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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hey, there are odd lots listeners. This is Tracy Alloway

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Speaker 2: and Joe.

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Speaker 3: Why isn't thal?

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Speaker 4: We are very.

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Speaker 2: Pleased to bring you a live recording of the podcast

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Speaker 2: that was part of Bloomberg invest that's our flagship investment

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Speaker 2: conference over here at Bloomberg. And we truly had the

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Speaker 2: perfect guest, someone I've wanted to interview for a very

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Speaker 2: long time, never got the chance. It is, of course,

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Speaker 2: the former CEO of Coleman Sachs Lloyd Blankfine. Take a listen, Joe,

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Speaker 2: I have a confession to make.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, go on.

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Speaker 2: This is probably the most nervous I've ever been for

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Speaker 2: an adlots episode.

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Speaker 5: Are you for real? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why, and actually the reason why

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Speaker 2: you'll know because you want to do the first time

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Speaker 2: Joe and I ever met Lloyd blank Fine in person

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Speaker 2: was at a sort of media round table, and for

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Speaker 2: some reason I felt it incumbent upon myself to tell

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Speaker 2: a joke.

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Speaker 5: We were late too, Oh, I was you came in late?

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Speaker 2: All right? I forgot that part. I like that I

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Speaker 2: told a joke to try to, you know, make it up.

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Speaker 2: I guess probably the joke was at Goldman's expense, at

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Speaker 2: which point Lloyd leaned forward on the table and he said,

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Speaker 2: let me tell you how I would have made that

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Speaker 2: joke funny. And the worst part was he then made

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Speaker 2: a very very good joke that was a lot funnier

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Speaker 2: than what I had just said.

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Speaker 4: I think I said, you're supposed to you should put

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Speaker 4: the punchline at the end, not at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: That's right, We can we actually talk about what the

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Speaker 3: joke was, the context of the joke, because I remember

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Speaker 3: it well.

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Speaker 2: Go on.

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Speaker 3: So the whole reason that the media roundtable happened was

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Speaker 3: that apparently Lloyd was supposed to be in China for

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Speaker 3: some reason, and something happened like someone from the UK

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Speaker 3: was there and Lloyd's schedule got changed, and so they

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Speaker 3: at the last second they're like, oh, maybe some reporters

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Speaker 3: will bring in and that The joke that Tracy made

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Speaker 3: was something about having to be like, oh, were you

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Speaker 3: going to go there to recruit princelings for Goldman's Sex,

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Speaker 3: which at the time was you know, one of those scandals.

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Speaker 2: I swear it was better than that, but that was the.

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Speaker 5: Theme of the joke. It was a Goldman's expense.

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Speaker 2: All right, So we all learned our lesson, which is

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Speaker 2: don't try to be funnier than Lloyd because he'll beat

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Speaker 2: you at it every time. But Lloyd, congratulations on the book.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Very exciting to be speaking with you. One thing I

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Speaker 2: learned from the book is that you're spending your time

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Speaker 2: trading now. And when I read that, I sort of

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Speaker 2: had a vision of you on your phone on Robin

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Speaker 2: Hood trading like zero day options or something like that.

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Speaker 2: What are you actually trading and where.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm sort of committed to Goldman, I would be

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Speaker 4: on Robin History now. To me, that's one of the

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Speaker 4: occupational hazards of my prior life is that I watch

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Speaker 4: markets all the time. I watch markets at night while

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Speaker 4: I'm asleep, and so I know the price of everything

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Speaker 4: all the time, and I trade. But it's not like

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Speaker 4: when you say I'm spending you spend your time trading, No,

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Speaker 4: it's just background noise. I'm having a conversation in my

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Speaker 4: life with people like you know, hanging around with Sometimes

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Speaker 4: in business it is not continued to be rude that

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Speaker 4: if you're talking to somebody, you're not looking at them

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Speaker 4: but looking at a screen or a phone or something

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Speaker 4: like that. That's that's kind of okay. So it's like

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Speaker 4: work Joe, so trade doing that. When somebody says what

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Speaker 4: percentage of your time? Your time, it's like listening to music.

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Speaker 4: You can listen to music while you're doing something else,

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Speaker 4: so it adds up to more than one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: What are you I'm not we're not here for stock recommendations,

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Speaker 3: but like what's interesting in markets and such that you

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Speaker 3: feel compelled to click buttons and try to anticipate move Well.

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Speaker 4: I was always kind of a mac I mean, came

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Speaker 4: up through what we call them, you know, the macro markets,

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Speaker 4: large things, interest rates, you know, government policy, fiscal you know,

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Speaker 4: the sort of stuff that kind of moves all assets together.

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Speaker 4: Although there's all these differences. So that's my background. But

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Speaker 4: the themes, I mean, everybody now is in the is

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Speaker 4: in tech because if you weren't in tech, you'd be

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Speaker 4: bankrupt because you'd be wrong for all this time. So

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Speaker 4: everybody is given how the markets have moved sort of

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Speaker 4: consistently for a very long time. I could tell you

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Speaker 4: what everybody is kind of in, and of course I

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Speaker 4: could tell you who's getting hurt at any given part

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Speaker 4: when it gets upset for a day. But I'm in

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Speaker 4: probably things that wouldn't surprise you. But maybe the biggest

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Speaker 4: surprise is that I'm all in, you know, so like

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Speaker 4: I'm always one hundred percent in equities, now risk assets,

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Speaker 4: that's what you say, risk risky assets.

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Speaker 2: Well, so after you retired from Goldman, some people were

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Speaker 2: surprised that you didn't choose to go into politics, like

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Speaker 2: some of your peers. Yeah, well, explain that, like why

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Speaker 2: did you you took a proper break when you left Goldman.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, let me tell you. If somebody gave me

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Speaker 4: something overwhelmingly interesting and fun, I might have done it.

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Speaker 4: Five of my last six predecessors either went into the cabinet,

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Speaker 4: except for John Corzon, who became Senate of New Jersey.

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Speaker 4: But you know, you know, Bob Rubin and Hang Pauls

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Speaker 4: and Treasury secretaries and whatnot. I came out in the

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Speaker 4: I stopped in twenty eight and end of two thousand,

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Speaker 4: so the second half of Trump one, the beginning of

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Speaker 4: Trump one, you know, the economic team was Gary Khane

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Speaker 4: and Steven Nutch and all ex Goldman. So I think

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Speaker 4: we had had enough of that, and I certainly didn't

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Speaker 4: want I didn't want to like add myself to the

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Speaker 4: list at that point, and so kind of drifted on.

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Speaker 4: Then I drifted through COVID, and I say, you know,

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Speaker 4: I kind of like this, you know, not sending an alarm

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Speaker 4: clock in the morning and Saturday afternoon, having lunch with people,

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Speaker 4: and not having to go to the airport on a

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Speaker 4: Saturday afternoon so I could get to Beijing first thing

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Speaker 4: Monday morning. And so it's easy to get used to sloth.

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Speaker 3: So here's the thing I get not taking some big

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Speaker 3: job after retirement, Like I totally get that. I get

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Speaker 3: wanting to trade and that sounds like stimulating and intellectually,

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Speaker 3: you know, interesting and fun and so forth.

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Speaker 5: Here's what I don't get. Why don't you tweet more?

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Speaker 3: And the reason I asked that is like, because like

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Speaker 3: I'm addicted to posting, and a lot of people in

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Speaker 3: your shoes or at your level, you fuel this impulse

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Speaker 3: to like always weigh in on everything, and.

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Speaker 5: Twitter is a graduate to I know, but number that much.

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Speaker 5: And what I want to know is like.

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Speaker 4: No, I was I was fighting with people. I was

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Speaker 4: fighting with people that had subpoena power.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so how resist the temptation to keep doing it

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Speaker 3: because I would like to know how to post less.

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Speaker 3: So how do you resist the urge to chime in

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Speaker 3: on everything.

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Speaker 4: I was in the risk management business, and so the

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Speaker 4: risk reward a certain things. So, for example, retired. When

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Speaker 4: things are going badly, you can't leave my job. And

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Speaker 4: by the way, we had the Crisis of the century

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Speaker 4: every four years, and most of the time that accused

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Speaker 4: us of and probably you accused us of causing it falsely.

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Speaker 2: Of course I did write a few those.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I'm sure I pretend to have forgotten that. But

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Speaker 4: when things are going well, you know, when things going badly,

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Speaker 4: you can't leave. When things are going well, you don't

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Speaker 4: want to leave, which is why in my line of work,

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Speaker 4: everybody leaves in distress. You get fire, something comes over,

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Speaker 4: the world blows up, you don't do well, you have

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Speaker 4: you lose. Something happened, and I didn't do that. I

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Speaker 4: left on my own steam, and I quit tweeting. I

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Speaker 4: still tweet very occasionally, but I mostly quit tweeting before

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Speaker 4: I got canceled, which is very unreal impressive because most

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Speaker 4: people quit after they most people most people get quit,

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Speaker 4: they don't quit on their own.

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Speaker 3: And you chalk that up to your natural risk management

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Speaker 3: knowledge and intuitions. You're like, you know what, I'm just

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Speaker 3: gonna I'm not gonna do it until the end when

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Speaker 3: you're not going to.

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Speaker 4: Go In general, chalk it up to my normal anxiety

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Speaker 4: and my not wanting to, you know, get killed. So

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Speaker 4: cowardice you might call, you know, just sensible. Well, it's sensibile, sense, sensibility,

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Speaker 4: but really most of that stuff. And you know, because

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Speaker 4: I was doing things on the line, I would fight

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Speaker 4: with you know, Lizabeth Warren, and you know, largely because

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Speaker 4: they would say something. Mostly I was responding, and I

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Speaker 4: kind of liked it. And the problem is you get

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Speaker 4: a good reaction something, you know, good reaction, and then

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Speaker 4: you start to feel clever, and when you start to

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Speaker 4: feel clever, that's when you're going to get killed because

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Speaker 4: then you think, gee, this is irresistible. And then somebody

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Speaker 4: might say, well, they're not going to like that. And

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Speaker 4: I said, how can I resist? It's so clever? And

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Speaker 4: so guess what, I found it resistible? So I stopped impresent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just takes one bad tweet. So when I

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Speaker 2: think about your career, and you know, I've read the

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Speaker 2: whole book, so I know your career trajectory fairly well.

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Speaker 2: At this point. I kind of think of it as

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Speaker 2: synonymous with globalization, and you know, you wrote the sort

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Speaker 2: of wave of international expansion, and then you retired in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and it turned out twenty eighteen twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: was sort of the end of that globalization era.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the world is a little less flat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you look back on that time, do you

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Speaker 2: think that was a blip? Was that an unusual circumstance

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Speaker 2: that's never going to be repeated?

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Speaker 4: When I start, you know, when sentiment changes, it changes

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Speaker 4: your memory of what you used to think. It's kind

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Speaker 4: of a weird thing. So nobody can remember being friends

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Speaker 4: with Russia now, but we were when I started. Did

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Speaker 4: you couldn't think of going to Russia? I remember I

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Speaker 4: once my early trips. I was in the commodities business. Also,

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Speaker 4: I started in the commodities business. I used to go

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Speaker 4: to Russia in the early eighties literally like nineteen eighty

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Speaker 4: two and nineteen eighty three, middle of the Cold War.

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Speaker 4: And I remember when the plane would take off and

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Speaker 4: you wouldn't go directly go to switch you know, going

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Speaker 4: the end, people start applauding the plane lifted off. You

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Speaker 4: couldn't imagine Russia being normal, like a place to do business.

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Speaker 4: Then in the go go years after the fall of

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Speaker 4: the Iron Curtain, you'd go there and it was like

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Speaker 4: the what it was capitalism on steroids, and you thought

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Speaker 4: that that was going to endure, and now you know

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Speaker 4: it reversed again. Same thing with China, when you know,

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Speaker 4: we invested a lot of time. I personally invested a

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Speaker 4: lot of time and effort, and in a your brother,

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Speaker 4: we still have a big business in China, but it's

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Speaker 4: you know, as imagine I've strained now it's very hard

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Speaker 4: to do business. We had a lot of joint ventures

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Speaker 4: that can't be done because it's a Chinese you know,

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Speaker 4: too much of a Chinese association for it. But when

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Speaker 4: I started, you couldn't have gone. Then for a long

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Speaker 4: time you thought we were growing into each other, and

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Speaker 4: then you know, now we hit a speed up. The

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Speaker 4: point is there are cycles to everything. It's not a

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Speaker 4: question of something being blipped. Everything is a blip and

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Speaker 4: everything gets a little bit undone. I think I would

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Speaker 4: have said, and I still believe. I think the tendency

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Speaker 4: is for things to improve, to get better. You know

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Speaker 4: what happened what you know, globalization. It's not just the

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Speaker 4: rivalries or the polarization of the East and the West.

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Speaker 4: The global financial crisis contributed to that because what happened was,

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Speaker 4: you know, there was the central banks of the world

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Speaker 4: and the governments of the world were coordinating their policies.

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Speaker 4: And then when it hit the fan. In a digital

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Speaker 4: world where nothing really moves except electrons and digital notations,

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Speaker 4: it suddenly became important to each government where an institution's

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Speaker 4: assets were. If the assets were in the United The

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Speaker 4: US Central Bank, the FED was lending money, for example,

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Speaker 4: to the US affiliate of Deutsche Bank, and they were

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Speaker 4: lending to Deutsche Bank multiples of the assets that Deutsche

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Speaker 4: Bank had subject to the US because most of their

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Speaker 4: assets were Germany. All of a sudden, people realize that,

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Speaker 4: and it became very nineteenth century. It became where are

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Speaker 4: the assets like physically, as if they were really physical

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Speaker 4: assets as opposed to but assets have a location. And

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Speaker 4: they discovered that similarly, I mean you can go case

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Speaker 4: by data point by data point COVID. It made a

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Speaker 4: real difference who where they were manufacturing the vaccines for

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Speaker 4: who got them first or the PPE and all this

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Speaker 4: other stuff, and so now of course that's been you know,

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Speaker 4: emphasized now because now it's you know, America first, and

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Speaker 4: I'm sure, you know, I don't speak German, but i'm

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Speaker 4: sure in Germany it's Germany first, and it's like that.

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Speaker 4: But that also will evolve, and that's that cycle will

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Speaker 4: go again, because you know, does the world It turns

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Speaker 4: out when when we started to globalize, you say, does

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Speaker 4: Europe need fourteen battery makers? Shouldn't they just have three

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Speaker 4: for the whole thing? And then it became very important

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Speaker 4: that you had a battery make if it's strategic in

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Speaker 4: your own country, and supply chains another things that make

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Speaker 4: people less global.

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Speaker 3: When you think about that time, the FED opening up

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Speaker 3: swap lines with central banks all around the world, banks

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Speaker 3: getting support even if they're not necessarily primarily domiciled in

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Speaker 3: the US, do you think that that would even be

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Speaker 3: possible today in the current media environment because it was

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Speaker 3: controversial then what was going on.

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Speaker 4: First of all, you have to do what you have

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Speaker 4: to do, So would you think it would be possible

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Speaker 4: to an America first presidency where we're not going to

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Speaker 4: go into wars? Is this possible? But of course, you know,

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Speaker 4: he felt you know, obviously he felt there was some

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Speaker 4: compulsion to do it. People disagree, but that's certainly how

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Speaker 4: he's representing it. So you do what you have to do.

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Speaker 4: If we had a cry is like that, you would

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Speaker 4: have to sort out the banking system. Now you can

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Speaker 4: want to bring them up and trial and kill them.

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Speaker 4: You do whatever you want to do it. But at

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Speaker 4: the end of the day, governments don't lend money to people,

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Speaker 4: and central banks don't lend money to people. The transmission

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Speaker 4: for economic policy and for monetary policy and getting money

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Speaker 4: out into the public is the banking system. And if

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Speaker 4: the banks are distressed, if you gave them money, they

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Speaker 4: husband that money to increase their reserves so they could

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Speaker 4: be solvent. And in fact they have to do that,

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Speaker 4: the regulation requires that they do that. And so it's

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Speaker 4: very very hard to get money and resources and get

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Speaker 4: people going and provide that stimulus to the general public

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Speaker 4: with a distressed banking system, which is why the big

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Speaker 4: recession was a big recession because it was very hard

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Speaker 4: to get over. Today, if we had bad employment, if

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Speaker 4: growth went down, and we weren't particular worried about inflation,

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Speaker 4: it'd be no problem to stimulate the economy, you take

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Speaker 4: rates down, fiscal spending, the banks are in good shape.

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Speaker 4: If the banks are in bad shape, that's very hard

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 2: I mean, since we're talking sort of hypothetical crisis scenarios,

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Speaker 2: one of the things we sometimes hear from people is

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Speaker 2: because the US government is very polarized at the moment,

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Speaker 2: maybe some people would say feels a little bit disorganized

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Speaker 2: at times. If we had a financial crisis, the response

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Speaker 2: would be a lot less direct or a lot less

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Speaker 2: swift than what we saw in two thousand and eight

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Speaker 2: when we had ex Golmannites like Hank Paulson at the

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Speaker 2: Helm or Guythner for that matter. What's your sense of

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Speaker 2: how the current administration would react to something like that.

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Speaker 4: I've said this, and you know, you don't know, nobody

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Speaker 4: knows anything, But my guess is they would be flee

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Speaker 4: to footing. They would do because you have to do

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Speaker 4: what you have to do. They would hate, Look, they

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Speaker 4: would hate if that had to happen hypothetically, they would

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Speaker 4: hate it. They hated it in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 4: really hated it, really really fifteen more relies hated it.

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Speaker 4: But we would look, you know, staring at not so

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Speaker 4: much staring at the abyss like it would have gone.

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Speaker 4: But my guess, and everyone's always asking it, I think

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Speaker 4: there was like like a fifteen seventy fifteen to twenty

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Speaker 4: percent chance that it could have really have gone off

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Speaker 4: the rails and that we really would have had a

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Speaker 4: crisis that would have taken a very long time, because

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Speaker 4: what happens is in a kind of crisis where there's credit,

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Speaker 4: a credit crisis, which is what it was, a credit crisis.

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Speaker 4: We owe each other money. There's a daisy chain of money.

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Speaker 4: You bought something from him, he bought it from me,

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Speaker 4: and that goes around in a credit where you don't

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Speaker 4: know the sovereignty of your counterpart. You're not going to

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Speaker 4: pay me until I pay you, so you're waiting. But

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Speaker 4: I can't pay him unless I get my money from you.

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Speaker 4: So I'm stuck and he's stuck, and he's stuck and

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Speaker 4: he's stuck. So the system is frozen. You need somebody

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Speaker 4: with a big back sheet, and it's usually a government

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Speaker 4: to say we will for this short term cover it,

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Speaker 4: so all of you will get paid. Now go in.

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Speaker 4: Generally you don't have to use the money. The money

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Speaker 4: comes back because it's just insecurity that drives that, and

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Speaker 4: I think the government would have to do that. They'd

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Speaker 4: hate it, but would have to do that. And by

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Speaker 4: the way, is that going to happen again? You know? Fortunately,

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Speaker 4: you know it was a once in eighty year storm.

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Speaker 4: But you know, I don't think I'm going to see

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Speaker 4: the next one. But you know these things, You know,

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Speaker 4: when you get through a crisis like that, everyone says,

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Speaker 4: let's ensure we never have another crisis again. And you

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Speaker 4: know how you can do that. You can turn yourself

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Speaker 4: into a treasury bill. You can turn you and even

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Speaker 4: a treasure bill has risk because you're taking a risk

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Speaker 4: with the value that the value of the dollar doesn't

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Speaker 4: get inflated away and retains its purchasing power. If you

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Speaker 4: take zero out risk, you will have zero progress and

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Speaker 4: zero growth. And so what happens is and again it's

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Speaker 4: a cycle to things. You come out of that and

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Speaker 4: you say never never, never never. You implement very very

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Speaker 4: tough protocols and regulations and things, and over time you

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Speaker 4: start to think, you know, it'll be a lot growth here,

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Speaker 4: if there was more here's a good word, it'd be

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Speaker 4: a lot growth here. It wouldn't be great if banks

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Speaker 4: did mortgages again, it wouldn't it be great if you

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Speaker 4: didn't have to put down thirty percent to get them

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Speaker 4: mary and blah blah blah. And it relaxes that time,

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Speaker 4: memories start to dim and it gets to a point

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Speaker 4: and maybe it gets past the point where it should

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Speaker 4: and the cycle resumes, And you say, how could that

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Speaker 4: have happened again so soon? It's only been eighty.

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Speaker 5: Years, so one area.

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Speaker 3: And you've commented on this a little bit in your

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Speaker 3: little media tour over the last several days weeks. But

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Speaker 3: you know, we've had a lot of stress in private assets,

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Speaker 3: private credit in particular, some of the big companies having

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Speaker 3: issue all kinds of issues. It's one thing for it

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Speaker 3: to be bad, and maybe it's one thing for people

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Speaker 3: to lose money. Is there anything about the structure though,

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Speaker 3: that could get systemic where it be come to something

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Speaker 3: beyond just investors lost money because they may better?

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, talking about credit, I think the

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Speaker 4: general issue is ill liquid liquid stuff. It could be

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Speaker 4: private equity and you know, like everything, like everything else

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Speaker 4: that balloons into a crisis. Of course, I don't think

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Speaker 4: it's going to be systemic. No one does. No one

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Speaker 4: thought because if everyone thought it would be systemic. You know,

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Speaker 4: you'd have fixed it or we would have done something

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Speaker 4: about it before it got to that point. You're always surprised.

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Speaker 4: Even the people who you think are in the inside

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Speaker 4: who should know better, they're also surprised too. I don't know,

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Speaker 4: you know, the private credit and other private assets. I

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Speaker 4: think they're generally, of course, by by definition they don't

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Speaker 4: trade publicly, so they're less liquid and probably maybe sometimes illiquid,

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Speaker 4: and consequently very hard to price. So when you have

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Speaker 4: your asset and you look at your account and you

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Speaker 4: own this and you get a mark to market, is

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Speaker 4: it reliable? Is it where you can sell it? There

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Speaker 4: are a lot of private assets on people's balance yet

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Speaker 4: that take private equity. We've just gone through a period

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Speaker 4: of time where we've had record equity prices in a

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Speaker 4: world that's a wash with liquidity, the best financing market,

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Speaker 4: and they're still in an accumulation of assets on the balance

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Speaker 4: sheet of companies that are in the business of selling

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Speaker 4: the assets they invest in. Yet it hasn't happened, so

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Speaker 4: maybe they're not marked for sale really to be done,

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Speaker 4: So that could be an issue. In general, I'd say

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Speaker 4: one of the things now there's nothing wrong with private credit,

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Speaker 4: private asset, private equity, as long as the returns, the

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Speaker 4: expected returns, compensate you for the ill liquidity, and the

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Speaker 4: people you're communicating to understand the illiquidity and the consequence

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Speaker 4: of the illiquity to them, that has to be made clear.

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Speaker 4: I'm not always sure that it is, and certainly if

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Speaker 4: it goes wrong, no one will remember having been told that,

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Speaker 4: so I would say, and taking account of that, I

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Speaker 4: would say, a particular private asset, whether it's credit or

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Speaker 4: private equity, is no different in your hand, in an

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Speaker 4: individual's hands, or an institution hand, but the consequence of

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Speaker 4: it going badly is much worse if it's individual hands.

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Speaker 4: Why is that because, I would say, the official sector

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Speaker 4: can watch institutions, very high net worth individuals lose money

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Speaker 4: and not be particularly perturbed about that. But when it

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Speaker 4: goes to consumers and retails other names for which are

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Speaker 4: citizens and taxpayers and voters the public, the official sector

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Speaker 4: gets very perturbed. So one of the comments I made

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Speaker 4: is without applying whether these are good, or whether the

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Speaker 4: marks are correct, or whether the illiquidity premium you're getting

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Speaker 4: is adequate or not, I just said, you know, be

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Speaker 4: careful some of these firms. People wh run these firms

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Speaker 4: have fabulous lives, do very well for a long time,

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Speaker 4: have boats and everything, and great hat in multiple houses.

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Speaker 4: Have some trepidation about extending your business from institutions into

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Speaker 4: four to one k's people ets, people who are less

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Speaker 4: than the highest net worth individuals, and by the way,

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Speaker 4: adjacent insurance companies, which is sort of one order away

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Speaker 4: from individuals, because insurance companies ensure real people and need

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Speaker 4: to be solvent. So that's something that I'd say is

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Speaker 4: happening to It's not just the nature of the assets

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Speaker 4: but where some of these assets are being put now.

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Speaker 2: So I take the point about retail investors and private credit,

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Speaker 2: but just putting your old Goldman Sachs CEO hat on again.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things Goldman was famous for

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Speaker 2: was it's very dynamic risk management at the time, and

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Speaker 2: so I'm very curious walk us through in excruciating detail,

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Speaker 2: how you, as CEO of Goldman Sachs, would be managing

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Speaker 2: private credit risk at the moment on a day to

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Speaker 2: day basis for something that you know might be marked

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Speaker 2: to market quarter.

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Speaker 4: Only risk that we had well balance, Yes.

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Speaker 2: What style of risk managements.

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Speaker 4: I mean in the financial price everyone's focused on mortgages.

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00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 4: Some of the biggest risks that we had were just

435
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 4: loan commitments to come. You know, we're we have a

436
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 4: very big with the biggest mn A house, so we

437
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 4: have very big mem and a franchise, which means that

438
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 4: if you do an M and A deal, you commit

439
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 4: to the financing. So we had a lot of financing

440
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 4: commitments outstanding. That was sort of eye opening at the

441
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 4: time because we had commitments to make loans, which, believe me,

442
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 4: at the time, you know, when things are going crazy,

443
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 4: it's the last thing you want to do is do then,

444
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 4: So that we had to manage those risks. So you know,

445
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 4: what do we do. We make sure in the lead

446
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 4: up to the press. You know, once something is happening,

447
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 4: you know, it's pretty late to start doing stuff when

448
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 4: everybody's trying to get out of the same stuff. We

449
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 4: sort of always knew it. We we had a you know,

450
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: a real abiding respect for reality. So we would always

451
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 4: try to mark stuff to market and very assigiously. We

452
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 4: had a separate group. Half the firm would take risk

453
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 4: and the half would market would do the marks, and

454
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 4: sometimes the risk takers would disagree and say, oh, that

455
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 4: mark is too concertive. I think this s assets worth more,

456
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 4: and we'd say, fine, I'm sure you're right. Go sell

457
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 4: something and prove that your mark is better than their market,

458
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 4: that it's worth more. We would do that religious I mean,

459
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 4: we were firm on that. And then when things started

460
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: to get bad, when people couldn't sell things for where

461
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 4: they thought it was, we started marking it lower. And

462
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 4: when that started to happen, we didn't necessarily think we

463
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 4: didn't have a view that was going to happen. We

464
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 4: went into risk management mode. So it didn't matter whether

465
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 4: it was bullish or bearish. Stuff is happening, and so

466
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 4: we just put out the word stay close to home.

467
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 4: So we have to take risk. People come to us

468
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 4: to buy from them what they want to sell, to

469
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 4: sell to them what they want to buy. We get

470
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: caught in risk taking situations from our general activities for

471
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 4: our clients. But whenever we were veering too much in

472
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 4: one direction, getting too long and getting too short, we

473
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 4: would stop until there was another side to it and

474
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 4: we would source the other side. So, I mean, the

475
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 4: key for us was not reacting crazily when it started

476
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 4: to go badly. But what we did in the lead up.

477
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 4: The other thing we did when we couldn't get other

478
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 4: sides to things. We bought insurance in the market, famously

479
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 4: from other banks for very little, because it was worth

480
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 4: very low. We bought insurance on triple A companies that

481
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 4: weren't turned out not to be triple A. We didn't

482
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 4: do that because they thought that, aha, these really aren't

483
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 4: triple A companies. Oh no, we thought they were triple

484
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 4: A companies. But we just didn't want to have too

485
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 4: much exposure to anything at that point. And the good

486
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 4: thing about the fact that it doesn't, you know, it

487
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 4: doesn't look like you need the insurance is that the

488
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 4: people who sell you the insurance don't charge you very

489
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 4: much because they think it's free money. And by the way,

490
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 4: we thought we were wasting money and it turned out not.

491
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 4: But that's just a discipline that you have to have

492
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 4: all the time. You can't have that discipline when it

493
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 4: looks like things are going bad. You have to have

494
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 4: those things at that discipline when things are looking good.

495
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 5: Right, That makes a lot of sense. New York City,

496
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 5: how are you feeling?

497
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: Is New York City the center of the finance world?

498
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 3: Today the same way it was fifteen thirty years ago,

499
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: and is that at risk.

500
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 4: Look, New York City is still where people come. Young

501
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 4: people come, especially to learn what to learn from their

502
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 4: colleagues and to be it around and be surrounded by

503
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 4: a good culture and a good place. And I think,

504
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 4: you know, that's why I love the book, and I

505
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 4: thought it was a brilliant book, but I thought it

506
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 4: was wrong. The world is flat. You know, you can

507
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 4: be stimulated by something that's not right. The fact of

508
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 4: the matter is, you know, you could be hooked up

509
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 4: and be living in Warsaw, which by the way, is

510
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 4: a financial community, and then and there's a lot of

511
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 4: tech people in Warsaw, but people who are smart and

512
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 4: ambitious want to be around other people who smart.

513
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 5: Did that change it all?

514
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 4: I'd say there are more podes than there were before.

515
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 4: So I think there's communities in obviously in San Francisco,

516
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 4: which is a tech community. A sub tech community is Boston,

517
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 4: which has biotech, and so there are other places that grow.

518
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 4: But I still think the highest concentration is still. People

519
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: are promoting Miami for that and there's a lot of

520
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of reasons for it, Like you

521
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 4: get to keep more of your money because there's no

522
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 4: state tax. Expensive place to live New York, by the way,

523
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: very expensive place to die. I don't know why I'm

524
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 4: thinking those dark thoughts now, but because we New York

525
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 4: has a to state tax, and even California doesn't. But

526
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: so for tax reasons and for reasons of sunshine, people

527
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 4: going there. But it's not New York. It's still New York.

528
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: You know, kind of s are you know on the

529
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 3: Miami thing? I like Miami, But why aren't you there?

530
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 5: Do you don't spend one hundred and eighty three days?

531
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: I'm I'm still New York tax payer.

532
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, why stupid? O?

533
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 4: No I do it. New York City is the greatest

534
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 4: I have. You know, my wife, you know, we have

535
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 4: kids and we have grandkids. I tell my wife from

536
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: time to time, if you really loved your kids and

537
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 4: your grandkids, you moved to Florida. And I just said, no,

538
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 4: it's still but you know, we like being around a family.

539
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: We have plenty of money, you know, and you know

540
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 4: my wife, I don't know how things running your household,

541
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 4: but you know I would say that she has full

542
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: voting control.

543
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say anything I'm a holding back

544
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: comment right now, So I just want to go back

545
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: to risks for a second. So you know, in your

546
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: book you talk a little bit about private credit, but

547
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: the one risk you highlight as the sort of big

548
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: one that worries you the most is some sort of

549
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: technological risk.

550
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 4: Like oh, I said, yeah, you know it has said

551
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 4: the world is going to end in a whim, burnout,

552
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 4: a bang. Yeah, you know, everybody's talking about Malevlande State agents,

553
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 4: you know, taking it down every time we lost stuff,

554
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 4: and we had some wonderful problems in technology. Well, every

555
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 4: once in a while there was some bad behavior and

556
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: somebody hid something for a while, but most of the

557
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 4: time it was a fat finger. Like I remember one

558
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: famous incident where somebody, Now why anybody would do this,

559
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 4: but they were they were testing some software and in

560
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 4: the software they were you know it.

561
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 6: Just said they I remember this, like somehow they were

562
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 6: selling somehow it got turned on and it sold all

563
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 6: stocks that started with an L, M, N, O or

564
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 6: P for a dollar.

565
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 4: Now, if you're going to test something, why wouldn't you

566
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 4: sell sell it for a million dollars? So nothing ever

567
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 4: gets somebody had sell it for a dollar and that

568
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 4: thing was working for about fifteen seconds and did about

569
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 4: two billion dollars you know, billion dollars and a half

570
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 4: dollars worth of transactions which you managed to get undone.

571
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 4: Mostly Yes, you know, fat finger. What's a fat finger?

572
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: That's when you hit the wrong key and somebody it

573
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 4: was like stupid, somebody put in and do it. The

574
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 4: problem with technology is you want to check things over

575
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 4: and over again. But if you build in nine checks,

576
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 4: nobody takes it seriously because I know eight other people

577
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: are gonna check it. It doesn't even solve the problem

578
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: to build in more layers of checking, because it's mind

579
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: I mean to check something where there's not a problem

580
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 4: except once every two years. Who's gonna Who's gonna sleep

581
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 4: through that? No, the world, I've said, the world is

582
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 4: getting dangerous a way. When I started out in a

583
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: trading room, every was said out loud. Somebody would say bye,

584
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 4: and you know people, and it was all noy. Today,

585
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 4: you go into a trading room and you're communicating digitally

586
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: with the person sitting next to you. In the old days,

587
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: you'd shout across the room and if somebody said something wrong,

588
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 4: a buy instead of a cell or the wrong number

589
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 4: or the wrong price, the whole room would stop and

590
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: everybody would look at that person. You would hear it.

591
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: Now nobody hears anything, and if they did, they wouldn't

592
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 4: know because no one could into it anything because a

593
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 4: lot of algorithms and a lot of technology trading. So

594
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 4: I would say with technology, technology is leverage, and leverage

595
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 4: is good when it's going the right way, and leverage

596
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 4: is bad when it's going the wrong way. And by

597
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 4: the way, that's in life. And you know, if you

598
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: had an you know prior to the age we're in

599
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: today where you know where the nuclear age where proliferating

600
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: and more atomic power and things like that, even for

601
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,719
Speaker 4: good uses. What could an industrial accident be? They think

602
00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 4: the biggest industrial accident was Bapal Union car buy eight

603
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: or nine thousand, very tragic, horrible situation. Liability for Union

604
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 4: Carbide destroyed the company. But I think eight or nine

605
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 4: thousand people died in Fukushima, the Japanese when they had

606
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 4: the tsunami and effected. If the wind had been going

607
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 4: in a different direction, you would have had millions of

608
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: people die. That's technology and progress for you. So not

609
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 4: only is their leverage, the ability to into it and

610
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: see what the problem is is less. So I just

611
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 4: postulated that, you know, we have all these safeguards, all

612
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 4: these things, all these state actors malevolently trying to cause Well, yes,

613
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 4: but you know something, I'm also worried about the mistake,

614
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 4: the fat finger, the unintentional thing, because how do you

615
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 4: build it. It's hard to build in safeguards because the

616
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 4: more safeguards that you build, the more repose and relaxed

617
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 4: you get about each one of them. And nobody can

618
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 4: find out that no one's doing there, no one's doing

619
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 4: their job.

620
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: I mean, it seems inevitable to me now that AI

621
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: is going to become more and more of banks risk

622
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: management or back office systems. Like what parts of a

623
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: bank would you feel comfortable outsourcing to everything?

624
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 4: Shy of the job I had? Okay, go on, you know,

625
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: we don't know. I mean, the greatest technologists today aren't

626
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 4: sure themselves where it'll go. But you're going to look,

627
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 4: if you think about it, are brains, We're just wiring.

628
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 4: We're just code. We're a lot of lying, We're a

629
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 4: lot a lot of lines of code, but we're just code.

630
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 4: And at some point you're crossing too judgment and reasoning,

631
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: and I'm sure will happen. I'm sure it's a lot.

632
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 4: I'm sure the people who at least until they start

633
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 4: to walk better than they walk today, the people who

634
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: garden for me, and the massage therapists and the personal

635
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 4: trainers are safe. Well man, maybe not even personal trainers,

636
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 4: but everything shy of that is just some you know.

637
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: And then we're gonna just have to and then there'll

638
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 4: be more jobs that leverage whatever stage of progress we're at.

639
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 4: You know, once upon a time, not that long ago,

640
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 4: beginning of the twentieth century, more than half the country

641
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: was involved in agriculture. Guess what. We absorb those people,

642
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: But it's not without stresses and strains. Not everybody who's

643
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 4: not everybody who's a software programmer is going to be

644
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 4: a pilates teacher, and so there'll be some stress and dislocation.

645
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: But who knows the way society is going to evolve

646
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 4: maybe you know, remember, you know, from school, you read

647
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: the Marxist ideal where everybody's gonna only have to work

648
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 4: four days a week, Marxist ideology, And who knows, maybe

649
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 4: they'll be Once upon a time there was a six

650
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: day work week even on Wall Street, people came and

651
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 4: Saturday that's when they did all the back office stuff.

652
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: And maybe we go to a three day work week.

653
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 4: Maybe we work Once upon a time it was a

654
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 4: ten hour work day. Now it's an eight hour day.

655
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 4: Maybe it goes to five. Maybe everybody just works less

656
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 4: and moans to how I have and that they have

657
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 4: to work four hours that day. So, by the way,

658
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter whether we like it or not. It's

659
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 4: going to happen. So you could spend a lot of

660
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 4: time mourning for it and regretting it, but it's going

661
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 4: to happen. But the idea that machine's going to do

662
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that we do when I started,

663
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 4: when I started on Wall Street, you know the tape

664
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: and people don't know. You know, ticker tape? What is

665
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: that ticker tape? Those are the threads that came out. Well,

666
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 4: once upon a time, that's how you communicated. You communicated

667
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 4: tickers and you couldn't get it back. So you had

668
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 4: approofreated very carefully, and you had to make sure that

669
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: the confirmation you were sending to the Central Bank of

670
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 4: China Beijing didn't go to the Central Bank of China.

671
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 4: Taiwan and you kill yourself. So I spent three hours

672
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 4: a day doing that. Nobody spends any time doing that.

673
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 4: When I practice law, you used to have to go

674
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 4: and look at every case that ever mentioned a case

675
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 4: you relied on lest it be have been overruled or criticized.

676
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: I spent days doing that. No one spends minutes doing

677
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: that today. That's progress. It's going to happen, and I

678
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: welcome that, particularly since I've already made my money and

679
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 4: I'm unemployed.

680
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: Must be nice, Joe. When I first joined Bloomberg, one

681
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 2: of my key duties was to monitor the fax machinery

682
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: just in case the Bank of Japan sent facts over.

683
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 5: They still they communicate with I believe.

684
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 2: It's been automated now.

685
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: One of the versions of the future that people talk

686
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: about is that okay Ai is gonna come. A bunch

687
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 3: of whide collar jobs are going to be eliminated, and

688
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 3: there's going to be some sort of like universal basic

689
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: income redistribution so that people can survive. But in theory

690
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 3: like that would require some taxation, and the handful of

691
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: winners of the AI world like they'd have to find

692
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 3: some way to tax their wealth. Perhaps, But this gud

693
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: I'm really interested in taxation because, like I pay, a

694
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: good chunk of my salary disappears in taxes. We had

695
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: a good year last year, so we got bonuses. Recently,

696
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: a good chunk immediately disappeared. I'm not going to like.

697
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: So now you're not a social democrat and it's fun.

698
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 3: It's like, not the end of the world. I don't

699
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 3: love it, but it's not at the end of the world.

700
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 3: It's hard for me to wrap my head around people

701
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 3: who have all the money in the world and still

702
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: optimize their lives about going to the lowest marginal tax

703
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: jurisdic Can you help No, it's you haven't done that,

704
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: but you're.

705
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: Still But I'll just say that's why they have that

706
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 4: lot of money to begin with, because that's how I

707
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: guess that's how because that's how they think. And also

708
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 4: they're competitive, fiercely competitive, and they just want to win.

709
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 4: I mean, actually it's good in a way. I'm glad

710
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 4: that the Mark Zuckerberg's and you may like or dislike

711
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 4: these names of people, but the fact is, or Elon Musk,

712
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 4: they're on the cutting edge and they're still motivated to work.

713
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: Thank goodness. I'm glad they want I'm glad there ares.

714
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: I'm glad they work. But to just extrapolate the points

715
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 4: you're making, an economic system has to do a couple

716
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 4: of things, and it has to do a lot of things,

717
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 4: but two major things. It has to create wealth, and

718
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: then it has to allocate that wealth thus created according

719
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 4: to the values of society. I think our cap our

720
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 4: system has done a pretty good job creating wealth. Nobody

721
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 4: can get out there and figure out what the new

722
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 4: thing is. And nobody's more ruthless about taking things that fail,

723
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: getting rid of them and repurposing them and getting them

724
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 4: off the balance sheet and building you know, plowing over

725
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 4: that airport that no one lands at and making it

726
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: turn it into a walmart. Nobody's better at doing that.

727
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 4: But where we have done poorly is the allocation of it,

728
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 4: the allocation of the proceeds. And that's of course where

729
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 4: a lot of the polarization that we're living through now.

730
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 4: And you know, so a variety of things, you know,

731
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 4: you have to you know, obviously progressive taxation is one

732
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 4: of them. Just building the safety net so things are

733
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 4: free and available to everything that previously you would have

734
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 4: had to pay for. So public housing has air conditioning. Now,

735
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 4: public housing when I grew up didn't have air conditioning.

736
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 4: So making life better at a base minimum. But that's

737
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 4: the task, and that's the challenge that we have to

738
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 4: do to allocate based upon values in a way that

739
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 4: doesn't dis incentivizing people from working. So at some level

740
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 4: of taxation, you may be disincentivized from working. Poor Elne

741
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 4: Musk went back to the shareholders and said, you know,

742
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: I'm only worth five hundred billion dollars because you took

743
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 4: away my options from the Tesla thing. Give them back

744
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 4: or else I'm not going to work for Tesla anymore.

745
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 4: So there and so he got it back, and so

746
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 4: now he's got that extra stimulus of billions five hundred

747
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 4: and one to seven hundred and forty nine. So people

748
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: do what they do. But by the way, I'm glad

749
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 4: he's working, and I'm glady's one of mine. And I

750
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: still can't believe those rocket ships can land in Tanis

751
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 4: so beautifully, and nobody else seems to be able to

752
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 4: do it. So bravo, keep on going. I'll give you

753
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: an extra couple of dollars if it'll help you.

754
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: You know, we started this conversation talking about how your

755
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: career trajectory kind of mirrored the rise of globalization. But

756
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: the other thing that mirrored was the rise of trading

757
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: and thick on Wall Street. I'm curious if you have

758
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: any sense nowadays what the next sort of booming business

759
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: is going to be among the investment basedes. Everything kind

760
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: of feels the same. Everything kind of feels flat, like

761
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: is there something that's going to take off.

762
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: It's not the same, but it rhymes, you know, it

763
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 4: doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. You know. Really, the last generation,

764
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 4: the you know, the cool kids in town were you know,

765
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 4: private equity and alternatives feels a little less cool the

766
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 4: last couple of days. You know, you know, it shifts.

767
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 4: But there's always you know, we're always ringing out efficiencies

768
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 4: for things, and we're always figuring out, you know, risk

769
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 4: versus reward, and so ill liquid stuff look better than

770
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: public market stuff. Then you have a liquidity event where

771
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 4: people try to sell and they get gated and it's

772
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: not working out so well, and so that goes. I

773
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 4: don't know, I think, you know, the one of the

774
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 4: things that AI can't really do is they can't take risk.

775
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 4: They could tell you, in my opinion, based upon my

776
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 4: you know, working this algorithm against this huge database, how

777
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 4: those dice would have rolled and what you know, what

778
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: percentages when you will do these simulations and stuff. But

779
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, you have to still

780
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 4: apply judgment. And if we were sitting there having a

781
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 4: conversation one hundred years ago, by the way, people one

782
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 4: hundred years from now are going to be around. I

783
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: don't know if they'll be sitting on this chair or

784
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 4: floating above ground, but they're going to be talking about

785
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 4: how primitive we were thinking that we're you know, we're

786
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 4: thinking sitting here, thinking how cool we are today and

787
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 4: how everything's up to date in Kansas City and everything

788
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 4: is good and and and and novel. But all this

789
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 4: is going to look stupid. Could you imagine they carry

790
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 4: their cell phones? Ha ha ha ha, or could you

791
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 4: imagine Yeah? I mean, but they'll but some things as

792
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 4: general principles, Oh, we are going to persist. I think

793
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 4: they'll be create, create, you know, still, people going to

794
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 4: still write music and natural you know, people will fill

795
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 4: in the gaps. If you plug in a song, it'll

796
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 4: publish another song like that. But will it do something

797
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 4: radically innovative, I don't know. It's possible. Again, brains are

798
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 4: lines of code. Maybe they'll just have more lines of

799
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 4: code and eventually do it. But I do think certain

800
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 4: things like willingness to take risk, judgment. I've known so

801
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: many brilliant people, and I've known so many people with

802
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 4: good judgment. It's amazing how infrequently those those come together

803
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 4: at the same person at the same time.

804
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: Within a given bank, you know, the push pull or

805
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: the tug between. Okay, now, banking and deal making is

806
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 3: hot or trading is hot, and it seems to go

807
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: back and forth, like, is there a direction at Goldman

808
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: or any other bank with the the next leader is

809
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 3: going to come from It come from the technology.

810
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 4: So I know yes, Well, first of all, it already

811
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 4: has in a firm like Goldman, I bet over a

812
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: third of the population of the firm, or engineers it

813
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: was when I was there, wouldn't have gotten less. It

814
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 4: wouldn't have gotten less in a short in this period

815
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 4: of time. If anything, it would have gone more in

816
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: that direction. So it already is engineering in an efficiency. Look,

817
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 4: we're in a world now where in trading and market making,

818
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 4: a lot of which is done algorithmically by machines. It's

819
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 4: a millisecond game. If you have your computers a half

820
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 4: a block closer to the main computers of the platform,

821
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 4: you win everything because in the even moving at the

822
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 4: speed of like getting there ahead is so that's already

823
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: been done. But in a firm answer, maybe I'm interping

824
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 4: your question a little bit. Differently, These things happen at

825
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 4: different times. So sometimes it's the people who put deals together.

826
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 4: Sometimes it's the people who finance deals. Sometimes the biggest,

827
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 4: coolest kids on the block, or the risk managers who

828
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 4: prevent the firm from discombobulation and manage risk so successfully

829
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 4: so the other people could do their jobs. In our organization,

830
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 4: one of the things that I think has helped Goldman

831
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 4: sacod Agent is that we still the firm is still

832
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 4: run like it's twenty six years since it was a

833
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 4: private partnership. Half of my tenures is a private in

834
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 4: a private partnership, was in a company, but we ran

835
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 4: the firm as a partnership. Everybody in the firm got

836
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 4: paid largely on based on how the firm as a

837
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: whole did, not just their narrow area. People who did

838
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 4: a good job and it wasn't their turn, or the

839
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: market was working the way that they couldn't make money,

840
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 4: got compensated well for doing a good job, even if

841
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 4: the opportunity wasn't there. And if it was an easy

842
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 4: market to make money in and they weren't doing a

843
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: good job and didn't do well, it didn't matter that

844
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 4: they did well, you know. In other words, we looked

845
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 4: at the firm as a whole. People had to look

846
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 4: out for each other. Place was run as a partnership.

847
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 4: That's very helpful. If you have a firm full of

848
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 4: people who are owners, everyone is looking around what the

849
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 4: people next to them are doing, and if they see

850
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 4: bad behavior, if something's not right, they demand information about

851
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: the whole firm, not just their narrow area, and they

852
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 4: give you opinions even when you don't want to hear it.

853
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 4: And guess what, it's a little bit slower and harder

854
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 4: to run that organization. But I think you get a

855
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 4: better you get a better outcome.

856
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: Now that the book is officially published, it's been a

857
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: whole eighteen hours I suppose, since it's been published. But

858
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: is there anything with the benefit of that eighteen hours

859
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: of daylight and reminiscence that you wish you had included

860
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: in the book, and that you left out. I want

861
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: the really.

862
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 4: Good people always telling me. I told you know, we

863
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 4: had you know, Bloomberg was very nice enough. My Bloomberg

864
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: the man, not necessarily. The company hosted an event last

865
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 4: night and I thought of a Bloomberg. There was a

866
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 4: story that I told that at the end of it,

867
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: and I could tell you the story, but please, Okay,

868
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: a million years ago, when the first Bloomberg terminals came

869
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 4: out and I was a fairly junior person, they put

870
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 4: a Bloomberg turbo in front of me that about nine

871
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 4: hundred people were supposed to share. But it was right

872
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 4: in front of me, and everybody was walking by it

873
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 4: like they were walking Remember the movie two thousand and

874
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 4: one of Space odyesstly, remember the obelist the obelisk, and

875
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 4: everyone's doing this. Everybody was doing that. And I finally

876
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 4: figured out how to use it. I put yellow pastins

877
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 4: on it with my schedule and numbers that I had

878
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 4: to look out for. In other words, I couldn't turn

879
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to turn on the machine. But

880
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 4: I was using it as a as a bulletin board.

881
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 4: And then somebody calls up and he said, Lloyd phoned

882
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 4: line so and so who is it Bloomberg? So I said,

883
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 4: I'll call call him back and said, no, no, it's

884
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 4: Bloomberg the person, not Bloomberg the company. And it was

885
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 4: Michael Bloomberg. And he calls me and he called up

886
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 4: and I get on the phone and he said, I

887
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 4: noticed you had we noticed you haven't turned on your machine.

888
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 4: And I said, oh my god, where's the camera? I said, well,

889
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 4: we could tell dig and I said and I said, well,

890
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 4: and so you're calling me and he goes, oh, no,

891
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 4: we do the way here. And I don't know if

892
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 4: they do it today, but in early Bloomberg he had

893
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 4: all the senior people in the organization. Every day they

894
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: had to call five customers each one and call them

895
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 4: and discuss. And I said, I said, you know, wow,

896
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 4: I promise I'll turn on machine. Probably about two years

897
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: later I figured out how to do it. But I'll

898
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 4: turn on the machine. But I said, isn't that a

899
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: very in a few of your time, because here you

900
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 4: are calling me and I wasn't a senior guys, And

901
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 4: he goes, no, no, we learn a lot about the business.

902
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 4: I've realized now that was a very stupid comment, because

903
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 4: here I am, first of all, everybody on our floor

904
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 4: knew that Mike had called, and that he cared. The

905
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 4: guy whose name was on the door cared about whether

906
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 4: we're using or not, and not only laterally across that

907
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 4: dimension everybody knew. But here I am, thirty five years

908
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 4: later telling the story, and so now you're hearing about it.

909
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 4: That was a very good use of three minutes of

910
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 4: Michael Bloomberg, that I'm telling that story about his care

911
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 4: and then so to me, I know how Bloomberg got built,

912
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 4: and so that was a lesson I learned. So I

913
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 4: told that story and then I said, you know, Mike,

914
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 4: this book is so good and has so many good

915
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 4: stories that that one didn't even make it in the book.

916
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 4: It's on the cutting room floor. If it sells well,

917
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 4: maybe volume two or volume three.

918
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 5: Well, we went a couple of minutes over, but that

919
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 5: it was a good story.

920
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 2: That was a good for both the book and for Bloomberg.

921
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 5: So thank you, I know, my audience, Lloyd blank Fine,

922
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 5: thank you so much.

923
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 4: Thanks very much.

924
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: That was our conversation with former Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfine,

925
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 2: recorded live on March third at Bloomberg invest I'm Tracy Alloway,

926
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: you can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

927
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 3: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart,

928
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 3: follow Lloyd Blankfine He's at Lloyd blank Fine Fellow or

929
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman armand desh O Bennett at

930
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 3: Dashbot and kill Brooks at Kilbrooks. And for more odd

931
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: Laws content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots

932
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: with the daily newsletter and all of our episodes, and

933
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: you can chat about all of these topics twenty four

934
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 3: to seven in our discord Discord dot gg slash odlines.

935
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it

936
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 2: when we ask Lloyd blank Fine why he doesn't tweet more,

937
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: then please leave us a positive review on your favorite

938
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber,

939
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free.

940
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel

941
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for

942
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: listening