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Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and

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Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm

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Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Presidential crimes and United States

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Speaker 1: versus Donald Trump. Former President Donald Trump will walk into

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Speaker 1: a federal courtroom in Miami, Florida today and face criminal

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Speaker 1: charges for the second time in as many months. The

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Speaker 1: indictment handed up last week charges Trump with misappropriating classified

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Speaker 1: federal documents containing nuclear and military secrets, and obstructing government

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Speaker 1: efforts to both collect them and investigate their disappearance. It's

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Speaker 1: potentially the most devastating legal action the seventy seven year

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Speaker 1: old developer, showman, and human wrecking ball has ever faced,

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Speaker 1: and it's an utterly devastating account, filled with evidence that

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Speaker 1: Trump knew what he was doing was wrong, and he

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Speaker 1: did it anyway. Trump orchestrated the alleged crime, according to

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Speaker 1: the indictment. He wasn't just a bystander. Classified documents were

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Speaker 1: hidden all over Trump's Palm Beach mansion mar A Lago.

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Speaker 1: Some were stashed in a bathroom underneath the chandelier. Trump

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Speaker 1: allegedly asked one of his lawyers if it was okay

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Speaker 1: to destroy some of the documents. Usv. Trump is a

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Speaker 1: singular case, the first time an ex president has been

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Speaker 1: charged with crimes, including obstructing investigations by federal agencies he

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Speaker 1: once supervised, and compromising national security through violations of the

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Speaker 1: Espionage Act. It's a case that invites a robust discussion,

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Speaker 1: and to that end, I invited George Conway to crash course. George,

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Speaker 1: a graduate of l Law School, is an accomplished lawyer

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Speaker 1: and conservative activist whom Trump once considered for senior legal

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Speaker 1: roles in his own administration. His wife, Kelly Anne, was

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Speaker 1: an advisor to Trump, and George is an acute observer

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Speaker 1: of our chambolic political era.

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Speaker 2: George, Hi, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good. Thanks for making time for us today. You know,

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Speaker 1: the first thing I want to talk about relative to

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Speaker 1: the indictment is motive. Let's just talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about why he allegedly absconded with classified documents that had

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Speaker 1: such deep seated national security information in them that they

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Speaker 1: were national security threats if they had gotten out into

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Speaker 1: the wild. What do you think about Trump's motive and

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Speaker 1: all of this, George.

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Speaker 2: You're asking me, I should be asking you the question

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Speaker 2: you're the biographer.

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Speaker 1: I know, but I'm the host too, so I want

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Speaker 1: to give you a chance before I mustle in there.

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Speaker 2: Well, then I want you to pass judgment on my

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Speaker 2: judgment after I get it all right, So, look, my

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Speaker 2: view of Donald J. Trump is, as you know, and

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Speaker 2: as I have said, I guess way too many times,

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Speaker 2: he is a narcissistic psychopath or a narcissistic sociopath. Don't

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Speaker 2: hold back, no, Well, the narcissist part part of him

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Speaker 2: means that everything is about him, and everything belongs to him,

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Speaker 2: my generals, my government, my people, my Article two powers,

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Speaker 2: and so on. So but everything belongs to him. Everything

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Speaker 2: he touches the world. I mean, he's the only thing

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Speaker 2: that really exists in his world because he's such a

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Speaker 2: pathological narcissist. And the psychopathic and sociopathic part of him

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Speaker 2: is part that you know, one of the key elements

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Speaker 2: of sociopathy is just pure impulsiveness and the ability inability

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Speaker 2: to plan ahead and the ability inability to follow laws,

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Speaker 2: rules and norms. And that part of him tells me

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Speaker 2: that he just thought the stuff was his. He was

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Speaker 2: going to take it. He don't care what the law says,

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Speaker 2: and it was his and he will do whatever it

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Speaker 2: takes to take it. And if you didn't do that

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Speaker 2: when you were president, and you don't really exist because

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Speaker 2: you're just you know, you're a sucker and a loser.

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Speaker 2: And so he's convinced himself that belongs to him. He

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Speaker 2: knows some people will say that to legal but you know,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't care. And now the people who are saying, well,

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Speaker 2: he did it to sell for cash to the Saudis,

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Speaker 2: or to the Russians or to whoever, I don't really

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Speaker 2: buy that. I think he's capable of just about anything

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Speaker 2: if he were asked.

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Speaker 1: I do think he thinks about how much money he

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Speaker 1: can make on anything, almost every waking minute.

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Speaker 2: But he doesn't like if you or I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be criminals, and we thought it through and we were planning,

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Speaker 2: because we are actual people who think and plan, although

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Speaker 2: we have moral consciousness than we never do it. We

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Speaker 2: would try to figure out a way of absconding with

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Speaker 2: the documents in a way that no one would trace.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we try to use tradecraft because we

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Speaker 2: don't want to get caught, and we plan it out

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Speaker 2: very very careful. He's not capable of that because he's

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Speaker 2: a sociopath. He's capable of doing the illegal.

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Speaker 1: He's also not capable of it, George, because he's ignorant,

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Speaker 1: because it's more on yeah, he's a more yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people who can plan good crimes

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Speaker 1: have a certain amount of discipline and strategic sensibility and

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Speaker 1: just smarts, which he's lacking in a lot of those questions.

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Speaker 2: That's true, and the two things reinforce each other because

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Speaker 2: psychologists will tell you that you're bringing your ability to

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Speaker 2: think atrophies if you are a pathological larcissist or a sociopath,

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Speaker 2: because you don't ever think anything. You just say whatever

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Speaker 2: the hell you want, and.

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Speaker 1: You know you're touching, you know, the idea of the

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Speaker 1: brain atrophying. He's in daily panic about that. His father,

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Speaker 1: Fred Trump died of Alzheimer's and Donald is very aware

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Speaker 1: and worried that that's going to happen to him too.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's why you have all that projection about

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden and other people, you know, Pelosi. But so anyway,

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Speaker 2: so he just did it because you know, he's five

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Speaker 2: years old, and each type of stuff belonged to him,

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Speaker 2: and if somebody's going to give him something for it,

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Speaker 2: or if he can extract something for it along the

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Speaker 2: way down the line, at a given moment, on impulse,

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Speaker 2: he'll do it. And that's sort of like if he

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Speaker 2: could put it to use in some way that benefits him,

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Speaker 2: like the way he waved around apparently that alleged Milli

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Speaker 2: document in Bedminster. He'll do it, but it's not going

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Speaker 2: to be pre planned. And that's really part of his

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Speaker 2: motive in taking His motive was just to take it

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Speaker 2: because it was valuable. Can he convince himself it belongs

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Speaker 2: to him because the whole world belongs to him? So

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Speaker 2: that's my orange chair shrinks unprofessional view of his motive.

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Speaker 2: Official biographer, What grade do you give me? I would

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Speaker 2: give you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, we can't get into

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Speaker 1: anybody else's head. This is probably the most speculative part

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Speaker 1: of the conversation we're going to have today. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I do think money is still a reasonable reason here.

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Speaker 1: I think that's where he lives. The other thing I

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Speaker 1: thought about, after reading through the indictment a couple of

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Speaker 1: times is he's also clearly concerned about the historical record,

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Speaker 1: not in the way that you know, people who think

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Speaker 1: about history are yes, but where you know, he wants

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Speaker 1: to correct moments in his White House record where he's

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Speaker 1: looked either buffoonish or trigger happy or a threat to

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Speaker 1: the world because he wants to attack a random country.

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Speaker 2: Apropos of that part of you know, his motivation may

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Speaker 2: have been they may tried to trade some of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: He wanted to trade this stuff, apparently to NARA for

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Speaker 2: the Crossfire Hurricane documents.

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Speaker 1: Right, And you know that's also like, think how bonkers

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Speaker 1: that is at least insane? Right, You're talking about the

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Speaker 1: executive in the executive branch, the former thinking that you know,

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Speaker 1: other parts of the government are there to be transacted

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Speaker 1: with the.

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Speaker 2: Former executive who is holding government property exchanging it for

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Speaker 2: other government property that doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Belong to him, because it's like a real estate deal

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Speaker 1: or hopscotch.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, a hostage deal or something. Right, Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: is the most bonkers. I mean, there's so many bonkers

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Speaker 2: things about this, from the you know, the chandelier over

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Speaker 2: the toilet and the documents to him trying and trade

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Speaker 2: the documents back to NARA for it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was totally bonkers that there's

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Speaker 1: a chandelier over the toilet. But then when you think

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Speaker 1: about it, every seat is a throne.

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Speaker 2: If you're Donald Trump, you've been to his Fifth Avenue apartment, right.

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Speaker 1: I've been to mar A Lago too. We had dinner

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Speaker 1: there together.

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Speaker 2: I've never been to mar A Lago. I think I'm

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Speaker 2: ever going to get invited tomorrowl You're too late, You're

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Speaker 2: way too Maybe after the FED season, I'll go and.

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Speaker 1: We can do a field trip, we can do a podcast,

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Speaker 1: we can.

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Speaker 2: Go on the US Marshall's real estate tour when the season.

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Speaker 1: Here's the next thing. I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about the quality of the case, because one of the

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Speaker 1: things that also impressed me was how diligent these prosecutors

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Speaker 1: have been about setting out a fact pattern that shows

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Speaker 1: intent and knowledge. Trump was well aware of how important

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Speaker 1: classified documents and classification were before he even took office,

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Speaker 1: while he was running, clearly during office, and then even

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Speaker 1: after his president's the ended, He's constantly talking in various

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Speaker 1: situations about the importance of classification, which implies when he

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Speaker 1: took things that were classified, he knew very well what

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Speaker 1: he was doing. And I think that you know that

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Speaker 1: is one of the fulcrums that the case will pivot

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Speaker 1: off of. But proving that to a jury is going

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Speaker 1: to be something of a hurdles. But I wanted you

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Speaker 1: to tell me what you think about the quality of

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Speaker 1: the case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, all we know about the case is

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Speaker 2: really well. There are three sources of information about the

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Speaker 2: quality of the case. One is the indictment that we

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Speaker 2: just saw. Two is the summer of twenty twenty two

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Speaker 2: search warrant affidavit the FBI presented to the magistrate judge

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Speaker 2: to get the search warrant by which they rated that

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Speaker 2: I know they hate that word rated mar a Lago.

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Speaker 2: And the third is you know press reports, which consists mostly,

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Speaker 2: I think entirely of information that defense lawyers and people

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Speaker 2: around the Trump orbit have obtained from the investigation because

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Speaker 2: their witnesses went in to talk to the FBI and

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Speaker 2: to the grand jury. Now, just going on document one,

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Speaker 2: what we just saw in the indictment, it's a practice

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Speaker 2: in criminal pleading, criminal pleading indictments when you're drafting an

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Speaker 2: indictment as a prosecutor. Although I was never a prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: I can say this because it's mental law school stuff.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to plead evidence, you don't even have

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Speaker 2: to flee facts. Civil cases and a complaint you don't

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Speaker 2: have to plead evidence either, and you really don't have

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Speaker 2: to plete facts for the most part, except in certain circumstances.

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Speaker 1: The civil cases have an easier bar to overcome around intent.

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Speaker 2: Right, but there's a higher an easier bar around intent,

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Speaker 2: but a higher pleading standard. Interestingly, the government didn't have

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Speaker 2: to put any facts in here. They could have just

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Speaker 2: said there were these documents, here are the numbers, and

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Speaker 2: he took them, he was asked for them back, he lied,

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Speaker 2: he concealed them. This could have been a five page

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Speaker 2: indyte and instead the government Jack Smith in his office,

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Speaker 2: prepared what is called a speaking indict which, like a

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Speaker 2: speaking civil complaint, is something that actually explains the case

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Speaker 2: in a manner, in such detail that is not required

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Speaker 2: by the rules, but it's designed to let the reader

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Speaker 2: know that the person bringing the case has the goods.

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Speaker 2: And I have never seen a speaking indictment or a

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Speaker 2: speaking complaint in a civil case as powerful as this

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Speaker 2: speaking document.

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Speaker 1: It's also a very clear narrative. You know, it's linear,

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Speaker 1: it's clear, it's damning, and it's loaded with information.

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Speaker 2: It's linear, it's chronological, it tells a story. The story

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Speaker 2: is easy to understand. I mean, in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 2: this case is no more complicated than a nickel and

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Speaker 2: dime drug pust on a street corner in Upper Manhattan

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Speaker 2: that the Feds bring dozens of times a month. So,

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Speaker 2: as a guy who's written a lot of speaking civil complaints,

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Speaker 2: I like the lace in facts into the narrative so

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Speaker 2: that when the judge starts reading about this before he

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Speaker 2: starts making pre trial rulings, but he wants to see

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Speaker 2: what the case is about, he knows, like, we're not

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Speaker 2: screwing around. Usually, though in that narrative there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of rhetoric, hopefully not overblown, but you know, we lawyers,

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Speaker 2: we can't help ourselves, particularly in the private bar. The

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Speaker 2: government can't really engage in that kind of rhetoric, and

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Speaker 2: Jacksonith certainly doesn't do it because he is the ultimate

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Speaker 2: strace placed prosecutor. And so basically this document is actually

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Speaker 2: kind of verse. Even though it is so detailed, it

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Speaker 2: is a.

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Speaker 1: Very very hemingway instead of fuckness.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely it's legal hemingway, and it is literally it has

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Speaker 2: the density and power of matter packed in the black hole.

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Speaker 2: It is that strong. Every paragraph. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: I switched to an astrophysics metaphora and.

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Speaker 1: The galaxy being pulled into that black hole is Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump in his universe?

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Speaker 2: Yes, he is a black hole, as you know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's he's a shit show, he's a training wreck, he's

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Speaker 2: a crash course, and he's a black hole. But it's

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Speaker 2: so powerful on every page because it's got such material density.

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Speaker 2: The whole document proves criminal intent for obstruction and criminal

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Speaker 2: intent on withholding the documents on the dsbonjackt beyond a

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Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. There's evidence on every page that suffices to

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Speaker 2: put this guy in jail, like almost every paragraph.

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Speaker 1: And you know what else is throughout with all of

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Speaker 1: the witnesses is they let them walk out on a

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Speaker 1: branch and then you see them sawing the branch off

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Speaker 1: behind them. And you know that's also, I think, really powerful.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why they were able to do that

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Speaker 2: with such power and simplicity was because you don't have

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Speaker 2: to draw any inferences the stuff it's on tape what

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Speaker 2: they did. It's his own lawyer recording a history of

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Speaker 2: Trump asking the lawyer to lie to the government, and

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Speaker 2: his lawyer is dictating that in his car and they're

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Speaker 2: quoting that in the pleating. They've got timestamped video of

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Speaker 2: Trump's eight moving this shit around. Well, and they've got

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Speaker 2: that recording of Trump, you mean some piece of paper

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Speaker 2: around at Bedminster after transporting the documents up and down

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Speaker 2: the East coast in his private jet. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is just literally you could take one tenth of You

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Speaker 2: could just take a page, rip a page out, random

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Speaker 2: page out of that document and present that evidence and

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Speaker 2: get a conviction from a counter to It's crazy.

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Speaker 1: So you have no doubt that Smith and his team

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Speaker 1: will be able to persuade a jury that this is

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Speaker 1: bad and it's criminal and a penalty should be imposed.

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Speaker 2: Correct, And I don't see how it doesn't go to trial.

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Speaker 2: We'll see if Judge Cannon keeps the case. But if

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Speaker 2: she does, she's got presented to the jury, and if

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Speaker 2: she screws around with the law and tries to dismiss the.

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Speaker 1: Case, which she might, since she's a Trump appointee, and

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Speaker 1: there are questions about her suitability for her role even

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Speaker 1: prior to this.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's not because of that she's a Trump A

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Speaker 2: point I remember with Trump Point's on the Eleventh Circuit

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Speaker 2: slammed her and took the case away from her and

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Speaker 2: at least the earlier case, and you know, with Trump

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Speaker 2: appointees put an end to Trump's election litigations. But it's

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Speaker 2: because she was doing something other than judging the first

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Speaker 2: time around. So that's why I think she should refuse herself.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think she will anyway. But I think

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Speaker 2: the case has to go to a jury. I think

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Speaker 2: she's got to properly charge. The juries are not complicated charges,

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Speaker 2: and I think the best Trump can do, even if

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Speaker 2: he has some trumpy jurors who are going to ignore

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Speaker 2: the facts, is get a hung jury, which means the

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Speaker 2: case I'm going to try it again, he can't get

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Speaker 2: there's no way.

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Speaker 1: Well, the other wildcard Georges, she gets to decide the

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Speaker 1: sentence once the jury's made its mind up, and she

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Speaker 1: could completely lowball the severia.

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Speaker 2: That's true. That is true, but he'll be a convicted

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Speaker 2: felon by that. Maybe I'm being a little too optimistic

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Speaker 2: about that, but I think there's a limit to what

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Speaker 2: she can do. I think that this case is going

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Speaker 2: to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and I think

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Speaker 2: that you have to be able to trust juries, even

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Speaker 2: people who come in with political biases. And I think

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Speaker 2: the best evidence of that is actually with Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: from the eg and Carroll case. Because that jury, everybody thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's a New York Manhattan jury, Well it actually wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It was a southern district of New York Erry, which

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Speaker 2: includs some rural and suburban counties like Westchester, Orange, Putnam.

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Speaker 2: And there were a number of jurors who were not

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Speaker 2: from Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: From Red Red County, Correct.

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Speaker 2: And there was a juror who actually disclosed in the

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Speaker 2: bardire that he got all of his news from this

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Speaker 2: Timpoole podcast, which is a crazy right wing podcast. And

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Speaker 2: you know, people shouldn't listen to podcast. American people shouldn't

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Speaker 2: lien a podcast by Tim's, you know. So that juror,

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Speaker 2: notwithstanding that he was a Tim Poole fanatic with a

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Speaker 2: lunch break in two hours, he belonged with the resting,

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Speaker 2: voted to give Gene Carroll five.

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Speaker 1: Million dollars right in very short order.

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Speaker 2: I may be looking at this with rose colored glasses

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Speaker 2: or whatever, but I think there's home. You know.

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Speaker 1: The other thing, as we talk about how linear and

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Speaker 1: crisp this indictment was, it made me stand in awe

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Speaker 1: of Jack Smith, given the way other prosecutors have gone

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Speaker 1: about their business in the Trump era. You know, I think,

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Speaker 1: in my mind, most famously Robert Muller, you know, a

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Speaker 1: strong public servant, well equipped, full of integrity, knows the

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Speaker 1: law and ends up creating kind of this booby trap

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Speaker 1: ultimately for himself and then doesn't give others in Congress

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Speaker 1: or in the prosecutorial world the kind of standing they

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Speaker 1: need to go forward on clear problems. And his investigation,

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Speaker 1: including obstruction of justice, and his report was mammoth and long.

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Speaker 2: And tamby, and you know, basically all over the place,

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Speaker 2: seventy words what could have been set in seven like

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Speaker 2: you know, double negatives and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it landed like an anvil.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the other things is really interesting me is

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Speaker 1: Walton out to himself, the naval officer who then got

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Speaker 1: pulled into the MAGA world enamored of Trump and got

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Speaker 1: a White House role, and then you know, as an

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Speaker 1: aid and sort of the body man for Trump. And

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Speaker 1: then they go to marl Lago together and Walt Naana

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Speaker 1: is all over this indictment too and is in trouble clearly,

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Speaker 1: and it is one of the few moments that I

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Speaker 1: can think of in Trump's whole history as a grifter

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Speaker 1: and as a promoter and as a manipulator of other people,

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Speaker 1: where he was so ham handed about managing his relationship

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Speaker 1: with the person who was helping him do his dirty work,

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Speaker 1: in that he didn't distance himself enough from Walt Nana

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Speaker 1: to create deniability for himself, which is how he's always

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Speaker 1: used his lawyers, It's how he's used people who work

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Speaker 1: for him. It's always used some of his own family

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Speaker 1: members over the years. And this is a really glaring

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Speaker 1: case at the point in time where Donald Trump needed

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Speaker 1: to separate himself the most from one of his hatchet men,

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Speaker 1: he didn't. And there's evidence all over the place that

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Speaker 1: most of what Nana did he was doing at Trump's direction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think essentially because he has been deluded

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Speaker 2: of the protective sphere that he's had around him almost

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Speaker 2: his entire life. Mary Trump's book really explained it well.

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Speaker 2: I mean the man. She said that the man has

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Speaker 2: essentially been institutionalized in his entire life. His father took

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Speaker 2: care of him, his family took care of him, his

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Speaker 2: business took care of him.

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Speaker 1: Protected sud By wealth, insulated by celebrity, insulated by the president.

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Speaker 2: Insulated by people who were beholding to him, and that

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Speaker 2: continued in the White House. But now he doesn't really

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Speaker 2: have as many people orbiting him, and they're far less competent.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't have any good lawyers, he doesn't have any

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Speaker 2: good people around him anymore. And he's a lot crazier

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Speaker 2: than he ever was, and that's the reason he can't,

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Speaker 2: you know, he can't listen to people, he can't follow advice,

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Speaker 2: and he's spiraling downward. And that's the reason why it's

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Speaker 2: really just him and this one guy. And you know,

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Speaker 2: he's just a.

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Speaker 1: Few other three other lawyers at least at mar A

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Speaker 1: Laga who come in right.

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Speaker 2: But they testified against him. And Nwada is the guy

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Speaker 2: hanging it because he was dealing directly with Nada and

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Speaker 2: not through a chain of people and doesn't have plausible diabelly.

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Speaker 2: And there are tapes, as they were with Nixon, and

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Speaker 2: that's the thing. It's like Nixon people wanted to send

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Speaker 2: Richard Nixon to jail for what was kind of a

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Speaker 2: cryptic comment in the Smoking Gun take about well, we

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Speaker 2: could get the CIA to tell the FBI to back off,

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Speaker 2: and that was like, oh, he knew about the cover up,

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Speaker 2: and that was the smoking gun that led the Republican

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Speaker 2: leaders to go up to the hill and say, you know,

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Speaker 2: you have no more support in Congress. And it's why

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Speaker 2: people thought he should have been prosecuted after he left

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Speaker 2: office for obstruction of justice. Well, in that case, you know,

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Speaker 2: the people who were on the ground doing the dirty

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Speaker 2: work were like four or five layers away from him,

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Speaker 2: and he didn't know about it. He had dragged into

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Speaker 2: it late because those people were so incompetent, and it

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Speaker 2: gradually worked its way the cancer leadings of the presidency

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Speaker 2: that John Dean described, it sort of seeped its way

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Speaker 2: up here. Trump was in the mud. Trump was at

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Speaker 2: the water Gate. Trump was moving the boxes, basically going

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Speaker 2: through the boxes basically himself, as though he were like

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Speaker 2: turning the door in the garage at the water Gate.

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Speaker 1: It was like he was giving Howard Hunt the tape

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Speaker 1: to put over the lock on the door in the

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Speaker 1: Watergate building.

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Speaker 2: And it's all on video when they did it.

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Speaker 1: Times dr Yeah, not just a video, his own cameras

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Speaker 1: at mar A Lago recorded the obstruction of justice.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean the case against Trump makes the evidence

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Speaker 2: about Nixon chicken shit by comparison.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and all the witnesses in this are

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Speaker 1: Trump supporters and or Republican It's just like.

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Speaker 2: The January sixth. The call was coming from inside the house, like.

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Speaker 1: Repeatedly speaking of a call coming. Friends have ause. I

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Speaker 1: want to take a little break here, George, to hear

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Speaker 1: from one of our sponsors, and then we'll come right back. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back with George Conway rackur Trump observed tour.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I don't speak back on tour.

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Speaker 1: I think you do. I think you're a great storyteller. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but we're talking about someone else who's a great storyteller,

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Speaker 1: which is Jack Smith, the special counsel that Attorney General

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Speaker 1: Merrick Garland appointed to look into Trump's possible criminal misdeeds.

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Speaker 1: Is a great legal rack on tour in the way

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Speaker 1: that the prosecutor needs to be short, sweet and direct.

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Speaker 1: We were talking before the break about Trump's inability to

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Speaker 1: distance himself from people who would testify against him, which,

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Speaker 1: despite his many failings historically, he is a survivor. He

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Speaker 1: has sort of a reptilian sensibility about where peril lies

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Speaker 1: and how fast he needs to scramble away from it.

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Speaker 1: Even if he's not a high level thinker, he is

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Speaker 1: a survivor and he's survived a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: He's a mob boss. He basically has the instincts of

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Speaker 2: a mob boss. But he's not as smart as a mob.

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Speaker 1: Boss, right, he is not as smart as a mob

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Speaker 1: boss or the mob boss's advisors. But he has always

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Speaker 1: had other people around him to take the fall or

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00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: to advise him how other people could take the fall.

434
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: And his father was his original consigliary, and then he

435
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: graduated onto Roy Cone, who taught him how to weaponize

436
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: the courts against opponents and the press and many others.

437
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: But Fred Trump and Roy Cohne were real world operators

438
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: who grew up in the trenches and they knew how

439
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: the work got done, and they knew where you had

440
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: to put padding around yourself. And more or less, Trump

441
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: has gone steadily downhill since the late eighties early nineties

442
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: in the quality of his consigliaries. And you see in

443
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: the Smith indictment just evidence of how chaotic an anarchic

444
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: his advisory network around him was, including more now more.

445
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: Than ever, now, more than ever, and he's run out

446
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: of lawyers. The lawyers are all witnesses against.

447
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: You know, I think about the quality of the lawyers

448
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: around him. And when you look at Alena Habbo, who's

449
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: become one of his chief spokespeople and was one of

450
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: the attorneys at mar A Lago engaging on all this,

451
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: she comes from a very small New Jersey firm, maybe

452
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: five people. They did local real estate work. At one

453
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: point she represented a parking garage operator. She's never touched

454
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: national security issues, She's never contended with people of the

455
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 1: caliber who come out of the Justice Department. And she's

456
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: another one who's running out in front for Trump and

457
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: is based on her resume alone, does not come across

458
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: at all as someone who should be in this situation,

459
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: and yet Trump's leaning on her too.

460
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean and Trump more than that, I mean

461
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: that he did have a couple of decent I'm not

462
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: going to say great, but like actual professionals, and they

463
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: resigned the day of the indictment for whatever reason. Right

464
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 2: and all the rest of his lawyers, those are the

465
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: only two, basically who were any good and who weren't witnesses.

466
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 1: And you get a sense now that people are jumping

467
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: off of a sinking ship.

468
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: Now and Boris Epstein he has a law degree, but

469
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 2: he's never practiced law. He's not a lawyer.

470
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: And Boris EPs she knew all the lawyers who are

471
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: capable around Trump have publicly as a force for disruption

472
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 1: around their own legal strategy because he tells Trump what

473
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: he wants to hear and gets in their way. He

474
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: came into Trump's world because he and Eric were pals

475
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: at Georgetown, and by virtue that one relationship, he comes

476
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: into Trump world and Trump as is his wont if

477
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: someone's loyal and hard hitting, even if they're not top tier,

478
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 1: he gives them a lot of authority. And again, he's

479
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 1: got a person like this in the middle of his

480
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: life while this sledgehammer of an indictment comes at him.

481
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: He's got no protection. That's why he was dealing with

482
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: Nada directly. He had no one to basically stop him

483
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 2: from destroying himself, like I mean in the White House.

484
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: Remember Don Began saved Trump a couple of times by

485
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: refusing to do what Trump asked him.

486
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: To do, which became evidence in the Muller.

487
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 2: Which became evidence of in the Muller probe, and actually

488
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: was you know, evidence of obstruction, but he would have

489
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: engaged in form a worse instruction.

490
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: If McGannon hadn't told them to back down right.

491
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 2: Or hadn't threatened to resign.

492
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: And the people at mar A Lago, they're not even

493
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: it's not like back down, They're like, go further, do more.

494
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and then they testify against them.

495
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: How do you think about this case amid the constellation

496
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: of the ones that are still in play right now

497
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: and others that have come before, But let's just talk

498
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: about the ones that are staring at it right now.

499
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: There's the Georgia case voting fraud, which feels like a

500
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: slam dunk to me. There is the Manhattan DA's criminal

501
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: charge that I feel has less muscle. There's the New

502
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: York State Attorney General civil fraud case, which could be

503
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: financially perilous but not existentially perilous. And then another thing

504
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: that Jack Smith has on his place, which is the

505
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: January sixth investigation in probe, which may lead to insurrection

506
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: charges and disrupting the government charges against Trump's sedition and

507
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: insurrection and all the bad things. But that's an unknown still.

508
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: Jack Smith is still working on that one. So where

509
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: do you place this case. I mean the constellation of

510
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: all the others I've just spoken about.

511
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 2: Oh, I've always placed this case as numero unos since

512
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: the day we started to learn about it, because it

513
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: is factually the simplest case. It is a very serious case.

514
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: I mean the Espionage Act counts, dozens of them carry

515
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: potential sentences of ten years per count.

516
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: Some I think could go to twenty, right.

517
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: And there's an obstruction count I think it was I

518
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: think it's the obstruction count that. Yeah, there's one that

519
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 2: has a twenty year sentence. And this is serious stuff,

520
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: and the evidence is basically undisputed. And you know, as

521
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: the indictment makes clear, it's just a simple, simple story

522
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: to tell and only two things that are complicated. One

523
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: is this just so much evidence pointing to the same thing.

524
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: It's cumulative. Yeah, I just have to sort through and

525
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: kind of simplify it for the jury. And the only

526
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: other complicated thing potentially about it is the fact that

527
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: itvolves classified documents. There are procedural hurdles that must be

528
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: overcome when you're dealing with presenting classified documents in court.

529
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: You can't do any quite an open court and take

530
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: a lot of measures well, I don't know if the

531
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: Trump have to get lawyers because he doesn't have any

532
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: right now. He's got to get lawyers with security clearances,

533
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: or he can't defend the case. So it's really going

534
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: to be interesting. The only thing he's got going for

535
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: him is really the lucky draw of Judge Cannon again,

536
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: and that's basically the only thing he's got going for him.

537
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: There's one other thing in that indictment. There's at least

538
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: one moment, there's maybe two where I thought that's to myself,

539
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: but the Justice Department was very aggressive about piercing the

540
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: veil of attorney client privilege between Trump and his lawyers,

541
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: and I think in at least one moment I sort

542
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: of wondered if the government is playing hardball there to

543
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: such an extent that they look thuggish in an effort

544
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: to pierce that veil. But that's just my read.

545
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so at all. I think the

546
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: fact that the Chief Judge of the United States District

547
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: Court for the District of Columbia, apparently we haven't seen

548
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: the actual texts of the opinion I don't think has

549
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: been unsealed, but wrote a lengthy opinion in which she

550
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: explained the basis for concluding that Trump's attorney client privilege

551
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: should be pierced under the prime frauductception. I'm sure she

552
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: did a very thorough job. Judges don't like to do that.

553
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: They are very protective. They understand the goal of criminal

554
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: defense counsel in criminal litigation.

555
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: Again, you know, the idea that you can have a

556
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: confidential discussion with your attorney.

557
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: Right, And virtually all judges at one point maybe except

558
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: for a couple academics here and there, were practicing lawyers,

559
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: all federal judges, and you know, they understand the importance,

560
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: essential need for the any client privilege in a fair

561
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: system that guarantees to process of law. So it is

562
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: very rare that you see the government obtain the kind

563
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 2: of rulings that he'd obtained in this investigation. And that's

564
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: because the evidence was just simply so strong.

565
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: So you don't think there's going to be any evidence

566
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: that gets pulled on those grounds from this specific indictment.

567
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: No, No, I mean, you know, you look at the

568
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: quotes from Corkoran, who is describing apparently he was in

569
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: his car or something, and he dictated his recollections of

570
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: his interactions with Trump over the course of the investigation

571
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: and basically describing how Trump was trying to get him

572
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: to lie and to get others to conceal documents. There's

573
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: just no question he was trying to use his lawyers

574
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: to carry out a crime and a fraud. And there's

575
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: no privilege for that. There's absolutely no privilege that it

576
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: goes away. It's really really hard, it's a really high standard.

577
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: But Donald Trump just amazingly managed to clear that urdle.

578
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: Very impressive, very impressive. No, not many people could have

579
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: done that.

580
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: Given out stark and damning this indictment is how do

581
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: you feel about Trump's various GOP defenders and enablers who

582
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: have come out on his behalf to essentially slag the

583
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: federal government and its intentions.

584
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: It's shameless, it's awful, it is immoral, it is unpatriotic,

585
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: it is disgusting, and now it's par for the course,

586
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: and it's very dangerous because this is what we have

587
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: in our country that keeps us from basically resolving all

588
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: disputes with guns and knives is the rule of law,

589
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: and for basically the bulk of an entire party leadership

590
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: to cast off the rule of law, and to show

591
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: contempt for the rule of law and contempt for the

592
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: enforcement of law is a very dangerous thing. I mean,

593
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: this is one of our two major political parties, and

594
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: they basically have forsaken the legal system.

595
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: And you know, stated on numerous occasions that they think

596
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: that Trump properly exercised presidential authority to declassify information when

597
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: you're removed from the White House and therefore there's not

598
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: a case here. Any number of them have said that

599
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: in tracy into authorities, the president doesn't have.

600
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: Correct I mean, it's based upon a bizarre, anti textual,

601
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: contrary to reality reading of the Presidential Records Act that

602
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: was promoted by Tom Finton, who's not even a lawyer. Basically,

603
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: it says that, oh, all the president's documents belong to him. No,

604
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: that's not what it says. It literally says in one

605
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: of the first provisions that everything that the president touches

606
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: in the course of his official duties, that he gets

607
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: from his subordinates belongs to the United States of America

608
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: and it goes to the National Archives on January twentieth,

609
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: at noon of a post selection year. So it's incredible,

610
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: but they will tell any lie, make up any story

611
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: to protect Donald Trump. It's really disgusting and outrageous.

612
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: On that happy note, I want to take another break.

613
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: George in here from our sponsors. We're back with George Conway, lawyer,

614
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: analyst and guests today at Crash Course. We're talking about

615
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: the indictment of Donald Trump by the federal government last Friday.

616
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is going to get walked into a federal

617
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: courthouse in Miami today to face a bit of a reckoning.

618
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: We were talking before the break George about Trump's defenders

619
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: and enablers in the GOP. Trump often gives people a playbook.

620
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: One of his playbooks has been to attack prosecutors and

621
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: immediately calling to question their bona fides and the nature

622
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: of the prosecution. Basically, everything's a witch hunt. He never

623
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: talks about the merit of the investigations, and he wasted

624
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: very little time attacking Jack's Smith as a coward. And

625
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: the intensity and the fact that you watch Smith on

626
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: TV said something to me. Because Donald Trump doesn't really

627
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: care about most people, as you noted at the top

628
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: of the show, he's a profound narcissist, but he closely

629
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: studies the people he fears, the people he admires and

630
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: envies celebrities and athletes and the people he wants to

631
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: court or corrupt, and he pays a lot of attention

632
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: to them. And the only reason I think he's paying

633
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: this much attention to Jack Smith and talking so publicly

634
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: about it, is because he's scared of Jack Smith. He

635
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: knows what Jack Smith has.

636
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. I mean, and all of what you

637
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: hear is, you know, psychological rejection. He's just driven by

638
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: politic politics and corrupt and insane. I mean, it's just

639
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 2: all pure projection, and it's just classic, classic Donald Trump.

640
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: Another thing I think this indictment does, in the fact

641
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: pattern has made public, is it blows apart the idea

642
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is so utterly clueless, ignorant, and lawless

643
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: that he doesn't even know sometimes that he's breaking the law.

644
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: He's sew out on his own lunar planet. Right, That

645
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: proving intent with somebody like him is hard because he

646
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: specializes in know nothingism. But what this case shows is

647
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: his intense, intense engagement with hiding these boxes and moving

648
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: them around because he knew what he did, and he

649
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: knew what he was doing, right, he.

650
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: Knew what he was doing he knew what he was

651
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: doing was illegal, He knew what he was doing was

652
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: something that he didn't want people to know about. He

653
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: knew that what he possessed was something he wasn't allowed

654
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: to have, so he told people to pluck the stuff

655
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 2: out literally, and he knew. He just doesn't care. The

656
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: rules don't apply to him. He doesn't care. And that's

657
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: classic sociopath right there.

658
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: Well, And in this case, he went from not caring

659
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: because they were his to rushing through an attempt to

660
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: cover it all up and to hide the documents. Again,

661
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: he clearly knew.

662
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: Right, and he brought it all on himself because despite

663
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: the volume of the classified stuff he had taken, if

664
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: he had just allowed Nara in I don't know what

665
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 2: was in May of twenty twenty one, to come into

666
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: mar A Lago and search the entire place and take

667
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: every single document so that there was clearly nothing left,

668
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: I don't know that we would have ever heard about

669
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: this case, even though it was a truckload of stuff.

670
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: So he really did it to himself.

671
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: An epic cell phone, right, I think.

672
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,959
Speaker 2: If he had turned the stuff back over, despite the

673
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 2: sensitivity of despite the volume, I mean, Nara probably would

674
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: have told the Justice Department that, yeah, there were some

675
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: classified documents in there, and there would have been some

676
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: kind of investigation, but the conclusion would be I think, like,

677
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: you know, this wasn't great, but you know, given the

678
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: chaos that ensued in the final days of the Trump administration,

679
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, we can't say that he did this with

680
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: some kind of nefarious intent. And that's illustrated by the

681
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: fact that he gave the stuff that and so that's

682
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: essentially what is happening with Hence with a small, far

683
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: smaller volume of documents, that is going to happen with Biden,

684
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: with a very small number of documents that they gave

685
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: the stuff back. The stuff was just mixed in with

686
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: other stuff, and that happens. That happens all the time.

687
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: And they gave it pack as soon as it was

688
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: asked at.

689
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: Correct and they voluntarily turned it over.

690
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: In fact, even though it's also bunkers that Biden was

691
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: keeping the stuff stash in his garage and he bragged

692
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: about that.

693
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: It is bonkers, but it just doesn't rise anywhere near

694
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: to this level. And then you know, they talk about Hillary.

695
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: And lock her up for a raft of email that

696
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: was largely inconsequential after.

697
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: I mean, she shouldn't have done it. It was bad.

698
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: She shouldn't have done it. It was reckless. It also

699
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: is in keeping with some of the way the Clintons

700
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: have rolled historically around this kind of stuff themselves. But

701
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: it's not This isn't a different world than what Donald

702
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: Trump has done.

703
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 2: But there weren't documents involved that said classified. I mean,

704
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: there may have been traces of classified information disgusting email,

705
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: but not actual classified material stand classified.

706
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: It was reckless and irresponsible. She wasn't selling the country

707
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 1: out by, you know, trying to let national security seekers

708
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: get out into the wild. It was justum And you know,

709
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: that's one of the sort of karmic I think realities

710
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: of this case is that Donald Trump in twenty sixteen

711
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: made hay by attacking Hillary Clinton's integrity and her own

712
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: recklessness with email, and the media turned email into a

713
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: cudgel against her. But again, what goes around comes around.

714
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: I mean, she deserved it to some extent, but the

715
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: fact is that the hypocrisy is just incredible.

716
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: Every leader deserves to be criticized about slipping or falling

717
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: down on the job. But Hillary Clinton didn't break.

718
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: Any laws correct, she wasn't a criminal.

719
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: You know. One of the signal moments to me in

720
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: the indictment is that July twenty twenty one meeting at

721
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: Bedminster Trump's golf course where he's talking about a military

722
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: plan of attack document that was, as Trump said, according

723
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: to a recording of that conversation, which by the way,

724
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: he lets someone sit and record these things in front

725
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: of him, in which he to the document was quote

726
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: unquote highly confidential quote unquote very secret.

727
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: Then I can't show it to you. I didn't declassify.

728
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 2: And any ways, it rounds it. Don't get too closed.

729
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it's insane.

730
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Then he says to them, see his president, I

731
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: could have declassified it, but I didn't. Now I can't,

732
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: but this is still a secret. Yeah, And someone laughs

733
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: and says, yeah, no problem. Yeah, And Trump replies, isn't

734
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: that interesting, right?

735
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: He understood it was technically, it was legally a problem,

736
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: and he didn't care. He just didn't care. It was

737
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: that the cavalierness of it is just beyond And.

738
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: He's unsuitable for office.

739
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: This alone, he's unsuitable for office. And I think people

740
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 2: in the national security field are just absolutely bonkers about

741
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,959
Speaker 2: how the cavalier he was about this stuff and outrage.

742
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: The indictment notes Trump saying back in twenty sixteen, a

743
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: few months I think before the election that no one

744
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: will be above the law in his administration. That, of course,

745
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: is one of the larger issues that is present in

746
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: much of the legal the prosecutions around Trump and the

747
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: legal criticisms of his role as president, is that he

748
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: actually does think he's above the law. He thinks Article

749
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: two allows him to be a monarch rather than a president.

750
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 2: And if you follow the law, you're a sucker. Yes,

751
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 2: a good lawyer gives me a way around the law

752
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: and protects me.

753
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: From it well in my own ego, and lawlessness enables

754
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: me to do it anytime I want, regardless of what

755
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: the lawyer says too, because that's how I.

756
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: Roll correct and I'm not going to have it any

757
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: other way.

758
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: But this came up when Congress was trying to get

759
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: his tax records and they wouldn't turn them over. They

760
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: believe that the documents shouldn't go into the hands of

761
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: the Democrats and the Congress.

762
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: Even though the statute specifically made clear that it had

763
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: to go to Congress.

764
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: Yes, it's crazy and Roberts said as much in his

765
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: own ruling on it, and he said, no one is

766
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: above the law. In fact, especially the president isn't and

767
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: he was talking about tax matters back then. Is your

768
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: view that we've gotten to a place now where the

769
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: GOP believes in such a strong executive that they do

770
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: believe the executive should be above the law in order

771
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: to create policy and social changes that they support, or

772
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: do you think this is just grotesque, immoral, craven political transactionism. Yes,

773
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: because they've realized that playing on people's fears and racism

774
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: and other nefarious factors is an effective path to power.

775
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the answer is no to the first part of it,

776
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: and yes the second part of it. And what I

777
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 2: mean is it's not about a belief in presidential power,

778
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: because they would be the first people to attack a

779
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: democratic president who did this stuff. It's not about presidential power.

780
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 2: It's about power. It's about their own power, and they

781
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: believe that their president, who's doing things that they like,

782
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,959
Speaker 2: should be entitled to break the law and be unaccountable

783
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: to the wall, but the other side should be locked up.

784
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: And it's purely political, it's purely a power play. It's

785
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: purely cynical, and it is absolutely the antithesis of the

786
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: rule of wall that binds this country together.

787
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: You know, when we're speaking earlier about motive, there's a

788
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: quote in that indictment where Trump is bragging to a

789
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: writer and flashing a classified document to prove that the

790
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: media had misreported a military issue in his White House,

791
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: and he says to the writer, this totally wins my case.

792
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: You know about this document, and he's saying, this totally

793
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: wins my case in the media sense of what he's saying.

794
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: But what he's not at least cognizant of or in

795
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: touch with, is that it set him up to lose

796
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: this very important case that's now facing him.

797
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, he's just self sabotage us. There's just

798
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: no question about it.

799
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: George. We always like to ask guests what they've learned.

800
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: So what have you learned about Trump and the lot

801
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: that you didn't know before this indictment was filed?

802
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: Honestly nothing. I always believed that sooner or later he

803
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: would blow himself up. I couldn't tell you how I

804
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: thought it would come sooner rather than later, But I

805
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: always thought he was going to do something that was

806
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: so egregious as he got away with more and more

807
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: things and became more and more reckless, and more and

808
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: more cavalier, and more and more out there, and that

809
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 2: he would ultimately do. If you told me after January

810
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: sixth that this actually isn't the thing January six isn't

811
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: the thing that's going to take him out forever, because

812
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: there are things we don't know about that could come out,

813
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: I would say, I'm sure that's true. And so in

814
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: a sense, none of this surprises me. I mean I

815
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: was shocked by the evidence that was presented in the

816
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: search warrant.

817
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: Well, so let me rephrase it that way. Was there

818
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: something about this specific indictment that was a learning moment

819
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: for you?

820
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 2: No? No, I mean it wasn't. I mean, I think

821
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: it's as I said, I think it's a magnificent pleading,

822
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: and I think it's really well done. I think the

823
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: evidence is astounding. I think it is the most historic

824
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: criminal case probably brought since the treason prosecution of Aaron

825
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: Burr in eighteen oh three or four or whatever. But

826
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: it is the logical conclusion to Donald Trump. It absolutely is.

827
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 2: I mean there may yet be something else that we

828
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 2: don't know about. That's even worse. There is no bottom

829
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: with Donald Trump, there never has been and there never

830
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: will be.

831
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: But the myth that he's untouchable by the law has

832
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: been fully blown out.

833
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think Jeene Carroll basically put the first

834
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: nail in the conference.

835
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: And there's still more to come, many more nails. But George,

836
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: we've run out of time. Thanks for getting together today.

837
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: We've been having these conversations for too long now.

838
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sir.

839
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: George Conway can be found all over your TV screens

840
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at GT Conway the Third. Here at

841
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: Crash Course, we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising,

842
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that

843
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: the federal government's suit against Donald Trump is even more

844
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: air tight than I believed it to be. And let

845
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: me tell you, I thought it was air tight the

846
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: first time I read it. What did you learn? We'd

847
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can tweet at the

848
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien

849
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe

850
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave

851
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: us a review that helps more people find the show.

852
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Anima Aserakats, moses

853
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 1: On Dam and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson,

854
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce,

855
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: Jeff Grocott, Mike Nitze and Christine Vanden Bilert. Blake Maple says,

856
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: our sound engineering and our original theme song was composed

857
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: by Luis Garra. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next

858
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: week with another Crash course