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Speaker 1: Robert Mueller's appointment a special Council marks a pivotal moment

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Speaker 1: for Donald Trump's presidency and the investigation into possible links

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Speaker 1: between his campaign and the Russian government. The former FBI

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Speaker 1: director will have broad powers, including the authority to pursue

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Speaker 1: criminal charges. He won't have complete independence, but he will

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Speaker 1: have a longer lease than a traditional federal prosecutor would have.

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Speaker 1: With us to discuss the appointment and what it could

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Speaker 1: mean are William Wild, former governor of Massachusetts and also

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Speaker 1: former U S Attorney in Boston, where one of the

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Speaker 1: lawyers working under him was Robert Mueller. And William Banks,

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Speaker 1: who was a director of the Institute for National Security

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Speaker 1: and counter Terrorism at Syracuse Law School. Welcome to you both, Governor. UM,

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Speaker 1: I do want to get into how much both power

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Speaker 1: and independence Bob Muller will have. But but if I

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Speaker 1: could just briefly get your reaction to the appointment of

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Speaker 1: Mueller by the Deputy Attorney General. Was this a good move? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I think it's a good move for the entire country

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Speaker 1: and and for the world. I mean, I've known Bob

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Speaker 1: Mueller for a long time. I I hired him to

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Speaker 1: the San Francisco U S. Attorney's office. Way back in

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Speaker 1: two he came to Boston where I was the U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney and became head of the Criminal Division, the

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Speaker 1: deputy U S Attorney. Then he succeeded me as U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney. I went to Washington to be head of

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Speaker 1: the Criminal Division and main Justice. He succeeded me in

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Speaker 1: that position. And uh, you know, he's just the straightest

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Speaker 1: guy I've ever met in my life and very able.

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Speaker 1: So I think the country and the world can have

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Speaker 1: confidence that no stone will be left unturned. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, there's gonna be no slanting of anything, there

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Speaker 1: will not be a witch hunt, there will not be

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Speaker 1: politics involved in this investigation. Director Banks, the office into

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Speaker 1: which he is stepping is different from the office occupied

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Speaker 1: by independent councils like Kenneth Starr and Lawrence Walsh. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted you to explain just what the differences are,

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Speaker 1: how he is not entirely separate from the Justice Department.

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Speaker 1: It's a good question, because Governor Weld said, because this

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Speaker 1: is Bob Mueller, the differences that we can identify now

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Speaker 1: aren't going to matter so much because of his tremendous

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Speaker 1: integrity and the reputation that he brings to this assignment.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely no one will have any doubt about the independence

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Speaker 1: of the investigation, or, as the Governor said, the thoroughness

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Speaker 1: that said, the regulations now are Justice Department regulations. So

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Speaker 1: unlike the the independent councils of old, the Lawrence Walsh

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Speaker 1: and ken Starr investigations and others, this one is not

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Speaker 1: authorized by statute. It's authorized by the Department itself. So

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Speaker 1: in theory and in practice, Mueller will report to the

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Speaker 1: Attorney General. UH So he's he's uh, he's authorized under

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Speaker 1: this uh, this notice from Mr Rosenstein to conduct the

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Speaker 1: investigation that was described and confirmed James Colemey and his

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Speaker 1: testimony before the House Intelligence Committee. He's authorized to look

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Speaker 1: into any links or coordination between the Russian government and

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Speaker 1: those associated with the Trump campaign. And he matters that

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Speaker 1: arose or could rise directly from that investigation and any

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Speaker 1: other matters within the scope of federal law. So it's

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Speaker 1: a very broad uh mandate. And and indeed, in theory

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Speaker 1: he could be questioned by the Attorney General. But because

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Speaker 1: it's Bob Muller, I think none of us will worry

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Speaker 1: about that. Governor. Well, one difference is that Ken Starr

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Speaker 1: could not be fired by the president. Um as if

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Speaker 1: I understand this correctly, Donald Trump could actually direct that

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Speaker 1: that Bob Muller be fired. Do you think that will

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Speaker 1: affect his work, make it more difficult for him? No,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to slow him down one iota because

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't care if somebody did the wrong thing and

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Speaker 1: and fired him. He's just going to get to the

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Speaker 1: bottom of it. He would be a complete terrier. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And as I say it's gonna be, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: even handed, I would expect. And by the way, special

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Speaker 1: counsel don't have to indict anybody just because they have

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Speaker 1: that power. And and you know, when I was head

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Speaker 1: of the Criminal Division and Main Justice, I operated under

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Speaker 1: that uh independent Council statute. And my memory is more

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Speaker 1: often than not no charges were filed. So people shouldn't

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Speaker 1: rush to assume that they're going to be criminal indictments

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Speaker 1: out of this. Uh. My My guess is that under

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Speaker 1: all the circumstances, uh, Mr Muller might find it appropriate

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Speaker 1: to issue a report of his findings with the FBI's

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Speaker 1: findings at the end of the investigation, which he certainly

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Speaker 1: has the power to do. I mean, even a grand

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Speaker 1: jury can issue a report of its findings if it

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Speaker 1: if it wants to, and that would I think make

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Speaker 1: everybody feel better. We're talking about Robert Mueller's appointment as

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Speaker 1: special counsel with William Well, the former governor of Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: and a man who hired Robert Mueller for the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Attorney's Office in Boston, and William Banks, he is the

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Speaker 1: director of the Institute for National Security and counter Terrorism

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Speaker 1: at Syracuse Law School. Governor World, you were talking a

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Speaker 1: moment ago about the possibility that this wouldn't end up

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Speaker 1: with any criminal charges but instead a report. How long

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Speaker 1: would you expect this whole process to take this this

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Speaker 1: the allegations here are are quite quite varied, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like there are a number of prongs and that

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Speaker 1: it could be could be certainly months before we get

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Speaker 1: a resolution for this. Oh yeah, it could be months,

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Speaker 1: but that's nothing in complicated criminal investigations. You know, a

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Speaker 1: typical long lead time grand jury investigation in the financial area,

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Speaker 1: it might take eighteen months. But they're not going to

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Speaker 1: let this happen. The Bureau is going to bring all

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Speaker 1: its resources to bear and uh, you know it'll it'll

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Speaker 1: be counted in months, but I think the number will

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Speaker 1: probably be you know, fewer than six, uh and you know,

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Speaker 1: three or four if if possible. But it's a complex

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Speaker 1: investigations the the interest. An interesting point that I think

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Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier is the relationship between the Justice Department

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Speaker 1: investigation and congressional investigations, and conflicts can arise there when

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Speaker 1: Congress immunizes witnesses in order to give testimony publicly before Congress,

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Speaker 1: because once that happens, it's very difficult, if not impossible,

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Speaker 1: to prosecute the person criminally, because you have to prove

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Speaker 1: that none of your leads, none of your evidence, came

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Speaker 1: from the public testimony. That happened with Colonel Oliver North

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Speaker 1: and I ran contra uh in when I was in

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Speaker 1: Washington handling that one, and he could never be prosecuted.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying he would have been, but he never

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Speaker 1: could be. And if I were Michael Flynn's lawyer right now,

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Speaker 1: I would be running, not walking, to the Senate Committee

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Speaker 1: saying we're happy to testify in front of your August bodies.

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Speaker 1: Just understand, my man's a witness, so we'll be there

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Speaker 1: under immunity and boy, do we have a tale to

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Speaker 1: tell that can be very tangy to Congress, and they

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Speaker 1: feel a responsibility to get facts out there, just as

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department does. But we'll see, we'll see how

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Speaker 1: that rolls out, Director Banks. If there are no criminal

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Speaker 1: charges that are likely to come from this, what will

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Speaker 1: be the ultimate use of the final report? Uh? From

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Speaker 1: Mr Muller, I think Governor Well put it well. Many

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Speaker 1: times these investigations do not lead to criminal indictments, but

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Speaker 1: instead to a report, and the report its purposes not

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Speaker 1: to answer public questions about what happened, but to determine

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Speaker 1: a set of foreign intelligence and counter intelligence objectives that

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Speaker 1: may or may not have criminal attributes. So it will

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Speaker 1: be important to put the possibility of criminal conduct in

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Speaker 1: this area to rest. What what was not emphasized in

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Speaker 1: the appointment of Mueller for obvious reasons, is that the

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Speaker 1: underlying investigation remains about the influences of Russia on the

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Speaker 1: presidential election. So whatever Congress does going forward will certainly

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Speaker 1: focus on that question. It's a very important question. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, it could get into questions about whether sanctions

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Speaker 1: are appropriate in response to the activity of a hostile

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Speaker 1: foreign power, whether the oversight powers of Congress have revealed

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Speaker 1: something about fraud or abuse in the executive branch, and

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Speaker 1: whether Congress might need new legislative measures to protect our

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Speaker 1: electoral system. What about I'm sorry, just what about Trump's

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Speaker 1: possible obstruction of justice? Who was investigating that? Well, that

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Speaker 1: would be Mr Mueller. It's possible for Congress to conduct

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Speaker 1: its own investigation, but to the extent there's criminal wrongdoing

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Speaker 1: that's encompassed in the Justice Department writ governor world Uh

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Speaker 1: the um his uh. Mr Muller's law firm, Wilmer Hale

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Speaker 1: is old law firm apparently represented Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner,

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Speaker 1: Paul Manafort, all players in this whole whole affair, and

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Speaker 1: in Richard Painter, the former chief astic ethics officer in

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Speaker 1: the in the George W. Bush administration, has suggested that

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Speaker 1: Bob Mauler might need to recuse himself from decisions involving

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Speaker 1: those people because of the involvement of his former law firm.

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Speaker 1: If that happens, Um, how much of a complication is

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Speaker 1: that for this investigation? You know, I'm not sure I

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Speaker 1: see Bob needing to recuse himself because of relationships of

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Speaker 1: his former law firm. Uh. You know, if he personally

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Speaker 1: worked on those cases, which I very much doubt, that

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Speaker 1: would be a different matter. But I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I see that as a big stumbling uh block

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Speaker 1: to his investigation and Director Banks. Do we need a

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Speaker 1: select committee or some other kind of independent commission in

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Speaker 1: addition to Muller's investigation and those already going on in Congress?

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Speaker 1: I think to focus on the underlying question of the

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Speaker 1: Russian involvement in the election and future threats to the

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Speaker 1: integrity of our electoral system, something like an independent commission

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Speaker 1: would be a very a good idea. It's it's follows

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Speaker 1: a different path and has different objectives than an investigation

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Speaker 1: of any association of the Trump campaign with this matter. Governor, Well,

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Speaker 1: let me just give you the last word that there's

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Speaker 1: a Law Street Journal editorial today that said that Mr

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Speaker 1: Muller will be quote under pressure to bring criminal indictments

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Speaker 1: of some kind to justify his existence. Uh. They worry

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Speaker 1: that he will become also quote de facto untouchable. Well,

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Speaker 1: we only have about thirty seconds left. Let maybe I

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Speaker 1: could get your reaction to that. Well, if anybody's not

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Speaker 1: going to buckle the pressure, it's going to be Bob Mueller.

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Speaker 1: He has nothing, nothing to prove to anybody. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to go out and make a name for himself.

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Speaker 1: He's He's made a great name and life for himself already.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think that he would succumb in any

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Speaker 1: degree to political pressure. It wouldn't matter who was yelling

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Speaker 1: at him or pointing fingers. That's one advantage of having

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Speaker 1: led a long, good and productive life, as he has. Well.

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Speaker 1: People yelling at other people and pointing fingers is what

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Speaker 1: happens in this town, so there may well be some

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Speaker 1: of that. I want to thank our guests William Well,

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Speaker 1: former Massachusetts governor, and William Banks, director of the Institute

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Speaker 1: for National Security and counter Terrorism at Syracuse Law School,

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Speaker 1: for joining us here on Bloomberg Law coming up. The

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Speaker 1: eye word is in the air. That's impeachment. But is

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Speaker 1: it perhaps Democrats who have something to worry about and

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Speaker 1: maybe they should be careful. We'll discuss discuss that in

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Speaker 1: a few moments. You're listening to Bloomberg Law. This is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg