Speaker 1: It was perhaps the first time George White of the
Speaker 1: fourth heard his mother's voice in the four years since
Speaker 1: the family was arrested. Maybe you think that might unknitted. Yes,
Speaker 1: I want the truth from you. Okay, did something happened?
Speaker 1: You can see her attempting to fool you know, everyone
Speaker 1: involved in this. Let's face it, we've got eight dead bodies,
Speaker 1: four separate locations. How in the world do you think
Speaker 1: that you can escape that this is the piked to massacre?
Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County season four, episode fourteen, the matriarch speaks.
Speaker 1: It's important to note that George Wagner the fourth has
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
Speaker 1: His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the previous episode,
Speaker 1: we heard about how law enforcement came to view the
Speaker 1: Wagners as suspects and the murders of the Rodin, Manly
Speaker 1: and Gillie families. Before it was suspicion and things weren't
Speaker 1: adding up. Yes, Lead investigator Ryan Schierer says that changed
Speaker 1: about a year after the homicides, when BCI agents matched
Speaker 1: spent shell casings at the Wagner's home in Peebles. Based
Speaker 1: on that ballistics, evidence agents used search warrants to take
Speaker 1: deep dives into mobile devices used by George Wagner, who's
Speaker 1: on trial for murder his brother Jake, and their parents,
Speaker 1: Billy and Angela Wagner. After originally preparing to intercept the
Speaker 1: Wagners in North Dakota, investigators had to scramble to intercept
Speaker 1: the family at another Canadian border entry point. The Wagners
Speaker 1: were house hunting in Alaska. As they returned, agents intercepted
Speaker 1: them at the Canadian border a year after the murders.
Speaker 1: Now Wagner is used of helping kill eight members of
Speaker 1: the Rodent and Gillie families. Investigators detained the Wagners and
Speaker 1: placed each member of the family in a separate room.
Speaker 1: At this time, I believe you indicated that you were
Speaker 1: going to interview them as suspects instead of your prior
Speaker 1: contacts with them. Correct. The gig was help. I knew
Speaker 1: we were looking at them. While the Wagners were in custody.
Speaker 1: Agencies to laptop and an iPad from their vehicle. Law
Speaker 1: enforcement also placed listening devices in the Wagner's SUV and
Speaker 1: bug their phones. Upon cross examination, John Parker from the
Speaker 1: defense brings up the quality of the audio obtained from
Speaker 1: the bug the agents placed in the Wagner's vehicle. There's
Speaker 1: really nothing useful that came from those listening devices on
Speaker 1: the vehicles at Paris. I did not work as well
Speaker 1: as we hoped. Correct, right, there was nothing useful gata
Speaker 1: on that. Correct. The quality of the audio was less
Speaker 1: than desirable. There was nothing useful game Correct. Here's James Pilcher,
Speaker 1: long time investigative reporter in Cincinnati, now with Local twelve,
Speaker 1: and now it turns out that was kind of a
Speaker 1: snap who too, because the road noise drowned out anything
Speaker 1: they could hear. They really didn't get really much of
Speaker 1: anything out of that except you know, when everybody came out.
Speaker 1: They came out one at a time and they sat
Speaker 1: there and they didn't talk about anything. Normally, if you're
Speaker 1: innocent and you're pulled over and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you get out of a four out or interview, you're
Speaker 1: going to be asking your family members what the heck
Speaker 1: is going on? None of that. Nothing was hurt like
Speaker 1: that on those recordings. Because of the rush to set
Speaker 1: up in Montana as opposed to North Dakota. Agents weren't
Speaker 1: able to videotate the interviews since the bug in the
Speaker 1: vehicle did not pick up usable audio. The audio recordings
Speaker 1: of the interviews at the Canadian border where all the
Speaker 1: investigators had you interviewed, Jake is correct, Yes, myself and
Speaker 1: special agent moltered okay. And do you recall how long
Speaker 1: that interview was across you? Four to six hours? Maybe yes?
Speaker 1: And Judge we would ask that we'd be allowed to
Speaker 1: play Jay Zam to the prosecution of Jack's and Judge
Speaker 1: Dering instructs the jury to leave the room for a
Speaker 1: fifteen minute recess. Judge Jarring asked for the prosecution and
Speaker 1: defense to present their arguments on whether Jake's taped interviews
Speaker 1: should be played for the court. Just the plain reading
Speaker 1: of evidence, Rule eight o one says that the co
Speaker 1: conspirac statment is attributed to the defendant. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of talk of rule eight o one, but the gist
Speaker 1: of it is that the defense cannot introduces evidence another
Speaker 1: co conspirator's testimony during cross only the state is allowed
Speaker 1: to do that. That's the whole nature of the co conspiracy.
Speaker 1: So they all denied it right. That was part of
Speaker 1: the conspiracy, so he does not get to put it now.
Speaker 1: Even when Jay testifies, he certainly can uses to cross
Speaker 1: examine him as a hiring consistent statement. At that point,
Speaker 1: John Parker argues that Jake's testimony is part of the
Speaker 1: defense's constitutional right to present a complete defense lie. The
Speaker 1: co construtive shame is covering up his ass. We shouldn't
Speaker 1: have to we if they call Jee he comes into
Speaker 1: this officer interview, he's probably when it's time to make
Speaker 1: a ruling. Judge Steering decides he needs to hear more argument.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to decide ultimately today whether we're going
Speaker 1: to be able to play that tape in the defense
Speaker 1: side of the case. I'll decide that tomorrow morning, after
Speaker 1: I've heard arguments here. You should be ready about eight
Speaker 1: forty five to go on record and argue that issue,
Speaker 1: and then I'll make that decision. They let the jury
Speaker 1: back into the courtroom and Judge Steering addresses the court, Lady, gentlemen,
Speaker 1: the court. We're going to have an early day close today.
Speaker 1: The court has some things to do that do not
Speaker 1: involve the jury during closes the day early to give
Speaker 1: the defense and prosecution time to prepare for tomorrow's hearing.
Speaker 1: Here again, James Pilcher. So I pretty much shut down
Speaker 1: the trial for the afternoon, and actually the judge held
Speaker 1: it under advisement and said I'll rule on it tomorrow.
Speaker 1: So we're all on pins and needles the next day
Speaker 1: as to whether or not we're gonna have to sit
Speaker 1: through six hours of listening to Ryan and Jake talk
Speaker 1: to each other. News media reports the latest development in
Speaker 1: the trial the defense trying to play Jake Wagner's first
Speaker 1: interrogation tape today, but the prosecution said, wait, you can't
Speaker 1: do that. We have to enter that as evidence first,
Speaker 1: And the judge said, show up here tomorrow morning and
Speaker 1: prepare to argue about it and he'll make a decision then.
Speaker 1: So that brings us to tomorrow. Will jurors hear Jake
Speaker 1: Wagner's five hour interrogation tape, Will they hear Angela Wagner's
Speaker 1: two hour interrogation tape? And how will George the man
Speaker 1: on trial come up in those tapes? But the next morning,
Speaker 1: it's not Jake's interview that makes news. George Wagner the
Speaker 1: fourth providing an explosive audio recording of his mom, Angela's
Speaker 1: interrogation by BCI agents. It was perhaps the first time
Speaker 1: George Whitener the fourth heard his mother's voice in the
Speaker 1: four years since the family was arrested. Before the jury
Speaker 1: has brought in Judge during Here's arguments about whether to
Speaker 1: allow in the audio recording of Jake's interview from when
Speaker 1: the Wagoners were intercepted at the Canadian border. Prosecutor Angie
Speaker 1: Kaneppa lays out her reasons for the objection. Jane made
Speaker 1: a complete time. There was nothing that was taken from
Speaker 1: that interview by Specialty tier that informed next investigative steps.
Speaker 1: So I guess really one question would be for what
Speaker 1: purposes this being requested to be played. Here's John Parker
Speaker 1: with the defense. J Ala has pledged experience experiracy. Well,
Speaker 1: they're Posperiers, all right, series, and even though I didn't
Speaker 1: get it done, this record will reflect Jase Baffards to
Speaker 1: cover us. Finally, Judge Darring makes a ruling, Well, I
Speaker 1: think I understand the arguments involved, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: deny the request of defense to play the tape at
Speaker 1: this time. Here again, James Pilcher. One of the interesting
Speaker 1: things about this day was the prosecution specifically chooses not
Speaker 1: to play the tape of the recording they made with George,
Speaker 1: and there were some questions, Okay, why aren't they playing
Speaker 1: this to show what he was saying at the time.
Speaker 1: As for the strategy of this, we think possibly they're
Speaker 1: not playing it. So if and when George decides to
Speaker 1: take the stand, he can't tailor his testimony to what
Speaker 1: he said at the border. And it's actually part of
Speaker 1: this argument about Jake as well. Jake's recording and they
Speaker 1: say that allows him to testify on his own behalf
Speaker 1: without taking a stand. So that's where that argument comes up,
Speaker 1: and it turns into another legal battle and it's won.
Speaker 1: The prosecution wins with Jake's interview ruled as inadmissible. At
Speaker 1: this point in the trial, the prosecution calls up their
Speaker 1: next witness, he Treasure right hand. Can you solemnly swear
Speaker 1: or a firm that the testimony you're about to give
Speaker 1: show me the truth, the whole truths. I'm nothing about
Speaker 1: the truths as you shall answer and to God. BCI
Speaker 1: Agent Jennifer Commasford has six years experience with the Special
Speaker 1: Investigations Unit in Ohio. BCI She wears a polka dot
Speaker 1: shirt and a blazer with straight brown hair that falls
Speaker 1: to her shoulders. She has relaxed on the stand. Agent
Speaker 1: Commasford was one of the agents present for the searches
Speaker 1: of the Wagner's farm and trailers. She was also on
Speaker 1: the team of agents that interviewed the Wagoners at the
Speaker 1: Canadian border. You treated it like a custodial interview. Tell
Speaker 1: us what that means. We treated it as a custido
Speaker 1: interview and that we mirandized Angela Wagner because we treat
Speaker 1: it as though she was in custody, not free to leave,
Speaker 1: and that she was being interrogated. So we read her
Speaker 1: her miranda rights. You're on her this time. I would
Speaker 1: request to play the recording of Special Agent Thomasford's interview
Speaker 1: with Angela Wagner at the Montana border. The prosecution cues
Speaker 1: up the tape of Angela's interview and begins playing it
Speaker 1: for the jury. The defendant, George Wagner, stares down at
Speaker 1: his feet. But the reason why he was obviously okay
Speaker 1: dealing with all that, all that nobody's going down in
Speaker 1: Pike County, and that's the reason we came up here.
Speaker 1: To get away from all that. Okay, okay, tracing the
Speaker 1: media is all over itself. Have you been following any
Speaker 1: of that of course, yeah, you know. We just want
Speaker 1: to get away from down there and talk outside his
Speaker 1: stale Aisle Pike County. I think it would be best
Speaker 1: for everybody. I have some personal questions for you, though.
Speaker 1: Was the last Oh we love it here again, James Pilcher.
Speaker 1: This recording of Angela is really significant. First of all,
Speaker 1: the first time we heard her voice in the courtroom.
Speaker 1: But second of all, it gives us a sense of
Speaker 1: their state of mind as they're becoming aware that they're
Speaker 1: being suspects, are being treated as suspects. Agent Comasford an
Speaker 1: agent Rick Ward, asked about Angela Wagner's relationship with the
Speaker 1: Rodent family. Relationship I had ridings was to Hannah. Hannah
Speaker 1: and my son Jake were together for five years. Well
Speaker 1: they marry? Yeah? Okay, um did an? I'm getting married? Yes.
Speaker 1: They had a waiting planned, everything was planned out for
Speaker 1: that August that she had everything organized, everything ready, And
Speaker 1: I love that she wasn't break and she did break,
Speaker 1: and well it's hurt of course, Jake. She was love
Speaker 1: with his life where. I mean, my son doesn't take
Speaker 1: anything lately. You know, why are you working? You know
Speaker 1: what I don't know. I know that Hannah was really
Speaker 1: young when her Jake got together. What's the between the two?
Speaker 1: Anna was thirteen, my son was seventeen, sixteen and a
Speaker 1: halfs investigators ask Angela about her relationship with hannahme Rodin. So,
Speaker 1: your relationship with with Hannah was good. I thought she
Speaker 1: was a school wrap. But I thought she was a
Speaker 1: school wrap? How she really was? I mean, no, that's
Speaker 1: that she was your dad let her getting a way. Ever,
Speaker 1: I wish she would give me looks and she would snarl,
Speaker 1: and she would tell Jacob was being mean. And you know,
Speaker 1: but that's typical teenagers. Yeah, all typical. Sometimes mother was
Speaker 1: and ye. The agents bring the conversation back to Jake's
Speaker 1: reaction to Hannah Rodin dating other people. So, when when
Speaker 1: Hannah gets your pregnant with the other Yeah, how to
Speaker 1: make number one with the other boyfriend or boyfriends? And Jake,
Speaker 1: Well one, Jake, they would talk to the other boyfriends. Never, actually, Jake,
Speaker 1: they don't have you ever talked to Charlie Woods? Whenever?
Speaker 1: They support me. When they were determined who the paternity
Speaker 1: test showed that Charlie Gilly and not Jake Wagner, was
Speaker 1: the father of Hannah's second baby. The agents ask if
Speaker 1: Angela was upset about Hannah Ma getting pregnant by another
Speaker 1: man who was not Jake, and even she told me
Speaker 1: she had texted me. When she texted me about being pregnant,
Speaker 1: she was afraid I would be upsetting. I was upset.
Speaker 1: I was upset when she loved Jake. Yeah, here's forensic
Speaker 1: medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. One of striking things about
Speaker 1: this is they began to talk about the fact that
Speaker 1: Hannah had kind of separated her away from the rest
Speaker 1: of the family, had gone out and gotten pregnant by
Speaker 1: another guy. And I really wonder, you know, she says
Speaker 1: that that didn't necessarily upset her. Does anybody actually believe that,
Speaker 1: you know, because I think that it would have been
Speaker 1: Angela's desire to continue to have controlled, you know, Hannah,
Speaker 1: you know, because if you have control over Hannah, you
Speaker 1: have control over the child that she had with Shake.
Speaker 1: BCI agent record as Angela about Billy Wagner's relationship with Hannah.
Speaker 1: Me rowdin with Hannah. Oh god, he loved that girl.
Speaker 1: He caught her his breath, you know, even I mean,
Speaker 1: that's why I always hold Chris, I said, Chris, even
Speaker 1: if they break up, she's still going to be my daughter. Sorry,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to share. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Well,
Speaker 1: we know stuff from interviewing close Wagner family friends that
Speaker 1: they were aware that they were kind of under the
Speaker 1: lens of law and for and that they were kind
Speaker 1: of planning for potentially being interrogated or talked to. And
Speaker 1: so when we hear these recordings, it's so interesting and
Speaker 1: fascinating me. I mean, I don't think this is so
Speaker 1: off the conflict. I think they had a little bit
Speaker 1: of a script in their heads. You're right. But again,
Speaker 1: even if they have a script and they have a plan,
Speaker 1: it's real different when you're separated for the first time
Speaker 1: in being asked and questioned by authorities. This is the moment. This,
Speaker 1: by all accounts, is the moment where authorities collected the
Speaker 1: most data that would be later used against them. We're
Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1: Agents ask Evangela was ever in Chris Rod and Seniors
Speaker 1: trailer trailer one time? I don't know. Well, listen, limits
Speaker 1: four four years ago. I don't like sitting only counting
Speaker 1: that this much. Don't care one know, it's his dolts
Speaker 1: over great, you know, I mean, but no, I don't
Speaker 1: like dogs. Dogs at least I mean friendly. You don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about anything like that. No, you you
Speaker 1: have to. Okay, let's basicing. Uh if he's there, you're okay. Okay,
Speaker 1: chance is hit bull it love you doll so way
Speaker 1: as he can be all the home, Okay, Jake, Jake's
Speaker 1: got me get every times by chance. I mean, I
Speaker 1: didn't bite his butt off. She was not particularly a
Speaker 1: fan of the Rodents. Sounds like I thought they were
Speaker 1: too messy. I thought, you know, she never went over
Speaker 1: to Christine or she went over once for the Fourth
Speaker 1: of July party and it was too smoky and there
Speaker 1: was too much dog air everywhere. Agents then bring it
Speaker 1: back to the murders, so we occurs, What were your
Speaker 1: initial thoughts? What was horrified? Hannah had just been to
Speaker 1: my house just days before the murders. Angela Wagner says
Speaker 1: that Hanname Rodin came by to show her new baby
Speaker 1: to Jake, George and Angela, Okay, everything cool. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: was making fun of Jake because he had tried to
Speaker 1: dye his hair a little darker brown and then turned
Speaker 1: out more black, and she was was making fun of baby,
Speaker 1: you know, about his hair and stuff. And no, we were,
Speaker 1: I mean, everything was fine. Investigators bringing the interview back
Speaker 1: to the day after the murders, the news like in
Speaker 1: the morning or you know what, I don't know it was.
Speaker 1: It was morning, how an the news? And were you
Speaker 1: guys together? Yeah, Angela tells the agents she was with
Speaker 1: Billy at the Peterson Road residence when she heard the
Speaker 1: news about the Rodents being murdered. What was Jake's response
Speaker 1: when he is trying when he heard the new you
Speaker 1: guys all together? He was outsight. Agents ask Angela why
Speaker 1: she thinks the trailers on her farm were searched by authorities. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is the part that we gave him everything they
Speaker 1: needed and then you know, we get halfway up the
Speaker 1: road and they're down on our searching the farm and
Speaker 1: then I'm sorry what they get to our stuff and
Speaker 1: our framers is ridiculous. All they had done and say,
Speaker 1: hey we want to search, I'd open the door, you know,
Speaker 1: search I don't love in the high Angela Wagner is
Speaker 1: then asked if there was a written custody agreement between
Speaker 1: Jake and Hannime Rodin. Now, was there any type of
Speaker 1: living will or anything like if something were to happen,
Speaker 1: And this is what we're you know, you have no
Speaker 1: idea what you have that someone I want to show
Speaker 1: you here again, James Pilcher. We saw it in how
Speaker 1: they circled around with Billy, and we saw the same
Speaker 1: kind of approach. They obviously had the shoe print stuff.
Speaker 1: They obviously had the receipt, they obviously had the shell casings.
Speaker 1: It takes them two to three hours to get to
Speaker 1: the point where they're presenting that in front of them.
Speaker 1: The investigator pulls out a document and places it in
Speaker 1: front of Angela Wagner. They are okay, hey, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't remember that. The document appears to be a custody
Speaker 1: agreement saying that in the event of Hannahme Rodin's death,
Speaker 1: that custody of her daughter would go to Jake Wagner.
Speaker 1: It appears to have Hannah's signature on the forum. The
Speaker 1: detectives tell Angela they found it in her trailer. This
Speaker 1: is what we're curious about them, and it was do
Speaker 1: you know who that is? So your mom will arise,
Speaker 1: but you didn't know about it. I don't remember it. Okay,
Speaker 1: here again, Stephanie and Jeff. This is unbelievable to be
Speaker 1: hearing for the first time. She's speaking so casually, and
Speaker 1: she's talking so cavalierly about her relationship with the road
Speaker 1: Ins and Billy's relationship with Hannah May, and it all
Speaker 1: sounds kind of cozy. Yeah. We covered in season one
Speaker 1: of the podcast when Angela Wagner made that public Facebook
Speaker 1: post right after the murders, calling Hannah May wrote in
Speaker 1: a daughter to her hoping to catch the monsters who
Speaker 1: did this, And this interview is like that post on steroids?
Speaker 1: How do you not crack under the pressure. My biggest
Speaker 1: takeaway from these recordings is that the Wagner family, at
Speaker 1: least Angela in this instance, really thought they announce our pool.
Speaker 1: The document was notarized by Angela's mother, Rita Newcome. The
Speaker 1: agents continue to press Angela on the forged custody agreement
Speaker 1: that they found in her trailer, but we're just trying
Speaker 1: to figure out, um this this is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1: It printed out three, three weeks before the work and
Speaker 1: you said you yeah, okay, I I I. They did
Speaker 1: have those documents and they were able to clearly show, hey,
Speaker 1: they're signed here, but they were clearly printed out here
Speaker 1: on this day from this website. Blank, How do you
Speaker 1: explain that there was printed out a week before the
Speaker 1: murders and yet they've got a date two years before?
Speaker 1: How do you how do you explain this? So I
Speaker 1: can't remember I didn't do it. The agents ask if
Speaker 1: Jake Billy or George Wagner could have done the murders.
Speaker 1: So I'm asking you, may you think that my son
Speaker 1: or I'm asking you, okay, can you tell me definitively no, yes,
Speaker 1: I can. How you definitively know? Because one of my
Speaker 1: son would knew that. I said he had nothing against he,
Speaker 1: he had nothing handsome and even though him and Hannah
Speaker 1: Brook it wasn't enough for that. Agents show Angela Wagner
Speaker 1: photos of foot impressions made in blood found at the
Speaker 1: crime scene. So what we have the time wise, they
Speaker 1: have a database like we do fendis okay, And what
Speaker 1: we can do is we can take any shoe tread
Speaker 1: in the world and I identify the manufacturer in the size.
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner is then showed a pair of shoes. Don't
Speaker 1: ever remember bios for any reason. I remember seeing those.
Speaker 1: I know, No, I see Dad have some of that.
Speaker 1: The agents then show Angela a receipt. We have a
Speaker 1: receipt for those shoes purchased by you. Okay, I purchas,
Speaker 1: I got them, but I don't. They are in a
Speaker 1: man's shoes, so they wouldn't wear them. But they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have used them on those because I threw them away.
Speaker 1: But so you remember buying them two weeks before, Yes,
Speaker 1: I purchased them. That I am telling you. They didn't
Speaker 1: like them. They wouldn't wear them. You know, they wanted
Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. They always wear boots. Hook you do.
Speaker 1: I bought them and they didn't. I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: The agents show Angela a photo of her coming out
Speaker 1: of Walmart the day she purchased the shoes. It was
Speaker 1: caught on security camera in the car. Did you go
Speaker 1: to did you go with the kids? I mean you
Speaker 1: look alone in that picture when you went to Walmart
Speaker 1: to buy that stuff back in April two thousand and sixty. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're alone, but I don't know that you're alone getting
Speaker 1: back in the car. You're not. No, I was not
Speaker 1: the one. Who are you? Yeah? I know the kids
Speaker 1: was given sleeping weird than what we would have been
Speaker 1: in the hardently the name of that, I think I
Speaker 1: think we were all on the farm that I can
Speaker 1: remember that one. Okay, two weeks before the homicide, you
Speaker 1: purchased two pairs of shoes which identically match bloody footprints
Speaker 1: in a crime scene. Okay, that's another report from the
Speaker 1: shoe confirming to match the treads. The database. They pourn
Speaker 1: up with the shoe tread to verify the match. This
Speaker 1: is a lab work from the case agents present another
Speaker 1: lab report to Angelo Agner, and I've done a coole match.
Speaker 1: There were casinges recovered from several of the crime scenes. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: various calibers, Yeah, okay, these identically match these shell casings
Speaker 1: in your drove away. Okay, one twos were five from
Speaker 1: the same gun that killed There's no way Angel exa
Speaker 1: identical match. There's no way that they were. There's no way.
Speaker 1: We have everyone in our ballistics lab, every expert, every
Speaker 1: fire experts review and confirmed is an identical match. You
Speaker 1: do know We're not the only ones that shot guns
Speaker 1: that are half making. They're all people down Ever, the
Speaker 1: time span we've been them, there's been several people down there.
Speaker 1: Angel and Casings are a definitive match on a blueprint.
Speaker 1: And I understand what you're saying on that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a blueprint. When I fire, When I fire my
Speaker 1: weapon mind issue gun, and it ejects around. Okay, uses
Speaker 1: somewhere else. That's an identical marriage. James Pilcher. One thing
Speaker 1: that strikes me in these interviews, in this tape with
Speaker 1: Angela is how her demeanor changes the minute they show
Speaker 1: her the stuff about the shoes, the bullets, the shell
Speaker 1: case things, all of that. She han't an answer for it,
Speaker 1: but you can almost see based on her voice change
Speaker 1: and everything else, and how she starts to be hammering
Speaker 1: and pawing and hemming and all of that the minute
Speaker 1: they present that, how it her demeanor changes. She communally
Speaker 1: gets defensive. Sell a huge, huge moment there, Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1: They've lived in a bubble. It's it's very it's protected
Speaker 1: from everything else from the outside the world. Suddenly you
Speaker 1: know that bubble is no longer existent. You understand that
Speaker 1: somebody has penetrated, and somebody's penetrated that you don't have
Speaker 1: any control over, and you've been able to control all
Speaker 1: these other people in this environment, and maybe for the
Speaker 1: first time, fear sets him. At that moment, you think
Speaker 1: you've got all the basis covered. You know, you're running
Speaker 1: off the wal Mart by shoes. You're just you're doing
Speaker 1: all this and you're trying to work your logistical magic here,
Speaker 1: and suddenly somebody's penetrated, and suddenly you realize there's actually
Speaker 1: somebody that's smarter than you that's in the run. But
Speaker 1: I love the truth from you. Okay, did something happen? No,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm aware of nothing happens. There's you said,
Speaker 1: you're you told me ten minutes ago. You're definitively sure.
Speaker 1: I am definitive. There's there's too much definitive after all this,
Speaker 1: all that we have, casings of us, we have the
Speaker 1: same there will use it to pracy that will shot
Speaker 1: at your house. We have shoes. I guess the bottom
Speaker 1: line is we have all this. You can understand how
Speaker 1: this appears? Yes, I see, And this is if you're
Speaker 1: gonna have any chance to talk with us about what happened.
Speaker 1: What knowledge you have is now Angelia and not being
Speaker 1: a I can tell why the way you're talking. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just just I'm gonna shop. I'm just gonna stop. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't no, I'm just I'm just gonna stop right here,
Speaker 1: and you I can give that hern That's what I'm
Speaker 1: going to do because I don't know. I'm just going
Speaker 1: to say more. Agents stop the interview and the recording.
Speaker 1: Here's James Pilcher, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan. I mean
Speaker 1: you could see it right as soon as they started
Speaker 1: presenting her the hard evidence, she clammed up. She's like,
Speaker 1: I need a lawyer. Suddenly, all of that planning that
Speaker 1: she's done to purchasing the controlling of everybody, suddenly that's
Speaker 1: becoming unraveled. She knows she at least has enough of
Speaker 1: a survival instinct about her at that point in time.
Speaker 1: She knows that she needs to reach out her counsel,
Speaker 1: and I mean quick, because the thing is spinning in
Speaker 1: a flat spin and it's gonna it's gonna turn out poorly. Forward,
Speaker 1: let's stop here for another break. After hearing the interview
Speaker 1: with Angelo Wagner and its entirety. John Parker with the defense,
Speaker 1: gets up for cross examination. He asks Agent Thomasford about
Speaker 1: Angelo Wagner's home in Bethel Hill, where she lived with
Speaker 1: her family for a time. Were you aware that she
Speaker 1: was involved as a fraudulent arsons? I recall some limited
Speaker 1: information about their being arson, He claims. Did you know
Speaker 1: that one of the houses that burned down that she
Speaker 1: had built out a marijuana grow room in the basement
Speaker 1: in her direction? I don't know that I was aware
Speaker 1: of that at Buffalhill, now all right? Were you aware
Speaker 1: of her dog breeding business, that she fraudently represented the
Speaker 1: dogs with pure bread when they were not No, I
Speaker 1: was not aware of that. Now, and Angela told you
Speaker 1: that Jake was devastated at the news of Hannah's death. Yes,
Speaker 1: she did say that, and you later learned that Jake
Speaker 1: is actually one of the shot hand and killed her.
Speaker 1: You learned fair to say, Angels have been very deceitful
Speaker 1: about many things. I would say that she's been deceitful
Speaker 1: about things. Yes. At that point, you know, the defense
Speaker 1: goes to the BCI agent who conducted the interview, asking her, Hey,
Speaker 1: did you ask her about the dog breeding business? Did
Speaker 1: you ask her about the Arsons. Did you ask about
Speaker 1: the marijuana business? They said, no, we were trying to
Speaker 1: solve the murder, but they were I think trying to
Speaker 1: sow seeds of doubt about the effectiveness of the investigation,
Speaker 1: or at least the effectiveness of the questions that they asked.
Speaker 1: She asks Agent Commisford if any members of the Wagner
Speaker 1: family had concerns about the Rodents having custody of the
Speaker 1: child that Jake and Hannah shared. My understanding is there
Speaker 1: were concerns on the part of the Wagner family that
Speaker 1: would become under the custody of the Rodent family. So
Speaker 1: did you know which of the Wagners had those concerns,
Speaker 1: specifically Angela, Jake, George, and Billy. They're building to this
Speaker 1: conspiracy that it wasn't just a couple of people, it
Speaker 1: was the entire family. And this family is such that
Speaker 1: if one person knows it, all four of them know it.
Speaker 1: So they're still building to this. They're driving to Alaska,
Speaker 1: six of them with two little kids in one car,
Speaker 1: across country, thousands of miles together. How would they be
Speaker 1: able to be that close and share their findings and
Speaker 1: all of that, and yet not know about killing eight
Speaker 1: people and planning to kill eight people and building the
Speaker 1: guns to kill eight people and all of that. Special
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa redirects. You were asked it appeared that
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner was alone when she was in the store
Speaker 1: purchasing those shoes, and your response was what it was
Speaker 1: my understanding inside the store that she was alone. Yes,
Speaker 1: when she was outside of the store was alone. And
Speaker 1: when you based out video evidence, Okay, specifically she went
Speaker 1: into the back of that vehicle, yes, correct, So who
Speaker 1: was with Angelo Adner when she bought the shoes at Walmart?
Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker,
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Andrew ar Now a Real Castillo
Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tis.
Speaker 1: Music by Jared Aston. The Piked in Masacre is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Kati Studios. For more podcasts from
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