1 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller. Uh So, today 2 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: we are talking about what began with the discovery of 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: several bodies along a quiet stretch of Gilgo Beach, Long Island, 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: soon became one of the most unsettling mysteries in true crime. 5 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: So filmmaker Josh Zeeman and Rachel Mills sha do that again, 6 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: Josh Zeemon or Zaemon Zeman, Okay. But for filmmaker Josh 7 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: Zemon and Rachel Mills, the deeper they investigated, the more 8 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: they realized that this was not just a story of 9 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: one serial killer. It was a story of victims whose 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: disappearance had been overlooked, families still searching for answers, and 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: a system that had left too many questions unanswered. We 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: are going to talk to the director Josh today, which 13 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to do. This was an unbelievable documentary 14 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: and really highlighted how certain victims in our society are overlooked. 15 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: In this case, the victims were sex workers. So let's 16 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: bring Josh in. He worked on this documentary for a 17 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: long time. It took him to different states, different murders, 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: so let's bring him in. Hello, Josh Zeman, Hi, how 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: are you Hi, Thank you for joining. 20 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: Us, Thanks for having me, much appreciated. 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: Thank what an incredible documentary you and Rachel put together. 22 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: Wow, oh, thank you. 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: Really captivating and crazy. And I see behind you the 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: Son of Sam poster and I know you did a 25 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: documentary on that as well, but that I was living 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: on Long Island, really yeah, and I used to I 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: remember just as a little girl, I must have been 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: four or five, but being so scared when my mother 29 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: left the house because I remember he hunted right like 30 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: was it young woman with long hair? 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: Not that this is about that particular documentary, but. 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: Brown hair brand, well it is. 33 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 4: It is relevant because the fiftieth anniversary of the Son 34 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 4: of Sam shootings is coming up in nineteen seventy seven, 35 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 4: so you know, the fiftieth year anniversary, and the first shooting, 36 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 4: which actually happened in nineteen seventy six, is happened on 37 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 4: the twenty ninth of July, so we're about to come 38 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 4: up on that anniversary. And I think that it's been 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 4: fifty years, which is amazing. And these are just part 40 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 4: of the stories, the lore that we have in you know, 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 4: New York City of unique. 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: Crimes, well like the go Go Beach murders. And are 43 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 3: you a Long Island boy? 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: Is that. 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 3: I'm guessing? 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: Yes. 47 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 4: I was born in Long Island, Jewish And although I 48 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 4: moved to Staten Island and I did another movie about 49 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 4: that called Cropsy, I spent some time in Long Island 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 4: and my parents lived in Long Island. 51 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: It's just Long Island. If you're from New York, you 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: know Long Island is part of who you are. 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I was. 54 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: We moved when I was nine, but I was living 55 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: on Long Island until then. Well Westbury and Jericho, Oh yeah, yeah, 56 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: how about. 57 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: You Seacliff, which is a nice little town up on 58 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 4: the north Shore. It was there till I was eight, 59 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 4: and then my dad moved back to Port Jefferson, Yeah, 60 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 4: which is not actually, which is kind of right in 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 4: the middle. And Long Island is just the source of 62 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 4: so many interesting myths and lore streams. 63 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: Right, agreed. Thing started out, yes, right, right. 64 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: Right, all right, So let me try to focus here. 65 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this incredible documentary. What drew 66 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: you to besides being from Long Island, what drew you 67 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: to the Gilgo Beach murders. 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 4: Well, at the time, so we did a documentary series 69 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen called the Killing Season. At the time, 70 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 4: it was incredible to us that here was that's. 71 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: What we're talking about, by the way today, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 72 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: two thousand. It's a long time ago, I know when 73 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: you made it, and it's crazy what's happened recently. 74 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 4: Right, It all becomes relative, And that's the interesting thing 75 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 4: about being a documentary filmmaker, you know. But at the time, 76 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: we were talking about the murders of at least ten 77 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 4: individuals found in this kind of trophy garden on Long Island. 78 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 4: It was somewhat out of a movie, you know, the 79 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: way in which this serial killer had emerged, the Go 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 4: Go Beach serial killer. But it was the fact that 81 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 4: the police weren't talking to anybody. They weren't talking to 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 4: the families, they weren't talking to the public about what 83 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 4: was going on when there's so many victims, and this 84 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 4: was all happening in the shadow of New York City. 85 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: So that just seemed inconceivable to us. 86 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 4: How this wasn't a bigger story, and how these victims 87 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 4: weren't being truble. 88 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: Brought it to you. 89 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: How did you all of a sudden like why as 90 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: a documentarian, as a filmmaker, what about that? Because nobody 91 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 1: else was really keyed into it. It feels like because 92 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: they the victims were a certain type a woman. 93 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: Right, sex workers for sex worker, But. 94 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: What made you so aware of that and want like 95 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: what made you want to focus on it when so 96 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: many didn't. 97 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 4: Because they didn't understand it? Because I didn't understand why 98 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 4: people weren't talking about it. How can you talk about this? Yeah, 99 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 4: a horrific tragedy of these women. And obviously, as a filmmaker, 100 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,119 Speaker 4: I'm very much into crime, true crime, but I'm also 101 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 4: into true crime with an eye towards broken systems because 102 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 4: I think that's what sparks a lot of true crime, 103 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 4: and we don't really talk about that. At the time, 104 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 4: we hadn't talked about that, and the time, we hadn't 105 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 4: talked about the misogyny or you know, the prejudice around 106 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: these victims. I mean, you know, just because they're sex workers, 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: you know, and many of them didn't choose work. Sometimes 108 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 4: it was survival work, not sex work. It survival work. 109 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: Trying to pay either way, I don't think it matters, yeah, right, relevant. 110 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 4: And so these were people just trying to you know, 111 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 4: live the American dream and at the time, the economics 112 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 4: were horrible. Also, we had the opioid epidemic that was 113 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 4: burning through the United States, and so it was an 114 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 4: important thing. But there was another interesting factor here. A 115 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 4: lot of these crimes happened via the Internet, via Backpage 116 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 4: and Craigslist. So this was a new way in which 117 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 4: we're seeing this very age old story, right, almost like 118 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 4: Jack the Ripper, you know, a killer going after these 119 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 4: vulnerable victims, sex workers, but now using the internet. And 120 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: a lot of people thought at the time that the 121 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 4: Internet would make this all safer, but it actually, right, 122 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 4: far more dangerous. That added another layer of anonymity that 123 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: was really terrifying. 124 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I had never even heard of Backpage 125 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: until I watched the documentary, and obviously I've heard of Craigslust, 126 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: but I remember, you know, this is this is going 127 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: back quite a while, and right like that was the 128 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: idea that the Internet was going to, you know, make 129 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: things safer. But I remember telling my kids, telling my kids, 130 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: even though that was the big fear, right that they 131 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: were going to be contacted by some pedophile. Yes, they 132 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't know it, and and obviously that was but that 133 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: was sort of the focus. I feel like it was 134 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: more about kids getting you know, contacted and making bad 135 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: mistakes as opposed to these adult women that were doing 136 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: it for a living. Right, they were putting their profiles 137 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: up on what you know, backpage or Craigslist to make money, 138 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, to find guys that would whatever they were, 139 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: they were prostitutes. And but yeah, that part of it 140 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: is very interesting to me in the way also that 141 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: the serial killers could not just in Gilgi Beach. 142 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, these men could find these they could go 143 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 4: shopping on the internet for the perfect victim, and and 144 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 4: that becomes very terrifying. And everybody thought, originally, oh, he's 145 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 4: going to get caught so soon because of the internet. 146 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 4: Be oh the IP, We're going to be able to 147 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: track the IP and just real, real life is not 148 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 4: an episode of uh, you know TV. 149 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: It's not you know, homicide on the street or whatever. 150 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: So that was it. 151 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 4: And then but there was another layer, which was the 152 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: fact that the police weren't talking to these victims families 153 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 4: and they weren't right seemingly letting the public. 154 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Know, right, So I couldn't Yeah, I couldn't get over it. 155 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: How neither conflected right. 156 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 3: Even and especially I loved how you. 157 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: Connected with so many of the families and introduced us, 158 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, as viewers to them. There were so many 159 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: that where my heart was just breaking for them. But 160 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, specifically, God, I'm gonna forget her name. 161 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: The daughter Amanda, yes, yeah, who. 162 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: Went with you guys and really wanted to be part. 163 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: Of oh I know you're talking about in Dayton. 164 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, and wanted to help because she felt 165 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: like she was never helped, like this happened to her 166 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: mother when she was young, and that was it. There 167 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: was no follow up, there was no search, there was nothing. 168 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: And the way that she articulated that, I just thought 169 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: it was incredible and brave. And so many of these 170 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: families that came, you know forward, and a lot of 171 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: them had been also affected by drugs and you know, 172 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: were sex workers as well, and but you got to 173 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: see the humanity of it and so upsetting that these 174 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: cases were ignored. 175 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: It's like there, but go for the there for sure 176 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: for sure, and any one of us could could find 177 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 4: ourselves in any one of those situations. 178 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: So it was also that part of it. 179 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 4: But then there was another very interesting thing because because 180 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 4: the police weren't talking about the case publicly they weren't, 181 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 4: I understand, not sharing specific information, but just giving people updates. 182 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 4: You know, you need to do that as a police department. 183 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 4: So what happened was it turned into a lot of 184 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 4: rumors and speculation, and that focused also on the Internet, 185 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: and at the time we had it was the rise 186 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 4: of the armchair sleuth, whether it was web sluice, and 187 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: so you had a lot of people speculating, and you 188 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 4: had a lot of people trying to solve the crimes 189 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 4: that they believe the police were not doing and that 190 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: and as it turns out, they that was the most 191 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 4: shocking part of it. There was a lot of you know, hyperbole. 192 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 4: There were a lot of rumors, but and we realized 193 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 4: something was wrong. I don't think we realized the depth 194 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 4: of how bad it was, how much corruption there was, 195 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 4: and the extent which they didn't very much. 196 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: They obstructed justice in this case. 197 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: And the question is yeah, not just on Long Island, right, 198 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: which I could not get over. And I also couldn't 199 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: get over some of these slewice feeling like they were 200 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: so they weren't professional investigators and yet they were so 201 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: keyed in even to you know, the patterns killers and 202 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: what they do and I never heard of the term 203 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: trophy garden before, right, and how they could actually aid 204 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: in focusing on the right person and how and knowing 205 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: what the guy's name, the older guy. I'm sorry, I'm 206 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: like bread, it's all the one, yes, the one that was. 207 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: The German guy. 208 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 209 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: Out of central casting. 210 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what he looked like. But he 211 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: was pretty incredible. 212 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: But the way the tips that he was giving, in 213 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: the way he could help you all to focus in 214 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: the right direction, right, and you well, I was I 215 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: wonder do the police are they even interested in people 216 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: like this who are really sort of become experts and 217 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: they have so much information to share, you know. 218 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: I think a lot of it is that the police 219 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,359 Speaker 4: are overwhelmed, you know, obviously, rank and file, overworked, underpaid. 220 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 4: By the way, in Long Island they are the second 221 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 4: highest Seffac County. They are the second highest paid police 222 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 4: force in the United States. 223 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: I have a nephew who's a police and yeah, so, but. 224 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 4: The rank and file, you know, that are overworked for 225 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 4: the most part. In a lot of these cities, solving 226 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: murders has become far more difficult because of stranger on 227 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 4: stranger crime. 228 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: It's just not the way it used to be. 229 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 4: And so when you have a police force that is 230 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 4: overworked or isn't talking to other police agencies like we 231 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 4: think that are, it becomes really difficult to solve these crimes. 232 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 4: And so what you have is a number of dedicated 233 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 4: individuals who are just spending all of their time looking 234 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 4: at all the details, finding ways to extrapolate the data online, 235 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 4: which is another thing, using computers, using AI, using you know, 236 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 4: that data in ways that police just can't. They don't 237 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: have the training, they're they're too busy, you know, trying 238 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 4: to solve all the crimes. And so we do have 239 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 4: to look to these individuals that some of them are 240 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 4: wicked smart and and they're dedicated. Really at the end 241 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: of the day, it's dedication. 242 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: Right, right, It's a commitment. 243 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: And so sad that it seems that the you know, 244 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: police were not dedicated in these cases, and not just 245 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: on Long Island. 246 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah right. 247 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: And how did how did you start to you know, 248 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: put together that this is possibly not just one person 249 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: that's doing you know, the murdering that how and how 250 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: did that change the direction of your investigation. 251 00:12:58,880 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 3: We'll call them investigation. 252 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 4: So to be frank, you know, the part of being 253 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 4: a documentary filmmaker and trying to do stories about broken systems, you. 254 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: Also have to try and sell it to the network. 255 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 4: And the network of course they want, you know, oh 256 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 4: my god, is it one super duper serial killer who's 257 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: going around the United States killing all these individuals and so, 258 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: and that's how some people on websites presented it. And 259 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 4: we use that, you might say, to get into a 260 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 4: story of a larger broken systems. And the reality is 261 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: is that it's not one super duper hannibal elect or 262 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 4: serial killer. There's a lot of bad individuals out there. 263 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: There's a lot of bad men, to be honest, killing women, 264 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: vulnerable women, you know, committing violence to get these women. 265 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,239 Speaker 4: So we kind of use that somewhat you know, fictional 266 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: setting to get into these much more important stories and 267 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 4: stories about you know, the men who are doing this 268 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 4: and the police departments that are unfortunately a lot of 269 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 4: them were being investigated by the police, by the federal government. 270 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 4: It was very interesting to find out that and this 271 00:13:58,600 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 4: goes for Long Island and. 272 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: Rex who as well. 273 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 4: A lot of these guys do this not because yes, 274 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 4: you know, they're this crazed individual who can't help themselves, 275 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 4: you know, like we see on TV from doing it. 276 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: That's one part of it. 277 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 4: But the other part of it is they are still 278 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 4: you know, want to keep on killing. They don't want 279 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 4: to get caught necessarily, so they do this in places 280 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 4: where they think they can get away with it. It's 281 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 4: about you know, it's like your five year old, what 282 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 4: can they get away with? 283 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: And the way there's that lap sometimes in between the 284 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: serial killings. How then they go and they live their 285 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: life and they get married and they have kids and 286 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: they but they're just waiting for the next opportunity or the. 287 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: Next stressor comes up that then. 288 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: Oh would drive them to it. 289 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, they think they can. 290 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 4: You know, it's like an alcoholic, you know, it's like 291 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 4: a functioning alcoholic like, Okay, you know, I'm gonna I'm 292 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 4: going to keep it together. I'm going to keep together 293 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 4: until the next stresser comes and then you know, something 294 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 4: happens and you find yourself drunk driving, in a car 295 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 4: accident or in jail. It's kind of life that's compulsion. 296 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 4: So but the point is is it's about some of 297 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 4: these police departments. Of course they are. I'm very pro 298 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 4: police and there are there's far more. You know, great 299 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 4: costs are bad apples. But when you have a police 300 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 4: department that isn't focused on community policing, you have individuals 301 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 4: like this who think they can get away with it. 302 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 4: And what we've always said about Rex Huerman, who's a 303 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 4: Long Island serial killer, is that maybe his greatest. 304 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: Thing that he ever did. 305 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 4: Was pick Long Island because that allowed him to get 306 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 4: away with killing for so long. 307 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: Why why do you think it was? It was so 308 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: that Long Island was so ripe for that. 309 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 4: Because well, at least in Suffolk County, because what he 310 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 4: didn't know but helped him was that there was a 311 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 4: police chief at the time, James Burke, who had been 312 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 4: soliciting sex workers, partying with sex workers, had very had 313 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 4: deep relationships with sex workers, and who had been so 314 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: corrupt that he didn't even want the FBI help him 315 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 4: because he didn't want the FBI to find out about 316 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: other various things that he was doing. So how lucky 317 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 4: for a serial killer that he finds a police chief 318 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 4: that basically kicks the FBI out of the case. And 319 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 4: you know, you had a police chief and a district 320 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 4: attorney literally go to jail during this time. 321 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, the unheard of exactly. 322 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: Das don't go to jail all the time. That is 323 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: a very you have to be really bad. 324 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: You know. 325 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: Josh has freaked me out. 326 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: Also, you guys started to talk about the numbers in 327 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: terms of how many serial killers there are, and that 328 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: freaked me out because again I get, well, now that 329 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: I do these documentaries, I'm now I'm waking up to 330 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: the idea that there are so many. But I would 331 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: say before I thought that they were just like you know, 332 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: the Son of Sam, Like they're not right. And then 333 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: you see the stories on television and you see or 334 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: whatever films are made, and it you don't realize how 335 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: many there are and how many that don't get caught. 336 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: It's really really scary, I think. And I in doing 337 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: and interviewing someone else recently on the pod, another director, 338 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: so you probably know about this. So it is easier 339 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: now to get away with crime, even with the Internet, 340 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: even with DNA right than it was however many years ago, 341 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: And it's significantly easier. 342 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, our softw rates have plummetedumbing. 343 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: How is that? 344 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: And I don't get it like with you would think 345 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: with DNA, with the Internet, it would get easier, and 346 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: it's gotten. 347 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 4: Harder because we live in a more outamized society. And 348 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 4: you know, it used to be with them when the 349 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: cop went into the the detective went into the community, 350 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: somebody knew somebody crimes of passion. 351 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: Oh yes, my neighbor. 352 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: And then when you just don't know your neighbors as much, 353 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: you know, when you're not in that we don't have 354 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 4: that same amount of community, it gets much harder. And 355 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 4: that's one reason, you know, it's it's it's really terrifying. 356 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 4: The other issue is this, and this is where we 357 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 4: go to at the end. You would think the way 358 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 4: fictional TV presents everything that we live in a very 359 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 4: connected world where all this data is available at the fingertips, 360 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 4: But that's not actually true. There are over fifteen thousand 361 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 4: different police forces in the United States and not one 362 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 4: of them is federally mandated to send the FBI it's 363 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 4: murder statistics. 364 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that when you talked about that in 365 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: the documentary. 366 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense. Yeah, I mean, what right, what 367 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 3: is preventing that? Why is and the program that was developed. 368 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: Again bypass is the name of the program? 369 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 3: Yes, isn't Why isn't that mandatory? 370 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: Because data is dangerous. 371 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 4: If you have a police chief who is not solving 372 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 4: crimes and who is not really hammering his department to 373 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 4: solve these crimes, you're basically forcing him to give up 374 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 4: the data to prove that he's not doing his job. 375 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 4: Many people don't like to do that, you know, they 376 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 4: don't like to be held accountable. 377 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: Police departments don't like to be held accountable. 378 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: But why wouldn't it be like it's a national issue, right, 379 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: Why do those Why do the police chiefs get to 380 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: make those decisions about a program that should be national? 381 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 4: Great question, you know you're gonna have, you know, we 382 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 4: need to hold our police departments accountable. It was very 383 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 4: interesting when you look at policing. This is the CompStat 384 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 4: program that happened in New York City Giuliani Jack Maple 385 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 4: back in the day when Giuliani was hardened to crime. 386 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 4: They were using all these statistics and organized in a 387 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: computer system called CompStat, and they would literally see the 388 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 4: amount of burglaries, all these different crimes, rapes, and they 389 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 4: would this is like a fable story in New York 390 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 4: City crime where they would call these precinct commanders up 391 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 4: in the a little bit in the like, have a 392 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: meeting and call them up, and these precinct commanders would 393 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 4: be crying by the end of it because they would 394 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 4: be like, you know, the data proved that they were 395 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 4: or were not doing their jobs correctly, and every week 396 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 4: they would go after them. Why are these many ribs? 397 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 4: What's going on here? You need to solve this? And 398 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 4: so we don't hold our law enforcement to the same accountability. 399 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 4: But if we did, we would reduce crime. 400 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that we would reduce it significantly enough 401 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: that those statistics would change and we would actually solve 402 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: more crime than we used to. Absolutely, and without that, 403 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: don't you think that's the biggest issue right there? 404 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 4: Data doesn't the devil's in the details. The data doesn't lie, 405 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 4: you know, but not even that. When you are in 406 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 4: self preservation mode, when you are not handing over the data, 407 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 4: you are limiting the ability for the computer to make 408 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 4: those connections, algorithms to make those connections. 409 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: Linkage blindness. 410 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 4: You don't get to see, so you don't get to 411 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 4: see the highway serial killer who's dropping off victims from 412 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 4: state to state to state. I couldn't believe that this 413 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 4: was happening. I was like, like. 414 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: This is not the nineteen seventies. We're today. 415 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 4: We should all be like holding hands and singing Kumbai, 416 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 4: yeah about trying to solve crimes, and yet we're not. 417 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 4: And that's what's really frustrating. What's frustrating is the answers 418 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 4: are there. 419 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: Especially with AI. I mean, do you think that that's 420 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: going it? CAD has to it's going to have to 421 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: make a difference. Will once everybody agrees to be transparent. 422 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 4: Yes, bad data in that they say, garbage data in, 423 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 4: garbage data out. Yeah, it doesn't matter how smart the 424 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 4: computer system is if it doesn't have all the data. 425 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 4: One thing that I learned recently that totally freaked me 426 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 4: out was that in federal federal lands like parks or 427 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 4: Native American reservations, even they're not mandated. 428 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: I thought it was a state issue, right, States were like. 429 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 4: No, I'm not going to send all my information to 430 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: the federal government, you know, and this is the old 431 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 4: war happening. But even on the federal side, how do 432 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 4: you not send all murder data from a from a 433 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 4: national park to a mainline computer system? Even the head 434 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 4: of the VISCAP program was saying that the computer that 435 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 4: the system's broken. Wow, and that's how guys like retx 436 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 4: Hereum in the Long Island serial Killer get away with 437 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: it for thirty years. 438 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 3: For so long. 439 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: Tell me about interviewing the people the families that were 440 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: close to the victims had and I was pretty amazed 441 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: at how you got them to open up. Was it 442 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: hard to get them to talk to you? 443 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 4: No, because no one had, because they were desperate, sad 444 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 4: because nobody had, because they weren't getting answers, and they 445 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: were desperate for somebody to hear their story of their 446 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 4: loved one. 447 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 2: And you know, now today the world's changed. 448 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 4: You know, you've got nine million, you know, podcasters like 449 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 4: ourselves who want the story and are willing to listen. 450 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 4: But back then, it wasn't like that, and it's not 451 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 4: by by the way, it wasn't that long ago. But 452 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 4: nobody was listening to them, nobody was hearing their stories. 453 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 4: Is they were desperate for information and it didn't know 454 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 4: where to turn. And that was the most heartbreaking thing, 455 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 4: knowing that you couldn't quite help them. The only thing 456 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 4: you could do was trying to amplify their story. 457 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting that it wasn't difficult to get them 458 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: to talk to you. They didn't know you, and I 459 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: watching you guys, you and Rachel go and just knock 460 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: on homes. I always whenever you knocked, I thought, there's 461 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 1: no way he's getting into this house. Like somebody comes 462 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: and knocks on my door and for whatever reason, I 463 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: don't know, but it's you're It's interesting because you're right, 464 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: these families are. 465 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: So desperate, you know, for closure about what his friend 466 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 3: it is. It's awful. 467 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: So what do you feel like these victims? What did 468 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: the families teach you about the victims? And I kind 469 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: of can guess your answer, but I mean, again, it's 470 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: about the fact that they were actually human. They weren't 471 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: just sex workers, right, these are these are women that 472 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: were that had whole lives. 473 00:23:54,359 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the children and sisters, mothers, daughters also 474 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 4: taught me the way in which we need to be 475 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 4: responsible in terms of amplifying their stories. It's yeah, you know, 476 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 4: it's there's a responsibility we have to not just tell 477 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 4: the story and then move on to the next podcast episode. 478 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 4: I'm guilty of it too, I do it, you know, 479 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 4: But but I think you need to realize what that means. 480 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 4: It's so easy for us to research a story on 481 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 4: Wikipedia and then go talk about that story and say 482 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 4: these names. 483 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, but Josh, you're not a cow. 484 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: How long do you hit your head up against a 485 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: wall before you say I've got to move on? 486 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: Listen. I bet you're no choice. 487 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 4: You have no choice, absolutely, But even just the knowing, 488 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 4: I think. I think even just the knowing going there, 489 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 4: going to somebody's house, sitting in their house, hearing their stories, 490 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 4: I think that's the difference in what I learned versus 491 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 4: what I'm seeing out there in the world today. It's 492 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 4: it's not the same when and you know, we talk 493 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 4: over zoom. You have to go there and you have 494 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 4: to sit with these people, and then when the camera 495 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 4: turns off, you have to hear what they say to 496 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 4: the camera. 497 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 498 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: Are there any of the any of the families or 499 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: any of the stories that really which one do you 500 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: think impacted you the most? 501 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 3: If you can pick one. 502 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: Oh man, there's there's it's it's so interesting. You know. 503 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 4: There was a woman, Kim, who was a sister of 504 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 4: one of the girls, and she had her own addiction troubles, 505 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 4: but she was so smart and so with it and 506 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 4: so together. And I met her in a hotel and 507 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 4: she was high as a kite. But yeah, yeah, but yet, 508 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: you know, I was like, this woman is so smart, 509 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 4: what is she doing here? And she was so racked 510 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 4: with guilts? 511 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: You know. 512 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 4: That was one of that was one of the stories, 513 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 4: just learning who these people are and learning the human 514 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: consequence of tragedy. And yeah, I'm always learning that story. 515 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 4: Very recently, there was the victim impact statements in the 516 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: Gilga Beach case. And I had met these people nine 517 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 4: years ago or actually longer, probably thirteen years ago, and 518 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 4: then I saw them today. And you know, to see 519 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 4: these victim impact statements, to hear a child of a 520 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 4: murdered victim say, yes, I never even knew my mother, right? 521 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 4: Can you imagine what it's like to never grow up 522 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 4: with a mother that most the most important relationship any 523 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 4: human being could technically ever have outside of maybe your 524 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 4: you know, life partner, if that even is real, but 525 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 4: you know, it's your mother, right, and to not have that. 526 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: How about your daughter and her grandmother? To take that away? 527 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: It's all right? I mean I think there's you know, 528 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: maybe things are so sensationalized. Now there's so much that 529 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: we see on TV and in terms of fiction, and 530 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: maybe we've grown a little numb to have. 531 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 4: I think we have, and I think you really you know, 532 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 4: I remember the hardest interview I've ever done. Yeah, I 533 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 4: used to produce movies, right, so like I've dealt with 534 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: a big actors, huge actors, people screaming and yell at me. 535 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: None of that means anything to me. 536 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 4: The hardest interview I ever did was with a parent 537 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 4: of a missing child, because how do you even how 538 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 4: do you even start the conversation to say, oh, I 539 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 4: know what you're thinking, I know what you're feeling. You know, 540 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 4: he has no idea, you know. And then and I said, 541 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 4: where do you think your daughter is? And I was 542 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 4: like looking for like the clue to go find it, 543 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 4: and he turns me and goes in heaven, I hope. 544 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 4: And it was so subtle, but it floored me. 545 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: Are you just reminding me of After October seventh there 546 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: was there was a little girl that was taken and 547 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: they interviewed the father and he said, I just hope 548 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,959 Speaker 1: that she's dead and not in these in the tunnels, 549 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: since she was actually rescued thank God. But yeah, like 550 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: that's the alternative is so unbearable. Yeah, that death feels more. 551 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 4: And so I just think we need to understand the 552 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 4: consequence of trauma in our reporting of these cases. And 553 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 4: I think that that's helpful for us to be better reporters, 554 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 4: to be better storytellers, because at the end of the day, 555 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 4: you don't want to go there almost because it's so 556 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 4: sad and it's so tragic, but. 557 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: You have to. 558 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's important. Also, sometimes I say 559 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: to myself as I'm watching it, it's just it's also horrible. 560 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: I watch lots of crime, true crime documentaries. But I 561 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: do think that there's something important about being in the 562 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: know and not just you know, turning a blind eye. 563 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: I not that I'm not saying I'm not you. I'm 564 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: not going out and solving cases, clearly, I'm just interviewing 565 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: people like you. But still, I guess awareness is, you know, 566 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: helpful and important and all of that. How did you 567 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: feel when Rex Huerman was arrested, Like, what was your 568 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: immediate reaction? 569 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 5: I didn't believe it really well, because you had a 570 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 5: police department that was so corrupt and had put out 571 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 5: all these false you know narratives and fumbled through the case, 572 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 5: and we're making all these like I saw what they 573 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 5: were doing in the background. 574 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: I was just like, these guys are ridiculous. 575 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 4: I can't believe. You can't believe anything they're saying. I 576 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 4: mean literally, they're going to jail. So I didn't believe it. 577 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: I had to be convinced. But there was a new 578 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 4: DA ray Tyranny, and he would put out these bail documents, 579 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 4: and the bail document like like here's our he would 580 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 4: give out like proof like here is the document, the 581 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 4: legal documents that as to why we arrested rex Hureman. Okay, 582 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 4: And and then there was a superseding document when there 583 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: was another crime that was added to the list because 584 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 4: they kept identifying people and the DNA kept getting processed 585 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 4: and then be like, okay, we can now link this 586 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 4: guy to another victim. So he kept putting out these 587 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 4: bail documents, and for those in the know who were 588 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 4: so into the case, it was like reading a crime 589 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 4: novel from this guy. And so he was giving the 590 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 4: public his evidence and it was super fascinating. So I 591 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 4: eventually became convinced that they did have the right guy. 592 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: I own my biggest concern now is what about the 593 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 4: other victims, What about the other victims who haven't been identified, 594 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 4: What about the other crimes that may be local and 595 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 4: trying to solve those mysteries. 596 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 3: How many did he admit to? 597 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 4: Age, Yes, I think there's well, there's one more victim 598 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 4: named Asian Doe. We don't know who this person is 599 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 4: the only person found a long Gilgo Beach's trophy garden 600 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 4: who hasn't been identified. Rech Human denies that this is 601 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: any one of his victims. Yet it doesn't make any 602 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 4: sense because this victim is in between two other victims 603 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 4: who he did admit to, and he had searches on 604 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 4: his Google for transsexual ts transsexuals. What he was looking 605 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 4: for really transgender individuals. 606 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: But at the. 607 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 4: Time, you know, for some reason he's not coming clean 608 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 4: about this. Is it because there's this underlying prejudice He 609 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 4: doesn't want the world somehow, you know. 610 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 3: It'd be interested in trans victim right exactly? 611 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 4: You know, it's like, oh my god, you know he's 612 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: like a serial kill. It's literally clutching his own pearls. 613 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: Yes, my god, I can you imagine. 614 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: Never me, I wouldn't do that. I only killed women. 615 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm laughing. 616 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: Okay, because it's. 617 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: Okay, it's so ridiculous looking back. Would you've done anything differently? 618 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had. 619 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 4: I had an interview with a gentleman named Dave Shaller 620 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 4: who was one of the victims. 621 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: You Actually his interview was in. 622 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 4: The documentary The Killing Season. It's in like in a 623 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 4: third episode and he talks about how the police came 624 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 4: but nothing ever happened. 625 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: Well, we didn't. 626 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: Include in this interview and left on the cutting room 627 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 4: floor was an interview. Was the rest of the interview 628 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 4: where he talks about this guy who came in a 629 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 4: green avalanche and he was spunge as absolutely. As part 630 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 4: of it, he talked about three individuals, but among them 631 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 4: was this guy who was huge, a monster, Frankenstein an ogre. 632 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 4: He dries a Chevy Avalanche and he's like, it's either him, 633 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 4: him or him. 634 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 3: Ah, that shit must have kept you up. 635 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 4: Why didn't we put it in because we're like we 636 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 4: He's like, well, obviously the police checked this guy out. 637 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: It doesn't make it. 638 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, come on, because. 639 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 4: It was so clear as day. He's like, oh, I 640 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 4: told the cops about this one. These three guys, you know, 641 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 4: and we're like, oh, well, no way, there's no way 642 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 4: that this super duper smart serial killer would he basically, 643 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 4: in his story, the same guy who had been to 644 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 4: the house two weeks beforehand, he had gotten into this fight. 645 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: They had done a ruse, like the typical old boyfriend ruse. 646 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 4: Like like where's my wife, you know, get out of here, 647 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 4: take the money and kick the guy out. Well, they 648 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 4: pulled this ruse on Rex Heuerman. Rex Heureman then apparently 649 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 4: goes back either the next day or two weeks later 650 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 4: and then snatches that woman. Why because you know, had 651 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 4: he been insulted. You know, he let his ego get 652 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 4: in the way of years of being a super duper 653 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: smart serial killer. So it didn't make any sense. And 654 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 4: we of course said, well, you know, the super super 655 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 4: serial killer would never show his face and then go 656 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 4: back two weeks later. 657 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: This doesn't make any sense, and yet he did. 658 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: Ego. Wow, the ego of a serial killer. 659 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: Do you think that it's a big generalization, but the 660 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: most serial killers are an ordinarily bright, smart, high IQ individuals. 661 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: I mean it depends. 662 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 4: I mean there's an old classification which is usually organized 663 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 4: versus disorganized, disorganized or the kind of mentally disabled. Right, 664 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 4: You guys who just like blitz attack and there's just 665 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 4: like a crazy man running around, you know. And then 666 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 4: there's the organized, and those are the folks who are 667 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 4: usually have some sort of you know, emotional trauma growing up. 668 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 4: You know, it's a combination of genetics and nature and nurture. 669 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 2: You know. They say that. 670 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 4: Genetics loads the gun, and you know, the environment pulls 671 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 4: the trigger, and so the organized ones. 672 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: Yes, But here's the thing. 673 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 4: Rex Hureman was actually very rare, dangerous type of serial killer, 674 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 4: a subset known as a sexual sadist. 675 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 2: And that's really interesting. Sexual status are really. 676 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: Hard actually enjoyed, right, well not I mean I would 677 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: think that if you're going to be a serial killer, 678 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: you probably are going to enjoy your work somehow, I 679 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: don't know, But not like that. 680 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: They don't enjoy I mean. 681 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: Are there're serial killers that don't enjoy killing people, don't 682 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: most of them aren't most of them sadists. 683 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 3: They feel like they have to. 684 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 4: There are serial killers that have other issues that kill, 685 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 4: you know, for a reason, telling or anger, what have you, right, 686 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 4: you know, anger, transference, all these other issues. But Rex 687 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 4: Chuermann enjoys pain, causing pain and the fear that of 688 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 4: that individual. Basically, it's like BDS you know BDSM. You know, 689 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 4: they say, we're not comparing it to BDSM. It's a 690 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 4: very different thing. But people in BS BDSM relationships they 691 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 4: enjoy the fact that the other partner consents to all 692 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 4: these things. What a sexual sadist is the lack of consent. 693 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 4: It's the fact that the person's like, no, no, no, 694 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 4: please stop. They love the fear. That's what gets them off, 695 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 4: not even the sex part of it. The fear. And 696 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 4: it doesn't matter if it's black or white, young or old, uh, 697 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 4: it is it is always. 698 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: About that sadism. 699 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 4: It is always about getting off on the fear of 700 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,959 Speaker 4: the other individual. That's why he would then call sometimes 701 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 4: he called the sister of one of the of his 702 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 4: victims and said, told the all the things that he 703 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 4: did and how he would come into it too. He's 704 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 4: getting off on the fear and that is terrifying. 705 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: What was his background, what was his nurture? 706 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 4: So Rech Jermann had a very domineering father, alcoholic German, 707 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 4: probably beat him quite a bit. He had He was 708 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 4: a bit of a Mama's boy, we think very significant 709 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 4: in this case. 710 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 2: He had been bullied. Now, of course, millions of people. 711 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: Are bullied every day, right, you always think that right 712 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: when you hear it, but different. 713 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 4: But the bullying was important to him. And remember a 714 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 4: lot of people would be like, I was bullied. I 715 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 4: never How can we blame bullying. We're not blaming bullying. 716 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 4: What we're saying is what makes the sexual status is 717 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 4: a very unique cocktail of factors, both physical and that 718 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 4: he was also a malignant narcissist. 719 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 2: You know, it is a lot. He was also huge six'. 720 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 4: Three he had been kind of bullied about how big he, 721 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 4: was and that it's all part of a very unique. 722 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 4: Cocktail and as we, know sometimes if you have too 723 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 4: much of one into my, another you know that it 724 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 4: doesn't create a drink that tastes good or you, know 725 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 4: but you have to have the, right perfect cocktail to 726 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 4: to create a sexual. 727 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: Status Light, reshuman do. 728 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: You think that so just talking about nature versus? Nurture 729 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: of course you're saying that it's both, Right so also it's, 730 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: THIS i, mean do you believe after doing all of 731 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: this there is just evil born? Evil you, know these 732 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 1: serial killers they're bad, eggs the bad, apples, WHATEVER i, 733 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: mean do you believe that from the? 734 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 3: Beginning who when they're? Kids. 735 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 4: LISTEN i don't believe anybody is born, evil you. KNOW 736 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 4: i also don't Believe, YEAH i don't believe in the 737 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 4: in the clean slate theory as. 738 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: Well but you, KNOW i don't believe anybody is born. 739 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 4: EVIL i believe people are born with, deficiencies mental deficiencies 740 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 4: and genetic deficiencies that allow them to be. Predisposed and 741 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 4: then other factors have to come into. Play the alcoholic, 742 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 4: father you, know being tormented for being so, big or 743 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 4: being bullied by by the girls in high. School he 744 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 4: got really tormented by the girls in high. School he 745 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 4: would he was so, big he was very, awkward and 746 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 4: so he would like leave them love letters and they 747 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 4: would like be. 748 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 2: Like what are you? 749 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 4: KIDDING i would never date, you and you, know but 750 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 4: Then Rex huerman you, know would then go like steal 751 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 4: things out of his. 752 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: Locker remember this is all a. 753 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 4: Choice all these serial kills are making choices at the 754 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 4: end of the. Day it's a very famous story About Joel. 755 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 4: Rifkin he has these feelings where he wants to hurt 756 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 4: somebody and he goes into a library and he picks 757 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 4: out two, books and one book is a psychology book 758 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 4: and the other book is about like a true crime 759 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 4: book about murdering. Women and in that, moment he has 760 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 4: that choice to figure out why he is who he 761 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 4: is or why he feels this, way and instead he 762 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 4: picks up the book about murdering, women the true crime. 763 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 3: Book this is a true. Story, yes how you said 764 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 3: he know, this that's pretty. Incredible he told. 765 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: It he told the story. 766 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 4: Right we did an interview with a guy who with 767 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,879 Speaker 4: AN fbi profile and Named Mark saffick that you could 768 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 4: see On, sinister our podcast where he talks about all 769 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 4: these differ and things and even you, know we really 770 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 4: want to get into the mind because it's too simplistic 771 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 4: to call them. 772 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 2: Monsters it's too, Simplistic. 773 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 3: You're i've been watching a lot of these documentaries since we. 774 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: Start you, know the family could call them. 775 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: Monsters SOMETIMES i can get my head around, that other 776 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: TIMES i just. CAN'T i don't, know it's IT'S i 777 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: guess sometimes it's easier to just say that that's this 778 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: is the way that they were. 779 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 4: Born, Right it's way easier to do, that, Right but 780 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 4: if you really want to stop, it if you really 781 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 4: want to prevent, it then you have to find, out you, 782 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 4: know what we can. DO i, mean you, know are 783 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 4: there that what are all the? Signs you, know like 784 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: it used to beet the triad, bed, wedding, arson and 785 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 4: murdering small, animals and now that's, changed interestingly, enough they've 786 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 4: added a. Difference now it's like the fourth, one which 787 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 4: is internet. Bullying so these are, like these are, signs 788 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 4: and you have to be able to look for the 789 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 4: signs that wedding is no longer part of, it you, 790 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 4: know arson is not is maybe. Not but you can 791 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 4: stop people. There there are, parents there are, teachers. 792 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 3: See, something say something, Right, yeah see something say? 793 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 2: Right you, know you never know what may stop. 794 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 4: Them so people aren't always like, THAT i, mean are 795 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 4: there specific are there unique? 796 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 2: Cases? Yeah of. 797 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 4: Course And i'm not some Like i'm not some crazy 798 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 4: liberal who's like save them. All you, Know i'm totally 799 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 4: not that believen the death. Penalty yet at the same, 800 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 4: time you, know why are we talking about all these 801 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 4: people if not to actually at the end of the, 802 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 4: day maybe trying right stop. 803 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: THEM i want to ask you this Because i'm getting 804 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: notes that we have to wrap it. 805 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 3: Up BUT i want to ask. 806 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: YOU i was amazed At i'm going to call, IT 807 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: i don't know what you call. IT i think you 808 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: guys seem very. Brave and do you get scared doing this? 809 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: WORK i, MEAN i even just you, know you're poking 810 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: at a bear and like the guy said to, you 811 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: you don't want to open up that can of? Worms, 812 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: right and he said up, right like aren't you? Nervous 813 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: you do this all the. TIME i or you, know 814 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: you didn't know The rex was the. Guy what if 815 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: he found out that you were DOING i don't. 816 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,479 Speaker 4: Know we actually believe that there's a scene in which 817 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 4: we put something out on back, page and we actually 818 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 4: believe he had read that basically come, on, yeah because 819 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 4: he had been trolling back. Page there's like a site 820 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 4: where people talk about where like they rate sex, workers 821 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 4: and so we found some evidence of. 822 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: That you, KNOW i don't, KNOW i, mean. 823 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 3: Did rachel get? SCARED i, mean as one. 824 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 2: She, did you, KNOW i feel bad here one of. 825 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 3: THOSE i, MEAN i don't. KNOW i was, Amazed, LIKE 826 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 3: i don't know how the shit doesn't keep you up. 827 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 4: At night because your desire for the truth is stronger 828 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 4: than than anything. 829 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 3: ELSE i, guess, well that's a great place to. End 830 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 3: you're a. 831 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: HERO i don't know what to tell. YOU i hope 832 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: you have security and you have double, locks BUT i don't. 833 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: KNOW i don't really mean. THAT i know that you're 834 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: you know what you're, doing AND i trust in, that 835 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: BUT i think it it takes a lot of character 836 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: to delve into the stuff because you want people to get, caught, 837 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: right and you want to make that difference because is 838 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: better you than me my friend. 839 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 4: Listen which it wasn't, me which it could be law, 840 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 4: enforcement but sometimes you pick up the. 841 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 3: Mantle, yeah well you do a great. 842 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: Job amazing And i'm going to watch more of your stuff, 843 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 1: now AND i really appreciate your joining. 844 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 3: Us it's. 845 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: Fascinating the stuff you uncover was absolutely. Fascinating so the 846 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: documentary was. Amazing thank, You thank you so. Much appreciate, 847 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: you of, course