1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. In late February, I 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: spoke with author Sarah Scoles. She is a freelance science 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: writer who is a contributing writer at Wired Science, a 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: contributing editor at Popular Science, and the author of two books, 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: Making Contact Jill Tarter and The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: and They Are Already Here UFO Culture and Why We 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: See Saucers. I talked to her just before the release 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: of They Are Already Here, an engaging, first person anthropological 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: look at the UFO community. I'm Toby Ball and this 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: is Strange Arrivals. My name is Sarah Schools. I'm a 12 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: science journalist, a contributor at Wired magazine, in Popular Science, 13 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: and I write about space. First of all, I love 14 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: the book Your interest. It seems to be not so 15 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: much with UFOs themselves, but with the people who are 16 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: interested in UFOs and the culture that surrounds UFOs. Can 17 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about your interests and how 18 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: that interest began. Sure, I had really never paid attention 19 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: to UFOs from most of my life until December sixteen, 20 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: and I read a story in the New York Times 21 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: that was about this Pentagon program that had been dedicated 22 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: to researching what they called unidentified aerial phenomena. And just 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: starting with that story, I tried to re report for 24 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: Wired magazine all the stuff that they had said about 25 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: this Pentagon program and just tried to prove it true 26 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: or false with my own reporting. And um, since I 27 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: was coming to UFOs totally fresh, I didn't actually have 28 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: any knowledge of my own and so I started to 29 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: try to seek out people who did have that and 30 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: who had been either you know, on the historical side 31 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: or on the personal side of UFOs for decades before 32 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: I came into it, and I didn't really know what 33 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: to expect. But I had a lot of ideas I 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: think about who was obsessed with UFOs and not not 35 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: all of those ideas were very flattering. Um. I think 36 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: I mostly thought it was just straight conspiracy theorists. But 37 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: what I actually found out when I started talking to 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: people was that, you know, there were lots of really smart, 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: dedicated researchers who had just found this cool mystery that 40 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: they were really interested in and that was really hard 41 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: to solve. And um, so that kind of got me 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: started wondering what it was about this particular mystery that 43 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: that was so compelling to them. And so then I 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: found so many answers that I had to write a 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: whole book because no one wants to publish an article 46 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: that long. So let's actually go back a second. You 47 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: you said that you your introduction to it was taking 48 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: a look at the program that that had been going 49 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: on in the Pentagon sort of under the radar, UH 50 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: for a number of years. Maybe you could talk a 51 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: little bit about I believe the guy who who ran 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: was his name was Luis Alisando, And it didn't seem 53 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: quite as straightforward from what you wrote as the story 54 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: that people might have heard. No, I don't think it 55 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: was a straightforward story at all. UM. So, the way 56 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: it was initially reported, the Pentagon was running this program 57 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, which UM involved 58 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: one contractor called Bigelow Aerospace researching sightings and reports of 59 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: UFOs and UM kind of doing research adjacent to that. 60 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: And it was this super secretive program, as they described it, 61 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: run by a man named Luis Alazando. And when the 62 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: story came out, the newspaper claimed released these two videos 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: that showed UFOs and they were official US government videos, 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: and this was kind of what led that that story 65 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: to really take off. UM and the program they said 66 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: ran from two thousand seven to two thousand twelve, but 67 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: that it kept going even after that, even further under 68 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: the radar, and you know, all of that is pretty 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: that's a pretty incredible set of claims. And as time 70 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: went on, from reporting I did, and also lots of 71 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: other people, the story wasn't quite as linear as that. 72 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: The Pentagon has said it didn't release those videos, they 73 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: were not authorized for release. It is said that this 74 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: man who was supposedly the director actually didn't work on 75 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: the program at all. It has said that this wasn't 76 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: a UFO program at all, and so it's kind of 77 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: just there are lots of statements that are in direct 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: contradiction to what was initially reported. But las Ando, I 79 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: think it's been on CNN and other places talking about 80 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: it as though it absolutely was a UFO program. Is 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: that right? Yeah? Yeah, Louis Alizondo talks a lot about 82 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: how it was a UFO program, and also he goes 83 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: even farther and says that the program investigated crafts that 84 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: UM he basically said they couldn't possibly have come from 85 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: this Earth because they couldn't link them to any particular country. 86 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: So i'mplaying not just like we were looking at UFOs 87 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: from Russia, from Russian military or something, but UFOs from 88 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: outer space is the implication. And he's gone off and 89 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: joined I don't know if this is the time to 90 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: talk about this. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. So 91 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: Luis Alizondo retired from the Pentagon Um and from this 92 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: program in October seen just before the news story came out, 93 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: and he joined up with a private company called to 94 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: the Stars Academy of Arts and Science, which is based sically. 95 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: What they actually do is make books and movies and music, 96 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: but what they say they want to do is research 97 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: UFOs and then eventually reverse engineer some kind of really 98 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: great spacecraft. And Louis Alizondo said that he left the 99 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: Pentagon and joined up with these people because officials in 100 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: the military weren't taking the threat of UFOs very seriously, 101 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: and so he had to leave the government and go 102 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: to the private sector to get anyone to listen to him. 103 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, the government says he never worked on the 104 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: program at all, So right, and to the Stars Academy. 105 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: That's Tom Delong's organization. Yeah. To the Stars Academy is 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: run by, um, the former frontman of Blink one two, 107 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: Tom DeLong. So he's and I want to get back 108 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: to Robert Bigelow in a second, but you you write 109 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: about both of them in the book and Tom DeLong. 110 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: It's an interesting character and it's funny because I feel 111 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: like people who aren't necessarily very interested in UFOs, one 112 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: of the things that people do know is that the 113 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: guy from Blink Win eighty two is into it. And 114 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: that's actually a response I've gotten to from people when 115 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: I've said, oh, I'm making this this podcast about UFOs, 116 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: were like, oh, what's Tom Long going to say? So, um, 117 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: so can you talk a little bit about him and 118 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: and sort of his interest in what he's been doing. Yeah. So, 119 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: Tom Delong's interest in UFOs seems to go way way 120 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: back to kind of the band's earlier days, and Um, 121 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: when I was working on the book, I tried to 122 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: go as far back as the Internet would let me 123 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: to read all these different magazine profiles of him in 124 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Blink Win eighty two from years and years ago, and 125 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: pretty early on they start talking about how Tom DeLong 126 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: used to sit in the back of the tour bus 127 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: reading these huge books about UFOs and conspiracy theories and 128 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: things like that, and you know he um. He wrote 129 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: a song called Aliens Exist, which is basically about having 130 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: an alien visit your bed room and abduct you and 131 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: no one believe you. Um. And then later on he 132 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: started going more public with the idea that like he 133 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: was holding some kind of alien secret UFO secret and 134 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: he was going to bring it public. I don't remember 135 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: exactly what what year it was, but I remember before 136 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: I was interested in UFOs at all, I read some 137 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: profile of him that that said, you know, I'm collaborating 138 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: with high level intelligence officials and working with defense contractors, 139 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to bring the alien truth to you. 140 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, Oh, that guy, that's that's interesting. 141 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great if Tom DeLong brought us aliens? Um? 142 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: But then then a couple of years later he brought 143 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: us some um complicated version of them, I guess, but um, 144 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: so he he went off. He he started this company 145 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: called to the Stars Academy of Arts and Science, and 146 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be some kind of UFO Disclosure Project 147 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: where they have access to data about UFOs and are 148 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: also going to collect it and kind of analyze it. 149 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: And he's brought you know, people from the actual Pentagon, 150 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: Louis Alizondo. There's another guy on their board called Chris Melon, 151 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: who was like a former high level intelligence officer. Like, 152 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: they've got they've got serious people, even though I don't 153 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: really understand why. The second I think person with a 154 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: lot of money, uh, in the last you know, decade 155 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: or so, Who's who's who's put a lot of money 156 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: into this was Robert Bigelow, who's another kind of interesting 157 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: character who bought the skin Walker Ranch, which has got 158 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: the coolest name of any place that I've ever heard. 159 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: Is completely intriguing just because of that. Can you talk 160 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: a little bit about him? Yeah, Robert Bigelow is a 161 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: very wealthy man who lives in Nevada, and he made 162 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of money, um in real estate and running 163 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: a hotel chain, and then he went in, you is 164 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: that money to pursue his real interest, which wasn't budget 165 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: hotels but was um aliens. You know, he's gone on 166 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: sixty minutes, I believe, and told the whole world that 167 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: he believes there's an alien presence here on Earth. So once, 168 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: once he had amassed his fortune, he thought, you know, 169 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to do research into UFOs and other 170 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: paranormal kinds of things. So since the since the nineties, 171 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: he's given millions of dollars to UFO researchers, just kind 172 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: of funding researchers to do kind of small individual projects. 173 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: And then I guess the thing he's best known for 174 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: is reading an article in a newspaper called the Desirette 175 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: News about a family who owned this ranch in Utah, 176 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: and they said there were all these paranormal happenings. They're 177 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: like a giant wolf that wouldn't die when you shot it, 178 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: and animal mutilations and seeing UFOs and just all kinds 179 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: of spooky things. And he thought, you know, I would 180 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: like to buy that terrible spooky place and see if 181 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: I can research all this stuff that's going on on 182 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: the property. So he did. He bought it. He moved 183 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: some scientists in and founded a an institute called the 184 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: National Institute for Discovery Science, where he was going to 185 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: try to investigate these things on this place that was 186 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: called skin Walker Ranch um and see if he could 187 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of the what they called the phenomena, 188 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: which is kind of the all encompassing term for all 189 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: these these weird paranormal things that they said was going on. 190 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: And so they bought cameras and sensors and hired scientists 191 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: and tried to catch paranormal activity as it was happening 192 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: in collect actual data on it um. But they never 193 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: actually really got any data that they could share. Um. 194 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: The you know, the sensors wouldn't work, the off that 195 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: was supposed to be happening, wouldn't show up when they 196 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: were looking, and they just kind of came away from 197 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: the whole experience with essentially what they started with, which 198 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: was a bunch of stories. A theme I think in 199 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: your book and we've already started talking about it is 200 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: this relationship between people who are interested in UFOs and 201 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: at least one faction of that group who really wants 202 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:30,359 Speaker 1: to try and prove scientifically, um that they exist there, 203 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: you know, that they're actually terrestrial um. And then there's 204 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: sort of this weird dynamic or relationship between them and 205 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: then the scientific establishment, which shows very little interest in it. 206 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: And you know, you get the sense that that that 207 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: the UFO people um feels though the scientific establishment is 208 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: almost working against them. Yeah, I think that mainstream science 209 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: doesn't really want a whole lot to do with uphology, 210 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: and that's very understandable because there really is no or 211 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: very little hard data to go on. Almost everything is 212 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: an eyewitness report and without you know, columns of numbers 213 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: and sensor data that you can take home and then analyze. 214 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: So there's really no systematic plan of investigation in the 215 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: way that scientists would normally want to have, And so 216 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty legitimate that the UFOs and UFO research 217 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: in their current form aren't part of mainstream science. But 218 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: I do think then uthologists are both kind of angry 219 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: that they're not a part of it and that they're 220 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: not taken seriously. But at the same time they say 221 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: traditional science actually isn't adequate to do research on what 222 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: we are dealing with because they're too narrow minded and 223 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: they don't take human testimony seriously or they don't have 224 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: the right tools. So then they kind of reject mainstream science. 225 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: But then also anytime a scientist actually does show interests 226 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: or like if somebody has a PhD and they're speaking 227 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: at a conference, you can tell that you folowgists actually 228 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: really revere science and what to emulate it. Even at 229 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: the same time they're like, you don't understand me, So 230 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's complicated both directions. I think strange 231 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: arrivals will return in a moment. Another tense relationship is 232 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: between the UFOL community and UH the US government in 233 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: the U S Military, And you make a you make 234 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: the point a couple of times in your book about 235 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: how there's a lot of suspicion within UFO community towards 236 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: the government, but that the government has, you know, in 237 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: many ways earned it over the years. Yeah, the government 238 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: hasn't really been honest or straightforward in most of its 239 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: dealings with UFOs or the UFO community UM, starting from 240 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: the very beginning. It's early Projects UM, in particular Project 241 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: Blue Book, which was their longest UFO investigation program that 242 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: went until nineteen sixty nine. Like a lot of the 243 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: point of it was not actually to figure out what 244 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: UFOs were and to solve UFO cases, but it was 245 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: too UM Essentially, this is what people say, UM cross 246 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: things off is known so that no one would have 247 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: to worry about them, like to to find to find 248 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: explanations for things, even if those explanations didn't quite fit, 249 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: so that people wouldn't panic that there was this kind 250 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: of unknown thing in the sky. UM. So there's that. UM. 251 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: You know, you have the canonical crashing roswell where something 252 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: crashed on a rancher's land UM in New Mexico. And 253 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: at first the official government press release said this was 254 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: a flying saucer, we got it, don't worry, um, And 255 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: then they said, just you know, just kidding, that was 256 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: a weather balloon. UM. And then decades later in the 257 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: nineties they said, just kidding, it was actually a nuclear 258 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: test detector experiment. There was also a CIA sponsored panel 259 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: called the Robertson Panel UM, and in their scientists and 260 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: military personnel were specifically looking at the effects that UFOs 261 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: and your UFO reports might have on people and chaos 262 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: and panic, and they essentially said, if we get too 263 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: many UFO reports, it might clog our intelligence channels and 264 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: it might cause you know, hysteria in the streets. So 265 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: what we need to do is essentially make propaganda to 266 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: tell people not to worry about UFOs. And so just 267 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: throughout history for decades and decades, you have these instances 268 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: of the government trying to manipulate public opinion and interpretation 269 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: of UFOs, but then also saying like we have no 270 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: interest in them and neither should you, And it just 271 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: it just leaves people feeling like they can't trust the 272 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: government on the topic, I think, and they're not wrong. 273 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: Another theme that seems a comp in uh in the 274 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: book is these people who kind of look at UFOs 275 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: ah rather than you know, sort of approaching it scientifically, 276 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: but serves you to have a more spiritual or religious 277 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: take on them, or or way of sort of conceiving 278 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: of them. And I was wondering if I could bring 279 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: up a few of those people and maybe have you 280 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: talk about them a look, because I thought it was 281 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: super interesting. And one of those one of those people 282 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: is Steven Greer, who was talking about close encounters of 283 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: the Fifth kind. Yeah, Stephen Greer has kind of a 284 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: whole empire around him. He has made a name for 285 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: himself with the specific kind of contact with aliens called 286 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: close encounters of the Fifth kind Um, which is essentially 287 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: a kind of contact with aliens and UFOs that you, 288 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: as a human being on earth, try to initiate, like 289 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: you kind of send your intention and receptive nous too, 290 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: that experience out into the universe somehow, and then the 291 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: phenomenon is supposed to sense that and and appear to you. 292 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: And so he leads these retreats where he tries to 293 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: teach people to do this and it involves UM a 294 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: lot of meditation and um, yeah, projecting your intentions. And 295 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't like it. A lot of 296 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: people think of it UM as kind of snake oil, 297 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: but a lot of people, um it really resonates with 298 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: I think because it is a kind of spiritual experience, 299 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: and it also is something that you can participate in, 300 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: Like you're not just a passive observer of these supposed 301 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: UFOs and or aliens. You are connecting your brain with 302 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: them somehow, And I think that appeals to people. It's 303 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: sort of seemed to me a little bit like the 304 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: Secret but for extraterrestrials it's sort of you know, envisioned 305 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: it and it and it might happen, or it's more 306 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: likely to happen. Definitely. It's like your UFO vision board. Yeah, exactly. 307 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: Another person that you talked to who sort of falls 308 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: into that spiritual realm is UM a guy named Garrett 309 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. Garrett for sure was actually a kind 310 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: of famous radio astronomer who did really conventional, you know, 311 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: physics and astronomy work using radio telescopes and then UM 312 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: at some point when the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence UM, 313 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: which is a kind of more conventional look for broadcasts 314 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: from alien civilizations, when that kind of research was getting started. 315 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: At first he did a little bit of it himself, 316 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: using radio telescopes to look for these messages from aliens. 317 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: And then as time went by and he started to 318 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: hear more of the talk from his fellow astronomers, he 319 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: started to doubt UM their methods a little more, and 320 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: he thought that there was basically no chance that they 321 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: were going to find aliens. And so he made kind 322 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: of a joke conference talk where he said, instead of 323 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: giving these people a billion dollars to make a telescope, 324 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: what if you gave me some money and I just 325 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: sat on top of a mountain and thought about aliens 326 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: and that he said, it had basically the same chance 327 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: of success as what they were doing, and it would 328 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: cost essentially no money. But but then he started I 329 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: don't know exactly why he went down this path, but 330 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: then he started to kind of take that idea seriously. 331 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: He he read a book by a scientist named John 332 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: Lily who was doing some work on trying to communicate 333 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: with dolphins, and he read about sensory deprivation tanks where 334 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 1: you could go in a place that's totally dark and 335 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: totally quiet and you're floating. Um. And this guy, John Lily, 336 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: had thought that he had communicated with some kind of 337 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: being outside of himself, and so Garrett, for sure, I 338 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: thought that he would try the same thing. Um. And 339 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: so he spent a bunch of time going in these 340 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: sensory deprivation tanks, and what he heard seemed to him 341 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: like the voices of aliens, like his joke experiment was 342 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: actually working um. And then to eventually he came to 343 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: the conclusion that what he was hearing was his own 344 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: unconscious mind and like the collective unconscious mind of of humanity, 345 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: which sounds out there in a different way from from UFOs. 346 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: But that was kind of his his research journey, which 347 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: is a little like a like a seventies New Age 348 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: spiritual type of journey. So he kind of came to 349 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 1: this sort of young Gian view of what he was 350 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: experiencing was that it was, and you mentioned it in 351 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: the book Experiencing the Collective Unconscious in some way that's 352 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: more manifest than you would get otherwise. Yeah, he kind 353 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: of thought, he, yeah, he could like tap into the 354 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, the the ideas and archetypes of the collective 355 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: unconscious when he was totally removed from all other sensations, 356 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: and that the way that that manifested itself was this 357 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: alien inside of his brain essentially. Huh. You mentioned that 358 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: that he had worked with set to begin with, and 359 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting the way, and I 360 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: can't I can't remember if you characterize it or he 361 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: characterized the sort of attitude that a lot of the 362 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: people involved in SETI now have towards the possible benefits 363 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: of making contact with extraterrestrial civilizations. Yeah. He came up 364 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: with the term the salvation school of SET, which was 365 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: that when SETI scientists were trying to justify all this 366 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: money they wanted to spend looking for aliens that might 367 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: not be there, they would say, this is worth our 368 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: time because this is a really big question. Are we 369 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: alone in the universe. It's an almost religious question, but 370 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: we can investigate it scientifically, and because if we are successful, 371 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: then that will mean peace on Earth because everyone will 372 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: be united as Earthlings because we're all so much more 373 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: like each other than we are like the alien who 374 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: we can't identify. And they also say that if if 375 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: we make contact with an alien civilization, it will be 376 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 1: much much older than us, and so it would be 377 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: more technologically advanced, and so it would have gone through 378 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: some kind of what they call it technological adolescence, which 379 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: is basically where we are right now, where like at 380 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: any given time we might blow ourselves up with nuclear bombs, 381 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: or have so much climate change we don't survive, or 382 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: things like that. And they say, the aliens who have 383 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: survived that can teach us that it's possible to survive 384 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: that and maybe how. And Garrett Verscher kind of looked 385 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: at all of that and saw it as very religious, 386 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: where instead of having a god that's going to, you know, 387 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: tell you the right way to live your life and 388 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: save you from all your troubles, it's this great alien 389 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: society and that that's really kind of a Cold War 390 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: type of type of logic, it feels like to me. 391 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: And also there's actually like we don't actually know how 392 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: anyone would react if we found aliens that might have 393 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: no effect on the world. Maybe there will be piece. 394 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: Maybe we'd all run out in the streets rioting. Nobody 395 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: can actually know that for sure. In my opinion, I 396 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: just thought it was it was really interesting because it's 397 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: it does and you mentioned the Cold War. It it 398 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: does kind of hearken back to, you know, the contact 399 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: ease of the nineteen fifties that we talked a little 400 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: bit about in the podcast at the very beginning with 401 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: George Adamski who said he was visited by this beautiful 402 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: person from Venus, who said, we're keeping eye on you 403 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: were really advanced, and we want you to be spiritually 404 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: better and more peaceful, and we're worried that you're gonna 405 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: destroy each other and all this, and it was clear 406 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: that he was making up this whole story, but it 407 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: was the same idea that these sort of advanced extra 408 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: rationals are have these lessons to teach us about how 409 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: to live together and live peacefully and be respectful of 410 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: the planet and all that stuff. And to um had 411 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: that kind of your today, Well, I thought was it 412 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: was pretty interesting. Definitely, Yeah. I mean it's not very 413 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: different from Jesus getting born and saying like be nice 414 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: to each other. You spend a lot of time in 415 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: the book and in real life sort of going to 416 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: visit these places where UFO people gather. So you go 417 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: to Roswell, you go to a Buffon conference, you go 418 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: it's close to Area fifty one, is you can get 419 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: you go to the was it the Alien watch Tower? 420 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: And I was wondering, do you have any thoughts about 421 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: the fact that these sort of institutions exist and people 422 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: come to them, and what sort of that cultural significance is. Yeah, 423 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: I think the sites like that are almost if if 424 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: we're continuing the spiritual train of thought, there are a 425 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: little like pilgrimage points where they're like important points in 426 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: this particular subculture that people can come visit and um 427 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: maybe how a meaningful experience while they're there, and then 428 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: most importantly interact with other people who kind of understand 429 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: where they're coming from, which I think was the biggest 430 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: common factor between move On meetings, the UFO Watchtower and 431 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: UM Roswell. I guess um, I didn't really see very 432 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: many people at Area fifty one, But if you if 433 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: you go to a place that is known for UFOs 434 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: or aliens, um you know that the other people around 435 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: you kind of have that same interest at some level, 436 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: whether they're serious like you, or if they just have 437 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: a casual interest, like they're probably not going to just 438 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: make fun of you or tell you you're crazy, and 439 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: so I kind of feel like people go there and 440 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: like pay homage to this interest, have a little fun, 441 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: and then also can maybe speak more freely with each 442 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: other than they can in real life. At least that 443 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: was what I noticed when I was there. Well, it's great. 444 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: Do you have any last thoughts or things you wanted 445 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: to convey that you learned that you thought were particularly 446 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about. Let's see. I think so. 447 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: There's a thing a historian named Greg Gigan who's at 448 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: Penn State told me when I was very first getting 449 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 1: into the subject, which was that when UFO belief in 450 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: the general population gets like stronger, people more interested than 451 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: they used to be, it's usually when other stuff isn't 452 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: going well, which we could argue it's not in the 453 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: world right now, like things are pretty precarious. There might 454 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: be a global pandemic, people are afraid of nuclear war, 455 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: and so when all that is going on, if you 456 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: have this other like powerful thing to turn to and 457 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: be interested in. A it's distracting and you can kind 458 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: of project your fears onto it, or if you're going 459 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: the other direction, you can think, like the study people 460 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: like maybe that's something that will save me. And it's 461 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: just interesting to kind of have looked in the past 462 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: and seeing that wave go up and down, and then 463 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: to see it kind of rise up again just in 464 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: the past few years. I hope you enjoyed this week's interview. 465 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: Next week, on a second bonus episode of Strange Arrivals, 466 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: I talked with Stephanie Kelly Romano, an associate professor of Rhetoric, 467 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: Film and Screen Studies at Bates College. She has gathered 468 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: narratives from over three people who believe they were abducted 469 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: by aliens, and has written on how these stories helped 470 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: make sense of issues of race, control, rights, and identity. 471 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: In terms of an example, for raise, I think that 472 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: just the fact that experiencers talk about a multiplicity of 473 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: types of aliens and that the aliens have different characteristics. So, 474 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: for example, the little gray aliens that are so popular 475 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: in pop culture are oftentimes those beings that are worker beings. 476 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: They don't necessarily have personality they're not particularly developed, are 477 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: advanced in a lot of ways. Technologically, certainly they are, 478 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: but they're very focused on conducting experiments or doing that 479 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: kind of thing, whereas people also talk about Nordic aliens, 480 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: and Nordic aliens have a tendency to be more human looking, 481 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: and they are characteristically Caucasian and blonde, and those aliens 482 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: are the ones that are compassionate. Those aliens are the 483 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: ones that are kind. There have been a bunch of 484 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: different studies or a couple articles anyway, that talk about 485 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: gray aliens as being kind of the combination of black 486 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: and white, right, and so this ambiguous racialized mixture, But 487 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: also the fact that the advanced aliens of Caucasian I mean, 488 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: coupled with ancient alien theories, which are inherently racist in 489 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: some ways, race is clearly underneath it all. The fact 490 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: that any non westernized, non colonized society couldn't have made 491 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: whatever it is, the Pyramids and Nascal lines, whatever, and 492 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: they needed to have help from extraterrestrials, but westernized Caucasian 493 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: societies didn't is a little questionable. Strange Arrivals is a 494 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and grim and mild from 495 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. This episode was written and hosted by Toby 496 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 1: Boll and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with 497 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick and Aaron Manky. Betty 498 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: Hill was portrayed by Gina Rickike. Barney Hill was portrayed 499 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: by Jason Williams. Special thanks to the Milms Special Collections 500 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: and Archives at the University of New Hampshire, John Horrigan, 501 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: w y A M in Norwich, Connecticut, John White, and 502 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: David O'Leary, the executive producer of the History Channel's dramatic 503 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: series Project blue Book. Learn more about a show over 504 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: at Grimm and Mile dot com. For more podcasts from 505 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 506 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.