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Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and

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Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Elon and Zuck versus Grown

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Speaker 1: up Management. Silicon Valley is many things. It's a hub

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Speaker 1: of revolutionary technological innovation. It's home to novel creative approaches

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Speaker 1: to managing businesses and production. It's a giant storehouse of

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Speaker 1: wealth and startup britches, stretching along a slender strip of

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Speaker 1: land winding south from San Francisco to San Jose. It's

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Speaker 1: also the centerpiece of a very specific kind of bro culture,

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Speaker 1: a culture that has had a certain winner take all

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Speaker 1: mojo over the years, but which may be running its course.

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Speaker 1: That's not to say that the bro's holds will loosen.

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Speaker 1: It just may be that, as Silicon Valley matures, being

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Speaker 1: a bro is in everything that it's cracked up to be,

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Speaker 1: at least when it comes to managing a mature and

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Speaker 1: complex enterprise, instead of say, launching a world beating company

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Speaker 1: from scratch. To test this thesis, I present you with

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, founders of such landmark companies

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Speaker 1: as Tesla, SpaceX and Meta aka Facebook. They are both innovators,

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Speaker 1: admirable risk takers, and bazillionaires. They've also struggled to evolve

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Speaker 1: to have early vaunted reputations as wise men correspond with

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Speaker 1: equally wise management and wise decisions as the world around

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Speaker 1: them changed, and they recently considered fighting one another in

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Speaker 1: a cage match. Really they did. Joining me today to

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Speaker 1: consider all of this is Kara Swisher. Kara has been

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Speaker 1: watching Silicon Valley since well forever as a journalist, convener

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Speaker 1: of Ideas, raconteur, and residence smarty. She is the host

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Speaker 1: of the On with Kara Swisher and Pivot podcasts. That's

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Speaker 1: a lot of podcasting, and she's an editor at large

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Speaker 1: with New York Magazine. So howdy Cara, Hi, how you doing.

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Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: No problem.

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Speaker 1: So we may come out of this with different definitions,

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Speaker 1: but can we develop a working definition together of Silicon Valley? Broness,

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Speaker 1: how would you define that?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's not meant to be nice, I think at

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Speaker 2: this point there's all kinds of cliches about groups of

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Speaker 2: people Hollywood types or producers or whatever, indie actors, and

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Speaker 2: so it's just a type of person who populates Silicon

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Speaker 2: Valley who they sort of take on the patterns of

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Speaker 2: the others who came before them, and so they pass

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Speaker 2: it down from person person I guess if you had

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Speaker 2: to broadly put it, and I don't think everyone fits

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Speaker 2: into this. It's you know, an arrogance youth, frequently wrong,

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Speaker 2: but never in doubt. Use a word like pivot, and

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Speaker 2: you know, failure is just an opportunity for growth, that

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Speaker 2: kind of stuff, you know, just a sort of basically

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Speaker 2: going through the world and breaking things and then thinking

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Speaker 2: it's someone else's fault almost all the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it an unfair broad brush, well sort of.

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Speaker 1: And Silicon Valley and one.

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Speaker 2: People are always like, you know, lesbian's evning a sense

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Speaker 2: of humor. I think I'm very funny, so, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I just I guess it does tend

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Speaker 2: to fit, though they do tend to dress alike. I

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Speaker 2: think what happens is when you get in any culture,

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Speaker 2: people tend to pattern match people, and so everyone suddenly

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Speaker 2: was behaving like Mark Zuckerberg, right, But Mark Zuckerberg was

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Speaker 2: behaving like people before him. So it's a little true.

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Speaker 2: Like a lot of things it's got a lot of

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Speaker 2: truth to it. And they often do tend to look

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Speaker 2: alike and wear the same clothes and have the same attitudes,

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Speaker 2: but they also contain multitudes. As Walt Whitman wrote.

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Speaker 1: So have I picked well? Do you think that Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and Mark Zuckerberg are emblematic of the culture of

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Speaker 1: Bronus Wow?

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Speaker 2: In different ways? You know, both have changed rather significantly,

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Speaker 2: although I would say, you know, on the surface, I

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Speaker 2: guess Mark would be the tech bro, of the kind

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Speaker 2: of bro you think about. Although personally he's quite nice.

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Speaker 2: He's quite a nice guy from what I can understand.

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Speaker 2: He's quite a good parent, and he's a good husband,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like, there's a lot more

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Speaker 2: there than people would think about him. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: he kind of has people following him or trying to

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Speaker 2: be like him essentially, and that way, which is like

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Speaker 2: push through I'm right, even though people said I was wrong,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Right now, he's got a bit of an obsession with athleticism.

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Speaker 2: I assume it's because he wasn't athletic when he was younger.

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Speaker 2: It's quite aggressive. His athleticism is quite aggressive. Let me

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Speaker 2: show you me doing all these hard athletic things or

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Speaker 2: show off my body in some fashion, which I'm fine with. Fine, whatever,

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Speaker 2: he wants to be healthy. So you know, you probably

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Speaker 2: see a lot of people better match that. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of people they did the same thing when everybody

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Speaker 2: was fasting or whatever, and so you know, he seems

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Speaker 2: like it. Although I think people would be surprised to

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Speaker 2: find him to be a relatively thoughtful and nice person.

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Speaker 2: I know people get angry when I say that, because

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Speaker 2: he's done a lot of damage. His company has done

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Speaker 2: a lot of damage to society. I think so, and

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Speaker 2: so it can be cross purposes with he. Well, you

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Speaker 2: may like him, but he's done terrible things. Well, I'm

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Speaker 2: just pointing out that he's not obnoxious. I've never found

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Speaker 2: him to be particularly obnoxious.

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Speaker 1: But the pro phenomenon is it's a relatively new thing,

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Speaker 1: at least in the dimensions we're talking about it, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Silicon Valley's always been a boys club, right,

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Speaker 1: and still largely is. But there's a world of difference

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Speaker 1: between the days of Bill Hewlett and David Packard and

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Speaker 1: Elon and Zach Sure.

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Speaker 2: They just wore ties. They were just as arrogant like,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry they were. If you go back and look

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Speaker 2: at that, you know, Thomas Edison was kind of a jackass.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like tech pros have always been somewhat

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Speaker 2: of a jackass, you know, I don't know, there was definitely.

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Speaker 2: I mean I wrote a piece when I came to

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Speaker 2: the Wall Street Journal in the nineties because I started

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Speaker 2: to notice they all had to wear a certain kind

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Speaker 2: of vest. If you're a VCS, you had a different

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Speaker 2: kind of vest, you know, a fleece fest essentially, Patagonia

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Speaker 2: fleece Fest. One of the things I wrote is all

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Speaker 2: the lies they tell themselves, which was one is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't like fancy things. They needed burrito

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Speaker 2: places and meanwhile, jump on the private plane two years later, right,

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. And so they sort of had

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Speaker 2: to sort of cosplay being a simple guy just like

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Speaker 2: everybody else, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not dressing well. I may wander around in Adidas what

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Speaker 2: are they called those things? He wears their flip pops. Essentially.

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Speaker 2: My son will kill me for not knowing what to

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Speaker 2: call this, but you know that kind of thing. I'm

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Speaker 2: a simple guy. I don't need a lot and then

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Speaker 2: of course they all live lives of ridiculous and egregious privilege.

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Speaker 1: But there has been a cultural shift, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I am amused, and I like the idea of thinking

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Speaker 1: about Thomas Edison as a tech bro. He is, and

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Speaker 1: maybe in his time he was a tech bro for

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Speaker 1: you know the way he rolled then. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's sort of a bravado to it now and a

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Speaker 1: strutting to it now that seems different from Edison. It

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Speaker 1: seems different from Hewlett and Packer.

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Speaker 2: I think if you look back, do a lot of

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Speaker 2: manipulation of the press, a lot of stuntishness, that kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff. It's not unlike Elon Musk, honestly.

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Speaker 1: But that's like a use of power, which I know

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Speaker 1: has been eternal. But I'm sort of I just wonder

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Speaker 1: if there's a cultural kind of a difference around the

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Speaker 1: ma chismo of it and the kind of public strutting

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Speaker 1: that it income.

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Speaker 2: I think they just these are people who didn't get

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Speaker 2: a lot of attention in their youth and now they

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Speaker 2: do because of money and power, and so it's very classic.

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Speaker 2: Feels like a Genesee in song, like they got pick

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Speaker 2: lasts at basketball and they're taking it out on the

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Speaker 2: rest of us for not picking them sooner. I don't

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, you could boil it down

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Speaker 2: to something like that, but a lot of them Tech

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Speaker 2: has become cool and nerds has become cool. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of the revenge of the Nerds kind of scenario that

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Speaker 2: has happened. And what comes with it is an enormous

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Speaker 2: amount of money. Like that's really what gives them power, right,

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Speaker 2: the money they have, not necessarily it they invented something,

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Speaker 2: although that's also important. But you know, when people become

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Speaker 2: really rich, they become more and more certain they're correct,

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Speaker 2: and very few people push back against that because it's

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Speaker 2: all in their interests to get money from those people.

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Speaker 2: You know, everyone's on their payroll, and so that tends

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Speaker 2: to be like that. The way I sort of characterize

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Speaker 2: it is sort of a juvenilization of people who are

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Speaker 2: adults men, adult men, typically white adult men, and so

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Speaker 2: they juvenilize them by constantly licking them up and down,

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Speaker 2: telling them they're smart, saying oh right again, sir, that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. And I think one of the things

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Speaker 2: that also at the same time that manifests is that

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Speaker 2: they feel like they're victims. If they're criticized or given

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Speaker 2: any feedback, they find that to be an attack. Like

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Speaker 2: you're seeing that right now with Elon and ADL. It's

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Speaker 2: their fault, you know. Naysayers. Well, in this case, he's

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Speaker 2: pulling into tropes around Jews or to blame, which is

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Speaker 2: very dangerous. And yeah, they're naysayers and they're Miami. He's

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Speaker 2: got to always have an enemy, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: Because you couldn't possibly have made a mistake. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's something that's very hard for them to accept.

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Speaker 1: So is that mindset that you're right and everyone else

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Speaker 1: is wrong and you're a strutting rooster. Are those things

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Speaker 1: necessary to be successful in Silicon Valley?

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Speaker 2: No, not at all. There's a lot of very nice people,

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Speaker 2: not at all, not even slightly. I can think of

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Speaker 2: a dozen different people who are just lovely, Brian Chesky

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Speaker 2: being one of them from Airbnb. Most of the adults

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Speaker 2: are fine.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Even Steve Jobs wasn't that much of an asshole, not

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Speaker 2: compared to these guys, like you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: He could.

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Speaker 1: Be eric and once he learned, he turned out to

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Speaker 1: be a pretty good manager.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. And most people stayed for twenty years, right,

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Speaker 2: they didn't leave the people who work there. He could

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Speaker 2: be very difficult, but you know, he also if you

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Speaker 2: go back and listen interview, he's very thoughtful. He's very

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say he was humble, but that's okay, that's fine.

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Speaker 2: He was a game changer, but he wasn't just petty

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Speaker 2: and juvenile. He definitely wasn't juvenile.

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Speaker 1: He also had to kind of go through trial by fire, right,

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Speaker 1: he got kicked out of the company he built.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just feel like he was an adult and sort.

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Speaker 1: Of learned from his lessons and then came back and acted.

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Speaker 2: I used the term adult like he was an adult,

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Speaker 2: Like there's a lot of adults. Tim Cook as an adult.

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Speaker 2: Read Hastings as an adult, read Hoffman as an adult,

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Speaker 2: you know, meaning that they just they don't get into

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Speaker 2: peaks if you say, hey, I have a problem with this,

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Speaker 2: Like when I was doing an interview with Elon and

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Speaker 2: I was he was, you know, just forcing his employees

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Speaker 2: back into the office, into the factory. Before anybody knew

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Speaker 2: anything about COVID. You could have an argument about whether

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Speaker 2: it or not, but nobody knew, and he had a

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Speaker 2: certainty I think he said something like they'll be like

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Speaker 2: zero COVID deaths or whatever or something. He didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I've read all the studies.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. Completely ignorant everything you said.

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Speaker 2: Of course, but he read all the studies of deep ignorance.

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Speaker 2: I was like, we don't know, we don't know. Let's

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Speaker 2: assume lack of safety until we have better information, like

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Speaker 2: why not? And you know, he threatened to walk off

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Speaker 2: the show, like I'm going to leave. I'm like, fine,

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Speaker 2: who does that? But like my two year old, My

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Speaker 2: two year old doesn't even behave like that, right, It's like,

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Speaker 2: who does that? That's an adult. I'm going to leave. Haha,

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Speaker 2: you know whatever, it's childish and throw out of this ever. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's just like, you know, we're someone who posts memes

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Speaker 2: of boobs, like he always puts a boob thing up.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, you're fifty two fucking years old, really, you know,

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Speaker 2: and all the young men ooh.

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Speaker 1: Cool enough with the boobs.

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Speaker 2: Cool boobs, Like, oh, come on, really, you're fifty two.

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Speaker 2: It moves in on pathetic.

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Speaker 1: And poop emojis. Don't forget the poop emojis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever, whatever, they're fifty two.

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Speaker 1: It's an ecosystem too, right, isn't the venture capital community

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Speaker 1: and the media part of the development of Bronus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends. Like the venture capitalist I always thought

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Speaker 2: them as enabling parents, like, oh, yes, you're a genius.

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Speaker 2: Their interests for money, They wanted to make money. So

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Speaker 2: anything they could say to get these guys to do

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Speaker 2: what they wanted was what they would do. So more sugar,

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Speaker 2: sure you won't get diabetes. Sure more I love you, You're

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Speaker 2: the best. And of course they would turn on them

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Speaker 2: in a second if they needed to. But yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think the culture was very much we support our founders,

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Speaker 2: and in fact it was just bad parenting this way

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Speaker 2: I looked at it bad parenting.

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Speaker 1: And on the note of bad parenting, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break to hear from a sponsor, Karen,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll come right back. I'm talking with Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley whisperer Kara Swisher about tech Bros. And Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: and Mark Zuckerberg. Carol, let's talk about each of these

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Speaker 1: guys individually. Zuck found Facebook famously in his Harvard dorm

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Speaker 1: room in two thousand and four. So if you look

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Speaker 1: back on his path to an IPO and three billion

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Speaker 1: users and becoming the most vibrant global social media platform,

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Speaker 1: the apollo of the social media landscape. Is there anything

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Speaker 1: different about the path that he took to those various

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Speaker 1: landing pads as an entrepreneur and then a businessman, You know,

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Speaker 1: he was more driven.

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Speaker 2: He he reminded me of a great deal of Bill Gates,

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Speaker 2: you know, very driven young man at all times and

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Speaker 2: very serious at the time. If you may not recall,

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Speaker 2: my Space was the cat's pajamas for everybody, right, everybody

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Speaker 2: loved my sise. They were cool and handsome.

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Speaker 1: Remember friends there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, although that was never cool with my Space

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Speaker 2: and Chris, a guy who ran it, and Tom were cool.

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Speaker 2: They were cool. They were handsome, cool men, and so

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Speaker 2: that was where everybody was. And Mark was just plugging

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Speaker 2: away out.

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Speaker 1: And the Murdochs were smart for having remember bought into

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Speaker 1: my Space.

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Speaker 2: They did, but they think they lost money at it.

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Speaker 2: I believe they did.

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Speaker 1: They ultimately did. But remember at the.

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Speaker 2: Time, Yeah, the thing that makes me think they're not smart,

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Speaker 2: They think they were stupid. But Mark was plugging away

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Speaker 2: with the utilitarian thing that I he kept calling it

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Speaker 2: the utility to me and you can imagine as a reporter, Oh,

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Speaker 2: a utility. How fascinating, you know, And so I thought

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Speaker 2: that was really smart actually, because he is just sort

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Speaker 2: of I'm useful, I'm useful, I'm useful, And I used

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Speaker 2: to call him a young fogie, like he was sort

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Speaker 2: of an old person in a young person's body. And

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Speaker 2: so he was quite serious and very like intent and

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Speaker 2: aggressive a lot like young Bill Gates, I think, in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: And then he grows Facebook sort of in two ways,

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Speaker 1: through this steamroller of an ad business, and then through

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Speaker 1: acquisitions he buys Instagram, WhatsApp as time goes on, and

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Speaker 1: then organic growth sort of stalls out on him and

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Speaker 1: he has to actually try to do something with the

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Speaker 1: company other than ride the wave, and the jury still

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Speaker 1: out as to whether or not he's up to that, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean that happens with a lot of

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Speaker 2: people like Microsoft. You remember they went into media. They

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Speaker 2: had AMAZN, they had cable, they had all kinds of

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Speaker 2: little alley ways they went down, none of which worked

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Speaker 2: out except he sold software.

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Speaker 1: General electric in a completely different industry.

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Speaker 2: Everybody does that, like, you know, even the Google guys,

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Speaker 2: they don't like search business, even though it pays for everything, right,

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Speaker 2: I think we'll do elevators up the streets of Sanford Cisco.

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Speaker 2: What about a barge where we you know, we live

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Speaker 2: or whatever. And now you know, these people making their

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Speaker 2: town up in Solano County, you know, they get bored

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Speaker 2: with what brought them there and they want to do

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Speaker 2: something else. And I think all these things have a

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Speaker 2: life cycle. Right, people will use Facebook until something else

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Speaker 2: better comes alonger they don't like it anymore, they get

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Speaker 2: bored with it. There's a limit to growth of it.

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Speaker 2: And so you've got to be really prescient.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: The only company that really does this over and over

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Speaker 2: again has been Apple. Right has continued to evolve relatively successfully,

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Speaker 2: although they've had you know, if you don't remember paying

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Speaker 2: I do. It was their social network. They tried a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of things that didn't.

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Speaker 1: Work, and they're starting to hit some plateaus.

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Speaker 2: Everyone says the proper Steve Jobs tied. It's over. It

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Speaker 2: was not over forth ten times the amount when he

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Speaker 2: was living.

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Speaker 1: And they brought in a very competent, boring, skilled manager

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Speaker 1: and Tim Cook, not a.

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Speaker 2: Bro yeah, and grew it. Didn't just manage it, grew it.

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Speaker 2: You know, the Internet's littered with companies that were popular

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Speaker 2: and I've forgotten the names of a lot of them,

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Speaker 2: right that were super popular and then weren't. And these

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Speaker 2: are consumer products in many ways, and so that's normal

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Speaker 2: and natural for people to move on from what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And so Facebook certainly has had the longest run of

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Speaker 2: successful utility for people who use it, and smartly bought Instagram,

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Speaker 2: which still remains really interesting. I think what's hard is,

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Speaker 2: just like with Google, is everything else pales in comparison

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Speaker 2: to their original product, and very few companies can change

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Speaker 2: course in that regard.

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Speaker 1: So how do you see Mark Zuckerberg's management evolving over

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Speaker 1: that time, from those heady days when Facebook was just

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Speaker 1: a self generating piggybank to now when he's trying to

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Speaker 1: find new businesses. He turns through Cheryl Sandberg after a period.

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Speaker 2: It was a long time. I know he was ten

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Speaker 2: fifteen years. That wasn't a short period. I think Mark

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Speaker 2: has an admirable consistency of the managers there. They were

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Speaker 2: there ten twelve years, which I think was unusual to stay.

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Speaker 1: I think the shift from Cheryl Sandberg to Nick Clegg

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Speaker 1: is meaningful in terms of.

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Speaker 2: Well that's just it's a late stage company, right, late

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Speaker 2: stage company for internet companies which have a very short,

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Speaker 2: much shorter life cycle. You know, Cheryl was critically important.

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Speaker 2: Mark had a chaotic management style for a long time

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Speaker 2: because he was young and never he's actually quite good

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Speaker 2: as a manager.

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Speaker 1: And she was the adult in the room.

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Speaker 2: Well I hate the expression, but yeah, sure, I think

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Speaker 2: you know, she just knew how to run a business

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Speaker 2: right with stuff he wasn't interested in. He was interested

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Speaker 2: in the products. She was interested in business. And she

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Speaker 2: had come from Google where she ran the most boring

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Speaker 2: part of Google that did really well, which is this

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Speaker 2: ad serving business. And she really should get a lot

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Speaker 2: of credit for, you know, jacking the ad business as

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Speaker 2: high as they did, and they had a great partnership

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Speaker 2: for a very long time. And I just think it

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Speaker 2: evolves over time and again as these people get rich,

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Speaker 2: as they get wealthier, they get bored with what brong them.

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Speaker 2: They don't like oh, or in the wire hanger business,

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Speaker 2: I'd rather own a sports team, right, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean? Like nobody wants to be what they were,

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Speaker 2: And so I think he evolved, and then of course

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Speaker 2: he got hit with all the accusations around misinformation and

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Speaker 2: Russian involvement and meddlesomeness and.

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Speaker 1: For division and hate.

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Speaker 2: And so what does he do. He renames the company

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Speaker 2: going down another alley, which is the metaverse, which I

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Speaker 2: think has proved rather expensive and quite premature.

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Speaker 1: Well, and also sort of imposed that on an entire

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Speaker 1: company because it was his idea and he thought it

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Speaker 1: was the way to get ys.

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Speaker 2: Well, because he controls the company, he can't be fired.

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Speaker 1: Right, But this is also to me another sort of

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Speaker 1: signal moment and whether or not young Mark can evolve

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Speaker 1: into a good manager, like the embrace of meta as

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Speaker 1: both an idea and a name and a direction for

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Speaker 1: the company. Yeah, that he sort of jams down.

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Speaker 2: He was trying to pretend he wasn't you know, No, No,

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Speaker 2: I'm not Genghis Khan. I'm really Phil Jackson. I don't

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Speaker 2: know whatever. He just wanted to change his name. He

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be one thing, you know, ignore that

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Speaker 2: over there. I'm over here doing this fabulous future stuff.

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Speaker 2: He should have said AI really is what he should

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Speaker 2: have said, but he said metaverse instead. And you know,

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Speaker 2: with the time, we were like, no, this is so early,

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Speaker 2: this is so wrong. But it's his party's he controls

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Speaker 2: the company. So that's the way it is.

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Speaker 1: So let's focus on Elon for a second. He launches

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Speaker 1: PayPal famously with people.

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Speaker 2: He did not launch PayPal. No, that's not true.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was through a merger with X dot com.

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Speaker 2: And they were they were competitors. PayPal existed, they were rivals.

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Speaker 2: They didn't like each other. That gang Elon's gang and

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Speaker 2: the other gang.

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Speaker 1: Well he had X and the other I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the other companies that merged form PayPal doesn't. We're probably

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Speaker 1: bore people all they In.

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Speaker 2: Any case, they merged them because they were competitors. They

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Speaker 2: didn't want to compete. That really was what they were

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Speaker 2: doing this.

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Speaker 1: So so PayPal comes in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they all got together and they had a

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Speaker 2: lot of problems with each other, and Elon got you know,

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Speaker 2: jammed out of PayPal in a lot of ways. And

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Speaker 2: they all made money.

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Speaker 1: But he gets some of the spoils though when they

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Speaker 1: sell it to eBay, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that was a very lucky thing for all

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Especially for Elon, and that it gave him a lot

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Speaker 1: of cash that he uses to seed space x and

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Speaker 1: to take a steak in Tesla all around the same period.

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Speaker 2: It was unusual because all of them went often did

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Speaker 2: stupid things. And Elon he really attracted my notice because

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Speaker 2: he wasn't doing dumb things. I was like, huh, you

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Speaker 2: know rockets, cars, Oh cool, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It was very ambitious and really interesting and AI. He

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Speaker 2: was very early. He's one of the first people who

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Speaker 2: ever talked about AI with me was Elon Musk, especially

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Speaker 2: the dangers of AI, and so yeah, he was very serious,

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Speaker 2: like another serious minded person who was doing substantive things

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Speaker 2: rather than oh, I think I'll become a VC and

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Speaker 2: funded dating service and you know whatever. They were all

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Speaker 2: so stupid, you were like, oh, I can't talk to you.

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Speaker 2: But Elon was always interesting well, and you know.

433
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: He single handedly gets the US with the government's help,

434
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 1: notably with massive government subsidies both at SpaceX and Tesla.

435
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 1: In different got alone.

436
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 2: It would have gone out of business without government help.

437
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 1: And he got government contracts from NASA at SpaceX.

438
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has them. He continues to he has.

439
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 1: Them, and it was sort of the foundation of his

440
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,160
Speaker 1: viability was getting those one one hundred percent.

441
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,679
Speaker 2: He's the biggest government handout person I know then a

442
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 2: good success.

443
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 1: Yay.

444
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 2: He literally is the ad for why government's good.

445
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: It's corporate welfare. But it's good corporate welfare. You know.

446
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: It created a world beating commercial space center, missile enterprise,

447
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 1: and rocket enterprise, and a transformative EV company, So kudos

448
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,120
Speaker 1: to him. Those aren't small things, oh they're not. Makes

449
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,120
Speaker 1: him the world's wealthiest man. And then he decides, as

450
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 1: I think he becomes increasingly erratic, he decides to buy

451
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: Twitter for forty four billion dollars. Right, he did, and

452
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 1: that's hardly the sign of someone who is a shrewd

453
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,640
Speaker 1: invest way.

454
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 2: Well we'll see, won't we Maybe he'll turn it around.

455
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 2: It was never a very good business, like let's start with.

456
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 2: It was a terrible business all of its life since

457
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 2: it was founded, and it was badly managed, except for

458
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 2: maybe Dick Costlow had a bit of a bright spot,

459
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 2: but it never reached the potential. Everybody thought it was you,

460
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 2: everyone thought it was Facebook.

461
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 1: It was never a Facebook in any scope.

462
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: Never made money for the users, never moved off of

463
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: nineteen dots, was always at nineteen dollars, I recall. But

464
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 2: it was badly managed.

465
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: So it wasn't necessarily a company he'd pay forty four

466
00:20:58,800 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: billion dollars.

467
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: No, I think it was. You know, it had a

468
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 2: high there during the pandemic. I think you know, who

469
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 2: knows why stock goes up or down, but you know

470
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: it definitely if you zeroed it out over the history

471
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 2: of it, you wouldn't have paid that. No, you wouldn't

472
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 2: have paid for that. But I thought he would do

473
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 2: a good job. I needed someone like him to come

474
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: in and be king of the place, rather than do you.

475
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: Really think he'd do a good job when he first

476
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: took it.

477
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 2: I did because it was a goat rodeo over there,

478
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: and it was all these CEOs that came in and

479
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 2: out and all these feelings. It was the most emotional

480
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: company you've ever deal with. You're sort of like, are

481
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: you kidding me? With all your various and sundry dramas

482
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: between each other, you know, all the founders and like

483
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 2: this founder, you know, it was really exhausting to cover them.

484
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 2: And again, it never met its potential of its influence.

485
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,360
Speaker 2: It had a lot of influence, but not a lot

486
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: of business and very difficult issues around same thing polarization.

487
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: They just didn't have the resources that Facebook did, and

488
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: so you know, anyone could come in and do something.

489
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: With it if they were the right person, right, and.

490
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 2: He certainly had the means and the motivation. He loved

491
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: the product. It obviously spoke to him in some deep

492
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: way personally and emotionally, and so I thought.

493
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 1: I had no experience, and I do think managing a

494
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: media company requires a certain comp.

495
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 2: Well, they try to pretend. I know, of course it is,

496
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 2: but they pretend it is it's a communications company. I

497
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: always thought it was a media company and thought that

498
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 2: was the direction it should go in. And I was

499
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: working with Twitter to actually monetize spaces and all this stuff.

500
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: And then he comes in and I thought, okay, all right.

501
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: We exchanged a bunch of emails about it. I was like,

502
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: all right, you've got the money, you got the attention,

503
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: you could bring in a smart media executive and really

504
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: do something. Finally, like one person making a decision, because again,

505
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: you know, I used to jokingly because I'm a lesbian,

506
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: I can say that it was like a lesbian collective,

507
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 2: Like no decisions were made ever, like everyone with feelings

508
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 2: were hurt all the time. That's a cliche, Lesbian's not true,

509
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: but it was really. There was a small handful of

510
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: people who could have brought order to the place. Instead,

511
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: it's his personality disorders writ large unfortunately.

512
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I think maybe we part ways on

513
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: that one because I thought in the very beginning he

514
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: was the worst sort of person to take Twitter over

515
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: because he lack the experiencing insight for that particular company.

516
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: I hid.

517
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: I thought, yes, the COVID stuff was strange.

518
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: The COVID denier. You know, I'm a free speech absolutist,

519
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 1: but meanwhile he's crushing free speech within his own company,

520
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: and he's going after people who criticize him.

521
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's critical textures. Well, when has that ever happened?

522
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it doesn't suggest you're the best guy to

523
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: run a media company.

524
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: All I was saying is one person making the decisions.

525
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: I thought he would hire a very smart meet executive

526
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: and get out of the way. But he didn't, because

527
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: this is about him and his personality, right, his larger

528
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: you know, emotional well being so to speak.

529
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: Did all of that sort of erratic behavior with him,

530
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: And you know, as he see investigates him for securities

531
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: broad for saying the saud He's going to help him

532
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: take Tesla private. That seems to have definitely all been

533
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: built on smoke. Did any of that surprise you over

534
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: the arc of time from when you first met him

535
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 1: to who.

536
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: He is now, Yes and no, like you saw it there.

537
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: You know, he had a juvenile interest in memes and

538
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: especially move memes, and I had teenage boys at the time.

539
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, look it's another one, you know, so

540
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: I had recognized the pattern. You know, he had a

541
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: lot of juvenilia, like very much sort of like stupid jokes.

542
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: You know. The COVID thing was the first time I

543
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 2: was like, huh, that's weird. You know, that's weird. And

544
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: then those stuff at the factories around racism and stuff

545
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 2: like that started to pop up. You know, he wasn't

546
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: that different from other ones. And actually he was somewhat

547
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: I would say, delightful to talk to because he was

548
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: very odd and interesting and he had you know, again,

549
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: he was the first person who talked about the dangers

550
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: of AI. This was a decade and a half ago, right,

551
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: a long time ago, and nobody was talking about that.

552
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: They were all talking about whatever the latest stupid trend

553
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: was for the day, and he wasn't. He was very

554
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 2: prescient about a lot of stuff, including cars, and space

555
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: and everything else, and so you'd see flashes of it.

556
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: I always say, like about ten percent of his personality

557
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: was really distasteful, I guess, and the rest was really interesting.

558
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: And with all the caveats you have about these egomaniacal, arrogant,

559
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: narcissistic founders. And then something happened, something turned. It's like

560
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: milk spoiled. Everything became about victimization. He felt under siege.

561
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 2: I know it sounds dumb.

562
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: Do you think that's a different turn than the turn

563
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg took.

564
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: I don't think Juckberg's changed personally, No, I don't. I

565
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: think he's matured and he's developed as a man, I think.

566
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: And in terms of elon he went backwards. He's like

567
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: Benjamin Button, you know, except the jerk, the jerkish Benjamin Button.

568
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: And so those parts of his personality as he got

569
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 2: to be the richest man in the world, and especially

570
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: with enablers or the wrong people around him, started to

571
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: get really ugly. Just these people, all of whom are

572
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: paid by him. And you know, this idea of all

573
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 2: these fans like licking him up and down. It's affected

574
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: his personality, you know, and including his family relationships with

575
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: his now daughter. You know, if you talk to people

576
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 2: around him, and they'll only talk off the record because

577
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: they're terrified of getting off the gravy train. They are worried.

578
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 2: They are worried about that. But you know, they all

579
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 2: allow it to happen because he's the center. He's the

580
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: son of a particular universe and very powerful. It's so classic,

581
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: you know, it's classic with royalty. It's you know, this

582
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: is not a news story.

583
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: It's how power functions.

584
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: Well some power, but like kings, they get a little nutty,

585
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like it just happens when

586
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: nobody says, hey, just a second, and anyone who said hey,

587
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: just a second, he's thrown out of the kingdom, myself included.

588
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: You know whatever, I don't care. I have plenty of friends.

589
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to take another break care and then we'll

590
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: come right back. I'm back with Kars Swisher. We're talking

591
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: about tech bros and tech brodom. I asked you this earlier,

592
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: and I want to come back to the degree to

593
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: which Zuckerberg and Musque aren't that much different from their

594
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: compatriots in Silicon Valley. I think of Jack Dorsey as

595
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: sort of a junior mint version of this. You know,

596
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 1: somehow they let him be the CEO of two companies simultaneously.

597
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: They did.

598
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't really good at being the CEO of one company,

599
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: much less too, but he got away with it. You

600
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: don't see many women or executives of color anywhere in

601
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: the US being granted those sorts of opportunities and second chances.

602
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: And then, you know, I do think of Tim Cook

603
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: as a sort of the polar opposite of both of

604
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: these guys. And I think there's a lesson in that

605
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: about how you manage the trajectory of successful companies. That

606
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: maybe you need these crazy geniuses who are completely self

607
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: assured for a certain part of the company's trajectory, but

608
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 1: then the grown ups have to come in and put

609
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: their hands on the steering wheel and move it along.

610
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that or do you think that's

611
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: too simple?

612
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: As I do think it's too similar, because I think

613
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: Tim was there from the beginning of the recovery of Apple, right,

614
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: So it wasn't like he just was brought in to

615
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 2: deal with difficult Steve just Sue Jobs was a great manager, right,

616
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like, and so was Jeff Bezos,

617
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 2: lots of mistakes made by both of them, and.

618
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: In fact, Steve jobs knew Tim Cook was somebody he

619
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: needed to have there must.

620
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 2: So yeah, there were a lot of choices at that company,

621
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: but he picked the one who I think, you know, typically,

622
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 2: I remember when he died, everyone was like, oh, not

623
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: this guy, this boring guy, this guy, this guy, And

624
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know, I feel like he's

625
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: been running what's been important to that company, creativity. There's

626
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: a lot of creative people there. So this myth of

627
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: the one god who can solve everything, I think is

628
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: not a new and front. You remember Leiahkca only he

629
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: could do it. It's sort of part of the corporate

630
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: mental well again, but in that case, yes, right until

631
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: no speaking to someone who had really distasteful opinions about

632
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: Jewish people, et cetera. Think about that today. I just

633
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: think Twitter was around for a lot of these people. Yeah.

634
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there would have been reputations in flames much earlier.

635
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe, but now it doesn't matter. You can be shameless,

636
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, and I think Donald Trump introduced that you

637
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: can be shameless and you actually do better.

638
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: And it's celebrated. In fact, in certain cases.

639
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I always love when they all

640
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: do this fight the man. I'm like, you are the

641
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: fucking man, Like you know what i mean, Like, that's

642
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: my favorite. I'm like, I'm sorry, but you know, revolutions

643
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: in Rome, the people who helped overthrow the Republic were

644
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: some of its nobles, right, the Cracktree brothers. I think

645
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: that's their names.

646
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: You know.

647
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: That often happens, you know, or Donald Trump. I'm with you,

648
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 2: people of Goal Mining Country. I'm like, are you kidding me?

649
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: You live in a golden palace in New York City

650
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: and Manhattan. But that's okay. It works for people, right,

651
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: I'm your friend. And so you have to create this

652
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: very pet Barnum like structure around you where you have

653
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: to overstate you're already myriad of accomplishments in order to

654
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: engender more love and more attention and everything else. And

655
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: one of the things I like about Mark is I

656
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: don't think, except for his kickboxing, which is fine, you know,

657
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: he doesn't really seek attention. I think he's kind of

658
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: proud of it. I guess I don't feel irritated by that,

659
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: And I'm not particularly irritated by Jeff Bezos putting up

660
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: chest shots of himself. You look good, Jeff, Okay, you

661
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: should be happy with just that you look good, But

662
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: I'm okay. I'm like, okay, he's proud of his nice

663
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: physique now because he used to be kind of wimpy looking,

664
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: and those are fine. But Elon needs attention every day,

665
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: so I has to do you know, another stunt that's

666
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: even crazier. You feel like you're in the middle of network,

667
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: the movie network. Right, What am I going to do today? Oh,

668
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: let's attack the Jews. Oh today, trans people. Let's not

669
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: forget I have a trans child, and so it's even

670
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: more heinous to do that. Today, Let's attack you know,

671
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: Paul Pelosi saying he's part of a gay love triangle

672
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: with no proof whatsoever, and too bad if people get hurt.

673
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: Or today it's you know, Biden's fault. Today it's reporter's fault.

674
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: Like whoever like or say something crazy and everybody pays

675
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: attention to you. It's really sad when you think about it,

676
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: because there are accomplishments here, real accomplishments.

677
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: World changing accomplishments are both of their sides, but.

678
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: They're not as big as they think they are, but

679
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: they're big. Like they're big, but they're not that big.

680
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: Elon is thirteen years older than Zuckerberg, yet he's far

681
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: more of a juvenile delinquent in my humble estimation, and

682
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: it sort of surprised me when Zuckerberg took the bait recently.

683
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: I did too.

684
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: I did too.

685
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: I'll go, I'll do a case match with you. We

686
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: can fight one another.

687
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: I think he's really enthusiastic about it. I do think

688
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: he really loves it. It's given him, you know, just.

689
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: Like the pickleball.

690
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: It's like pickleball. I have friends who've now become really

691
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: pickleball fanatics, and you're like, calm the fuck down. It's

692
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: just a game. But they love it. It changed their lives,

693
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: you know.

694
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, But there's a little difference again, Let's go

695
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: play pickleball on Friday night as to let's beat the

696
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: hell out of each other in a cage. I think

697
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: there's sort of a qualitative.

698
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: It's something look he feels, but I don't look at

699
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: you know what.

700
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: It is not as sport. I think the difference between

701
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: not as sports.

702
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: I'd say the difference between them is parenting. I know,

703
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: I know, I've come back to it. But his parents

704
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: are very nice. I would not say that of Elon's parents.

705
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: I think he had a very troubled childhood. I think

706
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 2: a lot of that's going to come out in this

707
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: book by Walter Isaacson that said, not everyone who has

708
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: troubled childhoods turns out to be such an asshole. Right,

709
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: You don't have to become an asshole if you have

710
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: a troubled childhood. But I do think there is a

711
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: difference in upbringing with those two in a lot of ways.

712
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: But I do want to come act for one last

713
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: second on the cage match because it's stupid. It to

714
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: me is it's stupid, but it's also emblematic. It is

715
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: emblematic of the sort of excess and mitchismo and juvenile

716
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: delinquency that pervades Silicon Valley despite its successes. In rich

717
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: it was so ridiculous, etc.

718
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: I actually wrote Mark, I said, please, look, I know

719
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: you think we haven't gotten along for a long time

720
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 2: before because he thinks I'm too critical of the company,

721
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: which okay, whatever, And we had that disastrous interview where

722
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: he's sweat and stuff. So I can see why he

723
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: avoids me, but don't do this. You have daughters, you

724
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: seem to be a pretty decent parent and a very

725
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: decent husband. What are you doing? Like, I'm glad you

726
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: like your sport, but this is ridiculous, fucking spectacle. And

727
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: if you want to raise money, just give part of

728
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: your giant, ridiculous, obscene fortune to someone like you. Don't

729
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 2: need to do this.

730
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: And so you know, so did he send you a

731
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: selfie of his bicyc No, he didn't any response, He

732
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: didn't respond.

733
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: But can you imagine Gates and Jobs fighting. Let's have

734
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: a fight, Like No, they just what they did as

735
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: they did an interview with me and Walt Moosburg. That

736
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: was great, that was amazing. That was adult, right, you know.

737
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: They had their problem because it was coming together.

738
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: That's right. It was epic. They put aside their differences

739
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: and realized they realized they were together as icons of

740
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: the modern computer age. Together, they really were the two

741
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: just like John Adams and Tupman's Jefferson.

742
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: They belonged to I call that interview. Jobs pointed out

743
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: that Microsoft gave one hundred million dollars to Apple when

744
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: it was flailing, and he posticates.

745
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: A bit too, But it was fine. It was fine,

746
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: but at the end it was he understood because he's

747
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: an adult, and so is Bill Gates, you know, and

748
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: could just imagine them fighting.

749
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: Oh, come back. I can't imagine Zuckerberg and Musco on

750
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: a stage together. And this gets back to my early point.

751
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: I can see Hewlett and Packard on a stage together.

752
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: I could see Harvey Firestone and Thomas Edison on a

753
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: stage together. Are I can't imagine Zuckerberg and Musco on

754
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: a stage together. And in fact, all I'm thinking about

755
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: is that they're jumping around on pogo sticks, challenging each

756
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: other to a cage.

757
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: Matt Well, it was really Musk that was doing it right,

758
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: you know. And then he continued it with his weird

759
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: I'll show up at your house, which is creepy, just

760
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: fucking creepy. But it was all just look at me,

761
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: look at me, someone, please, for the love of God,

762
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: look at me, because I still don't have enough attence.

763
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: You know. And of course it happened after Zuckerberg launched Threads,

764
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: which was a challenge to Twitter, which is now called x. Yeah.

765
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: In the case of Zuckerberg, I don't think he has

766
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: a bottomless well of need. The way musk does. I

767
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: do think he has a satisfying personal life. So I

768
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: just was surprised he was dragged into it. And I

769
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: don't know why he was. I guess he's so proud

770
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: of what he's done with himself that he's doing it.

771
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: But you know, I think suddenly the penny dropped. Oh wait,

772
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 2: maybe this guy isn't serious, right, Maybe he's making fun

773
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: of a sport I like, or you don't call his

774
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: sport whatever and endeavor I like. And so I just

775
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: was surprised. I'm so glad he's not doing it. And

776
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: of course then he was welcome to the lying world

777
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: of Elon. I've got Rome on the line. The coliseum

778
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: is open, like what like he just says shit and

779
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: then everyone's like, yeah, like, give me a break. There's

780
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: a famous expression from Hollywood. Hello he lied. So I

781
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 2: just feel like, maybe if he's telling you is maybe

782
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: he's not. I just wouldn't believe anything. And I think

783
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: Mark was taken in in that regard.

784
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: Linda oapst that to her, it's a great line. So

785
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley is still very male and it's very white.

786
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: Are tech bros? And is that status quo a forever phenomena.

787
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, what's going to change what's changed in our society?

788
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: Well, that's when I'm asking you, like, what would change that?

789
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think our overall society is like that.

790
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 2: Look at most of the attacks when women are led

791
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: by men right now, like about abortion rights and everything else.

792
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: I just you know, as long as there's not equal

793
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: numbers of women in power, and not every woman has

794
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: to agree. There's a lot of anti abortion activists or

795
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: women some of the more powerful ones too. But you know,

796
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: it's just wherever you go, there you are. If you

797
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: have one point of view and you're homogenious about it,

798
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: you're going to have one point of view. You're not

799
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: going to reflect other people, and then you become less

800
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: and less sympathetic and you think your viewpoint is the

801
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: only viewpoint. Now we're all guilty of that, right, everyone

802
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: of us is skuilty of that, and we have to

803
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: try really hard to get out of these silos that

804
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: we have, and we don't because we're very comfortable in them.

805
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: But when you have that much power and you do it,

806
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: I think it's incumbent on you to reach across lines

807
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: and not demonize people. And you know, with all the

808
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: power and influence and money muscast, all he does is

809
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 2: pick fucking fights all day, and all I can think

810
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: of is, what the hell is wrong with you? Like,

811
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: how did you get this way? It's disappointing because of

812
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: the good he could do. He obviously has skills, but

813
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 2: instead he's decided that his lesser nature is the one

814
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: he's going to feed.

815
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: Caer I always like to ask guests what they've learned

816
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: from an event. If you think about watching the arc

817
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: of Elon and Zuck's journeys, what have you learned? What

818
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: have those things taught you?

819
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: That power corrupts? It just does. It's such a cliche.

820
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: It just does. Money and power corrupt and you have

821
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: to be a very strong personality to resist it. And

822
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: there's so many great hopes of what tech could do,

823
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: and instead of doing that, spending your time doing this

824
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: seems sad. It really does. It seems sad to me.

825
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: And there's so much potential to help people. There's so

826
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: much potential to be kind, and unfortunately where we've gotten

827
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 2: is these people, not all of them, I don't want

828
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: to paint a broad brush, but a lot of them

829
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: forgot why they came in the first place, which was

830
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: a great love of tech like I have, and others

831
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 2: having a great love of the possibilities. And my book's

832
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: coming out in March, and at the beginning of it,

833
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: I talk about a quote from Steve Jobs. I had

834
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: this idea that you are either a Star Trek or

835
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: a Star Wars person, because you know, tech people love

836
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: sci fi and you know Star Wars is a very

837
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: dark view of the universe where they evil often and

838
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: regularly triumphs. Right that everything's quite a dark vision what

839
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: Star Wars is. It's not a hopeful vision in any

840
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: way if you really take it apart, and Star Trek

841
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: is it's like a Benetton ad. We are going to

842
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: get along, We're going to beat villains, and villains are

843
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: going to come on our side in fact, you know

844
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: what I mean. And it's a sort of a hopeful

845
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: humanity gets better and better and better, and we improve ourselves.

846
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: And it's a Wars you never know the next episode

847
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: might be the last. And so there was an interview

848
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: I did with Steve Jobs where he said, I want

849
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: Star Trek. I wish we could get Star Trek, and

850
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: I feel the same way. And we live in Star Wars.

851
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: That's where we live now, and we've got Darth Vaders everywhere,

852
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: and not redeemable Darth Vaders, just Darth Vaders that stay

853
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: that way. And so that's how I think about it.

854
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: I just am really, I'm sorry. I want Star Trek too,

855
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: you know, as Steve said.

856
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: I want Star Trek too. We're out of time. Kara,

857
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today.

858
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Tam for a thoughtful conversation. I

859
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: appreciate it.

860
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: Kara Swisher is the host of The On with Kara

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Speaker 1: Swisher and Pivot podcasts, and she's an editor at large

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Speaker 1: at New York Magazine. Next spring, she has a new

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Speaker 1: book coming out, burn Book, a Tech Love Story. You

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Speaker 1: can find her on Twitter at Kara Swisher Here at

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Speaker 1: crash Course, we believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising,

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Speaker 1: always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley's tech bros. May have a hammer lock on Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley's riches and its businesses longer than I expected. What

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Speaker 1: did you learn? We'd love to hear from you. You

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Speaker 1: can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion handle at opinion or

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Speaker 1: me at Tim O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course.

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Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening

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Speaker 1: right now, and please leave us a review. It helps

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Speaker 1: more people find the show. This episode was produced by

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Speaker 1: the indispensable Anna Maserakas, Moses On Dam and Me. Our

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Speaker 1: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing help

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Speaker 1: from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nizza, and

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Speaker 1: Christine Vanden Bilart. Blake Maples says, our sound engineering and

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Speaker 1: our original theme song was composed by Luis Gara. I'm

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Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week with another Crash

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Speaker 1: Course