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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 2: it is Saturday. Time to head into the vault for

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Speaker 2: an older episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This

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Speaker 2: one originally published February ninth, twenty twenty three, and it's

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Speaker 2: part three of our series on tea. Pour yourself a cup.

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Speaker 1: Times for drinking tea in idle moments, when bored with poetry,

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Speaker 1: thoughts confused, beating time to songs, when music stops, living

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Speaker 1: in seclusion, enjoying scholarly pastimes, conversing late at night, studying

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Speaker 1: on a sunny day in the bridal chamber, detaining favored guests,

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Speaker 1: playing host to scholars or pretty girls, visiting friends returned

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Speaker 1: from far away in perfect weather, when skies are overcast,

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Speaker 1: watching boats glide passed on the canal, midst trees and bamboos,

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Speaker 1: when flowers bud and birds chat on hot days by

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Speaker 1: a lotus pond, burning incense in the courtyard after tipsy

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Speaker 1: guests have left, when the youngsters have gone out on

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Speaker 1: visits to secluded temples, when viewing springs and scenic rocks.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind Production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. This

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And that opening

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Speaker 1: up the episode. There, that's the one last key poem.

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Speaker 1: This one is also collected in a History of Tea,

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Speaker 1: The Life and Times of the World's Favorite Beverage by

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Speaker 1: Larc Martin, which is one of my sources for these episodes.

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Speaker 1: This is a poem by Sue C. Shue, which I

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Speaker 1: like it. You know, I guess it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: simple format here, but yeah, it's basically saying, you can

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Speaker 1: drink tea anytime. Anytime is a great time to drink tea.

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Speaker 1: But here are some specific examples.

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Speaker 2: I guess, pizza in the morning, pizza in the evening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is our third and I think this

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Speaker 1: will be our final for now episode on tea. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It's certainly a topic we could always come

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Speaker 1: back to. It's a topic we could keep doing. But

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Speaker 1: then if we delivered to do that, we would be

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Speaker 1: a tea podcast. And we're not exclusively a tea podcast,

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Speaker 1: but there are a lot of great looking exclusively tea

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Speaker 1: related podcasts out there, so certainly feel free to continue

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Speaker 1: your tea journey with other shows, and if there's a

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Speaker 1: particular topic related to tea that seems like something we

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Speaker 1: should cover, well, we can always come back and do that.

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Speaker 1: But if you didn't listen to the first two episodes

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Speaker 1: on Tea, I highly recommend you go back and listen

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Speaker 1: to those. We talked about, Oh, the botany of Tea.

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Speaker 1: We talked about a lot of the history of tea

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Speaker 1: and conclude the basic Chinese and Japanese history of tea

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Speaker 1: in this episode, with a few other bits and pieces

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Speaker 1: in there. We also talked about tea mythology in the

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Speaker 1: first episode. Now before we move on and also get

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Speaker 1: into some of these interesting tangents, I wanted to clarify

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Speaker 1: what we said in the last section about the phases

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Speaker 1: of tea because I think this can get confusing. So

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Speaker 1: you have kind of like the primitive tea level, where

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Speaker 1: it would be tea leaves dropped into boiling water, creating

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Speaker 1: a bitter brew. Then you have this phase one of tea.

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Speaker 1: This is where you have leaves dried and pressed into bricks,

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Speaker 1: and then when you go to make it, you cut

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Speaker 1: some of that brick off, you put it in water,

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Speaker 1: and it ends up being kind of coarse and acidic.

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Speaker 1: But this was kind of like the first phase, the

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Speaker 1: first era of tea. Then comes Phase two, where the

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Speaker 1: leaves are steam dried and ground into a fine powder

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Speaker 1: whipped into hot water. This is the Mancha style of tea.

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Speaker 1: It's fresher, it has a fresher, grassier flavor. And then

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Speaker 1: eventually you get to phase three, have steamed, cut, dried, oxidized,

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Speaker 1: and sordid and steeped tea that creates basically most of

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Speaker 1: the modern flavors of tea that we think of today. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of examples that kind of blur the line.

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Speaker 1: You can still certainly get brick or cake, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Teas that are oxidized. Mancha tees are still used as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's don't look at this as just like a

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Speaker 1: strict evolution of form with past forms completely falling away.

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Speaker 1: But I think it is a good structure to think

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Speaker 1: of when we think about the evolution of tea. And

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Speaker 1: as far as phase three goes, we will be getting

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Speaker 1: into that later in this episode.

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Speaker 2: Now, Rob, before we do that, you actually inspired me

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Speaker 2: to go on a couple of tangents about teapots in

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Speaker 2: this episode because while I am not much of a

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Speaker 2: tea drinker, for many years I did have an intimate

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Speaker 2: relationship with a tea kettle that lived on my stovetop,

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Speaker 2: and most of that relationship was one of strife and agony.

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Speaker 2: I really disliked this tea kettle for a number of reasons,

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Speaker 2: and one of them is as follows, Rob, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you've had this experience a million times, whether it's from

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Speaker 2: a poorly designed or vintage teapot, or I guess from

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Speaker 2: any vessel containing liquid. You fill it up and you

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Speaker 2: go to pour it out into a cup or a bowl,

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Speaker 2: but instead of pouring in a steady arc where you

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Speaker 2: aimed it, the liquid coming out of the spout clings

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Speaker 2: to the underside of the teapot spout and then runs

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Speaker 2: down the side of the pot and dribbles all over

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Speaker 2: the table, or the floor or your pants.

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Speaker 1: I have certainly encountered this before. Fortunately, our current teapot

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Speaker 1: doesn't do this, or at least doesn't do this so much.

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Speaker 1: But I have certainly encountered this before.

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Speaker 2: The one that I'm thinking of had a very kind

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Speaker 2: of wide, round, almost pipe like spout, and yeah, it

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Speaker 2: did this all the time. So this is a phenomenon

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Speaker 2: that is well known in physics. It actually has a name.

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Speaker 2: It's called the teapot effect. Though it doesn't just happen

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Speaker 2: in teapots. It occurs when pouring from all kinds of containers.

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Speaker 2: I think it is probably one of the most common

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Speaker 2: sources of spills and stains around the kitchen, when you know,

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Speaker 2: when you're trying to pour out of one container and

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Speaker 2: it just doesn't pour the way you intended, It doesn't

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Speaker 2: arc like you meant it to. Instead, it runs down

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Speaker 2: the side.

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Speaker 1: Mm. Yeah, And I think I've certainly encountered this even

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Speaker 1: more with other pouring vessels, and often it will be

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Speaker 1: something you know, bright and colorful or sticky that I

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Speaker 1: really don't want to get everywhere.

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Speaker 2: I think I was trying to think about situations where

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Speaker 2: I encounter it the most, and before understanding all of

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Speaker 2: the underlying physics, the things that occurred to me were

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Speaker 2: that it happens when you're trying to pour a liquid slowly,

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Speaker 2: especially out of a container without a a designated pouring lip.

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Speaker 2: So like if you're trying to pour liquid, say out

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Speaker 2: of a saucepan or out of a drinking glass, that's

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Speaker 2: dribble city.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, especially this will occur, at least in

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Speaker 1: my experience, where you have to say, like you're gonna

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Speaker 1: pour orange juice out of an orange juice container, and

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Speaker 1: the orange juice container has just been opened, it's super

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Speaker 1: filled up, you know, so you have this impulse to

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Speaker 1: want to pour slowly in order to control the juice

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Speaker 1: which is already almost overflowing. But if you do so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get that dribble more often than not.

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Speaker 1: You've got to commit and really just slash it in there.

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Speaker 2: But why does the dribbling happen? Well, it turns out

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Speaker 2: the answer is not simple at all, and there have

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Speaker 2: been fluid dynamics and raiology papers. Reology is the study

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Speaker 2: of how matter flows, so the flow of fluids or

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Speaker 2: plastic plastic solids. Reology and fluid dynamics papers on this

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Speaker 2: tricky subject, going back at least as far as the

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, there was an investigation of the teapot effect

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Speaker 2: that in fact even won an Ignobel Prize in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety nine. That you can see how that fits with

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Speaker 2: their kind of like a quaint, quirky sense of humor,

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Speaker 2: like oh, teapots, but it looks like A fairly definitive

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Speaker 2: paper on this question came out in twenty twenty one

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Speaker 2: and it was by Bernhard Schikel, Robert I. Bowles, and

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Speaker 2: Giorgio's Passias called developed liquid film passing, a smooth and

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Speaker 2: wedge shaped trailing edge, small scale analysis and the teapot

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Speaker 2: effect at large Reynolds numbers. This was published in the

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Speaker 2: Journal of Fluid Mechanics again twenty twenty one. By the way,

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Speaker 2: if you scroll through this paper and check out the

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Speaker 2: diagrams and equations, it's almost hilarious, like you would be

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Speaker 2: shocked how complicated this looks. I'm not even going to

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Speaker 2: pretend that I could make sense of it. Like I

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Speaker 2: was trying to look and hack through this paper, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is hopeless. So instead I found a good article

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Speaker 2: summarizing the results that includes an interview with one of

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Speaker 2: the lead authors. The article is by Jennifer Woolett for

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Speaker 2: Ours Technica and this paper so it was a collaboration

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Speaker 2: between researchers at the Vienna University of Technology and University

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Speaker 2: College London, and they say that their paper here is

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Speaker 2: a complete theoretical description of the teapot effect, which has

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Speaker 2: eluded these researchers for decades. Finally they've got all the

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Speaker 2: forces modeled here correctly, so they can fully predict what

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Speaker 2: happens with a t spout of various designs pouring in

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Speaker 2: different ways. And they say the teapot effect has to

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Speaker 2: include inertial, viscous, and capillary forces. So it turns out

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Speaker 2: one of the major factors influencing whether the liquid dribbles

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Speaker 2: or not is as you and I both intuited from

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Speaker 2: our experience flow rate. To people who have less experience

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Speaker 2: in the kitchen, I think this might sound counterintuitive because,

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Speaker 2: as you know, you were saying, rob, a lot of

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Speaker 2: times when you're trying to be careful and not spill something,

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Speaker 2: your instinct is to pour slowly because pouring slowly seems

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Speaker 2: like it's the careful option, right. Yeah, But as matches

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Speaker 2: our experience at a higher flow rate, when liquid is

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Speaker 2: coming out of the teapot or container faster, this actually

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Speaker 2: makes the pouring action less likely to end up dribbling.

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Speaker 2: That is how you are more likely to get the

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Speaker 2: arc you're intending. It's actually once you start trying to

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Speaker 2: pour slowly, the dribbling becomes more likely. So you know,

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Speaker 2: you can imagine all kinds of scenarios here, like if

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Speaker 2: you're trying to pour something out slowly, to carefully measure

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Speaker 2: a volume of liquid into another container like a measuring cup,

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Speaker 2: or maybe you were trying to pour something in a

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Speaker 2: slow stream to risk and emulsify it. You've seen people

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Speaker 2: doing that. They dribble all the time.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then I'm thinking, especially like making cocktails

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Speaker 1: and measuring out the various components. This is why the

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Speaker 1: sides of your bottles are sticky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fast steady pouring dribbles less. The design of

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Speaker 2: the lip of the teapot or pouring container also matters.

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Speaker 2: There were some French physicists who wrote a paper on

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Speaker 2: this in twenty ten, and they suggested that you could

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Speaker 2: fight the teapot effect by making the lip of the

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Speaker 2: spout as thin and as sharp ended as possible, so

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Speaker 2: like round lips are more likely to dribble. And apparently

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Speaker 2: it would also help to coat the end of the

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Speaker 2: spout in water repellent material so that the liquid or

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Speaker 2: water based liquid doesn't want to cling to the underside

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Speaker 2: of the lip. And this seems to be because the

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Speaker 2: dribbling is partially the result of what the researchers call

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Speaker 2: a hydrocapillary effect. Basically, whenever you start to pour water

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Speaker 2: based liquid out of a container, drops will form on

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Speaker 2: the underside of the lip of the edge you're pouring

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Speaker 2: from the like the spout of a teapot, So you

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Speaker 2: know the water's coming out of the spout, but then

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Speaker 2: on the under side of that spout there's going to

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Speaker 2: be some droplet formation, and the rate at which you

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Speaker 2: pour determines how big those drops on the underside of

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Speaker 2: the lip get. A high flow rate keeps them small,

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Speaker 2: but a slow pouring allows the drops on the underside

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Speaker 2: to become larger. And once those drops reach a certain

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Speaker 2: critical size, once they get big enough, they actually start

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Speaker 2: to grab hold of the water or tea or whatever

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Speaker 2: that's coming out of the spout and redirect its flow

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Speaker 2: down the side of the container instead of the arc

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Speaker 2: that you're aiming for. Now, there was a thing that

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about. This is another design feature that

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Speaker 2: I didn't see mentioned in this summary or in any

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Speaker 2: of the papers I was looking at, but it's one

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Speaker 2: that I've seen in some kettle designs, and it's a

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Speaker 2: teapot spout, they can have an upward arcing curve right

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Speaker 2: before the opening of the spout. For example, you see

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Speaker 2: this on some gooseneck kettles. Rob, I've got an example

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Speaker 2: for you to look at here if you scroll down,

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Speaker 2: if you try to picture it, it's kind of a

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Speaker 2: curving swan neck shape. I don't know why I said, Swannik.

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Speaker 2: They're literally called goose necks. The curving shape where if

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Speaker 2: you imagine it in pouring position and you're trying to

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Speaker 2: think how the liquid would have to travel to run

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Speaker 2: down the bottom of the spout, it would literally have

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Speaker 2: to go sort of uphill first before it would be

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Speaker 2: able to run down the spout. And I think this

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Speaker 2: also helps it not do that. One last thing that

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Speaker 2: I thought was pretty interesting, So they had to model

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Speaker 2: all these forces that determine whether or not liquid dribbles

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Speaker 2: when it's coming out. Again. Those forces included an inertial, viscous,

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Speaker 2: and capillary forces, but there was actually a very little

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Speaker 2: role for gravity. Gravity does not play a major role

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Speaker 2: in causing the teapot effect, meaning that teapots will still

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Speaker 2: dribble on the Moon or in other low gravity environments.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me. I was looking around for this episode.

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Speaker 1: I briefly looked into drinking tea in orbit, and I

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Speaker 1: did find anything that I was really compelled to include here.

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Speaker 1: But I did see some footage of an astronaut having

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Speaker 1: their tea with chopsticks, like eating the little floating globs

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Speaker 1: of tea. Oh I see out of the atmosphere with

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Speaker 1: their chopsticks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just grabbing like so, I guess with the surface tension,

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Speaker 2: it's like a little blob of tea floating and then

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Speaker 2: you like put the chopsticks in it and it sticks

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Speaker 2: to them. Yeah, yeah, Okay, So that's the physical teapot tangent.

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Speaker 2: What about the philosophical teapot tangent. Well, I thought it

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Speaker 2: would be interesting to very briefly talk about Russell's teapot,

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Speaker 2: one of the most famous teapots in the world. It's

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Speaker 2: not a physical artifact. It is a thought experiment used

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Speaker 2: by Bertrand Russell to explain a certain form of skeptical reasoning,

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Speaker 2: specifically in his case, to support his lack of bully

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Speaker 2: in God, though I think it could be applied to

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Speaker 2: other scenarios. Now, I want to front load a caveat

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Speaker 2: and say that some theistic philosophers think they have good

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Speaker 2: arguments for why Russell's teapot analogy does not or should

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Speaker 2: not apply to beliefs about God. But even if you

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Speaker 2: are inclined to agree with those critics, I think the

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Speaker 2: teapot is useful to think about for a more general

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Speaker 2: analogy for different types of beliefs that we hold in

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Speaker 2: claims that we make. So very brief biographical background. Bertrand

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Speaker 2: Russell lived from eighteen seventy two to nineteen seventy He

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Speaker 2: was a famous British philosopher and public intellectual who was

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Speaker 2: incredibly influential in a number of different fields. So he

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Speaker 2: was pre eminent in his academic fields of logic and

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Speaker 2: analytic philosophy, but he was also a big cultural figure

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Speaker 2: in Britain and an advocate for political causes such as

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Speaker 2: anti imperialism, socialism and nuclear disarmament. But Russell was also

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Speaker 2: infamous for being non religious. In nineteen fifty two, he

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Speaker 2: was asked to write an essay for a London magazine

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Speaker 2: called Illustrated, which came to be called is There a God?

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Speaker 2: And I think the essay was actually scrapped and not

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Speaker 2: published in the originally intended venue, but Russell expanded upon

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Speaker 2: it later and released it. And in the essay Russell

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Speaker 2: uses the analogy of a teapot floating in space to

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Speaker 2: explain his doubts about the existence of God. So I'm

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Speaker 2: going to read from his essay here, and then we

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Speaker 2: can we can analyze a little bit. So Russell says,

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Speaker 2: many Orthodox people speak as though it were the business

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Speaker 2: of skeptics to disprove received dogmas, rather than of dogmatists

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Speaker 2: to prove them. This is, of course a mistake. If

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Speaker 2: I were to suggest that between Earth and Mars there

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Speaker 2: is a China teapot revolving around the Sun in an

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Speaker 2: elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion,

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Speaker 2: provided I were careful to add that the teapot is

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Speaker 2: too small to be real even by our most powerful telescopes.

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Speaker 2: But if I were to go on to say that,

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Speaker 2: since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption

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Speaker 2: on the part of human reason to doubt it, I

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Speaker 2: should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however,

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Speaker 2: the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient

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Speaker 2: books taught as sacred truth, every Sunday and instilled into

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Speaker 2: the minds of children at school. Hesitation to believe in

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Speaker 2: its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle

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Speaker 2: the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an

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Speaker 2: enlightened age, or of the inquisitor at an earlier time. Now,

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Speaker 2: to take a moment to be fair to Russell's critics,

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Speaker 2: I think they make some I'm not sure what I

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Speaker 2: think about this, some potentially good points about the belief

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Speaker 2: in the teapot not actually being analogous to belief in

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Speaker 2: an omnipotent creator God, because they say, for example, the

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Speaker 2: teapot is an object in the world that could only

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Speaker 2: plausibly have come to orbit the Sun if humans had

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Speaker 2: put it there, which we would probably know about if

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Speaker 2: it had happened. Meanwhile, God would not be an object

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Speaker 2: in the world, but like the creator of the world,

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Speaker 2: or somehow standing outside the world. And therefore, according to

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Speaker 2: these theistic philosophers, the existence of God is like a

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Speaker 2: proposition that is just not analogous to the existence of

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Speaker 2: any physical object or entity that you could search for

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Speaker 2: in physical space. So I think a good way of

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Speaker 2: phrasing this objection is that they're saying, well, belief in

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Speaker 2: God is not a claim about something that exists in

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Speaker 2: the universe, but rather a claim about the way the

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Speaker 2: universe is. I'm not going to try to adjudicate that

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Speaker 2: particular dispute about whether Russell is right that this is

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Speaker 2: a good analogy for religious beliefs in God or whether

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Speaker 2: the critics are right that it is not. But either way,

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Speaker 2: I think it is a useful thought experiment in a

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Speaker 2: more general sense because it reminds us not to be

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Speaker 2: taken in easily by unfalsifiable claims. And there's another thought

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Speaker 2: experiment right along these lines that we've talked about on

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Speaker 2: the show before. You might if you listened for a while,

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Speaker 2: you might remember it, the thought experiment by Carl Sagan,

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Speaker 2: The invisible Dragon in his garage. So Carl Sagan says, hey,

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Speaker 2: I've got a dragon that lives in my garage. And

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Speaker 2: if you doubt this, you might say, well, okay, take

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Speaker 2: me to your garage. I want to see it. And

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Speaker 2: then Sagan says, no, no, no, no, no, you got

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Speaker 2: it all wrong. It's an invisible dragon, so you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: expect to be able to see it. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: can look but you're not going to see it. It

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Speaker 2: is there, though, and then you could say, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: then let's walk around in your garage, you know, with

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Speaker 2: our hands outstretched and feel around for it until we

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Speaker 2: finally come upon this dragon's invisible scaly back, and once

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Speaker 2: again Sagan can say, no, no, hold on. It is

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Speaker 2: also an incorporeal dragon. It is made of spirit matter,

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Speaker 2: not solid matter, so you shouldn't expect to be able

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Speaker 2: to touch it, you know, that wouldn't disprove it that

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Speaker 2: you can't feel it, And then you could go through

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Speaker 2: more stages. I think he says that it's you might suggest, well,

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Speaker 2: what if we use like an infrared heat detector, and

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Speaker 2: then he could say, no, no, it's a dragon that does

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Speaker 2: not produce any heat, and so on and so on.

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Speaker 2: You can go moving the goalposts of detection always backwards,

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Speaker 2: so that there's no way to really check and see

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Speaker 2: if the dragon is really there. I think the main

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Speaker 2: point of both of these analogies, Russell's teapot and Carl

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Speaker 2: Sagan's invisible Dragon, is that people can always try to

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Speaker 2: get you to believe things by shifting the obligation of

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Speaker 2: evidence onto you for doubting the existence, rather than assuming

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Speaker 2: that obligation themselves for claiming the existence. So it's the

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Speaker 2: attitude of if I say X is true and you

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Speaker 2: can't disprove it, you must accept it. And this is

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Speaker 2: made doubly dangerous by like the rebuke of all potential

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Speaker 2: investigatory tests. So in the case of Carl Sagan's dragon,

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Speaker 2: that's like, oh no, no, no, it's invisible and you can't

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Speaker 2: touch it and it wouldn't show up on infrared. But

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Speaker 2: in the case of Russell's teapot analogy, it's that, well,

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Speaker 2: the teapot is too small with any of our telescopes,

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Speaker 2: but I tell you it is there. And the point

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Speaker 2: of both of these analogies is essentially I say X,

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Speaker 2: if you can't disprove it, you must accept it. Is

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Speaker 2: not a legitimate way to reason because that type of

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Speaker 2: argument could be it could be used to force you

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Speaker 2: to believe in a teapot orbiting the sun or an

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Speaker 2: invisible dragon in the garage. Reasonable claims are based on evidence,

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Speaker 2: and most importantly, they are falsifiable. They entail certain physical predictions,

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Speaker 2: like you should be able to see what I'm talking

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Speaker 2: about if you look here, or you should be able

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Speaker 2: to detect you know, the heat signature of the dragon

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Speaker 2: if you look here, and if those predictions turn it false,

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Speaker 2: the belief is probably false.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so to your point like that, one of

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Speaker 1: the big applications here, of course, is with like conspiracy

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Speaker 1: thinking today, where there are plenty of examples of this

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Speaker 1: where it'll be some you know, ultimately kind of ridiculous

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Speaker 1: or outrageous or perhaps supernatural claim and then it's presented

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Speaker 1: as if it is on us disprove this, when really

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Speaker 1: that's not the way it goes. And I think you

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Speaker 1: see a more or I tend to see a more

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Speaker 1: rational approach to this with some of the impossible or

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Speaker 1: currently impossible to prove hypotheses so that we've discussed on

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Speaker 1: the show before, like say the bicameral mind hypothesis or

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Speaker 1: the stone ape hypothesis, like these are both I think

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Speaker 1: examples of very thought provoking ideas that cannot be proved

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Speaker 1: or disproved, at least not currently. And I also don't

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Speaker 1: see the major advocates of these hypotheses demanding that scientists

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Speaker 1: disprove them like they seem to they understand how Russell's

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Speaker 1: teapot or the invisible dragon works here and they know

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Speaker 1: that it's on them to make the argument and provide

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Speaker 1: the proof if there is such a thing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, I think it's fair to play around

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Speaker 2: in speculative territory, but to always be hyper conscious to

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Speaker 2: signal and remind yourself and remind others that that's what

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Speaker 2: you're doing. We're playing around in speculative territory, rather than

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Speaker 2: getting too attached to like a fun and interesting idea

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Speaker 2: that maybe doesn't have a lot of strong evidence for

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Speaker 2: it and insisting that people should believe it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and with time, who knows, with time and research,

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Speaker 1: perhaps new evidence will come around to support a given

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Speaker 1: hypothesis or idea. But then the reverse may very well

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Speaker 1: happen as well, or it could be just something again

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Speaker 1: that's completely in the realm of no evidence, where there's

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Speaker 1: never going to be any additional evidence to back this

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Speaker 1: up one way.

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Speaker 2: Or the other. But I think one of the points

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Speaker 2: that Russell and Sagan are making here, and I totally

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Speaker 2: agree with this, is that if you have a good theory,

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Speaker 2: the theory should include within itself ways of checking to

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Speaker 2: know if the theory were wrong. So a theory should

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Speaker 2: entail predictions about the world and all our good scientific

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Speaker 2: theories do, and then you could go and check if

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Speaker 2: those theories, if those predictions turn out true, and if

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Speaker 2: it's a good theory, those predictions will turn out true,

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Speaker 2: and if there's something wrong with the theory, those predictions

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Speaker 2: will not turn out true. And if it's a really

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Speaker 2: bad theory, it in fact will not make predictions at all.

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Speaker 2: It will just be sort of in this unfalsifiable space

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Speaker 2: where it's like, well, there's no way to check if

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Speaker 2: it's true.

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Speaker 1: I've also found if you were addressing doubters or your

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Speaker 1: enemies within the first couple of paragraphs of laying out

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Speaker 1: a given hypothesis, then that's a real red flag.

429
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yes, that's one of the best.

430
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: And I've encountered that at least a couple of times.

431
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. One last point I want to emphasize, though this

432
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 2: is also from that Bertrand Russell quote. He goes on

433
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: to argue that the fact that some beliefs are already

434
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: held by many people gives those beliefs a superficial appearance

435
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: of rationality, even if there is no more evidence underlying

436
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: them than there is for an obviously absurd belief that

437
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: you can make up on the spot, such as a

438
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: teapot randomly floating in space. And I think this is

439
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: a really good point that people should always keep in mind,

440
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: because even if you are, for the most part a

441
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: skeptical person, you will probably have biases along these lines.

442
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 2: And I'll explain it in a second. But according to Russell,

443
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: it's like, we only notice that the teapot claim is

444
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: absurd because it is novel, because he just made it

445
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: up on the spot. If people went around appearing to

446
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: sincerely believe in the teapot, I think it truly would

447
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: start to seem less absurd, and it might start to

448
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: get you know, equal time in the panel discussion on

449
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: the news. Like like one example, why does it seem

450
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: I would say, even to me, I have no beliefs

451
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: in the healing powers of crystals, but why does it

452
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: just feel more plausible to me that crystals have literal

453
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: healing properties then that driftwood has healing properties. They're both

454
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: beautiful natural objects. If you want to fill your house

455
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: up with them or put them by your bedside and

456
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: all that, I think that's wonderful, But I don't think

457
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: they like literally emit vibrations that drive away sickness or something.

458
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: And I'd have to argue that the crystal proposition feels

459
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: more plausible somehow, even though I don't believe it. And

460
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: the reason is that this belief is familiar, and the

461
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 2: driftwood belief is not. People have been saying this about crystals,

462
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: people seem to believe it, so you just kind of

463
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: there's this feeling in your gut. Then it was like, well,

464
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: there must be something to it then, But the fact

465
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: that people say something does not necessarily give it any credence,

466
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: even though it does have this power of giving it

467
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: the superficial appearance of rationality. And you know what, I

468
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: would say, exactly the same thing is true of a

469
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: lot of conspiracy beliefs, like you were talking about a

470
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: minute ago, that like, once somebody has said something and

471
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: appears to sincerely believe it, suddenly you kind of have

472
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: this feeling in your gut like, oh, well, maybe there's

473
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: something to that then, Whereas if somebody had said the

474
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: same thing thing in the context of a thought experiment,

475
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 2: where they're obviously just making up an absurd belief on

476
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: purpose on the spot, it wouldn't have that feeling.

477
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

478
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: Here.

479
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: The drift wood is a great example because I could

480
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: imagine it being supported and brought up enough if someone

481
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: were to champion the healing powers of driftwood, if there

482
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: were stores that sold healing driftwood, then like that idea

483
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 1: would just be out there enough for you to sort

484
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: of buy into it.

485
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

486
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: Likewise, even the teapot, you know, outside of its its

487
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: traditional place here as a symbol of how we should

488
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: think about outrageous claims. You could imagine the scenario where

489
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: someone's making an argument like, yeah, we think there's a

490
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: teapot out there, Like there's a face on Mars, and

491
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: there is a teapot out there floating in space, and

492
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: we need to figure out why it's there. We have

493
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: a few theories, you know, So like if you it

494
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: kind of comes down to the whole situation of the

495
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: old reality of you say lie enough times, then people

496
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: will begin to believe it on some level, like you've

497
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: just created the internal reality of the thing enough to

498
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: where people can't quite get it out of their mind.

499
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: I mean, a favorite trick of the political demagogue. It's

500
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: kind of scary, how much if you just say something

501
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 2: and now this is an idea that has to be

502
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: discussed and taken seriously, even if there's literally no evidence

503
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: for it at all.

504
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, if there were a teapot, though, just for the

505
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: sake of argument, do you think it would be like

506
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: an ornate historical teapot? Do you think it'd be like

507
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: a simple like earthenware teapot, or would it be like

508
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: a space age teapot from another.

509
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: Why are you even asked? Obviously it would be a

510
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: novelty Garfield head teapot.

511
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: Oh, well that's good.

512
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: Yes, you know what does have healing properties? Is Garfield merchandise?

513
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: Oh does it?

514
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: Yes? Well, to some people it may have slight healing properties. Really,

515
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: there's a whole comparison there you could probably make to tea.

516
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: You know, we again are not going to get into

517
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: the healing powers of tea too much, but outside of

518
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: any actual properties involved in the tea itself, outside of

519
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: what is actually happening in your body when you drink tea.

520
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: But by this point, like tea has so many ritualistic associations,

521
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: cultural associations, and personal associations that there is a comfort

522
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: tea kind of going back to that poem, there there

523
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: are all these circumstances where it is the right time,

524
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: it is the appropriate time, it is the comforting time

525
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: to have a cup of tea, and therefore, yeah, I

526
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: mean to at least some extent, like any cup of

527
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: tea is going to do you good if you were

528
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: a tea person.

529
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: Well, this gets back to, yeah, what we were talking

530
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: about in the previous episode about the the studies on

531
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: the health effects of tea. I mean, it looks again

532
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: there are a lot of persistent methodological problems with studies

533
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: like this, but it looks on the whole like tea

534
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: may very well have some positive health benefits, but it's

535
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: just really it's hard to study stuff like this because

536
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: it's not like a new drug that nobody was taking anyway.

537
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: It's something that is deeply enmeshed in culture and in

538
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: people's lives and in all this so it's a lot

539
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: harder to isolate the chemical mechanical properties of the molecules

540
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: that enter your body when you drink tea, and like

541
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: do these really fight disease? Or when you're studying correlations

542
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: between tea use and other health outcomes, is that a

543
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: secondary effect of some other correlation? Just because it's so

544
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: much a part of human life. It's so much harder

545
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: to study.

546
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: This reminds me of a point I may come back

547
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: to when we talk about the introduction of tea into Japan.

548
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: Oh well, on that note, let's get back into your

549
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: notes on the history of tea in China and Japan.

550
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: Now where do we leave off with the history and

551
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: development of tea?

552
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: In the last episode, I believe we'd pretty much reached

553
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: the Yen dynasty. So this was a period when the

554
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: Mongols ruled China from the early twelve hundreds through thirteen

555
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: sixty eight. And as we I believe, as we noted

556
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: in the last episode, when you when you have a

557
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: period of outsider rule in China, historically you tend to

558
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: see a decline in tea popularity. And I know we

559
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit and you kind of asked, well,

560
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, why is that exactly? And I thought, well,

561
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: this would be a good, good example here. I wanted

562
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: to go a little deeper into it. So I looked

563
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: at a few different sources on this particular scenario, because

564
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: on one level, it's not to say that the Mongols

565
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: didn't like tea. They had already been exposed to Chinese

566
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: tea trade earlier and apparently took to it. They valued

567
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: it as a digestive aid, among other things. Some of

568
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: the sources I was looking at pointed out that there

569
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: were particularities of like the traditional Mongol diet where it

570
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: was nice to have a big caffeine punch to sort

571
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: of move things along, you know. And also we have

572
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: to remember, like there's there's definitely cultural transference. I mean,

573
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: this is one of the sort of the famous aspects

574
00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: of Mongol rule in China is that these new rulers

575
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: take on a lot of Chinese cultural things, and so

576
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: the transference is going to go both ways. But I've

577
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: seen this mention of a decline in tea popularity during

578
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: this period noted in multiple sources. Now there is an

579
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: added wrinkle that I've seen discussed regarding the Marco Polo account,

580
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: and I don't want to get into all the ins

581
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: and outs of that and arguments about how historically accurate

582
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: we should consider the Marco Polo account. That account barely

583
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: mentions tea despite his visits supposedly taking place during this time.

584
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: But we know through other sources that there were plenty

585
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: of tea houses still operating during this time period. And

586
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: I think I've seen it argued as well that, Okay,

587
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: if we're to take the Marco Polo account at face value,

588
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: he was ultimately more interested in things that were Mongolian,

589
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: and he saw tea as this non mongol thing and

590
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: therefore didn't pay as much attention to it.

591
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: So you could say maybe he especially because he was

592
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: interested in trade, he's interested in dealing with the cultural

593
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: artifacts of say, the dominant culture at the time, the

594
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: politically dominant culture.

595
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it would also line up with

596
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: some of the things I've read about how the Mongols

597
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: they didn't like outlock tea or anything, but he became

598
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: just another beverage during this period, so they valued it,

599
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: but they didn't elevate it like we see in previous

600
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: and subsequent dynasties in China. And I was reading about

601
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: some of this All the Ta in China from nineteen

602
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: ninety book by Chow and Kramer. But now another source

603
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: I was looking at is by Valerie Sartor. This was

604
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: published in the American Journal of Chinese Studies in two

605
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: thousand and seven. Is a paper title All the Tea

606
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: in China. The Political Impact of tea.

607
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: Well again, they're both that the previous book you talked

608
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: about in this paper both called all the Ta in China.

609
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: It's just irresistible. You got to go with it, okay. Anyway.

610
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: In this paper, Sartok points out that the Mongol rule

611
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: in China, again the Yen dynasty, didn't put as much

612
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: emphasis on Chinese tea culture or pay a lot of

613
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: attention to traditional tea customs. However, they definitely liked it.

614
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 1: They adopted the salting of their tea and mixing it

615
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: with milk, and at the same time, traditional Chinese tea

616
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: houses remained popular hangouts for scholars and poets. In two

617
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: thousand and fives Tea and Chinese Culture by Ling Wang,

618
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: it's pointed out that the Mongol rule during the End

619
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: dynasty was not only rule by non Han ethnic minority,

620
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: it also filled many of its key positions with ethnic

621
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: minorities as well. Wang points out that while the Mongols

622
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: during this time really took to tea, they also pushed

623
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: things toward a mass produced product for the masses and

624
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: pushed away from you know, the more like say, a

625
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: exotic animal shaped tea cakes that had been popular in

626
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: China prior to their coming to power. So you know, again,

627
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: I think it's a more complicated, seeming historical issue than

628
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: one might expect. But I wonder if we might think

629
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: of it as being kind of a cultural shift away

630
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: from the glamour of tea as opposed to like, you know,

631
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: an abandonment of tea or a decline of tea. Really

632
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: it was still valued culturally among the Chinese as a

633
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: beverage and a medicine, but it wasn't maintained as a

634
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: socially elite thing with the kind of trickle down effects

635
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: of that social elitism that you would see during this

636
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: time period.

637
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: I see. So in these these sort of dormant periods

638
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: that we were talking about in that push and pull

639
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: pattern in the last episode, like in this example, it's

640
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: not that tea really went away or that people stopped

641
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: drinking tea, but just that it became less significant as

642
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 2: a as a political and social elite signifier. Yeah.

643
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I bet we can compare this

644
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: in a limited sense to various trends. You know, you'll have,

645
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: say a particular style of cocktail. This would deal with

646
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: a much shorter period of time, but like a particular

647
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: cocktail comes out, it's exciting, but then it just becomes

648
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: another cocktail, and the attention given to it, you know,

649
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: it definitely goes down. Your average experience of this cocktail

650
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: is maybe a bit mediocre until such time as someone

651
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 1: brings it back and starts pushing the boundaries again and

652
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: figuring out, like, what works about this cocktail, what can

653
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: I improve upon, what new twists can I do to it?

654
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: And in what ways can I go back to the

655
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: original version of this cocktail? That sort of thing. So,

656
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: but either way, during the Mongo rule, I think we

657
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: can generalize and say that tea culture has stagnated a bit.

658
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: Nobody seemed to have been advancing tea so much or

659
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: pushing the boundaries of tea. But then you have the

660
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: establishment of the Ming dynasty in thirteen sixty eight, and

661
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: it's in this dynasty we see yet another revival of

662
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: t And it's not to say that it's as simple

663
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: as the Ming dynasty simply announcing hey, Ta's back on

664
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: the menu, because again, it was never off the menu.

665
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: And in fact, according to weighing in Tea and Chinese culture,

666
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,959
Speaker 1: the tea loving scholarly class, they were somewhat cracked down

667
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: on during this Initially during this period, as were various

668
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: other perceived threats as the Ming solidified their rule. Though

669
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, one of the founding hong Wu Emperor's sons

670
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: became a key scholar and proponent of TA during this time.

671
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: This was an individual by the name of Zu Kwan,

672
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: and he wrote a manual on T and much of

673
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: the Ming tea ceremony culture to follow would be based

674
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: on the ideas presented in this manual T as this

675
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: ritualized cleanser of the soul. So on one hand, yes, you

676
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: have imperial folks pushing tea again, accepting TA. You can

677
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: get kind of like that, that trickle down attraction to

678
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: the beverage again. But it's also during this period that

679
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: we enter phase three of tea, in which tea is picked, withered, dried, rolled,

680
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: and oxidized. The result is dried, loose leaf tea that

681
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: can then be steeped for a set number of minutes

682
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: to create a smooth and rich beverage. It was easier

683
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: to process this way, as Laura C. Martin points out

684
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: in the History of Tea, and it better enables the

685
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: incorporation of dried fruits and spices as well as flowers.

686
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: All these were ingredients the Chinese tea enthusiasts during this

687
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: day and tea masters definitely explored, and you see this

688
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: a lot in tea today as well. Also during this time,

689
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: the Honglow Emperor himself proclaims that only this new method

690
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: of loose leaf tea is going to be acceptable as tribute.

691
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: So tea tributes made to the Emperor and his household

692
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: they have to be this new phase three t The

693
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: scholarly class apparently held out a little bit longer, sticking

694
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: to their older traditions, traditions again that they had they

695
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: had stuck to through foreign rule. But even they eventually realize, hey,

696
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: oolong tea is really good and they start drinking oolong

697
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: tea instead.

698
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so they've got the larger process that includes oxidation

699
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 2: like we talked about last time. But am I correct

700
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: that Oolong that's a medium level oxidation tea, right, It's

701
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: not as oxidized as like black tea, but it's more

702
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: than green tea.

703
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I didn't read a whole lot on oolong

704
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: or oolong tea, but but perhaps there was kind of

705
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: like a meeting of halfway there where they're like, oh,

706
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: but this one's just a little bit oxidized, you know.

707
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

708
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: Now, new types of tea also means okay, we have

709
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: we have new methods of brewing it, so we need

710
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: new tea paraphernalia. And so it's during this time to

711
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: come back to the teapot that historians think that the

712
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: true teapot was possibly born. Now, prior to this one

713
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: would use open pans and wide mouthed bowls to brew

714
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: your tea in. But they discovered now that okay, if

715
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: you have a small, covered container, this is going to

716
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: bring out more flavor. But at the same time, it's

717
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: thought that the invention of the teapot was largely more

718
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: of a repurposing of pre existing wine oers and then

719
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: adapting the design for tea, so, for instance, the handle

720
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: being placed on the side of the teapot as opposed

721
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: to on top of the teapot for easier access, though

722
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: of course we still have a lot of teapots today

723
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: where you have the handle on top that kind of

724
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: folds to the side. Also, smaller pots, because while it

725
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: might make sense to have a larger pot that you

726
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: have filled with wine to distribute at a party or

727
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: something if you're making tea in it. You don't want

728
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: to make so much tea in the pot that everything

729
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: gets over steeped. Because you oversteep your tea, it's going

730
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: to take on a bitter and undesirable flavor. I imagine many

731
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: of you out there have encountered this before. Perhaps you

732
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: get a pot of tea at a restaurant and there

733
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: are not enough of you drinking it, or you're drinking

734
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: it at such a slow pace that by the end

735
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: it's pretty strong and maybe a bit bitter.

736
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 2: Sorry, this got me thinking about, with the invention of

737
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 2: the teapot, if there are any older like of these

738
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: tea poems, if any of them mentioned the dreaded dribbling

739
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: like is the teapot effect reference that far back? I

740
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: wonder when the first person to notice it in writing.

741
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: Was Oh, this is a great question. We have to

742
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: come back to this, because I bet there's an answer.

743
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: Because these texts that were coming out on tea culture

744
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: were so exhaustive about all the dos and don'ts, there

745
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: has to be something in there about the I'm surely

746
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: forbidden don't of dribbling your tea during a high class

747
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: tea service like if it doesn't, like, surely it exists

748
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: in Chinese and or Japanese literature.

749
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the instruction must be to pour with confidence. Yes.

750
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: Now, there were other advancements here too. For example, light

751
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: colored porcelain ceramics became all the rage as they allowed

752
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: you to show off the natural color of a particular

753
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: tea better. Blue underglazes were also quite popular, and there

754
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: was also a special earthenware teapot known as a using

755
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: that was quite popular as well. This was I think

756
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 1: it basically means like purple earthenware, but it wasn't necessarily purple,

757
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: But it was an earthenware tea pot that was essentially

758
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: seasoned by the tea. And they could also be quite beautiful.

759
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: But there are some mentions in the old writings about

760
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: tea that like, oh, we have a nice tea here,

761
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: but you're serving it out of the wrong pot. You

762
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: need a properly seasoned pot otherwise it's just not going

763
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: to taste it. Now, we mentioned Oolong tea already, but

764
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: obviously this is the time during which black tea is discovered.

765
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: You know that we could realize that we can have

766
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: this this highly oxidized black or red tea as it's

767
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: generally referred to in China, and as Mary Lou and

768
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: Robert J. Heies discuss in the Story of Tea, a

769
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: cultural history and drinking guide that came out in two

770
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: thousand and seven. The discovery of black tea oxidation as

771
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: a process was originally thought only suitable for barbarians and foreigners.

772
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, it makes me wonder, as I'm sure you know,

773
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: many food inventions have an origin like this. Was this

774
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: discovered by act accident? Was it like, ooh the tea

775
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: the tea leaves got bruised up and smashed and then

776
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: left around for a while and they turned dark and

777
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: all that is it ruined?

778
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: Oh?

779
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: No, turns out it actually tastes great.

780
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: You know, I think I ran across a story or

781
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: to that effect, but then I couldn't rEFInd the story

782
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: when I was finalizing my notes here. But yeah, I

783
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: feel like there was at least one story about like

784
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: some discarded tea ship mints that an army came across,

785
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: or something to that effect. But the other interesting thing

786
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: about this is that like the resulting tea would simply

787
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: keep longer and could therefore be shipped further both by

788
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: land and by sea, and so the brick tea that

789
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: started reaching Mongolia and to bet that would be black

790
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: brick tea. Meanwhile, green tea bricks those more easily suffered

791
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: from overheating from freezing, and it often developed mold in

792
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: damp environments. So yeah, we get into the situation where

793
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: the farther out you're sending your tea, the more where

794
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: it makes sense for it to be black tea. And

795
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: perhaps early on you're just like, well, yeah, get send

796
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: that black stuff out of here. That's going to Mongolia,

797
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: that's going to Tibet. But then of course over time

798
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: it catches on, people start experimenting with it, and you

799
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: get so many splinterid black teas as well. But at

800
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: the same time black tea of course becomes the tea

801
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: to catch on in the Western world and catch on

802
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: by storm. There's a good great deal of Martin's The

803
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: History of Tea that of course just deals with this,

804
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: like how tea reaches Europe and how it I mean,

805
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: because it's so crazy to think about this as well,

806
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: like modern Britain and not even modern brit but historically

807
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: Britain and tea so inseparable, like it is held up

808
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: as this thoroughly British thing, but of course it is

809
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: entirely an import one interesting thing. This is something we've

810
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: discussed on an older episode of the show. But like

811
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: thinking again about black tea being considered this thoroughly British thing,

812
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: and yet at the same time, there seems to have

813
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: been at least a mild panic Britain in the nineteenth

814
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: century about green tea making people hallucinate unlike proper black tea.

815
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: Of course, that's almost like people don't realize they come

816
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: from the same plant.

817
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you're talking about the same botanical origin here,

818
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: they're both tea. But yeah, black tea is British, but

819
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: green tea is something to mistrust.

820
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 2: And again there's a dangerous foreign substance that may have

821
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 2: the devil inside it.

822
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a Again there's an older episode of

823
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: the show about this, but the scenario seem to have

824
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: basically involved three factors mistrust of a tea seen as

825
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: foreign or unusual, and I think this was also backed

826
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: up by a popular ghost story that was written in

827
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: the time during this time period about the dangers of

828
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: green tea, also possible contaminants of the tea, and also,

829
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: there were some sort of bad actors in the tea

830
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: market here who thought, well, we need to make this

831
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: color more exciting for Western customers, and so they were

832
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: throwing in some perhaps less than healthy substances to try

833
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: to enhance the coloration of the green tea. Hmmm.

834
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: Oh, this may be a completely spurious connection, but it

835
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: also makes me think of the English association between the

836
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: color green and like the jealousy of the fairies.

837
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, I don't recall there if anybody

838
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: called out that connection, but I could easily see that

839
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: they're being the sort of color theory and color a

840
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: version already present and given culture. And then you have

841
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: these other that could potentially enhance these other reasons that

842
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: we're seen at the time to be suspicions of green tea.

843
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a green dress invites curses, what would a

844
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: green beverage do?

845
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. But the other thing worth keeping in mind too

846
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 1: is that there is an actual possible link between caffeine

847
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: and hallucination. And this link is not all that shocking

848
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: when you consider the relationships between anxiety stimulants and the minds.

849
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: Just natural potential for hallucinations various reasons.

850
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, but would there be more caffeine and the green

851
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: tea than the black tea. I thought it was usually

852
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: the other way around.

853
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: Yes, But then also a lot of that comes down

854
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: to how long you're steeping something, and you know, how

855
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: often you're consuming it. I guess, like if you're having

856
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: enough green tea during the course of a day. I mean,

857
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: the other part of it is that an individual's susceptibility

858
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: to caffeine is going to vary from person to person.

859
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: But I guess one way to look at it is, Yeah,

860
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: if caffeine potentially enhances stress, then this could cause the

861
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: body to release more cortisol. And another explanation that I

862
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: remember from that episode was that people who use caffeine

863
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: a lot, say three or more cups of coffee per day,

864
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: are simply more prone to mental health associations that cause hallucination.

865
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 1: So you know, there are various various ways to tease

866
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: it apart if there's nothing special about green tea itself,

867
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: unless it is, of course, has some sort of horrible

868
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: substance added to it potentially to make it more hallucinogenic.

869
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's just kind of interesting in terms of

870
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: the britishness or foreign nature of tea as perceived in

871
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: England in the nineteenth century. All right, one final area. Again,

872
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: We're not going to follow tea all around the world

873
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: and cover all the various variations and customs on this show,

874
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: but I think it is important to at least touch

875
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: on Japanese tea culture and history a bit as well,

876
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: because like knowing when and how tea reaches Japan is

877
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: also important because Japanese culture has contributed so much to

878
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: our global understanding and appreciation of tea. In fact, a

879
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: number of the teas that I drink are Chinese teas,

880
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: but I did make sure that I was drinking a

881
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: Japanese tea when I was working on this section of

882
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: the notes.

883
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: Oh, which one is?

884
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: That is a delightful Karagani tea, Which is a great tea.

885
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: This one's made, but I think mostly from stems, and

886
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: like a lot of green teas, you have to be

887
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: you can't just go willy nilly in there and start

888
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: steeping it at any temperature and for any amount of time.

889
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: It's not one of the kind of slot. I like

890
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: a good sloppy tea that I can accidentally forget about

891
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: and come back too. And it's no worse for wear.

892
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: This is one you have to be precise with. But

893
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: if you if you just give it the appropriate amount

894
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 1: of time at the appropriate temperature, it's thoroughly delightful, very

895
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: smooth green tea. So tea culture as I was reading

896
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: in most of my main source and this was Martin,

897
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: but tea culture was originally introduced into Japan via Buddhism

898
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: during the reign of Prince Chautauku, who lived five seventy

899
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: four through six twenty two. This is a semi legendary figure,

900
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: though there's nothing too legendary about the basic premise here,

901
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: So this is not a story that involves the machinations

902
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: of gods or supernatural deities. Basically, you had scholars traveling

903
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: to China during this time studying Buddhism and in the

904
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: process also learning to drink and cultivate tea. Now, this

905
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: is definitely the Phase one era of tea at this point,

906
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: So there's that level of tea technology that they have.

907
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: This is the two level of tea technology that they're

908
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: bringing back with them.

909
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: Phase one would have been the brick form.

910
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the brick form that did not have as enhanced

911
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: flavor profile as most of the teas we think of today, okay,

912
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: And it was a luxury item at first, mostly imported,

913
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: but it was during the reign of Emperor Shomu, who

914
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: lived seven oh one through seven fifty six he helped

915
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,399
Speaker 1: popularize it more by serving it to monks, particularly. There's

916
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: a story about him serving it to monks during this

917
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: day long reading of Buddhist scriptures and they're like, what

918
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: is this and he's like, drink it. It's going to

919
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: enhance everything you're doing today, trust me, And supposedly they

920
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: end up embracing it up until the ninth century, when

921
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: Sino Japanese relations strained somewhat. There is a lot of

922
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: cultural transference there, with tea customs and practices entering into

923
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: Japan from China, much of it tied to Buddhist practices

924
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: and the tastes of the Imperial court at that time.

925
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: In the ninth century, however, diplomatic ties between the countries

926
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: dried up, and tea culture in Japan didn't really progress

927
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: for a good three centuries. Its popularity to decrease, and

928
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: its use was then limited mostly to monasteries, which is

929
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: interesting because all this kind of mirrors what we saw

930
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: during Mongol rule in China. But then during the twelfth century,

931
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: relations between Japan and China improved, and it's during this

932
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 1: period that the Monk Asi introduced both the Rinzai Zen

933
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: Buddhism practice as well as whipped tea to Japan. So

934
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: this is phase two once more with Asi. Here he's

935
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: advocating tea as a key tool for Zen Buddhist practitioners

936
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: as well as a quote divine remedy and supreme gift

937
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: of heaven. Martin writes that Asi proclaimed t as the

938
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: cure for or loss of appetite. Illness is caused by

939
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: poor drinking, water, paralysis, boils, and what we would come

940
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: to know of as a thimine deficiency. He saw tea

941
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: drinking as something that benefited each organ in a different way,

942
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: as well as the spiritual aspects of a person as well,

943
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: just so everywhere it could go to leak into all

944
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: your organs and into your spiritual structures, and it's just

945
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: going to cleanse everything out and make everything better.

946
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: Tea is great, But I love these different moments in

947
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 2: history where like somebody discovers tea and then they're like

948
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: it does everything. You know, they really get on the

949
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 2: tea terrain.

950
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do like that. Again, it comes back to

951
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: something we talked about in the last episode about tea

952
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: being healthier than just normal drinking water that hasn't been

953
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: brought up to the boiling point.

954
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

955
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: So, initially tea was really popular monasteries and among the

956
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: ruling class, but then it spread to pretty much everyone.

957
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 1: It also became highly ritualized during this time, the time

958
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: of the samurai. For example, it became part of the

959
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: Bushido code. So if you were a memo or of

960
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: the elite warrior class in Japan, were yeah, you're expected

961
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: to be able to kill people with your sword, but

962
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: you were expected to apply yourself to say poetry and

963
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: tea customs when you were not fighting or training to fight.

964
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 1: By the mid fourteenth century, tea houses were a popular

965
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: secular hangout as well, and it seems to have taken

966
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: on a not only a secular air, but kind of

967
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: a boisterous quality as well. They're apparently a number of

968
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: tales of tea drinking exploits. Some of these exploits were

969
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: tied to just drinking a whole lot of tea. There

970
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: are accounts of like fifty cups, one hundred cups, though

971
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: I don't think this is necessarily for an individual, but

972
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: maybe more for like a group or a table.

973
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: Okay, because I mean warning like you can't actually get

974
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: too much caffeine. Be careful there.

975
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't do not try and drink fifty

976
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: or one hundred cups. But I think this would be

977
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: like a party, like a large group and they're just

978
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: drinking a lot of tea and they're keeping track of

979
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: how many they were going through. It could be wrong,

980
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: but I think that's the case. There were also more

981
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: refine find tea drinking exploits tied to contests that would

982
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: take place to see if you could identify a tea

983
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: by the taste or say taste of tea and determine

984
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: what region it's from. That sort of thing, And the

985
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: tea service during this time was also formalized as a

986
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: part of politics. So really it's like at every level

987
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: of the socioeconomic structure, tea ends up finding a place.

988
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: Tea culture would come to impact various levels of design

989
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: as well, from the physical instruments of tea brewing of

990
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: course in Japan, but also this would end up being

991
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 1: tied into the architecture of tea huts that were specially

992
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: designed to blend into the natural environment and be part

993
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: of this sort of like nature based understanding of tea

994
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: and tea drinking.

995
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: Speaking of pouring with confidence to avoid the teapot effect

996
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: that I mentioned earlier, I've watched some video of Japanese

997
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 2: tea masters from today at work, and man, I really

998
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: notice a pouring with confidence kind of ethic to them.

999
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: Like it's interesting to watch their actions because in the

1000
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: ones I've seen, they are of course very precise with

1001
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 2: their movements, so it's not it's the opposite of sloppy,

1002
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 2: but it is also very like forceful and deliberate, confident pouring.

1003
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 2: It is not delicate, little anything that would result in dribbling.

1004
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I say, I know that some of these

1005
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 1: tea masters in their works have to have to tackle

1006
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: the avoidance of dribbling, and how you avoid dribbling in

1007
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: these various tea ceremonies. You know, I don't know about you, Joe,

1008
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: but another this is something that comes up for me

1009
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: and I know was just surely avoided by experts in

1010
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: the field. But in the resteeping of tea bags, one

1011
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: error that we have to keep looking out for in

1012
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 1: my house is you have an already wet tea bag

1013
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: and you're going to do your second or third steep,

1014
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: you put it in there, you have some new hot

1015
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 1: water added. If the tea bag is kind of partially

1016
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: hanging over the edge of the of the tea cup

1017
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: or the mug, then you'll have this kind of wicking

1018
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 1: effect where the water comes up through the tea bag

1019
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: and then gets all over the countertop. If you ever

1020
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: had this.

1021
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: Occurain, Yeah, I didn't know what you're talking about.

1022
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So another great way to make a big

1023
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: mess with tea.

1024
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: Different kind of capillary action, I would guess.

1025
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Capillary action sounds like a better explanation,

1026
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: but yeah, it do make a mess.

1027
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: Well, I've enjoyed this tea journey, Rob, Yeah.

1028
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: Like I say, this was not an attempt to provide

1029
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: an exhaustive and all inclusive understanding of tea, but hopefully

1030
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: sort of drive home like the basic evolution of tea

1031
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 1: and where a lot of the most important movements in

1032
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: tea were taking place. Because again, we have such a

1033
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: rich tea global culture out there to appreciate. Now, we

1034
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: didn't even get into all the various salted and buttered

1035
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: tea traditions. And again, we're already at this point. I

1036
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: don't think we've gotten to share any of these in

1037
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: listener mail yet, but we're already hearing from some folks

1038
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 1: about some of their favorite ways to prepare tea, things

1039
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: that are either personally or culturally important to them. So

1040
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from everyone out there. If

1041
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: there's a particular tea you love, let us know. For

1042
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: my own part, and I'm doing this recording especially, I

1043
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: have a bit of a sore throat and a cold

1044
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: a cough going on, and I depended heavily on a

1045
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: puer tea called Evil Snake King. And normally I just

1046
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: take it straight, but for this I added a lot

1047
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: of honey to it. So normally I don't put anything

1048
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: into the teas that I drink, but man, if my

1049
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: throat is a little bit sore, I can add some honey,

1050
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: maybe even some lemon to that and it'll really get

1051
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: me through.

1052
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: Well, may the Evil Snake King breathe all his curses

1053
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 2: into whatever microbe is infecting your throat or virus A

1054
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: blast them on out of there. Yeah.

1055
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: Plus, I just bought this piece of driftwood just arrived.

1056
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: It's supposed to have healing properties. Yeah, I have to

1057
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,479
Speaker 1: swallow it and strap it to my neck. It would

1058
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: be good. Great, all right, So yeah, write in. We'd

1059
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there about tea and

1060
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: tea culture in your life. If you have perhaps you

1061
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: have some answers to our questions about tea dribbling advice

1062
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: from the tea masters of old. In the meantime, check

1063
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Our

1064
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: core episodes come out on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the

1065
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed On Mondays. We

1066
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: do those listener mail episodes. On Wednesdays we do a

1067
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact, and on Fridays we

1068
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a

1069
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: strange film.

1070
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

1071
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

1072
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,479
Speaker 2: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

1073
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

1074
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

1075
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 2: dot com.

1076
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, podcasts,

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Speaker 3: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.