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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to the second of our two part series

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Speaker 1: focused on the twenty twenty five World Happiness Report. In

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Speaker 1: the last episode, we talked about the decline of shared meals,

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Speaker 1: but in this episode we'll turn to a chapter that

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Speaker 1: focuses on a different decline. In it, the French economists

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Speaker 1: jan Algin Current Blank and Claudia Senic look at the

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Speaker 1: changes in social trust, particularly the decreases in trust that

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Speaker 1: so many of us have observed post pandemic. The economists

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Speaker 1: find that there's been a huge reduction in social trust globally,

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Speaker 1: and they argue that these changes in trust have led

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Speaker 1: not just to a big hit on our collective happiness,

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Speaker 1: but also to increases in what they call anti system thinking,

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Speaker 1: with people rejecting traditional political parties and turning to populism.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to understand how to make sense of these

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Speaker 1: findings and the implications they're having for well being worldwide.

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Speaker 1: So to help me out, I decided to turn to

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Speaker 1: one of my feet for experts on the science of trust.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, my name is Rachel Batsman. I've been studying

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Speaker 2: trust well for over fifteen years now. The latest book

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Speaker 2: is called How to Trust and Be Trusted? Intentionally a

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Speaker 2: two way title, because that's how trust works. We trust

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Speaker 2: other people and then we want others to trust us

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Speaker 2: as well. And you can get it on audible or

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Speaker 2: Spotify or pushkin FM. People tell me that it's really

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Speaker 2: changed the way they trust others and others trust them,

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Speaker 2: and that was the reason for making it.

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Speaker 1: And so as a trust expert, I'm curious your reaction

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Speaker 1: to the fact that there's an entire chapter of the

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Speaker 1: World Happiness Report devoted to trust. I mean, is that

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Speaker 1: something you think is long over too? Is that something

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Speaker 1: you were surprised by.

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised it's taken so long to make that connection,

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Speaker 2: if I'm honest, because I mean, I've always struggled with

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Speaker 2: the word happiness, but satisfaction and joy is very much

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Speaker 2: tied to social trust. So not just the people we

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Speaker 2: have in our lives, but how much we can trust

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Speaker 2: ourselves to take risks and explore new things, how much

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Speaker 2: we can take risks and new relationships, how much confidence

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Speaker 2: we can place in systems and society. So yeah, there's

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Speaker 2: a very strong correlation there. So it's it's not a surprise,

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Speaker 2: but surprise it took so long.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you read the report. Was there anything

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Speaker 1: particular that you've found especially straightly, I.

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Speaker 2: Found it very alarming. Looking at the it's not even

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Speaker 2: a decline, It like falls off the cliff in interpersonal trust.

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Speaker 2: So that's the trust in families, friends, co workers, people

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Speaker 2: close to us, the Marcus twenty twenty. So you think, hmm,

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Speaker 2: that's the pandemic, but there's no recovery from it. I

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Speaker 2: could understand if it was social trust, like trust and

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Speaker 2: strangers and other people, but the fact that there's no

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Speaker 2: repair in that close circle. And for me, this ties

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Speaker 2: into what I think is a huge societal problem that's

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Speaker 2: not getting enough attention. And it's not just loneliness. It's

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Speaker 2: that people are spending more time alone and at home

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Speaker 2: than ever before. Yes, a worry about loneliness as an epidemic,

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Speaker 2: but I feel the rise of the anti social society.

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Speaker 2: Our ability to be with other people, even people close

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Speaker 2: to us, and want to go out and connect with people.

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Speaker 2: That was what I found the most alarming in the report.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start by defining trust. You've had a kind

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Speaker 1: of curious definition of it, one that I haven't seen.

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Speaker 1: This idea of this confident relationship with the unknown. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so a confident relationship with the unknown describes

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Speaker 2: the need or the existence for trust. So if you

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Speaker 2: know the outcome of something, or if you know how

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Speaker 2: something's going to turn out, or there's very little risk

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Speaker 2: in a situation, you don't actually need a lot of trust.

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Speaker 2: It's in those situations where there is a really high

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Speaker 2: unknown or there is a lot of uncertainty where you

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Speaker 2: need the most trust. And that's why there's such a

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Speaker 2: strong tie between trust and uncertainty, which is the flip

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Speaker 2: of how many people think about trust. So I ask

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Speaker 2: many people to define trust, and the answers you get

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Speaker 2: back are typically around stability and expectations, things like reliability,

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Speaker 2: which I find really interesting that we're so wired on

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Speaker 2: that sort of solid side of the spectrum and that's

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Speaker 2: what we attached trust to, versus trust is needed in

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Speaker 2: those unknown situations.

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Speaker 1: It's also needed across all kinds of different contexts, and

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Speaker 1: I think this is something you've so nicely pointed out

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Speaker 1: in your work. Give me an example of the different

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Speaker 1: domains in which we see trust and where trust seems

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Speaker 1: to matter.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that really frustrates me is when

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Speaker 2: you hear these very generalized ways of talking about trust. Oh,

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Speaker 2: trust is in a state of total decline. That's the

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Speaker 2: media headline, and it's really not helpful. It's not helpful

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Speaker 2: for our own states, it's not helpful for society or

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Speaker 2: any system. Because I think of trust in different circles.

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Speaker 2: So I'll give you a couple because they might ring true.

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Speaker 2: The first is sort of more academic. You can think

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Speaker 2: of institutional trust, So that's trust you place in institutions,

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Speaker 2: the legal system, healthcare, education, government, whatever it might be.

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Speaker 2: That's trust. An institutions, that's trust, and an entity. Then

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Speaker 2: you have what we call interpersonal trust. This is the

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Speaker 2: trust that really impacts us day in day out. It's

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Speaker 2: our family, it's our friends, it's our close circle, our coworkers,

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Speaker 2: and those bonds are really really important. They're the ones

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Speaker 2: I'm actually most worried about. And then more broadly, we

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Speaker 2: have social trust, and that is the trust that we

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Speaker 2: can place in strangers, that people we don't know, our

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Speaker 2: belief in things like integrity and moral good. So they're

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Speaker 2: the sort of three academic ways of framing trust. Another

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Speaker 2: way of framing trust is to think of trust in

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Speaker 2: yourself trust in others. And then the trust they placed

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Speaker 2: in you. So that's more of like concentric circle approach,

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Speaker 2: and trust issues can arise in any three of those circles.

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Speaker 2: So some people find it very difficult to trust themselves,

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Speaker 2: but can trust others easily. Others find that people naturally

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Speaker 2: trust them for some reason, but they don't necessarily trust

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Speaker 2: other people. So I find those circles really interesting to

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Speaker 2: think about.

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Speaker 1: They seem to be so important for happiness, but also

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Speaker 1: really dynamic, right, you know, if you don't trust yourself,

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Speaker 1: then what's that going to lead other people to think

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Speaker 1: of you? And things like that? I mean, it must

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Speaker 1: be really complicated to kind of get at some of

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Speaker 1: these dynamics.

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Speaker 2: And constantly evolving. So trust is not like this fixed asset.

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Speaker 2: I don't like it when people talk about banking trust,

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Speaker 2: you know, like it's a reservoir. They change with age,

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Speaker 2: they change with experience, they change with environment, and most importantly,

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Speaker 2: they change with context. Trust is so so contextual, and

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Speaker 2: this is the part that we often miss.

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Speaker 1: And so it seems like trust in all these different

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Speaker 1: dimensions is super important for our happiness. But it seems

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Speaker 1: like there's also two problems that we could have with trust, right,

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Speaker 1: One is the idea of being too trusting and then

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Speaker 1: you know, you kind of get let down by the

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Speaker 1: people around you, maybe even by yourself.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: The second is this idea of being not trusting enough, right,

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Speaker 1: kind of not realizing that other people actually have your

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Speaker 1: back end. The uncertainty is not as scary as you think.

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Speaker 1: And so I wanted to go through each of these

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Speaker 1: in turn, maybe starting with this idea of being too trusting,

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Speaker 1: and partly because my understanding is that this is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons you get interested in trust in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Share with me this story of what happened

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Speaker 1: in your childhood where folks in your world were maybe

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Speaker 1: too trusting. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't think people often think of it as a problem,

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Speaker 2: but it is. And the interesting thing there is actually

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Speaker 2: a high correlation between people who are very trusting and

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Speaker 2: that consider themselves emotionally intelligent and intuitive. And the reason

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Speaker 2: why is you are told that you are very good

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Speaker 2: at reading people, that you can pick up on signals.

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Speaker 2: So if you're someone that says, all, I have very

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Speaker 2: strong intuition about people, and that's something I felt from

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Speaker 2: a really young age. And the story of telling the book,

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Speaker 2: I guess everyone has an origin story, and mine is

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Speaker 2: around a nanny that turned out to be a drug

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Speaker 2: dealer that used our famili's car, a Volvo nonetheless a

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Speaker 2: get away car, and an armed robbery.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, it's like a very like true

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Speaker 1: crime trust origin story.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's crazy about the story is that she

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Speaker 2: lived with us for a year. It wasn't like she

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Speaker 2: moved in and she did this in eight weeks. And

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Speaker 2: she was this incredible nanny. Like my memories of her

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Speaker 2: were that she played with us, she was very attentive,

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Speaker 2: she was a really good cook, she was very peaceful.

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Speaker 2: But she had a complete other life that my parents

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Speaker 2: discovered over time.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sure that looking back, there must have been

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Speaker 1: some red flags about this nanny that you maybe sort

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Speaker 1: of questioned the extent to which she would have trusted her.

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Speaker 1: As you look back, what are some red flags in

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Speaker 1: this situation that you've kind of generalized to other situations

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Speaker 1: which we might wonder whether we're trusting somebody to us.

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Speaker 2: I think there's the red flags as a child, But

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Speaker 2: now my parents have told the story, they realized that

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Speaker 2: when they hired her, they're both entrepreneurs and they were

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Speaker 2: in a very intense time of building their companies and

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Speaker 2: traveling a lot, So making trust decisions when you're under

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Speaker 2: pressure is high stakes. Trust decisions like who to leave

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Speaker 2: your children with often leads to bad decision making because

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Speaker 2: you want to believe that person. So that's the first lesson, and.

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Speaker 1: That one I have to say is like so important, right,

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's so many situa in which just

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Speaker 1: like the convenience of being able to trust somebody, just

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Speaker 1: like you're like, I can't even question this right now

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Speaker 1: because I just like have to make this work, So

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to assume everything's going to be fine.

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Speaker 1: You could totally see how that plays out in so

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Speaker 1: many different domains.

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Speaker 2: Most hires at work right, like, it's just left too late,

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Speaker 2: and convenience no pun intended, often trumps trust, so will

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Speaker 2: often give our trust away if it is convenient. That

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Speaker 2: is a real life lesson. The second thing is I

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Speaker 2: think the way when I asked them, like, because there

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Speaker 2: was no email, there was no video calling, there was

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Speaker 2: no social networks at the time, you know, why did

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Speaker 2: you believe this person? And they said it was things

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Speaker 2: like she had a Scottish accent, and she said that

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Speaker 2: she even came to work wearing a Salvation Army uniform

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Speaker 2: because she said she really liked helping people and that

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Speaker 2: she played the piano and the tambourine. So it's all

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Speaker 2: these stereotypes of who is trustworthy. Accents are a really

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Speaker 2: big influence on that. So that's been a life lesson

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Speaker 2: in when I'm meeting someone, what signals am I tuning into?

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Speaker 2: And so many signals really play to our biases, so

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Speaker 2: we will look for people that are familiar or fit

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Speaker 2: that kind of stereotype. So that's number two. Number three

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Speaker 2: is listened to your children because I knew they were

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Speaker 2: being lied to and I notice things going missing around

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Speaker 2: the house. I noticed on Wednesdays we'd go to this

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Speaker 2: strange flat and there was this strange man, and there

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Speaker 2: was something that just didn't add up. And I would

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Speaker 2: say to Mom, these people come round and they talk

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Speaker 2: about strange things, and I would get told off not

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Speaker 2: to make things up. So trust children because they are

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Speaker 2: really observant and they often don't have an agenda in

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Speaker 2: the same way that adults do. So I'd listened to

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Speaker 2: that feedback more.

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Speaker 1: It also seems like you just need to perspective, take

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Speaker 1: a little bit, like get a really outside perspective, a

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Speaker 1: bit of a distance perspective. Sometimes you can be that

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Speaker 1: can be your child. But I bet sometimes that can

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Speaker 1: just be like another person who might not be in

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Speaker 1: the tight situation you are might not have noticed like

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Speaker 1: the same things that you're noticing about how cool this

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Speaker 1: person is in this salvation army you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: uniform they're wearing and so on. It seems like we

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Speaker 1: often get into trouble when we trust our gut and

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Speaker 1: don't take outside input when it comes to trust. Does

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Speaker 1: the research bear that out totally?

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Speaker 2: I mean, they say trust has two enemies, bad character

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Speaker 2: and poor information, And it's when we either don't slow

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Speaker 2: down to get enough information or as you say, Laurie,

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Speaker 2: like we don't get a different perspective. And I'm sure

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Speaker 2: one of mom's friends, like when she said that she

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Speaker 2: just found all this money under a tree in a park,

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Speaker 2: like the money tree, that someone would have said, I

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Speaker 2: think those exist.

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Speaker 1: That sounds sketchy, It sounds a little sketchy. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So let's walk through the things that really maybe are

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Speaker 1: good indicators of trust, like these sort of so called

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Speaker 1: traits of trustworthiness. As you talk about them, can you

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Speaker 1: break these down for us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so, and I'm gonna say I think some of

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Speaker 2: them need updating. So this is based on social science

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Speaker 2: that now has been tracking traits for forty years, and

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Speaker 2: these traits are changing, which I think is really interesting.

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Speaker 2: The capability side, so you have imagined your parts. You

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Speaker 2: have capability, which is really about what you do, and

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Speaker 2: then you have character, which is why you do things,

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Speaker 2: but really importantly how you do things. So how would

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Speaker 2: you describe, Laurie what you do.

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Speaker 1: I would say that I'm a podcaster. I'm a teacher,

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Speaker 1: you know, I try to be really there for my students.

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Speaker 1: I try to use evidence in a really capable way,

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Speaker 1: Like I have lots of things that make me capable,

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Speaker 1: but also maybe I'm like a warm person, right, I

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Speaker 1: want to take care of my students and help my

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Speaker 1: listeners and so on.

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Speaker 2: So they you're talking about capability and character. So the capability,

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Speaker 2: if you imagine, is your competence. So you have the skills,

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Speaker 2: you have the expertise, you have the knowledge, you have

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Speaker 2: the resources, you have YEO, as an institution, you have

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Speaker 2: all these things that allow you to do what you

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Speaker 2: say you're going to do. So you're really credible on

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Speaker 2: those things, but maybe there's some other things. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: What's something you completely can't do?

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Speaker 1: Terrible have I god so many things. Driving I can't

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Speaker 1: drive by that. Biking, biking, I'm really bad by I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to bike. Most physical things are very clumsy,

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Speaker 1: fall lot, skiing not great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that actually makes you more trustworthy because you can

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Speaker 2: be honest about things that you do and then you're

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Speaker 2: really comfortable with saying don't ever get in a car

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Speaker 2: with me or don't ride with me. So that's your confidence.

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Speaker 2: What you're talking about with you with your students, wanting

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Speaker 2: to be there for them consistently. I'd imagine that you're

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Speaker 2: this person that likes them to know that they can

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Speaker 2: depend on you. That's the reliability trait, and that is

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Speaker 2: really really important when it comes to trust. So you

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Speaker 2: know those like really inconsistent people that are high energy

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Speaker 2: and they show up sometimes and then they completely disappear.

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Speaker 2: There's no follow through. So that's it's on the capability side.

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Speaker 2: And then on the character side, we have empathy, which

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Speaker 2: you spoke about. I prefer the word compassion. You know,

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Speaker 2: empathy doesn't really talk about the action side, the follow through.

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Speaker 2: And then The last trait, which I think is the

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Speaker 2: most important trait, is integrity. And that's all about your

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Speaker 2: interest being aligned with the best interests of other people.

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Speaker 2: So you the professor, your interests are aligned with the

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Speaker 2: interest the students, You the host. The audience feels that

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Speaker 2: this is self serving, that you are there to be

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Speaker 2: generous and to care about them and their learning. So

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Speaker 2: that's what we talk about when we talk about trustworthiness.

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Speaker 1: And I imagine that in these different domains of trust

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Speaker 1: the importance of say, capability, this kind of combination of

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Speaker 1: competence and reliability versus character, this combination of compassionate integrity

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Speaker 1: that might go up and down depending on what you need,

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Speaker 1: right Like, I might not need a surgeon filled with

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Speaker 1: a lot of character. I just really want him to

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Speaker 1: be very competent and capable. But a best friend, I right, really,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't necessarily care that my best friend

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Speaker 1: does it her job, but I really want her to

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Speaker 1: be really empathic when it comes to, you know, helping

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Speaker 1: me with my problems and so on.

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Speaker 2: It's a really important comes back to context, and it's

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Speaker 2: such an important point because I don't know if you've heard.

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Speaker 2: Actually my dad said it the other day he's having

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Speaker 2: some dot to his hip and he's I really don't

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Speaker 2: feel like the surgeon cares. I was like, yeah, but

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Speaker 2: he's a great surgeon, right, Like he's going to fix

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Speaker 2: the hit. And I think that has become an expectation

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Speaker 2: on sort of a feeling led society, is that sometimes

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Speaker 2: we can place too much emphasis on compassion and empathy

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Speaker 2: and that person can seem incredibly kind but not capable.

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Speaker 2: So this is why I think this alchemy of traits

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Speaker 2: and thinking about the particular situation is it's almost like

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Speaker 2: a compass for making really good decisions about people.

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Speaker 1: And so if you're a person who's maybe meeting a

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Speaker 1: new surgeon for the first time, or a new business

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Speaker 1: partner or a new love interest, and you really want

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Speaker 1: to kind of make sure you're trusting appropriately, what are

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Speaker 1: some strategies you'd use to do that well.

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Speaker 2: I think the business situation is probably the easiest, and

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Speaker 2: it's also where most people go wrong, because most people

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Speaker 2: start with the competence piece. If you think about most

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Speaker 2: job interviews or promotional interviews like so tell me what

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Speaker 2: you've done, tell me about your experience, Like they are

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Speaker 2: the easiest things to get from a resume or a

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Speaker 2: reference to check, and the number of interviews that don't

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Speaker 2: get to the why and the how. The how is

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Speaker 2: really interesting, like how people approach things, how they break

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Speaker 2: down problems, how they are in difficult conversations. So I

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Speaker 2: would like focus questions around that. The second thing that

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Speaker 2: I would do is really try to understand someone's interests, intentions,

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Speaker 2: and motives, not like why do you want the job?

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Speaker 2: But where are they really coming from? And again asking

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Speaker 2: yourself this question of does that align with the role,

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Speaker 2: does that align with the organization, Because it's when you

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Speaker 2: have that misalignment in a professional or a personal context

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Speaker 2: that trust issues can arise. So you can even think

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Speaker 2: of a bit uncomfortable saying this, but like in dating situations,

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Speaker 2: like if someone really doesn't want children and the other

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Speaker 2: person wants children, right, there's a misalignment there. If someone

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Speaker 2: doesn't want a long term relationship, if someone doesn't want

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Speaker 2: a monogamous relationship, someone doesn't want to live with you,

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Speaker 2: it's that misalignment that really is the problem. Now, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to get there on the first date, you'll

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Speaker 2: probably scarce someone away, but over time, if you feel

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Speaker 2: like there's trust issues emerging, there's probably some unsaid conversation

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Speaker 2: around I want this one thing and you want this

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Speaker 2: other thing, and we're both too scared to say it.

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Speaker 1: And then how do we overcome the kind of biases

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Speaker 1: that we talked about earlier. Is there anything we can

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Speaker 1: do to kind of get that perspective maybe not fall

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Speaker 1: for a familiarity and some of the other biases we

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Speaker 1: talked about.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard. I mean, if someone can come up

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Speaker 2: with the solution around that, then tell me. But I

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Speaker 2: think it. I mean, it's really obvious advice. It's becoming

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Speaker 2: aware of what those biases are for you. What does

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Speaker 2: familiarity look like? What are the signals? And that's different

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Speaker 2: for different people. So some people are very influenced by

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Speaker 2: looks and appearance. Other people are really influenced by cultural

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Speaker 2: background and accents. Other people are really influenced by education.

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Speaker 2: Away of sort of tuning into this is when you

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Speaker 2: meet people for the first time, where do you sort

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Speaker 2: of focus. Do you notice what someone's wearing, do you

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Speaker 2: notice what they're saying? Where does the conversation orientate itself

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Speaker 2: as well? Like, these are really powerful signals as to

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Speaker 2: what is important to you. That maybe where your biases

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Speaker 2: are rooted.

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Speaker 1: You've also suggested doing something that we talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot on the Happiness Lab, which is like, take a pause,

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Speaker 1: take a breath. How can take what you've called the

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Speaker 1: trust pause be helpful here?

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Speaker 2: So a trust pause it's something I invented for myself.

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Speaker 1: All researchers research, right.

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Speaker 2: I tend to move quickly, do things quickly, think quickly,

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Speaker 2: speak quickly, and I just realized there were certain situations

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Speaker 2: where slowing down and really asking myself, you know, was

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Speaker 2: this person, this piece of information, this situation, this partnership,

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Speaker 2: did they actually deserve my trust? And it's really placing

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Speaker 2: value on your trust that you have trust to give

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Speaker 2: and you don't have to give it to everyone. I

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Speaker 2: found that to be quite empowering because in certain situations

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Speaker 2: you go, you know what, I'm gonna just hold back

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Speaker 2: a little bit. Or it's not like a self protection mechanism.

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Speaker 2: It's just saying I don't think I want to give

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Speaker 2: you my trust at this particular moment. And you can

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Speaker 2: think about that even in the context of online information, right,

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Speaker 2: like when you just share something without reading it that

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Speaker 2: would benefit from a trust pause.

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Speaker 1: So far, we've talked about cases where we trust a

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Speaker 1: little bit too much or a little bit too early.

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Speaker 1: But when we get back from the break, we're going

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Speaker 1: to discuss the other problem when it comes to trusted happiness,

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Speaker 1: trusting too little. The happiness lab will be right back.

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Speaker 1: Rachel Batsman, author of How To Trust and Be Trusted,

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Speaker 1: is an expert on the science of trust. But I

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Speaker 1: was curious how she thinks about the opposite, what is distrust.

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Speaker 2: Oh, So the first thing I'd say is there's a

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Speaker 2: difference between low trust and distrust, and that's really important

403
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Speaker 2: to understand. So low trust can just be you don't

404
00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:26,196
Speaker 2: have enough information, like you're new to a situation or

405
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Speaker 2: a relationship. It's not necessarily a bad thing. And also

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Speaker 2: this is why I hate a lot of poles and surveys.

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Speaker 2: If you try to live your whole life in a

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Speaker 2: high trust state, it'll be pretty exhausting, right, Like, there's

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Speaker 2: certain things that just don't require a high degree of trust.

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Speaker 2: So that's the first thing I would say. Distrust it's

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Speaker 2: very difficult to define. I have not yet come up

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Speaker 2: or seen a definition that I really like. But the

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Speaker 2: way I think of distrust is more through the lens

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Speaker 2: of behaviors. So I find it helpful to think of

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Speaker 2: these three d's. So when someone is distrusting, you tend

416
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Speaker 2: to see this spectrum play out where you see a

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Speaker 2: defensiveness set in. And that defensiveness is because you have

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Speaker 2: made yourself vulnerable or you've placed something of value and

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Speaker 2: in some ways you feel that it's being exploited or

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Speaker 2: it's not being taken care of, and so the first

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Speaker 2: instinct is to be quite defensive about that. Now, the

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Speaker 2: thing about that stage of distrust is you can still

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Speaker 2: fix the situation because the person cares. The second phase

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Speaker 2: is disengagement. Disengagement is when you start to pour back.

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Speaker 2: So you might have experienced this at work where you're like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure I trust this personalised situation or

427
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Speaker 2: this boss, so I'm just going to pull back. I'm

428
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Speaker 2: not sure I'm going to really show up or really care.

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Speaker 2: And then the last phase, which is incredibly dangerous and

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Speaker 2: I think it's how we talk about distrust in society today,

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Speaker 2: is disenchantment. And disenchantment means you have turned against that person,

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Speaker 2: that organization, that system, and you're in a downward spiral

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Speaker 2: because your only motive is to bring that thing down.

434
00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:09,236
Speaker 2: You have become anti you are pushing against. And the

435
00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:12,156
Speaker 2: reason why this is so dangerous is because it can

436
00:22:12,236 --> 00:22:17,516
Speaker 2: become all consuming for yourself, for others, and very very toxic.

437
00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:20,596
Speaker 2: So you see this in sports scenes where someone turns

438
00:22:20,636 --> 00:22:23,276
Speaker 2: against the coach. You see it in workplaces where they

439
00:22:23,276 --> 00:22:26,156
Speaker 2: want everyone to leave. We see it wider in society,

440
00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:28,676
Speaker 2: where you want to turn against a party. That's how

441
00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:31,356
Speaker 2: I tend to think of distrust is moving through these

442
00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:32,036
Speaker 2: three phases.

443
00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:35,196
Speaker 1: And you mentioned sort of society, especially politics. It seems

444
00:22:35,236 --> 00:22:38,276
Speaker 1: like this idea of disenchantment is running rampant. At least

445
00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:40,276
Speaker 1: that's what we hear a lot from the news. But

446
00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:41,876
Speaker 1: I know this is an idea that you've pushed back

447
00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:44,436
Speaker 1: against a little bit that, like the kind of the

448
00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:46,996
Speaker 1: freefall of trust might not be as bad as we think.

449
00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:48,636
Speaker 1: Explain why that's the case.

450
00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:51,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I find it really difficult to listen

451
00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:55,836
Speaker 2: to news for so many reasons. But it's often because

452
00:22:55,956 --> 00:23:01,956
Speaker 2: everything is described in free fall, including trust. So you'll

453
00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,516
Speaker 2: see these graphs where it's just like this downward line

454
00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:08,836
Speaker 2: and from about twenty twenty, it's like falling off a

455
00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:12,916
Speaker 2: clip that's across the spectrum. Actually, the institutional the social

456
00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:16,636
Speaker 2: and the interpersonal trust. To me, that is problematic because

457
00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:19,716
Speaker 2: the way I think of trust is more like energy

458
00:23:19,796 --> 00:23:22,836
Speaker 2: that it's not getting destroyed, it's changing form. And so

459
00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:26,756
Speaker 2: what might look like low trust or distrust to you

460
00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:31,276
Speaker 2: is just someone trusting differently. And once you see this,

461
00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:34,316
Speaker 2: it explains so many things, and it's stopped so much judgment.

462
00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:37,116
Speaker 2: So it doesn't even have to be between political parties.

463
00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:39,556
Speaker 2: You see it within generations where people will say, well

464
00:23:39,636 --> 00:23:42,356
Speaker 2: that gen Z or jen Alfa they just don't trust anymore.

465
00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:46,276
Speaker 2: That is not true. Their trust is sideways, like they

466
00:23:46,316 --> 00:23:49,996
Speaker 2: trust their peers and friends and influencers because that's where

467
00:23:49,996 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 2: they get their information. They don't trust upwards. So thinking

468
00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:58,796
Speaker 2: of flows of trust versus amounts of trust can be

469
00:23:58,876 --> 00:24:03,876
Speaker 2: really helpful in understanding dynamics in relationships and then bigger

470
00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:05,276
Speaker 2: paradise shifts happening.

471
00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:07,276
Speaker 1: It seems like one of those bigger paradigm shifts is

472
00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,596
Speaker 1: kind of the trust that we have that in some sense,

473
00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:11,396
Speaker 1: for lack of better word, is kind of distributed, right,

474
00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:14,596
Speaker 1: You mentioned kind of gen Z and gen Alpha trusting,

475
00:24:14,636 --> 00:24:17,236
Speaker 1: influencers trusting what they read on social media. Is that

476
00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:20,156
Speaker 1: a cultural shift that you're seeing in this trust research too.

477
00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:24,676
Speaker 2: Yes, it's huge. So what we see is like if

478
00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:29,436
Speaker 2: you imagine like an evolution of trust. We had institutional trusts,

479
00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,356
Speaker 2: so everything was very top down and hierarchical and centralized

480
00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:36,276
Speaker 2: and defined by fixed boundaries. So we used to get

481
00:24:36,276 --> 00:24:40,276
Speaker 2: a newspaper, we turn on the TV that's institutional trust,

482
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:45,116
Speaker 2: and technology inherently blew that up and distributed it through

483
00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:49,196
Speaker 2: networks and marketplaces and platforms and now through artificial intelligence.

484
00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:52,676
Speaker 2: So the easiest way to understand this is imagine a

485
00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:58,156
Speaker 2: trust that for decades flowed upwards and now it's distributed sideways.

486
00:24:58,836 --> 00:25:01,796
Speaker 2: And this has so much influence over so many things

487
00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:06,356
Speaker 2: because who we believe is trustworthy, who influences our opinions

488
00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:09,756
Speaker 2: and beliefs, what we decide to act on in the

489
00:25:09,756 --> 00:25:15,796
Speaker 2: context of health, politics, education, life decisions, wellness. This is

490
00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:20,636
Speaker 2: all moving sideways, and sometimes the people sharing that information

491
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,276
Speaker 2: are not the most trustworthy. I mean, just if it

492
00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:26,196
Speaker 2: actually you see this in the happiness face that you know,

493
00:25:26,196 --> 00:25:29,196
Speaker 2: it really bothers me. Like when I see influencers online,

494
00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:32,676
Speaker 2: they're usually alone, Like do you know what I mean?

495
00:25:32,756 --> 00:25:35,836
Speaker 2: Like they wake up alone, they meditate, their their coffee,

496
00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:39,556
Speaker 2: they stretch they run alone, right, they work alone, just

497
00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,956
Speaker 2: really bothers me that that's the image of happiness.

498
00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:45,036
Speaker 1: And I think we're falling prey to a lot of

499
00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:48,116
Speaker 1: the biases that you talked about earlier about trusting too much, right,

500
00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:51,116
Speaker 1: Like many of these influencers have, you know, this beautiful

501
00:25:51,196 --> 00:25:53,236
Speaker 1: home that they go into, and they tend to be

502
00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,716
Speaker 1: really beautiful, right, Like we're falling for these tropes of

503
00:25:57,156 --> 00:25:59,836
Speaker 1: like familiarity and maybe some of the things we like

504
00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:01,916
Speaker 1: and a halo effect, that's a fact where we kind

505
00:26:01,916 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 1: of like people who have other good things happening to them.

506
00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:06,916
Speaker 1: Like it is true that like we're putting putting our trust,

507
00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:09,596
Speaker 1: this distributed trust winds up maybe following pray to as

508
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:11,516
Speaker 1: many of those same biases as you just talked about

509
00:26:11,516 --> 00:26:13,436
Speaker 1: in the interpersonal trust domain earlier.

510
00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:16,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's in sound bites and fragments, some very

511
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:20,596
Speaker 2: carefully curated images and I know all this stuff. And

512
00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:24,036
Speaker 2: I started running last year and I fell down this

513
00:26:24,116 --> 00:26:27,596
Speaker 2: rabbit hole so hard, and then I realized no one

514
00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:31,996
Speaker 2: looks like that when they run, right, Because I'd be like,

515
00:26:32,036 --> 00:26:34,916
Speaker 2: why am I so much pain and sweaty and disgusting?

516
00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:36,956
Speaker 2: And they're all like you know, here's weighing and stuff,

517
00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:41,356
Speaker 2: and because they're making money off me, and you've just

518
00:26:41,356 --> 00:26:43,236
Speaker 2: made me think of something I hadn't thought of. But

519
00:26:43,276 --> 00:26:46,276
Speaker 2: if you think about the trust you play in influencers,

520
00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:50,476
Speaker 2: like just a scrolling behavior, it's a one way thing, right,

521
00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:53,476
Speaker 2: it doesn't flow back to you, And so much of

522
00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:58,356
Speaker 2: healthy trust is reciprocation. So I do something for you,

523
00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:01,076
Speaker 2: which then creates the space for you to do something

524
00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:05,556
Speaker 2: for me. And those loops are what form trust, These

525
00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:08,276
Speaker 2: one way forms of trust. Let's not call them shallow trust,

526
00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:11,796
Speaker 2: but these one way form so trust. They're breaking those loops,

527
00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:15,516
Speaker 2: those possibilities for reciprocation, and that's damaging the social glue,

528
00:27:15,756 --> 00:27:19,516
Speaker 2: which i'd imagine is impacting our happiness and satisfaction. I'd

529
00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:21,556
Speaker 2: be interested if the research correlates to that.

530
00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:23,956
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the over trust we put in

531
00:27:23,956 --> 00:27:26,676
Speaker 1: these distributed networks, you know, to these influencers and things

532
00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:29,916
Speaker 1: like that. And that's, as you mentioned, happening alongside a

533
00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:33,876
Speaker 1: real kind of emergence of distrust for institutions, whether that's

534
00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:37,356
Speaker 1: you know, governments or academic institutions like the one I'm

535
00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:39,036
Speaker 1: at and so on. And this was the kind of

536
00:27:39,076 --> 00:27:41,916
Speaker 1: thing that the World Happiness Report was really looking at. Right,

537
00:27:41,956 --> 00:27:44,316
Speaker 1: The chapter of the World Happiness Report that's on trust

538
00:27:44,356 --> 00:27:46,836
Speaker 1: is trying to look at this puzzle about why there's

539
00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:50,196
Speaker 1: been so many kind of voting behaviors that have shifted

540
00:27:50,476 --> 00:27:53,996
Speaker 1: kind of more anti institutional right for candidates that maybe

541
00:27:54,076 --> 00:27:56,356
Speaker 1: want smaller government or kind of want to do away

542
00:27:56,396 --> 00:27:59,676
Speaker 1: with government, you know, kind of candidates that really represent

543
00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,076
Speaker 1: these sort of views that are kind of anti establishment.

544
00:28:02,396 --> 00:28:03,956
Speaker 1: Walk me through some of the things that this chapter

545
00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:06,436
Speaker 1: found and how trust was really important for some of

546
00:28:06,436 --> 00:28:07,836
Speaker 1: these changes in voting behavior.

547
00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:10,836
Speaker 2: The report is really interesting. I don't agree with all

548
00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:13,276
Speaker 2: of the framing. Sort of at the highest level. It's

549
00:28:13,276 --> 00:28:17,036
Speaker 2: basically saying the far left have high trust and higher

550
00:28:17,036 --> 00:28:21,236
Speaker 2: life satisfaction and the far right have low trust and

551
00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:24,916
Speaker 2: lower life satisfaction. That's like top level, which is a

552
00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:29,316
Speaker 2: problematic framing for me. And one of the reasons why

553
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:31,956
Speaker 2: is they're saying that when you're in a low trust date,

554
00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:35,476
Speaker 2: you tend to be anti You invest your energy in

555
00:28:35,676 --> 00:28:38,396
Speaker 2: pushing it against things, the status guo, you want to

556
00:28:38,396 --> 00:28:41,516
Speaker 2: break down the system, and when you are high trust,

557
00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:45,956
Speaker 2: you are four so you're more progressive. Where the report

558
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:50,596
Speaker 2: gets really interesting is when you dig further down. So

559
00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:53,636
Speaker 2: what I found interesting is that if you stick with

560
00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:56,436
Speaker 2: this far left, in this far right dichotomy, the far

561
00:28:56,596 --> 00:29:01,836
Speaker 2: right had higher distrust in strangers, but much higher trust

562
00:29:01,916 --> 00:29:06,996
Speaker 2: in their private circles, close knit family, friends, work, colleagues,

563
00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:10,516
Speaker 2: really high bonds of social trust. And then on the

564
00:29:10,636 --> 00:29:14,916
Speaker 2: left hand side there are actually signs of lower interpersonal trust,

565
00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:19,876
Speaker 2: higher signs of learniness and disengagement. And that I think

566
00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:24,196
Speaker 2: is really interesting. Essentially, what the report is saying is

567
00:29:24,196 --> 00:29:27,356
Speaker 2: that the social fabric is damaged for both.

568
00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:30,796
Speaker 1: Sides, yeah, and damaged and damaged in different ways. That

569
00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:33,076
Speaker 1: might lead to the fact that it's very hard to

570
00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:36,436
Speaker 1: see across the aisle right because people are thinking about

571
00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:39,676
Speaker 1: trust in different ways across different sides of the political spectrum,

572
00:29:39,716 --> 00:29:42,636
Speaker 1: which is maybe what's leading to a disconnect in what

573
00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:45,436
Speaker 1: people want governments to be doing over time exactly.

574
00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:47,636
Speaker 2: And so this idea of high trust and low trust,

575
00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:50,756
Speaker 2: that's the problem because both sads hype high trust, but

576
00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:53,876
Speaker 2: in different things. It's not that they lack trust, they

577
00:29:53,916 --> 00:29:56,436
Speaker 2: just trust differently. And this is what we see is

578
00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:59,076
Speaker 2: that when you take trust away from one area of

579
00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,356
Speaker 2: our lives, it creates a vacuum, and that vacuum has

580
00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:06,076
Speaker 2: to be filled with something, and that could be different beliefs,

581
00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:08,516
Speaker 2: it could be conspiracy theories, but you have to feel

582
00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:11,476
Speaker 2: that for But I think holding on to this idea

583
00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:15,116
Speaker 2: that the social fabric is damaged and that the root

584
00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:19,036
Speaker 2: causes of that that are driving trust issues and problems

585
00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:23,916
Speaker 2: with happiness are insecurity and loneliness on both sides. It's

586
00:30:23,956 --> 00:30:27,276
Speaker 2: those two things that are merging together to really cause

587
00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:29,356
Speaker 2: this sort of reconfiguration over trust.

588
00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:32,116
Speaker 1: So is there any hope that our tattered social fabric

589
00:30:32,156 --> 00:30:34,396
Speaker 1: can be repaired? And if so, how can we go

590
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:36,956
Speaker 1: about creating a future where we trust each other and

591
00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:40,036
Speaker 1: our institutions. We'll look at that when the Happiness Lab

592
00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:49,956
Speaker 1: returns in a moment. In her audiobook How to Trust

593
00:30:49,956 --> 00:30:53,196
Speaker 1: and Be Trusted, Rachel Batsman has lots of great suggestions

594
00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,476
Speaker 1: for increasing trust in our lives. One interesting concept is

595
00:30:56,516 --> 00:30:58,076
Speaker 1: what she calls a trust leap.

596
00:30:58,436 --> 00:31:01,916
Speaker 2: So, a trust leap is whenever you take a risk

597
00:31:02,516 --> 00:31:05,516
Speaker 2: to do something new or to do something differently. Now,

598
00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:07,796
Speaker 2: when you talk about trust lease, people often think about

599
00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:11,756
Speaker 2: big things in a self driving car or buying bitcoin

600
00:31:11,916 --> 00:31:14,996
Speaker 2: that involves like a new technology and that is a

601
00:31:14,996 --> 00:31:17,796
Speaker 2: trust leap, that is how we change behavior. But trust

602
00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:22,676
Speaker 2: sleeps can also be relatively small in our lives. So

603
00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:26,196
Speaker 2: it can be choosing to put your hand up at

604
00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:29,636
Speaker 2: work to do something completely differently. It can be choosing

605
00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:32,876
Speaker 2: to speak up in a meeting. And one of the

606
00:31:32,876 --> 00:31:35,756
Speaker 2: problems I've actually seen around trust leaps is that first

607
00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:38,396
Speaker 2: of all, people focus on the outcome, so they focus

608
00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:40,236
Speaker 2: on where they want the leap to go, and they

609
00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:45,596
Speaker 2: imagine these leaps being really really big versus small, consistent

610
00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:48,556
Speaker 2: ways of doing something new or doing something differently and

611
00:31:48,636 --> 00:31:51,196
Speaker 2: seeing where that takes us. So that is the concept

612
00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:52,116
Speaker 2: of trust leaps.

613
00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:54,596
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but

614
00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:56,836
Speaker 1: what are some of the things that prevent people from

615
00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:58,916
Speaker 1: making these trust leaves. It seems like part of it

616
00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:01,396
Speaker 1: maybe is a bias to assume the trust leap is

617
00:32:01,436 --> 00:32:03,036
Speaker 1: going to go badly in some forum.

618
00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:05,596
Speaker 2: It's interesting to say badly, because we often don't even

619
00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,756
Speaker 2: get that far. Because if you imagine a trust leap

620
00:32:08,796 --> 00:32:13,396
Speaker 2: involved going from the known and the safe and the familiar,

621
00:32:13,756 --> 00:32:16,236
Speaker 2: and that's, as you know, Laurie, where we all love

622
00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,156
Speaker 2: to be, like, that's where we're wired to be, and

623
00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,796
Speaker 2: it involves like going to the unknown, because that's when

624
00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:25,996
Speaker 2: we discover new things. Most of us, it's so hard

625
00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:29,476
Speaker 2: to move from that place that is safe and familiar

626
00:32:29,836 --> 00:32:32,676
Speaker 2: that we never even really take the first leap. So

627
00:32:32,716 --> 00:32:35,636
Speaker 2: it's not that we are assessing risk. We're not thinking

628
00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:38,796
Speaker 2: about all these bad things could happen. It's often just

629
00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:42,556
Speaker 2: the getting started and breaking the leap down that is

630
00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:43,196
Speaker 2: the problem.

631
00:32:43,356 --> 00:32:45,876
Speaker 1: I love this idea because it's really about like recognizing

632
00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:48,276
Speaker 1: that getting out of your comfort zone, which we so

633
00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:49,916
Speaker 1: many of us struggle with, is in some ways a

634
00:32:49,916 --> 00:32:52,596
Speaker 1: trust leap, right. It's like embracing that unknown and kind

635
00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:55,596
Speaker 1: of trusting yourself that it's going to be fine no

636
00:32:55,636 --> 00:32:57,476
Speaker 1: matter how it turns out, even if it doesn't go

637
00:32:57,596 --> 00:32:58,516
Speaker 1: perfectly as planned.

638
00:32:58,596 --> 00:33:00,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know you said you don't

639
00:33:00,716 --> 00:33:03,076
Speaker 2: like being on a bike. I hate being on a bike.

640
00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:06,036
Speaker 2: It fills me with dread. I don't like skiing on

641
00:33:06,076 --> 00:33:08,556
Speaker 2: the edges of things because I don't like ledges right.

642
00:33:08,716 --> 00:33:11,796
Speaker 2: So often where we find it hard to take trust

643
00:33:11,876 --> 00:33:15,476
Speaker 2: leaps is associated with risks. So there are some risks,

644
00:33:15,836 --> 00:33:18,276
Speaker 2: like physical risks that are really hard for me to take,

645
00:33:18,396 --> 00:33:20,676
Speaker 2: like when I swim in the ocean, my husband's Australian

646
00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:23,796
Speaker 2: and we go to Australia. I'm so afraid of the sharks.

647
00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:26,636
Speaker 2: But no sharks in a common three centimeters of order, right.

648
00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:30,516
Speaker 2: But those trust leaps are really really hard, but creative

649
00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:32,916
Speaker 2: trust leaps are really easy for me to take. It's

650
00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:37,356
Speaker 2: a very different type of risk, and so understanding that

651
00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:39,676
Speaker 2: again can be and it's something I talk about in

652
00:33:39,676 --> 00:33:42,436
Speaker 2: the book because I really believe it can help you

653
00:33:43,316 --> 00:33:46,476
Speaker 2: understand where you're stuck and where you like things to

654
00:33:46,516 --> 00:33:48,756
Speaker 2: be comfortable and where you really find it hard to

655
00:33:48,796 --> 00:33:52,556
Speaker 2: stretch yourself. Is usually to do with different types of risk,

656
00:33:52,716 --> 00:33:57,196
Speaker 2: financial risk, emotional risk, physical risk, creative risk. They all

657
00:33:57,236 --> 00:33:59,076
Speaker 2: have a very different makeup in our lives.

658
00:33:59,236 --> 00:34:01,676
Speaker 1: You've also argued that we'd be helped in terms of

659
00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:05,036
Speaker 1: finding more trust by trying to sort out our trust barriers.

660
00:34:05,316 --> 00:34:07,036
Speaker 1: What do you mean by trust barriers and what are

661
00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:08,396
Speaker 1: some ways that we can understand them?

662
00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:11,036
Speaker 2: So the trust is, as you can tell, I like

663
00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:15,076
Speaker 2: my metaphors, it is the thing that gets in the way,

664
00:34:15,356 --> 00:34:17,036
Speaker 2: you know, like the number of people who say I

665
00:34:17,076 --> 00:34:20,236
Speaker 2: can't move like they've never lived in a different country,

666
00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:23,476
Speaker 2: or they can't move jobs, or in some ways they

667
00:34:23,476 --> 00:34:26,116
Speaker 2: can't get off of a relationship, they can't take up

668
00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:29,556
Speaker 2: a new hobby. They are describing well being stuck. That

669
00:34:29,636 --> 00:34:32,676
Speaker 2: they are in some way paralyzed, and that is because

670
00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:35,756
Speaker 2: there is some kind of barrier in the way. Now,

671
00:34:35,796 --> 00:34:38,676
Speaker 2: that trust barrier. It might be a very practical thing

672
00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:42,116
Speaker 2: like money, financial security, but it can also be things

673
00:34:42,196 --> 00:34:47,076
Speaker 2: like companionship just really frightened to do it alone. Not

674
00:34:47,196 --> 00:34:49,356
Speaker 2: to go on about running, but I wouldn't been able

675
00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:51,636
Speaker 2: to run if I didn't find a friend, because I

676
00:34:51,636 --> 00:34:54,396
Speaker 2: wouldn't run around the parks in the dark, and I'd

677
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:55,996
Speaker 2: be really scared of what was going to happen if

678
00:34:56,036 --> 00:34:59,436
Speaker 2: I got lost. That's a trust barrier, and in companies

679
00:34:59,556 --> 00:35:02,676
Speaker 2: these barriers get bigger. It's actually a really useful framework

680
00:35:02,716 --> 00:35:05,836
Speaker 2: if you're launching a new product or service because often

681
00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:08,556
Speaker 2: what you think is the trust barrier is very different

682
00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:10,876
Speaker 2: from what the cust some that thinks is the trust barrier.

683
00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:14,996
Speaker 2: So understanding what that perception is around risk, whether it's

684
00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:18,156
Speaker 2: real or perceived, can be really helpful for launching a

685
00:35:18,156 --> 00:35:19,356
Speaker 2: new product or service as well.

686
00:35:19,396 --> 00:35:21,356
Speaker 1: And imagine there are lots of trust barriers that come

687
00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:24,076
Speaker 1: up in the domain of politics, which is what the

688
00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:26,516
Speaker 1: World Happiness Report is about what are some examples of

689
00:35:26,516 --> 00:35:28,476
Speaker 1: trust barriers that come up in that domain.

690
00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:32,516
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure where to begin, but a trust barrier,

691
00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 2: actually it's a funny thing, but it can be like

692
00:35:35,316 --> 00:35:39,196
Speaker 2: nothing's going to change. So it can result in apathy,

693
00:35:39,516 --> 00:35:41,716
Speaker 2: like I'm just not going to vote, I'm going to abstain.

694
00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:46,716
Speaker 2: So believing that there is no way things are going

695
00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:50,916
Speaker 2: to change direction or system's going to change. Financial insecurity,

696
00:35:51,156 --> 00:35:54,836
Speaker 2: that is a massive trust barrier. Not believing there's going

697
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:57,276
Speaker 2: to be any kind of redistribution of wealth or that

698
00:35:57,396 --> 00:36:00,356
Speaker 2: my life is going to get better. Trust barriers can

699
00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:03,156
Speaker 2: be much closer to home. You're probably seeing in the

700
00:36:03,196 --> 00:36:05,596
Speaker 2: research the number of people and it's a real worry

701
00:36:05,716 --> 00:36:07,476
Speaker 2: that they're never going to own a home, they're never

702
00:36:07,516 --> 00:36:09,636
Speaker 2: going to be able to retire, and so it can

703
00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:12,436
Speaker 2: actually paralyze people from even getting started, even though that

704
00:36:12,476 --> 00:36:14,956
Speaker 2: life stage might be forty to fifty years away. So

705
00:36:15,076 --> 00:36:19,836
Speaker 2: these are real trust barriers that are impacting people's happiness

706
00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 2: and immediate decisions.

707
00:36:21,756 --> 00:36:23,836
Speaker 1: And so what are some questions we can ask ourselves

708
00:36:23,876 --> 00:36:25,716
Speaker 1: to overcome these trust barriers. I mean, some of the

709
00:36:25,796 --> 00:36:27,756
Speaker 1: ones you're talking about are structural right, they don't have

710
00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:29,996
Speaker 1: enough money for a home. These things might be harder,

711
00:36:30,316 --> 00:36:32,036
Speaker 1: but some of the trust barriers, like well I can't

712
00:36:32,036 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 1: do it by myself, they might be easier to overcome

713
00:36:34,516 --> 00:36:36,596
Speaker 1: if we consult our fears of it. So what are

714
00:36:36,596 --> 00:36:39,436
Speaker 1: some questions we can ask ourselves to overcome these trust barriers.

715
00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:42,276
Speaker 2: It's a good question where did it come from? Was

716
00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:45,156
Speaker 2: it something I developed or was it something that I

717
00:36:45,236 --> 00:36:47,476
Speaker 2: was told as a child. Is a really big one.

718
00:36:47,596 --> 00:36:49,876
Speaker 2: So if you grew up in a family that always

719
00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:53,556
Speaker 2: like be careful, don't go that far, or get down

720
00:36:53,596 --> 00:36:57,116
Speaker 2: from there. A lot of it starts really young, Laurie,

721
00:36:57,156 --> 00:37:00,676
Speaker 2: and that's not surprising because our relationship to risk and

722
00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:03,316
Speaker 2: trust it's really formed around the age of four. The

723
00:37:03,436 --> 00:37:07,476
Speaker 2: second thing I would ask is, again, how much of

724
00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:10,516
Speaker 2: this is real and how much of this is perception?

725
00:37:11,316 --> 00:37:14,396
Speaker 2: So how much of this is rooted in facts and

726
00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:19,276
Speaker 2: data versus my own fits? That would be the second,

727
00:37:19,596 --> 00:37:23,756
Speaker 2: and then the third is not necessarily getting rid of

728
00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:26,716
Speaker 2: the barrier, but lowering the leap. You know, I feel

729
00:37:26,756 --> 00:37:28,596
Speaker 2: so lucky to teach at Oxford, but then I have

730
00:37:28,676 --> 00:37:30,876
Speaker 2: friends who are like, I'd love my child to go there,

731
00:37:31,196 --> 00:37:34,916
Speaker 2: and You're like, that is a very ambitious leap for

732
00:37:35,036 --> 00:37:38,236
Speaker 2: many children, Like, why don't we just lower that leap

733
00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:41,516
Speaker 2: a little bit? And if it ends up like that, great.

734
00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:44,676
Speaker 2: It's not about not being ambitious and wanting achievement. I

735
00:37:44,796 --> 00:37:47,836
Speaker 2: just think so much pressure comes in life because we

736
00:37:47,916 --> 00:37:50,236
Speaker 2: make these leaps way too high.

737
00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:53,316
Speaker 1: And I think that that happens in politics too, right.

738
00:37:53,396 --> 00:37:56,116
Speaker 1: I think both because of the misinformation you talked about, right,

739
00:37:56,156 --> 00:38:00,076
Speaker 1: you know my information accurate? Have I gotten the right facts?

740
00:38:00,356 --> 00:38:03,396
Speaker 1: But also because we make the barriers to entries so high, right.

741
00:38:03,436 --> 00:38:05,796
Speaker 1: I think when we envision maybe talking to somebody from

742
00:38:05,836 --> 00:38:09,676
Speaker 1: across the aisle, we picture really extreme on the other

743
00:38:09,716 --> 00:38:11,556
Speaker 1: side of the aisle, right, you know, because that's you know,

744
00:38:11,596 --> 00:38:13,636
Speaker 1: what we see in our distributed trust networks, that's what

745
00:38:13,636 --> 00:38:16,556
Speaker 1: the influencers attacking us about. Are there ways that we

746
00:38:16,596 --> 00:38:19,596
Speaker 1: can maybe overcome these trust barriers in those domains too?

747
00:38:20,276 --> 00:38:23,076
Speaker 2: I think it's it's a really important point because the

748
00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:25,476
Speaker 2: way it's sort of pictured it often is taking on

749
00:38:25,516 --> 00:38:27,996
Speaker 2: the system or taking on the other side. And I

750
00:38:28,036 --> 00:38:31,956
Speaker 2: would start by just having a conversation that makes you uncomfortable,

751
00:38:32,156 --> 00:38:35,196
Speaker 2: being comfortable with the discomfort of a difficult situation is

752
00:38:35,236 --> 00:38:38,156
Speaker 2: the starting place. So I have a lot of friends

753
00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:42,156
Speaker 2: that have very difficult and different views on the war

754
00:38:42,196 --> 00:38:45,436
Speaker 2: in Gaza. And you know, at my children's school, they're

755
00:38:45,436 --> 00:38:48,876
Speaker 2: banned from talking about wars or politics because I quote,

756
00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,956
Speaker 2: it brings up big feelings. And I have a real

757
00:38:51,996 --> 00:38:55,356
Speaker 2: objection to that, because what are we teaching our children

758
00:38:55,436 --> 00:38:57,916
Speaker 2: that they can't deal with that discomfort, that they can't

759
00:38:57,956 --> 00:39:01,396
Speaker 2: have a difficult conversation, that they can't hold that space

760
00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,036
Speaker 2: with another human being that maybe has a different belief

761
00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:06,516
Speaker 2: or viewpoint from them. So you know, you can start

762
00:39:06,556 --> 00:39:09,036
Speaker 2: with your own friends and your family and people that

763
00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:11,276
Speaker 2: you know at the end and just they're going to

764
00:39:11,316 --> 00:39:13,436
Speaker 2: hug and tell you that they still love you, right

765
00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:16,876
Speaker 2: and knowing that nothing changes in that relationship. There's so

766
00:39:17,116 --> 00:39:20,036
Speaker 2: much we can learn just from being with that discomfort

767
00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:22,236
Speaker 2: and that heat and learning that everything is okay.

768
00:39:22,436 --> 00:39:24,356
Speaker 1: And then on the other side of that discomfort, if

769
00:39:24,356 --> 00:39:26,916
Speaker 1: you push through, it might be a trusting relationship that

770
00:39:27,156 --> 00:39:28,956
Speaker 1: you're going to value tremendously and it's going to make

771
00:39:28,996 --> 00:39:29,796
Speaker 1: you much happier.

772
00:39:29,876 --> 00:39:33,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, or like not to go to my children, but

773
00:39:33,076 --> 00:39:34,916
Speaker 2: like this did happen in their school where they had

774
00:39:34,996 --> 00:39:38,196
Speaker 2: quite a difficult conversation around the Holocaust where some children

775
00:39:38,516 --> 00:39:41,196
Speaker 2: you know now don't believe the Holocaust has happened now

776
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:43,916
Speaker 2: they're nine and ten. That's not coming from them, that's

777
00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:47,396
Speaker 2: come from somewhere. And the fact that the history teacher

778
00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:50,716
Speaker 2: then backed them up and gave this very factor assembly.

779
00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:54,116
Speaker 2: They were like, wow, there's someone who cares right, and

780
00:39:54,156 --> 00:39:57,196
Speaker 2: there's information that we can trust. And he explained where

781
00:39:57,196 --> 00:39:59,956
Speaker 2: he got this information from. Now, regardless of what your

782
00:40:00,276 --> 00:40:03,796
Speaker 2: side you're on, that assembly would have impacted both sets

783
00:40:03,796 --> 00:40:06,276
Speaker 2: of children, the non believers and the children that this

784
00:40:06,396 --> 00:40:09,556
Speaker 2: was really important that this chapter in history was members.

785
00:40:09,596 --> 00:40:13,636
Speaker 2: So I feel like those moments, particularly with children, it's

786
00:40:13,676 --> 00:40:15,996
Speaker 2: really like, I can trust this person, I can trust

787
00:40:15,996 --> 00:40:18,276
Speaker 2: this situation. It's really important to teach.

788
00:40:18,396 --> 00:40:20,236
Speaker 1: So as we think back to the World Happiness Report

789
00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:22,716
Speaker 1: and the importance it's placed on trust, and how trust

790
00:40:22,836 --> 00:40:25,876
Speaker 1: might be going down institutionally, how lack of trust is

791
00:40:25,956 --> 00:40:28,676
Speaker 1: kind of affecting our politics, and so much any last

792
00:40:28,716 --> 00:40:31,196
Speaker 1: advice for how people on both sides can become a

793
00:40:31,236 --> 00:40:32,196
Speaker 1: little bit more trusting.

794
00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:35,876
Speaker 2: I think too much of the conversation is around institutional trust.

795
00:40:36,476 --> 00:40:40,676
Speaker 2: These are systems that ninety nine percent of us cannot fix.

796
00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:43,156
Speaker 2: They are too big, they're too far out of reach, right,

797
00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:47,796
Speaker 2: So I would say, focus on local trust doesn't even

798
00:40:47,836 --> 00:40:51,636
Speaker 2: have to be your family and friends. Focus on things

799
00:40:51,716 --> 00:40:55,796
Speaker 2: going on in your community, in your neighborhood, in your street,

800
00:40:56,276 --> 00:40:59,356
Speaker 2: and really getting involved in something like that. It can

801
00:40:59,396 --> 00:41:01,556
Speaker 2: do so much for your social ties. It can do

802
00:41:01,636 --> 00:41:04,876
Speaker 2: so much for the glue and make you feel in

803
00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:07,796
Speaker 2: some way back in control because you can impact the

804
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:11,036
Speaker 2: people around you. So that would be my advice is

805
00:41:11,276 --> 00:41:15,076
Speaker 2: just stop looking outward and upward so much at these

806
00:41:15,076 --> 00:41:18,276
Speaker 2: big problems and letting them consume so much energy. And

807
00:41:18,316 --> 00:41:20,996
Speaker 2: it's not about withdrawal. If I'm not saying that, I'm

808
00:41:21,036 --> 00:41:23,036
Speaker 2: not saying like, be at home more alone. We don't

809
00:41:23,076 --> 00:41:25,956
Speaker 2: need more of that. It's about local ties and community

810
00:41:25,956 --> 00:41:29,196
Speaker 2: ties and connections that you could in some way put

811
00:41:29,236 --> 00:41:30,556
Speaker 2: into action Tomorrow.

812
00:41:32,356 --> 00:41:34,916
Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed my conversation with Rachel and that

813
00:41:35,036 --> 00:41:36,796
Speaker 1: you've learned a bit more about what you can do

814
00:41:36,836 --> 00:41:39,836
Speaker 1: to trust and be trusted more effectively. If you want

815
00:41:39,876 --> 00:41:42,276
Speaker 1: to hear more, be sure to check out Rachel's fabulous

816
00:41:42,276 --> 00:41:46,076
Speaker 1: new audiobook, How to Trust and Be Trusted, available everywhere

817
00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:48,676
Speaker 1: you get your Audio Books. That's a wrap on our

818
00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:51,396
Speaker 1: special series on the World Happiness Report. But not to

819
00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:53,956
Speaker 1: worry because the Happiness Lab will be back next week.

820
00:41:54,156 --> 00:41:56,716
Speaker 1: I'll be chatting with my friend, the happiness expert, Gretchen

821
00:41:56,756 --> 00:42:00,036
Speaker 1: Rubin about her secrets to adulthood. So I hope you'll

822
00:42:00,036 --> 00:42:03,076
Speaker 1: returned soon for the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Larry

823
00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:10,876
Speaker 1: Santos