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Speaker 1: Bodybuts.

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Speaker 2: But Joseph Scott Morgan, it's really easy, Dave, for someone

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Speaker 2: like me, after all of these years, you know, to

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Speaker 2: pick up stones and start throwing them at the people

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Speaker 2: that worked this case all these many years ago. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think that many times in the

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Speaker 2: world that we live in, it's so dominated about technology

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Speaker 2: that we find ourselves in right now, people will default too.

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Speaker 2: They'll say, well, they didn't have access to the technology

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Speaker 2: that we have. As far as crime solving goes, technology

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Speaker 2: has nothing to do with this. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: and this is body back. This is I started working

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Speaker 2: in forensics back in the eighties, Dave. The same principles

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Speaker 2: still hold true that held true during that time period.

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Speaker 2: There's certain things that we do at a base level

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Speaker 2: where where you have an expectation of security of the

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Speaker 2: scene because you don't want to lose you don't want

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Speaker 2: to lose anything that's a scene, and you don't want

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Speaker 2: to introduce or add something to the scene that should

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Speaker 2: not have been there.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Joe, I am so thankful that we have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to dig into this story one last time. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about the Jean Bonne Ramsey case. Now, we did

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Speaker 1: talk about it during the Christmas holiday and the Netflix

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Speaker 1: documentary and what came out in that, but there were

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Speaker 1: a couple of things that we missed that I really

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Speaker 1: wanted to cover. And I'm just so thankful that you

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Speaker 1: agreed to do this, Joe, because right at the start,

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Speaker 1: I was really concerned about the scene of the crime

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Speaker 1: and what was done to it. My first thought was,

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Speaker 1: why are there people in the house besides the police?

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Speaker 1: That was just number one right out of the gate

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Speaker 1: on the earliest coverage of this story, because in everything,

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Speaker 1: all of us know you need to get everybody out

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Speaker 1: so you can just we're gonna be able to investigate properly.

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Speaker 1: Starting at square one, You've got all these people in

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Speaker 1: the house making food and everything else and wiping up

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Speaker 1: table calls. I mean, it's ridiculous what happened. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not even a cop, but the fact that police allowed

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Speaker 1: that to take place, shame on them, Shame on everybody involved.

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Speaker 1: That should have never happened, but then it has. And

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Speaker 1: the first thing you do, because you've got people milling around,

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Speaker 1: you need to give them something to do. Well, why

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Speaker 1: don't y'all take a good look around the house. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just go looking. And John Ramsey goes straight to a

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Speaker 1: place you would not normally get to in that house.

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Speaker 1: You have to go downstairs and through, you know, to

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Speaker 1: this area they referred to as a wine cellar. But

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a wine cellar. It was just a you know,

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Speaker 1: a downstairs area and they and he goes because of

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Speaker 1: her body, now if you.

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Speaker 2: Guess, and yeah, we have to keep in mind that

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Speaker 2: there's like another area adjacent to it that they call,

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Speaker 2: I think they called the train room. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 2: and that's where he actually and you know, Dave.

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Speaker 1: They I'm so glad you said that, Joe I forgot

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Speaker 1: about the train room.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and that plays into it, you know, which

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Speaker 2: we'll get to, uh with marks that are found in

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Speaker 2: her body. But you know that when this they'll passo

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Speaker 2: former l Passo County investigator that keep in mind this

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Speaker 2: person is different than the Bolder police department. This individual said, well,

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Speaker 2: it's a lack of experience on the Bolder police departments,

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Speaker 2: you know, part because they didn't know how to how

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Speaker 2: to handle this thing. But you've got this this one

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Speaker 2: investigator that is handling the case. And she, you know,

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Speaker 2: she famously went on air and made all of these

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Speaker 2: assations about the case and went on and on. And

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Speaker 2: she's in charge at the scene. You were talking about

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Speaker 2: John Ramsey. She looks at him as if I need

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Speaker 2: to get this guy out of my hair or whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: She said this, You and your friend go search the

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Speaker 2: rest of the house. And you know, for me, when

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Speaker 2: somebody I hear somebody say that, you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: that commercial about you know, the little elderly women talk

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Speaker 2: about where she says, I unfriend you like that, and

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Speaker 2: they're talking about the Facebook and and the one lady says,

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Speaker 2: that's not how this works. That's not how any of

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Speaker 2: this works. And you're absolutely right. You do not ask

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Speaker 2: the father of a missing six year old while you're

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Speaker 2: sitting in the house as a police officer, to have

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Speaker 2: them go search the house. Now that that's not what

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Speaker 2: you do. If you don't have enough resources, there's other

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Speaker 2: post certified police officers in this county that you can

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Speaker 2: reach out to. Hey, we need help, send help now,

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Speaker 2: and we need to be able to canvass the area.

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Speaker 2: We need to be able to secure the scene. You're

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Speaker 2: going to rely on a dad and his friend to

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Speaker 2: go search the house. And as you mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 2: when they make their way down into the basement of

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Speaker 2: this home, this labyrinth that you have to go through,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's when you know John actually finds Jean

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Speaker 2: Benet down in that area and by the by. As

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Speaker 2: a result of him finding her, what does he do, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's what you would, I think that most reasonable people

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Speaker 2: would think would a father would do. He picks his

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Speaker 2: child up, removes her from this scene. Now, if that

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Speaker 2: had been say a police officer, they may have walked over,

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Speaker 2: checked for a pulse. They see that she's cyanotic or blue,

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Speaker 2: she might be cool to the touch. Guess what they're

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Speaker 2: not going to do with body. This is no longer

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Speaker 2: a rescue. This is no longer trying to do compressions

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Speaker 2: on her chest. This is leaving her in place. And

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Speaker 2: it's at that moment in time, if it had not

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Speaker 2: already gone off the rails, this is where the whole

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Speaker 2: thing kind of you know, really begins to take a

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Speaker 2: turn for the worst possible case scenario here, because now

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Speaker 2: you've got dad entering into this environment. Maybe in a

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Speaker 2: reactive moment, he grabs his daughter, his daughter's remains. He

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Speaker 2: thinks there's a chance that she can be saved, and

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Speaker 2: of course she's beyond beyond that at this point. Tom.

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Speaker 2: But because for whatever reason, this detective directs him to

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Speaker 2: do this. Yeah, granted he found the body along with

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Speaker 2: his buddy found the body, but you know, more more

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Speaker 2: harm was done than certainly good David.

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Speaker 1: Well, Joe, all I'm thinking, okay, is you sent him

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Speaker 1: to go look for the child. In his mind's eye,

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Speaker 1: if there was already a cover up, and they had

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Speaker 1: already staged the body, you know, in the basement to

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Speaker 1: make it look as if she had been murdered, sending

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Speaker 1: John Ramsey or anybody else non police oriented to go

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Speaker 1: down there. All they're thinking is I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: straight and I'm fixing this because now whatever they had

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Speaker 1: staged before that had to remain static. Huh. I can

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Speaker 1: get rid of all the evidence right now. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to rip off the duct tape. I'm going to undo

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Speaker 1: this Garrett around her neck. I mean, I'm evidence is

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Speaker 1: all gone, Every bit of it is totally wipe from

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Speaker 1: the crime scene. Now they have to try to piece

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Speaker 1: it back together to find out how was she strangled?

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Speaker 1: We got the rope, well, what was it was? Nylon

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Speaker 1: h there had been.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a woven it's a woven nylon rope.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was tied into a knot in a

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Speaker 1: certain way. But then the gear they was actually a

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Speaker 1: stick something used from Patsy Ramsey's hobby kit was used

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Speaker 1: to turn it and it broke.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a groat. Uh. Yeah, some people say garrot

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Speaker 2: garroat uh. And it's used as this this weapon, and

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Speaker 2: it is a weapon. Groats are known as weapons, that's

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Speaker 2: how they're defined. Did you know, and here's an interesting

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Speaker 2: little aside, did you know that the garrotting or groating

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Speaker 2: of individuals for tom I think it may have been

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Speaker 2: in France. I can't remember where specifically that this was

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Speaker 2: an execution method. Do you know that now they used

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Speaker 2: to do it. Yeah, they would. They would take an

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Speaker 2: individual and you can see wood carvings of these they're

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Speaker 2: out there, lithiographs or whatever they're called. I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Where the individual is seated in a chair and bounds

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Speaker 2: like their hands are bound behind them. It's a straight

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Speaker 2: back chair in like a courtyard where the public education

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Speaker 2: execution would take place, and they would put a garrot

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Speaker 2: groat around the neck of the individual and turn it

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Speaker 2: from the back like this and slowly kill the person.

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Speaker 2: In public views, It's an agonizing way to die because

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Speaker 2: with every turn of that thing.

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Speaker 1: You.

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Speaker 2: Are exerting more and more pressure. You know, you begin

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Speaker 2: to see the tongue balls, the eyes balls, they become cyanautic,

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Speaker 2: all these things you know now. Years ago I worked

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Speaker 2: a series as kind of a I hate to say this,

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Speaker 2: diminishing diminishing the lives of the individuals were killed, but

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Speaker 2: it was like a short series of serial killings. It's

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Speaker 2: like six victims to this guy's count. And he was

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Speaker 2: killing prostitutes. And he used to corot after he had

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Speaker 2: drugged him. And he had multiple places where he would

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Speaker 2: reset the garrot and realign it. And his was made

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Speaker 2: out of wire, by the way, and he would take

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Speaker 2: it and he would turn it, and they would get

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Speaker 2: to the point of losing consciousness, he'd release it and

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Speaker 2: then he'd reinitiate the thing. So make no mistake when

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Speaker 2: you see, this is not like just grabbing a cord. Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is not like just grabbing a cord where you're

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Speaker 2: going to wrap it around. So our piece of rope

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Speaker 2: or a coat hanger or a weapon as we say,

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Speaker 2: a weapon of convenience. This is thought out. This is

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Speaker 2: something that was used in order to to elicit terror

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Speaker 2: upon the victim. I have no doubt in my mind

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Speaker 2: this was a sadistic killing. And the thing that's fascinating

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Speaker 2: about this, Dave, is that you know, John Ramsay said

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Speaker 2: in his statement that if I remember correctly and I

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Speaker 2: think not statement, this was in the interview when he

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Speaker 2: saw this thing, it was tied so tight he couldn't

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Speaker 2: he couldn't unbind it. And this is what is referred

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Speaker 2: to as a very complex knot. That's why that they

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Speaker 2: believed that whoever fixed this thing had experience with tie

187
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Speaker 2: knots and complex knots. That's that has always that's been

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Speaker 2: one of these things that has rung through And when

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Speaker 2: you see her autopsy pictures, you can see this this uh,

190
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Speaker 2: the complexity of this thing, that ligature that's used in

191
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Speaker 2: this case, Given the complexity of this knot, I hope

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Speaker 2: that retrospectively, due care was taken with this thing, because

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Speaker 2: you know what it can offer up. It can offer

194
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Speaker 2: up DNA because for every turn and twist of that knot,

195
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Speaker 2: if the individual is not gloved, they're touching multiple surfaces

196
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Speaker 2: on this thing as it's being constructed, and the paintbrush

197
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Speaker 2: stick thing is that goes without saying, obviously, but just

198
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Speaker 2: the surfaces of that knot, and when you think about

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Speaker 2: the complexity of it, that would require this thing to

200
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Speaker 2: be manipulated to a great degree. So I'm wondering if

201
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Speaker 2: due care was taken with that ligature itself.

202
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Speaker 1: When I was hearing them talk about the ligature and

203
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Speaker 1: the rot I remember John Wayne Gacy doing the same thing,

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Speaker 1: using it to turn and torture. You know that that

205
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Speaker 1: was the first one I'd actually heard of, and then

206
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Speaker 1: seeing this one, and all I could think of is

207
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Speaker 1: this is something that required time and preparation. So with

208
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Speaker 1: the time of preparation that went into if it was

209
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Speaker 1: somebody who just snuck in in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: night and was able to do this, you realize that

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Speaker 1: they have to know the building enough to know where

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Speaker 1: they can access the house in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: They have to be able to find themselves walking around

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Speaker 1: the house without waking anybody up through this maze of places.

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Speaker 1: Then they have to be able to get her out

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Speaker 1: of her bed, take her downstairs, and kill her, and

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Speaker 1: then they've done they came in, and they've come into

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Speaker 1: the house and killed her in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 1: and then bother to leave a ransom note. Why would

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Speaker 1: they leave a ransom note, Joe, if they've killed her

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Speaker 1: and left her behind. If you're going to leave a

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Speaker 1: ransom note, there would have to be the child would

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Speaker 1: have to be gone for it mean anything. And since

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Speaker 1: the child is already dead and left behind, why leave her?

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Speaker 1: Why would anybody leave a ransom note? You have no ransom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, the only thing I could really

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Speaker 2: think a brother was the fact that somebody was trying

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Speaker 2: to put somebody off scent if you will, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: to try to misdirect you.

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Speaker 1: See that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, to try to yeah, to try to sell

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Speaker 2: people on the fact that she's elsewhere. But why would

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Speaker 2: you leave the body behind? That's what I don't I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand that. And you know two point three

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Speaker 2: relative to this reporter's assessment, you know, she she had

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Speaker 2: alluded to the fact that that this detective Bob Whitson,

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Speaker 2: you know, it said that that he asked for handwriting

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Speaker 2: from both John and Patsy and which you know he

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Speaker 2: received back in uh, you know, from two notebook pads,

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Speaker 2: and you could see those on the documentary they showed

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Speaker 2: they demonstrated those pads. I'd never seen those before. So

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Speaker 2: I'm with her on this, you know, which was you know,

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Speaker 2: keep keep in mind, this is this is prior to

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Speaker 2: the days of texting, you know, or prior to the

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Speaker 2: days of people sitting down. I mean, I still, like,

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Speaker 2: Lord knows, my precious wife, she she can't live without

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Speaker 2: an actual calendar. She has physically has a calendar. She

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Speaker 2: writes everything in each day. And so but you know,

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Speaker 2: that's that's the way things have, you know, were always done.

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Speaker 2: You had a notebook that you would write and enter

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Speaker 2: things into, and so that's where they get that would

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Speaker 2: be referred to. Again, I think we just mentioned this

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Speaker 2: in one of our actually one of our recent episodes.

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Speaker 2: But you know, this is where it plays into getting

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Speaker 2: an exemplar of writing. So you have a real you

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Speaker 2: have a real time exis impl are or an example

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Speaker 2: of what an individual's writing looks like in the course

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Speaker 2: of day to day life. Here, you're not it's not

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Speaker 2: a dictated exemplar where you ask someone you dictate to

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Speaker 2: them what is written, you know, in a ransom note

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Speaker 2: and you dictate to them and say, write this statement down.

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Speaker 2: This is a real life exemplar of how they normally write.

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Speaker 2: So the idea is that you take and compare what

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Speaker 2: you see in the notebook to what to what you

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Speaker 2: have in this ransom note, and are there any similarities,

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Speaker 2: you know, relative to this. But when I've always been

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Speaker 2: fascinated by the fact that they believe that the notebook

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Speaker 2: that the note was written in is was property of

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Speaker 2: the of the Ramses, and that it was physically there

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Speaker 2: and it was actually discovered, I believe you know too,

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Speaker 2: to have probably what's referred to as kind of a

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Speaker 2: pressure connection where if any of you, any of you

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Speaker 2: guys you know, know this, if you say, for instance,

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Speaker 2: you've seen it in movies, it's an old movie trope

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Speaker 2: with somebody will write a note and they'll rip the

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Speaker 2: sheet out, and then you can take a pencil, you know,

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Speaker 2: and scratch over the surface of it, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, hidden writing writing begins to appear. You can

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Speaker 2: actually see the pressure through the page. That means that

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Speaker 2: somebody's leaning forward, pressing down with the writing device, and

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Speaker 2: they create, you know, these little creases in a note.

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Speaker 2: And so that note would be taken away and Dave,

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Speaker 2: this note is so my god, it's so extensive because

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't know about for you, but you know,

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Speaker 2: you always think about you know, I have a I

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Speaker 2: will kill everybody here, provide this money and drop it

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Speaker 2: off at this address. That's not that's not what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about here. We're talking about something that's highly complex.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're they're establishing who we are. We're part

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Speaker 2: of a foreign fact. Oh my god, foreign faction God

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Speaker 2: in Boulder, Colorado. I'm not saying that foreigner a university,

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Speaker 2: but I'm just saying, out of all the people in

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Speaker 2: the world, you know, you're going to show up and yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean people have said that, you know John, you know,

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Speaker 2: John's a very wealthy man. He's involved in software. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that you know, he's come across. But you know,

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Speaker 2: there's very specific details. I think the thing that really,

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Speaker 2: you know, caught people's eye. Dave and I guess we're

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Speaker 2: number three or number four here, you know in this

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Speaker 2: reveal for her, for this reporter is the one hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighteen thousand dollars. You know why number Yeah, well

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Speaker 2: that that is an odd number. Why aren't you going

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Speaker 2: to ask for a quarter of a million dollars if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about you're talking about dude, that's a multimillionaire. Yea,

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Speaker 2: all right? Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars? Why not?

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Speaker 2: Why not a round figure like two hundred thousand, quarter

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Speaker 2: of a mill why not five hundred thousand? Why not

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Speaker 2: a million? You know, if you're going to dude, if

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Speaker 2: you're going to run the risk because kidnapping is a

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Speaker 2: federal offense and you will get life imprisonment for it.

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Speaker 2: If dude, if you're going to roll the bones here man,

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Speaker 2: go all in. Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars?

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Speaker 2: Specific that? Yeah, exactly? But who knows that information?

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Speaker 1: There's something about the note I want to share with you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I looked this up at the because I was curious

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Speaker 1: as to win was Patsy Ramsey born. And the reason

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Speaker 1: is in the early seventies, Patricia Hurst was kidnapped by

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Speaker 1: the Symbionese Liberation Army, yes, the SLA, and they kidnapped her,

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Speaker 1: they held her, and eventually, after long in a period

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Speaker 1: of time, she had started to go along with them.

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Speaker 1: She was on camera robbing a bank. Has the gun

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Speaker 1: in her hand, and they said she's full on participating

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Speaker 1: in the robbery. It was a big deal in the

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Speaker 1: early seventies, mid seventies. Well for Pats Ramsey being born

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six, she's going to be eighteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty years old when the whole Patricia thing's going on,

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Speaker 1: Patricia Hurst deal. So when I saw the note s

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Speaker 1: Victory SBTC, SLA Simboni's Liberation Army SBTC, so any in

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Speaker 1: my brain, I'm thinking, why is she right? OGNI she

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Speaker 1: But why is the kidnapper specifically writing to John and

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Speaker 1: not both of them? The Ramseys are a couple, this

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Speaker 1: is their child. She's singling out with John because in

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Speaker 1: my mind, she's writing, I'm and she's dead and gone now.

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Speaker 1: And I know that there are people who believe that whatever.

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Speaker 1: I don't buy the note, Joe, the ransom note is

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Speaker 1: too long, too specific. One hundred and eighteen thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: That was his bonus that year, which, my goodness, I've

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Speaker 1: never seen a bonus tempercent in my life.

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Speaker 2: And who has who has specific who has specific knowledge

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Speaker 2: of how much? Now I got to tell you, John

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Speaker 2: Ramsey does not strike me as somebody that would go

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Speaker 2: out to a bar, yeah, and sit there and say, Hey,

344
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Speaker 2: everybody drinks on me. I got one hundred and eighteen

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars bonus this year. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: He seems like the kund he's a business guy. Yeah,

347
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Speaker 2: all right, he seems like the kind of person he's

348
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Speaker 2: going to know more than he's revealing. And he's certainly

349
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Speaker 2: not going to tell you, you know, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: revealing how much money you got for bonuses? Right up

351
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Speaker 2: there were revealing your bathroom habits. It's just certain things

352
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Speaker 2: that you don't talk about, you know. And who would

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Speaker 2: have access to that information? Well, obviously those that are

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Speaker 2: within his very inner circle, and they hadn't been in

355
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Speaker 2: Boulder a long long time. Who in their inner circle

356
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Speaker 2: of friends would he have felt comfortable enough with with

357
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Speaker 2: sharing the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen

358
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Speaker 2: thousand dollars bonus. Well you step out of that circle

359
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: and you begin to think, well, who who might know

360
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 2: at work? Well, somebody's got to cut the check, right,

361
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Speaker 2: So who at work would know that that he got

362
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Speaker 2: one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus? And listen there's

363
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Speaker 2: jealous people at work. The Lord knows you've encountered them.

364
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 2: I've encountered and they wish you ill will would somebody

365
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Speaker 2: be willing to go to that length to do this

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Speaker 2: kind of horrible thing to this little kid because of

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Speaker 2: the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars?

368
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Speaker 2: Is that that is money the motivation? Because if money

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Speaker 2: is the motivation, why are you going to leave the

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Speaker 2: kidnapped subject in the house because there was never any

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Speaker 2: intention to collect money.

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Speaker 1: Right because the child is left behind dead. The reason

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Speaker 1: you would pay the ransom is so your child has

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Speaker 1: returned to you alive, but you've left the child dead

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Speaker 1: in the house. There's no reason for you really think

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Speaker 1: they're going to just run down to the bank and

377
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Speaker 1: get one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars out and give

378
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Speaker 1: it to you without checking the house, without looking around

379
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Speaker 1: the house. But on top of that, Joe, think about this,

380
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Speaker 1: who writes down this is actually in a note? A

381
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: lot of people don't catch on. Make sure that you

382
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you

383
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Speaker 1: get home, you will put the money in a brown

384
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: paper bag. Well, what bring it? Who actually thinks like

385
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: that to write that down in a note, bank's on

386
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: it big enough to put the money in. It's like,

387
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: this is so overly specific that you had the time

388
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: to write this out. If you're in a hurry. You

389
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: came to kidnap a child and you just accidentally killed her.

390
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: Now you're leaving her behind. Why are you bothering over

391
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: the note. The longer you're there, the more chances you

392
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: have to be caught the ransom. The reason for you

393
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 1: getting money is dead. Get out of the house. Now,

394
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: why are you leaving a note?

395
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Speaker 2: I don't understand how much space can one hundred and

396
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: eighteen thousand dollars take up if you're getting denominations of

397
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars bills. Yeah, I can't imagine it's going

398
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: to be. You know, it's not like you're walking, you know,

399
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: walking down the street like Scrooge McDuck and you've got

400
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: gold coins falling out of your wheelbarrow, your gold wheelbar

401
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: It's not like that. It's just the whole thing, you know,

402
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: kind of you know, stinks to high heaven. Yeah, but

403
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: then you you know, when you consider all of that.

404
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: I will call you between eight am and ten am tomorrow,

405
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: the delivery will be exhausting. I advise you to get

406
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: rest be rested, John, I mean Joe. Really it says

407
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: that in this note the delivery will be exhausting, so

408
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: I advise you to be rested. The whole thing just reeks,

409
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: and it's so long and so convoluted. This makes no sense.

410
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: And if who has the again I use the term

411
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: intestinal fortitude because you have to have nervous Still, let's

412
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: just let's just say, all right, for grins and giggles,

413
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: that we are a malevolent individual that shows up at

414
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: this house, okay, and you have the intestinal fortitude to

415
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 2: take a notepad that allegedly belonged in the house and

416
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: sit down where people sit down to consume breakfast. I

417
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: guess maybe in that location, and you sit there and

418
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: you take the time. You know, do this person show

419
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 2: up with their own pen or do they borrow this

420
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: as well? And they sit there and construct this note,

421
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 2: and then we'll take it off, and we're going to

422
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: take it and put it here on the tread of

423
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: the staircase immediately, you know, on the other side of

424
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: the wall here, who has that? That requires nerves of steel?

425
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: Because I don't care how big a house is. If

426
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: there's something going on within a house at night, I'll

427
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: give you for instance, my wife hears everything. I mean

428
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: she does. I don't wake up for thunder. You know,

429
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: why did you hear that storm last night? Hunt? No,

430
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 2: I didn't. Oh my god, I was up all night.

431
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 2: I started to wake you up. Well why didn't you?

432
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: I couldn't. You were asleep. I can get you to

433
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: wake up. You know, you know what I'm saying. You know,

434
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: I guess you know. You could say, well, yeah, they're

435
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: isolated in the house. They're bettering the master is upstairs.

436
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: They're not going to hear this. But it would take

437
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: nerves of still to sit down there and write this

438
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: note and then deposit this thing on the staircase, which

439
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: for me is is quite quite interesting, and just you know,

440
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: maybe we've beat this dead horse. I don't know, but

441
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 2: it's just the fact that the length of the thing

442
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: and the specificity of it, and then this kind of

443
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: drawn out narrative you know, that runs through it, identifying.

444
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: Your southern good sense.

445
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Come on, I know, I mean, what does that even mean?

446
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: I don't know.

447
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: Why does somebody put that in there?

448
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: I know it's it's it's bizarre. I mean, now, I

449
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: guess you could say they are aware that he has

450
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: recently relocated to Colorado, and they're they're trying to hone

451
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: in on that specific detail of his life. Maybe it's

452
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: an indication that they know about him, they know where

453
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: he comes from. Okay, maybe it's alluding to that. I

454
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: have no idea, but for me, uh, this individual that

455
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: wrote this first off had to have nerves of steel,

456
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: and then secondly, they also have to have pretty substantial

457
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: constitution as well, because they're going to go downstairs assuming

458
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: that the same person that wrote the note had something

459
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: to do with Jean Benet's death, which, of course I

460
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: believe that you're going to torture and yes, I will

461
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 2: use that term torture and murder by not only strangling, uh,

462
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: this child, but beating her to the point where her

463
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: skull fractures. Dave, and that's another point that that the

464
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: author of this article from Busfeed, you know, made a

465
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: point of that, you know, uh, that it was at

466
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: that point in time that they they realized because you know,

467
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: for the longest time they had just said that she

468
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: had been strangled. No one ever said anything about this insult.

469
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: The show, Yeah that she had sustained well, yeah, I knew.

470
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: Well it was famously it was famously brought about in

471
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: that the infamous CBS show, you know, because they did

472
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 2: these demonstrations doctor Werner Spitz, who and we we remember

473
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: we actually did a memoriam of episode of Bodybacks when,

474
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, because Verner Spitz died, him and him and

475
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: Cyril died pretty close to one another, and I talked

476
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: about it. Verner Spitz is he's one of the godfathers.

477
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: He preceded doctor Weck. He's even in an older generation.

478
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: And you know, he wrote the definitive text on on forensics,

479
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: on forensic pathology, and you know, they talked about the

480
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: utilization of potentially I think that their conclusion was a

481
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: flashlight or a cylindrical like object in order to generate

482
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: this kind of And what was really ghastly about that

483
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: show is that they were attempting to say that Joan

484
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: Manet's brother had something to do with this. And I

485
00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: think probably the most the most repugnant part of that

486
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: program was the fact that they brought in a nine

487
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: year old child, I know, to do the demonstration where

488
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: they had a mocked up skull and they and you

489
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: can go on line and see it, and it was

490
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: it was really in poor taste. As far as I'm concerned,

491
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: this is nothing I would ever want to involve myself in.

492
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: Where you know this, You've got this little boy, an actor,

493
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: I guess, that's raining down blows on this facsimile of

494
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: a skull that actually is in jail so that it

495
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: mimics tissue, and he's driving this thing down onto you know,

496
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: onto the the you know, the pretend body here.

497
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: It seems like something you would see on hard copy

498
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: in the late eighties, you know.

499
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was in really poor taste, very poor taste.

500
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: I can't you know, I can't imagine, you know, being

501
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: a parent and watching this thing and know what's what

502
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: they're they're angling toward towards this idea that the nine

503
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: year old brother did this, and of course they you know,

504
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: CBS wound up paying the piper for that, and you know,

505
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: I often thought, I often thought that this is just

506
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: my musing here. I really thought that maybe CBS was

507
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: going all in on this idea that the family had

508
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: something to do with this, and so they thought, yeah,

509
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: we're going to run the risk of getting sued if

510
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: they sue us, we're not going to settle, which they

511
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: wound up doing. We're not going to settle, and we're

512
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: going to wind up having depositions. And that's really the

513
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: way I had looked at this early on. Of course,

514
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: they wound up wound up settling, you know, this particular case,

515
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: and it was just the number was eye popping, you know,

516
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: just absolutely eye popping. And I don't know what they

517
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: eventually settled for. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his

518
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: body bags