WEBVTT - How to Confront a Polluted Information System | The Spill 0:00:17.292 --> 0:00:17.822 Pushkin. 0:00:32.582 --> 0:00:32.742 Hello! 0:00:33.242 --> 0:00:35.762 Guess what? I wrote a book. I'm sure you're tired 0:00:35.782 --> 0:00:36.602 of hearing about it now. 0:00:36.622 --> 0:00:41.762 It includes a lot of the research that I've done 0:00:41.922 --> 0:00:43.802 for Drilled over the years and tons and tons of 0:00:43.842 --> 0:00:46.662 new stuff as well. I spent quite a bit of 0:00:46.702 --> 0:00:50.562 time in archives, finding new documents and talking to all 0:00:50.602 --> 0:00:54.402 kinds of people to lay out a unifying theory of 0:00:54.502 --> 0:00:58.732 the information ecosystem, all the different layers included in it 0:00:58.812 --> 0:01:01.612 and all the different ways that corporations have tried to 0:01:01.652 --> 0:01:05.912 work those layers in their efforts to circumvent democracy. It's 0:01:05.932 --> 0:01:09.772 called brought to you by how corporations worked the truth, 0:01:09.941 --> 0:01:11.982 calm the public and broke democracy. 0:01:12.062 --> 0:01:12.782 And it's out now. 0:01:13.352 --> 0:01:16.032 From Bloomsbury. You can get it wherever you buy books. 0:01:16.232 --> 0:01:18.411 We'll stick a link in the show notes as well. 0:01:18.432 --> 0:01:21.951 Around the time that it came out in late September, 0:01:22.252 --> 0:01:26.392 Matthew Green from DeSmog interviewed me about it. And we're 0:01:26.422 --> 0:01:31.742 bringing you that conversation now today coming up. And then 0:01:32.002 --> 0:01:34.661 after that, we're going to hear an interview from Allie Brown, 0:01:34.782 --> 0:01:39.122 Drilled Investigative Reporter and Senior Editor with Nick Tilson, who's 0:01:39.142 --> 0:01:43.222 a citizen of the Ogallala Lakota Nation and and CEO 0:01:43.301 --> 0:01:48.042 and founder of Indian Collective, an Indigenous-led nonprofit that provides 0:01:48.082 --> 0:01:51.472 grants and loans to Indigenous groups and organizes campaigns to 0:01:51.552 --> 0:01:55.791 protect Indigenous rights and the environment. If you haven't read 0:01:55.812 --> 0:01:58.892 it already, Aline wrote an incredible story a little bit 0:01:59.052 --> 0:02:02.532 earlier this year about Nick and his work and how 0:02:02.592 --> 0:02:07.712 he's been targeted by police as punishment for that work because. 0:02:07.472 --> 0:02:08.642 It's so effective. 0:02:09.582 --> 0:02:12.042 Indian Collective has been in the crosshairs of all kinds 0:02:12.082 --> 0:02:15.122 of right-wing organizations that have Donald Trump's ear as well. 0:02:15.702 --> 0:02:16.972 And Nick's story gives us. 0:02:16.952 --> 0:02:21.012 Some valuable insights into how rising authoritarianism has hurt civil 0:02:21.052 --> 0:02:23.532 society and the environmental movement. 0:02:23.632 --> 0:02:26.332 So stay tuned for that. But first up, it's me 0:02:26.592 --> 0:02:29.242 and Matthew. Here's that conversation. 0:02:42.592 --> 0:02:44.681 Amy, I mean, first of all, I want to say 0:02:44.722 --> 0:02:49.022 a huge congratulations. I devoured the book and I found 0:02:49.122 --> 0:02:54.282 it not only gripping, but incredibly illuminating. It was as 0:02:54.362 --> 0:02:58.032 if you were drawing back the curtain to reveal the 0:02:58.772 --> 0:03:03.832 machinery that normally we're blissfully unaware of, which at the 0:03:03.892 --> 0:03:06.512 same time is, I think, as you put it in 0:03:06.532 --> 0:03:09.722 the book, is is kind of creating the soil in 0:03:09.782 --> 0:03:15.532 which all of our thinking and discourse grows. So why 0:03:15.572 --> 0:03:20.352 did you think it was so important to put together 0:03:20.392 --> 0:03:22.592 this portrait? 0:03:23.332 --> 0:03:28.382 Well, I feel like especially now, people talk about disinformation 0:03:28.842 --> 0:03:33.142 and misinformation and polarization and all these things, right? Almost 0:03:33.242 --> 0:03:38.722 as like products of technology or products of social media, 0:03:39.162 --> 0:03:42.362 or maybe it's because nobody goes to church anymore. You know, 0:03:42.402 --> 0:03:44.642 there's always like, oh, it's this, it's that. And there's, 0:03:44.942 --> 0:03:50.832 there's really not that much discussion of the concerted efforts 0:03:51.012 --> 0:03:56.032 that really like warped the information ecosystem that we're all 0:03:56.162 --> 0:03:57.032 living in and. 0:03:56.972 --> 0:03:58.392 The impact that that has. 0:03:58.772 --> 0:04:01.692 Like actually, we just ran a mini series in Drilled 0:04:01.752 --> 0:04:05.632 that was reported and hosted by Aline Brown, who's a reporter, 0:04:05.712 --> 0:04:08.122 who's also a senior editor at Drilled. 0:04:08.292 --> 0:04:10.022 And it was so interesting. 0:04:09.722 --> 0:04:14.442 Because it's just like this very deep dive on the 0:04:14.942 --> 0:04:18.942 propaganda effort that energy transfer undertook to deal with the 0:04:18.981 --> 0:04:22.712 Standing Rock movement. And it particularly centers on these two guys. 0:04:22.912 --> 0:04:25.991 One is hired to be an infiltrator. So he's like 0:04:26.712 --> 0:04:30.212 infiltrating the protest camps. And then the guy who's kind 0:04:30.252 --> 0:04:33.012 of in charge of propaganda and they're working back and 0:04:33.052 --> 0:04:36.262 forth and they're each kind of feeding each other information 0:04:36.322 --> 0:04:37.082 and all of these things. 0:04:37.122 --> 0:04:37.242 Right. 0:04:37.282 --> 0:04:39.682 And the whole like the gist of it is that 0:04:40.622 --> 0:04:44.142 they take, you know, some things that were maybe minor 0:04:44.222 --> 0:04:45.102 tensions in. 0:04:45.002 --> 0:04:48.452 The community already. And they they just like inflame them. 0:04:48.512 --> 0:04:52.012 You know, that's how. good propaganda works? Is it like it, 0:04:52.562 --> 0:04:56.842 it's sort of like finds a crack and it exploits it. So, 0:04:56.902 --> 0:05:00.162 you know, they do this thing and it's fairly successful. And, 0:05:00.282 --> 0:05:02.602 you know, I'm not saying it's the only thing that 0:05:03.242 --> 0:05:05.322 made it possible for that pipeline to be built, but 0:05:05.372 --> 0:05:09.492 it was helpful. And it certainly then helped energy transfer 0:05:09.652 --> 0:05:14.072 with their lawsuit against Greenpeace, which you know, may well 0:05:14.212 --> 0:05:18.731 end up resulting in the end entirely of Greenpeace US, 0:05:18.932 --> 0:05:23.292 which is a pretty big deal. You know, over $ 300 0:05:23.012 --> 0:05:28.421 million settlement that Greenpeace now owes this pipeline company that 0:05:28.882 --> 0:05:34.202 really created a story that isn't true, you know, that 0:05:34.262 --> 0:05:38.202 Greenpeace like manufactured the Standing Rock movement, right? So like 0:05:38.222 --> 0:05:40.702 you take that story alone and there's all these little 0:05:41.142 --> 0:05:46.312 pieces of it where the pipeline company is really just 0:05:46.392 --> 0:05:51.722 trying to complete a pipeline project. They don't necessarily want 0:05:51.862 --> 0:05:57.972 to create conditions for protest rights to be eroded in 0:05:58.012 --> 0:06:03.152 the U.S. They don't necessarily want to deepen divides within this, 0:06:03.272 --> 0:06:06.392 you know, South Dakota community that they were operating in. 0:06:06.422 --> 0:06:10.462 That's just like a byproduct. But this happens like thousands 0:06:10.522 --> 0:06:14.042 of times a year where these companies are doing these 0:06:14.162 --> 0:06:17.422 kinds of things. And it has this enormous effect on 0:06:18.012 --> 0:06:22.921 society at large, on local communities, and on how we 0:06:23.102 --> 0:06:26.842 all process information. This isn't a thing that's just happening 0:06:26.882 --> 0:06:28.922 because of the internet. 0:06:28.962 --> 0:06:29.582 You know what I mean? 0:06:29.602 --> 0:06:35.382 This is a thing that's happening like absent specific humans 0:06:36.062 --> 0:06:38.082 trying to do specific things. 0:06:39.032 --> 0:06:43.192 These groups, they're not, as I understand, not just representing 0:06:43.212 --> 0:06:47.002 the industry's interests, but part of this much bigger project 0:06:47.482 --> 0:06:53.872 by think tanks. and various businessmen, other interests, to the 0:06:53.912 --> 0:06:57.462 whole discourse around free markets and what we would expect 0:06:57.522 --> 0:06:59.562 from government. And that to me was one of the 0:06:59.982 --> 0:07:02.962 most powerful messages that came through the book. So I 0:07:03.022 --> 0:07:05.022 wonder if you could speak a bit more about that 0:07:06.542 --> 0:07:11.932 century more long project that you document so exquisitely. 0:07:12.602 --> 0:07:12.862 Yeah. 0:07:12.952 --> 0:07:14.862 I mean, I think that this is another thing that 0:07:14.922 --> 0:07:16.262 I just don't think. 0:07:16.122 --> 0:07:21.382 Is super visible to people that, you know, these guys 0:07:21.482 --> 0:07:25.102 aren't always, and in fact, maybe even less than half 0:07:25.162 --> 0:07:30.022 the time, are they specifically, you know, promoting oil and 0:07:30.062 --> 0:07:33.742 gas or defending a particular project or anything like that? 0:07:33.782 --> 0:07:36.232 Like actually a lot of the effort and money goes 0:07:36.372 --> 0:07:42.052 into shaping people's general ideas of like, the economy and 0:07:42.132 --> 0:07:44.512 how it works and how it should work or the 0:07:44.732 --> 0:07:48.572 natural environment and like our relationship to it and all 0:07:48.592 --> 0:07:52.112 of these kinds of things, like they'll create these pieces 0:07:52.172 --> 0:07:54.532 of propaganda that on the face of it don't have 0:07:54.612 --> 0:07:59.032 anything to do with oil at all. They're just, you know, 0:07:59.052 --> 0:08:03.752 a particular vision of nature or the economy or society, 0:08:03.772 --> 0:08:08.322 you know, they'll get involved in university research because it 0:08:08.402 --> 0:08:12.332 helps to shape again, like the whole framework in which 0:08:12.472 --> 0:08:16.822 we're talking about these ideas. So like, you know, are 0:08:16.862 --> 0:08:19.522 they trying to skew the science and stuff? Yes, they're 0:08:19.562 --> 0:08:23.442 doing that. But they're also like very involved in, again, 0:08:23.482 --> 0:08:26.802 this sort of like, you know, tending the soil in 0:08:26.842 --> 0:08:31.592 which certain ideas grow, which it goes like so much 0:08:31.632 --> 0:08:34.952 deeper than I think people think. My favorite example of 0:08:35.011 --> 0:08:37.712 this with the API in particular is that they had 0:08:37.732 --> 0:08:41.952 a project running During the early 2000s, with the help 0:08:42.011 --> 0:08:47.141 of the Atlas Network, this global network of free market 0:08:47.181 --> 0:08:51.362 think tanks, to funnel money through the API to this 0:08:51.462 --> 0:08:57.072 Catholic priest whose project was to encourage other Catholic priests. 0:08:58.051 --> 0:09:03.231 to embrace capitalism and to increasingly see environmentalism as like 0:09:03.732 --> 0:09:07.131 the devil's work, you know. And so it was like, 0:09:07.151 --> 0:09:11.932 it's to that level where like, I mean, they're trying 0:09:11.982 --> 0:09:14.222 to sort of like, you know, shape the minds of 0:09:14.381 --> 0:09:19.222 individual priests. Like it's at so many different levels. And 0:09:19.281 --> 0:09:23.122 it really is with the intention of, yes, helping one 0:09:23.202 --> 0:09:27.462 company do a particular thing, but also creating the context 0:09:27.661 --> 0:09:32.862 in which all companies can operate with less and less regulation, 0:09:32.962 --> 0:09:36.502 less and less scrutiny, and really like as an end 0:09:36.582 --> 0:09:40.472 run around democracy. I mean, this all grows out of 0:09:40.492 --> 0:09:44.612 a reaction to democracy at its like most basic level. 0:09:44.752 --> 0:09:48.752 You know, it's sort of, okay, you have these wealthy industrialists, 0:09:49.192 --> 0:09:52.091 you have all these great enlightenment ideals that But then 0:09:52.131 --> 0:09:54.951 it like the rubber hits the road and they're like, oh, 0:09:55.391 --> 0:09:57.771 we don't really actually love it when people who don't 0:09:57.822 --> 0:09:59.801 share our interests or like have a vote. 0:10:02.082 --> 0:10:06.041 Yes. And that vision of the landscape, I think, that 0:10:06.092 --> 0:10:10.372 you illuminate is so powerful because even when I started 0:10:10.431 --> 0:10:15.122 working at. DSMOG on the public relations sector, there was 0:10:15.161 --> 0:10:18.322 a part of me was like, well, that sounds relatively innocuous. 0:10:18.502 --> 0:10:21.401 But you pull on this thread and actually public relations 0:10:21.482 --> 0:10:26.002 is just the front end of this enormous space. project 0:10:26.141 --> 0:10:31.372 to essentially undermine and even arguably end democracy. And I 0:10:31.411 --> 0:10:35.952 think that was the really powerful finding that came through 0:10:36.011 --> 0:10:36.692 so strongly. 0:10:36.712 --> 0:10:42.212 I don't even necessarily know if these industries like set 0:10:42.391 --> 0:10:47.551 out to undermine truth, but that's kind of the point too, 0:10:47.592 --> 0:10:49.872 you know, like this is what I thought was really 0:10:49.911 --> 0:10:51.332 interesting about William Nordhaus. 0:10:52.092 --> 0:10:53.141 Which I wrote. 0:10:52.992 --> 0:10:55.732 About in the book too, that I don't think that 0:10:55.791 --> 0:11:01.471 he's compromised or a bad person or doing the oil 0:11:01.531 --> 0:11:03.992 company's bidding or anything like that. There are so many 0:11:04.031 --> 0:11:06.791 people that you come across who are really just unwitting 0:11:06.891 --> 0:11:09.351 participants in this whole machine. 0:11:09.572 --> 0:11:14.952 Yeah. And William Nordhaus being the economist who basically reassured 0:11:14.992 --> 0:11:18.451 us that climate change would have a marginal impact on 0:11:18.531 --> 0:11:19.772 our future prosperity. 0:11:19.811 --> 0:11:20.051 Yeah. 0:11:20.411 --> 0:11:20.591 Yeah. 0:11:20.631 --> 0:11:21.711 Thank you. Thank you, William. 0:11:21.852 --> 0:11:22.732 Yeah. Yeah. 0:11:22.752 --> 0:11:27.171 But, you know, it's like the the oil companies saw 0:11:27.511 --> 0:11:31.102 economics as like a handy thing to use to to 0:11:31.131 --> 0:11:35.542 push back against emissions reductions. And they found the economists 0:11:35.561 --> 0:11:39.802 that were making arguments that helped them push that idea 0:11:40.281 --> 0:11:42.962 and amplified them. You know, like they don't have to 0:11:43.082 --> 0:11:47.891 actually like do something as nefarious as hiring an economist 0:11:47.911 --> 0:11:50.432 to do a particular study, although they also did do that. 0:11:51.811 --> 0:11:53.752 They can just find the people. 0:11:53.811 --> 0:11:56.252 And that's how it works more often than not with 0:11:56.271 --> 0:11:58.511 a lot of the university research stuff too. 0:11:58.722 --> 0:11:59.661 I don't know. 0:11:59.822 --> 0:12:03.761 I talked to a guy who ran the center at 0:12:04.002 --> 0:12:09.642 Stanford that Exxon funded for a long time. Really nice guy. 0:12:09.661 --> 0:12:13.651 He's a geologist by trade. He was a petroleum engineer 0:12:13.692 --> 0:12:15.841 for a long time. And then kind of got into 0:12:15.881 --> 0:12:19.292 like earth sciences and carbon capture and all of that stuff. 0:12:19.352 --> 0:12:22.931 And he, um, you know, was like, well, I get 0:12:22.952 --> 0:12:27.252 really frustrated when my students complain about me, you know, 0:12:27.311 --> 0:12:30.682 working with, um, scientists at fossil fuel companies. Cause you know, 0:12:30.722 --> 0:12:33.881 I'm just trying to solve a differential equation and so 0:12:33.942 --> 0:12:37.581 are they, and there's nothing political about it. And I 0:12:37.622 --> 0:12:39.742 was like, yeah, but like you, you understand, right. 0:12:39.761 --> 0:12:40.401 That like it. 0:12:40.401 --> 0:12:44.942 Can be political and, whether you're actively participating in that 0:12:45.041 --> 0:12:47.201 side of it or not. And he said, what do 0:12:47.242 --> 0:12:49.752 you mean? I said, well, what did Exxon do with 0:12:49.872 --> 0:12:53.291 the solution to that differential equation? And like, how did 0:12:53.332 --> 0:12:56.792 they present that work to the public? Was it used 0:12:56.852 --> 0:13:00.592 in any lobbying that they did? There are any number 0:13:00.612 --> 0:13:03.851 of ways that like you can very innocently be doing 0:13:03.931 --> 0:13:08.852 science and it can be politicized because of this whole 0:13:08.992 --> 0:13:10.742 machine that exists. 0:13:11.391 --> 0:13:14.732 And yeah, I'm glad you brought in that reference to 0:13:15.011 --> 0:13:17.472 the academic because you obviously have a whole chapter on 0:13:18.011 --> 0:13:21.822 how the fossil fuel industry and other polluters, what is 0:13:21.891 --> 0:13:25.282 funded and even necessarily that they put their fingers on 0:13:25.301 --> 0:13:28.622 the scale of the results, right? It's more that they're 0:13:28.641 --> 0:13:31.561 just directing the focus. So if you're going to put 0:13:31.622 --> 0:13:34.942 everything into carbon capture as a climate solution, then the 0:13:34.982 --> 0:13:37.881 research dollars will follow. But what is the opportunity cost 0:13:37.942 --> 0:13:40.841 of researching something that actually could work, right? 0:13:41.362 --> 0:13:43.082 Right. Exactly. Exactly. 0:13:43.102 --> 0:13:45.801 I mean, we're working on a project right now with 0:13:46.161 --> 0:13:50.181 ProPublica that has been going on for like a couple 0:13:50.212 --> 0:13:52.431 of years now. We finally have the first two stories out. 0:13:52.472 --> 0:13:55.051 There's more coming throughout the rest of the year, but 0:13:55.131 --> 0:13:59.792 really trying to dig into the opportunity cost question and 0:13:59.832 --> 0:14:04.192 like the overall impact of the funding to beyond just, 0:14:04.232 --> 0:14:08.151 you know, oh, hey, maybe Stanford shouldn't be taking hundreds 0:14:08.192 --> 0:14:11.201 of millions of dollars from oil companies. It's like, Well, 0:14:11.222 --> 0:14:13.562 what impact did that money have? Like, how did it 0:14:13.602 --> 0:14:18.362 shape policy? And how did it shape everything the IPCC 0:14:18.401 --> 0:14:19.822 tells us every four years? 0:14:19.842 --> 0:14:23.592 I mean, and I love the imagery of information pollution. 0:14:23.612 --> 0:14:26.532 I think it's so helpful because it kind of allows 0:14:26.572 --> 0:14:30.612 us to visualize how it's kind of seeped into almost 0:14:30.672 --> 0:14:34.922 the aquifers from which we're drawing, right? It's everywhere, right? 0:14:35.142 --> 0:14:39.022 And you mentioned a couple of individuals that you've written 0:14:39.061 --> 0:14:41.241 about in the book already. One of the things I 0:14:41.302 --> 0:14:46.242 really enjoy is the portraits you paint of the men. 0:14:46.422 --> 0:14:51.472 And they are almost exclusively men who are the authors 0:14:51.492 --> 0:14:57.472 or the engineers of this machinery. I wonder if there 0:14:57.512 --> 0:15:01.372 was any one of them in particular who you. 0:15:03.061 --> 0:15:05.662 Enjoyed writing about the most. Maybe enjoy is not the 0:15:05.702 --> 0:15:10.002 right word because I sense the kind of dark fascination 0:15:10.042 --> 0:15:13.412 that you hold for these guys. I wonder if there's 0:15:13.472 --> 0:15:16.212 any that you feel you were glad to bring more 0:15:16.272 --> 0:15:16.951 attention to. 0:15:16.972 --> 0:15:23.132 I think my favorite one is probably Michael Schellenberger because. 0:15:23.172 --> 0:15:23.532 I thought. 0:15:23.431 --> 0:15:24.212 You might say that. 0:15:25.172 --> 0:15:27.792 I just feel like he's such an underexplored. 0:15:28.522 --> 0:15:32.782 character in this universe, definitely like someone with with delusions 0:15:32.822 --> 0:15:37.532 of grandeur, but like is starting to become as important 0:15:37.612 --> 0:15:42.831 as he always thought he was and actually wields a 0:15:42.912 --> 0:15:46.292 weird amount of influence and power because he's very close 0:15:46.311 --> 0:15:50.032 to Elon Musk. He's become very close to the Trump administration. 0:15:50.052 --> 0:15:52.632 You know, he goes on Joe Rogan all the time. 0:15:53.632 --> 0:15:57.862 He's very in with like the Jordan Peterson crowd. And 0:15:57.882 --> 0:16:01.702 I find him fascinating because he is totally horseshoe theory 0:16:01.782 --> 0:16:04.722 come to life. Like he started out very, very left 0:16:04.882 --> 0:16:08.922 in the 90s and early 2000s. You know, he was 0:16:08.942 --> 0:16:12.602 Hugo Chavez's PR guy in the U.S., And. 0:16:12.542 --> 0:16:17.721 He exposed the child labor in sweatshops by Nike factories, right? Yes, exactly. 0:16:17.742 --> 0:16:20.602 That was a big part of his early career. Yeah. 0:16:20.782 --> 0:16:23.502 And I remember I was in the... He. 0:16:23.522 --> 0:16:27.091 Is like a longtime Bay Area person. And I was 0:16:27.142 --> 0:16:29.272 a reporter in the Bay Area at that time. And 0:16:29.332 --> 0:16:32.932 I remember people being like, oh my God, we finally 0:16:32.952 --> 0:16:35.872 have one of these genius propagandists for our side kind 0:16:35.912 --> 0:16:37.711 of thing. It was like how a lot of environmental 0:16:37.792 --> 0:16:39.451 organizations felt about him. 0:16:39.852 --> 0:16:40.272 And then. 0:16:42.412 --> 0:16:45.272 Yeah, he just sort of like went progressively further to 0:16:45.292 --> 0:16:46.922 the right. And now he. 0:16:46.931 --> 0:16:53.762 Is just like full alt-right guy and very extreme, but 0:16:53.842 --> 0:16:58.502 also very good at propaganda. 0:16:58.522 --> 0:16:58.602 Yeah. 0:16:59.292 --> 0:17:00.072 I see him. 0:16:59.992 --> 0:17:02.752 Today and I'm like, oh, he's doing the same job 0:17:02.862 --> 0:17:06.182 for Elon Musk that he did for Hugo Chavez in 0:17:06.202 --> 0:17:09.862 the late 90s and early 2000s. I'm like, this guy 0:17:09.902 --> 0:17:12.982 never cared or talked about or had an opinion on 0:17:13.042 --> 0:17:17.282 trans rights until he got in with Elon Musk. And 0:17:17.341 --> 0:17:19.061 now all of a sudden he has these very strong 0:17:19.081 --> 0:17:27.322 opinions about gender-affirming care and this and that and the other, 0:17:27.361 --> 0:17:30.652 you know? There's really, like, there is no topic that 0:17:30.672 --> 0:17:33.331 he won't touch from UFOs to. 0:17:34.732 --> 0:17:38.331 And he's also, oh, actually, to touch on our shared 0:17:38.371 --> 0:17:41.632 favorite topic, he's gone really weird about the whole, like, 0:17:41.772 --> 0:17:45.942 masculinity thing, you know? Like, thank God it's, like, okay 0:17:45.982 --> 0:17:48.362 to be a man again and blah, blah, blah, which 0:17:48.402 --> 0:17:52.591 is just funny because he's not, like, the most masculine 0:17:52.632 --> 0:17:55.272 of men i would say you know what i mean 0:17:55.331 --> 0:18:02.532 i'm like it just feels inauthentic but he's getting recognition 0:18:02.611 --> 0:18:07.431 and money and adoration and people are listening to him 0:18:07.571 --> 0:18:11.192 and he just keeps like going more and more into 0:18:11.311 --> 0:18:14.071 it but like the weird thing is that it's working so. 0:18:33.722 --> 0:18:35.561 There is a character I want to ask you about. 0:18:35.581 --> 0:18:38.202 Yeah, I'm curious who jumped out to you. 0:18:38.222 --> 0:18:42.202 Well, not just because I'm British, but maybe partly because 0:18:42.242 --> 0:18:44.442 of that. I'm thinking now of the Fisher Brothers. 0:18:45.042 --> 0:18:45.502 Oh, yeah. 0:18:45.561 --> 0:18:46.182 So interesting. 0:18:46.202 --> 0:18:49.482 And the Atlas Network. I mean, we could do a 0:18:49.512 --> 0:18:52.652 whole podcast on this, but maybe you could give us 0:18:52.672 --> 0:18:57.852 a little... summary of what you found because Amish Network 0:18:57.912 --> 0:19:00.452 is another huge theme in the book. It's obviously a 0:19:00.472 --> 0:19:04.232 huge theme for us at DeSmog. But the actual characters 0:19:04.532 --> 0:19:06.811 at the start of the story, I think, are fascinating. 0:19:06.871 --> 0:19:08.732 And I certainly was not aware of any of this. 0:19:08.831 --> 0:19:11.252 The backstory of him is so interesting. 0:19:11.371 --> 0:19:16.232 Also that he was like, crippled by depression for his 0:19:16.311 --> 0:19:17.211 entire life. 0:19:17.351 --> 0:19:20.392 This is Anthony Fisher we're talking about, the older brother. Yeah. 0:19:20.452 --> 0:19:25.161 So Anthony Fisher started one of the first modern think tanks. 0:19:25.282 --> 0:19:30.742 It was called the Institute for Economic Analysis. And he 0:19:30.782 --> 0:19:32.881 was very in with kind of all of the early 0:19:32.982 --> 0:19:37.361 neoliberal economists, the Mont Pelerin Society and Friedrich Hayek and 0:19:37.442 --> 0:19:41.682 all of that stuff. And he, you know, like starts 0:19:41.722 --> 0:19:46.422 this think tank and It's pretty slow going for a while. Initially, 0:19:46.502 --> 0:19:49.552 he reads Hayek's work and he's like, yes, this is 0:19:49.642 --> 0:19:53.612 my thing. I'm going to really fight for free market 0:19:53.811 --> 0:19:58.831 economics in Britain. He decides he's going to run for 0:19:58.952 --> 0:20:01.302 office and then he ends up meeting Hayek and hayek's 0:20:01.321 --> 0:20:03.201 like no don't run for office the thing to do 0:20:03.262 --> 0:20:07.762 if you want to really influence policy is to um 0:20:07.982 --> 0:20:12.111 get into the intellectual elite and at the time i 0:20:12.331 --> 0:20:15.512 don't know why the idea of like trying to get 0:20:15.591 --> 0:20:20.442 onto university campuses was not as appealing but um yeah, 0:20:20.642 --> 0:20:22.081 he was like, you know, she'd start one of these 0:20:22.121 --> 0:20:24.661 think tanks. There were a couple that had started in 0:20:24.702 --> 0:20:27.102 the U S already that he was kind of pointing 0:20:27.162 --> 0:20:30.962 to as, as an idea. So Fisher starts this and like, 0:20:31.162 --> 0:20:32.872 he's going on for a while. And then he starts 0:20:32.912 --> 0:20:34.871 to have a little bit of traction and he's getting 0:20:34.952 --> 0:20:39.392 some corporate funding in. And eventually in the seventies, they 0:20:39.432 --> 0:20:43.071 get credited with really, you know, getting Margaret Thatcher elected. 0:20:43.492 --> 0:20:46.792 But his whole history is like, you know, he, he 0:20:46.831 --> 0:20:50.082 grew up very wealthy and, you know, his mother was 0:20:50.202 --> 0:20:54.561 from an aristocratic line. His dad was like very high 0:20:54.642 --> 0:20:58.161 up in the church and he grew up like in, 0:20:58.341 --> 0:21:00.881 you know, the woods that the Winnie the Pooh woods 0:21:00.962 --> 0:21:05.792 are modeled after, you know, going between like a country 0:21:05.831 --> 0:21:08.672 mansion and a city mansion and like, you know, just 0:21:08.712 --> 0:21:12.432 kind of lived this very charmed childhood. And then he 0:21:13.311 --> 0:21:16.992 and his brother, well, first their, their dad died fairly early, um, 0:21:18.601 --> 0:21:21.361 And then during World War I, and then. 0:21:22.282 --> 0:21:24.902 He was shot by a sniper, right? 0:21:25.042 --> 0:21:25.321 Yeah. 0:21:25.642 --> 0:21:25.862 Yeah. 0:21:26.462 --> 0:21:27.402 He died in combat. 0:21:27.442 --> 0:21:29.821 Yeah, in World War I. So they lose their dad 0:21:29.882 --> 0:21:33.841 pretty early. They basically grow up without a father and 0:21:33.861 --> 0:21:37.081 they sort of become that male figure for each other 0:21:37.182 --> 0:21:41.282 in a way. And they enlist together when World War 0:21:41.321 --> 0:21:44.702 II starts and he sees his brother, you know, like 0:21:44.792 --> 0:21:49.552 plummeting to his death. So it's this hugely traumatic experience. 0:21:49.792 --> 0:21:52.772 Because they're fighter pilots, right? In the Battle of Britain, 0:21:53.091 --> 0:21:53.872 flying hurricanes. 0:21:54.452 --> 0:21:54.912 Exactly. 0:21:54.932 --> 0:21:55.392 Yeah. 0:21:55.432 --> 0:22:00.821 Because they bought a plane together when they were in 0:22:00.912 --> 0:22:05.942 school and learned how to fly. And so then they decide, okay, 0:22:05.962 --> 0:22:09.061 we're going to sign on with the Air Force. And yeah, 0:22:09.202 --> 0:22:11.702 he watches his brother fall to his death. 0:22:12.762 --> 0:22:13.762 It's very traumatic. 0:22:15.262 --> 0:22:18.201 And it's part of like what galvanizes him when he 0:22:18.262 --> 0:22:21.822 returns home to want to fight back against what he 0:22:21.902 --> 0:22:25.482 sees as, you know, Britain kind of going in the 0:22:25.522 --> 0:22:29.401 same direction that they were fighting in Germany. So he 0:22:29.442 --> 0:22:34.912 has this very personal connection to this stuff. Um, and then, yeah, just, 0:22:35.012 --> 0:22:40.892 it kicks off for him, um, this lifelong battle with 0:22:41.571 --> 0:22:46.402 really severe depression. There are, um, Writings about him where, 0:22:46.442 --> 0:22:48.722 you know, he would like go to bed for a year, 0:22:48.742 --> 0:22:52.581 a year with like a depressive episode. 0:22:53.101 --> 0:22:55.822 What I find fascinating and is kind of clarifying, even 0:22:55.882 --> 0:22:59.782 as we're speaking about it for me, is this ideological 0:22:59.882 --> 0:23:05.121 orientation that like when it by the time it arrives 0:23:05.162 --> 0:23:10.202 in the 1980s or even today is presented as free 0:23:10.242 --> 0:23:14.952 markets deregulation. trickle-down economics, like a whole kind of intellectual 0:23:15.081 --> 0:23:19.502 apparatus to justify a small state and allowing corporations to 0:23:19.542 --> 0:23:23.542 do whatever they like, essentially. But for someone like Fischer, 0:23:24.222 --> 0:23:28.012 it's rooted in the war. It's rooted in a fight 0:23:28.091 --> 0:23:32.412 against the Nazis and even the fear, actually, of the 0:23:32.692 --> 0:23:36.391 communists as well at that time, right? The totalitarians, whether 0:23:36.512 --> 0:23:40.402 of the left or the right. But we also hear 0:23:40.502 --> 0:23:43.841 echoes of that today, right? When you hear Jordan Peterson 0:23:43.861 --> 0:23:48.661 portraying climate policies as a kind of march down the 0:23:48.702 --> 0:23:54.492 road to Stalinism. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I find that 0:23:54.652 --> 0:24:00.412 echo very, very powerful. And I wonder whether we all 0:24:00.432 --> 0:24:03.012 need to be looking more deeply at the really deep 0:24:03.091 --> 0:24:07.371 roots of these of these fissures that divide us because 0:24:07.392 --> 0:24:11.652 there's something going on with Fisher that is way more 0:24:11.692 --> 0:24:18.661 than just an intellectual inclination towards free market economics, isn't it? 0:24:19.182 --> 0:24:22.821 Because he's not actually a very intellectual guy, which I 0:24:22.942 --> 0:24:23.921 find really funny. 0:24:24.002 --> 0:24:26.102 Like he's notably not a good student. 0:24:26.382 --> 0:24:29.702 He reads Hayek in Reader's Digest, like he reads the 0:24:29.722 --> 0:24:31.982 Reader's Digest version, you know? 0:24:32.902 --> 0:24:33.581 Yeah, great. 0:24:33.802 --> 0:24:35.202 By all accounts, was like. 0:24:35.081 --> 0:24:39.352