1
00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,600
Speaker 1: Hi.

2
00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,320
Speaker 2: I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

3
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,880
Speaker 2: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and

4
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 2: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling railvalry.

5
00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 3: No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth.

6
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 2: Revelry.

7
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:34,200
Speaker 1: That's good.

8
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 2: Oliver Rutland Hudson here back on sibling revelry. Yeah, I'm alone.

9
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 2: Do I feel sad? Yeah, we're a little sad. I

10
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 2: missed my partner in crime. But you know what it is,

11
00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,120
Speaker 2: what it is, and I am I'll take over, you know,

12
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:09,959
Speaker 2: It's what I do. But this fear and sadness and

13
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 2: this anxiety is a perfect segue into my guest, Drew

14
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 2: lince Lata. This is someone who I found on Instagram.

15
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 2: And if you've listened to this podcast, you know that

16
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,320
Speaker 2: I have suffered through anxiety and some depression, and I

17
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,399
Speaker 2: have dealt with it in my own ways, feeling extremely

18
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,960
Speaker 2: alone in it in my twenties. I'm never afraid to

19
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,960
Speaker 2: talk about it, though as I've gotten older, realizing that

20
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,360
Speaker 2: especially nowadays, everyone fucking suffers from some sort of anxiety.

21
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 2: I'm medicated and I'm on Lexapro because of it all

22
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 2: that stuff. If you listen to the show, you know

23
00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,600
Speaker 2: that anyway I found I didn't find my son found

24
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,360
Speaker 2: Drew because he was going through his own anxiety, which

25
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about. I won't get into it now,

26
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,679
Speaker 2: but he's the one Wilder is the one who said, Dad,

27
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 2: you should see this on Instagram. And I just thought

28
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 2: that he's so spot on with this stuff and it's

29
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,400
Speaker 2: so incredibly relatable and it just hit home for me

30
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 2: and I wanted to talk to him. So I'm very

31
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 2: excited to pour my heart out and to really get

32
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,320
Speaker 2: into the depths of it. And I can't wait to

33
00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 2: hear about sort of his own journey because obviously this

34
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 2: guy must be fucking anxious as shit to create an

35
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 2: Instagram page about it. Anyway, let's bring him on, my man, Drew,

36
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 2: open up that door, please, whatd on man? What's going on?

37
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,079
Speaker 2: Very happy to be talking to you. I know we've

38
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 2: been trying to do this for a minute now, and

39
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,720
Speaker 2: I know you've got your Instagram page called The Anxious

40
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 2: Truth and a podcast, correct, right. You know I didn't

41
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,240
Speaker 2: discover you. My son did. My son is now sixteen,

42
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 2: but this was a few years back, and you know

43
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,360
Speaker 2: he was going through something, and of course I knew

44
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 2: what it was because I have my own history with

45
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 2: anxiety starting my twenties, probably starting well before that, but

46
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 2: it struck me hard in my twenties and then throughout

47
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 2: my life. So I knew what was happening.

48
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 3: You know.

49
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 2: He would say, he would tell me, you know, I

50
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,000
Speaker 2: don't feel real. This doesn't feel real, which is that

51
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 2: sort of disassociation, you know, kind of vibe. And then

52
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,240
Speaker 2: he got chest stuff. He felt like he couldn't breathe.

53
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 2: He would go on a bike ride and think that

54
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 2: he was going to sort of die in his hard

55
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 2: you know. And I was like, I know what this is,

56
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 2: you know. And and so I kept him home from

57
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 2: school for weeks because he just couldn't go to school.

58
00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: And I had him right in his journal, and I

59
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 2: had him, you know, meditate, and I worked with him

60
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 2: and you know whatever made him feel good. But I

61
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 2: knew what. I knew what was going on. One day

62
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 2: he comes to me and he goes, Dad, like, look

63
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,159
Speaker 2: at this, I think you might like it. And it

64
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,240
Speaker 2: was your your feet on Instagram. So he discovered you

65
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 2: and I started flipping through him, like, man, this dude

66
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 2: is so spot on with the true feelings of anxiety,

67
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 2: and you use it in a way that is not

68
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 2: so serious. Yes it's serious, but you have fun with it,

69
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 2: you know, And I think that's smart. I'm well versed

70
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 2: in my feelings and I know how to get out

71
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 2: of him now. But so I thank my son for

72
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 2: finding you, because you've honestly helped me just feeling like

73
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 2: you're like, I'm not not alone, even though you know

74
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 2: you're not alone. Oh, you know, thanks man. And so

75
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 2: to start, just give me an idea of where this

76
00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,400
Speaker 2: came from. How fucking anxious were you that you wanted

77
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 2: to start a career out of it.

78
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,720
Speaker 3: I was anxious, all right. I see where this is going.

79
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 3: I'm good with that. So, yeah, it came from you know,

80
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 3: many years of my life twenty five plus years on

81
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: and off where I suffered in a big way with

82
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,480
Speaker 3: multiple anxiety disorders and things like go CD and clinical depression,

83
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,599
Speaker 3: and you know, it sucks. It's I was pretty anxious.

84
00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 3: I was frozen in fear in my own bathroom, afraid

85
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,160
Speaker 3: to leave the house, couldn't be home alone. I used

86
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,520
Speaker 3: to do really lovely things like not be the first

87
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 3: person to open the orange juice in the house, you know,

88
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 3: because probably poisoned. So we'll let someone else that I

89
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,280
Speaker 3: love find out for me, Like, come on, brain really

90
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,280
Speaker 3: m hm. So yeah, I've done all the things. I've

91
00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 3: been there, the depression thing where like nothing means anything

92
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,240
Speaker 3: anymore and the world has no color and you just

93
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 3: want to lay in bed and you don't care anymore.

94
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,040
Speaker 3: And like, I've been through all of those things, and

95
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 3: you know, I've been through different iterations of that over

96
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 3: many years. And the genesis of the whole podcast in

97
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 3: books and becoming a therapist thing was when I the

98
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,680
Speaker 3: third time around, like, Okay, I kind of know what

99
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 3: to do here, because I always have been a bit

100
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,200
Speaker 3: of a nerd when it comes to like behaviorism and

101
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 3: learning theory and cognition. So I knew what the thing

102
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 3: to do was, but it just took me really long

103
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,839
Speaker 3: time to actually do it. And I met a bunch

104
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,160
Speaker 3: of friends, like in the early days of YouTube, who

105
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,120
Speaker 3: were going through the same thing. We would exchange a

106
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 3: little YouTube videos together about ten or twelve people, and

107
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,839
Speaker 3: that built a little tiny community. And then when I

108
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 3: got better, I just felt like I should probably sort

109
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 3: of pay this forward. I guess I don't know, I'll

110
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 3: help me. Let me like pay it forward into the

111
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,680
Speaker 3: internet or something. So I bought a four dollars app

112
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 3: on my crappy like first gen iPhone, talked to nobody

113
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,200
Speaker 3: in a podcast that I knew nobody was listening to,

114
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 3: and like, here I am that it turned into this.

115
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,960
Speaker 2: And this is your life now, I mean, this is

116
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:52,719
Speaker 2: your business.

117
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. So from the mid ninety I mean my undergraduate

118
00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,719
Speaker 3: training is an architecture, and then from the like mid

119
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,240
Speaker 3: nineties all the way through until recently, I've I was

120
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 3: an internet guy like data centers and networks and stuff

121
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 3: like that. And yeah, finally was just this is ridiculous.

122
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,000
Speaker 3: Why am I still caring if anybody's email works or

123
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,960
Speaker 3: how fast your website? This is clearly what I should

124
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 3: be doing.

125
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,000
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm did you say you were a therapist?

126
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I'm right now finishing my training, so I'm

127
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 3: you know, working God, Yeah, I just did you know? Finally,

128
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,520
Speaker 3: And it's such a strange progression too, because for so

129
00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 3: many years I I started the podcast, and we had

130
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 3: like all kinds of online forms and Facebook are just

131
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 3: helping people out, you know, it was nothing formal, and

132
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 3: it got and bigger and people would say, you know,

133
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 3: you should write a book. Yeah, I want to write

134
00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:33,960
Speaker 3: a book. Why do I have to write a book?

135
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 3: Then I wrote a couple of books, and then everybody

136
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 3: would say, why are you not a f You should

137
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 3: be a therapist. No, I don't need to be a therapist.

138
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 3: Listen to people when they book, man like, people know stuff.

139
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,440
Speaker 3: So yeah, I went back to school for my grad

140
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,560
Speaker 3: training a couple of years ago and I'm finishing up now.

141
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,560
Speaker 2: So dude, that's an amazing it's amazing. I would say

142
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 2: that if I wasn't in the entertainment business, I would

143
00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 2: want to be a therapist. I mean, I love talking

144
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 2: about my own feelings. I love hearing other people's issues,

145
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 2: and you know, I mean the human condition to me

146
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 2: is so I mean, it just it's incredible that we're

147
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 2: all made of the same things and can feel so

148
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 2: differently about the world. And so going back, you know,

149
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,960
Speaker 2: when did you experience your first sort of bout with this,

150
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 2: and you know, give us sort of a bit of

151
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 2: a timeline on how this happened, how you recognized what

152
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 2: it was, how you got through, and how you got

153
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,240
Speaker 2: through it, and then how you manage every day because

154
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong, But it doesn't just go away,

155
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,679
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? I meaning like there is

156
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,280
Speaker 2: always for me personally. I know how to deal with

157
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,079
Speaker 2: it now. I have the tools, you know, and I'm

158
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 2: on medication by the way, But it feels like it

159
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, it feels like it will just never

160
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 2: be completely gone and out of my system.

161
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, we could definitely talk about that. The you know,

162
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 3: for me, it all started. I was nineteen. I was

163
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,840
Speaker 3: home for spring break from college and I was hanging

164
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,200
Speaker 3: out in my house that I grew up in, like

165
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,719
Speaker 3: everything couldn't have been any better, and I had the

166
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,560
Speaker 3: first panic attack of my life. I had no idea

167
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,520
Speaker 3: what the hell was going on. I literally the first sensation.

168
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,440
Speaker 3: So when your son had said it feels not real,

169
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,680
Speaker 3: that was my first boom. All of a sudden, it

170
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,920
Speaker 3: just just hit me and everything wasn't real. I'd never

171
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 3: felt that before, and I legit man like, I legit

172
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 3: interpreted that as well. It's been in pretty good nineteen years.

173
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,320
Speaker 3: I guess this is how I go out. I thought,

174
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 3: for sure, this is what it feels like when you died.

175
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 3: What the hell did I know? So that was super scary.

176
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 3: I had a panic attack that first, and I did

177
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 3: not know what the hell it was, and then instantaneously

178
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 3: became afraid to have it happen again, because it's a

179
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 3: nasty experience to have, right, So the next morning, I

180
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,559
Speaker 3: was still so super shaking, and I was shaky, and

181
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 3: I was really worried that it was going to happen again.

182
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 3: So sure enough happened again and again and again and again.

183
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,680
Speaker 3: And so I was kind of a textbook example of

184
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,560
Speaker 3: somebody who has a panic attack, which most adults will

185
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,440
Speaker 3: have at least one or two in their life in

186
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 3: the West. But I was one of those lucky people

187
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,319
Speaker 3: for whom it turned quickly into a textbook case of

188
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 3: an anxiety disorder. That's where you become I'm anxious because

189
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,840
Speaker 3: I'm anxious, which is not intuitive for a lot of people.

190
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 3: We can get into that if you want, because the

191
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 3: conventional mental health wisdom is often turned on its head

192
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,079
Speaker 3: in the case of anxiety disorders. Yeah, and I developed that.

193
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 3: I got super afraid to go out and be alone.

194
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 3: It was just within a few months the wheels fell

195
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:35,160
Speaker 3: off on me.

196
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 2: What were your symptoms? Oh, is anxiety you know? Well?

197
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the depersonalization derealization dissociative state. Right, so we

198
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 3: could have PDR. My heart would pound constantly. I would

199
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 3: feel it in you know, the pulse in your ear.

200
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,200
Speaker 3: I didn't have really stomach issues, which most people do have,

201
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 3: but that I had sort of dizzy. Yeah, a lot

202
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 3: of people have to run right for the bathroom. I

203
00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 3: get that's really calm, and I was lucky I didn't

204
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,720
Speaker 3: have that, but the dizziness sort of off balance feeling.

205
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 3: Then I would fix it by like deep breathing, and

206
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 3: then I would accidentally hyperventilate, so I get pins and

207
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,560
Speaker 3: needles and my hands would lock and my face would

208
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,560
Speaker 3: go numb and that would freak out or it was

209
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:15,680
Speaker 3: just a mess.

210
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 2: And that was how old were you? Was this when

211
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,160
Speaker 2: you were nineteen?

212
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 3: That was nineteen. Yeah, I was nineteen, and I was

213
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 3: like bulletproof today before that day. Yeah, never got nervous.

214
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 3: I was one of those like really annoying, high achieving

215
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 3: guys that never studied and still wasn't top of the

216
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 3: class and blah blah blah. Never got nervous about anything.

217
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 3: And then the wheels, the roof just caved in. And

218
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 3: then the span of a few months.

219
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,040
Speaker 2: Were you a drinker at all or no, I was,

220
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean meaning like after that. I'm not attributing it

221
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 2: to but after did you try to maybe like get

222
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 2: a little buzz to see all that.

223
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,839
Speaker 3: No, that's a very common experience. A lot of people

224
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 3: do do that. I just didn't do that for some reason.

225
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:51,960
Speaker 3: I can't. I'm not claiming any high ground on that.

226
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 3: It just wasn't something that I turned to. But of

227
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 3: course you start running the doctors. That was the first

228
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 3: thing is something's clearly wrong with me. And you know,

229
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 3: I was told I my GP at the time, like oh,

230
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 3: you have like free floating anxiety. He gave me an

231
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,439
Speaker 3: anti histamine, which this will call me now now if

232
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,240
Speaker 3: I take a ben adrill. If I took it right now,

233
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,079
Speaker 3: in about five minutes, his interview was over.

234
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:13,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're gone.

235
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. But back then he gave me an anti histamine

236
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,440
Speaker 3: like take this when you feel anxious, and it was

237
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 3: like bullets bouncing off of Superman, like an anti history

238
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 3: panic attacks. It didn't work, and it was a rough,

239
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 3: rough experience. What helped me that first time was I

240
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 3: was interning at a big defense contractor here on Long Island,

241
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 3: and the nurse the company nurse. This is like old school.

242
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 3: They had a company nurse, like in the building. Who

243
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 3: does that now, right? I remember I would you know,

244
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 3: she saw how nervous I was. She was so nice

245
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 3: to me, and she would talk to me about it,

246
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 3: and she said, oh, I know a psychologist locally. Go

247
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 3: check him out. So I did, and he handed me

248
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 3: a book by a woman named Claire Week. Doctor Claire Weeks.

249
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,080
Speaker 3: She was an Australian physician who she passed many many

250
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 3: years ago, but she was the first person to sort

251
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 3: of bring these things to the general look back in

252
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties and seventies. And I read her

253
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 3: book and twice in about fourteen hours, and I'm like,

254
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,640
Speaker 3: this woman is clearly talking to me. I had a

255
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 3: name for it, I knew what it was, and I

256
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 3: kind of got better for like ten years, and then

257
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,719
Speaker 3: the wheels fall off again. And then I medicated to

258
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 3: get better, and that was good because it fixed my

259
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 3: depression or got me out of depression. Then it caused

260
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:25,880
Speaker 3: all kinds of problems and I had to come off

261
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 3: to that medication finally, like years after that, and that

262
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 3: was when I did the sort of exposure based cognitive

263
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 3: behavioral recovery to get Yeah, finally get passed it once and.

264
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:47,959
Speaker 2: For so from nineteen how long did it last before

265
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,360
Speaker 2: you were back for your feeling good again?

266
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,640
Speaker 3: That was over the summer. I saw that psychologist I'll

267
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,080
Speaker 3: never forget. I sat with him for about five or

268
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 3: ten minutes. I told him it was what I was experiencing.

269
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,679
Speaker 3: He was like, hang on, He left the room. He

270
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,600
Speaker 3: came back, He handed me the book. Read this call

271
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,680
Speaker 3: me if you need another appointment. It was amazing. He

272
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:03,680
Speaker 3: was so nice to me.

273
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,800
Speaker 2: It was that quick. It was that that.

274
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 3: He said, read this book, call me if you need

275
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 3: to see me again. And I think I saw him

276
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 3: once or twice, and I remember I saw him the

277
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,959
Speaker 3: second time just to say I can't believe she's writing

278
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,679
Speaker 3: about me, and he explained panic attacks were and that helped.

279
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 3: I just needed to know what it.

280
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 2: Was, so that first bout didn't last too long.

281
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say spring break is why, like April, and

282
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 3: I was feeling pretty good by time I went back.

283
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,120
Speaker 3: So September, right, yeah, somewhere that neighborhood that was you know,

284
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,160
Speaker 3: that was a tough six months, but yeah, knowing what

285
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,240
Speaker 3: it was helped me. But get over it for the

286
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 3: first time.

287
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,120
Speaker 2: It's so funny because your experience is not dissimilar to mine,

288
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 2: where I was going into a club with a friend

289
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 2: and he was ahead of me, and everything was great.

290
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 2: I was in my early twenties. Everything my life was

291
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 2: seemingly fine.

292
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:51,800
Speaker 3: You know.

293
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 2: I was trying to be an actor. I mean again,

294
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,920
Speaker 2: when you go back into the psychology of why these

295
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 2: I might be happening to you, because of course it's

296
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: stemming from something you know, and trying to be an actor,

297
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 2: trying to live up to, you know, my own expectations.

298
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 2: But my parents are who they are, you know, they're

299
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: famous actors and can I make this? And my sister's

300
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 2: famous and can I do it? And am I good enough?

301
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 2: And you know, self esteem issues, all of these things.

302
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 2: Of course, in the moment, I wasn't even knowing about that,

303
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,760
Speaker 2: but boom, it hit me like a fucking train, like

304
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 2: a heart attack. I don't know where it comes from,

305
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 2: out of nowhere, and I went down to a knee

306
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm going to die on the

307
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 2: sidewalk in like Hollywood, you know what I mean. And

308
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 2: I reached out my john. I try to call my friend,

309
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,160
Speaker 2: but he couldn't. He was already gone. And I came

310
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 2: to I was like, okay, Jesus, and I go in.

311
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 2: I have like a vodka. I'm trying to like settle down.

312
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 2: I'm like, what the fuck was that? And then again

313
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 2: same thing. It's this panic of having a panic attack,

314
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,120
Speaker 2: it's this is this gonna happen to me again? And

315
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 2: that just led me down the rabbit hole. Now for me,

316
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 2: it was a lot of stomach stuff and disassociation. But

317
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 2: I would throw up, like I would go outside, and

318
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 2: if I would go outside and try to get into

319
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 2: the world, I would I would puke. And so I

320
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 2: would try to fight through it. I'd surf and like

321
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 2: be throwing up and my I didn't want to stay home,

322
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 2: but I did journaling and meditation, and I eventually got

323
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 2: through it. Same thing. Went to the doctors, did stress test,

324
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 2: did my heart, did everything everything is fine, and you know,

325
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 2: eventually got through it through meditation and journal writing and

326
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 2: then I went on Selexa. But then I had another.

327
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 2: Then I had another bout, and then I've had three

328
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 2: real big big bouts.

329
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah me too. I went through three of it three times.

330
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And the second one, how did

331
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 2: that play out for you.

332
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 3: It was interesting because it always would come on when

333
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 3: things were going great. So the second time, I was

334
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 3: in the middle of the first dot com boom, you know,

335
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 3: when the Internet. I'd shifted away from design and construction,

336
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 3: like I'm going to be an internet guy. I like

337
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 3: to reinvent myself, and so I did that, and I

338
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 3: was partners in an internet company here on Long Island,

339
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 3: and things were going really great at the time for us,

340
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,919
Speaker 3: and it just started creeping back in. I started to

341
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 3: notice I was getting very anxious and feeling the symptoms again,

342
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 3: and then I started having panic attacks. The thing is,

343
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 3: I didn't really learn what to do. The first time.

344
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 3: I just learned what it was, and that helped me

345
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,120
Speaker 3: not be afraid and I got past it. The second

346
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 3: time it hit, I didn't really know how to deal

347
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 3: with it, and like just knowing what it was wasn't

348
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,840
Speaker 3: enough anymore, and then snowballed right away into like agoraphobias.

349
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,920
Speaker 3: Now here, I own this business and I'm absent from

350
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 3: the business because I cannot leave my house to go

351
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 3: to the business. It was really rough, and that's when

352
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,119
Speaker 3: I got really depressed. That was dangerous depression. And I

353
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,719
Speaker 3: got to the point where I was at wits end,

354
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,119
Speaker 3: and I remember my wife taking me to our doctor

355
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 3: at the time, and he gave me the insulin speech,

356
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 3: which many people with this problem have heard, because I

357
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,639
Speaker 3: was very stubborn about meds, just because I'm stubborn, not

358
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 3: because meds are bad or wrong. And he said, if

359
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,880
Speaker 3: you were diabetic, you would take insulin right chemical imbalance,

360
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 3: and and I was so desperate, I'm like, fine, give

361
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,439
Speaker 3: it to me. Sure enough. About ten days into it,

362
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 3: my depression lifted, and I thought it was the greatest

363
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 3: thing ever. And it was. It was a life lifesaver

364
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 3: at that moment. But I'm like, okay, cool, I'm fixed

365
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 3: because I stopped having panic attacks and my depression was gone,

366
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 3: and I was pretty good except for me. My issue

367
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,879
Speaker 3: was the medication did help, but it also hurt because

368
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 3: I didn't have panic attacks or depression, but I had nothing.

369
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 3: I was super flat. I gained one hundred pounds, Like, no,

370
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,639
Speaker 3: one hundred hundred pounds, dude, I cannot even if you

371
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 3: saw pictures of me, were like, is that is not

372
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 3: the same guy. The hundred pounds hevery than I am.

373
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 3: Now I wasn't having panic attacks. It really nasty effects

374
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 3: for me. I'm not again. If it's working for people,

375
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 3: I'm all for it. I support anything that work for anybody,

376
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 3: and everybody has the right to make their choice. For me,

377
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 3: it turned out to be more problematic than anything else.

378
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 3: My kids were born, my grandparents passed away, did not

379
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 3: shed a tear, didn't feel anything. I was like a zombi.

380
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 3: Ooh wow, really bad. So I knew that I that

381
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 3: wasn't working out so well. When the kids were small

382
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 3: and I came off and I went through a horrific,

383
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,880
Speaker 3: like antidepressive withdrawal period. Not everybody has that.

384
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,919
Speaker 2: You and I are like, literally I connected. I crazy.

385
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 2: I went through the same withdrawal experience where it was

386
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,959
Speaker 2: worse than my first one. I had won. And then

387
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,880
Speaker 2: I had a small second one when I was doing

388
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,439
Speaker 2: the show called Nashville. I was away from my kids

389
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: and it just it hit me. I had I was

390
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,679
Speaker 2: playing beach football and like had a fucking crazy panic

391
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 2: attack where I had to go to I mean, it

392
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,919
Speaker 2: was nuts and I started bawling crying. I was like, please,

393
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 2: I cannot believe this is happening again.

394
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 3: Oh man, I feel that I remember King in my

395
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:49,199
Speaker 3: bedroom literally in like ugly crying, some do something, somebody

396
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,679
Speaker 3: do something. It was a horrific, horrific feeling. Yeah, it

397
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 3: was worse than the panic attacks for me. Like that. Yeah,

398
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 3: that thing where the heads go away and you don't

399
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 3: oh my god, your brain is adjusting again. Was worth Again,

400
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 3: if you're listening to this, that doesn't necessarily happen to everybody.

401
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 3: It's really important for me to say that maybe people

402
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 3: might have a problem like I had. That was a

403
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 3: rough year for me, that six get up back on

404
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 3: my feet and a.

405
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,399
Speaker 2: Year I well I had. I was weaning off and

406
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 2: I thought I was doing it correctly, and then it

407
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 2: just took me to a place. Dude, I mean this

408
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 2: is like three or four years ago, even four years ago,

409
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 2: maybe yeah, four years ago. It was just so debilitating.

410
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,199
Speaker 2: I mean totally different. It wasn't throwing up stuff. It

411
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 2: was just it was totally like, oh god, it was

412
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,400
Speaker 2: just it's hard to even explain. I mean, complete disassociation.

413
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: I was a mess and trying to be a dad,

414
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 2: going downhilly and mountain biking with my kids. It was

415
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,719
Speaker 2: over summertime. I got to offer two jobs, you know,

416
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 2: and I'm like Okay, Now I got to go to

417
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 2: work in August. I'm like, I can't go to out

418
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 2: live in Albuquerque. I can't do it, Like I can

419
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: barely come out of my room. But I was like,

420
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,239
Speaker 2: I need to support my family. I gotta do this.

421
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: So I had to go back on medication because I

422
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: just had to, yep, be even to try to support

423
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 2: my family.

424
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

425
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, and now I'm just on it, you know,

426
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 2: But it was that withdrawal was so nuts. Yes, it's

427
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 2: important to say that doesn't happen.

428
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 3: It doesn't happen to everybody. I know a lot of

429
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 3: people that maybe you're afraid to take the meds because

430
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 3: you think that might happen to you, or if you're

431
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 3: on it, you want to get off, Like I'm afraid

432
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 3: because I'm going to have it. You might, but we

433
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 3: nobody knows. We really don't know who's going to have

434
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 3: that and who's not. And I know there's all kinds

435
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 3: of pedaling tests about metabolisms and what your genetics say,

436
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: which one, Yeah, we still don't really know. So, but

437
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 3: it doesn't happen to most people. I know plenty of

438
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 3: people who just they calld turkey them and they were fine,

439
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 3: which is not so Yeah, that was really really rough experience.

440
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 3: But that experience taught me so much about the difference

441
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: between pain and suffering. As crazy as that's I could

442
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 3: not stop the pain, but I had to learn to

443
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 3: adapt as best I could. I mean, I don't know

444
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 3: how you would apossibly get like, I'm even free out

445
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 3: just here and you're like move to Albuquerque. Really in

446
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: that state, Yeah, I couldn't go to the door around

447
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 3: the corner for me to get a gallon of milk.

448
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: Couldn't do it. Yeah, so no way, it's not going

449
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 3: to happen.

450
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I know, I know. But that adjustment

451
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: period is interesting because you know, you do learn to

452
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: live with the suffering of what it feels like.

453
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 3: I remember learning that I had to wake up and say,

454
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna have to do the best I can

455
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 3: with this today, which wasn't very good, but that there

456
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: were lessons in that experience.

457
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, crazy yeah. And then eventually in that and

458
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 2: that bout you got through.

459
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 3: Just I got through that finally, And you know.

460
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: What, did you did you do any practice or anything?

461
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: Was there meditation, deep breathing, journaling or anything like that

462
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 2: or or interesting because by the way I started interrupt

463
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 2: but cognitive behavioral therapy would change my ship. Like I

464
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 2: have been in therapy for a while, but but then

465
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: I switched and found this person and it was CBT,

466
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: and I was like, whoa, this is real therapy. It's

467
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: a whole, the whole of an animal, and it's It

468
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 2: was incredible and totally life change.

469
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 3: I would say that I tried. I mean, anybody you

470
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: know you were in that position clearly, Well, it's amazing

471
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 3: that we share such a similar experience, right, but you

472
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 3: know in that situation, you would try anything to get relief.

473
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 3: So I would try to meditate to feel better, and

474
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 3: it was just chemical. It was nothing I could do.

475
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: There was no practice, journaling, did nothing. It was just

476
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 3: this is the way I feel today. I can't help it.

477
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 3: My brain is doing the best again. So no, I

478
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: can't say, but I did learn. I did start to

479
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 3: gain some ability that helped me later to say, well,

480
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: I can't stop this, so I'm gonna have to just

481
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 3: do the best I can with what I have in

482
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 3: this moment. I didn't recognize that I was learning that

483
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: skill until I had to use it later. But I

484
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: did take that skill out of that experience if it matters,

485
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 3: and my brain just kind of got its act together

486
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 3: over the course of a year and I couldn't. But yeah,

487
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: so I kind of got lucky. But then I had

488
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 3: to deal with the actual problem that was still there

489
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 3: because the maths don't I mean, at least for me,

490
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: all the problem. They just masked it. And yeah, and

491
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 3: then I had to go through a couple of years

492
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: of doing the whole exposure, learn to face the fear,

493
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 3: you know, stop doing my rituals. There was a lot

494
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: of stuff going on.

495
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot, right, because you had an OCD component

496
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: to it as well.

497
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people who have anxiety disorders, they

498
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: all start to mush together. So it's like all I

499
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: panic disorder, but it can also look like OCD some

500
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: social anxiety clicks and they all mush together after it.

501
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 3: That's hard to separate it. Did.

502
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: You have to sort of look back into your life

503
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: and discover where it came from.

504
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 3: Here's where things get weird. So for people that are listening,

505
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: especially people who are into sort of personal development and

506
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 3: wellness that sort of stuff, this is where people like

507
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: me who specialize in anxiety disorder sound weird. Or you'll

508
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: say like, I doesn't know what he's talking about. Clearly

509
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: they was unhealed pain or trauma or something not always.

510
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 3: In fact, the data overwhelmingly says that it might make

511
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: you vulnerable to develop an anxiety disorder. But we have

512
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 3: to stop automatically saying that the way to fix it

513
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 3: is to dig deep into some sort of pain or root.

514
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: Cause you may have that kind of work to do

515
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: because we all have shit in our lives, right, we

516
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 3: all get to deal with their stuff. But really, I

517
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 3: did it without ever looking backwards. So yeah, now one day,

518
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: maybe I'm going to wake up and say, oh shit,

519
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: like that's why it happened, and I'm gonna have to

520
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: deal possible. I don't know, But in an anxiety disorder,

521
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: often the insistence that we have to do healing and

522
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: trauma and deep introspection work makes things worse. That can

523
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: be a harmful course of action for somebody who has

524
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: panic disorder or goraphobia, OCD, health anxiety, those sort of things.

525
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: I know that sounds ridiculous to say because people will

526
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 3: just automatically say, well, it's your feelings. You have to

527
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 3: fix your feelings and your emotions and your hurt and

528
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: your pain. Sure you do, that's part of being a

529
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 3: healthy as best you can. But that isn't how you

530
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: treat that problem.

531
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: So where do you start an That's interesting because you're

532
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 2: enlightening me. I mean, I mean, I think I kind

533
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: of knew that you don't have to have deep trauma

534
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: to have anxiety. But I would always assume that it's

535
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: connected to something. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And

536
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: I guess the first knee jerk reaction is, Okay, let

537
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: me get into therapy, you know what I mean, because

538
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 2: I'm feeling this way. There's a reason for it. I

539
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: don't know what it is. Let me find out.

540
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

541
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 2: But so if you're not going that route, you know,

542
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: as someone who makes this his life, what would you

543
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: sort of suggest, how do you get started to down

544
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: to the path of sort of recovery.

545
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, So here's the way we do that. First, we

546
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: always acknowledge that those things might exist, of course, but

547
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to say that like, oh, nobody has trauma,

548
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: nobody is pain. We all do, right, we all have

549
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: pain of some kind. But the anxiety disorder, that state

550
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 3: is defined by why am I anxious? Because people think well,

551
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: if I can find why I'm anxious in panicking, it'll stop. No,

552
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 3: not when the reason why you're panicking is because you panic.

553
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: So for people that develop anxiety disorders, the source of

554
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 3: the anxiety and the fear is internal. It may have

555
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 3: been all triggered by something. That's true, we could probably

556
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: argue that, like something triggered me the first time. He

557
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: knows you were able to say, well, I was under

558
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: a lot of stress. I was trying to make it

559
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 3: in Hollywood, blah blah blah. Okay, and it boiled over

560
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: and you start having panic attacks. So the first thing

561
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 3: we got to do is, well, why am I afraid?

562
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: I'm afraid because I'm afraid. It's fear of fear. I'm

563
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: anxious because I'm anxious. I panic because I panic.

564
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: That's it. I mean, it boiled down once once you're

565
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: in the cycle of insanity. It is that it is

566
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: you are panicking because you might panic, right, So I like.

567
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: To look it is, yeah, and it's not intuitive because

568
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 3: as human being, you might think if I could find

569
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 3: the reason for the panic, it will stop happening. But

570
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: the reason for the panic is the panic in the.

571
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how about the moment. How about the moment

572
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: when you wake up in the morning and there's that

573
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: small window of like, oh my god, I'm I normal?

574
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: Am I normal?

575
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: Yeah?

576
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: I think I'm normal. I think I'm normal. Oh my god,

577
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: I'm not feeling normal. Oh no, I'm not normal.

578
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 3: You know that that is one hundred percent right when

579
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: that first when you open your eyes and you're now

580
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: conscious and it's just yeah, it's like four and a

581
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 3: half seconds of like, yeah, you got a small.

582
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: Window of like, am I gotta feel normal?

583
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: And then the train rolls into the station and your

584
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 3: screw yas man. I get that. You really nailed that

585
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: in a big way. I think I like to use

586
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: a fire analogy, So, like, imagine that your anxiety disorder

587
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 3: or your chronic continuing anxiety, whether it's panic attacks or

588
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: it becomes a goraphobia, afraid to leave the house, or

589
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: maybe you have OCD. You're battling with a steady stream

590
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 3: of intrusive or scary thoughts that you don't want and

591
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 3: they disturb you and they trigger you. Think of that

592
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 3: as a fire. So now there's a fire burning. Something

593
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 3: lit the fire, and you might have a fire on

594
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: your right side, and you could be holding a torch

595
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: on your left hand, like, here's the problem right here,

596
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: So now I blow out. I put the torch out,

597
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: but the fire is still burning. So that a fire

598
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: that has to you have to tend to that fire.

599
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: You'll also want to put the torch out if you

600
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 3: have one. Of course, putting out the match that lit

601
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: the fire does not put the fire out. Yep, it's

602
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: not intuitive. It makes no sense. And again this is

603
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: why even in the therapy world, many therapists don't specialize

604
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: in anxiety disorders. I'm in arguments all the time with

605
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 3: my colleagues over this.

606
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: Are you really?

607
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, all the time, because people who don't specialize

608
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: in these things will often say, like they call it,

609
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: they're we're weird. We're like the engineers of the therapy

610
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: where the mechanics of oh, you're the exposures. Let's put

611
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: your feelings into a computer and we'll tell you what

612
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: to do. It's not that, but they joke on it.

613
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 3: Let's call good natured and professional ribbing. But most therapists

614
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: will ascribe to the things that resonate with them, which

615
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: is you have to do pain work and shadow work,

616
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: and we have to dig and get to your feelings.

617
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: Sure we do. Your feelings are really important. But the

618
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 3: problem in this state is that your feelings become everything,

619
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: even though those feelings aren't necessarily connected to reality, indicative

620
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: of reality, or making any kind of rational sense at all.

621
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: So if I did have some trauma or pain in

622
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: my past, and maybe I did, but that doesn't explain

623
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: why I was afraid of my own heartbeat.

624
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: So then how do you What are the first steps?

625
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: You know, if you're if you once you diagnose it

626
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: self diagnosed, or you know, normally people will go to

627
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: the doctor and get checked out and they're like, okay,

628
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm medically totally fine.

629
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 3: Now that first step, by the way, that has to

630
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: be you got to do that.

631
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: It is it's medical, meaning like go just make sure everything.

632
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: Is good, yeah, make sure. Yeah. Always if you walk

633
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: into my therapy, we're gonna say if you have you

634
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: been medically cleared? Have you been by an because we

635
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: wanted we got to treat the whole.

636
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: Person, right, Yes, So now we're medically cleared, and now okay,

637
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 2: I I can't. I can't get out of my house.

638
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw up every time I leave. I've I'm

639
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: anxious about being anxious. You know, what are our first

640
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: steps to sort of, you know, getting through this thing. Well,

641
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: if it's not therapy, I'm not saying don't go to therapy.

642
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, if if we're not going to go

643
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: to therapy, you know, what are the steps?

644
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: Okay, So the first thing that we would use even

645
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: in therapy, which anybody can access. And now you talk

646
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: about things like social media. This is a lovely thing

647
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: about social media.

648
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: Right.

649
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 3: It's good because we would start what it's called psycho education. First.

650
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 3: If I'm your therapist, I'm going to explain what an

651
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 3: anxiety disorder is. I'm going to explain that you're now

652
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: afraid of being afraid. It's fear of fear panic because

653
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: you panic. And when you explain that to somebody off

654
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: and it's like a light bulb moment, like, oh my god,

655
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: you're right, that's exactly right. I'm afraid of when I

656
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: have the thought about stabbing my dog. I don't want

657
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: to stab my dog, but I can't stop the thought.

658
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: It triggers me. Yeah, you're afraid of the thought. You're

659
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: not afraid of anything with the thought. So first we

660
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: psycho education explain some of the stuff you and I

661
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: are talking about right now. After psycho education, then this

662
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 3: is where it turns left again for most people. I

663
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: am all for your meditation practice and your journaling practice.

664
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: Clearly that's an important part of wellness for you, and

665
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: I would think it's a great Those are tools that

666
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: a lot of people can I use them too, right,

667
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 3: But we have to start to turn somebody away from

668
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: I need a way to calm it down. I need

669
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: to find techniques to calm myself self down. Because if

670
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 3: you are afraid of your internal experience of panic or anxiety,

671
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: or thoughts or emotions, if you immediately look for ways

672
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 3: to squash them. So as soon as I start to

673
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: get triggered, I have to tap my cheek. I have

674
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: to get my lavender oil. I have to do this.

675
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: I have to meditate. Are literally teaching your limbic system. Yeah,

676
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 3: keep sounding the alarm. My own pain is now a danger,

677
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: So please keep alerting me to my own thoughts. Keep

678
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: it coming, keep it coming. And then you get stuck

679
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: on a treadmill of like I just try to manage

680
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: my triggers and manage my symptoms. You can do it

681
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: that way. Some people manage to manage it enough to

682
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: be functional. But we have to start dismantling that ability,

683
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: that knee jerk reaction and say, well, even if you

684
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: do panic, or even if you have a scary thought

685
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: about stabbing your dog, for instance, you can handle that distress.

686
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: You know, this is a big, big leap for a

687
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: lot of people, but handle it, and then you learn

688
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: that you don't have to fear the internal state. Even

689
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: if I panic, I'm okay. Though most people would think, well,

690
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 3: if you haven't attacks, you try to learn how to

691
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 3: not panic. No, no, you should probably try to learn

692
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 3: how to get better at having a panic attack. Then

693
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 3: if you're not afraid of it anymore, then there is

694
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: no it anymore. So you might still be anxious. I'm

695
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: a human being. I can be anxious some days. I'm

696
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: just not afraid of the anxious state anymore. So there

697
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 3: is no it for there's nothing to come back, there's

698
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: no relapse for me to matter.

699
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: How do you how do you work on? How do

700
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: you not be afraid of it? You know, I mean

701
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: without experience. Essentially, it's like you need the reps that

702
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: thank you.

703
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: This was worth the price of admission right there. What

704
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: Oliver just said one hundred percent only experience, because the

705
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: part of your brain that controls these functions does not

706
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: listen to words, memes, mantras, sayings, song lyrics, poetry, all

707
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 3: lovely things that we all enjoy and enrich our lives.

708
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: But that part of your brain does not understand I

709
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: am a warrior, this too shall pass, This too shall pass.

710
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: It is okay, I am strong, I am light. It

711
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: is not listening. It's like making a phone call with

712
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: somebody that doesn't own a phone. It's not even ring.

713
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: I don't even know your call it. So it only

714
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: understands experience behavior. So the only way to learn that

715
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: you don't have You can't just decide to be not

716
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 3: be afraid. So people are like, oh, I have to

717
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 3: just not fear it, Well you can. You can learn

718
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 3: that you don't have to fear it. How do you

719
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: do that? Experience, I stopped trying to save myself from myself.

720
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 3: I wind up. Okay, I have no other conclusion to draw.

721
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 3: Then I don't have to fear this. It was unique

722
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 3: that saved me. I just it goes away if I

723
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: leave it alone. Yeah, it's a big it's a big ask,

724
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: don't get me wrong, moody and people are like, like,

725
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: what is he talking about? How is that possible?

726
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: Of course? I mean I can even go there, you know.

727
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: I mean, even when I'm on medication, I'll have my

728
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 2: there's certain moments, you know, where you can go down

729
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: a bit of a rabbit hole and I'm like, well,

730
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: I'm not going to die. I know I'm not going

731
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: to die. I know I'm just maybe going through a

732
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: little something right here. But then, you know, you can

733
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: you can even trick yourself to thinking, well, maybe this

734
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: is maybe this is the time that I I am dying,

735
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, even someone who is

736
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: a fucking salty veteran of anxiety, sometimes I'll be like, uh,

737
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: wait a minute, what if I actually am having a

738
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 2: heart attack?

739
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: Now I feel you. Oh man, I get that so

740
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 3: much because I have the temerity to write books about

741
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 3: this shit and like change my whole life to become

742
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: a therapist. Like that's how recovered I think I am.

743
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 3: It takes a pretty big set right, all right, Even

744
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 3: my brain many years after that episode of my life

745
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: is over and I do not have an anxiety disorder,

746
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: nor am I afraid of my anxiety. If I'm in

747
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: a really anxious state. There is still a little part

748
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 3: of my brain that will just like.

749
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: You know, there's gonna be a stroke.

750
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: This is hip, dude, so they're gonna be there, right,

751
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: And I'm like, yeah up, man like, but I've learned

752
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 3: that in that moment, as a human being, you can't

753
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: help but be startled and brace against that one moment. Yep,

754
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: after that moment, I've done it enough, right, say well,

755
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: I got to roll the dice here, I'm gonna have

756
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 3: to just roll. Yes, I'm like, all right, yeah, I go.

757
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: It's the recovery from an anxiety disorder is the shorten

758
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 3: amount of time between oh my god, which everybody has

759
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: and oh well the exactly time is just really short

760
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: now it used to be months. That's great, But it

761
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: sounds like you're doing the same thing.

762
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh for sure, Yeah for sure. I mean without

763
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: a doubt. What about empathy? You know, I know empathy

764
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: is a good word. You know, someone who can feel it.

765
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: So empathy can go off the rails. I think too,

766
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: when someone feels too much, you know, I think I

767
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: feel like I teeter on that a little bit, like

768
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: I take in a lot of feelings, you know, like

769
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, I care about people's feelings that you know.

770
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: Do you think sensitivity plays into it?

771
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 3: Does that? Yeah? So personality traits that make you more

772
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 3: introspective or where you are, we would call it neuroticism.

773
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean disease. It just means that you're inwardly

774
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 3: focused and you put a lot of stock on your

775
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 3: internal experience, like your feelings and your thoughts and your emotions.

776
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: It does make you vulnerable because in situations like the

777
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: one I'm describing or the one you and I have

778
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: both lived, the way out is to stop obeying every

779
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: thought and emotion you have. It will it will drag

780
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: you up and down the block like blooding, because it

781
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: just keeps telling you to do stuff to be safe.

782
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 3: But you're already safe, So it's it's tough. If you're

783
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: wired to honor and feel and hug those emotions, every

784
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: thought is sacred, you have an increased vulnerability of developing

785
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 3: this kind of problem because it seems ridiculous to disobey

786
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 3: your thoughts. What do you mean my thoughts? They're very important,

787
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 3: not always brains make beautiful, beautiful, beautiful stuff, and they're

788
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 3: super valuable for us. They can also make total shit,

789
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 3: and we have to learn what they are making shan.

790
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's that's cognitive behavioral therapy, right, that's your thoughts,

791
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: and it's catastrophizing, it's just creating, you know, these kind

792
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: of scenarios, these false narratives that are just completely causing

793
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: you distress and pain, physical pain in your body, when

794
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: when that hasn't even happened yet. Yeah, you know what

795
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 2: I mean. One of the funny it has even happened yet.

796
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. One of the funniest things online I

797
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: ever saw with somebody posted you know, anxiety is basically

798
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: conspiracy theories about yourself, which is for one like that

799
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: killed me, I stay safe.

800
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

801
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: The interesting thing about cognitive behavioral therapy is it is

802
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 3: the most effective the let's say there's a big umbrella.

803
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,479
Speaker 3: CBT has a big umbrella now, and it is the

804
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: most effective treatment we have. Barn Up, it's not even

805
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: a question. So that's that's a fact. That's not a question.

806
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 3: But yeah, tea in the old school was all about, well,

807
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 3: we teach you that your thoughts are irrational, and then

808
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 3: you change your thoughts, and so we hear things change

809
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: your thoughts change, choose your thoughts. Wisely, like me that

810
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: are more third wave oriented, we say you can't. You

811
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 3: don't get to choose your thoughts. You can always choose

812
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 3: what to think, you can never choose what not to think.

813
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 3: So just knowing that your thought about the poison orange

814
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 3: juice is irrational doesn't change shit, because it's still a

815
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: powerful physical response. So lean we lead with behavioral change,

816
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 3: informed by that, the education that tells you that your

817
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 3: thoughts are irrational and you really are safe. The thought

818
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 3: change and the emotion change follows behind. That's in the

819
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 3: last twenty five or thirty years, early seasons. We change

820
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: your thoughts, we change your life. No, no, we expose

821
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: your thoughts, you change your behavior, You change your thoughts,

822
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 3: change your life.

823
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: Right, and then there's the reframing sort of of those

824
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: thoughts as those really sort of irrational thoughts.

825
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: Right, But like one of the common things would be

826
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 3: people that have anxiety disorders live by what if, like

827
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: you said, well what if I am actually having a

828
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: heart attack? Or well what if I go to that

829
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: birthday party and I panic and I make a scene. Well, now,

830
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 3: common sense approach would be, well that's an irrational fear.

831
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 3: What if you have a great time, whereas I might say, well,

832
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: you might have a panic attack, but even if you do,

833
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: you'll be okay. That's much more valuable than saying that's irrational.

834
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: You might have a great time maybe or maybe you won't,

835
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: but either way you can be okay.

836
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I go and I throw up in front

837
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: of thee with the party, like, no one's going to

838
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: really give a shit.

839
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 3: And even if they do, sometimes unpleasant experiences, right, can

840
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 3: we do it? Yeah?

841
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well it's almost funny because it is just fear

842
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: of exposure, of looking bad, of just being that person

843
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: you know that everyone might talk about or causing that scene,

844
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: the avoidance.

845
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 3: Of internal experiences. I never I don't want to feel bad.

846
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: Oh god. I when I used to leave the house,

847
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: which by the way, I wasn't the one to sit inside,

848
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: like I would just come. I would just fight through everything, clearly,

849
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: but I would. I would as I'm walking down the street,

850
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: I would look for places to throw up that no

851
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: one would see me. I mean literally, I'd be like no,

852
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 2: I mean it was like the terminator sort of scanning

853
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: where to pew grid, like only three people over there,

854
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: you know, I mean it was crazy.

855
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 3: I find that fascinating. Makers The range of responses people

856
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 3: have are huge, Like, that's no joke, man, that's a

857
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of steel backbone in that.

858
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: So what about your kids? Did you did you? Were

859
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: you going through this when you're when you had kids,

860
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 2: or you were through it?

861
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: No, when I was in the last phase there, I

862
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 3: was medicated when my kids were born, so I was

863
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 3: not anticipating it was not good. So again my personal experience,

864
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 3: I'm not judging anybody else's, but that was the reason

865
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: why I stopped taking the meds. You know, I wrote

866
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: about that in my first book, which could get for free.

867
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: We'll talk about that. Yeah, but it was an incident

868
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 3: with my kids when they were like four and two

869
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: years old. My four year old said something that I

870
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: will take to my fucking grave. I'm like, okay, this

871
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: isn't okay. I have something has to change. I was.

872
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: I was at my doctors the next day. I need

873
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 3: stuff to oh wow. Yeah.

874
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

875
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: So but then I was going through all the crazy

876
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 3: withdrawal when the kids were little, and when I was doing.

877
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: And how was that just trying to be a father

878
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: and you know what I mean, like kids, we're you

879
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: just have to fight through it though, right, and the

880
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 2: other alternative is to sit in bed.

881
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: But couldn't do that right, I felt like such. I

882
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: don't know if you ever experienced this, but I really

883
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: felt like the worst father ever. Like, not only was

884
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 3: I failing on a daily basis because I was afraid

885
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 3: to do like regular life shit that nobody thinks about,

886
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 3: but I start to feel like a failure. I became

887
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 3: a motivator for me, like, no, no, no, I can't,

888
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 3: we're not doing this.

889
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Along those lines of people who might be listening,

890
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: who are sort of suffering with children and trying to

891
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: sort of be a you know, provide emotional, you know,

892
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: support for their children or to be parents, how do

893
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: you navigate that? I mean, first of all, you might

894
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: feel like a failure, but I guess you're not a failure.

895
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: You were going through what you're going through to try

896
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 2: to be to try to get better essentially.

897
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 3: I mean I can go by my own personal experience.

898
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: I mean, my kids watched me get better, so they did. Yeah,

899
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: and we've talked about it openly now that they're older,

900
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: they're you know, they're young adults now, so we've talked

901
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 3: about it. Openly and clearly. I've written books about it.

902
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 3: I tell the world my experience, so I'm not hiding it.

903
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: But they watched me get better. I think it can

904
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: be tough if you feel like you can't get better.

905
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: And my only coping strategy is extreme avoidance, whether it's

906
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 3: staying in the house or ritualizing my life very tightly

907
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 3: to stay keep from panicing and get too anxious. That

908
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 3: could be tough because the kids can see that. But

909
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: it's okay kids to see you struggle like because they're

910
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: going to struggle too in life. Yeah.

911
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. And when when when Wilder was going through it,

912
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: you know, I told him, I said, do you it

913
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: was this summer? I think it was. It was literally

914
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: I was only a summer removed from my third bout

915
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: of this. And and I said, did you know that

916
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: that whole summer we had, I was going through my

917
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: own insane, intense anxiety And he didn't know.

918
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 3: You didn't know, right, my kids?

919
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: No, because I hit it very very well, you know.

920
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: I mean I was upbeating and I mean, oh my god,

921
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: you know, but he didn't. And I said, dude, I

922
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: was really struggling.

923
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: You know, he probably was surprised to hear that.

924
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: I bet, Oh yeah he was. He was, And you know,

925
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: I just think that related to be able to relate

926
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: to him that way and let him know that sort

927
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: of I was feeling these things as well. Who knows

928
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 2: if it helped them or not, but.

929
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 3: Maybe, I mean, you know what, you know, you were

930
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: able to understand that, like you normalize the experience, Graham.

931
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean I have even had My dad had

932
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 3: it too, Grandma, Yeah, it's good.

933
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: To have your kids. Have your kids been through anything

934
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: like that, or have they suffered at all.

935
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: I'll tell you a really funny story, which this is

936
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 3: so indicative of how parents freak out, like I'm going

937
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 3: to give it to my kids or I'm a fan

938
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: teaching my kids to have panic disorder. So, uh, my

939
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: youngest was in high school and the phone rings one

940
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: day and it's her. She's at school, and I'm my god,

941
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 3: I got to answer that she's calling me from the high school.

942
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 3: It's up mmm, and you know, as kids would do.

943
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 3: She's a great student and all graduating in top of

944
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: the class, but she had not done her homework or whatever.

945
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 3: She forgot the study, she forgot an assignment and she's

946
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: standing outside her English class and she's freaking out because

947
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: I forgot to finish the paper. Oh my god, and

948
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 3: the pressure of the grades and getting into college. You

949
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: know that stuff, right, Yeah, yeah, And she had a

950
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: panic attack. She said, I think I'm having PANICTCT. She's

951
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 3: panting a little, and in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,

952
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: first I got to coach you through it. The anxiety.

953
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: Dude's going to coach you through it, and then we're

954
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 3: gonna sit home and teach you all about panic disorder.

955
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: She ended the panic attack. I texted about ten minutes later.

956
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, She's like, yeah, I'm good. Thanks. She

957
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 3: never mentioned it again. She did not need to talk

958
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 3: about it ever. Again, she is the typical Western adult experience.

959
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 3: She had a panic attack, able to understand why it

960
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: was externalized. So even the word anxiety, like oh, I'm

961
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 3: really anxious because like we're having money problems, or maybe

962
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 3: how to fight my partner or the kids are driving

963
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 3: me crazy. People know I'm anxious because they don't internalize it.

964
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 3: She never internalized it was a panic attack.

965
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think that's an important lesson. Honestly, It's like,

966
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: if you have a panic attack. Just let it be

967
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: a panic attack and don't worry about having another one.

968
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: I know that that's tough, easier said than done, such.

969
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 3: An adverse experience for so many people.

970
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah right.

971
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 3: One of the things that's tough about that, though, is

972
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: in the culture we're in right now, especially online, wellness instantly.

973
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: Be bombard answering my question.

974
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: Okay, we're always being bombarded with messages that we should

975
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: be able to hack our brains, hack our bodies, happiness,

976
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: only vibrate positivity, and every negative experience could be avoided

977
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 3: with boundaries air quotes, fucking boundary and you know, and

978
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 3: somehow there's a technique to always be happy or fix

979
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 3: your negative experience. I believe we weren't allowed to have

980
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 3: negative experiences. It's full of them, so we better to

981
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 3: deal with them right out of popular stands though.

982
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: No, no, but but an important one, you know, because

983
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: everything is fucking you know, like roses and rainbows like that,

984
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: that is not life. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And that's leading

985
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 2: me to sort of my like, you know, we're getting

986
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: to the end. But just anxiety today it is in

987
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: your opinion, is it just labeled like ADHD because I'm

988
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: sure I had it, but no one labeled it back

989
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: in the day. Now everyone has ADHD or are do

990
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: you think we are? Actually we're actually a more anxious

991
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: society because anxiety now is like almost like a buzzword.

992
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean everyone is anxious, and it's like, oh, yeah,

993
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: I have anxiety. It's almost like a hot right now.

994
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 3: I don't disagree with you, right, so tread lightley here,

995
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't disagree with you. Everyone is anxious

996
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 3: because you know what, anxiety is a normal part of

997
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 3: the human experience. It just is. Everybody's always experienced anxiety

998
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: from time to time for various reasons. It's a good

999
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 3: thing that we talk openly about those things now because

1000
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 3: we didn't used to talk about it openly. But we

1001
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: sometimes talk so openly about it that we start to

1002
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: misapply it or twisted a little bit. So it's kind

1003
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 3: of difficult. There's a big difference. You know, I have anxiety, Okay,

1004
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 3: Well why do you have anxiety? Well, my exams coming.

1005
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: I don't know what the hell I'm going to do

1006
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: with my future, Like, I don't know what I'm gonna die.

1007
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 3: I'm lost, I don't know who I am. Okay, You're right,

1008
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: you got anxiety. But that's not a disorder, that's not

1009
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 3: a pathology, that's not a it doesn't necessarily need to

1010
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 3: be fixed. You're working through your life like people do.

1011
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 3: The person who feels that they cannot have stop having

1012
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: disturbing thoughts about having sex with a clergyman, and that

1013
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 3: happens to people out of ocd's. That's something that you

1014
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: do have to work on. So the way, we just

1015
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 3: overuse the words so much that I think they start

1016
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 3: to lose their meaning or their value sometimes, so we

1017
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: have to be careful.

1018
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But do you think that we are becoming

1019
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: a more anxious society generally because of technology, because of comparison,

1020
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: because of I'm not good enough.

1021
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really hard to find some solid ground living

1022
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 3: in a place like we're in right now. Everyone, it's

1023
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 3: a fucking megaphone, and I'm not afraid to scream into

1024
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 3: what we were not designed to hear that twenty four

1025
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 3: to seven, which is not Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just

1026
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: it's just so interesting because it's it's evolutionary. I mean,

1027
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 3: we are now evolving as a different kind of species

1028
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 3: than we we would have without all of this. These

1029
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: things are so informative, and I would just urge everyone

1030
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 3: to go check you out Anxious Truth to podcast and

1031
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 3: the feed and the books and all of it.

1032
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 2: And why don't you want it? Before I go? Whyt

1033
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 2: you to tell your book? What books you got?

1034
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 3: Well? I wrote? I actually wrote three books. The first

1035
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 3: one is called an Anxiety Story. So if you really

1036
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: want to hear the gory teal details of what I lived,

1037
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: that one to giveaway. You're going to cite the Anxious

1038
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: Truth dot com. You can get that just follow the links.

1039
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 3: You can get a PDF or an MP three is free.

1040
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: Then I wrote I wrote this book which is called

1041
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 3: The Anxious Truth. This book you can't it's just not

1042
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 3: a video podcast, but I.

1043
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: Brought it is it is there's we we we post, so.

1044
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 3: You post the video, you know. So I wrote a

1045
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 3: book called The Anxious Truth that is geared for people

1046
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 3: who are dealing with anxiety to sort of recovery. And

1047
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 3: then I wrote one called seven Percent Lower, which is

1048
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: about using a trick of just slowing your ass down

1049
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 3: to avoid getting into that like frantic. I have to

1050
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 3: fix myself.

1051
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, when you say slow yourself down, briefly, is

1052
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: what is that you mean.

1053
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 3: Seven percent lower. Is this I know what sounds like

1054
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 3: the Dan Harris ten percent happier thing. In fact, I'm like, hmmm,

1055
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: gonna come be like, sorry, Dan, I didn't mean that.

1056
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 3: I came up for myself. When I used to was

1057
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 3: doing exposure work and my exposure therapy, back when I

1058
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 3: was doing my recovery work, I would have to remind

1059
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: myself slow down, slow down. I'm like, just go seven

1060
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 3: percent slower. That's enough. I can't measure it, but it

1061
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 3: would remind me when I wanted to run and rush

1062
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 3: through anxious situations, it would remind me no, no, no, no,

1063
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 3: slow down, slow down. It's a really powerful trick.

1064
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: So it's that that's important. I'm a mindfulness So kids

1065
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 2: like advice that you might have when your children are

1066
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 2: going through something like this, you know when there's a ten, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,

1067
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: even fifteen sixteen, because it can be so debilitating for

1068
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 2: the little ones. You know, they're the teenagers who don't

1069
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: know what the fuck it is. And you know, again,

1070
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: this idea of appearance and looking normal and looking good

1071
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 2: and being cool, and it can weigh on you without anxiety,

1072
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 2: like do you have any sort of advice on how

1073
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 2: to deal with your children who might be going through

1074
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: having a bouts of anxiety.

1075
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very similar to what I've been saying the

1076
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 3: whole time, but it's difficult. I'm a parent, you're a parent,

1077
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: you get this. So when your kid is under duress

1078
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 3: and they're they're freaking out and they're clearly stressed and suffering,

1079
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 3: we want them to feel better. Like, it's really hard

1080
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 3: to not want to fix your kid, of course. Yeah.

1081
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 3: The thing that could be kind of difficult, though, is

1082
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 3: when your kid is afraid of their own thoughts and

1083
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 3: their own body and their own feelings and sensations. The

1084
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 3: best approach is to try to help them understand that

1085
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 3: because I totally understand that this is legit scary, Like

1086
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 3: it's not just all in your head. You know that

1087
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 3: was not just on your head, nor was it in

1088
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 3: your son's head. It was real, legit physical sensations and fear.

1089
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: And I know that's really scary, But I also know

1090
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: that you're safe, and I'm gonna hang out here with

1091
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 3: you and while you work through this, and I know

1092
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: that what we want to do is try to teach

1093
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 3: them this is how you calm down This is how

1094
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 3: you ground, this is how you prevent, This is how

1095
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 3: you manage your triggers and stay away from triggers. But

1096
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: that tends to perpetuate the problem because it says, yeah,

1097
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 3: never let myself ever feel this. I have to prevent,

1098
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: whereas the most valuable, though difficult to teach lesson is

1099
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: the one that says, even that scary feeling is actually safe.

1100
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: So let's try and work through the other side of it,

1101
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 3: and it's gonna be really good for you. Then you

1102
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: won't be so afraid of it. Every time you do that,

1103
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: it'll get less scary. And I'm gonna I know you

1104
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: can do it. I ain't gonna let anything bad happen

1105
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 3: to you. That's what I would tell them.

1106
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Pars, great, dude, Well this has been so fun, man, amazing.

1107
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 2: I've been looking forward to this for a minute, and

1108
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: I appreciate all your insights and I think you're doing good. Shit.

1109
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I love it, And I know that you

1110
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: said that, you know earlier on it was you know,

1111
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: it's hard to make it's hard to feel better when

1112
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: you're going through your shit, meaning like there's not a

1113
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 2: lot that anyone can say to you that's going to

1114
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: make you feel better, you know. But I will say,

1115
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: and I'm not just blown smoke, but you know your

1116
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: your Instagram feed, it does. I mean it really does,

1117
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: because you can chuckle at a lot of these things

1118
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: where you're like, oh my god, that's me, you know,

1119
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: do that and and and and there's such a you know,

1120
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: when you don't feel like you're alone, or if there

1121
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 2: is a meme or something that you put up there

1122
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: that touches you, you know, that makes you chuckle, it

1123
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 2: almost makes you smile and laugh because it's so spot

1124
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 2: on there you do there, you you do feel some

1125
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 2: sort of alleviation. You are at ease a little bit more.

1126
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 3: So.

1127
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: Thank you, you know, I think that it does help anyway,

1128
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 2: Thank you brother. That was great. That was a long

1129
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 2: time coming. I've wanted to talk to Drew for a minute.

1130
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 2: I know I've been just like pushing all of this stuff,

1131
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,479
Speaker 2: but it really is from someone who's been through the shit,

1132
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: you know, with my own anxiety. Coming across his you know,

1133
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: his Instagram feed was amazing and immediately I got to

1134
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 2: talk to this guy obviously extremely insightful. I love everyone.

1135
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 2: I love y' all for listening to me and just me, Peace,