1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. This is 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: into the vault for an older episode of the show. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: This one was part one of our series on the Minotaur, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: originally published October six. Every nine years, nine men come 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: into the house so that I can free them from 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: all evil. I hear their footsteps or their voices far 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: away in the galleries of stone, and I run joyously 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: to find them. The ceremony lasts but a few minutes. 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: One after another, they fall, without my ever having to 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: bloody my hands. Where they fall, they remain, and their 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: bodies helped distinguish one gallery from the others. I do 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: not know how many there have been, but I do 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: know that one of them predicted as he died that 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: someday my redeemer would come. Since then, there has been 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: no pain for me in solitude, because I know that 17 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: my Redeemer lives, and in the end he will rise 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: and stand above the dust. If my ear could hear 19 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: every sound in the world, I would hear his footsteps. 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: I hope he takes me to a place with fewer 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: galleries and fewer doors. What will my Redeemer be like 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: I wonder will he be bull or man? Could he 23 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: possibly be a bull with the face of a man? 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: Or will he be like me? Welcome to Stuff to 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind? Production of my Heart Radio album Hey 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: you Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 27 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's been 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: a long time coming. We finally enter a labyrinth of 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,919 Speaker 1: the Minotaur. That's right. We're gonna try and leave string 30 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: behind us as we go through these episodes so that 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: you can find your way back out again. But we 32 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: figured this would be a perfect journey to take during 33 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: October when we frequently engage on Halloween themed episodes. Now, 34 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: that cold opening I want to point out was from 35 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: the just fabulous short story The House of Hysterian by 36 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: Johey Luis Borges. This one is translated by Andrew Hurley 37 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: and I got this out of the Book of Collected Fictions, 38 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: which is put out by Penguin. The Minotaur is kind 39 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: of the perfect monster. I think the Minotaur has very 40 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: often been done injustice by by films and TV shows, 41 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: and one of the few exceptions I can think of 42 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: is Jim Hinson's storyteller, where that minotaur I think has 43 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: has just the right balance of of pain and terror 44 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: and anguish and and and uh and menace uh and 45 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: and I like that. You you don't often get a 46 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: very full look at the minotaur in that story. Yeah, 47 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: they do. The Hintston team does a fabulous job presenting 48 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: just the physicality of the minotaur. But then also the 49 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: minotaur is written and performed in such a way that 50 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: that he is this true hybrid. You know, he's not 51 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: just beast, but he is also uh human as well. 52 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's this juxtaposition in his being. Uh. He 53 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: stands across this threshold because we we we find him 54 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: both both terrifying and tragic. You know, we fear the 55 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: minotaur even as we empathize with it um you know, 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: and and even as just an adversary in the myth 57 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: it can it is supposed to combine brute strength and savagery, 58 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: but also with this cunning, predatory nature. That story by 59 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: Jorge Luis Borgees is quite good because it captures the 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: pity and the pathos that we should feel for him, 61 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: but it does it in an ironic way. It's like 62 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: that you feel pity for the minotaur because he's deluded, 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: like he he has a very his vision of his 64 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: role in in the culture is very confused, like he believes. 65 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: At one point, he says, he gets out of his 66 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: labyrinth and he wanders around in the streets, and he 67 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: says the people are afraid of him, but he believes 68 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: it's because they recognize his royal blood and they're like, oh, 69 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, here's the you know, here's the powerful descendant 70 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: of the queen. We must defer. But of course, the 71 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: the implication once you get to the end of the 72 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: story and realize that it's about the minotaur, is that 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: I guess they were looking at his horns. Yes, yeah, 74 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: this is as as perfect a short story as as 75 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: I can think of, and it is about really about 76 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: the perfect monster. And Borhes of course totally this was this. 77 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: I mean, Borhes was was obsessed by a by labyrinths 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: and and the like, so that this is the perfect 79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: myth for him to consider. And indeed the labyrinth is 80 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: essential to understanding the minotaur. If you take the minotaur 81 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth, as so many works of fiction 82 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: and films and games do, and all you have is 83 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: like a pretty cool beast man, but just a beast man. 84 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: For for the myths to work, for the monster to 85 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: have its true terror, and and and all of these 86 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: other emotions were attributing to it, he has to reside 87 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: within this maze, within this artificial habitat that is seemingly 88 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: designed to confuse us. Yeah, in a way, I think 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: it's almost a mistake to have made the minotaur into 90 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: um less of a less of a unique sort of 91 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: proper noun type monster, and more into a species of 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: monster that you might encounter in Dungeons and Dragons or 93 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: something like that, because it really does it takes him 94 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: out of his proper context, right right, and and and 95 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: we'll come back to Dungeons and Dragons in a bit, 96 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: because I think there are cases where it can be 97 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: it has been some correction applied, But for the most part, Yeah, 98 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: you you take me, you make the minotaur into just 99 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: a species, and you mostly just have a beast man. Uh. 100 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: The setting is key, and in fact is as Borges 101 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: pointed out in another work, The Book of Imaginary Beings. 102 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: This is also from translation by Hurley quote. Indeed, the 103 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: image of the labyrinth and the image of the minotaur 104 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: seemed to go together. It is fitting that at the 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: center of a monstrous house there should live a monstrous inhabitant. 106 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: I agree, And I think another uniting theme here is confusion, 107 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: because what is the thing that makes the hybrid scary. 108 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: It's that it is a perversion. It is a confusion 109 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: of nature and what makes the labyrinth scary? Uh, this 110 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: is the I guess, the more classic maze understanding of 111 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: the labyrinth rather than the unidirectional labyrinth. We can get 112 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: into those distinctions in a bit. But the terror there 113 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: is also a confusion. It's a um it's you know, 114 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: having the stability city of nature and of direction, uh 115 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: taken out from under you. You are unmoored when dealing 116 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: with the minotaur because you don't know which way is which, 117 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: and you don't know what kind of beasts this is. Yeah, 118 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: and and in and in many ways, this basic idea 119 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: reverberates through a lot of our horror fiction. I mean, 120 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: a haunted house has a ghost in it, you know, 121 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: like that, That's that's how it works. So Leatherface lives 122 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: in the crazy chainsaw house, you know, and uh uh, 123 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: Leatherface takes Manhattan would not work right? Uh? You know, 124 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: Freddie Krueger occupies the realm of dreams, and even even 125 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: Jason is a is a creature of like of Crystal Lake, right, 126 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: He's a creature of the woods, of this environment that 127 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: is farig into the various teenagers and what have you 128 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: that have that are visiting it. I guess that is 129 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: one reason Jason Takes Manhattan is so funny, is because 130 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever out of his context. 131 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: And you actually see that in the tone of the 132 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: movie because in Jason Takes Manhattan when he's walking around 133 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: times where the movie at that point transitions to become 134 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: a full comedy, like on purpose comedy with jokes where 135 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: he just lifts his mask up at the punks and 136 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: scares them, you know, and everybody's now and the kids 137 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: are saying, like there's a maniac chasing us, and the 138 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: waitress at the diners like welcomed into York. You know, 139 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: I never thought of this before, but I'm now assuming 140 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: that movie came out after Crocodile Dundee, right, probably, Oh yeah, 141 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: it's Crocodile Dundee, but he's Jason. Yeah, and yeah, of 142 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: course that's another fish out of water story. But the 143 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: minotaur is very much a fish in its own waters, 144 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: waters that are foreign and dark and mysterious to us. 145 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: And uh and I and I feel like like this 146 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: is a perfect metaphor for so many fears and anxieties 147 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: in life. And that's another huge reason that the Minotar 148 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: myth and things that are like the Minetar myth resonates 149 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: so strongly, the idea of a realm that we're uncertain 150 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: about and the things that might be in there that 151 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: can harm us. I don't think we've said it so far, 152 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: but we should acknowledge this is gonna be a two 153 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: part series because we've wanted to do the Minotaur for years. 154 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why it took us so long to 155 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: get around to it, but we're gonna have two episodes 156 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: worth of Minotaur for you. And I think maybe at 157 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: first here we should just tell the myth, right, yeah, yeah, 158 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: we should. We should just remind everybody what the story is, 159 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: who the major players are here, and and what happens 160 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: now before we we get going. I do want to 161 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: to drive home, of course, that the minuetar emergence from 162 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: Greek myth, but as always, myths are amorphous they change 163 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: over time with different tellings, with different peoples and cultures, 164 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: stories merged together, stories split apart, stories are finally recorded 165 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: and then re recorded and translated, etcetera real history, magical thinking, 166 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: and many other factors come into the creation of a myth, 167 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: and the Minotaur is no exception. That's right. And this 168 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: is one thing we talked about when we when we 169 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: did the Medusa episodes earlier this year that I find 170 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: often today, like kids are really insistent on knowing what 171 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: cannon is, like what is what is technically canon and 172 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: what is not cannon. I think that that's a product 173 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: of modern myth making, like star wars and stuff, where 174 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: you've got ideas of intellectual property and like one artist 175 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: or owner's control over what technically really happens in this 176 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: mythical universe. That's not how ancient myths are ancient myths 177 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: or you know, there's a million different versions of them, 178 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: especially with like you know, the ones where we have 179 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: a lot of different sources over hundreds of years, like 180 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: the Greek myths. You know, you've got sources they go 181 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: back to a couple of centuries b c. And you've 182 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: got sources going way up into some of our fullest 183 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: sources are from the earliest centuries c. And so you 184 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: end up with tons of different variations and there's no 185 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: way to pick one and say, oh, this is the 186 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: real version of the myth. Yeah. And I feel like 187 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: it would be healthier for us if we approached things 188 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: like Star Wars in that way. I've thought about this 189 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: a little bit because I've been thinking way too much 190 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: about Star Wars this year. Uh. But yeah, I feel 191 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: like the Clone Wars, for instance, this is uh, you know, 192 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: this is a mythic event. Uh. And You're going to 193 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: have various tellings and retellings of it, and there will 194 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: continue to be tellings and retellings of it, and and 195 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: and it's and the thing itself is going to ultimately 196 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: be shapeless and unformed at the center. The fixed canon 197 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: is a product of a society that operates largely on 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: the basis of fixed recorded media and has a like 199 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: capitalist conception of intellectual property. I think those things are 200 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: just death to mythology. You gotta let it breathe. Yeah. 201 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: And and certainly you see even with with with films 202 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: and whatnot, you see that energy there in the in 203 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: the fandom and people that follow. You know, we we 204 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: all want to have our own interpretations of what happened, 205 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: alternate interpretations. There's this yearning for for for for these interpretations, 206 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: for fan fictions, for additional fleshings out of mysteries, And 207 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: I think I think that's basically the same sort of 208 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: energy that you would see go into the deviation and 209 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: the and the recreation and of myths over time. Now, 210 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: having said all that, I guess we should also try 211 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: to identify, though, what are the main sources we would 212 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: be looking at for the closest thing to a canonical 213 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: version of the myth. I guess the closest thing to 214 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: canonical would be the version of the myth that most 215 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: people know right, And a lot of a lot of 216 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: the modern understanding of of the menatur story, like as 217 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: without many other myths, comes down down to all its metamorphosis. Uh. 218 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: And so that was one of the key areas we 219 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: turned to here. As always, I I pick up Carol 220 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: Rose's uh books of Monsters and Fairies, because she she 221 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: did such a fabulous job, uh, you know, basically, uh, 222 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, nailing down that the essential myths, uh, that 223 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But certainly what we're gonna about to 224 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: roll out. Here is not the It is not the cannon, 225 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: but it is maybe as close to the cannon as 226 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: we can sort of agree on for the purposes of 227 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: moving forward. Yeah, I just wanted to mention another major 228 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: source on this I think would be pseudo Apollodorus. The 229 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: I think this is probably now leave to be like 230 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: a first or second century CE work, but you know, 231 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: it's the Biblioteca. It's tells a lot of classic Greek 232 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: and Roman myths, and it was traditionally attributed to an 233 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: author named a Polydorus. Now that authorship is questioned, so 234 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: it's largely known as pseudo Apolodorus. Now ask your doctors 235 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: about pseudo Apolodorus. Okay, Well, what's the story? Okay, alright, 236 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: So so here we go on the isle of Crete. 237 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: There is a king who, like most kings, desires above 238 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: all else to ensure and extend his reign. And as 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: he lives in a world ruled by the gods, and 240 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 1: is himself not entirely without divine blood, he seeks their support. Now, 241 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: given the creed is surrounded on all sides by the sea, 242 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: it makes sense to reach out to Poseidon. Getting into 243 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: bad company there. Yeah, but you know, kings, they're they're vain, uh, 244 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: and they see themselves as powerful enough to stand beside 245 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: such deities. So he asked the sea god to deliver 246 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: up a sign of his divine to rule, as well 247 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: as a proper beast of sacrifice. And so the god 248 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: does just this. He delivers up this white bull from 249 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: the surf. It comes, comes comes out. It's just why 250 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: it is the frothing sea foam itself. And this beast 251 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: comes to be known as the Cretan Bull. I think 252 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: even this aspect of the myth is very interesting because 253 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: what he does is King Minos asks Poseidon to send 254 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: him a bull that he can then turn around and 255 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: sacrifice to Poseidon. So he wouldn't even really be giving 256 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: of himself. He'd just be sort of returning the favor 257 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: in a way. Well, I guess it does kind of 258 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: remind me of like the the gesture of say you 259 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: you visit somebody's house for dinner, and you bring a 260 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: bottle of wine, and then the expectation is kind of 261 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: like that bottle of wine will then be opened and 262 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: shared with the guests. Okay, I can see that the 263 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: analogy I was thinking of was checking the ball in 264 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: a game of basketball where you've only got one goal. 265 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: Check the ball like the ball, you know, like when 266 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: you you never played half court basketball where you get 267 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to the when possession changes you, you check the ball, 268 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: you throw it to the other team, you say check, 269 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: and then they throw the ball back to you. It 270 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: is a sign that possession has changed. Okay, I'll take 271 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: your word for it. Okay, So the Cretan Bowl is fabulous, 272 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: is beautiful, and then then factors into some other myths 273 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: as well. But but so splendid is this beast, and 274 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: so self interested is King Minos that he decides to 275 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: keep this trophy for himself and instead to offer up 276 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: the blood sacrifice of immortal bowl so that Poseidon, you know, 277 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: will still be pleased. Uh So, it's like you bring 278 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: a really nice bottle of wine to dinner and the 279 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: host is like, oh thanks, and then gets out the 280 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: two buck chuck exactly. Yeah. But, as we've touched on before, 281 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: Poseidon is certainly nobody to trifle with um, even if 282 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: you do have a little bit of of royal blood 283 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: of Zeus in your system, as is uh supposed to 284 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: be the case with Minos. Okay, Well, we know from 285 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: experience ends that Poseidon does not deal well with slides. 286 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: In fact, Poseidon does not even usually treat people well 287 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: if they've done nothing to him. So he is he's 288 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: bad news. How is he going to react to this? 289 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: Well horribly, But by comparing preparing it to other things, 290 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: Poseidon is done. I mean he he was almost playing 291 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: a little softball here, as we'll see, but that still 292 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: he definitely has the last laugh. So here's what Poseidon did. 293 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: He bewitched Ninos, his wife Pacific, causing her to fall 294 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: in love with the Cretan bull. So she ends up 295 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: belonging to be one with this beast, and she convinces 296 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: the master artificer Daedalus, who was then residing in Crete, 297 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: to craft for her this mechanical bovine likeness that wouldn't 298 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: enable her to then mate with the bull. Yes, so Poseidon, 299 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: by which is pacifically says, you're gonna fall in love 300 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: with this bull? She does. She gets Deadalus to build 301 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: her a robot bull so she can get inside it 302 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: and have sex with the white bull bowl. Yes, and 303 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: this results in a monstrous pregnancy, producing a monstrous hybrid 304 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: part human part bull. This is the Bull of Minos 305 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: or the minotaur, also known as a stereon yes um. 306 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: And certainly that that gets back to the title of 307 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: that Bores story the House of Asteria. Now, the exact 308 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: form of the minotaur was not always well to find, uh. 309 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: The the A. S. Klein translation of The Metamorphosis describes 310 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: a quote strange hybrid creature, a twin form of bull 311 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: and man, and Bores is actually in that passage that 312 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: I read, he's alluding to this a little bit, uh, 313 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: the idea that sometimes there is this idea that maybe 314 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: the minotaur is more like the face of a man 315 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: on the body of a bull rather than the reverse. 316 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: So now we have the minotaur, and it's easy to 317 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: sort of overlook how strange this creature is and exactly 318 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: like what it's mixed lineage means, because this is a 319 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: monster of two worlds yet none. It's the It's a 320 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: product of Minos's blast from me Poseidon's wrath, specifics lust. 321 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: It was an unnatural being, and yet it also was sacred. 322 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: Minos could not simply just kill it and swatter it 323 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: or cast it out back into the sea. You know 324 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: where it's It's it's father, the bull came from. So 325 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: instead he chooses to hide it away, and luckily he 326 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: had in his employ just the right man to design 327 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: a most elegant hiding place. I want to read here 328 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: from the Metamorphoses, the Garthen Dryden translation that talks about 329 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: this part. So of it writes, when Minos, willing to 330 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: conceal the shame that sprung from the reports of tattling fame, 331 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: resolves a dark enclosure to provide, and far from sight, 332 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: the two formed creature hide. Great. Dadalus of Athens was 333 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: the man that made the draft and formed the wondrous plan, 334 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: where rooms within themselves encircled, lie with various windings to 335 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: deceive the eye. As offt meanders, wanton current plays when 336 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: through the Phrygian fields, it loosely strays backward and forward rolls, 337 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: the dimpled tide, seeming at once two different ways to 338 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: glide when circling streams their former banks survey and waters 339 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: past succeeding waters sea now floating to the sea, with 340 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: downward course now pointing upward to its ancient source. Such 341 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: was the work, so intricate, the place that scarce the 342 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: workman all its turns could trace. And Dadalus was puzzled 343 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: how to find the secret ways of what himself designed 344 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: that wonderful. Oh yeah, So he's describing this thing that's 345 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: these galleries, this place that's often described as a maze 346 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: or a labyrinth, as as being as confusing as waters 347 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: that churned back and forth without apparent rhyme or reason. Yeah, 348 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: I love this. So he makes some comparisons to the 349 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: natural world here. But but it is the ultimate unnatural 350 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: environment to house the ultimate unnatural creature. But maybe I 351 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: should read the next two lines because that sets up 352 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: what we're getting into now, these private walls the minotaur 353 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: include who twice was glutted with Athenian blood. That's not 354 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: a good rhyme, is it. I guess that reflects how 355 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: English pronunciation has changed over time. This is a very 356 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: old translation. I think it's ultimately perfect too, that that 357 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: Minos has this constructed, you know, because ultimately, again, think 358 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: of the of the minotaur as a creature representing the 359 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: shaming of Minos. You know, it is the revenge of 360 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: of Poseidon. But a king doesn't really suffer shame like 361 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: you or I. His awfulness is common knowledge, right, he 362 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: he can't just change the central vileness upon which everything spends. 363 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: But he can alter the surrounding reality. He can foster confusion, misinformation. 364 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: He can care apart your faith in the ordered structure 365 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: of cosmos, of society, of law or order. In short, 366 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: a king builds a maze, or certainly he pays a 367 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: great inventor who is, by the way, in the case 368 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: of datal Ists, fleeing his own shame to build it 369 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,959 Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, and so it's kind of hard to 370 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: understand exactly what it means that Dadalust, like the great craftsman, 371 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: builds this maze. The other things we know of Dadalust 372 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: for creating are, for example, the wings that he uses 373 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: ultimately to escape the realm of King Minos or Minos. 374 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: I know, we keep saying it both ways, and we're 375 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: probably just gonna keep saying it both ways. I hope 376 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: you're all right with that. But yeah, he makes the 377 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: wings of the wax and the feathers that he and 378 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: Icarus used to to escape the island that doesn't go 379 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: so well for for Icarus. We all know that story. 380 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: But he, you know, and he's also renowned to be, 381 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: you know, the great master craftsman who makes statues that 382 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: are so lifelike. It seems as if they will, they 383 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: will become quickened and walk away. But here he has 384 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: made this, this sort of like palace of Confusion, which 385 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: is ultimately some combination of prison and weapon, and it 386 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: is his ultimate creation, and as as Ovid points out, 387 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: a creation so well designed that Datalus himself barely escapes it. Uh. 388 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: And that of course plays more into the myth of Icrius. 389 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: But you're right, Yes, the maze of the King becomes 390 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: not only a defensive ploy but a weapon. And indeed, 391 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: the Minoan maze came to feature into Minos's destructive policies. 392 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: He required tributes sent each year by other lands, including Athens, 393 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: and these individuals were thrown into the labyrinth, where they 394 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: were then hunted through the twisted halls amid the echoing screams, 395 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: until they too confronted the minotaur and were torn to 396 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: bloody shreds and and presumably consumed as well. Yes, so 397 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: they demand tribute from Athens or is it just from 398 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: Athens or is it from other city states as well? 399 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: I believe other city states as well. But of course 400 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: this is the Athens is most central to the telling 401 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: of the myth, right because ultimately the hero of the 402 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: story Theseus will come from Athens. But from Athens every 403 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: nine years they demanded fourteen young people of sacrifice, seven 404 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: maidens and seven young men, and so they would be 405 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: taken away by ship to to the palace of of Minos, 406 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: and then they would be sent into the labyrinth to 407 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: meet their fate as a human sacrifice to the monster. 408 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: Oh and of course the minutar would eat them. I 409 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: don't know if we mentioned that part. The minotaur would 410 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: devour their flesh. Yum, yum. So inter Theseius. Thetheus is 411 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: the fated one, the one, the fated slayer of the monster. Um. 412 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: And of course there's more to his story as well. 413 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: But basically what happens is he takes the place of 414 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: a tribute that is being sent to Crete. Right, He's 415 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: like one of these guys who would be sacrificed. Now 416 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: I'll go instead because I know what I can do. 417 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: I can kill that minotaur. Right. And of course he 418 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: is uh, you know, he's a handsome prince. So what 419 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: does he do he you know, he impresses people with 420 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: his charisma. He makes an ally in Ariadne, the daughter 421 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: of King Minos. Right, it's often said that she falls 422 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: in love with him, though I don't know if that's 423 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: in every telling. So for some reason they end up allied. Yes, 424 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: and uh and what does she do? Well? She she 425 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: gives them privileged information. She gives him a ball of 426 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: string to unwind behind him as he travels through the labyrinth, 427 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: and she tells him the various twist and turns that 428 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: will lead him not out of the labyrinth, because that's 429 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: what the string is for, but to the heart of 430 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: the labyrinth, to the place where the minotaur can be found. Uh. 431 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: In other words, turned the hunted into the hunter instead 432 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: of being in there just kind of lost and hunted 433 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: by the minotaur. He'll know how to get straight to 434 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: the monster and kill it. And that's exactly what happens. 435 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: He follows her instructions, he slays the minotaur and then 436 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,239 Speaker 1: follows the string back to the surface. He ends up 437 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: eloping with the daughter of King Minos, but then ultimately 438 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: abandons her, just totally maroons her on an island. Yes, 439 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: and and this is That's another great thing about the 440 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: the Jim Hinson Storyteller episode is that it it definitely 441 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: doesn't just play theseus up. Is this perfect monster killer hero, 442 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: but also shows this, I think, to at least to 443 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: modern interpretations and modern viewers, this unsavory nature of the hero. 444 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking about how the story of 445 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: Theseus and the Minotaur has actually so much in common 446 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: with the story of Perseus and Medusa, especially in the 447 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: broad strokes and in the way modern audiences would react 448 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: to it. And you have to imagine, are we reacting 449 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: to the story with different values in a in a 450 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: different way than ancient Greek audiences would have reacted to it. 451 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: But you know, some of the broad contours that are 452 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: the same are starts with Poseidon doing something cruel because 453 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: he's awful, and this cruelty of Poseidon results in the 454 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: creation of a monster. The monster ends up living in 455 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: some kind of secluded underworld where it kills people, but 456 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: only really when they come to its domain. There is 457 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: a young Hero, the son of a king of Sorts. 458 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: Now in Perseus is actually the son of Zeus. Theseus 459 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: is the son of a Gius, the king of Athens, 460 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: but either way the son of a king, the son 461 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: of a king. Hero sets out to kill the monster. 462 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: He receives tools and strategies to help him from other people. 463 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: Perseus gets helped from Athena and Hermi is giving him 464 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: tools and advice that will help him kill Medusa. Theseus 465 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: gets tools and advice from Ariadney and Dadalus that will 466 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: help him kill the monster. The young hero succeeds in 467 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: killing the monster, then turns out, at least on a 468 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: critical reading, to be an absolute jerk. Remember Perseus going 469 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: around just showing the head of Medusa at a random people. 470 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then like if someone ticks him off, 471 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: he'll just turn him to stone with it. You know. 472 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: He's just kind of rampaging through the aisles, surrounding aisles 473 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: with that thing. Yeah. And Theseus of course abandons Ariadne 474 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: on the on the island, and then in the end, 475 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: at least as a modern critical reader, for some reason, 476 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: I in both stories end up feeling more sympathy for 477 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: the monster. The monster is kind of pitiable. Yeah, there 478 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: is this sense in some of the tellings that that 479 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: the and and this is also reflected in Borges retelling 480 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: that the monster doesn't even necessarily put up much of 481 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: a fight, or get to put up much of a fight. 482 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: He is just dispatched by our hero here because you 483 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: have to again, I think you have to think of 484 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: the minotaur not only is an occupant of the maze, 485 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: but a part of the maze, a function of the maze, 486 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: like the killing center of the maze. And via this 487 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: privileged information that he gets Theseus makes himself the center 488 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: of the maze, makes himself the killing function of the 489 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: Manoan maze. Oh and by the way, I also think 490 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: it's fitting that the the that this whole episode ends 491 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: up with with this tragic turn of events for Minos 492 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: his daughter as well, which also feels a part, uh 493 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: somehow of Poseidon's grand design. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 494 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: And there's more tragedy too, because when um, when Theseus 495 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: is returning home to Athens, his father a Gus gets 496 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: confused about what's happening is the way the boat is 497 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: returning and ends up killing himself throwing himself into the sea. Uh. 498 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: And then that's how we get the name of the 499 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: g and C. Yeah. So there's so many interesting themes 500 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: in this story that that we can get into over 501 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: the next couple of episodes. It deals with, of course, 502 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: this this hybrid bull human monster. Of course, it deals 503 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: with human sacrifice, it deals it deals with mazes, and labyrinths. Uh, 504 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot of rich territory here, yes, and and 505 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: certainly in a one angle on it too. Is is 506 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: going to be just questions of the the Noan civilization 507 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: of Crete and the Greek perceptions of that civilization. But 508 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: I wanna, I want to stress that the episode following 509 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: this one will get more into that than this episode. 510 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: So just just stay tuned if you have a lot 511 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: of of of of of nagging questions about that aspect 512 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: of the myth. Alright, on that note, we're going to 513 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but when we come back, we 514 00:28:53,720 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: will venture into hell. Alright, we're back. So I want 515 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: to talk a bit about how the figure of the 516 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: minotaur developed after the Greco Roman world. And one example 517 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: that I've come across recently, because I think we've talked 518 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: about this on the show, is that this year Rachel 519 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: and I have been rereading The Divine Comedy, which has 520 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: been surprisingly fun. I know, like to to modern readers 521 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: that can seem kind of weird. Oh really, you want 522 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: to get into all this stuff about you know, medieval 523 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: Catholic theology and politics, But if you have an addition 524 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: that's got really good notes filling you in on the 525 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: historical context is actually a really fun and interesting and 526 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: funny read. We've been reading from several translations. We used 527 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: the Pinske translation of the Inferno. Uh, We've been using 528 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: the Gene Hollander translation of the Purgatorio and the Paradiso, 529 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: but using the notes by John Chiardi, and those notes 530 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: Charity's notes are fantastic. But so the minotaur does appear 531 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: in the Divine Comedy in Hell, of course, and this 532 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: is in Canto twelve, when Dante and his guyed the 533 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: the Latin poet Virgil, are descending into the Seventh Circle 534 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: of Hell. So, of course Virgil is guiding Dante through 535 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: the different realms of the afterlife to sort of educate 536 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: him on what awaits after death and get him to 537 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: repent and turn more fully to God. And so they're 538 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: descending through Hell, and Dante is witnessing all the horrors 539 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: of Hell, and they're going down into the seventh Circle, 540 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: which is reserved for people whose nature is violence. And 541 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: they enter the circle by descending a fallen rock wall. 542 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: And here I just want to read from the RT translation, 543 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: such was the passage down the steep and there at 544 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: the very top at the edge of the broken cleft 545 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: lay spread the infamy of crete, the air of beast reality, 546 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: and the lecherous queen who hid in a wooden cow, 547 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: and when he saw us, he gnawed his own flesh 548 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: in a fit of spleen, And my master mocked, how 549 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: you do pump your breath? Do you think perhaps it 550 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: is the Duke of Athens who, in the world above 551 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: served up your death. Off with you, monster, This one 552 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: does not come instructed by your sister, but of himself 553 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: to observe your punishment in the Lost Kingdom. As a 554 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: bull that breaks its chains just when the knife has 555 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: struck its deathblow, cannot stand nor run, but leaps from 556 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: side to side with its last life. So danced to 557 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: the minotaur, and my shrewd guide cried out, run now 558 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: while he is blind with rage into the past, quick 559 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: and get over the side. This is great. And one 560 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: of the things I love about about like this, this 561 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: particular passage from Inferno, is that it almost is like 562 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: a Looney Tunes cartoon. Yes, you know, yeah, I mean 563 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the Inferno is that way. 564 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: It's like they run into a monster or a figure, 565 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, an evil figure or something. Uh, there's a 566 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: great part where they come up to plute Us, who's 567 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: clucking at them, and uh, you know there are parts 568 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: where uh, the beasts menacing them in untranslatable languages of Hell, 569 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: you know, the tongue of the Inferno, Poppy, Satan, Aleppe 570 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: and all that great stuff. But uh, but yeah, and 571 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: then and then Virgil will often like mock them, or 572 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: they'll kind of scramble away. And so what Virgil does 573 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: is he gets the minotaur really mad, and he's like 574 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: stomping and huffing like a bull, I guess, you know, 575 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: the like the Loony Tunes bull actually scratching and the 576 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: ground and snorting. And then they scramble over the rocks 577 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: and get away. But I like the implication of them 578 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: scrambling away. This is never fully made clear in the 579 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: Divine Comedy, but it makes me wonder, like, was there 580 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: a possibility that Virgil and Dante could be killed while 581 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: in Hell and would not get to complete the tour 582 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: of the afterlife. I don't know, Um, it's certainly implied. 583 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: You know, there is this sense of danger at times 584 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: where where virgils having to urge him on, and and 585 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: is there is a protector of sorts, so you know, 586 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: in addition to guide uh So, yeah, I always got 587 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: the sense that that that that was a possibility. And 588 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: oh and by the way, um, I was always partial 589 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: to the robert Ian Durling translations of of Inferno and 590 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: U and Purgatory uh as. I recall when I was 591 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: reading these they had not yet come out with up 592 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: or they had not yet published a translation of his 593 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: All of Paradise. But that is out now as well, 594 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: and has been for for years. Oh. Interesting, I don't 595 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: know anything about that translation. I'll have to look into it. 596 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm almost without doing it on purpose, 597 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: becoming a sort of Dante translation nerd this year, just 598 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: because we've been we've been looking at so many different ones. 599 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: I don't remember the details on that translation so much, 600 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: but but when I um, when I studied uh Dante 601 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: a little bit in college, they those were the additions 602 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: that our our teacher recommended. So that's the one we got, 603 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: and I found it quite I think. Earlier, without the 604 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, the aid of a class environment, I had 605 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: tried reading some other translation, like a Penguin translation, and 606 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: I didn't get as much out of it. But I 607 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: really liked these these additions. One thing I will say, 608 00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: if you want to make a go of reading The 609 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: Divine Comedy, I think it is absolutely crucial to seek 610 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: out one that has really good notes that absolutely it 611 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: helps explain everything because these books like this is this 612 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: is medieval epic poetry that is full of contemporary political 613 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: and historical and you know, theological mythological references. It's just 614 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,959 Speaker 1: crammed with culture and cultural references that you're not gonna 615 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: understand unless you have some background. But if you do 616 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: get the background, it can become very like interesting and 617 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: funny watching like how you know again, like medieval Florentine 618 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: politics are projected into the afterlife. Oh yeah, there's a 619 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: lot of Dante settling old scores and picking at his 620 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: enemies and also like talking about friends who you know, 621 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: tragic things happen to and sort in remembering them like 622 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's a really beautiful work and it 623 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: covers it does. It covers a lot of territory. Once 624 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: you even emerge from just the inferno, you'll feel like 625 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: you've had a crash course in in in the politics 626 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: and uh and uh and and religious and just cultural 627 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: world of the time. Totally. Now, I wanted to talk 628 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: about a couple of things about this passage that I 629 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: thought were interesting. One of them is, uh, why is 630 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: this where the minotaur is in Hell in the seventh circle? 631 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: I mean, one part is clear, because this is the 632 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: circle of violence, right, One part is clear, it's the 633 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: violence against others. You know, the minotaur kills and eats people. 634 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: But I think there's like a threefold thing going on here, 635 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: which is that the minotaur is depicted as a violent 636 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: against others by killing and eating them, violent against himself 637 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: because it shows him gnawing his own flesh and anger, 638 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: and then finally that this is the kind of thing 639 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: that shows up a lot in the inferno. He is 640 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: violent against nature by way of his monstrous hybridity. The 641 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: fact that he's part human and part bull is a 642 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: form of violence. Now you could say that's not really 643 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: the minotaur's fault, but uh. In the in the medieval 644 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: Catholic theology that places people in Dante's Hell, a lot 645 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: of people are there for things that we would say 646 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: are not really their fault, right, right, But this is also, 647 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: interestingly one of the dozens i'd say, probably hundreds of 648 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: instances throughout the Divine Comedy of what I think would 649 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: be called syncretism in any other context. Of course, syncretism 650 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: is the blending or mixing of different religious or cultural traditions. Uh. 651 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: Dante is supposedly writing orthodox Catholic theology and fantasy form, 652 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,959 Speaker 1: but throughout the Divine Comedy he takes as real all 653 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: the gods and heroes and monsters of classical Greek and 654 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: Roman mythology, which would have been considered like Satanic paganism 655 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: in a way by by a lot of you know, 656 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: Christian thinkers. But it seems for Dante, Greco Roman mythology 657 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: is is just sort of rolled straight up into Christianity 658 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: as if they are the same thing and part of 659 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: the same tradition. So hell is full of figures from 660 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: Greek mythology, as if they actually existed and are real figures, 661 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, dealing with with the ramifications of of Christian 662 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: salvation and stuff. Yeah, it is a It is a 663 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: rich hell that Dante creates here, full of full of 664 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: all these mythological figures. Uh, these monsters, also demons and devils, 665 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: but also people he knew, people, he liked, people he hated, 666 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: reviled characters, from recent histories. Uh, yeah, they're all there. 667 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: I just find that so interesting if anybody out there 668 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: is a Dante scholar and wants to get in touch 669 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: with us about the uh syncretistic aspects, like what why 670 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: was it seen as totally acceptable to just essentially take 671 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: all of these classic Greco Roman myths as basically true, 672 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: except unfortunately Odysseus was not afforded Christian salvation. All right, well, 673 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: we could, We could obviously keep going on and on 674 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: about Dante, and we should, we should probably will definitely 675 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: come back to Dante again in the future, and maybe 676 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: we should do a proper episode about about Inferno as well. 677 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: But let's come back to the meat here. Let's come 678 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: back to the minute our. Okay, So maybe we should 679 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: talk about labyrinths and mazes. We alluded earlier to the 680 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: fact that these terms are sometimes used interchangeably, but sometimes 681 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: they're used to mean very distinct and different things. Yeah. 682 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: At times, there's this distinction between a branching assembly of 683 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: artificial paths and halls that are designed to confuse, and 684 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: in some cases these attributes are defined as a maze, 685 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: not a labyrinth. And then on the other hand, there's 686 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: the idea of this complex system that has but one 687 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: path through it. Uh. And this is sometimes described more 688 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: as a pure labyrinth. Uh. We need not get caught 689 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: up too much in the terminology here, because they are 690 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: used interchangeably today. But but this is this idea is 691 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: rather fascinating because you know, first and foremost, a labyrinth 692 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: or maze is generally an artificial environment um or at 693 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: least an artificial reworking of the natural environment in terms 694 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: of things like hedge mazes, hedge labyrinths, etcetera. But in 695 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: in there, in the purer sense of the word, a 696 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: labyrinth or made has no other purpose other than to 697 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: confuse the individual with a complex system or to seamlessly 698 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: guide them through it. So the sort of labyrinth one 699 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: encounters on stones and church courtyards, for instance, there's only 700 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: one way through, there's not You don't have to make 701 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: any decisions. You just follow the path and it will 702 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: lead you through a complex system and back out again. 703 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: It's essentially a mindfulness exercise. Yeah, these are Sometimes the 704 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: terminology used is unicursive versus multi cursive. So like, if 705 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: a labyrinth is the of the unicursive type, it means 706 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: there's only one path. It is very complicated, but you 707 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: can only basically go one direction unless you turn around 708 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: and go back the way you came from. The multi 709 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: cursive would be the ones where you have options about 710 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: which way to turn and can reach dead ends. Yeah. 711 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: In one you you lose your way, and the other 712 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: one you sort of lose your your sense of self. Yeah, 713 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: and and and so the unicursive labyrinth, it's interesting to 714 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: think how that, like, you know, it could be thought 715 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: of as having metaphorical meanings, Like it's kind of fatalistic 716 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: in a way, there's only one way you can go. 717 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: It's also sort of an an act of submission in 718 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: a way, you're submitting to the designer of the labyrinth 719 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: and saying like, I will just go the only way 720 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: there is to go. Yeah. And what I find interesting 721 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: is that ultimately both of these interpretations work well with 722 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: the minotaur myth. I mean, we we tend to go 723 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: with the version of the Minoan maze or the labyrinth 724 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: that the minetar resides in as being a place of confusion, 725 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: and then the master of confusion is the minotaur that 726 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 1: lives there. But you know, I also like the idea 727 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: of the labyrinth as a thing that is complex, but 728 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: leads you down one path, and that one path, of course, 729 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: will take you to the mazes kill function the minotar. Yeah, 730 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: that's that's a different kind of terror. You can instead 731 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: of confusion, you can only go one way and you 732 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 1: know what lies that way, but you can't go back. 733 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: There's nowhere to go there. Yeah. You can either go 734 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: forward to death or not go at all. Yeah. And 735 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: again the data lists is the you know, the master 736 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: builder here, so you know, you can easily imagine him 737 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 1: creating this sort of structure that is about delivering people 738 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: under the minotaur. Which do you think Dadalus would have 739 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: been more likely to create? I mean, I think it's 740 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 1: often described explicitly as a maze, a multi cursive maze. 741 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: But if you have the option which is more Dadalus like, 742 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, if he's more egotistical, if he's more 743 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, obsessed with his own skill and all that, 744 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: he might want to be the the ultimate controller that 745 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: sets you on a unicursal labyrinth where you know you 746 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: have to go the way he tells you to go. Yeah, 747 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think, I like, I think I can 748 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: make a case for either way, but ultimately I see 749 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: the Maze of the Minotaur as being a place of multiple, 750 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: multiple branching paths and confusion. Now, I think one of 751 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: the things that you begin to see though, when you 752 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: read about labyrinths and ancient accounts of alleged labyrinths, aside 753 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,439 Speaker 1: from just how diverse the subject is, is that there's 754 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: often a description leveled at certain ancient complexes and uh 755 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: and and temples and structures like that, and over time 756 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: there's a transformation from a place that has another purpose 757 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: but it is also confusing into a place that was 758 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: clearly designed and built to confuse. And perhaps we kind 759 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: of observed the same sort of hyperbole when considering confusing 760 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: store layouts, you know, new cities and more, you know 761 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: where we think, oh man, they just they just made 762 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: this place to drive me crazy. Why is this place 763 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 1: constructed like this? Um is is like Walmart a maze, 764 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: whereas I Kea is a unicursal labyrinth. It's true, I 765 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: Kia does have that layout where you can you you 766 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: can cut directly through everything, but still they are very 767 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: much guiding your path. So I don't know. I don't 768 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: have much experience with Ikea. I went there once and 769 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: I remember it being more more like that there is 770 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: a minotar, they say, but it's called flingbow with an 771 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: ooml out probably. But coming back to what you were 772 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: saying about places with an original use being laid are 773 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: confused for a labyrinth, I think that that actually does 774 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: apply to some possible ruins in Egypt which um have 775 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: been interpreted by some archaeologists, or maybe not archaeologists, by 776 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: some thinkers throughout history as something that was supposed to 777 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: be a confusing maze or labyrinth, but in fact was 778 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: probably just some kind of like temple or burial complex 779 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: that has been you know, massively degraded in a structural 780 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: sense over time and appears confusing to people who are 781 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: unearthing and exploring it. Now, Yeah, this is the case 782 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: of the ancient Egyptian labyrinth, so it was often referred 783 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: I was reading about this in a book by William 784 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: Henry Matthews, A Mazes and uh in Labyrinths. This is 785 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: a siminal work on the subject, but he mentions just 786 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: the the evocative language of of using labyrinth quote a 787 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: structure which evoked so much wonder and admiration in ancient 788 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: times that can hardly fail to have roused the curiosity 789 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,080 Speaker 1: of later generations. And so when he's talking about the 790 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: the ancient ancient Egyptian labyrinth, this is interesting because this 791 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: is the the oldest structure or place that apparently has 792 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: been described in these terms, and it was described by 793 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: the likes of Herodotus Um. Now these these whatever this 794 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: exactly was. It did not survive destruction during Roman times. Uh. 795 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: And it seems though that it was some sort of 796 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: temple structure or some sort of temple compound. It definitely 797 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,479 Speaker 1: was not created just to confuse foreigners, much like um, 798 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: foreign airports that you travel to were not designed just 799 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,759 Speaker 1: to confuse you, even though that is the effects you 800 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: may feel. Um. But at any rate, the thing that 801 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: confuses foreigners becomes a thing that was built to confuse 802 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: them in these tellings. Oh, that's like one of those 803 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: ecocentric biases we've discovered, where you think that the the 804 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: effect a thing has on you is the purpose it 805 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: was intentionally created for. Yeah. Uh. There's a quote that 806 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: gets into some of this too that ran across. This 807 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: is from pet Penelope read Dube from the idea of 808 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: the Labyrinth from classical Antiquity through the Middle Ages. Quote, 809 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: what you see depends on where you stand. And thus, 810 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: at one and the same time, labyrinths are single. There 811 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: is one physical structure and double they simultaneously incorporate order 812 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 1: and disorder, clarity and confusion, unity and multiplicity, artistry and chaos. 813 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: Nice much like the minotaur in his double nature. Yeah, 814 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I have to say I see another 815 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: common trend as well. If you write about mazes and labyrinths, 816 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: or even if you do a little podcast that covers them. Um, 817 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: if you're doing fiction or nonfiction, it doesn't matter if 818 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: you if you do something about mazes and labyrinths, you 819 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: can end up crafting or traversing this sort of literary 820 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 1: um maze or labyrinth as well. This is something that's 821 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: that's often you know, cited in these works like just 822 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: straight up either sometimes ingest but other times as part 823 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: of the texture of the piece. Almost more than any 824 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: other physical object or structure in the world, the maze 825 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: or labyrinth just asks you to use it as a metaphor. 826 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 1: I mean, the maze is time, right, It's like you 827 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: can't see around the corner. Yeah, the maze is time. 828 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: I think that the maze is is the world, but 829 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: it's also our perception of the world. Um And again, 830 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: I think that's why this idea so engages us. There's like, 831 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: there's basically no complex system in the world or in 832 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: our you know, information technology, etcetera that you cannot apply 833 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: the metaphor of the maze and the minotaur too and 834 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: get something memorable out of it. You know, there's like 835 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: any complex system. I don't I don't care if it's 836 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: the law, or politics or or science. I mean that 837 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: whatever it is, there is conceivably a minotaur in there. Alright, 838 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break, 839 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: but we will be right back. All right, we're back now. 840 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: I think it's time that we talk a little bit 841 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: of minotaur biology because one of the things that I 842 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: have always wondered about the minotaur is why does it 843 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 1: eat humans? Now, I could imagine if the minotaur was 844 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: not the minotaur, but say the minto croc and it 845 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: had the head of a crocodile, a crocodile that could 846 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: eat a human. And so you could totally understand why 847 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,319 Speaker 1: the human with the head of a crocodile would live 848 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 1: at the center of a maze and eat fourteen youths 849 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: from Athens every year. But bulls do not normally eat humans. 850 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 1: A bull is a herbivore. It eats grass, or it 851 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: eats grain, or you know, it can of course eat 852 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: some animal protein supplemented grain if that's what you're feeding it. 853 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: But in the natural world, we do not think of 854 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: bow vines like bulls and cows as hunting and eating 855 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 1: other animals, certainly not other mammals. So why doesn't the 856 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,520 Speaker 1: minotaur just eat grass? Well, I think maybe we've got 857 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: a good answer for you, and it's along some lines 858 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: that might be familiar to listeners of the show. Now, 859 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: we've already ruined squirrels for you. You know, sometimes a 860 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: squirrel just needs to eat a bird or another rodent. 861 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: How do you like that? Well, we're going to do 862 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,920 Speaker 1: the same thing with cattle, Joe, I am. I am 863 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,360 Speaker 1: happy to report that chipmunks have also developed an appetite 864 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: for the meal worms that I put out for the squirrels. 865 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,880 Speaker 1: Uh um, that's that's been one of my recent observations. 866 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: Uh here in quarantine, more beautiful rodents getting in on 867 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,799 Speaker 1: the animal flesh action. Yeah, but they're adorable when they 868 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 1: do it. Chipmunks cannot help the adorable But but as 869 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: far as the myth goes, I guess I gathered that 870 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: the minotaur has been starved. He is down there like 871 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: an animal in a pit. Uh, so he's gonna tear 872 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,919 Speaker 1: into whatever he gets. But then, on the other hand, 873 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: of course he is not entirely bull. He has also 874 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,799 Speaker 1: part human in humans eat meat. But yeah, but if 875 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: he was fully human, wouldn't that mean he would eat 876 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: twice as much meat as it It just doesn't make 877 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: sense that like adding part bull to him would make 878 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: him more desiring of human flesh, except in the general 879 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: logic of well, he's a monster, and monsters eat humans, 880 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: so maybe he could also have the head of a 881 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 1: rabbit and he would eat humans. He would not be 882 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: as terrifying. But yeah. This brings us back to some 883 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: of the best of modern zoology, which is that some 884 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 1: of the animals, many of the animals that subsist largely 885 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,319 Speaker 1: on plant based food, are actually able to eat meat. 886 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: We now know this in the modern world, especially with 887 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: you know, modern video documentation, you can learn quite a 888 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,479 Speaker 1: bit about what supposedly docile herbivores will do when given 889 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: the opportunity. Uh. And it appears that bovines are no exception. 890 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,719 Speaker 1: So I want to start with a story that was 891 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: reported in Reuters from March seven, two thousand seven. Uh. 892 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,800 Speaker 1: This is a dateline Calcutta quote. When dozens of chickens 893 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: went missing from a remote West Bengal village, everyone blamed 894 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 1: the neighborhood dogs. That would make sense, right, you know, 895 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,799 Speaker 1: the dogs get into the chicken coop. But it continues. 896 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 1: But Agi Ghosh, the owner of the missing chickens, eventually 897 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: solved the puzzle when he caught his cow, a sacred 898 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: animal for the Hindu family, gobbling up several of them 899 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,680 Speaker 1: at night. That's gobbling up several of the chickens, not 900 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,880 Speaker 1: of the family. We were shocked to see our calf 901 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,280 Speaker 1: eating chickens alive, Ghost told Reuters by phone from chand 902 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: Poor village. The family decided to stand guard at night 903 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 1: on Monday at the cow shed, which also served as 904 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,880 Speaker 1: a hen coop, after forty eight chickens went missing in 905 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: a month. Instead of the dogs, we watched in horror 906 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,280 Speaker 1: as the calf, whom we had fondly named Lal sneak 907 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 1: to the coop and grabbed the little ones. But the 908 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: precision of a jungle cat, said his brother Gor ghosh uh. 909 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: And then it goes on to describe how a local 910 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,839 Speaker 1: television station in India went to the village to get 911 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,520 Speaker 1: pictures of the cow grabbing and eating a chicken uh 912 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: and uh. Then the article consults me here sat Pati, 913 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: who is a district veterinary officer, who said, quote, we 914 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: think lack of vital minerals in the body is causing 915 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: this behavior. We have taken a look and ask doctors 916 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 1: to look into the case immediately. The strange behavior is 917 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: possible in some exceptional cases. So it says that hundreds 918 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 1: of villagers had come to chant poor to Uh to 919 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 1: watch the cow eat and sometimes eat chickens um. And 920 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: it said that local veterinary authorities believe the cow was 921 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,960 Speaker 1: probably suffering from some kind of disease that made it 922 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: eat these chickens, but ultimately they didn't really know. Now, 923 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: on one hand, I would say, okay, this is a 924 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: Reuters report. I think of Reuter's is very credible reporting. 925 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,360 Speaker 1: But also this story feels very daily mail. You know, 926 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: I I could easily react to this and say this 927 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,480 Speaker 1: is I don't know. I don't trust this reporting except 928 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,359 Speaker 1: that there's video. I don't necessarily recommend people watch it 929 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: because I don't know if if you are inclined to 930 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: feeling bad about watching a live chicken get eaten the 931 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: whole by a cow, if that sounds like something that 932 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,839 Speaker 1: would upset you, don't check out this video. But if 933 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,440 Speaker 1: you're interested, look at it. It just yeah, it's just 934 00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: a chicken wanders up in front of the cow and 935 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: the cow just bites it and eats its whole body. 936 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: Oh man, well, you know this this brings a few 937 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: thoughts to mind. First of all, in terms of relatives 938 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:14,799 Speaker 1: of the cow that eat meat. I mean, now you 939 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: can certainly point you know, not directly, but by you know, 940 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 1: if a few degrees removed to carnivorous whales. Yes, that 941 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: is interesting, And actually I wish I had looked this up. 942 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: I don't know if the ancestors of whales. Of course, 943 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating things about whale biology is 944 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: that we now know that whales evolved from a creature 945 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,640 Speaker 1: that once dwelt on land. So the the ancestors whales 946 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 1: going way back were land dwelling tetrapod mammals, four footed 947 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: mammals that walked around on the earth. And we know 948 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: that over millions of years, they gradually adapted and evolved 949 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: to a sea based existence. And I don't know if 950 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,440 Speaker 1: their ancestors on land were carnivorous or not, or if 951 00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: they transitioned to eating meat once they became uh full 952 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: time dwellers of the sea. Well this makes me think 953 00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: also of horses, because there are tales of horses eating 954 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,600 Speaker 1: meat as well. UM. And I I was not familied 955 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: with this story previously, but even shackledon UM, they explore 956 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,080 Speaker 1: UH and noted his his his pony socks UH, preferring 957 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,840 Speaker 1: a meat based diet in UH. In some in the 958 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, the harsher climates, This would have been in 959 00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight, I believe. Yeah, So there are a 960 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 1: lot of these little stories here and there, and you 961 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,840 Speaker 1: wonder if you should believe the stories now. In the 962 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,880 Speaker 1: case of the cow in the West Bengal village, there's 963 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,720 Speaker 1: at least video or there's video of a cow eating 964 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: a chicken that I think is video of that cow. 965 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,479 Speaker 1: I can't be a hundred percent certain, but whatever cow 966 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,480 Speaker 1: it is, it's eating a chicken. I don't think there's 967 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,640 Speaker 1: any special effects involved. But but but no, apparently this 968 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: is it's not limited to just these few weird cases 969 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,840 Speaker 1: described in the extreme. UH. For example, I was reading 970 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,200 Speaker 1: a paper in the Wilson Journey All of Ornithology from 971 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,400 Speaker 1: two thousand five by Jamie L. Knack and Christine A. 972 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,400 Speaker 1: Ribbic or Ribbits r I B I C called apparent 973 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,960 Speaker 1: predation by cattle at grassland bird nests. The authors here 974 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 1: were documenting pastures in southwestern Wisconsin during the years two 975 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: thousand to two thousand one which were used for cattle grazing. 976 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 1: So there's video documentation of what's going on in these pastures, 977 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 1: and UH, it was noticed there was something odd that 978 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,760 Speaker 1: was noticed about this video. Cattle appeared to be mostly 979 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,160 Speaker 1: grazing but also occasionally quote behaving as a vian predators, 980 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:41,399 Speaker 1: removing nestlings and eggs from three active ground nests. So 981 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,760 Speaker 1: with video documentation, they showed that cattle were removing eggs 982 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 1: and baby birds from bird nests that were on the 983 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: ground or at ground level and probably eating them. A 984 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 1: couple of the nests belonged to the savannah sparrow past 985 00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: circulus sandwich insist that is its name him uh. And 986 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,360 Speaker 1: in one of these savannah sparrow nests, they removed three 987 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,840 Speaker 1: of the four eggs from the nest, and they damaged 988 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: the fourth egg. In the other savannah sparrow nest, they 989 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,160 Speaker 1: removed all three of the nestlings. So these were baby birds. 990 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: They were already hatched there they took them out of 991 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,560 Speaker 1: the nest. There was another nest that belonged to the 992 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,320 Speaker 1: eastern meadow lark, which is Sternella magna, and the cattle 993 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 1: apparently took all four nestlings out of this nest. Uh 994 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 1: the author's right quote. We found only two of the 995 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:32,320 Speaker 1: three missing eggs intact and one of seven missing nestlings 996 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 1: dead near two of the nests. Cows may have eaten 997 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,360 Speaker 1: the egg and nestlings we were unable to account for. Alternatively, 998 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,799 Speaker 1: the egg and nestlings may have been scavenged by predators 999 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,320 Speaker 1: or removed from the area by the adult birds. Without 1000 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,799 Speaker 1: videotaped documentation, we would have attributed nest failure to traditional 1001 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: predators and cattle would not have been implicated. We may 1002 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: be underestimating the impact of cattle on ground nests by 1003 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,359 Speaker 1: not considering cattle as ventil predators. This is almost like 1004 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,200 Speaker 1: you're wondering, you know, you find like your window broken 1005 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,440 Speaker 1: and several items missing from your house and you assume 1006 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,320 Speaker 1: it is a burglar until the I don't know, until 1007 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:17,479 Speaker 1: the can't security camera footage reveals it was your house cat. Yeah. 1008 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,080 Speaker 1: I mean the cows are out there in the field. 1009 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 1: They're easy to take for granted. Um. I also love 1010 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: how this feels very much like something from Gary Larson 1011 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,840 Speaker 1: Far Side cartoons. You know, this is exactly what his 1012 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,719 Speaker 1: cows would be up to. They got out their cow 1013 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 1: tools and then they went to town on the nests. Um. 1014 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,719 Speaker 1: So what do we make of this? Well? I was 1015 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,280 Speaker 1: reading about this on a blog post by the British 1016 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: paleo zoologist Darren Nice. He's got a blog called tetrapod Zoology. 1017 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,720 Speaker 1: It's a very good blog and Nice makes the following points. 1018 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,600 Speaker 1: First of all, a lot of animals that we understand 1019 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,960 Speaker 1: as strict herbivores are just not really that strict. Uh. 1020 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,759 Speaker 1: You know, they are primarily herbivores, but there are certain scenarios. 1021 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,840 Speaker 1: Eating of other animals is quote absolutely deliberate and likely 1022 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,560 Speaker 1: motivated by a need for calcium. This brings us back 1023 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:10,480 Speaker 1: to the squirrels, right. This came up in some of 1024 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,239 Speaker 1: our research about squirrels gnawing on the bones of other animals. 1025 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: A a leading hypothesis to explain why something that is 1026 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 1: mostly herbivorous would sometimes need to like eat a bird 1027 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: skull or something, and the ideas that there are certain 1028 00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: mineral deficiencies that can lead to it, primarily calcium. But 1029 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,640 Speaker 1: deer and other hoofed animals in particular have frequently been 1030 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,280 Speaker 1: observed eating the antlers and bones of other dead animals. 1031 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: Red deer or service a lap as sometimes eat seabirds, 1032 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:46,600 Speaker 1: but Nice reports that they sometimes appear to intentionally avoid 1033 00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: eating the flesh of the birds, sort of separating out 1034 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: the bones and just eating those bones. He also mentions 1035 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,400 Speaker 1: the study that I just talked about where videotape caught 1036 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,480 Speaker 1: domestic cattle rating ground level bird nests and apparently eating 1037 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,520 Speaker 1: the birds, eating the chicks and the eggs, and Nice 1038 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:09,280 Speaker 1: says quote this behavior is likely opportunistic, but may well 1039 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: be common and widespread. It is difficult to document since 1040 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,880 Speaker 1: it mostly occurs at night and no evidence remains. I 1041 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,480 Speaker 1: guess unless you're just randomly picking through you know, cow 1042 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,120 Speaker 1: feeces to see if there are bird bones in it, 1043 00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: and then there are just a bunch of other examples, 1044 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,200 Speaker 1: it often appears to be opportunistic. A cow is not 1045 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,080 Speaker 1: going to chase down a human and eat it, but 1046 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: small defenseless animals they might just sort of be in 1047 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,080 Speaker 1: the why not zone. Now, there are a few other 1048 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:43,120 Speaker 1: reasons that animals we think of as strict herbivores might 1049 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,960 Speaker 1: sometimes eat meat. Nice points out a study from two 1050 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 1: thousand by b. B and Griffiths that documented how cattle 1051 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 1: drinking from water sources often accidentally ingest lots of water 1052 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,400 Speaker 1: dwelling life, say tadpoles, So they are eating the tadpoles, 1053 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: but it doesn't appear to be on purpose. They're just 1054 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 1: sort of like getting sucked into the mouth in the 1055 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 1: same way. I think probably grazing herbivores end up eating 1056 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 1: a lot of insects without meaning to. I think a 1057 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,560 Speaker 1: lot of carnivory by herbivores is probably just a result 1058 00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: of not being super picky or careful while eating plants 1059 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,080 Speaker 1: or drinking water. So one option is that some herbivores 1060 00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: deliberately eat other animals to make up for a mineral deficiency. 1061 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,360 Speaker 1: Another option is it's just accidental. But then Nice goes 1062 00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,280 Speaker 1: on to say, quote, but as shown by the studies 1063 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: cited below, bird eating in bovids and deer may actually 1064 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,560 Speaker 1: just be a fairly normal bit of behavior that we're 1065 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,440 Speaker 1: only beginning to document. I also think that individuals of 1066 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:47,640 Speaker 1: herbivorous species sometimes learn quote accidentally that they can kill 1067 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 1: and eat other animals, and then take to this habit 1068 00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,800 Speaker 1: as and when the opportunity arises. That is because they 1069 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: can not because they need to. In fact, I'd go 1070 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,600 Speaker 1: as far as saying that an ammals and other organisms 1071 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,200 Speaker 1: likely do a lot of things simply because they can 1072 01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: not because their anatomy or physiology is is specifically suited 1073 01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:14,160 Speaker 1: to that activity. So there seems to be quite possibly 1074 01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,080 Speaker 1: a role for just sort of you know, almost like 1075 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,880 Speaker 1: skin aery in kind of adaptation. Right, if you just 1076 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,760 Speaker 1: happen to eat an animal one time and it works 1077 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,080 Speaker 1: out just fine for you, you might well learn that like, oh, 1078 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, this is a this is a beneficial activity 1079 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,040 Speaker 1: I never thought of doing before, But I can just 1080 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,040 Speaker 1: keep repeating it if it seems to yield a benefit. 1081 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes when we consider ideas like being 1082 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,040 Speaker 1: a herbivore or a carnivore, I think the metabolic bottleneck 1083 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: is is not nearly as likely to rule out meat 1084 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,360 Speaker 1: as it is to rule out tough, fibrous, or chemically 1085 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,880 Speaker 1: hostile plant matter. I mean, what what you need to 1086 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,959 Speaker 1: have a really specialized digestive system to digest. I would 1087 01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: think it is probably more likely to be plants than 1088 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: to be meat. Animal flesh is relatively energy rich and 1089 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,840 Speaker 1: easy to digest. Yeah, I mean, we certainly see that 1090 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,400 Speaker 1: in in uh animals like the panda, which I would 1091 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 1: have adapted over time from this um more very diet 1092 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: to a very particular herbivorous diet. Yeah, exactly. So you know, 1093 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,160 Speaker 1: obviously different animals have differently specialized digestive systems. Those are 1094 01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,720 Speaker 1: shaped by evolution like everything else. But without being sure, 1095 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,760 Speaker 1: I'd imagine it's probably easier for more herbivores to get 1096 01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,040 Speaker 1: down on some available meat than it would be for 1097 01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,600 Speaker 1: carnivores to try to survive on leaves. M That's interesting, 1098 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:39,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know. This is one of those many 1099 01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: things where you start to wonder about what undocumented observations 1100 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,280 Speaker 1: could have occurred in the ancient world. You know, if 1101 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,720 Speaker 1: somebody suddenly had a cow like law that starts eating chickens, 1102 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,200 Speaker 1: or somebody has a bull that starts eating I don't know, 1103 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: whatever kind of meat you give to it. Could that 1104 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,320 Speaker 1: give rise to the idea that that well, maybe there's 1105 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,040 Speaker 1: some kind of like hidden monstrous nature that is easy 1106 01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,760 Speaker 1: to unlock when you starve a bull and make meat. 1107 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,280 Speaker 1: It's only opportunity to get calories. Huh. Well, you know, 1108 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm not as well read on on this episode, but 1109 01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,200 Speaker 1: the minotaur would not be the only Greek mythological um 1110 01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: herbivore to eat meat, specifically the meat of humans, because 1111 01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,760 Speaker 1: you also have the mayors of the Omides, the man 1112 01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,480 Speaker 1: eating herd of horses that were one of the labors 1113 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,800 Speaker 1: of Hercules. Right he had to corral them or something, right? Ah? Yeah, 1114 01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,560 Speaker 1: and uh and I if I remember correctly, Like there, 1115 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,960 Speaker 1: it's it's sometimes implied that like this is part of 1116 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,480 Speaker 1: their magical nature that they eat humans, but other times 1117 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,080 Speaker 1: it's like it's the ideas they've been conditioned to do 1118 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 1: so because this is the way their master treats them. Yeah, 1119 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:48,000 Speaker 1: that they feed unsuspecting guests on the island to these 1120 01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,400 Speaker 1: man eating horses. I mean, I would be surprised. Again, 1121 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would be surprised if a 1122 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:59,000 Speaker 1: if a bovine could live entirely on meat. It does 1123 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 1: have a ru minute digestive system that is in many 1124 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: ways specialized to eating tough plant matter. But but yeah, 1125 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you could probably get by 1126 01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:12,280 Speaker 1: feeding feeding a well adapted bull or cow all kinds 1127 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,040 Speaker 1: of strange things if you give it an acquired taste, 1128 01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,800 Speaker 1: so uh so as possible, something like this lies behind 1129 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: the horror of the Minotaur. Yeah, if Ernest Shackleton gives you, um, 1130 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,720 Speaker 1: some feed with some some meat added to it, you 1131 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,160 Speaker 1: want seconds. Well, I think we're gonna have to wrap 1132 01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,280 Speaker 1: it up for part one here, But there is so 1133 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,760 Speaker 1: much more fun minute our stuff to talk about. We 1134 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,280 Speaker 1: need to talk about my knowing crete. We've got to 1135 01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:40,160 Speaker 1: talk about other weird scientific interpretations of the origin of 1136 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:44,120 Speaker 1: the minotaur legend. I'm I'm so excited for part two. 1137 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,800 Speaker 1: I can't wait. Oh and by the way, we originally 1138 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,360 Speaker 1: intended for part two of our Minotaur series to come 1139 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:55,680 Speaker 1: out this following Thursday. Due to some scheduling issues, we're 1140 01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:59,520 Speaker 1: going to actually have to air part two the next Tuesday, 1141 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,960 Speaker 1: so it'll be a week out from this episode, so 1142 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:03,720 Speaker 1: you have an extra week there to be lost in 1143 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,919 Speaker 1: the maze. Since we're talking about myths, uh and the monsters. 1144 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:10,640 Speaker 1: First of all, we have other episodes in the vault 1145 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,680 Speaker 1: dealing with these, such as the Medusa episodes. We have 1146 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,800 Speaker 1: episodes that deal with data lists UH in more detail. 1147 01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,200 Speaker 1: But also if you go to stuff to Blow your 1148 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,040 Speaker 1: Mind dot com, that will shoot you over to our 1149 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:24,480 Speaker 1: I Heart page and if you look over to the 1150 01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,320 Speaker 1: right there you'll see some show links and you'll see 1151 01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,560 Speaker 1: something that says store. Click on that. See I'm guiding 1152 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,200 Speaker 1: you through the labyrinth here. Click on that and you 1153 01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,600 Speaker 1: will go to our key public store and here you'll 1154 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:39,800 Speaker 1: find we actually have some monstrous shirts available. We have, 1155 01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,680 Speaker 1: of course, the the all Hail the Great basiliska shirt 1156 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,720 Speaker 1: uh that relates to a monster episode. We have two 1157 01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,560 Speaker 1: different monstrous squirrel episodes, one with a squirrel gnawing on 1158 01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,840 Speaker 1: a bone with death in its eyes, and then we 1159 01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,120 Speaker 1: have the skug King of Rats shirt and uh, I 1160 01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,880 Speaker 1: am I am to understand that there will soon be 1161 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,840 Speaker 1: an additional a Deusa's shirt added that says Petrifying Gaze 1162 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,120 Speaker 1: with a with an illustration that my son created of 1163 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,240 Speaker 1: so it's like it's drawn by an eight year old 1164 01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,480 Speaker 1: and eight year old's um dedicated idea of what the 1165 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,320 Speaker 1: Medusa looks like. Lest it be forgotten, your son was 1166 01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,600 Speaker 1: also the origin of the phrase skug king of Rats, 1167 01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,720 Speaker 1: which I think might be my favorite shirt in our store. 1168 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,480 Speaker 1: I love my scug King of Rat's shirt. Yeah, he 1169 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: still wears he's wearing this the other day. Um, that's 1170 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 1: why he is a head of marketing. Well deserved promotion. Now, 1171 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,680 Speaker 1: wherever you get our podcast, we do just ask that 1172 01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: you rate, review and subscribe, especially if those are positive ratings. 1173 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,520 Speaker 1: Positive reviews, um, then you then you should do so. 1174 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,800 Speaker 1: That's a way you can help us out huge thanks 1175 01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,040 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1176 01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:49,760 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1177 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,240 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1178 01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,480 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 1179 01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,160 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow 1180 01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:07,080 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is 1181 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,800 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 1182 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio with the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1183 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:23,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.