, and

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00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 3: I do think again, just to complicate this a little

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00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 3: bit and contradict myself, I do I do understand. I

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00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 3: do understand the argument that, like, hey, if you're a

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00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 3: kid living out in the country and like a small

405
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 3: town somewhere where like you don't have access to a

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Speaker 3: larger queer community. Maybe you're living in like a pretty

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00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: homophobic area or with homophobic parents or something, and like

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00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 3: you see a pride flag at Starbucks or like a

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Speaker 3: pride like section at Target, that can be important.

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Speaker 1: But I think.

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Speaker 3: As important that as that is, and it is important

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00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 3: that that less normalized. We're seeing the main stores that

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00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 3: Target and Starbucks and all these bigger corporations are pulling

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Speaker 3: their pride merge from. Are these stores that are in

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00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 3: more conservative areas and more right wing areas. The one

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00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 3: kind of benefit of it is like the first thing

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00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 3: to sort of crumble, you know. So I just I

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00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 3: do not think this is an effective way to seek liberation.

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00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: I don't know what the exact answer is. We do

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00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 3: still live in like a capitalist healthscape, you know, society.

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00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, this is it's just not it's not a

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00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 3: good situation. Corporations are first and foremost motivated by profit.

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00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: They do not care about your existence. They only care

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00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 3: if you're giving the money. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Right, And again just as a reminder, this is bare minimum.

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00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 4: We talk about like anybody giving an effort, and when

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00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 4: we get like, oh, it's a big corporation. They're taking

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00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 4: a stand, they put a rainbow on something to make money.

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00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 4: That is the bare minimum, right, Like in this level

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Speaker 4: of like we want to give compliments and shout outs

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00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 4: to people who actually do heroic things versus self serving,

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00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 4: minimal things that should have already been that s. This

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00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 4: shouldn't be a surprise, It shouldn't be new, It shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be one time a year. It should so that you

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00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 4: can get on a float. Like there's just it's just

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00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 4: an odd like level of like, yeah, but why are

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00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 4: we rewarding them again?

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00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: Exactly?

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00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: So now pivoting a little bit to talking about political pinkquashing.

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00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 1: So pinkquashing is a.

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00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 3: Tactic that's used by a variety of political parties and

442
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 3: individuals and governments. Kind of going to my hometown and

443
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 3: my low I don't lit there anymore, but i'm my

444
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: former local situation. I would argue the whole campaign of

445
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 3: former Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot was probably like a pretty

446
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: classic example of pinkwashing.

447
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: That was when she was campaigning and when she was elected,

448
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: it was.

449
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: Like a big deal that she was our first like

450
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 3: openly lesbian mayor, and that was great, except she did

451
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: a bunch of ad stuff then too that hurt a

452
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: lot of queer people and a lot of like you know,

453
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 3: queer people of color, like queer people that were like.

454
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: In impoverished areas. So yay.

455
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 3: Anyways, I use that example to say, like, this is

456
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: something that occurs in a lot of different places, in

457
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 3: a lot of different forms, but it's most commonly used

458
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: when we're talking about Israel. I want to upfront, I

459
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 3: just want to make it clear the Israeli government is

460
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: currently enacting in genocide. Like I'm going into it with

461
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 3: that as like the baseline knowledge of what's happening right now,

462
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: Like I'm not going to spend some time trying to

463
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: argue the fact that that is happening. The most recent

464
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 3: deathold I could find was from about a month ago

465
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: and it was thirty four nine hundred Pausan means and

466
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: occupied territories that have been killed. That number is undoubtedly low.

467
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, again, a number of genocide scholars, many of

468
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: whom are Jewish. That should not matter, but many of

469
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 3: whom are Jewish, have been calling this a genocide. I'm

470
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 3: going with the base assumption that everybody listening knows this

471
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: is a genocide. So about a month ago here in

472
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: New York, where I live now, Act Up held a

473
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 3: protest outside of the GLAD Media Awards, criticizing its silence

474
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 3: regarding Gaza, as well as the organization's partnership with the

475
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 3: Anti Defamation League or ADL, an organization which purports to

476
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 3: track hate crimes in the US. But those numbers are

477
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 3: very skewed because they like to include things like peaceful

478
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 3: student protesters, and for a while they laid the whole

479
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 3: Black Lives Matter is a hate organization, a lot of

480
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 3: weird stuff that's not necessarily.

481
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: Violent or hateful.

482
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have a very skewed definition of what constitutes

483
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: an anti Semitic hate crime.

484
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: So at this protest, drag.

485
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: Artist Chikakita and ded Opulence also staged a protest inside

486
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: the awards ceremony and were escorted out by Glad I'm

487
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: blinking on her name, but there was a pretty big

488
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: drag queen who I know has been on like Rupaul'

489
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: drag race and stuff, who had won a big award

490
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: at this event, and she like later came out and

491
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: was like, I had no idea like this protest was happening.

492
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 3: If I had, I definitely would have would not have

493
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 3: gone to this, and like I'd support the protesters all that,

494
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 3: so like.

495
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: We love it.

496
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: I think this was a really pivotal moment, this protest

497
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: for the conversation around like what we're expecting from queer

498
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 3: actives organizations and what solidarity means, and like why it's important.

499
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: It was a pretty big protest. Act UP is an

500
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: incredibly important organization. I would argue they have done some of,

501
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 3: if not the most important work to save queer lives.

502
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 3: If you don't know, act UP was kind of the

503
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: biggest organization to come out of organizing during the AIDS crisis,

504
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 3: and they staged a lot of really effective protests and

505
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 3: die ins and stuff to get attention on the AIDS

506
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 3: crisis and medical research towards the AIDS crisis, and you

507
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: know they they're very cool and very.

508
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: Important and have done some really important work.

509
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 3: An article from them that covered the event stated in

510
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 3: a statement included in act up's original press release, Nor,

511
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 3: a queer Palestinian Syrian artist writer, said that quote, it

512
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: goes without question to me that there's no such thing

513
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: as queer liberation without the liberation of Palestine. We fight

514
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: for Palestine in honor of our queer history and ancestors,

515
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 3: for those queer Palestinian siblings of ours living in Palestine,

516
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: and for all those generations to come. Nor said this

517
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 3: violent unjust oppression, apartheid, bombs, weapons, mass destruction, disabling, and

518
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 3: displacement of indigenous humans does.

519
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: Not discriminate, un quote.

520
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: And so I want to start by talking about this

521
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 3: moment because I think this really shows the shift in

522
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 3: the effectiveness of political pinkwashing, much like how a year

523
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: ago we kind of saw the shift in the effectiveness

524
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: of corporate pinkwashing, and I think that's a good thing.

525
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: So when talking about pinkwashing, there is this really fantastic

526
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: article that I will link in the show notes by playwright,

527
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: activist writer Sarah Schulman that was in the New York Times.

528
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: It was from twenty eleven, there was an opinions piece

529
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: about pinkwashing, and this piece from twenty eleven is credited

530
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: with being one of the things that brought the term

531
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: pinkwashing into the mainstream when talking about Israel. So she

532
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 3: was not the first person to coin this term, but again,

533
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 3: like she's credited with kind of bringing it into being

534
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: one of the people that brought into the American in mainstream.

535
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: So in her article, Shulman says that pinkwashing is quote

536
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 3: a deliberate strategy to conceal the continuing violations of Palestinian

537
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: human rights behind an image of modernity signified by Israeli

538
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: gay life unquote. She then goes on to quote, guys,

539
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: I did not pay attention to Hebrew school. I'm so

540
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: sorry for how I'm about to say all these names

541
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 3: a yell. Gross I got that one who's a professor

542
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: of law at Tel Aviv University who says, quote, gay

543
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: rights have essentially become a public relations tool, even though

544
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: quote conservative and especially religious politicians remain fiercely homophobic.

545
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: If you live in the US, that might sound familiar.

546
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: So she points out that this is not something unique

547
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: to Israel and that it is quote the co opting

548
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: of white gay people by anti immigrant and anti Muslim

549
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: political forces is present in Western Europe as well. Again,

550
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: I would argue to some extent that I was also

551
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: kind of made its way into American discourse.

552
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: She writes that quote.

553
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: The Guardian reported last year so in twenty ten that

554
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: the racist English Defense League had one hundred and fifteen

555
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: members in its gay wing. The Durban Lebanese and Gay

556
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: Federation has issued statements citing Muslim immigrants as enemies of

557
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: gay people. She talks about how Muslim immigrants are oftentimes

558
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: depicted as being quote homophobic fanatics, while they also quote

559
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: opportunistically ignored the existence of Muslim gays and their allies

560
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: within their communities and quote render invisible the role that

561
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: fundamentalists Christians, the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Jews play

562
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: and perpetuating fear and even hatred of gays. Going back

563
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: to that manual we're talking about, I mean, it's the

564
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: same thing where it's these super right wing homophobic I'm

565
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 3: gonna use my religion to just find my homophobia people

566
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: are all of a sudden like concerned about homophobian Islam. Anyways,

567
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: and again if this sounds familiar, If that statement sounds

568
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 3: reallier and you live in the US, that is because

569
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: on May tenth this year, the FBI released a statement

570
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 3: warning of quote, foreign terrorist organizations or supporters may seek

571
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: to exploit increased gatherings associated with the upcoming June twenty

572
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: four Pride Month, which.

573
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: Again, given what I was just talking about.

574
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: And the increase of attacks on LGBTQ plus people, including

575
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 3: children that have gotten violent in a lot of cases,

576
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: most of these attacks being done by white Christian Americans,

577
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: this seems like a weird statement to be releasing, just

578
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: my opinion, and really quick, before we talk about Israel,

579
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about this uncomfortable

580
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 3: history that we do have to unpack. I think especial

581
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: as like white gay people, about how this kind of

582
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: line of thought of like using white gay people for

583
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 3: anti immigrant rhetoric or anti Muslim rhetoric or whatever racist

584
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: rhetoric has been used kind of in the past, because

585
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: this isn't necessarily a new thing. It's ultimately rooted in

586
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: this idea that like you can be gay and still

587
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: be inclaritably racist and misogynistic, and you know, have all

588
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: these very right wing xenophobic neocolonialists ideas like being gay

589
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: does not necessarily extempt you from feeling that way or

590
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 3: from acting that way, and we can't necessarily measure the

591
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: overall state of progress and like acceptance within a society

592
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 3: just based on whether or not LGBTQ plus people are

593
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: accepted within that society. The same way like you could

594
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: have a country that you know women have full equal

595
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: rights under the law, and that country can still be

596
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: incredibly racist or incredibly homophobic, or incredibly misogynistic, for militaristic

597
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: or whatever, or be doing these awful things. I think

598
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: like the way that this narrative about queer history has

599
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: kind of been crafted in the past, it's really relied

600
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: on this idea that gay acceptance, like acceptance of gay people,

601
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: acceptance of queer people, equals like a war progressive society

602
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: or like a more progressive community, and that's all good

603
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: and everything's great. That's not necessarily the case, and I

604
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: think falling into that kind of mentality can make it

605
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: easy to like ignore actual real life racism or bad

606
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: military campaigns and stuff like that that is happening under

607
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: that guys. If anybody's interested on this topic, I do

608
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: want to shout out the podcast Bad Days.

609
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with them. They also have a book that

610
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: came out.

611
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 3: The book really goes more into this idea I think

612
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: of like the theory behind how we talk about queer history.

613
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: But that is a show that really focuses on deconstructing

614
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: these narratives about queer history and looking at some of

615
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: the like less savory aspects of queer history and some

616
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: of there's a lot of interesting episodes or like chapters

617
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: of the book that are about like queer fascists or

618
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: like you know, I think is a notable historical example

619
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 3: is like the early Nazi Party had a lot of

620
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: gay men that were involved. There was this masculinist gay

621
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: movement that was happening around the same time that like

622
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: the Nazi Party was being formed in Germany, and like.

623
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Early on, there was a lot of overlap.

624
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 3: You can't necessarily assume that because somebody is gay, or

625
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: because somebody is queer, and because it is something that

626
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: they are, you know, it's not a like self hating thing,

627
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: like they're open about it whatever that necessarily mean. You

628
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: can't say that necessarily makes them a progressive person. They

629
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: also just did an episode this was I'm braving about

630
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 3: the show. It's a really good show, but they did

631
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: an episode like theirs. Last episode I think they did

632
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: was about this British woman who was most likely a

633
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: lesbian at least, dressed very butch and like appeared very butch,

634
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: and appeared to like have open, like out in the open,

635
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: not like open in the we'ordating other people's sense, but

636
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: like out in the open relationships with women. It appeared

637
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: to be who also was the founder of the British

638
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 3: Fascist Party. So again, gay people can suck too. I'm

639
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: holding myself back to making a joke there. So I

640
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: think it's really important to study this history. And it

641
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 3: brings up another term that this is a little bit

642
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: more complicated, because this really is just more of like

643
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: an academic term, but it ties into pinkwashing, and that

644
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: is homo nationalism, which was coined by Jasper Poir in

645
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: her book Terrorist Assemblages, Homo Nationalism and Queer Times, which

646
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 3: seemed dake a really interesting, fascinating book that I really

647
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: want to read, but Jay Store would not let me

648
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: read it because it said I didn't have access through

649
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: my account. So this is Jay Store's fault that I

650
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: don't have more quotes than her anyways. But this is

651
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: also something that Sarah Schulman kind of expanded upon in

652
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: her work and in her book that she wrote called Israel, Palestine,

653
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: and the Queer International. She said, through marriage, parenthood, and family,

654
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: lgb's and some teas become accepted and re aligned with

655
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 3: patriotic or nationalist ideologies to their country. Instead of being

656
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 3: feared as the threat to family and nation that they

657
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: were once seen to be. This new integration under the

658
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: most normative of terms is held up as a symbol

659
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: of that country's commitment to progress and modernity. They construct

660
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 3: the other as Muslims of Arab, South Asian, Turkish or

661
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: African origin as quote homophobic and fanatically heterosexual. And going

662
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 3: back to Israel and how this kind of manifest and Israel.

663
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: So in that article, in that otbed that she wrote

664
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: for The New York Times, Shulmann talks about the quote

665
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 3: Brand Israel campaign which the Israeli government spearheaded in two

666
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: thousand and five, aided by American marketing executives, which quote

667
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: sought to depict Israel as relevant and modern. She then

668
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: goes to talk about how in twenty ten quote the

669
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: Israel news site, Wynett reported that the Tel Aviv Tourism

670
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: Board had begun a campaign of around ninety million dollars

671
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: to brand the city as an international gay vacation destination.

672
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: Which as a queer Jewish American, this is not surprising.

673
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: To be in the slightest. I don't have time.

674
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: To get too much into the weird culture around Birthright,

675
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: but if you don't know, Birthright is this organization that

676
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: basically pays for you to have a free trip to

677
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 3: Israel if you're Jewish. I think now originally was like

678
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 3: you had to have one Jewish parent. I think that

679
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: was like one Jewish grandparent. I'm not a one hundred

680
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: percent sure, but if you have Jewish ancestry and it's

681
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: run by a big right wing group, it's this big

682
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: propaganda thing. Like it's very obviously a big propaganda thing,

683
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: but it's also something like in a weird, awful, dystopian way,

684
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 3: this is something that was just like normalized growing up,

685
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 3: Like I was like, Okay, you got a free trip

686
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: to Israel from birth Right. You're gonna do that when

687
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 3: you are a young adult, and it's gonna be so fun.

688
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: If anybody who's ever seen the Broad City episode where

689
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 3: they're making fun of birth Right, The whole episode is

690
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: making fun of the fact they're on like the plane

691
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 3: going to Israel, and it's making fun of the fact

692
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: that like a big part of the trip is they're

693
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: trying to get people to move to Israel and make

694
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: more Israeli babies and so like the whole bit of

695
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 3: the episode is that the guy who's running it is

696
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: like trying to get them all to hook up.

697
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: Which is it like that far off did you take

698
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: this trip? I did not, So I want to get

699
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: to that I did not go on birth Right.

700
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: I had the realization that it was weird and I

701
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 3: didn't want to do it before before I was of

702
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 3: age to do it. However, growing up, like in growing

703
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 3: up Jewish and in Jewish communities, like it's something you

704
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 3: hear about and it is something like you know how

705
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: there's the marketing of it, and then there's sort of

706
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 3: the like inter personal marketing and a big thing like

707
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 3: I like you always hear from like your older cousins

708
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: or like older friends that.

709
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: Went on it, but are like a big thing is

710
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: they kind of let you.

711
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: Go like clubbing and you get to meet all these

712
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 5: like hot Idf soldiers and it's like very much appealing

713
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 5: to that aspect of it anywhere.

714
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 4: Appealing to the youths as any would say. Oh, I

715
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 4: will say, I I know about Birthright. I did not

716
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: know as an organization. I really it was an actual tradition. No,

717
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: that has been like I know nothing, And I was like,

718
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 4: oh no, that was that sounds cool. But that's how

719
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 4: little like as outside of this culture as I am,

720
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: I knew of it, and so I did not understand. Yeah,

721
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 4: politically it linked interesting.

722
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: It gets complicated because it's like it's obviously like it's.

723
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: Kind of pulling from so in Islam, like a lot

724
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: of people will do the Hajj and that's part of

725
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: their religion. This is where it's complicated, and like I

726
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: don't really have time to go into this. Like there

727
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 3: is a lot of spiritual kind of attap like in

728
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 3: what is now Israel, Like there is a lot of

729
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: like spiritual places and stuff like that. I think, like

730
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 3: there is that history. There's no like history of people

731
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 3: going to Israel, like when they reach certain age to

732
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: like to see it and like like that is definitely

733
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 3: something this was started in nineteen ninety nine, like it

734
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: is a fairly new organization.

735
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, I didn't need this all my life.

736
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 4: That's an interesting.

737
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I grew up like this was so normalized,

738
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: Like this was like everybody when I was always like, oh, well,

739
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: it's a free trip. Even people that I knew that

740
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: were like not super Zionists were sort of like, yeah,

741
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 3: well it's a free trip, so you're gonna go. Right.

742
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 4: That's that's how I understood it essentially. But maybe because

743
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 4: I didn't learn about until I was in college in

744
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, I would have been in college in

745
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 4: the next year. Yes, I'm old, however, but like that,

746
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 4: to me, it just made sense. And maybe that's why

747
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 4: I know knew of it is because it was so

748
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 4: new ish to that level. I don't know, but I'm like, oh,

749
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 4: I just assumed that I always said things existed.

750
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of things about Zionism you get

751
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: to learn are not actually is rooted in my histories

752
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: you think they are. But anyways, so I bring up

753
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: this and this sexuality kind of like on the DL

754
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: my cousin told me marketing around birth right. I'm not

755
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 3: gonna say marketing, but I think like kind of you know,

756
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 3: culture round birth Right. I bring this up because they

757
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 3: do some trips that are specifically based around certain identities,

758
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: And in twenty thirteen they started doing Pride Birthright trips

759
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 3: for LGBTQ plus people, which I first heard about in

760
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 3: kind of the same context I was talking about, where

761
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: like I had a friend, and a friend is a

762
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: strong word. Anyways, I knew somebody in high school that

763
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: was talking to me about birth Right and they were

764
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: really excited about and they're all.

765
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: Going out about like, oh my god, I're gonna like go.

766
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: Clubbing and hook up with like hot idea of soldiers

767
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 3: and all that, and I.

768
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: Was kind of like, I don't know. I was at

769
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: the phase of my.

770
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: Life where I was like I don't know what I am.

771
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: I know I like girls, but like I don't really

772
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: And I was sort of like I don't know if

773
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 3: that's for me. And she was like no, no, no, no, no,

774
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: there's a gay one.

775
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: You can go on. There's a gay one. So that's

776
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: very open. Yeah.

777
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: Again, like I'm saying this whole kind of line of

778
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 3: thinking that like there has been this big marketing push

779
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 3: to portray Israel and Tel Aviv specifically is like this

780
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 3: very gay friendly place.

781
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: That's not surprising to me. That is kind of the

782
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: narrative that I grew up in.

783
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 3: And this tactic of framing Israel as being super gay friendly. Again,

784
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: it's contrasted with the image of Palesenians as being ultra

785
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 3: conservative and super homophobic and misogynistic. So going back to

786
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 3: this framework of homo nationalism, which you know, we're also

787
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: seeing happen in Europe with these conservative groups pointing to

788
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 3: predominantly Muslim immigrants and being like, see, they hate gay people,

789
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: we must be racist to them. A similar thing is

790
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 3: similar thing happened in America post Side eleven, you know,

791
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: which is interesting because that was like maybe one of

792
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: the most conservative moments in American history. But you know,

793
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: a lot of politicians that didn't seem to care much

794
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: about women having rights in the US all of a

795
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: sudden seemed very concerned about women under the Taliban. But yeah,

796
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 3: so this is kind of a similar situation what's happening

797
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: in Israel. YouTuber and activist Matt Bernstein made a really

798
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: fantastic video about pinquashing in November twenty twenty three, which

799
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: all link in the show notes.

800
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: Again, definitely recommend watching it.

801
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 3: He does like a really fantastic interview with a queer

802
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: pals on Theian Activist. But there's one thing in the

803
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: video he said that stuck out to me, and it's

804
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: that over the last month, I've had so many people

805
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 3: from my personal life, people who I grew up with,

806
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: people who have never once reached out to me to

807
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: express concern about the state of queer rights and the

808
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 3: free fall trans rights in this country over the last

809
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: two years, have been reaching out to me to remind

810
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 3: me that, hey, you know, you would be murdered if

811
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: you went to Gaza as a gay person.

812
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: And it's just.

813
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: Weird because I live in the US, and here in

814
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 3: the US there's over five hundred anti LGBTQ plus bills

815
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: which have been introduced in legislature since the start of

816
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 3: this year. You have trans people in Florida who are

817
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: starting Kickstarter campaigns they can flee their home state because

818
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 3: it's not safe to be trans there anymore. The Republican

819
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: Party has made the hatred for queer people and the

820
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 3: complation of queer people with pedophalia. I have no desire

821
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 3: to compare the state of queer rights here versus those

822
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 3: in Palestine or frankly anywhere else. This is not the

823
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: oppression Olympics. And I, for one am extremely aware of

824
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 3: my privilege living in a place like New York as

825
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: a queer person. But it does make me wonder, right, like,

826
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 3: are these people are reaching out to me to remind

827
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: me that I would for sure be murdered if I

828
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 3: went to Gaza as a gay person. Are they really

829
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: concerned about the hypothetical safety of me if I were

830
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: to take a trip to Gaza. Are they really concerned

831
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 3: more importantly about the safety of actual queer Palestinians that

832
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: do live in Gaza?

833
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 1: Or is this.

834
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: Homophobia being wielded as a tool as a crutch in

835
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 3: their argument for why I should feel okay with the

836
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from a land they once called home.

837
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 3: And this video was made in this past November when

838
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: photo went viral of a IDF soldier holding a Pride

839
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: flag in Gaza, and the caption was something like.

840
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: First Pride Parade in Gaza, which.

841
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 3: Zionist media personalities love to be like use it as

842
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: kind of a gotcha moment where they were like, see,

843
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 3: like they don't like we like gay people, they don't.

844
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: But like you know, a lot of other queer folks

845
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: on the internet were quick to point out, You're standing

846
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: in a bunch of rubble of this place you just bombed,

847
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: Like they're not gonna have a pride parade because you

848
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 3: just bombed them.

849
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: Like what. It is such a weird line of thinking.

850
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 3: So, going back to Shulman's piece in The New York Times,

851
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 3: she says, quote, pinkwashing not only manipulates the hard one

852
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: gains of Israel's gay community, but it also ignores the

853
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 3: existence of Palestinian gay rights organizations. She then talks about

854
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: three Palestunion LGBTQ plus organizations US what al Quas and

855
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: Palsenion Queers for Boycott Divestments didictions Again, I'm so sorry

856
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: if I said any of those wrong.

857
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure I did.

858
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 6: So.

859
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: In an article about pinkwashing, the Al.

860
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: Qua's website says, quote, the open inclusion of gay officers

861
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 3: in the Israeli occupation army is used as proof of

862
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: liberal forward minds, But for Palestine, the sexuality of the

863
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: soldier at a checkpoint makes a little difference. They all

864
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 3: field the same guns, where the same boots and maintain

865
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 3: the same colonial regime, which yeah, I think really gets

866
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: to the point. It's fine, Like, it's great if you

867
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 3: let gay people serve in your military, But if what they're.

868
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: Doing is upholding a violent.

869
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 3: Occupation, that's not exactly liberatory politics in my book at least.

870
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 3: So this article states that quote, Israeli cedral colonialism works

871
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: by breaking apart and eliminating Palestinian communities, whether through a

872
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: military violence of occupation and siege, the legal regimes of apartheid,

873
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 3: or the denial of refugees right to return. Yet it

874
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 3: also divides Palestinians internally and psychologically in the personal realms

875
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: of self perception and collective identification. The article goes on

876
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: to say that only portraying queer Palestinians is just like

877
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 3: helpless victim with no agency. By doing this, israel Quote

878
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 3: suggests that Palestinian society from pathological homophobia and that noe

879
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: assenting voices could ever survive for.

880
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: Long within it.

881
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: But quote, the fantasy of Israeli humanitarianism falls apart as

882
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 3: soon as the colonial situation is taken into account. There's

883
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: no pink door in the apartheid wall, and so let's

884
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 3: use that to pivot to how Israel actually treats it's

885
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 3: lgbt Q plus citizens and how it treats LGBTQ plus Palestinians,

886
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: these sort of hopeless victims.

887
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: It suddenly seems interested in saving.

888
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 3: Disclaimer up top, much like what Matt Bernstein said in

889
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: his video, I am not interested in playing a profession Olympics.

890
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 3: I don't think it's productive to have conversations about LGBTQ

891
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 3: plus rights or the rights of any marginalized groups that matter,

892
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 3: and have it revolved around like, well, this is the

893
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 3: worst situation you can be in.

894
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: So if you're in anything better, or you can't complain

895
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: or you can't.

896
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: Whatever like that, that is a way to heed progress

897
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 3: like that is a tactic literally to stop us from

898
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: reaching the potential that we can reach. When I talk

899
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 3: about queer liberation, it's with the future focus. It is

900
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: how can we improve the society that we are living in.

901
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: So I'm not going to do this as like a

902
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm acknowledging that, yes, there are certain

903
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: communities that you can grow up in. It is much

904
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 3: much much more difficult and unsafe to be queer. But

905
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean we should ignore real valid homophobia and

906
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 3: transphobia and slightly safer places so like, and again, if

907
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: you're from the US, you should probably understand this, Like,

908
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: just because a country has some rights for gay people,

909
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: where gay people are allowed in the military or in

910
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: the US, we're allowed to get married and Israel that's

911
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: not the case, but you know, you're allowed to exist

912
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 3: in public whatever. That doesn't necessarily mean that the politicians

913
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 3: in power are not violently homophobic, and it doesn't mean

914
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: that the culture as a whole is not homophobic. And

915
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 3: then also having these enclaves like in Tel Aviv or

916
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 3: like in New York doesn't necessarily mean that there are

917
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 3: not parts of the country that are also still deeply

918
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 3: deeply homophobic. And much like when we talk about these

919
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 3: American corporations that are using cry to appear progressive while

920
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 3: giving money to anti LGBTQ plus politicians, the Israeli government

921
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: loves this kind of to market Israel as a gay

922
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 3: safe haven. Will also like saying some of the most

923
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 3: violently homohobic.

924
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: And transphobic things.

925
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 3: So in twenty twenty two, Israeli Prime Minister Ntnyahuo signed

926
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 3: a deal with the Noam Party. Again, I was really

927
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 3: bad at Hebrew School, which is a far right, anti

928
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus Islamophobic group, which would make Avi MOA's deputy minister,

929
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: and he would run Jewish Identity Authority, which is really weird.

930
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 3: And I do not have time to unpack that that

931
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 3: this is a man who would not consider me Jewish

932
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 3: because my mom is not Jewish, and it has made

933
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: efforts to try to limit immigration from certain groups that

934
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 3: he doesn't deem Jewish enough for Israel. According to the

935
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: BBC quote, mister Moads has described lgbt people as a

936
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: threat to the family and has said he wants to

937
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 3: cancel Gabe Pride parades. His party ran a poster campaign

938
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen with the words quote Israel chooses to

939
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 3: be normal. He has also said a woman's greatest contribution

940
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 3: is in marriage and raising a family. The current Finance

941
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 3: Minister of Israel and the National Security Minister are also

942
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 3: kind of the same mindset. The two of them were

943
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 3: responsible for organizing an anti LGBTQ plus protest in Jerusalem

944
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 3: during the Jerusalem Pride Parade in two thousand and six

945
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: that was called the Beast Parade, which should give some

946
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 3: hints into how weird and vile some of the propaganda

947
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 3: around it was. Again, they shouldn't be surprising. Israel has

948
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 3: a bar Rak government right now. They do not care

949
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 3: about queer Palstinians, and they do not care about their

950
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: own queer population.

951
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: They don't care about Queersorelis either.

952
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: So it feels, I would say, hypocritical to be screaming

953
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: about gay people should support Israel because if you went

954
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: to Gaza you would be k killed. Palestinians are homophobic,

955
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, when Israel is also run by

956
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 3: a bunch of homophobes right now, And going back to

957
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: how the Israeli military actually treats queer Palestinians again, these

958
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 3: like hopeless victims. In twenty fourteen, a group of whistleblowers

959
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 3: that were Israeli intelligence veterans revealed that their unit would

960
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 3: intentionally seek out LGBTQ plus Palestinians to use their sexuality

961
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: as blackmail so that they become spy.

962
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: So and it seems like.

963
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 3: This has been a practice that is continued, like this

964
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 3: is something that comes up a lot I think during

965
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: conversations behind quashing and Israel's pinkwashing, like blackmailing people with

966
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 3: their sexuality so that they spy for you. That's not

967
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: necessarily being pro LGBTQ, at least in my book.

968
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: I don't know.

969
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 3: And so Okay, if there's one sort of positive note

970
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: that I do want to leave on, it is that

971
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 3: I think the good news is and I opened with

972
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 3: that story talking about the act UP protests with the

973
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 3: GLAD Awards, I think the conversation is changing and we're

974
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 3: seeing that pinkwashing is not working the same way it

975
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 3: used to. And even though certain mainstream institutions like the

976
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 3: Human Rights Campaign and GLAD are still silent on the

977
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 3: ongoing genocide and working with groups that are actively supporting

978
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: this genocide, a lot of prominent individual activists as well

979
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 3: as more grassroots ground up organizations like act UP had

980
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 3: been very vocally supportive of Palestine and supportive of a

981
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 3: ceasefire and have fought back against these pink washing efforts.

982
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: There was again, there was that purchase in.

983
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 3: New York an article from them wrote about how LGBTQ

984
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 3: plus groups have also organized protests that have Black Pride

985
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 3: parades in Boston, DC, and Philadelphia. So far, according to them,

986
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: quote in New York City, Queen's Pride has significantly fewer

987
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 3: groups merching due to boycotts and solidarity with Palestadians, as

988
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 3: local outlet Hellgate reported. As Hellgate reported, the Pride parade sponsor,

989
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 3: Long Island based nonprofit lgbt Network Quote rallied LGBTQ.

990
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: Support groups and support of Israel.

991
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: The outlet also noted lgbt Network president David Kilmannick had

992
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 3: chastised LGBTQ organizations for not supporting Israel in a New

993
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 3: York Daily News op ed. And this is what I

994
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 3: heard about again. Like I live in New York, I've

995
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: seen a lot of stuff going on about people calling

996
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 3: for a boycott of Queen's Pride. In my life, I

997
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 3: go to a lot more like local, smaller Pride events,

998
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 3: and there have already been some instances of groups pulling

999
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: out of certain venues that have hosted, like Eurovision doing

1000
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 3: part despite calls for a boycott, and like other things

1001
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 3: where they have kind of either not been open to

1002
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 3: talking to activists or just like have completely ignored them

1003
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 3: or whatever.

1004
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: So I think like at least from.

1005
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: A community B level, things are changing and that gives

1006
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 3: me hope.

1007
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: And I think this just goes to show like how much.

1008
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 3: Social media has like changed the game, you know, and

1009
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 3: just how far pinguashing can actually go. I think it's

1010
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 3: very similar to what's happening to a lot of like

1011
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: my young Jewish American peers that are starting to question

1012
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 3: Zionism and question like the actions of the Israeli government.

1013
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 3: There's some images that you see in some things that

1014
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: you just you can't justify, and if you find a

1015
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 3: way to justify it, like we've been seeing some of

1016
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 3: the worst images, like I, at least for me, I've

1017
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: been seeing some of the worst images I've ever seen

1018
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 3: in my life, like over the past couple months or

1019
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 3: past like ten months at this point, I think, and

1020
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 3: that's hard to ignore.

1021
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: That is hard to.

1022
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 3: Just ask people to ignore and justify. And frankly, at

1023
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 3: this point, if you are still trying to ignore and

1024
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 3: justify it, I am concerned for you and your moral

1025
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 3: well being. But yeah, ultimately my takeaway here is the

1026
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 3: center of this is that one group's safety does not

1027
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 3: require the subjugation and annihilation of another group. And if

1028
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 3: anyone tells you otherwise, they're probably trying to get you

1029
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: to turn a blind eye to some really awful things.

1030
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: So don't trust them. I mean, yep, that comes up

1031
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: a lot. And this show is when people like to

1032
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: use groups as tokens for things they really don't cure.

1033
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: So true, And this isn't even getting into the whole

1034
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 3: like bigger conversation about how.

1035
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: The military, like the US military and like the cops have.

1036
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 3: Really tried to use pride or being like, look at

1037
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 3: all of our gay officers and soldiers to be like,

1038
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 3: also ignore all the messed up stuff we're doing.

1039
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I.

1040
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 2: Will say, Joey, I've told this story a couple of times,

1041
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: but it was so revealing to me. My mom's church

1042
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: is going through a lot of stuff, but a lot

1043
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: of it is based on trans writes. Mmm, and it's

1044
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: actually a pretty liberal church. But they're like going through

1045
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 2: this stuff and my mom was like, well, this gay

1046
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: guy was against it.

1047
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: I was like.

1048
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: That that does not mean that he just because he's

1049
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: gay does not mean that he is right or that

1050
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: he is not have does not have many biases.

1051
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 3: Right right, Look, we're I mean, we're at a point

1052
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: being queer is like a weird identity to have because

1053
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 3: it is something that I think, unlike a lot of

1054
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 3: sort of marginalized identities. Anybody can be queer, like you

1055
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 3: can come from any economic background, any like racial, ethnic

1056
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 3: back round. Like everybody has their own set of biases

1057
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 3: that they go in with, and being queer sometimes leads

1058
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 3: people to re examine those structures and re examine their

1059
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 3: role in them. And sometimes again going back to that podcast,

1060
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 3: Bad Gays wholly recommend people listening to it. Sometimes people

1061
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 3: just hold on to that power and that status that

1062
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 3: they have and want to also be you know, accepted

1063
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: as this is all homo nationalism.

1064
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: This is where it comes from, this idea of like.

1065
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a normal white gay that wants to get

1066
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 3: married and have kids in my suburban white picket fence

1067
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 3: household with our two point five kids and our dog.

1068
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 3: And I also don't like the immigrants that are coming

1069
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 3: in and all of this awful this strand.

1070
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: Like, great, you're still a bigot. Then you're just a gay, right.

1071
00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 4: And it's the same way when we see immigration issues

1072
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 4: in like anti immigrant people who as anti immigrants, but

1073
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 4: they're literally immigrants themselves. We have a lot of like

1074
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 4: Latin community, especially men like Machismo men who really launched

1075
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 4: on the Trump and that was a whole conversation I

1076
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 4: still do, and they're like, you know, my parents did

1077
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 4: it right until they get arrested and then deported because

1078
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 4: of a mistake or whatnot. Like I've seen that so

1079
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 4: many times. Florida and itself really had like one of

1080
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 4: those around and find outs with many of those Latino

1081
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 4: voters being like, that's right, we love the Santas and

1082
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 4: Trump because they're standing up for what's good. And then

1083
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, we can't get jobs. Oh they're trying

1084
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 4: to kick us out of here. Oh they're just pulling

1085
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: us over just because we're brown, even though I want

1086
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 4: to tell them I voted for your people.

1087
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: Trump.

1088
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 4: And I see that also with the Asian community. I've

1089
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 4: seen many Asian men come on and being like, yeah,

1090
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 4: we're definitely pro Republican because b blah blah blah, we

1091
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 4: did this right, all these things. I'm like, no, you're

1092
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 4: taking on the model minority myth and making it really

1093
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 4: harder for most non people people of color in general.

1094
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 4: And I'm meaning that as in, like not the black community,

1095
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 4: but for those who are of us, all of us

1096
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 4: who are in the brown and tan community.

1097
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: But like you kind of.

1098
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 4: Sit there like what are you thinking this is not

1099
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 4: this is not necessarily beneficial for you, but you really

1100
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 4: want to stand on the socialized aim that this is

1101
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 4: the hierarchy. So at least if you can be allies

1102
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 4: with them, and you could be like ushered in with them,

1103
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 4: that you'll be safe in actuality.

1104
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: That's not the truth, but.

1105
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,479
Speaker 4: We have a lot of bad players that feed into

1106
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 4: that and try to use that as leverage as well.

1107
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 4: They kind of stand on there and be like, this

1108
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 4: is gonna give me some notoriety. This controversy in itself

1109
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 4: is gonna give it. Like Candice Owens is like probably

1110
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 4: a big giant.

1111
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: Example of that.

1112
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 4: I'm not I don't know her name. I'm not I

1113
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 4: don't even know like who she is, but miss McConnell's wife,

1114
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 4: who is an Asian woman, and everybody wants to point

1115
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 4: that out about oh see, he's not racist, and I'm like,

1116
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 4: uh uh uh uh. She's a token who is absolutely

1117
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 4: being used and has been used to play this game,

1118
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 4: and she's doing this for her benefit. Nobody else is like,

1119
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 4: and she's like, no matter, I don't even know who

1120
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 4: she is. I've never heard her spoke, but she's okay

1121
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 4: with being touted as that, so we know that, like

1122
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 4: that's kind of that level of like this is for her,

1123
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 4: that they're fine as long as it's that one, like

1124
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 4: she gets what she wants, she doesn't care about anybody else.

1125
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 4: And that's that token level of like people really want

1126
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 4: to be that player so that at least they're okay

1127
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 4: for now.

1128
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I uh, the the guys of social acceptance, and

1129
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 3: you know, ay, there's money in it. Like, you know,

1130
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: I could drop everything and become a right wing reactionary

1131
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 3: X queer and make a ton of money right now,

1132
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 3: except I'm not a complete.

1133
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 4: Right we have morals and understanding of those.

1134
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 3: But also, yeah, like I think a lot of these people,

1135
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 3: and a lot of these gay people that are suddenly

1136
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 3: becoming very vocally transphobic, they're falling for this idea that well,

1137
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 3: if we just act normal enough, we'll be accepted.

1138
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: We'll you know.

1139
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 3: So it's social acceptances. People want social acceptance. People want

1140
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 3: acceptance into these systems of power that already exists. But

1141
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 3: that's never that's not a stable way to a like

1142
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 3: that's not from a selfish level, it's not a stable

1143
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 3: way to stay like, you know, respected and safe and

1144
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 3: all of this stuff.

1145
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 1: Like they're always going to turn on you.

1146
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 3: There are a million historical examples off like honestly off

1147
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 3: the top.

1148
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: Of my head.

1149
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 3: Now, Roy Cone really interesting case study, and I think

1150
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 3: like how complete awful human being did so much damage

1151
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: to the queer community, did so much damage to like

1152
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 3: this country, and then ultimately like diet of AIDS and

1153
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: all of his Republican besties didn't do to help them, Like,

1154
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 3: they're not going to save you Jewish people that are

1155
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 3: seeing these white supremacists co opt you know, Zionism. This

1156
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 3: should be a side, right, This isn't gonna save us, right,

1157
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 3: solidarity is and solidarity with other marginalized people is the

1158
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 3: only thing that is going to save us. And I

1159
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 3: think like, yeah, this is where a lot of these

1160
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 3: groups like Queers for Palestine and like, this is what

1161
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 3: it's rooted in. It's root in this idea that I

1162
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 3: can recognize other people's oppression that mirrors mine, and I

1163
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 3: can recognize that, you know, at the end of the day,

1164
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 3: oppression is oppression. But what's the quote like that what

1165
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 3: none of us are free until like all of us

1166
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 3: are free?

1167
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: But it's misused all the time. But right, but.

1168
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's the reality like people should not be

1169
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 3: being murdered like this, that should not be right, right,

1170
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: And I think that's that whole level, Like when we

1171
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 3: saw just that one dude, I can't remember that he

1172
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 3: was on the uh on the add of protests and

1173
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 3: antagonizing people and going after people and turned out like

1174
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 3: but he was like anti you.

1175
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 4: Know, uh, he wasn't either, but he was at an

1176
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 4: anti Zionist protests I think in Colombia or something. And

1177
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 4: then it turned out he was really anti Semitic as well,

1178
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 4: Like you looked at his stuff and everything was about

1179
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 4: how like all these anti Semitic comments. So he wasn't

1180
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 4: there protests for the Jewish community. He was there because

1181
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 4: he loved antagonizing one side or the other. He loved it,

1182
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 4: like he loved seeing the downfall, and so he would

1183
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: rather support who seemed to hold up the supremacy more

1184
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 4: than the other. So it's just such an odd narrative

1185
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 4: when you start digging deeper into why people are all

1186
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 4: of a sudden looking like the good guys. And I

1187
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 4: say this very loosely because I'm not that's not I

1188
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 4: don't see him as a good guy at all, And

1189
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 4: I'm all with their protesters.

1190
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: So but you know what I.

1191
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,919
Speaker 4: Mean that that narrative, right, that narrative of like, yeah,

1192
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 4: I'm for this cause and then you're like, but you're not.

1193
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 4: You're absolutely anti semitic and you are gross and he's

1194
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 4: racism and all those things. But it's like you find

1195
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 4: those and you're like, what the hell is happening? And

1196
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 4: people are gobbling him up and seeing him as a

1197
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 4: hero exactly.

1198
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's like linking it back to the corporate

1199
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 2: pink washing stuff.

1200
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 3: It's like Lockheed Martin loves past, like.

1201
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 1: The eye flow. The eye which historically like did the.

1202
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 4: Last ride are right? They spied on people? Has still

1203
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 4: lists till this day. It was impossible.

1204
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 3: Well you know, I mean, I guess they were like

1205
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 3: Jangar Hooper, like keeping the traditional eye. But again another

1206
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 3: awful queer person who did a lot of damage to

1207
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 3: the queer community as a whole. And and you know

1208
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 3: the ability of people to live free and justin normal lives. Anyway,

1209
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 3: I gotta honestly this, I just remembered this and Annie,

1210
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 3: this is for you. This is my time on Sminthya.

1211
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 3: I gotta bring this back to Star Wars. Remember when

1212
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 3: they decided that Tarkan was gonna be gay, Like they

1213
01:03:58,120 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: just decided to make him gay one time.

1214
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: This is literally that.

1215
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember seeing a bunch of memes that people

1216
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 3: were like diversity when the guy who like blew up

1217
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 3: alder On.

1218
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:15,959
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's gay, here's one of your own.

1219
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 6: But he's evils, maybe like unintentionally one of the funniest

1220
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 6: like like reflections of the state of like queer liberation

1221
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 6: right now where it is that weird like hyper focus

1222
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 6: on like military endeavors and it's like, see, we have rights.

1223
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 1: You guys can go kill people. Another cut, you can

1224
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: go blow up alder On.

1225
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 3: So anyways, he had a whole military doctrinemn I don't know.

1226
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 3: I'm still on the Oscar Isaac fin Po trainin Poe

1227
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 3: uh fight for liberation.

1228
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: Yes, they'll be talking. Well, don't be target. We can

1229
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 1: agree on that. He's terrible.

1230
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 3: Even Darth Vader, the lesbian couple from and Or, they

1231
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 3: were cool.

1232
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: They were cool. We finally got some cool. Yes, yes, yes,

1233
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: that's amazing.

1234
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 2: Happy bride, Oh my gosh, it's always a delight to

1235
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 2: have you, Joey, thank you so much for coming on.

1236
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: Of course, very of course, very excited to have you

1237
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 2: on again.

1238
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 4: I'd be pride, y'all, happy pride, happy pride, the two

1239
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 4: of you, just us, Thanks, thanks.

1240
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: Just the two of you. Nobody listening. No, this is specific,

1241
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 1: and this is actually I will say it.

1242
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 3: So I have June his pride month, and then July

1243
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 3: is my birthday month, which means that every day is

1244
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 3: my birthday in July. So two months in a row

1245
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 3: that are all about me. I love the summer.

1246
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: Is it your favorite season?

1247
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 3: It is my favorite season. I'm a big I'm a

1248
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 3: sun baby. I am like super super pale, which is

1249
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 3: really funny. But I will like I love to spend

1250
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 3: as much time out in the sun.

1251
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: As I can.

1252
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 2: That's funny because we keep trying to get you to

1253
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 2: come to Atlanta and you're like.

1254
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: To change your lives. It's fair, No, it's fair. It

1255
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: is completely fair. We're saying like high nineties and that

1256
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: I was I was that. I'm a northern I'm a

1257
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 1: Northern nerve.

1258
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 3: When I say hot, I mean like mid eighties, mid

1259
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 3: eighties wind.

1260
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Chicago's pretty hot in the summer. Oh yeah does it?

1261
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1262
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: I know, like that wind factor.

1263
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 5: I am not.

1264
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 3: Ready, but the winter is like, don't go to Chicago

1265
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 3: in the winter, don't don't.

1266
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: Go to Ininlanta in the summer.

1267
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 3: Are doing.

1268
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: It's true? That's true.

1269
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 2: Wow, one day, one day, one day, Joey, Well, we'll

1270
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:51,439
Speaker 2: work it out.

1271
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, where can the goodlisseners? Fine to?

1272
01:06:55,400 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 3: You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at not

1273
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 3: prat that's p A t t n O T p

1274
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 3: r A t t.

1275
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: Also, if, since it is Pride Month, if you're.

1276
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 3: Interested in more cool queer storytelling and queer history told

1277
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 3: by the people that lived it, you should check out

1278
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 3: but We Loved, which is a new podcast from the

1279
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 3: Outspoken Network that.

1280
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: I am working on. So nice.

1281
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 2: You should do that anyways. Yeah, yeah, oh that's awesome.

1282
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, well, uh, listeners,

1283
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 2: go check out Joey on all of those platforms if

1284
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 2: you haven't already. If you would like to contact us,

1285
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 2: you can or emails Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

1286
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at most of a podcast,

1287
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff Never told you.

1288
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 2: We're on YouTube. We have a t polk store, We

1289
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 2: have a book you can get wherever you get your books.

1290
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: Thanks as always too our super producer Christine, our executive producer,

1291
01:07:55,160 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 2: Maya and Urk and Trip Joey Oh, thank you and

1292
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 2: thanks to you for listening.

1293
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: Steffan Never Told You is Prediction by Her Radio.

1294
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 2: For more podcasts or my heart Radio, you can check

1295
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if you

1296
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows