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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Kopbooted Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder

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Speaker 2: that history is cool and uh oh god, that makes

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Speaker 2: me sound like I'm about to turn my chair backwards

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Speaker 2: and sit on it with a backwards baseball cap.

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Speaker 1: You're right, I should get confirmed. God is cool.

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Speaker 2: This would be like a college dropout trying to convince

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Speaker 2: someone to finish their degree.

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Speaker 1: If I told you to get confirmed, I never got confirmed.

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Speaker 2: I didn't either. But my guest, my unconfirmed guest, is

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Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus Hi.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Yeah, I'm not whole in the eyes of God.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: I actually originally Jamie was going to be my guest

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Speaker 2: for the Halloween episode. Originally, but things got in the

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Speaker 2: way and I had been planning on specifically saying the

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Speaker 2: Halloween episode is about druids. Yes, And I was going

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Speaker 2: to say, Jamie, you're from Boston, that makes you basically Irish.

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Speaker 1: I am actually three quarters.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay cool. Yeah, that had been my plan when

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Speaker 2: I was going to talk about Truid's so and then

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Speaker 2: I actually mostly talked about France and Britain.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Hey, familiar to this week? Yeah yeah, yeah. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I wasn't on the Halloween episode is because

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Speaker 1: an animal died in my walls in a way that

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Speaker 1: felt very like, first of all, it's sad, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then also it's hard not to view it as like

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Speaker 1: a sign. It's hard not to view like when your

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Speaker 1: whole house smells like rot and death, it's hard not

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Speaker 1: to take it personally. And I was taking a que personally.

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Speaker 2: Especially when the veil is then whether or not you

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Speaker 2: believe in that, it's still just things are extra spooky

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Speaker 2: and fall no matter what you believe in.

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Speaker 1: The timing was very suspicious. Yeah, I was like, first

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Speaker 1: of all, the animal spirit has passed into her home.

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Speaker 1: I hope they're not trapped. And also, boy did the

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Speaker 1: vessel smell like fucking shit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Bad, bad.

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Speaker 2: I think it's probably good that the maybe single most

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Speaker 2: core thing that scent does is say that smells like death.

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Speaker 2: Leave now, Yes, But when it's your home, you.

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Speaker 1: Can't your home, you have no choice, and the chemicals do.

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Speaker 1: I think I was like placebo affecting myself, but I

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Speaker 1: was convinced that the chemicals were starting to get into

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Speaker 1: my head.

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Speaker 2: I would have convinced myself that very quickly.

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Speaker 1: I understand I was allowed to get into any pedantic

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Speaker 1: argument I wanted because of the chemicals.

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Speaker 2: Right, but does that also apply to everyone else in

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Speaker 2: the house?

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Speaker 1: Certainly not, certainly not.

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Speaker 2: You'll let you get the excuse of the chemicals. This

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Speaker 2: is good to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm built a little different and so the chemicals are

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Speaker 1: going to affect me because I'm very sensitive.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we are on part two of a two parter

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Speaker 2: about non Helema, a Shawnee warrior and chief and interpreter.

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Speaker 2: And oh, the first half of this post story is

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Speaker 2: going to be good, but the last, the heel turn,

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Speaker 2: is gonna heal turn. But we'll get to that later.

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Speaker 1: Wait, Okay, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm like, I don't really

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Speaker 1: have a guess.

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Speaker 2: I almost feel bad. We'll get to it. We'll talk

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Speaker 2: about when we get to it, but first we should

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Speaker 2: talk about the fact that we have an audio engineer

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Speaker 2: named Eva hi Eva hi Eva, and our theme music

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Speaker 2: was written for us by unwoman. And I promised you

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Speaker 2: Pontiac's war you did, which is not a Mad Max

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Speaker 2: thing with cars.

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Speaker 1: I'm like trying to be better about when I just

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Speaker 1: don't know something that is embarrassing to not know. I

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Speaker 1: did not know who Pontiac was until today.

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Speaker 2: No, I think that's good. I remember when it became

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Speaker 2: this like very direct change, when I stopped smiling and nodding,

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Speaker 2: when my theory bros were like, oh, you know, like

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Speaker 2: the postmodern Delusian concept of whatever or whatever, when I

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Speaker 2: started just being like, I don't know what that is,

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Speaker 2: and like not even asking, yeah, not even necessarily asking

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Speaker 2: what it is, just telling them being like, you're making

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Speaker 2: a reference that I don't get.

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Speaker 1: I feel like specifically now because I got so accustomed

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Speaker 1: to pretending that I knew they either because you're like

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Speaker 1: I don't I'm not interested and I don't want to

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Speaker 1: hear more, or alternatively, I feel like now it's I

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Speaker 1: don't know that like chunk of Twitter years where everyone

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Speaker 1: had to pretend to know everything and have an informed

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Speaker 1: opinion about it. You're like, that's a motherfucker to shake

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Speaker 1: off it.

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Speaker 2: Is, and like that's like one of the things I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking about, Like even like the French and Indian Warm.

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Speaker 2: I've had to look up what the French Indian War

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Speaker 2: is so many times because of the show, because it

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Speaker 2: directly affects an awful lot about how people resisted the

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Speaker 2: American Empire and I still forget what year it was,

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Speaker 2: like what the even some of the broad strokes are

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Speaker 2: and I'm just like instead of just being like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: everyone knows about Pontiacs War, like you know what, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know about Pontiac's War. It's fine. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also because like the reasons that we don't know

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Speaker 1: about Pontiac's War are historically significant.

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Speaker 2: Totally, because it is painted as if Pontiac was the

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Speaker 2: bad guy and lost, and so it was just like

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Speaker 2: yet another successful win for the American is soon to

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Speaker 2: be patriotic revolutionaries, you know, yeehaw. Yeah. And so basically

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Speaker 2: France had just lost the French and Indian War and

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Speaker 2: given Ohio roughly the Ohio Valley to the British. But

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Speaker 2: the people who lived there were like, no, that's not

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Speaker 2: we live here. And so a fuck ton of different

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Speaker 2: nations came together and went to war together. It's called

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Speaker 2: Pontiac's War because one of the charismatic leaders, one of

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Speaker 2: the two people who are named and I forgot to

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Speaker 2: write down the other person's name, like most of historians,

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Speaker 2: one of the two people who's like mostly credited bringing

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Speaker 2: the tribes together to fight against a common enemy was

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Speaker 2: Chief pont in the Act of the Ottawa People. Although

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Speaker 2: now that I know how much non Jlemo's written out

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Speaker 2: of everything, I'm wondering if he had another like female

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Speaker 2: counterpart who's just also entirely written out of the story

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Speaker 2: by the white people who wrote it.

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Speaker 1: Safe to say, I mean, I feel like every historical

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Speaker 1: figure you know, there's someone erased behind them, I guess,

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Speaker 1: irrespective of gender.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm not trying to dismiss Chief Piani. I

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Speaker 2: don't know enough about him. I haven't a deep dived

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Speaker 2: him yet. It's the kind of thing I might at

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Speaker 2: some point, and for a while they push back the

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Speaker 2: empire really effectively. The good guys do lose that war

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Speaker 2: in the end. But along the way non Helema became

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Speaker 2: a war chief. And presumably this happened in the way

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Speaker 2: where like they have that bilateral thing that I was

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Speaker 2: talking about, where you have the two lodges, and then

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Speaker 2: the women's lodge splits into the matriarch's war Council. My

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Speaker 2: understanding is that she would have then been elected by

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Speaker 2: that as a war chief. But that is an inference

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Speaker 2: on my part, because no one bothers writing that. Where

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Speaker 2: I have found it. Yet there's a lot of books

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Speaker 2: written about this that I'm not trying to be like

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Speaker 2: no one writes about it. I'm like, yeah, I have

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Speaker 2: a week to write these things. Right, she might have

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Speaker 2: actually been a war chief prior to that, in the

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Speaker 2: French and Indian War. It would make a lot of

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Speaker 2: sense for her have been doing that. She was certainly

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Speaker 2: chief of her area, and like would have made sense.

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Speaker 2: And her brother Cornstock, is a war chief in Pontiac's

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Speaker 2: War two, and this is considered really auspicious and good

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Speaker 2: to be led by a brother and sister team. Okay,

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Speaker 2: because in that bilateral system where you men and women's

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Speaker 2: councils doing the war councils, having a woman and her

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Speaker 2: husband in charge is seen as great. But a sister

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Speaker 2: and a brother is like even better, right, And I

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Speaker 2: find that really sweet. Both parts of that.

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Speaker 1: It it weirdly makes sense to me. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know that there's whatever history is littered with examples of

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Speaker 1: sibling follouts with global consequences. Yeah, but with a good

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Speaker 1: sibling bond, like that's I feel like a good sibling

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Speaker 1: bond can be stronger than marriage.

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Speaker 2: I think so too, And I think that that's The

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Speaker 2: implication is that because they have been working together on

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Speaker 2: some level since infancy, or at least since one of

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Speaker 2: them was an infant, I think that she is the older,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not sure so even more than Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: bond between a husband and wife is a sister and

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Speaker 2: her brother. If again they get along all right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, someone who knew you with your original set of teeth.

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Speaker 1: That's powerful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally when you had a shark mouth. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever seen kids? Actually, I bring this up all the time.

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Speaker 2: This is the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the existential horror that is children's faces.

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Speaker 1: And it's exciting because you get five dollars sometimes, So

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Speaker 1: there's a capitalistic element.

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Speaker 2: That's true. That's true.

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Speaker 1: Teeth, Yeah, yes, the commodifying of the child's mouth.

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Speaker 2: I think it's to make the child less of a shark,

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Speaker 2: just like, really reward them for being less scary. If

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Speaker 2: anyone ever wants to give themselves minor nightmares, just go

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Speaker 2: ahead and google a child's mouth x ray, and then

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Speaker 2: good luck looking at children the same. So she went

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Speaker 2: into battle, and this is the what mid sixties. She's

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Speaker 2: like forty eight at this point, and we don't have.

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Speaker 2: The things I've read have been like, look, she probably

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Speaker 2: physically fought, but we don't one hundred percent know that.

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Speaker 2: But I think we have every reason to believe it,

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Speaker 2: especially with like some of the nicknames that she's going

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Speaker 2: to be getting in a.

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Speaker 1: Minute, especially if she's like a seasoned leader in this

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Speaker 1: in this area too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the whole lead from the back thing is

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Speaker 2: like a I think, a newer cultural concept in a

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Speaker 2: lot of places. I don't know as much about Shawne

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Speaker 2: culture as relates to this, but I know in a

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Speaker 2: lot of places, like the lead from the back thing

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Speaker 2: isn't going to fly. People are like, hey, you want

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Speaker 2: us to die and you don't have any skin in

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Speaker 2: the game. No, I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that for me is a non starter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So she goes into battle painted all black

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Speaker 2: and naked according to some sources. In other sources that

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Speaker 2: I believe are doing a modesty claim that she's naked

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Speaker 2: except for a loincloth and sandals.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like digitally editing clothes on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In other versions of this, she painted half of her

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Speaker 2: face black for death and the other half red for

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Speaker 2: blood drama.

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Speaker 1: I like it.

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Speaker 2: I like that so much. We know that she fought

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Speaker 2: at least in the Battle of Bushy Run, which was

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Speaker 2: a turning point in the war. Unfortunately, it was a

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Speaker 2: bad turning point. Basically, you know, the evil Empire spreading

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Speaker 2: into the good guy's alliance side, and they're you know,

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Speaker 2: they have set up all these forts, and so Pontiac's war,

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Speaker 2: they're like, we're gonna take all the forts, and they

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Speaker 2: take like nine out of eleven of them or something

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Speaker 2: like that. Right away. They just sort like, fuck it,

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Speaker 2: let's go, and they take all these forts. But there's

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Speaker 2: this one fort, Fort pitt which I believe is where

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Speaker 2: Pittsburgh gets its name. But I have been more certain

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Speaker 2: about things, and it's kind of the entrance to the

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Speaker 2: Ohio Valley, which is basically like sense later. I mean,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the American Revolution is literally going to

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Speaker 2: be white settlers who are like, but we want to

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Speaker 2: go west and take more stuff, and the king doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to let us. And it takes a lot to

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Speaker 2: make me make a whiny voice defending the King of England.

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Speaker 2: Like as discussed earlier, I'm also irish, you know, and

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Speaker 2: not my favorite thing to do. So Fort Pitt is

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Speaker 2: like one of the most fortified forts in the war.

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Speaker 2: That's where fort gets their.

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Speaker 1: Name, the fortiest fort.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it's the fortieth fort. I'm out of puns.

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Speaker 1: Let's move to Pitt. There's plenty of pit puns.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. Oh there's gonna be a real bad pit

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Speaker 2: story later. But oh, I'm sorry. The colonists were real

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Speaker 2: fucked up anyway.

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Speaker 1: No one's ever said that before. I'm so glad.

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Speaker 2: I know. It's funny because whenever you read these histories,

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Speaker 2: it's always like, well, there's atrocities on both sides, and

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Speaker 2: they just like leave it at that.

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Speaker 1: You're like, okay, cities in the room with us, Like.

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Speaker 2: What do you Yeah, totally like, is there a difference

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Speaker 2: in systemic power between these two groups of people.

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Speaker 1: Oh, don't worry about don't you worry yet?

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Speaker 3: It.

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Speaker 2: So they lay siege to Fort Pitt. They're sieging it

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Speaker 2: for several days, but then they see a British army

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Speaker 2: marching nearby, like coming up alongside i think, kind of

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Speaker 2: to flank them, and they're like, all right, we got

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Speaker 2: to go fucking attack that. We're going to ambush them,

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Speaker 2: and they lose and the war starts to turn against

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Speaker 2: the Indigenous folks at that point. But what's funny, most

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00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 2: historical sources on this will be like kind of neutral

256
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 2: and just present the facts as they understand it. But

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Speaker 2: you see some that are like it was the scrappy

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Speaker 2: Brits who were outnumbered but stood there ground and won

259
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Speaker 2: the day. There's a movie out from a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago when I was googling for the Battle of

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Speaker 2: Bushy Run, and it's like this weird propaganda film about

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00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 2: like as if we're back still in like whenever they

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00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,440
Speaker 2: made all of the worst Indian Wars movies, there's a

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Speaker 2: new one.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you could really make an argument for a

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Speaker 1: lot of decades. I worry because it's happening that like

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00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,760
Speaker 1: any like surge forward in like indigenous cinema in the

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Speaker 1: US and in Canada from the last fifteen or twenty years.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like the movies will continue to exist, the

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Speaker 1: creatives are still there, but it's like we're gonna start

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Speaker 1: getting those big ten pole like fake ass history movies

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Speaker 1: again because of yeah, you're probably right, yeah, so look

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Speaker 1: up for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I don't know, I haven't seen this movie,

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00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 2: but it seems to be from the point of view

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00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 2: of the scrappy Brits and their highlander friends, because it

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00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 2: was you know, highlander soldiers or whatever. It was a

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00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,440
Speaker 2: big part of this whatever. And yeah, some sources be

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Speaker 2: like the scrappy Brits were outnumbered, but they stood their

280
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,320
Speaker 2: ground against the evil Hordes or whatever and won the day.

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Speaker 2: It was about five hundred veteran British soldiers with like

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Speaker 2: modern arms versus about three hundred to five hundred warriors. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so that's not what they're saying. Yeah, after a few

284
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,160
Speaker 2: days of fighting, they ambush the Brits. The Brits fall back,

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00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 2: they build a defensive fortification out of like bags of

286
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 2: oats and shit, and they hold off for a little while,

287
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 2: and then they counter ambush and they send the enemy

288
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,840
Speaker 2: into a route and the British like random down and

289
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 2: killed them as best as I can tell, Okay. And

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00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 2: after that defeat, this is the turning point of Pontiac's war.

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00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 2: The British. The way they really win is not on

292
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 2: the battlefield. They start picking tribes off out of the

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00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 2: coalition by going and offering them one on one treaties,

294
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 2: being like, hey, you want to, you know, break the

295
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: rebel alliance by you.

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Speaker 1: Know, God joining us, and how many versions of that

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00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 1: has happened over history of like, let's break down the

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00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 1: solidarity of these disparate groups and that's how we will

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00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 1: continue our evil project. I know this song. I know

300
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 1: this song.

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00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:03,400
Speaker 2: It's happening right now, Okay. Yeah, and non Helena earned

302
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 2: a fearsome reputation during this war, and the British honored

303
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,680
Speaker 2: her by giving her a slur nickname. They called her

304
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Speaker 2: the Grenadier and then a slur that's still used today

305
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 2: against Native women.

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00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,000
Speaker 1: God okay, and the slur.

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00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 2: Part, I'm like, yeah, I know where they came up

308
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: with that grenadier were They were basically the shock troops

309
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,520
Speaker 2: of Western Europe at the time, because you wanted the biggest, strongest,

310
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 2: like the physically strongest soldiers for the job to stand

311
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Speaker 2: there and throw grenades. Okay, and later the grenadiers become

312
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 2: like the tip of the spear, like the kind of

313
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 2: pre marine marines in Western European militaries.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

315
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 2: And so really big folks are the grenadiers, and so

316
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 2: this is like part of why the whole she's actually

317
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 2: probably very tall, It's probably true, okay, because they gave

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00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 2: her a nickname.

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00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,880
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm getting closer to being sold on six

320
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 1: six want to leave six'?

321
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 2: Six, Yeah and so they called her whole town The

322
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 2: Grenadier slurs. Town and eventually in seventeen sixty, eight remember

323
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 2: how The french were, like, yeah y'all can Have ohio

324
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 2: were not using? It, well now The Iroquois federation are

325
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,560
Speaker 2: also going to give Away ohio in a. Treaty they

326
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 2: claim most Of ohio. Territory they sign a treaty with

327
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 2: The empire to, say, yeah you can settle. There but

328
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 2: they were just speaking for, themselves not The shawnee or

329
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 2: The mingo people who are still living. There, right and

330
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 2: so this is the second time that someone else has

331
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 2: traded Away shawnee territory without Asking. God, okay, yeah so

332
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 2: The shawnee are not done, Fighting.

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00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 1: No but do you know we're not done doing listening

334
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,320
Speaker 1: to advertisements for incredible products and, services.

335
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 2: That's, Right that's, right yes it. IS i mostly get

336
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 2: ads for other, podcasts many of which are probably perfectly,

337
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: good but who.

338
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: KNOWS i actually recently it was successfully. Influenced it took a,

339
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 1: decade BUT i finally bought a.

340
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 2: Produm, OH i have done this, too oh.

341
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 1: GOD i was like. ASHAMED i was, LIKE i should

342
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,159
Speaker 1: be stronger than, this BUT i was, like you know,

343
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 1: what my mom would love that for the. Holidays, Well

344
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 1: i'll be. Goddamned maybe you'll have the same. Experience.

345
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 2: Listener it's like every TIME i get An instagram ad

346
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 2: And i'm, like, man the algorithm that got me. Good i'm, LIKE.

347
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 1: I do want those ugly ass, pants AND i want

348
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:27,640
Speaker 1: them now.

349
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely well, whatever y'all already know how you feel about

350
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 2: ads one way or the. Other so here they. Are Andrew.

351
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,880
Speaker 2: Beck so now you Have Lord Dunmore's. War clearly you've

352
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:44,239
Speaker 2: heard of this.

353
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,439
Speaker 1: One OH i Love Lord Dunmore's. War it's one of

354
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: my favorite. Wars.

355
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: Totally, yeah it is interesting that now it's. Switched you,

356
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 2: know before it Was Pontiac's, war and it's like implying

357
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,440
Speaker 2: started by the you, Know ottawa people or, whatever whereas

358
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 2: this one's Like Lord Dunn mayor is the governor Of. Virginia,

359
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,600
Speaker 2: oh so he's the one starting.

360
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 1: IT i DON'T i Appreci, yeah, right BECAUSE i was,

361
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: LIKE i think if The lord's is So, european and

362
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: then you're also, like but, Yes americans were Quite. European, okay,

363
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 1: okay it's seventeen seventy. Four, yep, Yep i'm.

364
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 2: Back so seventeen seventy. Four our Non helena is probably

365
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 2: like fifty six at this, point and she is pretty

366
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 2: much written out of this. History her, brother WHO i

367
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 2: believe is are peer in this, war gets literally all the.

368
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 2: Credit he's like one of the main chiefs in history

369
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,880
Speaker 2: of this and basically anything you read because everyone spends

370
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,880
Speaker 2: their time staying up late reading it About Lord dunmyir's.

371
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 2: War don't ask how LATE i stayed up right in

372
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,679
Speaker 2: this episode and then couldn't. Sleep you ever stay up

373
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,920
Speaker 2: slightly too late and then you're just, like, ah it's fucked.

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00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 1: NOW i mean you're like it's. Done it changes throughout the,

375
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 1: year but there is a time where you're, like there's

376
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: no going. Back, Yeah i'm committed to tomorrow.

377
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,640
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah i'll still commit to laying down and pretending

378
00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: Like i'm going to sleep for a long.

379
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 1: Time but, yeah, yeah that's when the Rare wikipedia pages find. You, yeah,

380
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: totally the ones that only twelve people have, Seen.

381
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,399
Speaker 2: Yeah those are the best. Ones, Yeah or when you

382
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 2: start looking at the talk pages on, Him oh, no,

383
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 2: yeah because you want to know the biases of the

384
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,680
Speaker 2: people who are saying these, things.

385
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,160
Speaker 1: And sometimes you just find a little argument and it's.

386
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: Fun oh, yeah the best. One one. Day everyone should

387
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 2: look At Bob Black's wikipedia talk. Page, okay, oh. Okay

388
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 2: there's this person who calls himself an. ANARCHIST i don't

389
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 2: like gaykeeping, anarchism But i'm gonna call him this way

390
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,719
Speaker 2: for a, reason who wrote a bunch of stuff in

391
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 2: the eighties and, nineties and also in the eighties or,

392
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 2: nineties he got mad at another person in his, scene

393
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 2: so he snitched him out about drugs to The seattle. Police.

394
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 2: Oh and he defends this to this day that he

395
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 2: chose to snitch out this and defends it by being, like,

396
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 2: Well i'm an. ANARCHIST i do WHAT i.

397
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 1: Want oh that's. Dirty and one of the.

398
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: Places he defends himself is The wikipedia talk.

399
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: Page oh oh, MAN i UNFORTUNATELY i find that very.

400
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 1: ENDEARING i, know The wikipedia like. Comments it is fascinating

401
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 1: because you're, like this is an in real time fight

402
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: for who is going to tell, history you, know like

403
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: in a day to day sense where you're, like, NO i,

404
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 1: INSIST i, yeah that is that is very.

405
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 2: Funny and part of his defense is that he's a

406
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 2: well established author whose books have been translated into many,

407
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: languages and the other guys and.

408
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: Nobody classic, classic you can't write history BECAUSE i think

409
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 1: you're a. Loser and, Wow, bob come, on read the, room.

410
00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,160
Speaker 1: Brother that's that's really that's. Tough that's really, funny.

411
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: Some discourse for you all to know about from a

412
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 2: long time, ago.

413
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: And Serious wikipedia editors like do not fuck with them

414
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: because they will come back and be, Like i'm, sorry,

415
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 1: Sir all sources lead to your fucking.

416
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 2: Snitch, Yeah like there's a scan of the letter he

417
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: wrote in THE i think linked in the.

418
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: Article that's, Crazy like, no, yeah, no you're a bitch

419
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 1: and we have. Proof, sorry, yeah, Sorry.

420
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 2: Bob, yeah SO i have no idea why we were

421
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 2: talking about. That But Lord dunmeir's. War, yeah so her

422
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: and her brother are. Equals, again they're you, know war

423
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: chiefs alongside each other in this war and sometimes but

424
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: not too, often or this particular where it's like mostly

425
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,719
Speaker 2: one battle and it's The battle Of Point pleasant and

426
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: sometimes it's called the First battle of The American, revolution but,

427
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: honestly not by too many, people but by including at

428
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 2: least one of the sources in this show Notes Lord

429
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: dunmore was the governor Of, virginia and he put two

430
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: on mes together to go put down The shawnee And

431
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: mingo rebels who were insisting that people couldn't just fucking

432
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: come steal all their. Land and they fought On october,

433
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: tenth seventeenth seventy, four and Non helema And cornstock had

434
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: either three hundred or twelve hundred warriors And Done moore

435
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 2: had probably about one.

436
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 1: Thousand talk about again that difference of the nine hundred people,

437
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: whatever yeahever, roughly, yeah, yeah.

438
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: Totally i'm, curious, like are the people picking the higher

439
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 2: number because it's like all the Scrappy americans beat them

440
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: back despite superior, numbers or.

441
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: Like, right, yeah there's a dishonest reason to make either,

442
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: CHOICE i guess.

443
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah and The empire won that battle, too and

444
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 2: Non helena And cornstock surrendered and they signed a new

445
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 2: treaty and they said they will stay south of the.

446
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: River we'll let white people colonize the region in exchange

447
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: for a series of lies about being respected or. Whatever that,

448
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 2: again spoiler are never. KEPT i don't know if The

449
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: United states has ever honored a single, treaty and basically

450
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: in a lot of, ways it seems like this kind

451
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 2: of broke their. Spirit, Right they've been fighting their entire.

452
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: Lives they're not, young and the SOURCE i read about

453
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: this was sort of, fictionalized SO i don't know whether

454
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: it's true or, not BUT i Think cornstock and Presumably

455
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: nonjlema voted against going to war Against Lord. Dunmore, okay

456
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: but then all of the people were, like now we're

457
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 2: going to do, It and they're, like all, right if

458
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 2: that's what we're, doing we're doing, it you. Know AND

459
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: i respect. THAT i respect people being, like, HEY i

460
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: don't think we should jump off this, bridge and everyone's, like,

461
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 2: yeah but we're gonna jump off this. Bridge like all,

462
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 2: Right i'm not a. Coward i'm gonna do.

463
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: IT i feel like that is a sign of an actual,

464
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: leader is like honoring the wish of your people even

465
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: if you don't agree with.

466
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: It.

467
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah but at this, point when they signed that peace,

468
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: treaty they lost the respect of most of their. People

469
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: For brokerane this, piece they were, convinced almost, certainly they

470
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: were convinced it was the only way to save their,

471
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: people but they were ostracized by most of The. Shawnee

472
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: i've read, that But i've also read things that really

473
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: feel like they contradict. That but for, certainly at least

474
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: a while and for the rest of their, lives the

475
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: brother and the sister respected the treaty with The. Americans

476
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: and if there, is unfortunately one lesson in history is

477
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: that if you lick, boots you're going to get your

478
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: teeth kicked. In because in seventeen seventy six or, whatever

479
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: The americans decided they were tired of letting The british

480
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: can keep them from stealing the land of the indigenous.

481
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: People and there's also some stuff about, taxes and they

482
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: threw themselves what they like to call. Revolution but my

483
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: least popular take on social media is that it is

484
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: a lateral move at. Best every fourth Of JULY i

485
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 2: make this, point and people are upset with, Me but

486
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: you know, what The American revolution was a slave empire

487
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: that wanted to be even worse than the slave empire

488
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: was breaking off.

489
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: From and people hate to hear.

490
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 2: That, no people really don't like to hear.

491
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: IT i like to hear, that, well they're getting drunk, Outside, yeah.

492
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 2: And it's funny because it's, LIKE i clearly am not

493
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 2: a particular fan of The United states continuation of a colonial.

494
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: Project but even IF i was like sold on the

495
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: ideals that they claims democracy and you, know like IF

496
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 2: i thought it actually represented democracy and things like, that

497
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: the only way to appreciate it would be to honestly

498
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: accept its, history. Right and so now we have this

499
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: like whole thing where it's, like how do you one

500
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 2: who says bad stuff about us in the past should be,

501
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: murdered you. Know and it's just, like, man if you

502
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: have to lie about your own past and you have

503
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: to tell everyone to lie about your own, past that's

504
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: not a good.

505
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: Look, No BUT i feel like THAT'S i, mean it's

506
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: not Uniquely, american but so much of what makes The

507
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: American empire effective is like selling you on the false

508
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: version of history as a. Positive it was, like, whatever

509
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: one of our biggest exports is make you shit, Up.

510
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah totally.

511
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: Being proud of.

512
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 2: It, yeah it's just. Yeah and so most of The

513
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: shawnee during The revolution are, like oh my, god fuck The.

514
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: Americans we will throw down with The british to get

515
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: The americans to fuck. Off back to The east coast

516
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: and stop them from invading, us because this was again

517
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: one of the major causes of the. War But cornstalk

518
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: and Non, helena they're non. Interventionists now they are usually

519
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: called neutral in The Revolutionary, war like every article about

520
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: it and be, like, oh they were. Neutral.

521
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: Huh.

522
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 2: Okay at Least Non helena sided with The, americans and

523
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 2: this is the heel.

524
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 3: Turn.

525
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 2: Okay but for some context to, this Non helema is

526
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: almost certainly AND i promised YOU i told you about

527
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: fifteenth Century europe for a, Reason Non helena is almost

528
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: certainly A. Moravian, Now. Okay she was most likely baptized

529
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: a couple years, earlier in seventeen seventy. Two some sources

530
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: say that she took the Name, katie but other sources

531
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: to say that that's the name her mother took when

532
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: she was. Baptized, yeah So i'm going to keep calling Her.

533
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: Nonjlema and to be, clear Being christian didn't stop her

534
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: from throwing down at seventeen seventy. Four she was, baptized

535
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: and then she led a whole lass, war you, know

536
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: And christian indigenous people threw down plenty. Hard just asked

537
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: the ghost ancers of one hundred and twenty years. Later

538
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: but The moravians are really into, pacifism and it seems

539
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: like she's starting to be convinced by that.

540
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: Too, okay and.

541
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: She's living in a time with zero good. Choices you

542
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 2: cannot make a good choice in this. SITUATION i still

543
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: don't love the choice that she. Made but what the

544
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: fuck position AM i to tell her what to have? Done?

545
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: RIGHT i, mean that's it is an absolutely impossible situation

546
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: to be put.

547
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: At. Yeah, Yeah and so On july twenty, fifth seventeen seventy,

548
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 2: seven she went to the garrison At Fort randolph and

549
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: warned The, americans INCLUDING i think one of her baby,

550
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: daddies who was in charge of the, fort warned The

551
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: americans there that The shawnee were going to attack. Them, oh,

552
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: okay this is that's the THAT'S i mean.

553
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: That, yeah you can't do. That, NO i, mean you

554
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: cannot do. That after your whole, life you cannot do. That. No,

555
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: oh that's really, BAD i.

556
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: Know but then the other complicated thing is almost all

557
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: the details we have about our life are from these

558
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: Like American patriot, pages right, Right and so you're like not,

559
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: pages but like people who are like holding her up

560
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: as this like great Because americans like that she did,

561
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: this so we know more about her decisions around, here

562
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: AND i think that this did actually, happen But i'm

563
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: also like, skeptical, right.

564
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: But, again, yeah it's like so much of how indigenous

565
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: people from you, know like hundreds of tribes are described

566
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: By americans are like it's only based on like and

567
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: here's what someone did for, us and that is why

568
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: we know about them at. All that's like how they're

569
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: canonized in. History like it's, right.

570
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah and at this, point The shawn here are like

571
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: the fuck you, LADY i mean, yeah. Fair she'd been

572
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: working as an interpreter for The americans for a while

573
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: at that, point including having kids WITH i think two of,

574
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: them Including captain McKee at the, fort and she's just

575
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: like staying with them now because she's, like, OH i

576
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: told you this, SHIT i can't go. Home that's my.

577
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: Inference then In, November cornstock and another chief Red hawk

578
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: show up at the fort and are like kind of

579
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: do the same, thing but they show up and are, like,

580
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: look we're trying to get our guys to not attack your,

581
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: guys but we can't stop, them And lick boots loose.

582
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: Teeth The americans Take cornstock And Red hawk and another

583
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: guy hostage to ensure that their people don't. Attack they're, like,

584
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: oh you showed up to warn. Us that's so. Nice

585
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: here's a jail. Cell and Then cornstock's son shows up

586
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: to talk to his dad in, jail so they arrest him. Too. God,

587
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah then Two american soldiers are ambushed and killed while

588
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: are out. Hunting so a Few american soldiers broke into

589
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: the jail cell and killed the shit out Of, Cornstalk Red,

590
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: hawk And cornstalk's.

591
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Kid that is just oh my, God, yeah, YEAH i,

592
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: mean you're totally. Right they shorthand like look a, boot

593
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: but that's that's.

594
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah it's still, heartbreaking AND i feel bad making a

595
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: quick simple like, oh you're just a boot. Liquor like

596
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: this man led two wars against The, americans and finally

597
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: he hit the point where he was LIKE i don't

598
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: think this, works you.

599
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: Know, Right And i'm sure that like they had their

600
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: rationalizations of making those impossible, choices and also LIKE i don't,

601
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: know it's like there's a million and, alsos and also

602
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: of course there are people can't, write, yeah AND.

603
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: I don't know how much access they have to knowledge

604
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: about previous broken. TREATIES i don't know whether like because

605
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: we can look back now and be, like, oh The

606
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: americans literally never kept their word and we're always going

607
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: to do all this horrible shit right, Right but this

608
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: is like early in a lot of the. CONFLICTS i,

609
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: mean some of the conflicts have been going up for,

610
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: centuries but, like, YEAH.

611
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: I mean we see people make survival based bargains like

612
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: this still today with you, know with centuries and centuries

613
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: and centuries deep into THE A Maryland. Project like so

614
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: it's like people people broker these deals with empires out

615
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: of desperation and, like of course you want to believe

616
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: that it's not gonna happen this time right?

617
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: Now?

618
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: Totally, Yeah, god that is. Heartbreaking yeah and also oh,

619
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: good does it get? Worse oh?

620
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: Yeah uhh. Yeah this is not the low point of the.

621
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: Story oh, no yeah, no this is nearly the second

622
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: ad break and we're. Back so the Two american soldiers

623
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: who the soldiers who go and kill these folks in. Jail.

624
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: Non helena is like pretty upset about, this and they

625
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: are like all, right, fine we'll try. Them you'll be

626
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: shocked to know they are found innocent because none of

627
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: their other soldiers would testify against. Them The shawnee lay

628
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: siege to the fort at this, point and they're pretty

629
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: mad at Non, helena and so they kill the shit

630
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: out of a large herd of her horses and. Cattle

631
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: and the fact that she had this large herd of

632
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: horses in cattle starts making me suspicious of her. Motives

633
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: but at some point she does end up basically getting

634
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: a deal from The americans that she has it in

635
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: writing that says they will give her one hundred acres

636
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: OR i have read a thousand or two thousand in

637
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: exchange for her services as an interpreter and trya broke

638
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: her peace and stuff like. That spoiler. Alert they are

639
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: never going to give this to. Her at one, point

640
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: she helps disguise two white soldiers As shawnee so that

641
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: they could deliver a message to another, fort and The

642
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: americans win the war. FAMOUSLY a lot Of shawnee people

643
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: aren't happy with her at this point for some weird,

644
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: reason And i've read that she's had to move into

645
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: A lenape, area But i've also read that she's still

646
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: In shawnee. AREAS i don't really, know she's also A,

647
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: moravian so she might be moving into The lenape area

648
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: that are Like european and you, know yeah that.

649
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: Blended. Yeah.

650
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah she continues her collaborationist, ways working as a guide

651
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: and a translator for THE Us Inspector general Of cavalry

652
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: in seventeen, eighty but also in seventeen, eighty her, Husband

653
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: blunthey gets a promotion of. Sorts The shawnee never had

654
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: a central government of any, kind and certainly not a

655
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: fucking king or what gets called a principal, chief but

656
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: ever since about the seventeen sixties they had to pretend

657
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: to have one in order to negotiate with The. Americans

658
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: so in seventeen, Eighty malunthey is voted principal chief by

659
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: The shawnee. People and he's still married to, her and

660
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: they're still hanging out even though all this other. Stuff

661
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: and that's the part WHERE i start being, like there's

662
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: holes in this, story BUT i don't know exactly which

663
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: ones they.

664
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: Are.

665
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: Okay by seventeen eighty, five she still hasn't gotten the

666
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: land she's been, promised and so she writes THE us

667
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: and is, like, hey CAN i am my acres, Please

668
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: and what did they. Say they were, like, yeah we're

669
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: never going to do. That but what they do is

670
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: they tell. Her it gets written as she gets a

671
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: daily food ration and an annual allowance of clothes and

672
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 2: blankets for the rest of her. Life but the actual

673
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: writing of it is, like you have to go begging

674
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: at any fort you like and they'll give you food

675
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: once a.

676
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: Day, wow that's they give her, That and that's the

677
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: reward for turning on your own. People and that's.

678
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 3: Part of the.

679
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: Reward it's gonna get, Worse. Okay to round out this,

680
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: tragedy in seventeen eighty, six THE us invades The shawnee

681
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: area and Non helena is there with her, Husband, malantha

682
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: who's the principal. Chief And malantha surrenders right off the.

683
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: Bat he is HOLDING i, believe An american flag and

684
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: a copy of the. Treaty when they show, up he's, like, hey,

685
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: buds we're, Buds american. Flag, yeah we're, good you, Know

686
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: and so he surrenders right off the bat and A

687
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: us soldier kills him right then and, there just fucking

688
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: kills him with a.

689
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: Hatchet when she's there as, well and she.

690
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: Tries to stop it and they cut off most of

691
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: their fingers in her. Hand oh my, god and she's,

692
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: LIKE i think seventy. Eight at this, point she herself

693
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: was arrested and imprisoned for being next to her. Husband

694
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: and while she's, imprisoned she gets talked into helping write

695
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: A shawnee dictionary for the commander, there and it gets

696
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: presented as, like, maybe oh this is maybe we're like

697
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: The Shawnee, dictionary you, know like, no this wasn't a

698
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: grand thing for. Science it was the people who ran

699
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: that place doing a colonialism and creating a neat. Artifact

700
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: it was sent off to A russian nobleman as a,

701
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: souvenir and Non, helena best AS i can, tell disappears

702
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: from the historical. Record she either dies in jail or

703
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: sometime shortly after she's. Released God and, okay So i'm

704
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: going to continue the. Story is a little bit to

705
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: close out The. MORAVIANS i think hearing this helps understand

706
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: THE i, mean you can also understand why people fought

707
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: The americans just, because, like, ah and they're the fucking

708
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: invaders in every movie we've ever.

709
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: Seen why, Not, yeah there are there's not a case

710
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: where they're not the.

711
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: Aggressors, yeah but to close out the story by bringing

712
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: back in our sort of, friends The moravian, folks and

713
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: they're once again mostly indigenous, people living In european style,

714
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: towns going to church and Wearing european. Clothes they stayed

715
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: neutral in the, revolution and they stayed more successfully neutral

716
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: Than Non helena had, been and both sides hated them for.

717
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: It at one, point all The, Moravians indian And german

718
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: alike were captured by The british and sent to a

719
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: town called Captive Town, nice which isn't a good name

720
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: for a.

721
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: Town, no we need a second draft and that you,

722
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: know the ruling power is really wielding a lot of

723
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: power if they're not even making up a name for

724
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: what they're. Doing they're, like, no this Is, Prisonerville, yeah

725
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: this is.

726
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: We call it this fuck you. Land.

727
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Yeah and you're, like, oh, OKAY i guess. That, yeah

728
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 1: you have. Power you're not even bothering to obscure it.

729
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah and this is The british who are and

730
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: this is during The Revolutionary, war and The british are

731
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: like slightly nicer to indigenous, people, Right and unfortunately you're

732
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: going to see the difference The british sent them To

733
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Captive town in seventeen eighty, one and it's rough In

734
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 2: Captive town come.

735
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: Winter, KIDDING i, KNOW i.

736
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: Want to do a. MUSICAL i shouldn't come. Winter they

737
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 2: don't have much food In Captive. Town so one hundred

738
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: and fifty of them are allowed to go home and

739
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: gather their winter stores and like pick their crops and.

740
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 2: Stuff about ninety of them go to their village called

741
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: A Naden, hutton which means Nat huts or Like nat.

742
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: Town OD i, know.

743
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: From Captive town To nattown, nice that's.

744
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 2: OKAY i used to The state Of land project Called,

745
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: zuckendorf which means tick village because there's a lot of ticks.

746
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: THERE i used to live in a rat.

747
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 3: City and so while they're at home in nad And,

748
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 3: hutton militiamen from A america show, up and The moravians are, like,

749
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: hello humans and feed them and give them.

750
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: Hospitality the militia men disarmed the. Folks they were, pacifists

751
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: but they had like muskets and shit for, hunting and

752
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 2: then they accused them of Killing americans and they were like, no,

753
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: like we're literally The christian pacifist. Town, Y'ALL i haven't

754
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: heard of.

755
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: Us we're welcoming the captives from Captive. Town we're the.

756
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: Pacifists we're a passifist. Town. Yeah, yeah the world should

757
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: be organized like. This it would be.

758
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 3: Helpful.

759
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah people were, like, OH i live over in that. Town, yeah. Totally.

760
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah and so they, decide The american, militiamen there's about

761
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: two hundred of, them decide they're just going to kill

762
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: all of, them and the men were taken to one

763
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: barn and women were sectually assaulted and then taken to another,

764
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: barn and they spent their night Singing christian. Hymns this

765
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: is part is. Dark and then the militia killed twenty eight,

766
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: men twenty nine, women and thirty nine children and scalped

767
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 2: them and burned the barns with their, bodies and at

768
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: least three children. Survived one had been hidden under the

769
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: floor boards with another kid and then crawled out through a,

770
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: hole but his friend that was with him had been

771
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: too big and couldn't get out the fucking hole and

772
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: died in the. Fire another kid survived being scalped and

773
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: crawled away to, safety and then at least one. Kid,

774
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: okay so the two hundred militiamen before they were, like,

775
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 2: oh we're going to kill. You they took a vote

776
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: democracy and action.

777
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 1: Everyone, Wow, okay that's that's. Huge it's just like when

778
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: they tried the criminals by the people who were afraid

779
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: of the criminals and they were found. Innocent, yeah, exactly really,

780
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: good that's. Awesome.

781
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: Okay eighteen of the militiamen voted against, it and for

782
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: years people thought those eighteen just like stood aside and

783
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 2: let it. Happen but it turns out several of them rescued.

784
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: Kids AND i don't know whether this cleans your soul or.

785
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 2: NOT i actually think if you're in the, situation you

786
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: have a moral obligation to go down fighting your own

787
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: friends before they massacre. People but, yeah, whatever, again.

788
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 1: This is a. Story but what happens when you don't do? That, yeah, yeah.

789
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: Several of them rescued, kids at least one, kid probably,

790
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: more and hid them in the. Bushes and the one

791
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: kid that we know about was raised by the white

792
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: guy who had rescued, him and then as soon as

793
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: he was old, enough he went back to a Remaining

794
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: moravian settlement and reunited with his surviving. Family and you

795
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: know that the militia people robbed the shit out of

796
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: the people they. Killed they left with eighty pack horses

797
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: worth of. Loot and the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian.

798
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 2: Martyrs and there's a nasty parallel with A i forgot

799
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: to put it into my script WHEN i did an

800
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 2: episode about The. Zapatistas there was A Christian pacifist indigenous

801
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: village in the LIKE i want to say eighties or

802
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: early nineties that was.

803
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: Massacred wait the seventeen, eighties, no or thee, eighties, yeah.

804
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: Whoa there was a church In chiapas in Southeastern mexico

805
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: where people trying to reestablish local control attached to the

806
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: right wing government went and were, like y'all are too

807
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: rowdy or, related too close to The. Zapatistas and even

808
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 2: though they're, like, well actually we don't support them because

809
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: they're armed and we're, pacifists and they're like you're, What,

810
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: oh we could just kill you and they just killed.

811
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: Them.

812
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: OH i hate how much this happens in, history is

813
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: that pacifists get.

814
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: Massacred, yeah, yeah fuck, Fuck.

815
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: And the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian. Murdyers just.

816
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: Fitting and the Reason i'm including this is not just

817
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: As i'm, like here's a bad. THING i think it's

818
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: important to understand word of this massacre spread far and,

819
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: wide and As otter put, it my, friend who's one

820
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: of the main sources for, this if quote natives who

821
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: had done the right thing by fully Welcoming christianity and

822
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: Adopting eurocentric practices could be butchered and receive no. Justice

823
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: none of us, will. Okay and so that's the kind

824
00:41:54,239 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: of KEY i think a thing that changed in acts

825
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: attitudes around like how are we going to relate with The.

826
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: Americans one guy who did this massacre was a close

827
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: friend Of George. Washington his name Was William. Crawford everyone

828
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: in THE us government maintained, like, no our Guy crawford wasn't,

829
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: there because this was actually beyond the, Pale like Some

830
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: americans were, like, oh we should have done.

831
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: That, WELL i love to hear what colonists views as

832
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: the line.

833
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: Totally, okay, yeah not so far past the life that

834
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: they'll do anything about.

835
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: It but you, know like, no but they're, like but

836
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: we'll just pretend he wasn't.

837
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: There, yeah what's funny is that a little bit more,

838
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: recently historians have records of everyone who got paid to be,

839
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: there And William crawford is on that. List so whether

840
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: or not he was, there he was paid.

841
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: To be there profited From. Okay.

842
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: Yeah and the reason that people want to claim that

843
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: he wasn't there is because those, terrible, awful Barbarous indigenous.

844
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: PEOPLE a couple months, Later William crawford was off to

845
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: raid moral And nape folks and kill, them and a

846
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: whole coalition Of indigenous folks and a Few british allies

847
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: just fucked them all up and they Captured William. Crawford

848
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: The lenape put him on trial for the. Massacre he

849
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: was found guilty and they killed. Him but it's like

850
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: and he was burned, alive which is probably, true and fuck.

851
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 2: HIM i don't.

852
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: Care but, yeah it's, like.

853
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: What do you think make him?

854
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: Do?

855
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, yeah that's what they got for. You the

856
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 2: story of a woman stuck in an impossible, situation who

857
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: lived a fucking badass life and for so, long and who,

858
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 2: learned like so many people had to, learn that you

859
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 2: just shouldn't fucking trust colonial. Governments.

860
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah it's a. TRAGEDY i, mean it's it's an oversimplification to.

861
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: Say it's like she lived long enough to become a

862
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: villain to her own people and then to still die

863
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: tragically in the way that she.

864
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: Did and kind of like learned she learned the danger

865
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: of doing. That they came and they cut off her,

866
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: fingers killed her, husband and then she probably died in,

867
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: jail you, know and it's like she kind of learned her.

868
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: Lesson i'm not trying to be, like.

869
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: Oh she got what YOU i, mean just like it's

870
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: hard because these histories exist but are obscured so frequently

871
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: it becomes hard to learn from history that is being

872
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: kept from. You.

873
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah because there's still there's so many holes in

874
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 2: this story and there's like so much mythmaking done around

875
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: her That i'm, LIKE i don't, know you. Know and

876
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: also it's just like hero making is always. COMPLICATED i don't.

877
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: Know i'm, like when she's in her forties and fifties

878
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: leading like in a pretty fucking righteous war against the,

879
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: empire like she's pretty fucking. Cool. YEAH i want to

880
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: shout Out otter again for turning me onto the story

881
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: and providing the. Notes AND i want to tell everyone

882
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: that if you're into this kind of. History you should

883
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: check out their blog on, substack which is Called greetings

884
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: From Sundown ohio Or sundownohio dot substack dot com and

885
00:44:49,200 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: A Happy Thanksgiving. Day killjoy strikes. Again this is going

886
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: to be something that's going to be sitting in my

887
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: head and for Weeks i'm gonna be, LIKE i told

888
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 2: this story. Wrong BUT i don't know How i'll be

889
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: convinced of.

890
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: That you're so amazing at your, job because it's like

891
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 1: you're given a you, know distinct also high, stakes also

892
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: difficult to research by design that not enough people are talking.

893
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: About LIKE i don't know how you do. IT i

894
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 1: don't know how you do. IT i didn't know about

895
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: most of this, histories BUT i thought you did a great.

896
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: Job oh, THANKS i think you're just.

897
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: Amazing it's, hard you, Know and it's LIKE i, know

898
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 2: on some level every now and Then i'm, LIKE i

899
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: shouldn't really be using my podcast to like sit and

900
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: make my moral judgments on the. History and Then i'm, like,

901
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: WELL i want people to only accept What i'm saying

902
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 2: if they resonate with, it, right you, Know and Like

903
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: i'm still trying really hard TO i just try and

904
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: be upfront about my, biases but this one just has

905
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: me confused and sad and angry and, like you, know

906
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: just like it's just really sitting in that thought like

907
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 2: this changes a little bit about HOW i, think just

908
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: like sitting there trying to think through these people in

909
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: these impossible, situations and like IT'S.

910
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: I, felt at least as you were sharing this history

911
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: that like you can feel that like here is like

912
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 1: this woman who's been putting this impossible situation and she's

913
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: just hoping this is the right. Thing, yeah it doesn't

914
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: seem like any of these choices are made to, personally you,

915
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: know enrich her self. Personally it's like we're taking a

916
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: gamble by trusting the least trustworthy people maybe on the

917
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: planet right, now to see if it will save. Us

918
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: and of course it. Doesn't but like.

919
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: But neither would have fighting and right and she just

920
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: she can't look back from history and say, like, ah,

921
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: well of course this was the right, thing you, know exactly.

922
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: Exactly it's just it's it's. Tragic thank you for telling

923
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: me about. Her at the end of the, DAY i

924
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,479
Speaker 1: really hope she was six' six me tim be, Cold

925
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 1: COMFORT but i really wish that she was, Six, six.

926
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: Yeah totally and everyone was just fucking terrified, of her,

927
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: and like there's this whole THING that i only kind

928
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: of hinted that where, it's like it's possible that the

929
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 2: reason that she stopped being a war chief to a

930
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: lot of people was Because the americans wouldn't fuck with

931
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: a woman who is, they like wouldn't coordinate with. A woman. You,

932
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: know anyway you got anything you want?

933
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: To, Plug YEAH so i didn't think to plug this

934
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 1: for the, first episode but this week On The, bechdel

935
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: Cast Our Intersectional feminis, movie podcast we are re releasing

936
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: an episode with one of our, Dear Friends, jess merwin

937
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: On a canadian Indigenous movie Rhymes For, young gruls which

938
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: if you haven't, seen it you should check. It out

939
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: it is a story told from the perspective of a,

940
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: teenage girl takes place on A mick, mock reservation and

941
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: it is the revenge story that revolves around. Reservation schools oh.

942
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: Fuck him check out the movie and then check out.

943
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: The episode you want To hear jess as an incredible

944
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: guest and an, Incredible artist so check.

945
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: It out. Fuck you THE thing i want to plug

946
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 2: is that anti colonial resistance is real, and ongoing and

947
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: the people that even are in, this story like the

948
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: peoples that we're, talking about, still here and, you know

949
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: five hundred years is a very, long time but it's

950
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 2: not an infinitely. Long time and it also isn't all

951
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: like People teach, american history even sometimes Leftist teach american

952
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: history like the fight is over and. It's not and,

953
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: so yeah but to, carry yourselves be good to, each

954
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: other and see y'all.

955
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: Next Week Cool People Who Did cool stuff is a

956
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,479
Speaker 1: production Of Fool. Zone media for more podcasts And Cool,

957
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: zone media visit Our website folezonemedia, dot com or check

958
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: us OUT On I, heard, Radio app I'm, a podcast

959
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: or wherever you get.

960
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: Your podcasts