1
00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: Clifton T. Perkins Hospital in Jessup, Maryland is a sprawling,

2
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: nondescript building, surrounded by forests and located on forty five acres.

3
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 1: The forensic psychiatric hospital has grown in size since its

4
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,960
Speaker 1: construction in nineteen fifty nine. Today, the nearly three hundred

5
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: bed facility is mostly home to patients who are charged

6
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 1: with a violent felony and have been either deemed incompetent

7
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 1: to stand trial or not criminally responsible, or an inmate

8
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 1: too mentally ill to be in prison. One of those

9
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,880
Speaker 1: patients is Catherine Hoggell.

10
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 2: She's a patient at this point and not a prisoner.

11
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Troy Turner is right, Perkins, as it's known, isn't a prison,

12
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 1: but the mostly maximum security hospital would sure feel like

13
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: one of you lived there. Maximum security patients can have

14
00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 1: limited ability to roam the building and grounds, and all

15
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 1: patient buildings are surrounded by security fences. Even with this

16
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: focus on security, last year, Perkins made the news after

17
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: a union representing workers at the hospital claim that assaults

18
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,640
Speaker 1: on both patients and staff had become routine. But despite

19
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 1: the conditions the restrictions on Catherine's movement, Troy Turner, the

20
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,919
Speaker 1: father of the two children Catherine is accused of killing.

21
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: Doesn't think Perkins is where his ex partner should be.

22
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 2: I think that she should be punished to the greatest

23
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 2: extent that the law would allow. I think that she

24
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,160
Speaker 2: should stand trial like anyone who murders two children should

25
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,920
Speaker 2: stand trial. And I think that she should go to

26
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,040
Speaker 2: jail and go to prison.

27
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: In earlier episodes, we talked about the complications police can

28
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 1: run into when they are investigating a crime, especially when

29
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 1: missing children are involved, that they have to balance the

30
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 1: rights of the suspect with the urgency of solving the crime.

31
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 1: And in Catherine's case, it was even more complicated because

32
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 1: of her mental illness as police tried to find out

33
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,040
Speaker 1: where she had taken her children, three year old Sarah

34
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: and two year old Jacob. But that added complication doesn't

35
00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: stop once a person is arrested. It just continues as

36
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 1: they make their way through the justice system, and there

37
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,799
Speaker 1: is a sense that it's at this point, as the

38
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: accused is forced to answer for their crimes, that justice

39
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 1: will be meted out. But that's not how things have

40
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,359
Speaker 1: gone in this case. For nine years, Troy has been

41
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: living at the intersection of these systems as he contests

42
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,239
Speaker 1: Catherine's incompetency and advocates for what he considers justice for

43
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: his children. He wants Catherine found competent to stand trial.

44
00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 1: He wants the evidence against her presented in a courtroom.

45
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,720
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Karas and this is Unrestorable, an original podcast

46
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio.

47
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 3: We come from this very puritan kind of heritage in

48
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,640
Speaker 3: our culture, and we're very punitive.

49
00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,959
Speaker 1: This again, is tes Neil, a forensic psychologist at Iowa

50
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 1: State University who researches how the justice system copes with

51
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:21,240
Speaker 1: the mentally ill.

52
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 3: We have just an extraordinarily high rate of incarceration in

53
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,520
Speaker 3: this country and a kind of political narrative that we

54
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,520
Speaker 3: are tough on crime and we want to make sure

55
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 3: that people don't get away with things. Then we also

56
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 3: have this still pretty stigmatizing view of mental illness.

57
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 1: I agree with Tess. For eight years as a prosecutor

58
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 1: in New York City, I was on the front lines

59
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 1: of this problem. Our prisons are full of people who

60
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 1: are mentally ill. In fact, the National Alliance on Mental

61
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,800
Speaker 1: Illness says that two million people with mental illnesses are

62
00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 1: admitted to US jails each year. Is not in jail.

63
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: She's in a hospital, and until she can be declared

64
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: healthy enough to help her defense attorney, she's not going

65
00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: to have to defend herself against criminal charges before a

66
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 1: judge or jury or face the threat of a prison sentence.

67
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,160
Speaker 1: And for Troy, that's the only way to get any justice.

68
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 1: But you have to wonder why, why isn't being locked

69
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,600
Speaker 1: up in a maximum security institution where your freedom is

70
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 1: definitely restricted. Why isn't that a form of justice, especially

71
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 1: since it's very clear that Catherine does suffer from mental

72
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,240
Speaker 1: health issues.

73
00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,840
Speaker 4: You know, I know, one of the questions raised by

74
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,560
Speaker 4: this case in other cases involving competency, is whether the

75
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,200
Speaker 4: criminal justice system adequately protects us from the mentally ill.

76
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 1: My co host Sarah Trelevin was with me when we

77
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:50,839
Speaker 1: interviewed tes Neil.

78
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 4: But there's also clearly another question to be asked about

79
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,400
Speaker 4: whether the criminal justice system served the interests of and

80
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 4: protects the mentally ill themselves. What do you think about

81
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,599
Speaker 4: the balance of those two ideas.

82
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,120
Speaker 3: So, on the one hand, lawyers and the system has

83
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,719
Speaker 3: this kind of foundational assumption of how the process works,

84
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,200
Speaker 3: that we're in an adversarial system and the way we

85
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 3: work is that each party gets to offer their best

86
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 3: version of the facts with a narrative, and I get

87
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,000
Speaker 3: to provide their evidence, and the truth will out right.

88
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,400
Speaker 3: So through that process, whatever the truth is, it's going

89
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 3: to come to the fore. But when you have a

90
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 3: situation where somebody is not a great advocate for themselves,

91
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 3: whether it be because of mental illness or other reasons,

92
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 3: sometimes that attorney is in a difficult philosophical ethical dilemma

93
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 3: between whether they're advocating for what the client is asking for,

94
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 3: which may not be in their best interests as a

95
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,159
Speaker 3: human being, right, and so like, maybe they do need treatment,

96
00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 3: maybe they are mentally ill, and so there's definitely parentalistic

97
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,160
Speaker 3: legal representation where maybe that's in the best interest of

98
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,919
Speaker 3: the but it's not consistent with the system of justice

99
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 3: as we have designed it. And so that's a hard

100
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 3: problem and it's not solved.

101
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 1: This hard problem is not new. The insanity defense has

102
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,279
Speaker 1: been used in the US since at least the mid

103
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Since then, the laws have been reformed and

104
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,479
Speaker 1: case law has been codified. But remember, Catherine is not

105
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,360
Speaker 1: asserting an insanity defense. She can't do that or won't

106
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 1: do that until she's before a judge preparing for trial,

107
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,720
Speaker 1: and she has to be found competent before that can happen.

108
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,040
Speaker 1: For years, Catherine appeared before judges who accepted reports from

109
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,240
Speaker 1: doctors that she was responding to medication and could likely

110
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: become competent in the foreseeable future. After all, that was

111
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 1: the goal to restore her to competence so she could

112
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:59,279
Speaker 1: go to trial. This distinction, this idea that one cannot

113
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,520
Speaker 1: be tried one cannot help with one's own defense, comes

114
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 1: from a nineteen sixty U. S Supreme Court decision. It

115
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,960
Speaker 1: involved a man with a history of mental illness named

116
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,480
Speaker 1: Milton Richard Dusky, who was found guilty of the attempted

117
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 1: rape of a young girl and sentenced to forty five years.

118
00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 1: He appealed. In ordering a new competency hearing, the US

119
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,320
Speaker 1: Supreme Court laid out the test that is still used today.

120
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,200
Speaker 1: A defendant must properly understand the proceedings against him and

121
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: possess the present ability to assist counsel in his defense.

122
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 1: Dusky was retried, reconvicted, and his new sentence reduced to

123
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: twenty years.

124
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 5: Incompetence is a present state.

125
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 1: This is Catherine's lawyer, David Felson.

126
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,000
Speaker 5: Someone is incompetent now, which means that they can't make

127
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 5: for the for whatever reason, can't make the various decisions

128
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,760
Speaker 5: necessary to assist in their defense, or that they understand

129
00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 5: what's going on in court. We don't try those people

130
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 5: for any crime because they can't defend themselves. They don't

131
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 5: know what's going on. Relative to the legal process.

132
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 1: Rules around mentally ill criminals continue to evolve, and in

133
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, the US Supreme Court held that you

134
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 1: cannot hold someone for an indefinite amount of time in

135
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 1: the hopes of restoring one's competency.

136
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 6: There's a statute that now limits and I think most

137
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 6: states have in this, but there's a limited period of

138
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 6: time that you have to restore somebody to confidence.

139
00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,079
Speaker 1: John McCarthy is the state's attorney in Montgomery County, Maryland.

140
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 6: That timeframe has been more severely limited in Maryland in

141
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 6: more recent times. For instance, it used to be ten years,

142
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,920
Speaker 6: now it's five years. On felonies.

143
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,319
Speaker 1: For misdemeanors, it's three, which is why Catherine has been

144
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: held for so many years now. She was initially held

145
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 1: on misdemeanor charges for almost three years, but before that

146
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 1: three year window had expired. A grand jury indicted her

147
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 1: for murder, and the state dismissed the lesser charges. Catherine

148
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 1: was soon found incompetent to stand trial again, and that

149
00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 1: started a five year clock which has loomed ever since.

150
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 1: And this is where Troy finds himself.

151
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,520
Speaker 2: We're going, okay, we have this slock ticking.

152
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: If Catherine cannot be restored to competence, then she will

153
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,960
Speaker 1: either be civilly committed if a judge finds her to

154
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 1: be a danger to herself or others, or released, but

155
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 1: she will not face murder charges for now because those

156
00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:41,599
Speaker 1: will be dismissed.

157
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 2: It's hard to kind of look at her and know

158
00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 2: what she did and know that she might be accountable for,

159
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 2: you know, and that there's a good chance that she'll

160
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,079
Speaker 2: never be held accountable the way the system's working right now.

161
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 2: And I'm just looking at her, going this is crazy,

162
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 2: and there's nothing that we can do about it at

163
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 2: this point right now.

164
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,559
Speaker 1: But it has to be made clear. Catherine is an outlier.

165
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,120
Speaker 1: Most defendants who are found incompetent are restored and end

166
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 1: up in a courtroom. Most of them do not run

167
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:14,720
Speaker 1: out the clock.

168
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,439
Speaker 3: The best estimate we have is that something like seventy

169
00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 3: five percent of people will be restored within I think

170
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 3: a year, and typically that is through taking psychotropic medication.

171
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 3: And typically it's even faster than a year. Typically it's

172
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,320
Speaker 3: within six months because medication typically works, you know, within

173
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 3: a month or two.

174
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 1: For Troy, the father of Sarah and Jacob, the man

175
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,839
Speaker 1: who nine years ago lost his two youngest children and

176
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,080
Speaker 1: still today has no idea where they are or what

177
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 1: happened to them, none of this sits well with him.

178
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 2: She manipulated the system. She manipulated the staff at Perkins.

179
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,760
Speaker 2: The nursing knows. The nurse say that she knows that

180
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 2: they The nurses are like, she's manipulating you guys. Basically

181
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 2: they are writing to the purpose doctors that they're being

182
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,439
Speaker 2: manipulated as she's lying and just doesn't matter.

183
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 1: According to Troy and other members of the family, Catherine

184
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 1: has been almost brazen about her plans to remain incompetent

185
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,280
Speaker 1: long enough to see the murder charges against her dismissed.

186
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 1: Do you think it's possible for someone to fake incompetency,

187
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 1: and I mean just anybody.

188
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 5: I think it's possible.

189
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm speaking with Catherine's attorney, David Felson.

190
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 5: I mean not in this case, not with these symptoms,

191
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,719
Speaker 5: not for this period of time, not under these circumstances,

192
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 5: not taking these medications, not getting these therapies. But could

193
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 5: somebody fake it? Sure, Beth, you could fake it.

194
00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: I asked Catherine's lawyer to describe the symptoms he's talking about.

195
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,200
Speaker 1: He wouldn't go into great detail, but told me he

196
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 1: had represented her in the past for a minor traffic infraction,

197
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,440
Speaker 1: and the contrast between Catherine then and when he met

198
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 1: her right after her arrest in twenty fourteen was profound.

199
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: That there was a clear disconnect between the circumstances that

200
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,440
Speaker 1: she found herself in and the way she would react

201
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,800
Speaker 1: to people. That Catherine's eyes were darting around the room,

202
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 1: that she spoke in hushed tones, and that she was

203
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,840
Speaker 1: obviously paranoid and delusional. Her hair was so messy it

204
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 1: looked like she had been living on the street for days.

205
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: Catherine knew she was facing murder charges because that part

206
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: of competency she passed. I mean she understood it.

207
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, we conceded that, yes, Catherine is not stupid. I

208
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 5: think that most people have a profound misconception of incompetency

209
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 5: to stand trial. They think of incompetency when they hear

210
00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 5: that word. Their initial vision is someone who is incoherent,

211
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,920
Speaker 5: unable to communicate, sitting in the corner of a room, drooling,

212
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,559
Speaker 5: banging their head against the wall, and looking at imaginary

213
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 5: butterflies and soiling themselves. That person would clearly be incompetent.

214
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 5: But that is not the only definition of incompetence, and

215
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 5: competence to stand trial is a much more complicated, nuanced circumstance.

216
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,560
Speaker 1: And here again we bump into the intersection of two

217
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,960
Speaker 1: competing systems.

218
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,000
Speaker 3: It's a perennial question in forensic cases like this, where

219
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 3: there's some question of mental illness, it's intersecting with the

220
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 3: legal issue.

221
00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 1: It's something that test Neil has spent a lot of

222
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 1: time thinking about.

223
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 3: Malingering is when somebody is thinking some kind of mental

224
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,360
Speaker 3: illness in an effort to have their criminal charges dismiss.

225
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,080
Speaker 3: When clinicians are trying to assess from a one of

226
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,080
Speaker 3: the things you're trying to assess for is well, what's

227
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:03,640
Speaker 3: the motivation?

228
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: Troy says he definitely knows Catherine's motivation.

229
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 2: She knows is action.

230
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:10,840
Speaker 5: What's going on there?

231
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 7: And I'm not saying that, you know, just as the

232
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,200
Speaker 7: father of these kids who wants justice. I'm saying that

233
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 7: as someone who knows her, who has spoken with her

234
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 7: since she has been locked up. You know, at times,

235
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 7: and she doesn't appear to be any less cognizant of

236
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 7: the situation than she was whenever she was explaining the

237
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 7: entire system to me and telling me a rundown of

238
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 7: how long she has to wait and be incompetent to

239
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 7: get out.

240
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 1: It's a complicated problem. The medical system Catherine is in

241
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 1: is actively trying to get her healthy, healthy enough to

242
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 1: stand trial. But that system is supported by doctors and nurses,

243
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 1: and it raises questions about doing no harm. Should mental

244
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: health professionals help make incompetent people well just so the

245
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 1: system can prosecute them.

246
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,400
Speaker 3: What are the ethics of treating somebody a human being

247
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 3: to then enable the legal system to prosecute that person.

248
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,720
Speaker 1: It gets even more complicated when you consider the death penalty.

249
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: Catherine is not facing the death penalty. It was abolished

250
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,640
Speaker 1: in Maryland in twenty thirteen, only one year before Catherine

251
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 1: is accused of killing her kids, But the American Psychiatric

252
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 1: Association has weighed in on the question of restoring someone's competency.

253
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 1: If there is a threat of execution, that person.

254
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 3: Has to be restored to competency before they can be executed.

255
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 3: The American Psychiatric Association has come out very firmly against

256
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 3: physicians being involved in that process. They have said it

257
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 3: is against the hippocratic oath. It is unethical for a

258
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 3: psychiatrist to provide treatment in that situation, to aid a

259
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 3: person to restore their confidence to become competent for execution.

260
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,040
Speaker 3: But it's still a thorny ethical problem because sometimes people

261
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 3: who are very psych practically ill are suffering, and so

262
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,160
Speaker 3: there's also this hippocratic oath problem of not helping the

263
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 3: person when they are suffering. So it gets very complicated

264
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 3: at these intersection of systems, especially in that situation.

265
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 1: And again, while Catherine is not facing the death penalty,

266
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 1: Troy does believe that the doctors at Perkins are protecting her,

267
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 1: helping her maintain incompetency rather than treating her.

268
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 2: There is no therapy for them at Perkins until they

269
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 2: are competent. So if you're profoundly mentally I don't know

270
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 2: how they expect to bring you to competence or have

271
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 2: you get better if they're not giving you therapy. That

272
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 2: makes no sense to me.

273
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,360
Speaker 1: At Catherine's latest competency hearing, the evaluating doctor from Perkins

274
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 1: testified that Catherine was not in one on one therapy

275
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 1: since that's usually reserved for patients who have resolved their

276
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: legal situation. We reached out to the Maryland Department of

277
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: Health to find out more about why an ist patient,

278
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 1: that is, someone incompetent to stay trial at Perkins might

279
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 1: not receive one on one therapy and an effort to

280
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: restore them to competency. We were told that it depends

281
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 1: on the patient and their treatment plan. But Lucy and Parsley,

282
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 1: an attorney with disability Rights Maryland, has a different take.

283
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 1: Based on her experience. She believes Perkins may actually discourage

284
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,640
Speaker 1: individual therapy for patients being restored to competency.

285
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 8: Perkins believes that the individual might say or do something

286
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,920
Speaker 8: with respect to their case that might cause the staff

287
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 8: to be subpoenaed and testify against them, and they don't

288
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,400
Speaker 8: want to do anything that could put the person at

289
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 8: more risk of being convicted.

290
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,440
Speaker 1: Parsley is troubled by this lack of therapy.

291
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 9: We see people who are really suffering because many of

292
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 9: them have experienced traumas in their life. They're not getting

293
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,719
Speaker 9: trauma therapy, they're not getting PTSD therapy, they're you know,

294
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 9: getting medication if they would agree to take it in

295
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,160
Speaker 9: the hospitals, but they're also kept on the most restrictive

296
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 9: levels in the hospitals.

297
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 1: This illustrates that complicated intersection of the justice system and

298
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 1: the treatment of the mentally ill, and a conflict even

299
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 1: with those presumably on the same side. It's so interesting

300
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 1: because your organization, Disability Rights Maryland is interested in the

301
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 1: individual and getting them the care they need if they're suffering,

302
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,879
Speaker 1: like you say, from trauma, but they're not getting that

303
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 1: proper care. But the hospital Perkins also feels like they're

304
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: doing something in the best interests of the patient by

305
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,360
Speaker 1: withholding treatment so that they're not prosecuted.

306
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that is probably true.

307
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 1: But to Troy, this is all irrelevant. The real truth

308
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: of the matter is Troy does not believe Catherine is

309
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 1: incompetent at all. He believed that she is in fact

310
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 1: well aware of the situation and is waiting things out,

311
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 1: and he says she's being very deliberate about it.

312
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 2: So on one side, you have inconfident, it goes to treatment,

313
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 2: it goes down.

314
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,639
Speaker 1: Troy is describing a sort of drawing that Catherine made.

315
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 1: It was on a handout that Perkins gave Patience to

316
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 1: explain the legal process. At the very top, there's a

317
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 1: cartoonish drawing of a police officer blowing a whistle, his

318
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: baton raised in the air like he's chasing down a suspect.

319
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 1: Just below there's a drawing of an inmate wearing the

320
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 1: classic striped prison guard, looking dejected behind bars in a

321
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: concrete cell. Troy wants me to notice what Catherine added.

322
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 2: If you look on there, even in terms of incoonfident,

323
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 2: where it says not guilty, and there's a home she

324
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 2: actually wrote streets on there, and then you have where

325
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 2: being convicted, Lisa Jell NCR leads to where you would

326
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 2: be home by then as an incompetent person.

327
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 1: NCR stands for not criminally responsible, what we commonly know

328
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: as not guilty by reason of insanity. For the pathways

329
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 1: that lead Catherine out of jail and eventually out of Perkins.

330
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 1: Katherine has drawn a cute little house, a curl of

331
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: smoke coming from the chimney.

332
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 2: It's literally just laid out as instructions, here's how you

333
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 2: get home at some point.

334
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: According to this drawing, the paths are clear. Being found

335
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 1: competent and then guilty leads to prison. Remaining incompetent and

336
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: receiving ongoing treatment. Never facing the court system leads to

337
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 1: that cute cartoon house look.

338
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 6: When they give you a diagram, literally give you a

339
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 6: diagram that basically says paths to get out of jail

340
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 6: and a path to go to prison.

341
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: It doesn't sit well with Montgomery County State's Attorney John

342
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: McCarthy either.

343
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 6: And they explain to you on a diagram that she

344
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 6: color codes that was an exhibit, and she discussed it

345
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 6: with her husband. She knew exactly which road would keep

346
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 6: her out of jail.

347
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 4: What are the some of the signs that that practitioners

348
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 4: look for that someone is malingering. What would be a tell.

349
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 3: Just behavioral consistency across time and across context and situation.

350
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 3: So what's the person acting like in their conversations and

351
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 3: behaviors with family members and friends if they're in custody.

352
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 3: What is their behavior like in custody? What are the

353
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 3: treatment providers who are seeing them in that environment? And

354
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 3: the people who are seeing them on the unit all

355
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 3: the time, what are their notes like on a daily basis.

356
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 3: If you find consistency that the person is struggling across

357
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 3: all of those domains, that's much more compelling than if

358
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 3: they're only having a problem when you're interviewing them. There's

359
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 3: really good kind of psychometrically solved, scientifically based tools measures

360
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: that we have as clinicians that can that can tap

361
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 3: into the lingering like it's been studied quite a lot.

362
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 3: We know what it looks like typically from people who

363
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 3: are genuinely ill and people who are faking ill. The

364
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 3: only people who are really successful at lingering would be

365
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: somebody who's very sophisticated about what mental illness genuinely looks like.

366
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 4: And yet, is it possible for somebody to appear lucid,

367
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 4: to appear like a good advocate for herself, to appear

368
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 4: self interested and capable of strategic thought, and still be

369
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 4: not competent to stand trial for serious charges?

370
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 3: Yes, I can give an example. Sometimes delusional disorder is

371
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: a it's a type of psychotic disorder, but it doesn't

372
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 3: have the same presentation as like a schizophrenia or something

373
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: would have, so with a delusional disorder, a person doesn't

374
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: have hallucinations. You don't see things that aren't there, they

375
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 3: don't hear things that aren't there. So their main symptom

376
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 3: with a delusional disorder is some kind of circumscribe fixed

377
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 3: false belief, some belief that they truly think is real

378
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 3: that is objectively not true. If that's significant enough, it

379
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 3: can really derail things and really like mess up people's lives,

380
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 3: and those are hard to treat sometimes, like psychotropic medication

381
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: can't always treat that well. So if a person is

382
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: very sophisticated, a smart human being who's like doing just

383
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: fine in life, but they have this like resistant and

384
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 3: intrusive and problematic delusional disorder, that can that can be

385
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 3: a situation where the person might be lucid and this

386
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 3: person could be perfectly capable of doing almost everything else

387
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 3: in a life. That could be a reason why somebody

388
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 3: might be found incompetent and might not be restorable, because

389
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: delusional disorder can be pretty resistant to treatment.

390
00:23:52,440 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 4: Sometimes, is it customary for an evaluator of competency to

391
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 4: talk to the friends and family of that individual to

392
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 4: get their perspective on whether the individual is malingering yeah.

393
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 3: Although again it depends on the seriousness of the case,

394
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: It depends on the training of the evaluator, it depends

395
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 3: on how good of a job they're doing. So in

396
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 3: a system that is incentivizing quick and sloppy work, which

397
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 3: sometimes is the case. If there's a contract, for example,

398
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: for the evaluators, and they get paid by the case

399
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 3: and nobody is paying attention to the quality of what's

400
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 3: coming in, then the incentive is no, you don't do

401
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 3: any of that. You talk to the person for fifteen minutes,

402
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 3: you write a shoddy report sometimes and submit it, and

403
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: you get your pay. That's a bad way to design

404
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: a system. It's also a bad way to do practice.

405
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 3: But it does happen. But certainly it is the case

406
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 3: that if somebody's doing a good job with an evaluation

407
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: like this, that they will talk to collateral sources, certainly

408
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: professional collateral sources, but often also non professional collateral sources

409
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: like friends and family members.

410
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 4: So would you be surprised if in a case family

411
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 4: members had signed f David saying that they suspected a

412
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 4: patient of malingering, that evaluators did not talk to those

413
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 4: family members.

414
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 3: If they knew about it.

415
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: In all the years that Catherine has been held at Perkins,

416
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: the doctors there never spoke to Troy, even though he

417
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: says he's called the hospital at least ten to fifteen

418
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: times over the years in an attempt to speak with them. Lindsay,

419
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: Catherine's mother, says that she too hasn't been interviewed by Perkins.

420
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: In an affidavit Lindsay signed back in twenty fifteen, she

421
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: said Catherine understands precisely what is going on in her case,

422
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: and she is trying to work the system to her advantage.

423
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: She has recently explained to me that if she is

424
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 1: found to be competent, she will go to jail. In

425
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: my most recent conversations with Catherine, she has been as

426
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: clear headed as I have ever known her to be.

427
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: It's understandable why family members like Katherine's aunt leeb Levins,

428
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: who also signed an affidavit, are suspicious of Catherine and

429
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: her incompetent status. She asks questions about me and our

430
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: family members and tells me her opinions about them. She

431
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: is quick witted and responsive. She knows what she is doing.

432
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: She is just choosing to act like she doesn't. These

433
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: doubts about Catherine's behavior create an even more complicated situation

434
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: for Catherine's own mother.

435
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 10: The point that Troy made that the most important here

436
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 10: is that Katherine is afraid of being charged further and

437
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 10: going back to jail. She's now finally realizing that she

438
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 10: does have a middle illness. She feels safe at Perkins.

439
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 10: She wants to stay at Perkins.

440
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoggle is addressing reporters in twenty fifteen, not long

441
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: after another hearing where Catherine was found incompetent.

442
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 10: She's very capable of being competent, whether she's taking antipsychotic

443
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 10: drugs or not.

444
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: She's not taken the right mix.

445
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 10: Yet, she understands the situation. The problem is she doesn't

446
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,479
Speaker 10: want to go to jails.

447
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: As simple as that.

448
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: But it's not that simple. In fact, years after making

449
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: that statement, Lindsay has become more circumspect about her daughter.

450
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: It was clear when Sarah and I visited her more

451
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: than eight years after her grandkids had gone missing.

452
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 10: It probably wasn't worded correctly that My whole point about

453
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 10: her being manipulative is that people with that serious mental

454
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 10: illness learn to be manipulative because you've alienated everybody. That's

455
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 10: close to you, and so you have to find a

456
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 10: street smart way to survive. That's the reality of it.

457
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: Lindsay indicated that at the time she signed the affidavit

458
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: and made those statements to the me, she was furious

459
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: with Catherine because she wouldn't tell anyone what she did

460
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: with the kids.

461
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 10: I mean early on, you know, I signed an Affidavid,

462
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 10: and you know I was very angry at the time too,

463
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 10: just that we're in this situation. I don't know that

464
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 10: you can fake incompetence in her world.

465
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 5: I don't know.

466
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 10: You know, there's been you know, conversations she's faking middle illness. No,

467
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 10: I can tell you no. If anything, she has to

468
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 10: be able to envision a safe place for her to be,

469
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 10: and in my mind, I don't think she has one

470
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 10: right now. I mean, Perkins is safe, I guess if

471
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 10: you use that. But I don't think she's faking in competence.

472
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 4: Do you have any regrets about writing that after.

473
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 10: David, You know, I've kind of come to terms with

474
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 10: everything that I've done and just gone, you know what,

475
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 10: you make good choices, bad choices, And yeah, I don't

476
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 10: really regret it.

477
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: But she upset with you about the AFT David.

478
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 7: Livid.

479
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: Lindsey is uniquely torn between loving her daughter and missing

480
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: her grandchildren, between accepting that many of her daughter's actions

481
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: have been directed by mental illness while acknowledging that Catherine

482
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: is capable of taking more responsibility. She grapples every day

483
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: with ambivalence about what justice could mean in this case.

484
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: But the bottom line is that she wants Catherine to

485
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: receive better treatment, not punishment.

486
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 10: I think she could be competent intent trial. I think

487
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 10: she's capable of that. I would hope that that's not

488
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 10: where this goes after eight years. Yes, I would like

489
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 10: her to have one on one therapy.

490
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 5: She asked for that.

491
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 10: We're still calling treatment medication only, and if that's what

492
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 10: you depend on for recovery, there's really little hope because

493
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 10: the medications aren't great. And so, yes, I think she's recoverable.

494
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 6: I think there's a difference between ability to meaningly assist

495
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 6: with counsel and willingness to do it.

496
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: State's Attorney John McCarthy does not believe Catherine Hoggle is incompetent.

497
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 6: She had the ability to assist counsel, but she wasn't

498
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 6: willing to do it because it didn't serve her ultimate goal.

499
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: If Catherine were to be declared restored and competent, if

500
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: she were to face the charges of murdering her who

501
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,719
Speaker 1: small children, she'd have to decide on a defense, and

502
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: the most obvious one not criminally responsible. There's plenty of

503
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: evidence that Catherine suffered from serious mental health problems her

504
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: entire life, but she'd have to admit that, yes, she

505
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: killed her children. You can't claim that you are not

506
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: criminally responsible if you don't also admit that you did

507
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: the deed.

508
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 6: You know, the doctors that we consulted basically indicated one

509
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 6: of the reasons that particularly mothers who cling to insanity

510
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 6: or incompetency is because if you actually become competent, where

511
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 6: you begin to be able to look at what you've done,

512
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 6: the horror of what you have done in taking the

513
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 6: lives of your own children is too unbearable to allow

514
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 6: yourself to ever recognize you actually did this thing. So

515
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 6: they cling to the incompetency because it's what protects them

516
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 6: from having to come to grips with what they've ultimately done.

517
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 6: She was desperate not to become competent, and you know,

518
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 6: she was terrified of going back to jail and being

519
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 6: tried for the murder of her children.

520
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: For the last eight years, Troy has done little else

521
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: but advocate for Sarah and Jacob. He's pushed for Catherine's

522
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: case to go to trial, but as long as she

523
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: was declared incompetent, it was impossible. But in summer twenty

524
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: twenty two that just might change. A judge has indicated

525
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: he no longer wants to rely on reports from the

526
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: doctors at Perkins. He wants to assess Catherine's competence himself.

527
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: That's next time Unrestorable.

528
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: You know, we still have a long way to go,

529
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: and there's still a very good chance that come December

530
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: the charges will get dropped. But we have a chance

531
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: to try to at least fight for Sarah and Jacob

532
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: and fight for what should be happening.

533
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by me Beth Carris

534
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: and Sarah Trelevin. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldhar, Mixing

535
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: and sound design by Mitchell Stewart for anonymous content. Jessica

536
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: Grimshaw is our executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive

537
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: in charge of production, and Nick Janiez is our legal

538
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: counsel for iHeart, executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer

539
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: Abu Zapfhar