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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to will Kate f Daily

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Speaker 1: with Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to bring to you this week a

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Speaker 1: two part conversation on the state of black farmers and

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Speaker 1: ranchers in America. And you know, for many years, I've

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Speaker 1: often wondered what would America look like if, following the

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Speaker 1: Civil War, right and the emancipation of enslaved black people

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Speaker 1: in the United States, if they had received what they

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Speaker 1: were owed right, if not only had reconstruction and continued

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Speaker 1: for more than twelve years, which saw black men having

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Speaker 1: access to the vote and becoming members of government right

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Speaker 1: at the state, local and city levels, but if also

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Speaker 1: those that were enslaved, beaten, raped, terrorized, and brutalized for centuries,

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Speaker 1: If those that had survived white supremacist domestic terrorism, if

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Speaker 1: they had received the land right and the resources to

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Speaker 1: build their lives right after having built the economy of

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Speaker 1: the United States off of their backs. This is something

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Speaker 1: that I think about often, and you know, it actually

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Speaker 1: sometimes brings me back to Jonathan Metzel, our friend and

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Speaker 1: our in house doctor's book, Dying of Whiteness, how much

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Speaker 1: stronger America would be right now if white racist Americans

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Speaker 1: had not then and continue now to levy so many

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Speaker 1: obstacles and issues and policies on top of black Americans,

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Speaker 1: that this country would be a place of bounty right

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Speaker 1: for everyone. And so come now to the conversation that

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Speaker 1: I'm having this week, and that is with April Simpson,

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Speaker 1: who is a reporter and the person that is leading

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Speaker 1: the season three of the award winning podcast The Heist,

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Speaker 1: which has had two very successful seasons, and The Heist

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Speaker 1: in season three focuses on a heist by the US

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Speaker 1: government of land and wealth from America's black farmers and ranchers.

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Speaker 1: And April, who I will speak to next, reports on

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Speaker 1: this series and it is anchored around Nate Bradford, who

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Speaker 1: you will hear from tomorrow, who is a black rancher

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Speaker 1: and comes from a family of ranchers and the issues

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Speaker 1: that he has had. And you know, this entire series,

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Speaker 1: this next season is all tied to a recent study

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Speaker 1: that found this. Folks, listen to this because when I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the disruption, the purposeful disruption of black wealth,

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Speaker 1: the racial wealth gap has always been discussed as if

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Speaker 1: it is oh We just need to provide these underserved

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Speaker 1: black people with opportunities and then they can thrive. They

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Speaker 1: just need more education. Blah blah blah. No, Actually, what

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Speaker 1: black people in this country has needed is for white

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Speaker 1: people to get the fuck out of their way, right

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Speaker 1: And why do I say that, because I want you

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Speaker 1: to take in this number right now. Season three of

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Speaker 1: The Heist is tied to a study that found that

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Speaker 1: black farmers lost three hundred and twenty six billion dollars

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Speaker 1: with a b in land in the twentieth century alone.

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Speaker 1: That's more than the entire GDP of Chile and Columbia.

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Speaker 1: That discrimination has largely been at the hands of the

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Speaker 1: US Department of Agriculture, which was established by President Lincoln

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Speaker 1: during the Civil War. Three hundred and twenty six billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: And I know that you have listened to Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Transportation Pete Buddhadette on this show and others when he

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Speaker 1: spoke about the discrimination that had been done to break

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Speaker 1: up black communities and put highways right through towns and

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Speaker 1: communities through farmland. Go in and just seize land from

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Speaker 1: black owners and give them nothing in return for it.

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Speaker 1: This has been the fundamental practice of this government since Lincoln.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk about the racial wealth gap, it

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Speaker 1: isn't something that occurred because there was a quote unquote

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Speaker 1: lack of educational opportunity. The reason why black people in

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Speaker 1: this country find themselves making ten twenty times less and

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Speaker 1: having less wealth than their white neighbors and counterparts is

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Speaker 1: largely because of the United States government's theft, lies, deceit,

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Speaker 1: and discrimination that has been interwoven into policies for hundreds

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Speaker 1: of bucking years. I can tell you, folks that when

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Speaker 1: I began this interview with April and Nate, who you

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Speaker 1: will hear from tomorrow, I knew a little right. I

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Speaker 1: knew enough to know that the United States government has

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Speaker 1: always been at the front of ensuring the racial wealth gap,

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Speaker 1: of solidifying the racial wealth gap in this country, and

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Speaker 1: taking absolutely no responsibility and continuing along with the narrative that, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, black folks are just lazy, or they just

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Speaker 1: need more education, or to pick themselves up from them

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Speaker 1: boots straps, understanding that white wealth in this country was

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Speaker 1: formed around the obstacles that were put in the way

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Speaker 1: for their black counterparts. Why is it that I have

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Speaker 1: some friends that have land and businesses that were passed

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Speaker 1: down in their families from their great great grandparents, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, why don't you have anything right, No land,

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Speaker 1: no business, no nothing. Oh because black people, their families

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Speaker 1: were denied those loans, those mortgages, the land rights, run

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Speaker 1: off of their land. And so each generation has just

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Speaker 1: been trying to keep their head above water that the

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Speaker 1: United States government has been drowning them in. So in

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Speaker 1: this conversation coming up next with April Simpson, we get

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Speaker 1: into the conversation that The Heist, the award winning podcast

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Speaker 1: is having this season around black farmers and ranchers and

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Speaker 1: government theft. That conversation, dear friends, is coming up next, folks.

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Speaker 1: I am very happy to welcome to wikate f Daily

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Speaker 1: for the first time April Simpson, who is the reporter

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Speaker 1: who is reporting on an award winning podcast, The Heist,

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Speaker 1: which who season two, The Wealth of Vartax, won the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three Excellence and Financial Journalism Award for Best

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Speaker 1: Audio Reporting, and this season, which will come out on

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Speaker 1: October third, focuses on the heist by the US government

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Speaker 1: of land and wealth from America's black farmers and ranchers. April,

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Speaker 1: please talk to us about I mean your work. One

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Speaker 1: has been at the Center for Public Integrity, you have

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Speaker 1: been a US Fulbright fellow, you have been at the

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Speaker 1: London School of Economics. You have covered this issue and

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Speaker 1: many issues around agriculture and reported on it. Talk to

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Speaker 1: us about the plight of black farmers in the US.

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Speaker 1: That is not mainstream knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Okay, sure, and black farmers have long had issues in

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Speaker 2: gaining access to credit, being able to get loans, even

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Speaker 2: loan applications, being able to get that money in a

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Speaker 2: way that is timely because agriculture is obviously so time sensitive,

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Speaker 2: and they've often had an issue with the Department of

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Speaker 2: Agriculture and that it being a lender to farmers who

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Speaker 2: aren't able to get credit anywhere else. And this kind

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Speaker 2: of documented history of discrimination has been going on for

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Speaker 2: a very long time. Some would argue that it's been

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Speaker 2: going on since the founding of the department, which happened

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Speaker 2: during the Civil War under President Lincoln. And yeah, reports

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Speaker 2: that go through, you know, from the sixties, eighties, and nineties,

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Speaker 2: and all of that ended up with a class action

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Speaker 2: settlement that I'm sure you'll you'll want to talk about

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Speaker 2: in the late nineties that black farmers were successful in

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Speaker 2: settling with the government around So one of the.

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Speaker 1: Things that I did not realize, and I think is

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Speaker 1: brought up in the description of this upcoming season, is

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Speaker 1: that black farmers lost three hundred and twenty six billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in land in the twentieth century alone. Talk to

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Speaker 1: us about that staggering number in the twentieth century, and

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Speaker 1: then in conjunction with the lawsuit that they won and

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Speaker 1: how much that was actually for if it was even

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Speaker 1: a drop in the bucket in comparison to the theft.

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Speaker 2: Right, so that three hundred and twenty six billion dollars

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Speaker 2: is obviously a very staggering figure. It's these researchers release

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Speaker 2: that data showing that, you know, black farmers have lost

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Speaker 2: this amount in land and in wealth because when you

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Speaker 2: have land, it can be used as collateral to you know,

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Speaker 2: get loans or credit. It it's you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: wealth building tool. It often leads to political uh uh,

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Speaker 2: what's the word I'm looking for? Political power of locally,

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Speaker 2: a lot of folks who are landowners are also you know,

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Speaker 2: community community leaders, and so black farmers have been denied

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Speaker 2: all of this over the past century. There's you know,

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Speaker 2: other stats from the Census of Agriculture that shows, you know,

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Speaker 2: black farmers are the only racial group of farmers who

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Speaker 2: have decreased over the last century. Obviously, armland ownership has

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Speaker 2: decreased in a saggering way as well, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: all of that has been happening black farmers wage. Like

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Speaker 2: I said, a successful class action suit against the Department

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Speaker 2: in the late nineties called Pickford versus Clickman, and that

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Speaker 2: suit acknowledged that black farmers had long been denied loans,

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Speaker 2: delayed loans, just not given access to the benefits and

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Speaker 2: resources that white farmers were given access to from the

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Speaker 2: Department of Agriculture, and oftentimes that led to them losing

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Speaker 2: their land, you know, going into foreclosure, just not being

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Speaker 2: able to plant on time, being pretty much set up

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Speaker 2: for failure because if you get that loan too late

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Speaker 2: in the season, like you're not going to have a

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Speaker 2: successful crop, You're not going to have a good harvest season.

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Speaker 2: So the settlement in that case, because it didn't actually

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Speaker 2: go to trial, there was a settlement agreement that the

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Speaker 2: parties agreed to, and the settlement in that case had

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Speaker 2: essentially two tracks. They call them Track A and Track B.

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Speaker 2: And for track A. You had to show proof of discrimination.

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Speaker 2: You had to show that there was a similarly situated

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Speaker 2: white farmer who was given access to the resources that

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Speaker 2: you were denied. You had to show like an economic loss.

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Speaker 2: And after you showed these things, you were given fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars and the opportunity to have some debt forgiven

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Speaker 2: that was tied to specific loans where they found racial discrimination.

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Speaker 2: The other option that farmers had was Track B, and

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Speaker 2: that would have been much more, much more beneficial in

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Speaker 2: terms of the funding that they were given. But they

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Speaker 2: still had to show substantial proof or preponderance of ever

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Speaker 2: evidence of discrimination. They had to gather a lot more paperwork,

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Speaker 2: they had to present it at what's kind of like

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Speaker 2: a mini trial, and they had to show that their

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Speaker 2: losses were greater than fifty thousand. Ultimately, only I think

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Speaker 2: one percent or less than one percent of farmers actually

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Speaker 2: went with TRACKB. Some farmers say, such as the one

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Speaker 2: that we interview in the podcast, Eddie Slott, who was

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Speaker 2: a claimant. He says that the lawyers encouraged the farmers

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Speaker 2: to go with Track A because you know, even though

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Speaker 2: the bar was still fairly high, it was lower than

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Speaker 2: Track BE and the opportunity to have their debt forgiven.

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Speaker 2: Those loans forgiven was the real draw, but ultimately most

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Speaker 2: farmers didn't get any loan forgiveness.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just disgusted, right, I, like anyone at his

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Speaker 1: listening to this and thinking about the like I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about pretty much every presidential candidate talking about Middle America,

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Speaker 1: talking about real Americans and bootstraps and land and the

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Speaker 1: way that they show fields in their political campaigns. And

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Speaker 1: not one president you tell me if I'm wrong, has

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Speaker 1: come out and done anything on behalf of black farmers, like,

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Speaker 1: done anything to really push for or provide this kind

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Speaker 1: of debt relief, provide any type of restitution for centuries

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Speaker 1: of pillage over their property and their ability to grow

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Speaker 1: wealth in this country.

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Speaker 2: I mean the Pickford and the efforts around it started

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Speaker 2: under the Clinton administration and a Secretary of Agriculture at

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Speaker 2: that time, Dan Glickman. You know from what I've read

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Speaker 2: and from my reporting, people talk about how sympathetic he

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Speaker 2: was to the plight of black farmers. There was a

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Speaker 2: section second settlement for those who didn't make it to

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Speaker 2: the first pick for two, and that happened under the

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Speaker 2: Obama administration and then now under Biden, which has had

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Speaker 2: you know, this administration has had a big focus on

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Speaker 2: racial equity rights, like the Executive Order from day one

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Speaker 2: had a program in the American Rescue Plan at the

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Speaker 2: COVID Relief Bill that was trying to relieve the debts

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Speaker 2: of farmers of color. Ultimately that faced legal challenges, it

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Speaker 2: was rescinded. It was replaced with a new program and

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Speaker 2: the Inflation Reduction Act.

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Speaker 1: So what is the percentage of black farmers that are

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Speaker 1: left in the country.

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Speaker 2: It's less than two percent.

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Speaker 1: It's less than two percent. And has is that largely

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Speaker 1: due to this theft? Is it largely due to big

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Speaker 1: ag right, like these bigger agricultural companies coming in and

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Speaker 1: being able to you know, do land grabs.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, there are a lot of different factors involved, and

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Speaker 2: USDA discrimination is one of them. I mean other factors

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Speaker 2: are I guess also within USDA, but outside of the

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Speaker 2: Lending Department is the Civil Rights Office that has you know,

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Speaker 2: long been ineffective in processing and investigating complaints. It actually

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Speaker 2: closed during or you know what was not effective during

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Speaker 2: the Origan administration. And that's when a lot of the

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Speaker 2: documents from these black farmers were allow There's this also

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, these broader trends in mechanization and farm consolidation. Uh,

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Speaker 2: there's errors property when landowners don't have proper title to

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Speaker 2: their land and are vulnerable to having that land essentially

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Speaker 2: taken from them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just extraordinary, April, this story, this series

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Speaker 1: and like this plight, and I wonder, like what, as

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Speaker 1: you were interviewing these different farmers that have been affected

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Speaker 1: by this, what are your what are your hopes for this,

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Speaker 1: you know, for the new season in terms of like

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Speaker 1: what people learn and get out of it, And is

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Speaker 1: there any type of advocacy that people listening, you know,

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Speaker 1: would be able to to offer or is this just

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Speaker 1: it's the necessity to tell the story.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an important story to tell, especially at

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Speaker 2: this moment right because it's a very tricky legal environment.

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Speaker 2: We're also in a with the Supreme Court case that

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Speaker 2: struck down affirmative action in higher education. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: also just a tricky political environment in terms of doing

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Speaker 2: any kind of race based programming. So I think it's

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Speaker 2: an important historical story to tell. I hope that it

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Speaker 2: is educational for people who are not aware of the

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Speaker 2: apply to black farmers and this very recent history and

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Speaker 2: what's happened under the Abiden administration and the challenges around that,

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Speaker 2: and I just I hope it just complicates the thinking

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Speaker 2: around how we think about, you know, colorblind versus race

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Speaker 2: based remedy.

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Speaker 1: How do you think that the Supreme Court decision around

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Speaker 1: affirmative action will come into play? Because again, these are

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Speaker 1: issues that, while they're couched in you know, secondary education,

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Speaker 1: have ramifications across industry and business, and so how do

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Speaker 1: you think you know that that does come into play

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Speaker 1: moving forward, even if you know you have a you know,

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Speaker 1: sympathetic administration that sees wrongdoing and wants to write it,

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Speaker 1: the ability to actually do that.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's it's tricky for the administration, right because,

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Speaker 2: like you said, they are committed to racial equity and

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Speaker 2: racial justice, and you know, from the American Rescue Plan Act,

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Speaker 2: we know that they were trying to do something to

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Speaker 2: help farmers of color in Particularler. But I also think

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Speaker 2: because of this Supreme Court case, they want to avoid

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Speaker 2: any kind of litigation and are trying to push through

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Speaker 2: efforts that are going to succeed. And granted, the more

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Speaker 2: recent efforts are color blind. But you know, and also

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Speaker 2: we don't actually know, because the data is not being released,

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Speaker 2: how much black farmers or any farmers of color are

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Speaker 2: benefiting from more of the recent programs. But from what

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Speaker 2: we know about loan delinquency and black farmers something like

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Speaker 2: more than fifty percent are delinquent on their loans, we

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Speaker 2: know that they should at least in large part, be

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Speaker 2: benefiting from these programs. So yeah, I think I think

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Speaker 2: they don't want to get sued. They're trying to avoid that.

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Speaker 1: What do you think, like, what stood out to you

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Speaker 1: the most in the people that you talk to and

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Speaker 1: in the research that you did for dis latest season?

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Speaker 1: What got you got what got to you the most

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Speaker 1: in terms of your reporting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've spoken to a lot of black farm advocates,

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Speaker 2: a lot of elder black farmers in particular, who were

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Speaker 2: claimants in the Pickford case, and I'm always struck by

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Speaker 2: their passion after you know, twenty five some odd years,

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Speaker 2: and their commitment to educating me and educating others around

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Speaker 2: this history. And I'm always grateful for the time that

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Speaker 2: people are willing to spend with me on that. And

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Speaker 2: then on the flip side, you know, I've been struck

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Speaker 2: by Nate and his commitment to try to make it

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Speaker 2: as a rancher despite all these odds, despite the history

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Speaker 2: of government discrimination that he kind of walked into right

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Speaker 2: as like a younger farmer. And it's essentially like looming

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Speaker 2: over him and looming over the work that he's tried

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Speaker 2: to do. That discrimination affected his father, and these, you know,

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Speaker 2: broader changes that are happening with the industry are also

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Speaker 2: affecting him. But he's he's trying to make it regardless.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's just, you know, it is a

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Speaker 1: really important story to tell, particularly at a time when

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Speaker 1: you have Republican politicians working to erase any semblance of

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Speaker 1: the truth about America's you know, sounding about injustice and

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Speaker 1: obstacles and discrimination that we're faced. And I think that

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Speaker 1: this is absolutely a story that needs to be told

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Speaker 1: and should be told, and I'm just really thankful that

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Speaker 1: you did tell it. Please tell people, you know, if

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Speaker 1: they want to find out more information on this topic,

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Speaker 1: on this issue, what they can what they can do.

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Speaker 2: Sure so, our show will be on our website at

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Speaker 2: public Integrity dot org and there'll be a collection of

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Speaker 2: stories that publish alongside each podcast episode every Tuesday in October,

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Speaker 2: and those stories are you know, kind of complimentarated each

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Speaker 2: episode and they dig into it a particular issue a

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Speaker 2: little bit deeper. There are you know, a number of

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Speaker 2: advocacy groups. There's there are also books that people could

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Speaker 2: go to for just a deeper knowledge. There's a wonderful

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Speaker 2: book by Pete Daniel called This Possession that is kind

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Speaker 2: of the textbook I think of as a textbook around

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Speaker 2: the ply the Black farmers. And there's like these academic papers,

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Speaker 2: like the paper you referenced around three hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: six billion lost in land and wealth that was done

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Speaker 2: by Thomas Mitchell, a researcher at Boston College and another

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Speaker 2: researcher at University of Massachusetts, Boston. Those would be a

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Speaker 2: couple of good places to start.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, April, thank you so much for taking the

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Speaker 1: time to join ok F Daily, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: this reporting, this really important reporting. We really appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today, Dear friends on Woke

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Speaker 1: ap as always, power to the people and to all

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Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke. As fup