WEBVTT - Inequality of the Coronavirus Outbreak 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.959 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts and more than a 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.959 hundred and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.079 Business Week on iTunes, soundclad bl Bloomberg dot com. 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The virus clearly, UH 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.400 continues to be front of mine, and yet I feel 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.920 like we're looking at it, maybe in a more complicated 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.480 way and a more complex way, not in a bad way. 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.600 Candid League, Carol, and this next guest has always kept 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.600 us on us when we've talked to him about some 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.320 of the demographic, the socio economic elements of this that 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.960 we cannot forget right and I feel like it's been exacerbated. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.240 Are reminded even more because of the last couple of weeks, Um, 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.679 the black community right again impacted disproportionately. Um, when it 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.720 comes to certainly the virus, we saw that, and then 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.600 equality and justice. So perfect voice for us on this Monday. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.280 Welcome back Dr Sandro Gillia. He's dean and professor at 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.679 Boston University School of Public Health and his author pained 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:27.360 uncomfortable conversations about the public's health. Conversations though that need 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:28.959 to be had, he joins us once again on the 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.920 phone from Boston. Dr Gilia, Nice to have you back 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.800 with us. UM. I do wonder, both Jason and I 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.760 do wonder how you're thinking has continued to evolve because 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.640 of what's happened, not only in the past thirteen weeks, 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:43.200 because of the virus. We've talked to you about that, 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.080 but then what's happened in the past two weeks, what 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.880 we've seen out of Minneapolis. You know, first of all, 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.440 thank you for having me always. I think what we're 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:56.280 seeing coming out of Minneapolis is an expression of justifiable, 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:03.920 entirely understandable anger and frustration with decades and centuries long injustices, 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.720 and that I think is reflected in the protest we 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.320 have seen around police around policing and around systemic racism. Now, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.000 when you think about that one question, you might ask, well, 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:16.440 what does it have to do with COVID, What does 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.840 it at the moment we've been living through. But I 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:23.720 would argue that these underlying structural forces that divide us, 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.360 that divide us on racial ethnic lines, that divide us 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.840 on social class lines, also are the story of COVID. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.800 COVID was a virus that early on said world virus 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.520 effect everybody. Sure it does, but it doesn't affect everybody equally. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.760 We know now that the greater burden of COVID infections 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.440 disproportionately falls on minorities, on people of color. We know 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.600 that among those who are infected, the greater proportion of death, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.919 a great egshbit of death falls on people of color 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.040 and people who are socio economically marginalized. And that reflects 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:01.640 this underlying division that shape and colors our society. And 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.079 those are really the same forces that we are now 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:08.440 seeing flare up in uh in this anger that emerged 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.440 obviously from the George Floyd killing and the other killings 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.720 around it. So we do have here commonalities. We have 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:18.160 essentially a pandemic unemployment, civil unrest, all of which is 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.840 reflecting underlying deep racial and socio economic device and so 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:28.720 Dr Ghalia, how do we go about solving this structurally 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.640 from a health perspective? Because all of these things, and 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.320 I think you've pointed this out to us before rightly, 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:40.119 are all intertwined. Whether it's health, education, transportation, housing, all 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.320 of it is tied together. But just taking health and 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.960 your specialty and public health specifically, what are the ways 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.440 that that maybe we can be thinking about, uh, to 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.040 start to change the structure of this. Yeah, I think, uh, 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.320 it thinks a great question, and I think it's a 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:00.840 it's a natural question, and I sup pose I would 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.800 invert the question because I don't. I do not think 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.840 you can treat this just as a health problem. Interesting, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.880 I think that health is ineluctably linked with housing, with fair, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.080 fair wages, with gender equity, with clean air, drinkable water, 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.320 with the way we structure our society overall. And this 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.400 is why health and social justice are so inextricably intertwined, 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.880 because there is no solution that focuses only on health. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.479 If we focus only on health, what ends up happening 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.200 is we end up borrowing and borrowing more, ever more, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.279 deeply in spending money on healthcare, and of course, spending 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.919 money on healthcare as as you know, as the listeners know, 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.920 is fleeting disease after people are already sick. But of 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.919 course people are getting sick to begin with because of 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.799 these underlying issues. And let's take let's take one complete example. 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.599 Let's take the economic collapse that has happened after a 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.520 COVID we all, we all notice you talk about it 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.560 quite a bit in your show. But of course the 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.640 economic collapse has been uneven t thirty six million jobs 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:01.279 have been lost so far in where health of the 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.320 jobs lost were helped by people who are already had 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.479 an animal alsehold income of below the unemployment rate among 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:13.480 white's fourteen percent, among black seventeen percent among Latin X populations. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.159 So what we're seeing here is even in something like this, 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.560 which is an economic collapse which is widespread, which you 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:23.080 report correctly has been widespread, is furthering these divides. And 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.400 these are the social divides that are going to become 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.719 health divide. So let's take for a second, let's let's 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.279 assume let's agree that unemployment results in bad health. That's 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.840 that's not a controversial. That's not a comrevercial statement, right, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.440 So I'm telling unemployment results in bad health. I'm also 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.960 telling you that unemployment is this proportion and among people 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.160 who are already poorer than people who are richer. So 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.760 it doesn't take a sort of too many logical steps 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.000 to realize that that means that people who are poorer 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:49.760 are going to get sicker, people who are richer are 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.720 going to get healthier. Now, if we focused on that 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.120 as a strictly health problem, we are going to be 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.320 throwing money at healthcare to help fix people who have 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.000 gotten sick. Well, the problem, the reason they got six 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.640 to begin with is because they were already economically marginalized 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.760 and because they became unemployed in a time of COVID. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.920 So when you see it that way, the two are inextricable. 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.719 And I think a health agenda has to include an 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.960 economic agenda. I totally agree. God, we were talking about 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.480 this a lot over the weekend, about what it is 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.800 to those that are more vulnerable and economically disadvantaged. What 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.200 do we need to do to really make a difference 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.640 with Our guest at this hour is Dr Sandro Galia. Galia. 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.760 He is dean and professor at Boston University School of 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.760 Public Health author pained uncomfortable conversations about the public's health. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.000 Dr Galia, One thing I want to ask you, since 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.120 we you know, we know so much is interconnected in 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.520 terms of, you know, really determining what kind of life 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.560 an individual in America has. So, what do you think 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.599 is the most important difficult conversation that we have to 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.840 have at this point? Is it over housing? Is it transportation? 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.800 Is it wages? Is it taxation? Is it health? What 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.800 the one that we need to have to kind of 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.640 make a difference to the less fortunate populations, and specifically 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.440 since we've talked about it a lot over the last 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.520 couple of weeks and certainly the last thirteen weeks, the 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.520 black population. Yeah, I think that's a that's a terrific 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.360 question and one I must all the time. And is 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.120 it a conversation about making sure everybody has access to 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.679 quality early childhood education, is a conversation about fair wages 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.440 and increasing knowledge? Is it the convertation about affordable housing 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.600 ensuring that everybody there's this food about narrowing wealth gaps 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.680 or redating violence of infginalized groups SPD groups. And the 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.680 answer is I don't know any of these important and others. 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.440 I have to think the hardest conversation is the one 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.960 we're having now. We just to say that all of 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.320 these conversations are important. You know, which of the conversations 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:57.800 become policy solutions depends as much on the connotation as 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.840 it does on the pragmatics of the moment as to 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.160 on what is possible in what jurisdiction. So as not 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.280 un concerned. If there is one thing that we should do, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:08.960 it's to change the conversation and to say that all 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.440 of these are forces that we should discuss in the 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.560 same breath as we discuss health. And when you think 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.200 about COVID and ask myself, you know, what should we 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.400 look back on COVID in ten years time, what's the 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.240 conversation that we should remember. What I'd like us to 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.160 remember is that COVID taught us if you cannot help 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.960 have a healthy country without better education, transportation, wages, housing, food, 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.120 narrowing wealthcaps, reducing violence, better integration of marginalized groups. Because 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.080 all of those forces we have seen play out in 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:39.640 creating the COVID pandemic that we've lived through. So if 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.960 we learn from that, if we learn from that, we 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:46.280 will tackle them and tackle them now. And you know, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:52.800 I do wonder, Dr Galia. Part of this is educating 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.520 maybe the next generation, whether it's the next generation of 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.319 doctors or just the next generation writ large, sort of 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:01.959 a different way or to think in a different way, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.760 and that seems to be coming up repeatedly. And I 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:05.800 think many of us are buoyed by the fact that 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:11.040 a lot of the people protesting peacefully are of many 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.920 different races and colors and backgrounds. Um. I do wonder 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.880 what the conversations are that you're having with your students 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:22.880 and how they might be different from a previous generation. Yeah, 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.760 I I like you by by thinking about the next generation. 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:28.319 One of the privileges of being a dean of the 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:32.120 school that I'm surrounded by the next generation. I all 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.360 of these conversations are happening with our students, but perhaps 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.360 most importantly, our students are leading the appreciations because I 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:42.079 actually think that the generation that is up and coming 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.880 that will be in charge of the world in next 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.439 into years as some interesting ideas. And I don't think 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.880 all of the ideous work I think somebody with somebody 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.240 disagree with, but I think it's UM It's a tremendously 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:59.000 important moment in time to allow ideast by space as 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.080 we can which sift forward, which once we can adopt 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.160 m to use. I think something Carol said before the break, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.960 how we can make sure we actually implement the transformations 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.400 to implement without and making sure that people are not 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.760 hurt in the process and that and that of course 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.040 is critical. So I've been I've been enjoying listening and 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.880 learning from all the ideas emerging from the next generation. 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.520 And of course it's immensely hopeful to think that some 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.439 of these concepts that the three of us are discussing 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.080 their sort of second nature to the generation, and that 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.360 will make the world a better place. I was thinking about, 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.080 I know, Jason, you do this at your home with 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.280 your teenagers and my teenager. To like the way they 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.440 talk about this and approach it gives me hope, I 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.920 have to say, in terms of totally you know the 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.240 possibility of making a difference and looking at it in 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.160 a different way. UM, thank you so much. Dr Sandrow 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.680 Galileo galia He is dean and professor at Boston University 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.319 School of Public Health. Author pained uncomfortable conversations about the 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.280 public's health. And he's so patient because every time I 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:57.960 say his name, I seem to just mess it up. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.000 I mean, he's just such a jam, new and different. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.160 I know, I feel so terrible because I he's one 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.480 of my favorite voices to talk to, because I feel 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.000 like he looks at the world. It's not just healthcare, 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.840 but it's taking everything into account and how do you 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.640 make a difference. Maybe in all of our show calls, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.280 will just say, all right, let's say it again. Sandro Gallea, 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:21.000 Sandra Gallea, I think it's Sandro Sandro Gallea. You're listening 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.880 to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.000 on Bloomberg Radio. One of the issues that we have 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:34.920 been looking at so closely, Carol is what happens next 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.440 and how we got here? And this true from the 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.120 magazine last week, I think is a really important and 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.120 I'm really glad Joel Webber and I were talking about 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:43.640 this earlier that we're getting a chance to talk about it. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.360 Clearance Souneth wrote it, uh and the story has a 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.319 very simple headline, America's safety net is failing. It's workers. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.120 Claire Jones is on the phone from Brooklyn. Joel Webber 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.400 is also with us, the aforementioned Joel Webber. He is 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.640 the editor, of course, of Bloomberg Business Week. So Joel 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.160 help us under dand how this fits into what was 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.200 clearly a broader theme in the magazine and the most 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.080 recent issue of the magazine. So Claire actually started working 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.480 on this story basically right at the very beginning of 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:18.280 the pandemic. And I think she really, uh, she's just 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.160 like one of the most gifted storytellers I think we have. 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.040 And really, I think she was like a laser on 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.720 putting um the you know, the spotlight on on workers, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.319 and one after the next that she talked to, she 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.720 was just getting amazing stuff about them, basically realizing how 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.280 there was no more safety net in this country because 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.400 it's basically just been eroded over time. So when something 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:48.000 like the pandemic hits, everything is overwhelmed and as a result, 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.280 the labor market just goes upside down. And frankly, even 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.040 despite Friday being what those numbers were, it still feels 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.200 like we still don't understand entirely what's going on. And 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.480 I think clear reporting to me, of everything I've read 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.600 so far, was the one That just made me really 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.199 understand it on a more human level. Clear what did 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.920 you how did you find these people and what did 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.600 you hear from them? Um, that is a great question. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.439 I found him a number of ways. Um. I mean 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.440 part of this is this whole story, given the pandemic 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.440 had to be reported remotely. UM. So normally I tried 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.199 to go out and talk to people, but here I 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.240 basically utilized the Internet. I put out a column pretty 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.960 much all social media that I could, and then I 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:38.040 also just reached out to random small business owners. UM. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.720 I read something small in the paper about cheesecake factory 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.960 employees being furloughed and that they had formed a Spacebook group. 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.599 So I talked my way into the Facebook group and 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.200 ended up talking to all these cheesecake factory employees. So 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.120 there's an anecdote about them and there. Um. And it 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.560 was just a lot of I would refer to it 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.679 as on the ground reporting, except it's more like on 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:03.400 the internet reporting. Um. Yeah. And I tried to talk 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.760 to people all over the country. So there are people 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.720 from you know, Virginia to Chicago, to California, to Montana, 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.040 to New Mexico to Texas in the story. Um, to 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.000 paint a pretty wide picture of what it looks like 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:22.240 across America as a whole, and everybody I learned, so 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.680 I did. I started reporting this before the Cares Act passed. UM. 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.360 So the thing that struck me first as people were 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.600 getting laid off during the shutdown the initial couple of 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.600 first weeks in March was that, UM, given the past 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:37.800 work that I have done on stuff similar to this, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.320 I just knew that there wasn't anything available for a 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.080 lot of people. And many people have extreme debt um 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.320 or their health care is tied to their jobs, or 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.680 they don't have health care at all, and so I 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.280 wanted to see what this looks like when you suddenly 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.160 are laid off of work UM, with no opportunity really 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.480 to get another job. I think what was different with 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.600 this pandemic is if you're laid off in a recession, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.440 its docks and it's terrible, but you can look for 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.120 other jobs. But if you're if you're a restaurant worker 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.000 in your restaurant closes, you can't go to another restaurant, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.960 so you had to sit tight UM. And so I 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.160 watched as these people went from having UM no safety 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.840 net whatsoever, the very first people in this story happened 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:25.920 to be working. They were freelance workers, and they happened 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.280 to be working the first sporting event in the US 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.280 that was shut down on March eight, and they had nothing. 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.760 They had, Um, they paid for their own health insurance, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.680 they didn't have you know, any unemployment. They didn't qualify 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.840 the CARES actual later changed that, but it took them 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.840 a month plus to actually get up, you know, through 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.080 the unemployment system, which is you know, it has its 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.960 own issues. And so I started talking to them before 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.360 they could even apply for unemployment and thought they had 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.840 to do this all on their own. And then this 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.480 act gets passed and then they feel better, and then 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.840 it turns out that they have to wait for their 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.080 unemployment and then it's not what they thought it was 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:06.440 going to be. You know, one of them didn't even 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.040 get anything until just a couple of weeks ago. Um, 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.040 and they have been laid off since March. So that's 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.760 basically the story of why we didn't have the set 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:19.160 up in the first place. And then, um, what a 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.440 cluster mess it is to try to build a safety 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.120 net in the middle of a pandemic. Right Well, you 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.280 know what's first of all. I love that you tell 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.560 the personal stories because I feel like sometimes we talked 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.200 from that big perspective, the big broad numbers, But when 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.360 you really hear about, you know, the struggles that so 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.640 many Americans are going through as a result of this, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.000 it's really very telling. The thing is, what's interesting, Claire 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.760 too about your story is the destruction of the middle class. Right. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:47.640 You know, we see people pointing like, you've got to 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.720 have a safety neft net, But how can you have 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.680 a safety net when we really destroyed I feel like 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.760 that opportunity for so many Americans. Yeah, you know, I 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.200 talked to people in all different levels of UM what 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.240 I would I guess refer to as you know, economic 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.960 and financial security and UM. You know, there's a woman 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.960 in the story who was a senior marketing manager at Airbnb. Like, 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.880 she made good money, she worked for a big company. UM, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:19.520 she's getting severance through UM July. UM. But the thing 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.960 is that she lives in the Bay Area and she had, 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.680 you know, had I think it was about forty five 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:30.040 thousand dollars in personal debt, and she can't afford to 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.320 stay in the Bay Area if she can't find another job, 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.760 and she's not sure that she's going to be able 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.520 to do that before her severance ends, um, which is 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.560 you know, she's like maybe a month to go before, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.680 you know, and she doesn't have a job, and so 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.800 her option is essentially she's forty years old and she's 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.040 originally from New Jersey, and so she said, I'm just 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:52.840 going to move home to New Jersey and live with 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.879 my mom. Um. And this is a woman who's you know, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.040 well advanced in her career, is doing well in all 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.919 other respects. But um, just the nature of life and 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.359 how expensive it is the middle class. I talked to 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:10.159 several economists to study this and study wealth disparity, and 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.040 one of the things, um um, Edward Wolfe at m 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.520 Y you mentioned that he's been setting this for so long. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.440 In the nineteen eighties, your average middle class family had 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.320 enough financial reserves and savings to get through two to 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.960 three months of just sort of normal consumption. If they 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.399 hold tight, they lose their jobs. And now it's a 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:35.200 little bit over a week nothing. Yeah, that's really remarkable. Well, uh, 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.719 it is. They must read for sure. It was one 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.159 of the most rehead when it published last week, and 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.280 certainly this full issue of the magazine is one to 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:48.800 really sit with and kind of take it in because 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.720 I think we all need that gut check and that 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.520 reality check about what the statistics, the data and the 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.640 personal stories. And you pointed that out, Carroll, really show. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:58.800 But I also think of the conversation we have with 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.240 Dr galayap right about all of this so interconnected, and 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.159 we've got to if we're going to solve some of 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.920 these problems, folks, we have to look at all of it, education, housing, wages, 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.720 so much so our thanks to Claire Saideth check out 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:12.800 that story in the magazine. Of course, I think so always. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.080 To Bloomberg Business Week editor Joe Webber, you're listening to 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.119 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.760 Bloomberg Radio. All right, you are listening to Bloomberg Business Week. 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.639 It is Monday. I'm Carol Masser along with my co 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:33.760 host Jason Kelly. So, Jason, it is so true. My 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.560 family is another description of it too at her at home, 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.240 but we'll talk about that later. Um, Jason, let's not forget. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.440 We've got a FED meeting this Wednesday, so it's gonna 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.320 be very interesting. If you think about Friday's jobs report, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.679 I'm so curious what the Fed has to say in 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.720 today's Business Week economics. UM. So delighted to have back 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.720 with us Stephen Skanky. He's chief economic advisor at keel Point. 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:59.159 Former US Treasury uh UM US former sorry, former U 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.560 S Treasury and White House National Security Council staff member. 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.400 It's terrible when I can't even read my own notes. 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.080 Based in Washington, d C. He's on the phone in 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.000 the nation's capital. Um, Steven, so great to have you 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.919 back with us. UM. So much going on as well, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:21.119 and I do wonder, first of all, how is your world? Well, thanks, Carol. 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.960 Always great to be with you and Jason. Our our 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:29.040 world is increasingly complicated, just because there's so much going 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.240 on all the time. But I'd say generally, well, we 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.880 feel good about what we're seeing and about how markets 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.240 are responding. Some of it is is a little bit 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.919 hard to fathom when markets are up on days that 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:45.639 we have negative news, but clearly they've they've learned to 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.600 look forward to what's coming and not what's in the 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:54.199 rear view mirror. Yeah, I mean, it is sort of 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.040 remarkable to to see this and to continue to try 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:02.679 and synthesize sort of well street main street data, market 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.840 sentiment and all that. So, Stephen, if you're sitting at 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.199 the FED, you know, sitting around that virgin at that 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.560 zoom meeting with which I assume is how they're doing everything, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.159 like we all are um with j Pollack, what's the 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.320 tone of the meeting? What are you looking at more 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.879 acutely or more specifically, and and how does the conversation go. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.960 They certainly have to be happy with how things are 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:34.720 developing and how what they've done already, which was proactive, preemptive, 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.080 uh and done very effectively. They've got to be very 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.920 satisfied with that, notwithstanding the other things that are going 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.200 on in the economy and public health. But they've really 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.720 done their part, and they've done it well. Uh So, 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.159 so as they see where they've they've made sure that 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:59.600 there's enough liquidity, they've backstopped critical credit markets, they've done 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.399 what they can on easy monetary policy and buying longer 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.080 term asset, and so now let's to figure out where 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.239 the fine tuning has to happen. You know, so far 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:14.240