1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast hosted by Buzz Night. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You can keep up with Taking a Walk if you 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: follow us at takin awalk dot com, Apple Podcasts, the 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: Podcast Playground, or wherever you get your podcasts. On previous 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk episodes, buzz has talked with authors who 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: dig deep into music history stories. These have included David Leaf, 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: who wrote about the genius of Brian Wilson, and Joel Salvin, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: who wrote about legendary red rocker Sammy Hagar. On this episode, 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: buzz welcomes author Scott Shay, talking about his new book 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: All the Leaves Are Brown, about the twisted world of 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: the band The Mamas and the Papas. Join buzz Night 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: as he hosts Scott Shay next on Taking a Walk. 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: Hi, Scott, nice to be with you, albeit on a 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: virtual edition of Taking a Walk. 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: Good deal. 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: So, how could one band that was so immensely talented 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: and successful been so dramatically screwed up in so many 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: other ways? 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 3: That's a good question. 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 4: I mean, I think, you know, I think just humanity 21 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 4: plays a part in that. So, you know, there was 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 4: the old sex, drugs and rock and roll, idiom right, 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 4: and these these four really kind of took it to 24 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 4: the hilp. And you know, I say this a lot, 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 4: and I really I hate to just kind of it 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 4: sounds like I'm bashing the group, but I'm really not. 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 4: It's just between you know, the dysfunction between the members 28 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 4: at you know, following the revelation of Denny's fling with 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 4: Michelle uh and it's really kind of resting on their laurels. 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 4: You know, the all four of them have been members 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 4: of various folk groups and had toured the country and 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 4: you know, on buses and stayed in cheap motels and 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 4: wore the same outfits days on end. 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: And that's a lot of hard work. 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 4: And I think when they got to that level that 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: the Mamas and the Papas was. 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 3: At, they really kind of they kind of got a 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: little lazy, you know. 39 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 4: They didn't they only wanted to tour on weekends and 40 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 4: and warm climates, you know, and they. 41 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: Canceled a lot of shows. 42 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 4: And you know, that's not a recipe for staying together 43 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 4: very long. You know, the Beatles, the Stones, the Birds, 44 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 4: any group of Bob Dylan, any group that really is 45 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 4: a sixties legend, they put the hard work in. They 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 4: they went out and met the people, and you know, 47 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 4: being on the road inspired their songwriting and gave us 48 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 4: some really great stuff. 49 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 3: And unfortunately the mama's and papas didn't really do that. 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: Who was whispering in their ear? That could have been 51 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: a good influence. 52 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 4: Well, Lou Adler for sure, you know, and I know 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: you know the record label they really wanted them out 54 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 4: on the road. It wasn't you know, something that they 55 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 4: weren't at all. 56 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: Enambered with their. 57 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 4: Approach and with the dysfunction, and you know, they and 58 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 4: they had to kind of tread lightly because there was 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 4: they were aware of the relationship dysfunction within the group 60 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 4: and you know, you wanted to hear their walk in 61 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 4: the line of trying to get them out to promote it, 62 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 4: but not getting them to not break up at the 63 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 4: same time, you know. So, but definitely Lou Adler was 64 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 4: was a force that really helped them and got them 65 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 4: back on their feet somewhat. 66 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: But he obviously was doing other things so he couldn't 67 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: spend full time really managing the dysfunction. 68 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, not long after they signed with Dunhill, 69 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 4: you know, he sold it to ABC and walked away 70 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 4: with a cool million in his pocket. 71 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: He and his four I think he had four or 72 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: five partners. Mostly there were silent partners. 73 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 4: And so even after, not long after they had time, 74 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 4: his influence could only carry so far. I mean, Dunhill 75 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 4: for or kept low on to be their manager and 76 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: the producer. 77 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: But you know, he could only go so far as 78 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: with what the label was doing. So but you know, 79 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: I know, I know. 80 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 4: He tried, and I know he loved John and they 81 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 4: were close friends, and in the studio they were a 82 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 4: dynamic duo, you know, But as far as getting on 83 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 4: the road and saying, hey man, we got to put 84 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 4: the work in, I did. 85 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: Do two well there. 86 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: So let's go through each band member, because you paint 87 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: a tremendous picture in the book inside and out of 88 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: each of them. So I'd like to hear your take 89 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: and go through the lineup. First. John Phillips talk about 90 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: what a complex figure he was, Well. 91 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 4: He has maybe the most complex personal life out of 92 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 4: all of them. And that's really saying something you know, 93 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 4: and I'm not even talking about with which came later, 94 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 4: you know, the. 95 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: Allegations from his daughter mcken, but. 96 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: Even back in those days, you know, he was he 97 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 4: was into drugs, you know, in the in the late seventies, 98 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 4: he got busted for being a drug dealer, but that 99 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 4: even that behavior had gone on in the early sixties 100 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 4: when they were in a folk group and he was 101 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 4: dispensing pills to every everybody. You know, he had these 102 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 4: relationships worked out with these chemists. So he was definitely, 103 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 4: you know, in over his head with drugs from the 104 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 4: from the onset. But he was an incredible, incredible musician 105 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 4: and you know, really underrated, I think, uh, And I 106 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 4: think the reason why he's underrated was he wasn't as 107 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: prolific as some of the others. I really put him 108 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 4: up there with Brian Wilson as far as as the 109 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 4: way he arranged songs. 110 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: I mean, they both really you. 111 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 4: Know Brian, Brian was into the Four Freshmen you know 112 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: growing up. 113 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: And really kind of patterned his rock and roll after them. 114 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 4: And and similarly, John was into the High Lows, which 115 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 4: was another singing quartet, kind of jazzy from the from 116 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 4: the early to mid fifties, and they inspired his writing. 117 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 4: But like I said, John just wasn't as prolific, and 118 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 4: so he doesn't get the same kind of accolades that 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 4: somebody like Brian Wilson gets And one of. 120 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: The things I discovered that I didn't know is his 121 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: piece of the action, if you will, with the legendary 122 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: Monterey Pop Festival. Talk about John Phillips as sort of 123 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: a business person in that regard. 124 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: He really was. 125 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 4: You know, when he focused on something, I mean, look out, 126 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 4: he put his awe into it. And that includes the 127 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 4: Monterey Pop Festival that was brought to him by a 128 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: couple guys when Alan Paris here and a guy named 129 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 4: Benjamin Shapiro, and they had wanted to put on They 130 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 4: had put on a show earlier in nineteen sixty seven, 131 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 4: I think in the winter, like February or March, to 132 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 4: bail out to raise money to bail out the kids, 133 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 4: or to pay for the defense of kids who were 134 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 4: arrested during the Sunset Strip riots in Los Angeles Act. 135 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: You know, the curfews had been changed and there was 136 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 4: a lot of riding going on and gave us songs 137 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 4: like for what It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. But so 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 4: they wanted to do a larger one, like an outdoor 139 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 4: festival in Monterey where there was a jazz festival like 140 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 4: every other year or so and so they got it 141 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 4: for two days and they didn't really have anybody. They 142 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: wanted the Beatles and the Stones, but the Beatles had 143 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 4: stopped touring and the Stones were in like you know, 144 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: legal nightmares with their drug buts, so they couldn't even 145 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 4: go anywhere if they wanted to. So Derek Taylor, who 146 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: was you know, had moved, who was the Beatles publicist, 147 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: had moved to Los Angeles and was working for the Birds, 148 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 4: and he had suggested to them the mama was in 149 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 4: the Papa. So the hottest thing going right now, and 150 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 4: they're right in your backyard. So they approached John and 151 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 4: through some cajoling, got him on board, and then he 152 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 4: saw the potential of it and really took it over 153 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 4: and made it what the Monterey Pop Fessel that we 154 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: know today, which is the father of the rock festival, 155 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 4: was really his idea. It was a not for profit 156 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 4: venture and he had all cutting edge artists. He wasn't 157 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 4: like a Dick Clark caravan of stars. It was you know, 158 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: they got a lot of those San Francisco groups like 159 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 4: The Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, and then the two 160 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 4: top British groups in that time, like the who and 161 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 4: the Jimmy Hendricks experience, and you know, gave us an 162 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 4: Otis Redding, you know, and gave us just this incredible 163 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: festival that we're still revering today. 164 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: And he bought out one of the partners ultimately too 165 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: of the festival, didn't. 166 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: He Yeah, Ben Shapiro. He was not thrilled with the. 167 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: Not the nonprofit aspect. So he did a great thing, 168 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 4: a smart thing. He held out, and they just ended 169 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 4: up buying him out for fifty grand. So he walked 170 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 4: He walked away with fifty thousand dollars in his pocket 171 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: and they got what they wanted. 172 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the only living member, the beautiful Michelle Phillips. 173 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: Yes, she was John's wife from nineteen sixty to nineteen 174 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 4: sixty nine. 175 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: They had met when John or yeah. 176 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 4: Nineteen sixty two, I'm sorry. They had met in nineteen 177 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 4: sixty one when John was in the Journeyman. It was 178 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: his folk group that was on Capitol Records, and they 179 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 4: went out to San Francisco to do a month stand 180 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 4: at the Hungry Eye. Their management team was located out there, 181 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 4: so they went out to be closer to them and 182 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 4: really kind of stayed in that area. 183 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: And Michelle was living there. She was a model. 184 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: She was about seventeen and had moved up there from 185 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 4: Los Angeles with their friend Tamar Hotel and whose father, 186 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: George Hotal was a prime suspect in the Black Dalliant murder. 187 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: And so they met them at. 188 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 4: The Hungry Eye, and you know, John, who was an 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 4: habitual cheater on his wife at the time, Susie just 190 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 4: head over heels in love with her. 191 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: So and then you know. 192 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 4: Then they got married like a year or so later, 193 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 4: and they started having marital troubles because Michelle had an affair, 194 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 4: and I think John was reforming the New Journeyman, and 195 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 4: he wanted Michelle a little closer to him to keep 196 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 4: an eye on her, so he brought her in. And 197 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 4: she was also pretty, could sing a little bit, you know, 198 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 4: And but I really think their marriage is critical. I 199 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: think if they hadn't gotten married, we wouldn't have the 200 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 4: mamas and the papas. And you know, she went on, 201 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 4: she didn't really go on to keep singing. She got it, 202 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 4: became an actress, appeared in a lot of movies, was 203 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 4: in Falcon Crest in the eighties, and you know, has 204 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 4: pretty much since retired but you know, like I said, 205 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: very maybe the greatest, one of the greatest songwriting muses 206 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: in rock and roll history as Monday Monday and go 207 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 4: where you want to go? And I saw her again 208 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 4: and and even California Dreaming were inspired by her. 209 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: Did you attempt to reach out to her for the book? 210 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 3: I did, Yeah, I did. 211 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: You know, she did not return my requests. I know 212 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 4: she's very proprietary of that story, you know, and rightly 213 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 4: and understandably so that she's a big part of that story. 214 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 4: So you know, and when I approached her, I was 215 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 4: not signed to a publishing deal. I did not have 216 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 4: an agent, so I was just some random guy, you know, 217 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 4: who worked at the Catholic channel on Sirius XM. And 218 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 4: you know, I can understand why she didn't why she 219 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 4: didn't return my my request. But nonetheless, she she put 220 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 4: out a you know, an autobiography in nineteen eighty six 221 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 4: that we really kind of detailed her time with the 222 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 4: Mamas in the Papa, So I was able to. 223 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: Glean a lot of her perspective from that. 224 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: Let's talk about Denny Doherty. 225 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 4: Denny was you know, talking about underrated Denny I think 226 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 4: is one of the most underrated rock and roll voices. 227 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 4: He had a great, great tenor a great rock and 228 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 4: roll ten, more suited for rock and roll than folk music. 229 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 4: He was in a folk band as well that was 230 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 4: signed to Epic Records, and they were called the Halifax Three. 231 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 4: They were all from Nova, scot Osha, Canada, and uh, 232 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 4: you know, they had some minor success, but they He 233 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 4: and John met on a on a Hoot and Any 234 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 4: tour when John was with the Journeymen, and those two 235 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 4: got very close. They would like they both smoked marijuana, 236 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: and when the tour bus would come come to a 237 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 4: rest stop, they would go off in the bushes and 238 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 4: and you know, sneak a joint here and there, and uh, 239 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 4: but it drew them closer, and they really had a 240 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 4: love for each other. And even after it came to 241 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 4: light that Michelle and Johnny had Michelle and Denny had 242 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 4: slept together, they were able to find a place of 243 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 4: healing and and remain friends. And they were friends through 244 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 4: through the rest of of John's life. 245 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: So then let's talk about the great cast Elliott. 246 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: Well, she was definitely the superstar of the group. 247 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 4: You know, kind of a kind of came out of nowhere, 248 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 4: I think when you when you look, you know, through 249 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 4: the lens of history, she was you know, she was 250 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 4: you know, a heavy set and not traditionally the traditional 251 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: look of a female lead singer. But she had quite 252 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 4: a voice and she had a personality to match. 253 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: You know. 254 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 4: I think in many ways she had that to try 255 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 4: to make up for, you know, for her weight, you know, 256 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 4: which you know, in her mind was probably a bigger 257 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 4: deal than what it but you know, it was made 258 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: you know, it was made. 259 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 3: Fun of a lot. 260 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 4: You know, she's it's always brought up and you watch 261 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 4: her on TV shows and interviews and stuff like that. 262 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 4: But she was an incredible talent. And she also was 263 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 4: in a folk group of the Big Three, and she 264 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 4: had met she had met Denny on tour as well, 265 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 4: and she fell in love with him. You know, he 266 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 4: was a good looking guy and she was really into him. 267 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 4: But it was unrequited love. Denny loved her as. 268 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: A friend, but he was not into her romantically. 269 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 4: And that was another thing that just really kind of 270 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 4: gave the band. It's you know, the love between Mr 271 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 4: Michelle or Denny and Cass or the unrequited love. And 272 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: but you know, over time, I think the behavior of 273 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 4: all of them just kind of distanced her from them, 274 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 4: and she was looking for a way out. And you know, 275 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 4: as the Mamas and the Papa's star began to fall, 276 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 4: hers as a solo singer was rising because she was 277 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 4: when they were on stage. She was the spokesperson of 278 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 4: the group. She was the one who told the stories 279 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 4: while the band was tuning their instruments, you know, and 280 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 4: that she had done that with her time with the 281 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: Big Three, and you know, she was the breakout star 282 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 4: when Dream a Little Dream of Me came out, it 283 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 4: was credited to Mama Cass with the Mamas and the Papas. 284 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 4: I think Dunhill Records saw the writing on the wall 285 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 4: and wanted to move on with Cass, and they did, 286 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 4: and she had a you know, fairly successful solo career 287 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: as a singer. It was probably not what they had 288 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 4: hoped for. She didn't really have any smash number one success, 289 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 4: but you know, she her personality was such that, you know, 290 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 4: she was on talk shows, a lot of talk shows. 291 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 4: I mean she did like Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin 292 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 4: dozens of times. I believe she hosted Carson filled in 293 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 4: for him a couple of times when he was you know, 294 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 4: he was always taken off so so. 295 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: And she was on his show a lot. 296 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 4: So I think had she lived, she may have become 297 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 4: a very successful talk show host. 298 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: It's amazing that they, at least John Phillips did not 299 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: want her in the group. And it's also amazing that 300 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: even in one of their songs, you know, the line, 301 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: no one's getting fat except Mama Cass. I mean, think 302 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: about that in today's world. 303 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 4: I know, it's it's inconceivable, you know. But and the 304 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 4: funny thing was that, you know, she she was in 305 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 4: on the joke, and she knew John, and I think 306 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 4: her way of getting back at John, because they had 307 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 4: a very tumultuous relationship, was to sing that line with 308 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 4: as much vim and vigor as she could muster. And 309 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 4: when you listen to it, she is really into that line, 310 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 4: you know, and I think, you know, it's you know, 311 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 4: for us, it may be kind of backfired on him, 312 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 4: but it as for us, we benefited it because it 313 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 4: just it gives that song a little more pizaz. 314 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: My understanding from talking to the great photographer Henry Dilts, 315 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: who knew Mama Cass, was that she was an incredible sweetheart. 316 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: Oh she was. 317 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 4: I mean you can just see in the interviews that 318 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: she gives she's she's very endearing. And I think that's 319 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: one reason why she was so successful in that realm, 320 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 4: is that people like to hear her talk and like 321 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: to you know it. It drew people closer to her, 322 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 4: and it's you know, you could fall in love with 323 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 4: her personality very very very easily, and you know, and 324 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 4: and for for my case, I mean, I don't you know, 325 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 4: I know she didn't think so, and maybe by by 326 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 4: other standards, I think she's. 327 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: An attractive woman too, but you know she was. 328 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 4: She just had a great look about her and a 329 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 4: great personality to boot, you know, and America fell in love, 330 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 4: and unfortunately, not just America, but the world fell in love, 331 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 4: and we lost her way too early, you know, at 332 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 4: the age of thirty two years old. 333 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: And then there was this moment with the band that 334 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: I did not know about, the moment where the band 335 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: kicked out Michelle Phillips for the affair that she was 336 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 2: having with Jeene Clark of the Birds. Can you talk 337 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: about that? 338 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 339 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know, I think once the dust settled for 340 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: from Denny and Michelle's fling, you know, Michelle stayed in 341 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 4: the house where that John she and John had rented. 342 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: Shortly after that came to light, and then but John 343 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: moved out and moved in with Denny, and then she, 344 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 4: you know, she began this affair with Jean Clark, who 345 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 4: she met through a mutual friend, and I think once 346 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 4: that came to light, it was it was too much 347 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 4: for John. It's just like, I can't deal with this 348 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 4: if you want. I think he told Denny and Mama 349 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 4: Cass that it's either me or her, you know, and 350 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 4: they couldn't afford to lose John. They could afford to 351 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 4: lose Michelle, or so they thought, you know, because. 352 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: John was he was the Prinson. 353 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 4: Without John, there is no mamas and papas, which is 354 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 4: why he's really kind of a focal point of this book. 355 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 3: You know. 356 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: It's kind of like the Beach Boys. You read a 357 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 4: book on the Beach Boys, it's going to be a 358 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 4: lot of focus on Brian Wilson. So so they did, 359 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 4: you know, John fired her after a concert where Jeene 360 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 4: Clark was in attendance, and John noticed and he fired 361 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 4: her in the parking lot, and a few days later 362 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 4: they sent her a formal letter, and you know, it 363 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 4: was the summer of nineteen sixty six, so it lasted 364 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: for about two months, and they brought in Joe Gidz, 365 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 4: who was Lou Adler's girlfriend at the time. She had 366 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 4: been the girlfriend of Jan Barry, of Jan and Dean 367 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 4: Uh and they had broken up shortly before he had 368 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 4: his car wreck that Uh you know, gave him resulted 369 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 4: in some brain damage. 370 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: But you know, she was tall, another pretty blonde. She 371 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: was a former model. She was very musical. 372 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: She had written songs and worked in the studio with 373 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 4: Jan and Dean and had recorded a single herself, so 374 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 4: she was kind of a natural replacement. But the thing was, 375 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 4: you know, the mam was in the papas was a 376 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 4: shared experience between four people, and I think it came 377 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 4: to light during that time period and that you know, 378 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: there was it. 379 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: Was Michelle was just wasn't. 380 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 4: A cog you could take out and replace. You know, 381 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 4: she had been with them through thick and thin. They 382 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 4: were together in New York, they were together at. 383 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: The Virgin Islands, they all. 384 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 4: She was with them when they moved back out to 385 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 4: California and got signed to Dunhill, and they just couldn't 386 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 4: replace that, you know, she had an edge to her 387 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 4: that Jill didn't have. So he eventually brought her back 388 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 4: in right there at the end of summer and just 389 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 4: resumed as normal, And it actually kind of kicked off 390 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 4: a bit of a renaissance in John and Michelle's marriage. 391 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 4: They bought that house in bel Air and lived you knows, 392 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 4: as normally as they could for a little while, but then, 393 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 4: you know, bad behaviors made their way back in and 394 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 4: they eventually divorced. 395 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: What was your conversation with Jill Gibson like for the book? 396 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 4: It was very, very introspective. She's a very deep person. 397 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 4: She's an artist. 398 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 3: You know. 399 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 4: We communicated via email and she would always reply in 400 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 4: a very timely manner and with always with great depth. 401 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 4: She told me a great, the great story of them 402 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: meeting the Beatles. She was with them when they went 403 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 4: to London in nineteen sixty six in the summer there 404 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 4: and really gave me a first hand account of not 405 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 4: only meeting the Beatles, but several members of the Rolling 406 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 4: Stones and just and it's all detailed. The book people 407 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 4: can will enjoy and if you're a Beatles fan or 408 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 4: only stone Stan, you'll certainly enjoy the Mama's and the 409 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 4: papa shared experience with them. 410 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: So do you ever think about the parallels of this 411 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: band for a band that would eventually mature in some 412 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: way and have its own legacy. The comparison between the 413 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: Mamas and the papas and the various affairs and Fleetwood Mac. 414 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, It's funny. 415 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 4: I didn't even really think of that writing it. And 416 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 4: I'm a big Fleetwood Mac fan, so it's like, you know, 417 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 4: but it's yeah, they were kind of Fleetwood Mac before 418 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: Fleetwood Mac, you know, and it was it was complicated. 419 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 4: But you know, I know there's a mini series out 420 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 4: there based on the life of the tumultuous relationship of 421 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 4: the most famous incarnation of Fleetwood maccause there were several 422 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 4: you know, with Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks and uh, 423 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 4: you know the movie the book. My book has already 424 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 4: been optioned for a movie or a limited edition series, 425 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 4: and I really think the story of the Mamas and 426 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 4: the Poppets could be a great limited edition series right 427 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 4: right there with daj Shones in the sixth because it 428 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 4: rights itself. 429 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: And there's a cliffhanger there. 430 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 4: Already built in for every episode. But you know, it 431 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 4: was the same thing, you know, just affairs and broken 432 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 4: hearts and jealousies, and. 433 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: It was it was there before the Fleet, before Fleetwood 434 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 3: Mac even brought it to another level. 435 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: So three ring Circus it was what it was. 436 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, for sure, for sure, you know, and the 437 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 4: three principles being well, actually yeah, I guess you could 438 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 4: say Sean is in there, but definitely Danny, Michelle and Cash. 439 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you were their manager during that period, 440 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: what would you have tried to do to steer the course. 441 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 3: Ah? Boy, that's a good question. 442 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 4: You know, it's tough because you know, we talked about 443 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 4: the Monterey Pop Festival how that really changed music. 444 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 3: It was, it brought it. 445 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 4: It really kind of gave us what we now referred 446 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 4: to as classic rock because that was right after that. 447 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 3: Was the. 448 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: All those San Francisco groups really started to hit and 449 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 4: albums became a bigger thing than singles, and do you 450 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 4: had power trios like Cream and the Jimmy Hendricks experience 451 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 4: and the Mamas and the Papas struggled to find a 452 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 4: footing in that, and that's the very thing that they 453 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: had created. You know, harmony groups didn't do too well 454 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 4: in the post Monterey world. You think of the Beach 455 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 4: Boys and the Four Seasons and the Mamas and the Papas, 456 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 4: and you know, you eventually had this oldies revival that 457 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 4: you know, the Mamas and the Beach Boys in the 458 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 4: Four Seasons were able to kind of get back, get 459 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 4: their footing back, and really rejuvenate their careers. 460 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: But the Mamas and the Papas just couldn't do that. 461 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 4: So, I mean, I guess if I would have in 462 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 4: that era, I would have to get to work and 463 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 4: just try to figure out how to make this four 464 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 4: piece treat four piece quartet the thing's harmony relevant. 465 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: In this age. And that's that's a tough That was 466 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: a tough would have been a tough order. And we 467 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 3: see it the Mamas. 468 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 4: And the Papas their fourth album, The Papas and the 469 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 4: Mamas of not the greatest title in the world. It 470 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 4: was a good album and it came out right there 471 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty eight during that time, but it's not 472 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: very memorable. You know, there's no real super standout tracks. 473 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 4: There's good tracks, aren't this fan favorites for sure, but 474 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 4: nothing like what had come before it, like Creaky Alley 475 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 4: or California Dreaming or I saw her again. So I 476 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 4: think if I were there, I think if I were 477 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 4: their manager, I don't know if I would have done 478 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 4: been any better than Lou Adler or whoever else came in, 479 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 4: Bobby Roberts and all those other guys that came in. 480 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 4: But I would just definitely say, we got to focus 481 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 4: on finding our footing here and how we're going to 482 00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 4: stay relevant in this era. 483 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 2: Might have been a visit to an addiction councilor possibly too, I. 484 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 4: Don't know, And remember that that time and period he 485 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 4: was hip to be on drugs. 486 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: True. Well, Scott, congratulations on all the leaves of brown, 487 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: how the Mamas and the papas came together and broke apart. 488 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: Your new book on Backbeat, and congratulations on it, and 489 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: thank you for being on taking a Walk. 490 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 4: Well, thank you boys, I really appreciate you having me on. 491 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 4: And just if listeners want to, you know, learn to 492 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 4: buy the book, and so you can go to my 493 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 4: website scotch a author dot com, Shaft at s h 494 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 4: G A and we'll give you links to Amazon and 495 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 4: Barnes and Noble Books A million, and the audiobook just 496 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 4: dropped the other day, so if that's your preferred method 497 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 4: of getting through a book, you can pick that up 498 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 4: as well. 499 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 2: Thank you, Scott, I appreciate it, Thank you so much. 500 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify Podcasts 501 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts 502 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 3: MHM.