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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello!

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Speaker 1: Guess what? I wrote a book. I'm sure you're tired

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Speaker 1: of hearing about it now.

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Speaker 3: It includes a lot of the research that I've done

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Speaker 3: for Drilled over the years and tons and tons of

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Speaker 3: new stuff as well. I spent quite a bit of

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Speaker 3: time in archives, finding new documents and talking to all

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Speaker 3: kinds of people to lay out a unifying theory of

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Speaker 3: the information ecosystem, all the different layers included in it

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Speaker 3: and all the different ways that corporations have tried to

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Speaker 3: work those layers in their efforts to circumvent democracy. It's

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Speaker 3: called brought to you by how corporations worked the truth,

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Speaker 3: calm the public and broke democracy.

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Speaker 1: And it's out now.

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Speaker 3: From Bloomsbury. You can get it wherever you buy books.

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Speaker 3: We'll stick a link in the show notes as well.

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Speaker 3: Around the time that it came out in late September,

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Speaker 3: Matthew Green from DeSmog interviewed me about it. And we're

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Speaker 3: bringing you that conversation now today coming up. And then

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Speaker 3: after that, we're going to hear an interview from Allie Brown,

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Speaker 3: Drilled Investigative Reporter and Senior Editor with Nick Tilson, who's

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Speaker 3: a citizen of the Ogallala Lakota Nation and and CEO

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Speaker 3: and founder of Indian Collective, an Indigenous-led nonprofit that provides

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Speaker 3: grants and loans to Indigenous groups and organizes campaigns to

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Speaker 3: protect Indigenous rights and the environment. If you haven't read

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Speaker 3: it already, Aline wrote an incredible story a little bit

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Speaker 3: earlier this year about Nick and his work and how

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Speaker 3: he's been targeted by police as punishment for that work because.

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Speaker 1: It's so effective.

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Speaker 3: Indian Collective has been in the crosshairs of all kinds

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Speaker 3: of right-wing organizations that have Donald Trump's ear as well.

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Speaker 4: And Nick's story gives us.

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Speaker 3: Some valuable insights into how rising authoritarianism has hurt civil

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Speaker 3: society and the environmental movement.

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Speaker 1: So stay tuned for that. But first up, it's me

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Speaker 1: and Matthew. Here's that conversation.

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Speaker 5: Amy, I mean, first of all, I want to say

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Speaker 5: a huge congratulations. I devoured the book and I found

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Speaker 5: it not only gripping, but incredibly illuminating. It was as

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Speaker 5: if you were drawing back the curtain to reveal the

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Speaker 5: machinery that normally we're blissfully unaware of, which at the

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Speaker 5: same time is, I think, as you put it in

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Speaker 5: the book, is is kind of creating the soil in

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Speaker 5: which all of our thinking and discourse grows. So why

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Speaker 5: did you think it was so important to put together

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Speaker 5: this portrait?

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Speaker 3: Well, I feel like especially now, people talk about disinformation

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Speaker 3: and misinformation and polarization and all these things, right? Almost

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Speaker 3: as like products of technology or products of social media,

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Speaker 3: or maybe it's because nobody goes to church anymore. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's always like, oh, it's this, it's that. And there's,

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Speaker 3: there's really not that much discussion of the concerted efforts

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Speaker 3: that really like warped the information ecosystem that we're all

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Speaker 3: living in and.

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Speaker 4: The impact that that has.

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Speaker 3: Like actually, we just ran a mini series in Drilled

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Speaker 3: that was reported and hosted by Aline Brown, who's a reporter,

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Speaker 3: who's also a senior editor at Drilled.

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Speaker 1: And it was so interesting.

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Speaker 3: Because it's just like this very deep dive on the

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Speaker 3: propaganda effort that energy transfer undertook to deal with the

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Speaker 3: Standing Rock movement. And it particularly centers on these two guys.

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Speaker 3: One is hired to be an infiltrator. So he's like

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Speaker 3: infiltrating the protest camps. And then the guy who's kind

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Speaker 3: of in charge of propaganda and they're working back and

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Speaker 3: forth and they're each kind of feeding each other information

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Speaker 3: and all of these things.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And the whole like the gist of it is that

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Speaker 3: they take, you know, some things that were maybe minor

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Speaker 3: tensions in.

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Speaker 1: The community already. And they they just like inflame them.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's how. good propaganda works? Is it like it,

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Speaker 3: it's sort of like finds a crack and it exploits it. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, they do this thing and it's fairly successful. And,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm not saying it's the only thing that

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Speaker 3: made it possible for that pipeline to be built, but

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Speaker 3: it was helpful. And it certainly then helped energy transfer

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Speaker 3: with their lawsuit against Greenpeace, which you know, may well

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Speaker 3: end up resulting in the end entirely of Greenpeace US,

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Speaker 3: which is a pretty big deal. You know, over $ 300

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Speaker 3: million settlement that Greenpeace now owes this pipeline company that

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Speaker 3: really created a story that isn't true, you know, that

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Speaker 3: Greenpeace like manufactured the Standing Rock movement, right? So like

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Speaker 3: you take that story alone and there's all these little

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Speaker 3: pieces of it where the pipeline company is really just

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Speaker 3: trying to complete a pipeline project. They don't necessarily want

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Speaker 3: to create conditions for protest rights to be eroded in

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Speaker 3: the U.S. They don't necessarily want to deepen divides within this,

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Speaker 3: you know, South Dakota community that they were operating in.

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Speaker 3: That's just like a byproduct. But this happens like thousands

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Speaker 3: of times a year where these companies are doing these

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Speaker 3: kinds of things. And it has this enormous effect on

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Speaker 3: society at large, on local communities, and on how we

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Speaker 3: all process information. This isn't a thing that's just happening

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Speaker 3: because of the internet.

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Speaker 6: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: This is a thing that's happening like absent specific humans

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Speaker 3: trying to do specific things.

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Speaker 5: These groups, they're not, as I understand, not just representing

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Speaker 5: the industry's interests, but part of this much bigger project

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Speaker 5: by think tanks. and various businessmen, other interests, to the

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Speaker 5: whole discourse around free markets and what we would expect

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Speaker 5: from government. And that to me was one of the

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Speaker 5: most powerful messages that came through the book. So I

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Speaker 5: wonder if you could speak a bit more about that

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Speaker 5: century more long project that you document so exquisitely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think that this is another thing that

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Speaker 4: I just don't think.

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Speaker 3: Is super visible to people that, you know, these guys

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Speaker 3: aren't always, and in fact, maybe even less than half

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Speaker 3: the time, are they specifically, you know, promoting oil and

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Speaker 3: gas or defending a particular project or anything like that?

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Speaker 3: Like actually a lot of the effort and money goes

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Speaker 3: into shaping people's general ideas of like, the economy and

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Speaker 3: how it works and how it should work or the

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Speaker 3: natural environment and like our relationship to it and all

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Speaker 3: of these kinds of things, like they'll create these pieces

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Speaker 3: of propaganda that on the face of it don't have

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Speaker 3: anything to do with oil at all. They're just, you know,

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Speaker 3: a particular vision of nature or the economy or society,

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Speaker 3: you know, they'll get involved in university research because it

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Speaker 3: helps to shape again, like the whole framework in which

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Speaker 3: we're talking about these ideas. So like, you know, are

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Speaker 3: they trying to skew the science and stuff? Yes, they're

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Speaker 3: doing that. But they're also like very involved in, again,

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Speaker 3: this sort of like, you know, tending the soil in

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Speaker 3: which certain ideas grow, which it goes like so much

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Speaker 3: deeper than I think people think. My favorite example of

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Speaker 3: this with the API in particular is that they had

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Speaker 3: a project running During the early 2000s, with the help

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Speaker 3: of the Atlas Network, this global network of free market

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Speaker 3: think tanks, to funnel money through the API to this

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Speaker 3: Catholic priest whose project was to encourage other Catholic priests.

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Speaker 3: to embrace capitalism and to increasingly see environmentalism as like

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Speaker 3: the devil's work, you know. And so it was like,

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Speaker 3: it's to that level where like, I mean, they're trying

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Speaker 3: to sort of like, you know, shape the minds of

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Speaker 3: individual priests. Like it's at so many different levels. And

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Speaker 3: it really is with the intention of, yes, helping one

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Speaker 3: company do a particular thing, but also creating the context

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Speaker 3: in which all companies can operate with less and less regulation,

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Speaker 3: less and less scrutiny, and really like as an end

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Speaker 3: run around democracy. I mean, this all grows out of

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Speaker 3: a reaction to democracy at its like most basic level.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's sort of, okay, you have these wealthy industrialists,

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Speaker 3: you have all these great enlightenment ideals that But then

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Speaker 3: it like the rubber hits the road and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we don't really actually love it when people who don't

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Speaker 3: share our interests or like have a vote.

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Speaker 5: Yes. And that vision of the landscape, I think, that

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Speaker 5: you illuminate is so powerful because even when I started

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Speaker 5: working at. DSMOG on the public relations sector, there was

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Speaker 5: a part of me was like, well, that sounds relatively innocuous.

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Speaker 5: But you pull on this thread and actually public relations

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Speaker 5: is just the front end of this enormous space. project

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Speaker 5: to essentially undermine and even arguably end democracy. And I

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Speaker 5: think that was the really powerful finding that came through

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Speaker 5: so strongly.

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Speaker 3: I don't even necessarily know if these industries like set

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Speaker 3: out to undermine truth, but that's kind of the point too,

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Speaker 3: you know, like this is what I thought was really

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Speaker 3: interesting about William Nordhaus.

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Speaker 1: Which I wrote.

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Speaker 3: About in the book too, that I don't think that

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Speaker 3: he's compromised or a bad person or doing the oil

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Speaker 3: company's bidding or anything like that. There are so many

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Speaker 3: people that you come across who are really just unwitting

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Speaker 3: participants in this whole machine.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. And William Nordhaus being the economist who basically reassured

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Speaker 5: us that climate change would have a marginal impact on

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Speaker 5: our future prosperity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Thank you. Thank you, William.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But, you know, it's like the the oil companies saw

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Speaker 3: economics as like a handy thing to use to to

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Speaker 3: push back against emissions reductions. And they found the economists

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Speaker 3: that were making arguments that helped them push that idea

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Speaker 3: and amplified them. You know, like they don't have to

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Speaker 3: actually like do something as nefarious as hiring an economist

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Speaker 3: to do a particular study, although they also did do that.

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Speaker 4: They can just find the people.

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Speaker 3: And that's how it works more often than not with

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Speaker 3: a lot of the university research stuff too.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I talked to a guy who ran the center at

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Speaker 3: Stanford that Exxon funded for a long time. Really nice guy.

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Speaker 3: He's a geologist by trade. He was a petroleum engineer

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Speaker 3: for a long time. And then kind of got into

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Speaker 3: like earth sciences and carbon capture and all of that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And he, um, you know, was like, well, I get

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Speaker 3: really frustrated when my students complain about me, you know,

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Speaker 3: working with, um, scientists at fossil fuel companies. Cause you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm just trying to solve a differential equation and so

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Speaker 3: are they, and there's nothing political about it. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, yeah, but like you, you understand, right.

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Speaker 4: That like it.

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Speaker 3: Can be political and, whether you're actively participating in that

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Speaker 3: side of it or not. And he said, what do

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Speaker 3: you mean? I said, well, what did Exxon do with

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Speaker 3: the solution to that differential equation? And like, how did

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Speaker 3: they present that work to the public? Was it used

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Speaker 3: in any lobbying that they did? There are any number

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Speaker 3: of ways that like you can very innocently be doing

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Speaker 3: science and it can be politicized because of this whole

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Speaker 3: machine that exists.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I'm glad you brought in that reference to

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Speaker 5: the academic because you obviously have a whole chapter on

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Speaker 5: how the fossil fuel industry and other polluters, what is

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Speaker 5: funded and even necessarily that they put their fingers on

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Speaker 5: the scale of the results, right? It's more that they're

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Speaker 5: just directing the focus. So if you're going to put

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Speaker 5: everything into carbon capture as a climate solution, then the

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Speaker 5: research dollars will follow. But what is the opportunity cost

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Speaker 5: of researching something that actually could work, right?

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Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we're working on a project right now with

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Speaker 3: ProPublica that has been going on for like a couple

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Speaker 3: of years now. We finally have the first two stories out.

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Speaker 3: There's more coming throughout the rest of the year, but

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Speaker 3: really trying to dig into the opportunity cost question and

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Speaker 3: like the overall impact of the funding to beyond just,

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Speaker 3: you know, oh, hey, maybe Stanford shouldn't be taking hundreds

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Speaker 3: of millions of dollars from oil companies. It's like, Well,

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Speaker 3: what impact did that money have? Like, how did it

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Speaker 3: shape policy? And how did it shape everything the IPCC

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Speaker 3: tells us every four years?

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Speaker 5: I mean, and I love the imagery of information pollution.

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Speaker 5: I think it's so helpful because it kind of allows

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Speaker 5: us to visualize how it's kind of seeped into almost

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Speaker 5: the aquifers from which we're drawing, right? It's everywhere, right?

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Speaker 5: And you mentioned a couple of individuals that you've written

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Speaker 5: about in the book already. One of the things I

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Speaker 5: really enjoy is the portraits you paint of the men.

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Speaker 5: And they are almost exclusively men who are the authors

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Speaker 5: or the engineers of this machinery. I wonder if there

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Speaker 5: was any one of them in particular who you.

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Speaker 5: Enjoyed writing about the most. Maybe enjoy is not the

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Speaker 5: right word because I sense the kind of dark fascination

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Speaker 5: that you hold for these guys. I wonder if there's

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Speaker 5: any that you feel you were glad to bring more

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Speaker 5: attention to.

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Speaker 3: I think my favorite one is probably Michael Schellenberger because.

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Speaker 4: I thought.

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Speaker 5: You might say that.

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Speaker 4: I just feel like he's such an underexplored.

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Speaker 3: character in this universe, definitely like someone with with delusions

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Speaker 3: of grandeur, but like is starting to become as important

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Speaker 3: as he always thought he was and actually wields a

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Speaker 3: weird amount of influence and power because he's very close

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Speaker 3: to Elon Musk. He's become very close to the Trump administration.

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Speaker 3: You know, he goes on Joe Rogan all the time.

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Speaker 3: He's very in with like the Jordan Peterson crowd. And

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Speaker 3: I find him fascinating because he is totally horseshoe theory

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Speaker 3: come to life. Like he started out very, very left

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Speaker 3: in the 90s and early 2000s. You know, he was

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Speaker 3: Hugo Chavez's PR guy in the U.S., And.

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Speaker 5: He exposed the child labor in sweatshops by Nike factories, right? Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 5: That was a big part of his early career. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I remember I was in the... He.

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Speaker 3: Is like a longtime Bay Area person. And I was

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Speaker 3: a reporter in the Bay Area at that time. And

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Speaker 3: I remember people being like, oh my God, we finally

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Speaker 3: have one of these genius propagandists for our side kind

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Speaker 3: of thing. It was like how a lot of environmental

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Speaker 3: organizations felt about him.

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Speaker 2: And then.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he just sort of like went progressively further to

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Speaker 4: the right. And now he.

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Speaker 3: Is just like full alt-right guy and very extreme, but

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Speaker 3: also very good at propaganda.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I see him.

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Speaker 3: Today and I'm like, oh, he's doing the same job

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Speaker 3: for Elon Musk that he did for Hugo Chavez in

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Speaker 3: the late 90s and early 2000s. I'm like, this guy

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Speaker 3: never cared or talked about or had an opinion on

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Speaker 3: trans rights until he got in with Elon Musk. And

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Speaker 3: now all of a sudden he has these very strong

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Speaker 3: opinions about gender-affirming care and this and that and the other,

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Speaker 3: you know? There's really, like, there is no topic that

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Speaker 3: he won't touch from UFOs to.

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Speaker 3: And he's also, oh, actually, to touch on our shared

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Speaker 3: favorite topic, he's gone really weird about the whole, like,

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Speaker 3: masculinity thing, you know? Like, thank God it's, like, okay

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Speaker 3: to be a man again and blah, blah, blah, which

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Speaker 3: is just funny because he's not, like, the most masculine

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Speaker 3: of men i would say you know what i mean

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Speaker 3: i'm like it just feels inauthentic but he's getting recognition

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Speaker 3: and money and adoration and people are listening to him

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Speaker 3: and he just keeps like going more and more into

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Speaker 3: it but like the weird thing is that it's working so.

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Speaker 5: There is a character I want to ask you about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm curious who jumped out to you.

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Speaker 5: Well, not just because I'm British, but maybe partly because

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Speaker 5: of that. I'm thinking now of the Fisher Brothers.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So interesting.

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Speaker 5: And the Atlas Network. I mean, we could do a

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Speaker 5: whole podcast on this, but maybe you could give us

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Speaker 5: a little... summary of what you found because Amish Network

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Speaker 5: is another huge theme in the book. It's obviously a

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Speaker 5: huge theme for us at DeSmog. But the actual characters

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Speaker 5: at the start of the story, I think, are fascinating.

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Speaker 5: And I certainly was not aware of any of this.

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Speaker 4: The backstory of him is so interesting.

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Speaker 3: Also that he was like, crippled by depression for his

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Speaker 3: entire life.

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Speaker 5: This is Anthony Fisher we're talking about, the older brother. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So Anthony Fisher started one of the first modern think tanks.

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Speaker 3: It was called the Institute for Economic Analysis. And he

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Speaker 3: was very in with kind of all of the early

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Speaker 3: neoliberal economists, the Mont Pelerin Society and Friedrich Hayek and

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Speaker 3: all of that stuff. And he, you know, like starts

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Speaker 3: this think tank and It's pretty slow going for a while. Initially,

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Speaker 3: he reads Hayek's work and he's like, yes, this is

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Speaker 3: my thing. I'm going to really fight for free market

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Speaker 3: economics in Britain. He decides he's going to run for

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Speaker 3: office and then he ends up meeting Hayek and hayek's

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Speaker 3: like no don't run for office the thing to do

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Speaker 3: if you want to really influence policy is to um

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Speaker 3: get into the intellectual elite and at the time i

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Speaker 3: don't know why the idea of like trying to get

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Speaker 3: onto university campuses was not as appealing but um yeah,

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Speaker 3: he was like, you know, she'd start one of these

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Speaker 3: think tanks. There were a couple that had started in

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Speaker 3: the U S already that he was kind of pointing

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Speaker 3: to as, as an idea. So Fisher starts this and like,

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Speaker 3: he's going on for a while. And then he starts

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Speaker 3: to have a little bit of traction and he's getting

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Speaker 3: some corporate funding in. And eventually in the seventies, they

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Speaker 3: get credited with really, you know, getting Margaret Thatcher elected.

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Speaker 3: But his whole history is like, you know, he, he

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Speaker 3: grew up very wealthy and, you know, his mother was

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Speaker 3: from an aristocratic line. His dad was like very high

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Speaker 3: up in the church and he grew up like in,

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Speaker 3: you know, the woods that the Winnie the Pooh woods

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Speaker 3: are modeled after, you know, going between like a country

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Speaker 3: mansion and a city mansion and like, you know, just

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Speaker 3: kind of lived this very charmed childhood. And then he

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Speaker 3: and his brother, well, first their, their dad died fairly early, um,

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Speaker 3: And then during World War I, and then.

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Speaker 5: He was shot by a sniper, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: He died in combat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in World War I. So they lose their dad

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Speaker 3: pretty early. They basically grow up without a father and

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Speaker 3: they sort of become that male figure for each other

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Speaker 3: in a way. And they enlist together when World War

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Speaker 3: II starts and he sees his brother, you know, like

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Speaker 3: plummeting to his death. So it's this hugely traumatic experience.

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Speaker 5: Because they're fighter pilots, right? In the Battle of Britain,

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Speaker 5: flying hurricanes.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Because they bought a plane together when they were in

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Speaker 3: school and learned how to fly. And so then they decide, okay,

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Speaker 3: we're going to sign on with the Air Force. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: he watches his brother fall to his death.

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Speaker 1: It's very traumatic.

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Speaker 3: And it's part of like what galvanizes him when he

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Speaker 3: returns home to want to fight back against what he

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Speaker 3: sees as, you know, Britain kind of going in the

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Speaker 3: same direction that they were fighting in Germany. So he

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Speaker 3: has this very personal connection to this stuff. Um, and then, yeah, just,

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Speaker 3: it kicks off for him, um, this lifelong battle with

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Speaker 3: really severe depression. There are, um, Writings about him where,

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Speaker 3: you know, he would like go to bed for a year,

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Speaker 3: a year with like a depressive episode.

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Speaker 5: What I find fascinating and is kind of clarifying, even

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Speaker 5: as we're speaking about it for me, is this ideological

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Speaker 5: orientation that like when it by the time it arrives

378
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Speaker 5: in the 1980s or even today is presented as free

379
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Speaker 5: markets deregulation. trickle-down economics, like a whole kind of intellectual

380
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Speaker 5: apparatus to justify a small state and allowing corporations to

381
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Speaker 5: do whatever they like, essentially. But for someone like Fischer,

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Speaker 5: it's rooted in the war. It's rooted in a fight

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Speaker 5: against the Nazis and even the fear, actually, of the

384
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Speaker 5: communists as well at that time, right? The totalitarians, whether

385
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Speaker 5: of the left or the right. But we also hear

386
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Speaker 5: echoes of that today, right? When you hear Jordan Peterson

387
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Speaker 5: portraying climate policies as a kind of march down the

388
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Speaker 5: road to Stalinism. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I find that

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Speaker 5: echo very, very powerful. And I wonder whether we all

390
00:24:00,432 --> 00:24:03,012
Speaker 5: need to be looking more deeply at the really deep

391
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Speaker 5: roots of these of these fissures that divide us because

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Speaker 5: there's something going on with Fisher that is way more

393
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Speaker 5: than just an intellectual inclination towards free market economics, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Because he's not actually a very intellectual guy, which I

395
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Speaker 3: find really funny.

396
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Speaker 4: Like he's notably not a good student.

397
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Speaker 3: He reads Hayek in Reader's Digest, like he reads the

398
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Speaker 3: Reader's Digest version, you know?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, great.

400
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Speaker 4: By all accounts, was like.

401
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Speaker 3: A massive fan of Reader's Digest and like subscribed everybody

402
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Speaker 3: to it.

403
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Speaker 5: I just I'm just wanting to dwell on the British

404
00:24:44,272 --> 00:24:46,851
Speaker 5: culture that we're presencing here because I feel like it

405
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Speaker 5: leavens the US slant that we might otherwise feel.

406
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he actually at a certain point becomes like the

407
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Speaker 3: guy who brings, you know, industrial ag to the UK

408
00:25:01,712 --> 00:25:02,191
Speaker 3: as well.

409
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like battery chickens as well.

410
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's him.

411
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Speaker 5: Factory farming.

412
00:25:06,581 --> 00:25:07,181
Speaker 4: He does that.

413
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Speaker 3: Yeah, factory farming. He introduces that and he makes a

414
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Speaker 3: fortune off of it.

415
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Speaker 5: I know we've only got a few minutes and I

416
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Speaker 5: want to hear your grand unified theory of information ecosystem restoration,

417
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Speaker 5: because you do set out in the last chapter some

418
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Speaker 5: really concrete proposals for how we can address all this.

419
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Speaker 5: So I'd love to hear you speak about that.

420
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

421
00:25:33,412 --> 00:25:36,472
Speaker 3: We've actually had a lot of the guardrails in place

422
00:25:36,561 --> 00:25:40,741
Speaker 3: in the past that have been removed. And there's this

423
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Speaker 3: huge idea that if you talk at all about creating

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Speaker 3: an information ecosystem where people can just find useful information,

425
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Speaker 3: which we.

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Speaker 1: Don't have right now, without being like, a.

427
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Speaker 3: Professor or an investigative journalist or whatever, that like, okay,

428
00:26:02,472 --> 00:26:05,572
Speaker 3: maybe there needs to be like some, maybe there needs

429
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Speaker 3: to be some fact checking or maybe there needs to

430
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Speaker 3: be content moderation or things like that.

431
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Speaker 1: People are like, oh, that's censorship.

432
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Speaker 4: That is not what censorship is.

433
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Speaker 5: Well, it seems to me, and I think maybe you

434
00:26:16,702 --> 00:26:19,782
Speaker 5: use a similar analogy, but it's almost like food labeling

435
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Speaker 5: or like we accept that there should be some regulation

436
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Speaker 5: over what goes into food and what is sold as

437
00:26:26,571 --> 00:26:32,292
Speaker 5: food and what is advertised as food. But that's not

438
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Speaker 5: particularly controversial unless you're maybe an extreme libertarian. But as

439
00:26:37,172 --> 00:26:39,052
Speaker 5: I think you say in the book, this Overton window

440
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Speaker 5: has moved so far from where we were, say– in seventies,

441
00:26:42,482 --> 00:26:46,591
Speaker 5: even eighties, when there were more restrictions on or requirements

442
00:26:46,611 --> 00:26:50,731
Speaker 5: for balance in broadcast and obviously more restrictions on corporate

443
00:26:50,772 --> 00:26:53,132
Speaker 5: funding for political causes.

444
00:26:53,152 --> 00:26:54,212
Speaker 2: Yeah.

445
00:26:54,992 --> 00:26:55,152
Speaker 1: Yeah.

446
00:26:55,252 --> 00:27:01,152
Speaker 3: I think like transparency around funding of all kinds, huge help, um,

447
00:27:01,532 --> 00:27:06,671
Speaker 3: you know, fact-checking media literacy in general, like people just understanding, um,

448
00:27:07,642 --> 00:27:12,162
Speaker 3: where information is coming from and who's shaping it, you know,

449
00:27:12,202 --> 00:27:13,831
Speaker 3: in the same way, like when I was growing up,

450
00:27:16,121 --> 00:27:18,442
Speaker 3: And I had a civics class. One of the things

451
00:27:18,522 --> 00:27:22,022
Speaker 3: that our teacher made us do was read the newspaper

452
00:27:22,142 --> 00:27:24,162
Speaker 3: once a week, an actual print newspaper, kids.

453
00:27:24,522 --> 00:27:29,181
Speaker 2: I remember those.

454
00:27:29,262 --> 00:27:34,262
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was only once a week, but he was

455
00:27:34,321 --> 00:27:37,762
Speaker 3: very insistent that like we get familiar. And then we

456
00:27:37,782 --> 00:27:41,821
Speaker 3: would talk about like, you know, how certain stories had

457
00:27:41,861 --> 00:27:45,252
Speaker 3: been presented and you know, what interests.

458
00:27:44,892 --> 00:27:46,432
Speaker 1: Were being represented in them.

459
00:27:46,552 --> 00:27:49,892
Speaker 3: And it was actually like very useful. And I just

460
00:27:49,932 --> 00:27:52,191
Speaker 3: don't think kids are getting that at all. Instead, it's like,

461
00:27:52,512 --> 00:27:55,631
Speaker 3: I don't know, like you have a kid too, right?

462
00:27:55,692 --> 00:27:56,612
Speaker 5: Eight year old daughter.

463
00:27:56,652 --> 00:27:56,872
Speaker 2: Yes.

464
00:27:56,932 --> 00:27:58,952
Speaker 5: I was just trying to visualize buying a copy of

465
00:27:59,012 --> 00:28:01,411
Speaker 5: the times and seeing whether I could read it to her.

466
00:28:01,432 --> 00:28:05,082
Speaker 5: But I think I'd have to first explain what this

467
00:28:05,192 --> 00:28:08,351
Speaker 5: artifact is before we begin to read it.

468
00:28:08,422 --> 00:28:08,682
Speaker 2: Yeah.

469
00:28:09,202 --> 00:28:13,422
Speaker 3: Yeah. But like, I know in my kids' schools over

470
00:28:13,482 --> 00:28:16,602
Speaker 3: the past few years, like the biggest conversation is like,

471
00:28:17,022 --> 00:28:20,561
Speaker 3: to what level are we going to allow them to use.

472
00:28:20,422 --> 00:28:21,162
Speaker 1: AI in school?

473
00:28:21,182 --> 00:28:22,561
Speaker 2: Not like....

474
00:28:24,351 --> 00:28:27,652
Speaker 3: What kinds of conversations are we having with them about

475
00:28:27,892 --> 00:28:32,732
Speaker 3: like the information ecosystem that AI is entering into, you know?

476
00:28:32,752 --> 00:28:36,762
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think there are like educational changes that

477
00:28:36,802 --> 00:28:39,322
Speaker 3: need to be made. I think there, I think we

478
00:28:39,382 --> 00:28:43,362
Speaker 3: should reinstate the guardrails that used to be in place

479
00:28:43,422 --> 00:28:46,382
Speaker 3: around balance in broadcast news.

480
00:28:47,682 --> 00:28:48,722
Speaker 4: And I also.

481
00:28:48,482 --> 00:28:53,692
Speaker 3: Think that like, you know, I don't know. Okay. I,

482
00:28:54,212 --> 00:28:56,822
Speaker 3: I feel like fear in my heart even saying this,

483
00:28:56,892 --> 00:28:57,502
Speaker 3: but like.

484
00:28:58,002 --> 00:29:00,302
Speaker 1: I actually think this is so bad.

485
00:29:00,322 --> 00:29:02,562
Speaker 3: I'm going to get the Internet trolls coming for me

486
00:29:02,662 --> 00:29:08,952
Speaker 3: so hard. I think that actually like some people who

487
00:29:09,032 --> 00:29:11,912
Speaker 3: are caught lying over and over and over again.

488
00:29:11,792 --> 00:29:12,492
Speaker 1: To the public.

489
00:29:13,382 --> 00:29:16,322
Speaker 4: Probably should be censored. Like you get the right to

490
00:29:16,422 --> 00:29:17,702
Speaker 4: speak to the public.

491
00:29:17,742 --> 00:29:21,532
Speaker 3: You get, you have like a platform and people are,

492
00:29:21,692 --> 00:29:24,732
Speaker 3: you know, engaging in what you're doing and you're using

493
00:29:24,832 --> 00:29:30,812
Speaker 3: it to misinform them or give them false information or whatever.

494
00:29:30,832 --> 00:29:31,672
Speaker 1: I don't know.

495
00:29:31,932 --> 00:29:34,522
Speaker 3: I like, I get that, that like, it depends on

496
00:29:34,582 --> 00:29:37,182
Speaker 3: who's in charge and like who gets to decide what's

497
00:29:37,702 --> 00:29:39,982
Speaker 3: true and what's not. And, you know, all of those

498
00:29:40,042 --> 00:29:43,012
Speaker 3: kinds of things. But I think that like, We should

499
00:29:43,032 --> 00:29:46,112
Speaker 3: be able to have a conversation about what should the

500
00:29:46,172 --> 00:29:53,911
Speaker 3: consequence be of knowingly misleading people. and infecting the public

501
00:29:53,972 --> 00:29:56,232
Speaker 3: square with lies.

502
00:29:57,962 --> 00:29:59,442
Speaker 4: The idea that that.

503
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:03,762
Speaker 3: Should always be or that that is a victimless crime

504
00:30:03,802 --> 00:30:06,422
Speaker 3: and that it should never be punished is I don't

505
00:30:06,442 --> 00:30:10,062
Speaker 3: think that that's like a very functional idea right now.

506
00:30:10,082 --> 00:30:13,462
Speaker 3: I think and I write this in the book, too,

507
00:30:13,482 --> 00:30:16,572
Speaker 3: that like that frame on speech, the sort of like

508
00:30:16,612 --> 00:30:20,092
Speaker 3: free speech absolutists that are like, you know, any type

509
00:30:20,132 --> 00:30:24,552
Speaker 3: of speech, a lie, hate speech, you know, violent speech,

510
00:30:24,972 --> 00:30:29,322
Speaker 3: whatever it is, should all be allowed. forgets like the

511
00:30:29,442 --> 00:30:32,092
Speaker 3: other side of the coin of free speech, which is

512
00:30:32,122 --> 00:30:38,492
Speaker 3: like the right to discourse, you know, the right to information,

513
00:30:39,472 --> 00:30:41,432
Speaker 3: the right to be informed.

514
00:30:42,012 --> 00:30:45,732
Speaker 5: Well, the right to an unpolluted information supply, just like

515
00:30:46,112 --> 00:30:49,672
Speaker 5: we could expect an unpolluted water supply. It's just as fundamental.

516
00:30:49,692 --> 00:30:51,072
Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly.

517
00:30:51,892 --> 00:30:54,882
Speaker 3: I hate the way that people will take that and say, like, oh,

518
00:30:55,022 --> 00:30:57,642
Speaker 3: you just want to hear from people who think just

519
00:30:57,702 --> 00:30:58,102
Speaker 3: like you.

520
00:30:58,122 --> 00:30:59,542
Speaker 1: I don't, actually.

521
00:30:59,602 --> 00:31:03,932
Speaker 3: Like, I'm very interested in hearing from people that disagree

522
00:31:03,972 --> 00:31:04,441
Speaker 3: with me and.

523
00:31:06,212 --> 00:31:10,132
Speaker 3: Changed my mind all the time. You know, someone who

524
00:31:10,212 --> 00:31:13,292
Speaker 3: is just sharing something that they truly believe is very

525
00:31:13,352 --> 00:31:18,161
Speaker 3: different from someone who's being paid by a person or

526
00:31:18,182 --> 00:31:23,421
Speaker 3: a company to spread a certain kind of narrative. And

527
00:31:23,482 --> 00:31:26,421
Speaker 3: I don't think that we should treat those two forms

528
00:31:26,482 --> 00:31:27,622
Speaker 3: of speech the same way.

529
00:31:27,642 --> 00:31:28,582
Speaker 1: This is why.

530
00:31:28,462 --> 00:31:30,921
Speaker 3: Like one of the main arguments I make kind of

531
00:31:30,942 --> 00:31:32,862
Speaker 3: throughout the book, but especially at the end, is that

532
00:31:32,982 --> 00:31:37,002
Speaker 3: we have to reinstate the difference between individual free speech

533
00:31:37,062 --> 00:31:41,192
Speaker 3: and corporate speech. This is like a very toxic product

534
00:31:41,492 --> 00:31:46,972
Speaker 3: created in the U.S. and now disseminated globally. The idea

535
00:31:47,012 --> 00:31:51,191
Speaker 3: that corporations should have equal speech rights to individuals is

536
00:31:51,682 --> 00:31:55,612
Speaker 3: completely out of touch with reality. They have, you know,

537
00:31:55,652 --> 00:31:59,452
Speaker 3: a hundred times the budget to craft their message, get

538
00:31:59,472 --> 00:32:02,192
Speaker 3: it out, amplify it, all of those kinds of things.

539
00:32:03,222 --> 00:32:05,002
Speaker 3: And they should be held to a higher standard of

540
00:32:05,062 --> 00:32:09,982
Speaker 3: truth as well because of that. You know, there's absolutely

541
00:32:10,062 --> 00:32:13,722
Speaker 3: no reason that we can't say like, oh, you know,

542
00:32:13,842 --> 00:32:20,221
Speaker 3: companies shouldn't knowingly spread misleading information. I don't understand why

543
00:32:20,282 --> 00:32:24,272
Speaker 3: that's even remotely controversial. I mean, the easiest thing you

544
00:32:24,312 --> 00:32:27,422
Speaker 3: can do is like disengage from social media, right?

545
00:32:27,902 --> 00:32:29,372
Speaker 1: Just do it.

546
00:32:30,032 --> 00:32:32,122
Speaker 5: And we can regulate the tech platforms as well, which

547
00:32:32,172 --> 00:32:33,762
Speaker 5: is another proposal you made.

548
00:32:33,802 --> 00:32:34,762
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

549
00:32:34,922 --> 00:32:37,681
Speaker 4: That's another big one. That's another one that they're really

550
00:32:37,722 --> 00:32:39,402
Speaker 4: crying censorship over.

551
00:32:39,682 --> 00:32:45,872
Speaker 3: But the reality is these guys are not fighting for

552
00:32:45,942 --> 00:32:48,632
Speaker 3: your free speech rights. They're fighting for their right to

553
00:32:48,692 --> 00:32:51,692
Speaker 3: not be taxed the same as any other industry has

554
00:32:51,712 --> 00:32:56,772
Speaker 3: the entire history of capitalism. There's absolutely nothing unique. to

555
00:32:56,852 --> 00:33:00,152
Speaker 3: what they are doing. Um, it's just that they actually

556
00:33:00,192 --> 00:33:05,411
Speaker 3: have been very successful at sort of wrapping their anti-regulatory

557
00:33:05,492 --> 00:33:09,322
Speaker 3: campaigns in the language of, you know, social justice somehow.

558
00:33:10,102 --> 00:33:12,782
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's, it's ridiculous.

559
00:33:12,822 --> 00:33:16,122
Speaker 3: The idea that like Elon Musk is a populist is

560
00:33:16,222 --> 00:33:17,702
Speaker 3: completely fucking nuts.

561
00:33:21,722 --> 00:33:24,322
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but no, the world's upside down.

562
00:33:24,342 --> 00:33:24,421
Speaker 2: Yeah.

563
00:33:27,492 --> 00:33:31,632
Speaker 1: Stay tuned to hear Aline Brown's conversation with Nick Tilson.

564
00:33:31,812 --> 00:33:33,671
Speaker 1: That's coming up after a quick break.

565
00:33:33,692 --> 00:33:57,282
Speaker 7: So Hi folks, I'm Eileen Brown, Drilled Investigative Reporter and

566
00:33:57,342 --> 00:34:01,052
Speaker 7: Senior Editor. So it didn't get a ton of national

567
00:34:01,132 --> 00:34:04,392
Speaker 7: media attention when a police officer in the border town

568
00:34:04,452 --> 00:34:08,912
Speaker 7: of Rapid City, South Dakota claimed Nick Tilson, the founder

569
00:34:08,952 --> 00:34:12,741
Speaker 7: and CEO of the nonprofit Indian Collective, attempted to hit

570
00:34:12,762 --> 00:34:16,982
Speaker 7: him with his car. Nick said the charges, including aggravated

571
00:34:17,082 --> 00:34:22,712
Speaker 7: assault on a police officer, were politically motivated. Then last winter,

572
00:34:23,032 --> 00:34:25,491
Speaker 7: right around the time that Nick faced a jury trial,

573
00:34:25,512 --> 00:34:29,912
Speaker 7: an immigration and customs enforcement agent shot and killed Renee

574
00:34:29,951 --> 00:34:33,652
Speaker 7: Good in Minneapolis. The government's story was that she had

575
00:34:33,692 --> 00:34:36,031
Speaker 7: tried to hit the agent with her car, but the

576
00:34:36,092 --> 00:34:40,701
Speaker 7: video footage showed otherwise. This reminded me a lot of

577
00:34:40,782 --> 00:34:43,812
Speaker 7: Nick's case, so I decided to look more into it.

578
00:34:44,522 --> 00:34:47,222
Speaker 7: I actually got surveillance footage of his run-in with the cop,

579
00:34:47,962 --> 00:34:50,022
Speaker 7: and Drilled published a story about it, which you can

580
00:34:50,062 --> 00:34:53,812
Speaker 7: find in the show notes. Nick's charges were eventually dismissed

581
00:34:53,971 --> 00:34:57,592
Speaker 7: after a mistrial and a hung jury. I spoke to

582
00:34:57,632 --> 00:34:59,792
Speaker 7: Nick in person about all this last spring when I

583
00:34:59,872 --> 00:35:03,372
Speaker 7: visited Rapid City. We got into why this case is

584
00:35:03,471 --> 00:35:07,042
Speaker 7: representative of a type of judicial harassment that environmental and

585
00:35:07,102 --> 00:35:11,901
Speaker 7: Indigenous activists confront around the world. Nick also told me

586
00:35:12,022 --> 00:35:15,741
Speaker 7: about how Trump's crackdown on nonprofits has had a material

587
00:35:15,942 --> 00:35:21,611
Speaker 7: impact on his group's work. Here's the interview. So, you know,

588
00:35:21,672 --> 00:35:27,051
Speaker 7: we're here in Rapid City. What is a border town?

589
00:35:27,322 --> 00:35:30,301
Speaker 7: What makes Rapid City a border town? And what does

590
00:35:30,342 --> 00:35:34,381
Speaker 7: that mean for someone who is here trying to defend

591
00:35:34,522 --> 00:35:35,062
Speaker 7: the land.

592
00:35:35,122 --> 00:35:36,262
Speaker 6: Water, and environment?

593
00:35:37,302 --> 00:35:40,732
Speaker 2: Border towns, I mean, the reference around border towns is

594
00:35:41,491 --> 00:35:44,971
Speaker 2: towns that border the Indian reservations. And we've got nine

595
00:35:44,991 --> 00:35:49,012
Speaker 2: reservations in South Dakota, and this is the biggest town

596
00:35:49,072 --> 00:35:53,042
Speaker 2: in western South Dakota. And so we have Pine Ridge

597
00:35:53,062 --> 00:35:59,051
Speaker 2: Indian Reservation, Rosebud, Shine River, all in this area. And

598
00:35:59,352 --> 00:36:01,431
Speaker 2: this is a regional town, right? So it's not just

599
00:36:01,451 --> 00:36:05,551
Speaker 2: the Indians, but everybody comes here for their food, their

600
00:36:05,592 --> 00:36:11,122
Speaker 2: construction supplies, their materials. And the history of border towns

601
00:36:11,302 --> 00:36:13,902
Speaker 2: has usually been one of extraction as it relates to

602
00:36:13,982 --> 00:36:17,372
Speaker 2: Indian people. You know, we forced us onto the reservations

603
00:36:17,772 --> 00:36:20,412
Speaker 2: and on the reservations are some of the extreme pockets

604
00:36:20,431 --> 00:36:25,852
Speaker 2: of poverty in there with terrible economic conditions. And then

605
00:36:25,911 --> 00:36:29,212
Speaker 2: these border towns have been created over time all on

606
00:36:29,252 --> 00:36:32,631
Speaker 2: stolen land of Indian people. So Rapid City wouldn't be

607
00:36:32,692 --> 00:36:35,252
Speaker 2: here if it wasn't for the stealing of the Black

608
00:36:35,292 --> 00:36:38,632
Speaker 2: Hills and it wasn't for the mining industry, both in

609
00:36:38,772 --> 00:36:42,022
Speaker 2: gold and other forms of mining that have built the

610
00:36:42,221 --> 00:36:45,382
Speaker 2: regional economy here. And then there historically has just been

611
00:36:46,022 --> 00:36:49,982
Speaker 2: entrenched embedded racism in a lot of the border towns.

612
00:36:50,802 --> 00:36:56,511
Speaker 2: Even though, ironically, the border towns... actually depend on Indian

613
00:36:56,552 --> 00:37:00,272
Speaker 2: people to be part of their economic engine because we

614
00:37:00,372 --> 00:37:01,992
Speaker 2: come here and spend money here and we come here

615
00:37:02,032 --> 00:37:04,241
Speaker 2: and spend resources here. We contribute to the tax base

616
00:37:04,282 --> 00:37:08,761
Speaker 2: here and we're, we're a part of it. So, uh, Historically,

617
00:37:08,802 --> 00:37:11,942
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of racism, you know, monitoring license

618
00:37:11,982 --> 00:37:17,392
Speaker 2: plates that are firm reservations, pulling them over, harassing people. Historically,

619
00:37:17,971 --> 00:37:21,692
Speaker 2: you know, places like Rapid wouldn't serve Indian people and

620
00:37:21,712 --> 00:37:25,951
Speaker 2: the hotels wouldn't serve people in the restaurants. And so

621
00:37:25,991 --> 00:37:29,482
Speaker 2: there's a long history of of entrenched racism.

622
00:37:29,951 --> 00:37:32,522
Speaker 7: And yeah, the second part of that question, what does

623
00:37:32,562 --> 00:37:36,361
Speaker 7: that mean for someone who's here, who's Native, who's trying

624
00:37:36,382 --> 00:37:38,542
Speaker 7: to defend the land, water, and environment?

625
00:37:39,042 --> 00:37:41,592
Speaker 2: Well, we've got a lot of systemic racism to overcome.

626
00:37:42,192 --> 00:37:46,392
Speaker 2: So I always think that there's a difference between prejudice

627
00:37:46,951 --> 00:37:52,161
Speaker 2: and white supremacy. Prejudice is like, oh, somebody doesn't like

628
00:37:52,201 --> 00:37:55,752
Speaker 2: you because you're Indian. follows you around at the store

629
00:37:55,772 --> 00:37:57,692
Speaker 2: because they think you're going to steal something because you

630
00:37:57,931 --> 00:38:04,392
Speaker 2: have a braid and dark skin. Racism is systemic. How

631
00:38:04,451 --> 00:38:10,102
Speaker 2: that manifests itself is when you have Indians, 10% of

632
00:38:10,122 --> 00:38:13,182
Speaker 2: the population of the whole state, but represent 51% of

633
00:38:13,522 --> 00:38:15,482
Speaker 2: the people incarcerated in the whole state of South Dakota.

634
00:38:16,482 --> 00:38:21,651
Speaker 2: Structural racism is when Native American children in western South

635
00:38:21,672 --> 00:38:29,471
Speaker 2: Dakota have the lowest economic and education mobility than any

636
00:38:29,532 --> 00:38:34,832
Speaker 2: child in America, or that the people on Pine Ridge, Rosebud,

637
00:38:34,892 --> 00:38:38,241
Speaker 2: and Cheyenne River have the lowest life expectancy than any

638
00:38:38,302 --> 00:38:41,362
Speaker 2: human beings in the Western Hemisphere, with the exception of Haiti.

639
00:38:42,882 --> 00:38:48,741
Speaker 2: These are not opinions. These are facts. And those facts

640
00:38:49,582 --> 00:38:52,451
Speaker 2: are a result of systemic racism. So when you think

641
00:38:52,532 --> 00:38:58,511
Speaker 2: about being a water protector, a community organizer, in these conditions,

642
00:38:58,592 --> 00:39:01,491
Speaker 2: we're dealing with over 150, 200 years of entrenched systems

643
00:39:01,512 --> 00:39:08,972
Speaker 2: that have been built in to persecute our people and

644
00:39:09,752 --> 00:39:13,912
Speaker 2: not get equal protections under the law. And the stats

645
00:39:13,931 --> 00:39:17,212
Speaker 2: show that. So when you're trying to upend these systems,

646
00:39:17,852 --> 00:39:22,372
Speaker 2: you end up in a situation where it is extremely risky.

647
00:39:22,842 --> 00:39:27,062
Speaker 2: Because when you organize and you're calling out these systems,

648
00:39:27,241 --> 00:39:29,162
Speaker 2: in many ways what you're doing is holding up a mirror.

649
00:39:30,022 --> 00:39:32,361
Speaker 2: And when people are racist, that's one thing I learned

650
00:39:32,382 --> 00:39:36,781
Speaker 2: about racists is that When racist systems are the people

651
00:39:36,822 --> 00:39:38,991
Speaker 2: who uphold them and the mirror is held up to them,

652
00:39:39,862 --> 00:39:43,082
Speaker 2: there's shame. They don't like that. So they come down

653
00:39:43,142 --> 00:39:48,462
Speaker 2: on you even harder. And it manifests itself in the policing.

654
00:39:49,082 --> 00:39:55,042
Speaker 2: It manifests itself in over-prosecution and prosecutorial misconduct. It manifests

655
00:39:55,082 --> 00:39:58,782
Speaker 2: itself in ways for them to try to make community

656
00:39:58,862 --> 00:40:04,531
Speaker 2: organizers look like they're criminals. When actually they're changemakers and

657
00:40:04,632 --> 00:40:08,812
Speaker 2: social justice warriors and warriors for Mother Earth. And they

658
00:40:08,832 --> 00:40:12,691
Speaker 2: try to stack laws against you, you know. And they also, like,

659
00:40:12,872 --> 00:40:17,132
Speaker 2: we live in these conditions now where they're trying to

660
00:40:17,152 --> 00:40:20,692
Speaker 2: get to the point where they can call you a

661
00:40:20,812 --> 00:40:26,882
Speaker 2: domestic terrorist. Because if they can use the T-word... I

662
00:40:26,922 --> 00:40:28,701
Speaker 2: call it the T word, then they can get away

663
00:40:28,741 --> 00:40:32,102
Speaker 2: with everything. They can get away with violating your civil liberties.

664
00:40:32,122 --> 00:40:34,681
Speaker 2: They can get away with wiretapping your homes. They can

665
00:40:35,721 --> 00:40:38,161
Speaker 2: get access to your information. They can monitor you. They

666
00:40:38,201 --> 00:40:41,161
Speaker 2: can do all those things. And that's why there's been

667
00:40:41,262 --> 00:40:45,761
Speaker 2: efforts throughout the years to try to, you know, coin

668
00:40:46,532 --> 00:40:52,211
Speaker 2: oil pipelines and mining projects as quote unquote critical infrastructure,

669
00:40:52,971 --> 00:40:58,132
Speaker 2: because critical infrastructure means it's a critical for America, and

670
00:40:58,152 --> 00:41:03,531
Speaker 2: therefore any sort of protesting against critical infrastructure, then you

671
00:41:03,592 --> 00:41:06,801
Speaker 2: must be a domestic terrorist in order to be doing that.

672
00:41:08,522 --> 00:41:11,142
Speaker 2: And so there's been all of these efforts to really

673
00:41:11,221 --> 00:41:13,861
Speaker 2: change the landscape in the field. And you see that

674
00:41:13,922 --> 00:41:16,642
Speaker 2: out here. And I've seen that manifest in many ways

675
00:41:16,802 --> 00:41:17,262
Speaker 2: in my work.

676
00:41:19,092 --> 00:41:21,411
Speaker 7: And so, you know, getting to this trial that you

677
00:41:21,451 --> 00:41:24,931
Speaker 7: recently had to go through, what happened that day?

678
00:41:25,052 --> 00:41:26,812
Speaker 6: Why did you pull into that spot?

679
00:41:27,212 --> 00:41:27,411
Speaker 2: Yeah.

680
00:41:27,451 --> 00:41:29,511
Speaker 6: Can you just share that with us?

681
00:41:29,792 --> 00:41:31,792
Speaker 2: I think the important thing is to understand the whole arc.

682
00:41:32,032 --> 00:41:36,761
Speaker 2: You know, it really started in 2020. You know, the

683
00:41:36,822 --> 00:41:39,362
Speaker 2: protest at Mount Rushmore. We shut down the road and

684
00:41:40,562 --> 00:41:42,962
Speaker 2: Trump had to, he couldn't drive to Mount Rushmore. He

685
00:41:42,982 --> 00:41:45,522
Speaker 2: had to take a helicopter from the Air Force base.

686
00:41:46,402 --> 00:41:48,792
Speaker 2: They didn't like that. And they came down on charges

687
00:41:48,852 --> 00:41:53,362
Speaker 2: with me. I was facing 17 years for assault, burglary,

688
00:41:54,012 --> 00:41:57,702
Speaker 2: and grand theft of the stealing of a police shield.

689
00:41:58,262 --> 00:42:01,881
Speaker 2: And so those charges were dropped in 2022. Almost immediately

690
00:42:02,302 --> 00:42:06,342
Speaker 2: in 2022, this incident happened. It wasn't a protest. It

691
00:42:06,392 --> 00:42:08,971
Speaker 2: wasn't even really a community patrol. I was driving home.

692
00:42:09,962 --> 00:42:12,701
Speaker 2: And we have a culture here where we're always looking

693
00:42:12,762 --> 00:42:16,762
Speaker 2: out for each other. Sometimes we have organized patrols where

694
00:42:17,122 --> 00:42:21,372
Speaker 2: we're actually actively patrolling to make sure that police aren't

695
00:42:21,532 --> 00:42:26,151
Speaker 2: committing police brutality against Native people, especially unsheltered. This wasn't

696
00:42:26,192 --> 00:42:28,712
Speaker 2: even a design patrol. I had dropped off my son

697
00:42:29,931 --> 00:42:32,582
Speaker 2: after his birthday and I was going home. And I

698
00:42:32,622 --> 00:42:35,361
Speaker 2: just happened to look over and notice a cop that

699
00:42:35,402 --> 00:42:38,502
Speaker 2: was coming up on an unsheltered relative. Sometimes you just

700
00:42:38,522 --> 00:42:41,172
Speaker 2: show up and observe. They just kind of leave him alone.

701
00:42:41,512 --> 00:42:43,292
Speaker 2: Or if you record, if you pull your phone out,

702
00:42:43,312 --> 00:42:46,172
Speaker 2: then they leave him alone. I started pulling around the

703
00:42:46,212 --> 00:42:50,071
Speaker 2: block and I started pulling into this parking stall. And

704
00:42:50,272 --> 00:42:51,812
Speaker 2: at the very front of the parking stall, all the

705
00:42:51,852 --> 00:42:53,472
Speaker 2: way to the left, kind of on the line, this

706
00:42:53,532 --> 00:42:58,181
Speaker 2: cop was standing there. He looks back, wasn't concerned that

707
00:42:58,201 --> 00:43:00,002
Speaker 2: I was there at all. And so then I pulled

708
00:43:00,181 --> 00:43:02,461
Speaker 2: the rest of the way into the stall. The truck

709
00:43:02,482 --> 00:43:04,462
Speaker 2: kind of lunged forward a little bit whenever I pressed

710
00:43:04,522 --> 00:43:07,462
Speaker 2: on the gas to pull forward. And then I immediately

711
00:43:07,502 --> 00:43:09,301
Speaker 2: pressed on the brake and then kind of came the

712
00:43:09,322 --> 00:43:22,832
Speaker 2: rest of my way in there. All of a sudden,

713
00:43:23,252 --> 00:43:25,471
Speaker 2: out of nowhere, not the cop, but a different guy,

714
00:43:26,712 --> 00:43:29,661
Speaker 2: a white guy who just came from the bar, came

715
00:43:29,741 --> 00:43:33,102
Speaker 2: running over and was like, that guy just tried to

716
00:43:33,161 --> 00:43:36,551
Speaker 2: run you over. And says that to the cop. And

717
00:43:36,911 --> 00:43:38,232
Speaker 2: I don't even know if he was with the cop

718
00:43:38,312 --> 00:43:40,272
Speaker 2: or whatever, but this guy's hollering at me.

719
00:43:40,292 --> 00:43:43,302
Speaker 5: Move back up, please. No, this is a public parking spot.

720
00:43:43,451 --> 00:43:44,242
Speaker 3: I understand that.

721
00:43:44,282 --> 00:43:45,642
Speaker 2: You almost ran this office for over.

722
00:43:45,721 --> 00:43:46,861
Speaker 5: I almost ran over nobody.

723
00:43:48,012 --> 00:43:52,762
Speaker 2: And then that cop notices it's me and then says,

724
00:43:54,282 --> 00:43:56,842
Speaker 2: Nick Tilson gets on his radio and says, Nick Tilson

725
00:43:56,862 --> 00:43:57,941
Speaker 2: just tried to run me over.

726
00:43:58,661 --> 00:44:01,162
Speaker 6: P-15, Nick Tilson just tried to hit me with his car.

727
00:44:01,642 --> 00:44:02,681
Speaker 5: We got him.

728
00:44:02,721 --> 00:44:09,762
Speaker 2: All right, we got that guy. Within 47 seconds, cops

729
00:44:09,802 --> 00:44:12,782
Speaker 2: pulled in, my vehicle was surrounded. Step out of the vehicle.

730
00:44:12,802 --> 00:44:15,862
Speaker 5: Step out of the vehicle. I'm not stepping out of

731
00:44:15,892 --> 00:44:18,232
Speaker 5: the vehicle. You just almost hit this.

732
00:44:18,212 --> 00:44:18,772
Speaker 2: Officer with your car.

733
00:44:18,792 --> 00:44:19,171
Speaker 3: No, I did not.

734
00:44:19,792 --> 00:44:22,432
Speaker 2: I pulled into a public parking spot, right?

735
00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:23,592
Speaker 5: That I was standing in, correct?

736
00:44:24,312 --> 00:44:26,451
Speaker 2: You were standing right over there, in that corner of it.

737
00:44:26,772 --> 00:44:28,232
Speaker 5: Okay, step out of the vehicle, Mr. Chelsea.

738
00:44:28,272 --> 00:44:31,471
Speaker 2: I'm not stepping out of the vehicle. Not for a

739
00:44:31,471 --> 00:44:38,152
Speaker 2: fucking minute. Some people showed up. and started recording. And

740
00:44:38,172 --> 00:44:41,552
Speaker 2: then the supervisor came and I was like, is somebody

741
00:44:41,572 --> 00:44:46,982
Speaker 2: going to interview me and ask me what happened? I'm

742
00:44:47,022 --> 00:44:49,661
Speaker 2: sitting in this truck and nobody has told me I'm

743
00:44:49,681 --> 00:44:51,842
Speaker 2: being detained. Nobody's told me that I'm arrested. Nobody has

744
00:44:51,862 --> 00:44:54,442
Speaker 2: told me anything. So I told him exactly my side

745
00:44:54,462 --> 00:44:58,032
Speaker 2: of the story and what happened. The supervisor says, oh, okay, well,

746
00:44:58,622 --> 00:45:02,952
Speaker 2: we're going to let you go. This was in June

747
00:45:02,971 --> 00:45:07,532
Speaker 2: of of 2022. They let me go. I never heard anything.

748
00:45:09,172 --> 00:45:13,511
Speaker 2: A year later, in June of 2023, we announced a

749
00:45:13,552 --> 00:45:16,972
Speaker 2: protest that was going to be on the 4th of July.

750
00:45:16,991 --> 00:45:20,652
Speaker 2: It was a march towards justice right in front of

751
00:45:20,672 --> 00:45:23,332
Speaker 2: the police station. But at that point between 2020 and 2023,

752
00:45:23,312 --> 00:45:34,411
Speaker 2: the Rapid City Police Department had killed six people. All

753
00:45:34,431 --> 00:45:36,911
Speaker 2: of them were Native people. There was not even ever

754
00:45:36,991 --> 00:45:41,522
Speaker 2: a charge brought against any police officer. And so we

755
00:45:41,542 --> 00:45:47,082
Speaker 2: wanted to have this protest. And holy crap, it got

756
00:45:47,122 --> 00:45:51,482
Speaker 2: politicized really fast. The governor came out, said they were

757
00:45:51,502 --> 00:45:53,922
Speaker 2: going to call in the National Guard. The mayor was

758
00:45:53,962 --> 00:45:57,472
Speaker 2: hosting a press conference. And they were sending people around

759
00:45:57,512 --> 00:46:01,352
Speaker 2: downtown telling local business owners to board up their doors,

760
00:46:01,451 --> 00:46:05,462
Speaker 2: that there's these radicals coming to town, even though we're

761
00:46:05,482 --> 00:46:10,241
Speaker 2: from here. And then what happened is, and this came

762
00:46:10,302 --> 00:46:14,562
Speaker 2: out in the trial, the prosecutor sat down with the

763
00:46:14,602 --> 00:46:18,762
Speaker 2: chief of police and they made a decision together. Hey,

764
00:46:19,582 --> 00:46:23,091
Speaker 2: what's going on with this Nick Tilson case? And they

765
00:46:23,132 --> 00:46:25,611
Speaker 2: made the decision to charge me in that case. So.

766
00:46:26,642 --> 00:46:31,012
Speaker 2: I received a warrant for my arrest on 4 p.m.

767
00:46:31,052 --> 00:46:36,852
Speaker 2: on a Friday. Monday was a holiday, and then the

768
00:46:36,892 --> 00:46:40,212
Speaker 2: next day was the fourth. And so it was clear

769
00:46:40,252 --> 00:46:42,552
Speaker 2: that they wanted to either arrest me over the weekend

770
00:46:44,642 --> 00:46:47,781
Speaker 2: or have me show up to the protest with an

771
00:46:47,902 --> 00:46:51,622
Speaker 2: active warrant so that they could arrest me there. And

772
00:46:52,322 --> 00:46:57,971
Speaker 2: right after they filed the charges, the prosecutor did a

773
00:46:57,991 --> 00:47:02,161
Speaker 2: press conference and released a press statement. I was away

774
00:47:02,221 --> 00:47:05,902
Speaker 2: at ceremony. I finished my ceremony. I was notified that

775
00:47:05,942 --> 00:47:07,962
Speaker 2: there was this warrant for my arrest. And then that

776
00:47:08,042 --> 00:47:11,002
Speaker 2: following Monday, I came and turned myself in. It was

777
00:47:11,092 --> 00:47:13,551
Speaker 2: just a book and release, turned myself in. I don't

778
00:47:13,572 --> 00:47:16,051
Speaker 2: know if they expected me to do that. And it

779
00:47:16,112 --> 00:47:19,651
Speaker 2: actually turned into a very powerful protest. It really turned

780
00:47:19,692 --> 00:47:24,592
Speaker 2: into kind of like a ceremony. People prayed, sang, cried, spoke.

781
00:47:25,382 --> 00:47:32,132
Speaker 2: They got to say their piece. And so these charges

782
00:47:32,192 --> 00:47:40,011
Speaker 2: were this very, very... This incident that was nothing, essentially.

783
00:47:40,872 --> 00:47:44,542
Speaker 2: And then it just stretched on for years. You know,

784
00:47:44,882 --> 00:47:48,721
Speaker 2: I couldn't leave the United States. I couldn't leave the jurisdiction.

785
00:47:49,462 --> 00:47:53,381
Speaker 2: Every time I went anywhere, I had to get written permission. Right.

786
00:47:53,882 --> 00:47:55,582
Speaker 6: The jurisdiction is the county or what?

787
00:47:55,842 --> 00:47:59,262
Speaker 2: Yeah. Pending the county. Wow. I also have a place

788
00:47:59,342 --> 00:48:02,072
Speaker 2: on the res on Pine Ridge. You drive to the

789
00:48:02,132 --> 00:48:04,972
Speaker 2: airport and you're outside the county. You drive to anywhere.

790
00:48:05,052 --> 00:48:10,272
Speaker 2: You're outside of here. Everybody watches law and order and

791
00:48:10,312 --> 00:48:14,051
Speaker 2: shit and says you're innocent until proven guilty. Well, some

792
00:48:14,092 --> 00:48:15,782
Speaker 2: of your rights are taken from you at the time

793
00:48:15,802 --> 00:48:17,482
Speaker 2: of indictment.

794
00:48:17,701 --> 00:48:22,082
Speaker 7: Ultimately, this trial goes down and there's a hung jury

795
00:48:22,302 --> 00:48:24,852
Speaker 7: and it was a mistrial. What did you think about that?

796
00:48:27,752 --> 00:48:31,702
Speaker 2: It was just racism at play. I took the stand

797
00:48:31,962 --> 00:48:33,922
Speaker 2: and I was on the stand for two hours, whatever

798
00:48:33,942 --> 00:48:38,401
Speaker 2: it was, you know. And it was interesting because their

799
00:48:38,522 --> 00:48:41,062
Speaker 2: legal strategy the entire time was to limit it down

800
00:48:41,181 --> 00:48:44,281
Speaker 2: to this very narrow incident to happen just there because

801
00:48:44,302 --> 00:48:48,941
Speaker 2: they felt like that narrow incident was enough to try

802
00:48:49,022 --> 00:48:54,162
Speaker 2: to get a conviction. But in the cross-examination, it became

803
00:48:54,181 --> 00:48:56,881
Speaker 2: very clear that this was political. They wanted to attack

804
00:48:56,902 --> 00:48:59,361
Speaker 2: the mission of NDN. They wanted to try to say

805
00:48:59,402 --> 00:49:04,071
Speaker 2: what we do in community patrols and community care was villainizing.

806
00:49:04,652 --> 00:49:06,272
Speaker 2: I stand by what we do. We need to do

807
00:49:06,332 --> 00:49:09,951
Speaker 2: community care. In fact, when community patrols and people hold

808
00:49:09,991 --> 00:49:13,951
Speaker 2: police accountable, it's safer for everybody, including the cops. It's

809
00:49:13,971 --> 00:49:17,182
Speaker 2: safer for the whole community. And this trial took place

810
00:49:19,342 --> 00:49:24,931
Speaker 2: the same month as... The murder of Rene Good. Same

811
00:49:24,971 --> 00:49:27,522
Speaker 2: month as the murder. A week, 10 days after the

812
00:49:28,502 --> 00:49:33,502
Speaker 2: murder of Alex Peretti. Who were doing what? Just simply

813
00:49:34,042 --> 00:49:36,862
Speaker 2: trying to keep their people and their community safe. That's it.

814
00:49:38,532 --> 00:49:41,312
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, the murder of Rene Good in particular

815
00:49:41,572 --> 00:49:45,192
Speaker 7: obviously involved a vehicle. The claim was that she was

816
00:49:45,252 --> 00:49:48,752
Speaker 7: trying to run over this ICE agent and And she

817
00:49:48,792 --> 00:49:52,152
Speaker 7: was labeled a domestic terrorist even after she was killed.

818
00:49:52,612 --> 00:49:54,232
Speaker 6: Did that remind you of your case?

819
00:49:55,072 --> 00:49:58,902
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. In fact, the prosecution brought it up. In

820
00:49:58,942 --> 00:50:01,681
Speaker 2: jury selection, the prosecution said, hey, how are we going

821
00:50:01,701 --> 00:50:03,522
Speaker 2: to deal with the issue of ICE? You know, because

822
00:50:03,542 --> 00:50:06,502
Speaker 2: there's a lot of different people's ranging of different opinions. So, yeah,

823
00:50:06,582 --> 00:50:08,642
Speaker 2: I thought about it. I looked at those videos and,

824
00:50:08,661 --> 00:50:12,852
Speaker 2: you know, the officer in my case was never touched.

825
00:50:13,112 --> 00:50:17,772
Speaker 2: My vehicle never, you know, never was close to hitting him.

826
00:50:18,512 --> 00:50:20,471
Speaker 2: He went on the stand and said that he feared

827
00:50:20,512 --> 00:50:24,011
Speaker 2: for his life. Nobody in that courtroom believed that. They

828
00:50:24,052 --> 00:50:28,202
Speaker 2: had a completely weak case. We're like, we shredded the

829
00:50:28,221 --> 00:50:32,761
Speaker 2: case to pieces in a courtroom packed by elders. And

830
00:50:32,802 --> 00:50:37,661
Speaker 2: so I really chalked up the mistrial as a win.

831
00:50:38,262 --> 00:50:41,322
Speaker 2: What people don't realize is when prosecutors and police bring

832
00:50:41,962 --> 00:50:46,342
Speaker 2: politically motivated charges like this, it's often a narrative war.

833
00:50:46,822 --> 00:50:49,321
Speaker 2: Sometimes it has nothing to do with the law. They

834
00:50:49,382 --> 00:50:53,542
Speaker 2: actually want to use taxpayers' dollars to try to create

835
00:50:53,562 --> 00:50:57,161
Speaker 2: a narrative war and make it look like they're being

836
00:50:58,122 --> 00:51:00,602
Speaker 2: hard on these criminals and trying to discredit what we

837
00:51:00,741 --> 00:51:02,741
Speaker 2: are and what we're about and what we're fighting for

838
00:51:02,782 --> 00:51:06,562
Speaker 2: in the world. And, I mean, I'll be honest, they

839
00:51:06,602 --> 00:51:09,922
Speaker 2: failed miserably at that because the amount of support that

840
00:51:09,942 --> 00:51:13,082
Speaker 2: we had from this community locally, the amount of support

841
00:51:13,122 --> 00:51:15,842
Speaker 2: we've had nationally, the amount of support that we have

842
00:51:16,402 --> 00:51:22,382
Speaker 2: from community leaders... here just outweighed and we had the

843
00:51:22,402 --> 00:51:26,502
Speaker 2: stronger legal argument and we we battled it out you

844
00:51:26,542 --> 00:51:29,721
Speaker 2: know but it was it was challenging because when you

845
00:51:29,802 --> 00:51:34,591
Speaker 2: face when the charges are brought against you even though

846
00:51:34,612 --> 00:51:41,012
Speaker 2: they're bullshit it is stressful and especially in a state

847
00:51:41,132 --> 00:51:45,272
Speaker 2: where you're a native american and native americans make up

848
00:51:45,272 --> 00:51:47,382
Speaker 2: 51 of the people incarcerated in all the jails in

849
00:51:47,402 --> 00:51:50,022
Speaker 2: the state of south dakota So yeah, was I worried?

850
00:51:50,082 --> 00:51:54,092
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I was worried. But I also knew and

851
00:51:54,142 --> 00:51:57,892
Speaker 2: realized over time that battling these charges and bringing the

852
00:51:57,931 --> 00:52:02,672
Speaker 2: community along with and being transparent, in the end was

853
00:52:02,732 --> 00:52:06,451
Speaker 2: transparent to our partners, to our community, to our funders,

854
00:52:06,552 --> 00:52:10,011
Speaker 2: to our supporters. And we educated them on what this

855
00:52:10,072 --> 00:52:10,552
Speaker 2: was about.

856
00:52:10,572 --> 00:52:17,032
Speaker 7: And you know, how does this fit into a wider

857
00:52:17,112 --> 00:52:24,382
Speaker 7: context of... the criminal legal system being used to suppress

858
00:52:24,822 --> 00:52:28,341
Speaker 7: the voices of land defenders. Obviously, right now, you guys

859
00:52:28,382 --> 00:52:33,402
Speaker 7: are trying to fight against extraction in a sacred place

860
00:52:33,661 --> 00:52:36,931
Speaker 7: here in the Black Hills. How does this fit into

861
00:52:36,971 --> 00:52:38,052
Speaker 7: that wider context?

862
00:52:38,892 --> 00:52:41,492
Speaker 2: I mean, you look at all the work that NDN's doing.

863
00:52:41,752 --> 00:52:45,551
Speaker 2: We're in our eighth year of existence, and I was

864
00:52:45,612 --> 00:52:49,372
Speaker 2: under indictment for six of those eight years. it shows

865
00:52:49,732 --> 00:52:54,102
Speaker 2: that they're intimidated when people organize. When people organize money,

866
00:52:54,362 --> 00:52:58,801
Speaker 2: when people organize people, when people organize movement, it shows

867
00:52:58,842 --> 00:53:01,602
Speaker 2: that they will use selective prosecution, that they will violate

868
00:53:01,642 --> 00:53:05,632
Speaker 2: their own laws, that they sworn an oath to, to

869
00:53:05,692 --> 00:53:08,612
Speaker 2: come after people who are actually standing up for justice.

870
00:53:09,692 --> 00:53:12,031
Speaker 2: And so in the context of everything that's happening in

871
00:53:12,072 --> 00:53:16,212
Speaker 2: this country, most of the efforts that the law enforcement

872
00:53:16,272 --> 00:53:21,531
Speaker 2: and the prosecutors have done in cahoots with corporations, in

873
00:53:21,592 --> 00:53:27,152
Speaker 2: cahoots with violent police forces, is actually weaken the democracy.

874
00:53:27,672 --> 00:53:31,132
Speaker 2: There's an effort to weaken the democracy. There's no consequences

875
00:53:31,172 --> 00:53:34,612
Speaker 2: for them to do this either. I spent the last,

876
00:53:35,352 --> 00:53:42,262
Speaker 2: you know, three, four years, or even six years, spending resources, being,

877
00:53:42,442 --> 00:53:45,462
Speaker 2: worrying I'm going to go off to prison. My son,

878
00:53:46,402 --> 00:53:49,942
Speaker 2: my son told me, he said, you know, I was

879
00:53:49,942 --> 00:53:55,082
Speaker 2: 10 years old when this happened. And I'm 15 now.

880
00:53:56,802 --> 00:54:00,622
Speaker 2: That was a third of my life. What they're trying

881
00:54:00,661 --> 00:54:04,772
Speaker 2: to do is tire people out. They're trying to drain

882
00:54:04,812 --> 00:54:08,132
Speaker 2: the resources of the movement so that the resources are

883
00:54:08,272 --> 00:54:13,931
Speaker 2: spent battling them instead of moving those resources into community

884
00:54:14,272 --> 00:54:17,111
Speaker 2: to solve these very problems that we're trying to do

885
00:54:17,192 --> 00:54:19,531
Speaker 2: or to protect Mother Earth So when you think of

886
00:54:19,572 --> 00:54:23,091
Speaker 2: these situations, okay, they're going to go after, you know,

887
00:54:24,612 --> 00:54:28,322
Speaker 2: they're going to go after Greenpeace because there's an entity

888
00:54:28,362 --> 00:54:31,042
Speaker 2: for them to sue. They're going to come after me.

889
00:54:31,842 --> 00:54:34,922
Speaker 2: They're going to go after Georgia Fort in Minneapolis. They're

890
00:54:34,942 --> 00:54:38,522
Speaker 2: going to go after these visible people who have the

891
00:54:39,002 --> 00:54:43,931
Speaker 2: ability to expose what they are doing. And so their

892
00:54:43,991 --> 00:54:50,382
Speaker 2: approaches are strategic. And They're trying to not only diffuse

893
00:54:50,862 --> 00:54:54,221
Speaker 2: the light that's being held on the injustice that they're perpetuating,

894
00:54:54,942 --> 00:54:58,202
Speaker 2: they're trying to make us out to look like we're criminals.

895
00:54:58,582 --> 00:55:01,922
Speaker 2: Greenpeace is not a criminal organization. Indian Collective is not

896
00:55:01,942 --> 00:55:08,242
Speaker 2: a criminal organization. We're environmental justice and social justice organizations

897
00:55:08,822 --> 00:55:11,821
Speaker 2: that are fighting for the protection of Mother Earth for

898
00:55:11,982 --> 00:55:14,602
Speaker 2: all people. That's what we stand for in the world.

899
00:55:15,181 --> 00:55:17,622
Speaker 2: And I think that's what we're up against is that

900
00:55:17,642 --> 00:55:22,502
Speaker 2: there is this these narrative wars are turning into real wars.

901
00:55:23,542 --> 00:55:27,901
Speaker 2: And in this process of these narrative wars turning into

902
00:55:27,962 --> 00:55:32,801
Speaker 2: real wars, they do not care at all about the

903
00:55:32,962 --> 00:55:36,422
Speaker 2: actual impact on the weakening of democracy or people's human rights.

904
00:55:39,201 --> 00:55:43,551
Speaker 7: So I want to ask, you know, National Security Presidential

905
00:55:43,752 --> 00:55:49,822
Speaker 7: Memo 7. basically commands law enforcement agencies of all stripes

906
00:55:50,042 --> 00:55:55,872
Speaker 7: to investigate a range of sort of like leftist organizations

907
00:55:56,112 --> 00:56:02,572
Speaker 7: construed as supporting terrorism. Among the types of ideologies this

908
00:56:02,692 --> 00:56:08,312
Speaker 7: memo says, you know, supports domestic terrorism is anti-Americanism. At

909
00:56:08,352 --> 00:56:12,212
Speaker 7: the same time, you have organizations, right-wing organizations like the

910
00:56:12,272 --> 00:56:18,192
Speaker 7: Capital Research Center naming Indian Collective explicitly as an organization

911
00:56:18,712 --> 00:56:22,451
Speaker 7: essentially to keep an eye on. That same organization is

912
00:56:22,572 --> 00:56:28,342
Speaker 7: recasting just the term Turtle Island as being connected to criminality.

913
00:56:28,892 --> 00:56:32,242
Speaker 7: So I'm curious about how all of this pressure from

914
00:56:32,302 --> 00:56:34,642
Speaker 7: the federal government, you know, these threats from the Trump

915
00:56:34,661 --> 00:56:38,951
Speaker 7: administration to go after nonprofits, is impacting Indian Collective?

916
00:56:41,752 --> 00:56:43,632
Speaker 2: I think the biggest impact on NDN has been a

917
00:56:43,652 --> 00:56:47,031
Speaker 2: chilling effect. There's been efforts to try to discredit us,

918
00:56:47,312 --> 00:56:50,301
Speaker 2: and there was a congressional report done. We had an

919
00:56:50,502 --> 00:56:54,122
Speaker 2: IRS audit that we, quite frankly, passed in flying colors

920
00:56:54,221 --> 00:56:57,821
Speaker 2: because we keep a tight ship here. We follow nonprofit

921
00:56:57,862 --> 00:57:01,962
Speaker 2: laws and rules. But whenever the federal government tries to

922
00:57:02,602 --> 00:57:06,892
Speaker 2: issue these types of memos, What it does is it

923
00:57:06,911 --> 00:57:10,672
Speaker 2: creates a chilling effect, right? So funders are often taking

924
00:57:10,692 --> 00:57:15,611
Speaker 2: a little bit longer to underwrite grants to organizations. The

925
00:57:15,672 --> 00:57:18,532
Speaker 2: one good thing I'll say, we haven't experienced a huge

926
00:57:18,572 --> 00:57:21,212
Speaker 2: amount of people pulling out of funding. I think that

927
00:57:21,252 --> 00:57:24,092
Speaker 2: these funders are really wanting to continue to support us,

928
00:57:24,812 --> 00:57:28,292
Speaker 2: but we have to go through their legal departments and

929
00:57:28,312 --> 00:57:30,952
Speaker 2: they have to look at risk aversion. And they have

930
00:57:30,972 --> 00:57:36,742
Speaker 2: to look at, is NDN Collective too risky? Are they

931
00:57:36,782 --> 00:57:40,222
Speaker 2: attracting too much attention? Will their activity bring attention to us?

932
00:57:40,982 --> 00:57:43,862
Speaker 2: And the result of that creates a delay in funding.

933
00:57:45,052 --> 00:57:48,372
Speaker 2: In addition to that, a delay in funding and sort

934
00:57:48,412 --> 00:57:53,052
Speaker 2: of longer underwriting. And we've had some funders pull out.

935
00:57:53,652 --> 00:57:55,312
Speaker 2: We had a large funder pull out at one point.

936
00:57:56,092 --> 00:58:01,442
Speaker 2: Their decision was they did not believe that Investing into

937
00:58:01,482 --> 00:58:04,572
Speaker 2: Indigenous self-determination was an evidence-based practice.

938
00:58:06,012 --> 00:58:07,012
Speaker 6: Can you say who that was?

939
00:58:07,492 --> 00:58:10,062
Speaker 2: Blue Meridian Partners. And I will say who that is.

940
00:58:10,072 --> 00:58:17,412
Speaker 2: Because I disagree wholeheartedly. Investing into self-determination anywhere is one

941
00:58:17,432 --> 00:58:20,052
Speaker 2: of the best investments you can make into communities. And

942
00:58:20,072 --> 00:58:23,762
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if you're conservative or liberal or progressive.

943
00:58:24,622 --> 00:58:30,892
Speaker 2: Everybody wants people who are directly... impacted by the things

944
00:58:30,912 --> 00:58:32,572
Speaker 2: that we're trying to change in the world, putting them

945
00:58:32,612 --> 00:58:35,632
Speaker 2: in a driver's seat of change. That's what self-determination is.

946
00:58:35,662 --> 00:58:38,202
Speaker 2: It's the only way change ever happens. Change does not

947
00:58:38,242 --> 00:58:40,382
Speaker 2: happen from the top down. It happens from the bottom up.

948
00:58:41,682 --> 00:58:44,502
Speaker 2: And that's what self-determination work is. So yeah, I think

949
00:58:44,522 --> 00:58:48,002
Speaker 2: that Blue Medium Partners was completely off par in that.

950
00:58:48,502 --> 00:58:52,752
Speaker 2: And it sucked because they were a big partner. I mean,

951
00:58:52,952 --> 00:58:55,592
Speaker 2: they had funded us for a long time and we

952
00:58:55,612 --> 00:58:57,092
Speaker 2: were working towards a bigger partnership.

953
00:58:57,922 --> 00:59:01,082
Speaker 6: And did that happen after Trump started making these threats?

954
00:59:02,562 --> 00:59:07,642
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Happened in 2025. So the timing of it was crazy.

955
00:59:09,162 --> 00:59:11,232
Speaker 7: Just a quick note, we did reach out to Blue

956
00:59:11,252 --> 00:59:14,692
Speaker 7: Meridian partners about this and a spokesperson sent a statement.

957
00:59:15,432 --> 00:59:18,102
Speaker 7: It said, Blue Meridian's two-and-a-half-year investment wrapped up as planned

958
00:59:18,122 --> 00:59:33,892
Speaker 7: in January 2026. The unrestricted grant to Endian Collective was

959
00:59:33,952 --> 00:59:37,072
Speaker 7: made through the studio at Blue Meridian, which provides visionary

960
00:59:37,132 --> 00:59:40,332
Speaker 7: leaders with flexible resources to explore strategies that help them

961
00:59:40,352 --> 00:59:44,172
Speaker 7: prepare for future growth. The studio provides a one-time investment

962
00:59:44,232 --> 00:59:47,072
Speaker 7: so that organizations can test and enhance their work solving

963
00:59:47,112 --> 00:59:50,722
Speaker 7: societal challenges as a proving ground of readiness for future

964
00:59:50,802 --> 00:59:54,722
Speaker 7: scaling investments. Blue Meridian invests further in a subset of

965
00:59:54,782 --> 00:59:55,982
Speaker 7: these organizations.

966
00:59:57,182 --> 00:59:57,862
Speaker 6: Back to the interview.

967
00:59:59,712 --> 01:00:02,912
Speaker 2: So you have all this, what's happening in philanthropy. And

968
01:00:02,952 --> 01:00:06,572
Speaker 2: then you literally have what it's, what's happening with all

969
01:00:06,592 --> 01:00:10,602
Speaker 2: of the attacks on DEI. I mean, we just got

970
01:00:10,642 --> 01:00:13,302
Speaker 2: another letter last week from a USDA grant that we

971
01:00:13,342 --> 01:00:16,602
Speaker 2: got that they send out to all of the USDA grant,

972
01:00:16,762 --> 01:00:20,742
Speaker 2: grantees in the whole nation for that particular grant program,

973
01:00:21,302 --> 01:00:27,332
Speaker 2: basically canceling the grant. Wow. And, and now of course,

974
01:00:27,452 --> 01:00:29,912
Speaker 2: all the grantees are going to appeal it. We were

975
01:00:29,972 --> 01:00:32,852
Speaker 2: part of an appeal. The Minneapolis Foundation had received a

976
01:00:32,892 --> 01:00:35,792
Speaker 2: big EPA grant in which NDN Collective was a named

977
01:00:35,832 --> 01:00:42,032
Speaker 2: partner in that grant. And the Minneapolis Foundation and the partners,

978
01:00:42,272 --> 01:00:46,612
Speaker 2: you know, sued and won that they couldn't revoke this grant.

979
01:00:47,692 --> 01:00:51,142
Speaker 2: But that is the climate that we're in. And NDN

980
01:00:51,302 --> 01:00:54,862
Speaker 2: had had to downsize. You know, we were at 100 staff.

981
01:00:57,402 --> 01:01:02,132
Speaker 2: before Trump was inaugurated. And today we're at 52. Wow.

982
01:01:02,192 --> 01:01:03,532
Speaker 6: That's a huge downsizing.

983
01:01:04,092 --> 01:01:07,672
Speaker 2: And it was what we had to do. It was

984
01:01:07,692 --> 01:01:09,852
Speaker 2: what we had to do because the landscape has changed.

985
01:01:10,312 --> 01:01:13,832
Speaker 2: The landscape has changed. And these employees were, you know,

986
01:01:13,852 --> 01:01:17,822
Speaker 2: these are families and amazing people. And I'm so glad

987
01:01:17,862 --> 01:01:19,782
Speaker 2: that so many of them went on to other places

988
01:01:19,842 --> 01:01:23,002
Speaker 2: to go do good work throughout the movement and in

989
01:01:23,782 --> 01:01:30,232
Speaker 2: indigenous communities. But it's been a struggle. But I would

990
01:01:30,252 --> 01:01:35,632
Speaker 2: say that we're also navigating well. Indian Collective is standing

991
01:01:35,672 --> 01:01:38,651
Speaker 2: real strong. If you think about this, in the midst

992
01:01:38,692 --> 01:01:41,972
Speaker 2: of all of that happening, in the midst of all

993
01:01:41,992 --> 01:01:45,712
Speaker 2: of the different struggles happening, we freed Leonard Peltier. We

994
01:01:45,732 --> 01:01:49,492
Speaker 2: got a Monroe withdrawal in the Black Hills. We won

995
01:01:49,532 --> 01:01:53,782
Speaker 2: the Grand Gateway civil rights litigation. We got my charges dropped.

996
01:01:54,552 --> 01:01:57,782
Speaker 2: You know, the land back movement is robust and growing.

997
01:01:58,282 --> 01:02:01,642
Speaker 2: And so at the same time that I want to

998
01:02:01,662 --> 01:02:06,342
Speaker 2: highlight the negative attacks on us, we have been navigating

999
01:02:06,382 --> 01:02:10,272
Speaker 2: and maneuvering them. There is no throwing the towel. Like

1000
01:02:10,312 --> 01:02:14,072
Speaker 2: if we want to achieve environmental justice, climate justice, social justice,

1001
01:02:14,132 --> 01:02:16,852
Speaker 2: we have to put our stake in the ground and fight. Right.

1002
01:02:17,582 --> 01:02:19,402
Speaker 2: And we got to be strategic and we got to

1003
01:02:19,442 --> 01:02:22,162
Speaker 2: do it maybe differently than we did before. And we

1004
01:02:22,202 --> 01:02:25,582
Speaker 2: got to understand that we're in it together. From a

1005
01:02:25,602 --> 01:02:32,002
Speaker 2: global standpoint, I think land and water defenders and land

1006
01:02:32,042 --> 01:02:36,102
Speaker 2: and water protectors are being murdered around the world. They're

1007
01:02:36,122 --> 01:02:42,292
Speaker 2: being murdered and they're being incarcerated because of corporations backed

1008
01:02:42,332 --> 01:02:47,192
Speaker 2: by governments allowing it to be. And The reality is

1009
01:02:47,232 --> 01:02:51,292
Speaker 2: because capitalism is driving that. Capitalism is driving those decisions.

1010
01:02:51,912 --> 01:02:54,692
Speaker 2: So when a water protector or a land defender stands

1011
01:02:54,852 --> 01:02:58,872
Speaker 2: up in the face of these things, they're standing up

1012
01:02:58,912 --> 01:03:05,671
Speaker 2: against multinational corporations backed by settler colonial governments that are

1013
01:03:05,892 --> 01:03:12,112
Speaker 2: willing to bend their laws for corporate interests over somebody

1014
01:03:12,362 --> 01:03:16,252
Speaker 2: who deserves human rights, who has inherent human rights, often

1015
01:03:16,292 --> 01:03:19,272
Speaker 2: people who have treaty rights, and they're willing to erode

1016
01:03:19,312 --> 01:03:22,941
Speaker 2: those things because they also want to discourage other people

1017
01:03:22,962 --> 01:03:26,462
Speaker 2: from doing so because it affects their bottom line. It

1018
01:03:26,502 --> 01:03:29,062
Speaker 2: shows everywhere that when you rise up and you protest

1019
01:03:29,102 --> 01:03:32,302
Speaker 2: against these, you can cost them millions and billions of dollars.

1020
01:03:32,962 --> 01:03:34,962
Speaker 2: They're trying to say that the act of doing that

1021
01:03:35,222 --> 01:03:39,762
Speaker 2: is terrorism. Meanwhile, these corporations and the governments that support them,

1022
01:03:39,842 --> 01:03:44,022
Speaker 2: they're the terrorists. They're the ones that are eroding people's

1023
01:03:44,062 --> 01:03:51,151
Speaker 2: human rights and sovereignty. in the pursuit of what? Environmental destruction,

1024
01:03:51,352 --> 01:03:56,532
Speaker 2: contributing to climate change, because a weakening democracy actually does

1025
01:03:59,052 --> 01:04:03,662
Speaker 2: benefit the one percenters. It benefits the corporations. It benefits

1026
01:04:03,702 --> 01:04:07,102
Speaker 2: the super rich. And so this is very much a

1027
01:04:07,142 --> 01:04:12,872
Speaker 2: class war. We see it as a spiritual war. We

1028
01:04:12,892 --> 01:04:14,792
Speaker 2: see it as a war for Mother Earth, but it

1029
01:04:14,872 --> 01:04:18,052
Speaker 2: is very much a class war. They don't care about

1030
01:04:18,792 --> 01:04:22,152
Speaker 2: even the constituents who vote for them, and they somehow

1031
01:04:22,272 --> 01:04:26,772
Speaker 2: get constituents to vote against their own interest and to

1032
01:04:26,852 --> 01:04:31,412
Speaker 2: support narratives against their own interest. And so these are

1033
01:04:31,432 --> 01:04:33,812
Speaker 2: the times that we're in. This is what we find

1034
01:04:33,852 --> 01:04:37,112
Speaker 2: ourselves in, and it's dangerous. People will give their lives

1035
01:04:37,152 --> 01:04:39,572
Speaker 2: to stand up for their children and for their rights,

1036
01:04:39,592 --> 01:04:41,932
Speaker 2: but And people will do that in every country in

1037
01:04:41,952 --> 01:04:46,682
Speaker 2: the world. Because that's what has taken Indigenous people and

1038
01:04:46,742 --> 01:04:51,122
Speaker 2: water protectors and land defenders. That's what it has taken

1039
01:04:51,182 --> 01:04:54,582
Speaker 2: for our survival. Our survival is bound up in this struggle.

1040
01:04:55,182 --> 01:04:59,882
Speaker 2: We understand what we're fighting for. And we're fighting for

1041
01:04:59,942 --> 01:05:05,312
Speaker 2: clean water, clean air, basic human rights, inherent rights. Something

1042
01:05:05,332 --> 01:05:08,932
Speaker 2: that is good for all human beings and Mother Earth.

1043
01:05:09,852 --> 01:05:11,612
Speaker 2: And that's why that's not something that we're going to

1044
01:05:11,632 --> 01:05:14,092
Speaker 2: back down from. And I think the corporations have to

1045
01:05:14,132 --> 01:05:17,392
Speaker 2: realize this. And they have to realize that they're not

1046
01:05:17,432 --> 01:05:22,022
Speaker 2: going to win these battles. But there will be sacrifices.

1047
01:05:23,222 --> 01:05:27,042
Speaker 2: People have lost their lives and will continue to lose

1048
01:05:27,082 --> 01:05:30,982
Speaker 2: their lives. And that is not a reason for people

1049
01:05:31,042 --> 01:05:33,182
Speaker 2: to retreat. It's a reason for people to stand up.

1050
01:05:34,162 --> 01:05:36,382
Speaker 7: Well, Nick, again, thank you so much for your time

1051
01:05:36,422 --> 01:05:38,282
Speaker 7: and for the extra time that you gave. I really

1052
01:05:38,302 --> 01:05:38,822
Speaker 7: appreciate it.

1053
01:05:39,652 --> 01:05:40,672
Speaker 2: No problem. Thanks.

1054
01:05:45,682 --> 01:05:49,222
Speaker 3: The Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast.

1055
01:05:49,302 --> 01:05:51,382
Speaker 3: It comes out every Friday when we're not in the

1056
01:05:51,442 --> 01:05:55,162
Speaker 3: middle of a narrative season. If you have ideas for

1057
01:05:55,262 --> 01:05:58,002
Speaker 3: folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let

1058
01:05:58,072 --> 01:06:01,532
Speaker 3: us know. We're at Drilled Media on all social media platforms,

1059
01:06:01,932 --> 01:06:05,972
Speaker 3: or you can email me at amy at drilled.media. Links

1060
01:06:06,012 --> 01:06:08,772
Speaker 3: to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order my

1061
01:06:08,812 --> 01:06:12,582
Speaker 3: book are in the show notes. The Spill is produced

1062
01:06:12,722 --> 01:06:16,692
Speaker 3: by Peter Duff and edited by Aline Brown. Our theme

1063
01:06:16,732 --> 01:06:20,472
Speaker 3: song is Bird in the Hand by Fourknown. Artwork by

1064
01:06:20,572 --> 01:06:24,832
Speaker 3: Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. of

1065
01:06:24,852 --> 01:06:28,372
Speaker 3: the First Amendment Project. You can find transcripts of The

1066
01:06:28,432 --> 01:06:33,162
Speaker 3: Spill online at drilled.media. Like the rest of Drilled, The

1067
01:06:33,242 --> 01:06:38,062
Speaker 3: Spill is distributed by Pushkin Industries. The team there is

1068
01:06:38,242 --> 01:06:43,372
Speaker 3: Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey,

1069
01:06:43,752 --> 01:06:47,172
Speaker 3: Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, and Jake Flanagan.

1070
01:06:49,912 --> 01:06:50,152
Speaker 2: Thank you.