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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am I'm hanging in there. Maybe better than hanging

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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 1: Hey, that's an improvement. I feel like we pretty much

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Speaker 1: stick with hanging in there, So that's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to ask you questions. So this case

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Speaker 1: that we're getting ready to talk about, the case appears

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Speaker 1: in a book written by the most prolific I think

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Speaker 1: author certainly true crime author of all time and rule

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Speaker 1: oh I know, and who wrote a book called Most

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Speaker 1: Dangerous Killers. And this case pops up in that book.

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Speaker 1: So number one, have you read any and Rule? Is

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Speaker 1: one of my big questions.

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Speaker 2: I think the one and Rule book I've read, I

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Speaker 2: believe it was called Stranger Beside Me, who was about

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Speaker 2: her relationship with Ted Bundy. Yeah, but I am familiar

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Speaker 2: with Anne Rule, you know, to a point. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think I haven't extensively read her.

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Speaker 1: I actually haven't either, and I should just because she's

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Speaker 1: such an icon. So, you know, this case appears in

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Speaker 1: the book, and it got me wondering, do you ever

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Speaker 1: read any of the books about the cases that you've covered?

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Speaker 1: Like paul I kid you not. I can't even keep

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Speaker 1: track of how many Golden State Killer, both before and

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Speaker 1: after Joseph DiAngelo books there are. Did you even read

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Speaker 1: I'll Be Gone in the Dark.

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Speaker 2: No, But that's that's more complicated because of my close

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Speaker 2: relationship with Michelle, you know, I just have not been

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Speaker 2: able to bring myself to read it just because it

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Speaker 2: would bring up, you know, memories. But when it comes

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Speaker 2: to true crime, I used to voraciously read true crime

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Speaker 2: early on in my career, and I considered it part

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Speaker 2: of my studies. And then as I got more and

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Speaker 2: more invested, in my own cases. You know, I just

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Speaker 2: couldn't continue to consume other cases. I had to focus in.

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Speaker 2: And then when you think about something like Golden State Killer,

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Speaker 2: when I really focused in on that case, that case,

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Speaker 2: with all the cases associated with that series, we had

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Speaker 2: over fifteen thousand pages of case file. Imagine reading a

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Speaker 2: novel that's fifteen thousand pages long and any detail within

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Speaker 2: those pages or something that could turn the case. So

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Speaker 2: I couldn't be distracted by other people's stories, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that makes sense. And you know, you

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Speaker 1: and I had been talking a while back about Zodiac

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Speaker 1: and how you had worked to the Zodiac case, and

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Speaker 1: we will get into that at another time, but how

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Speaker 1: you had worked the Zodiac case and had actually read

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Speaker 1: Robert Graysmith's book, who was the journalist who well, I

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Speaker 1: would say cartoonists who arguably worked the case also, so

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Speaker 1: you are reading those kinds of books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was during that era, early on in my career.

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Speaker 2: And of course, you know, being in the Bay Area

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Speaker 2: was very familiar as Zodiac before you even started working

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Speaker 2: the case. In fact, on my commute sometimes I would

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Speaker 2: have to take a side road which was Lake Herman Road,

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Speaker 2: and that was where his first attack occurred, you know.

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Speaker 2: And then subsequently I got involved with the case. I

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Speaker 2: did go to every crime scene of his and then

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Speaker 2: actually did a TV show way back when like twenty

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Speaker 2: ten called Mystery Quest or myself one of these online

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Speaker 2: sleuts who I had never met prior to this, went

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Speaker 2: to each of the crime scenes and at all but

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Speaker 2: the presidio shooting, we had original investigators from the agencies

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Speaker 2: show up and you know, walk us through, and that

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Speaker 2: was there's a show that I'm in with the Zodiac.

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Speaker 1: Wow. And so you read that book. Did you come

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Speaker 1: away with any insights from that book that you had

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Speaker 1: not known digging into your own files and getting all

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Speaker 1: of the information that you had gathered in the mid nineties.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the book itself I read before I

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Speaker 2: really did any work on the Zodiac case. And so

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Speaker 2: a lot of my original information on Zodiac came from

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Speaker 2: Gray Smith's books. As I got involved with the case

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Speaker 2: and met with several of the agencies, as well as

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Speaker 2: found files within my crime lab because there had been

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Speaker 2: evidence submitted from Zodiac back in the seventies to my lab,

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Speaker 2: so I had access to forensics reports and stuff. You know.

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Speaker 2: I started to get you know, official information about Zodiac

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Speaker 2: and you know, and that's where when you look at

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Speaker 2: a true crime book, you always have to understand sort

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Speaker 2: of maybe the journalistic integrity of the person that's writing

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Speaker 2: the book and they what materials are relying on, you know,

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Speaker 2: to have you know, is it factual? Is there a

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Speaker 2: lot of supposition? You know? And then also you like

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Speaker 2: with with Gracemith's book, it's also well who is he

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Speaker 2: and evaluating his investigative abilities. You know, he may have

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Speaker 2: had a decent aptitude, but what was his experience, you know,

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Speaker 2: and taking a look at things and evaluating circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 2: Had he worked other cases, had he run across similar

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Speaker 2: types of suspects, because he does, you know, focus in

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Speaker 2: on a particular suspect in his books. And that's where

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Speaker 2: somebody like myself, as I'm reading and rereading his material,

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Speaker 2: I end up recognizing, Okay, he doesn't necessarily have full

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Speaker 2: comprehension of how to build a case that is based

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Speaker 2: on factual information and having a nexus to the actual

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Speaker 2: crimes themselves. And that I see this a lot with

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Speaker 2: some of the online sluice.

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Speaker 1: So you are too busy now to read books, not

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Speaker 1: even my books. You can't even take the time to read.

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Speaker 1: Is that what's happening? You can't even read my books?

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Speaker 2: Look, you're giving me a guilt trip.

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Speaker 1: What about the audiobook, Paul? You know I do read

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Speaker 1: my own audiobooks, So that's any incentive.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I have not I haven't read.

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Speaker 1: I haven't read as if you don't listen to me enough. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I understand taking a break. Well, this is a case,

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Speaker 1: as I said, from Anne Rule, and so we do

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Speaker 1: quote her book, which is really insightful I think in

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Speaker 1: some parts. So let's jump in. This is a very

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Speaker 1: very contemporary case, mid nineteen seventies, I mean, okay, twentieth century.

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Speaker 1: Here we go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is this is you know, the decade

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Speaker 2: that I probably did the most work in.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well this will be interesting. So we're in Washington State,

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Speaker 1: and let's set the scene. So let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: couple who will be our focus. It's a couple named

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Speaker 1: Ruth and Tony Fernandez. And let's talk about how they met.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not going to talk about who the victim

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Speaker 1: is if there is a victim in this case. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I want to set the intention that we're going to

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Speaker 1: get to know them as a couple and know what

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Speaker 1: their background is like, and then kind of moving forward,

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Speaker 1: we can put some pieces together. So they met in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one. She was forty two Ruth and she

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Speaker 1: was Ruth log not Ruth Nan does just yet. She

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Speaker 1: was widowed after the death of her husband in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six, so she had been single for about five years.

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Speaker 1: She had two adult children and she wanted to downsize

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Speaker 1: because they were out of the house. She was in Auburn, Washington.

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Speaker 1: She put her house up for sale, and in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy one, this man who was good looking and very charming,

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Speaker 1: pulls up in a Cadillac, knocks on the door. He says,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm interested in buying your house. She said, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a tour. He introduces himself as doctor

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Speaker 1: Anthony Fernandez, but he says you can call me Tony.

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Speaker 1: He's forty eight, so just about six years older than

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Speaker 1: she is. He is divorced, and he has a counseling

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Speaker 1: clinic nearby. So he's a psychologist and he wants a

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Speaker 1: house because he needs to commute pretty easily back and

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Speaker 1: forth between his home and his work at this counseling center.

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Speaker 1: So Ruth is charmed immediately. He is good looking, he

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Speaker 1: seems very kind, and he says, let's go to dinner

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Speaker 1: and talk about the house, which is an interesting ruse,

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Speaker 1: and she says okay, and they have such a great time.

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Speaker 1: They start dating and she pulls the house off the

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Speaker 1: market and they check up. He moves in. This is

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Speaker 1: a very quick relationship. You know, she is taken by him.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I mean, there's nothing wrong with jumping

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Speaker 1: into relationships. I have done that myself and they have

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Speaker 1: ended fine. But they have ended. But when we are

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Speaker 1: talking about a true crime case, I think that alarm

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Speaker 1: bells should go off that you are jumping into a

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Speaker 1: relationship with someone that you might not know very well

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Speaker 1: and that could make either one of them vulnerable. Frankly, well, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I right off the bat, I'm kind of guessing

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Speaker 2: where this is potentially going in terms of one way

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Speaker 2: or the other. There are peers. You know, this very

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Speaker 2: short term or short dating relationship, and now you have

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Speaker 2: Tony moving in. You know, in some ways you start

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Speaker 2: thinking about my mind is going towards okay? Is he

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Speaker 2: is he sort of a con man? Is he finding

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Speaker 2: a vulnerable woman, you know, that appears to have some

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Speaker 2: financial assets, and you know, is he going around and

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Speaker 2: hitting open houses and meeting women and finding the one

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Speaker 2: that's going to be the you know, the one that

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Speaker 2: he can exploit. But no, I'll see how this develops.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like an interesting scheme, hitting open houses and

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Speaker 1: meeting women. Yeah, that would make sense. Well, we don't

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Speaker 1: know just yet, but when they get involved with each other.

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Speaker 1: He has all sorts of assets that he has talked

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Speaker 1: to her about. He has timber holdings, he's got this

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Speaker 1: counseling practice. He has a nice car. She is worth

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Speaker 1: several hundred thousand dollars, which, by the way, is a

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Speaker 1: couple of million today. I am in denial that money

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Speaker 1: from the year I was born seventy four would be

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Speaker 1: worth a couple of hundred thousand dollars, would be worth

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Speaker 1: almost two million dollars today. But that's what the world,

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Speaker 1: what web tells me. So she's worth quite a lot

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Speaker 1: of money, and you know, he is seemingly smitten with her.

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Speaker 1: They seem to have a good relationship. Her family does

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Speaker 1: not like Tony, not one little bit. They do some

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Speaker 1: surface level digging and they look in local newspaper archives.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is the seventies. They work really hard.

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Speaker 1: There's no internet, so they work really hard and start

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Speaker 1: digging in, and they see that he's been involved in

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Speaker 1: some fraud lawsuits and he was in prison for fraud.

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Speaker 1: And we could talk about a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: that in a little bit. I'm trying to build a

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Speaker 1: picture here of Tony. He seems successful right now, and

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Speaker 1: they seem to be in a pretty good relationship. Her

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Speaker 1: family goes to Ruth and says, listen, I don't know

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Speaker 1: this guy. You know, I know that he has this

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Speaker 1: counseling practice. I know he has this in that, but

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Speaker 1: he's had these lawsuits. And she says, bug off, I

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Speaker 1: already know. I don't care. It's fine, And Rule the

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Speaker 1: author says her impression was that Ruth was somebody who

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Speaker 1: believed in second chances, and she was not going to

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Speaker 1: not be with this man who was treating her very

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Speaker 1: well just because he had this sort of dubious past.

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Speaker 1: Just because he's been convicted of fraud doesn't mean he's violent.

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Speaker 1: And so I don't want you to jump to conclusions

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Speaker 1: just yet, but what do we think about the fraud charges?

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Speaker 1: And lawsuits and all of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, of course, you have to consider,

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Speaker 2: you know, what does this mean about who Tony really is?

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know this could be

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Speaker 2: something wherein you know, select occupations. You know, you can

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Speaker 2: have people accuse you of certain types of crimes or

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Speaker 2: civil actions, and now you're having to defend your name

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Speaker 2: and you're completely innocent. So at this point you know

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Speaker 2: the fraud aspect without knowing any more, I'm just going, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know he has had some legal stuff going on

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Speaker 2: in the past. I mean, I believe you brought up

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Speaker 2: that he had been in prison, and of course I'd

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Speaker 2: like to know what he was in prison for, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you'll tell me at some point.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and involves fraud, so at least it's not violent,

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Speaker 1: but it does put Tony in a pretty bad light. Here,

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Speaker 1: a couple of things start to happen that make her

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Speaker 1: family really nervous. First of all, of course, she marries

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Speaker 1: him very quickly, so they had only been together for

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Speaker 1: ten months. They get married in January of nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: and you know, this for them is sort of head

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Speaker 1: snapping too fast. Her estate had been in her will

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Speaker 1: left to her two daughters, Kathleen and Susan. She changes

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Speaker 1: the will and now everything goes to Tony. This is

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Speaker 1: not a big surprise, you know. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: that happens when people get married. But the young women

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Speaker 1: who are her daughters are incredibly alarmed by all sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, and I think they just think he's a

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Speaker 1: sleazy guy. But Ruth can't see it now. I was

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Speaker 1: actually just having a conversation with two of my closest

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Speaker 1: friends about this a couple of weeks ago. When you

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Speaker 1: have a friend who is involved with somebody, a man

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Speaker 1: or a woman who you just don't like, and they

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Speaker 1: break up and then you say, oh, that guy was

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Speaker 1: the worst or she was terrible to you, and then

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Speaker 1: they get back together and then they create this distance.

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Speaker 1: So I think that this is a fine line for

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Speaker 1: Kathleen and Susan, her daughters, who are trying not to,

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Speaker 1: you know, create this big problem between them and their mother.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, what do you

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Speaker 1: do if you're really scared that your mother is jumping

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Speaker 1: into a relationship that could potentially I don't think they

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Speaker 1: think this is going to end in death, but could

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Speaker 1: potentially ruin her financially. I don't know what the answer is,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if you do either, But what

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Speaker 1: do you do?

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Speaker 2: It's a tough situation because you think about this, this

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Speaker 2: phrase blinded by love. The family members they are possibly

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Speaker 2: seeing very clearly the type of man Tony is. But

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Speaker 2: Ruth is head over heels for Tony and she's liking

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Speaker 2: the way he's treating her and would be in denial

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Speaker 2: if any family members or friends come up to her

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Speaker 2: and say, hey, I've got some concerns, and she basically

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Speaker 2: would be in that well, bug off. You know. I

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Speaker 2: love him, you know, and you're misinterpreting who he is.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's difficult because right now, Tony hasn't

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Speaker 1: done anything wrong that we know of. You know, of course,

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Speaker 1: Ruth could be keeping secrets. They've been married for now,

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Speaker 1: let's say about a year or so, and we can

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Speaker 1: talk about Tony's background. We don't know a lot about

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Speaker 1: his childhood, but he was born in Washington State in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty one. He seems legitimate from early on. So

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Speaker 1: in the early nineteen fifties, when he is in his

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Speaker 1: mid to late twenties, he becomes active in Washington and

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Speaker 1: Oregon's timber industry. So remember I said he had timber holdings,

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Speaker 1: He had a lot of success. By the time he

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Speaker 1: was thirty one, he was running a company. He had

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Speaker 1: a big house with a bunch of cars. And at

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Speaker 1: this point Tony is married with four children, and he's

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Speaker 1: on his local city council, well respected in his community.

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Speaker 1: But before long, I think the outlook of the community

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Speaker 1: on Tony's image is starting to go down. Because by

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Speaker 1: the mid nineteen fifties, a thirteen year old girl accuses

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Speaker 1: Tony of what they called indecent liberties. Of course we

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Speaker 1: are going to say molestation here. He is eventually acquitted

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Speaker 1: of these alleged crimes by a judge. We don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of details about this, Paul, We just know

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Speaker 1: he was accused and not convicted, not you know anything.

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Speaker 1: But this is becoming more serious. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is the stuff that her family was able to

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Speaker 1: dig up, because it sounds like it was dismissed. But

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Speaker 1: now things are becoming a lot more I think in

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Speaker 1: focus regarding Tony and kind of his criminal activity and

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Speaker 1: is certainly his morals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd it'd be interesting to know exactly how the

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Speaker 2: accusation of these indecent liberties came to be. The parents

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Speaker 2: of the thirteen year old girl report this report Tony

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Speaker 2: to the police that the thirteen year old girl gives

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Speaker 2: some statements. The fact that it's dismissed. You think about

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Speaker 2: this era in nineteen fifties. You know, they were so

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Speaker 2: lenient when it came to you know, child molestation, crimes

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Speaker 2: against children, crimes against women during this time that if

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Speaker 2: they did not have, you know, some overwhelming case that

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Speaker 2: just appalled everybody, it likely is going to be either

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Speaker 2: reduced charges or dismissed. So it's hard to evaluate this dismissal.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean that he was falsely accused. I'm really

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Speaker 2: needing to know more of the details about how that

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Speaker 2: case progressed in order to say, oh, you know, he

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Speaker 2: had this Tony. He obviously had an issue in the

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Speaker 2: fifties with this kid, So I wish.

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Speaker 1: We had a little bit more information on that. Also,

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Speaker 1: I think that even the accusation itself seems to have

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Speaker 1: put him in a pretty bad light, and then it

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Speaker 1: gets worse in a different way. A couple of years later,

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Speaker 1: he is accused of logging in areas that he has

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Speaker 1: no authorization to be in. And then it sounds like

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Speaker 1: he has swindled buyers of land by offering to sell

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Speaker 1: logging sites that he doesn't actually own. So here comes

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Speaker 1: the fraud. He's accused of taking advantage of landowners also

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Speaker 1: by having them sign contracts that were blank. And according

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Speaker 1: to these folks, these accusers of his, the contracts would

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Speaker 1: be fraudulently filled in as if the landowners had agreed

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Speaker 1: to hand this over. Now, as an aside, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure why you would sign a blank contract, but it

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Speaker 1: sounds like this was something he was doing. So he

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Speaker 1: would rip off buyers and he would rip off sellers

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Speaker 1: at the same time. So this is where some of

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Speaker 1: the frog comes in. It just seems like Tony's character

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Speaker 1: has really been in question for now. It looks like

336
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Speaker 1: about twenty years or so.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know, with the accusation of the sexual assault

338
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Speaker 2: on the thirteen old, I'd say with there's smoke right,

339
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Speaker 2: most certainly there's smoke there. Now you have this fraud

340
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Speaker 2: and being able to get the individuals, the buyers and

341
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 2: sellers to sign blank contracts. That's interesting. That sounds like

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00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 2: Tony was able to get these individuals to trust him

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Speaker 2: and say, hey, I can make this happen. I'll fill

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Speaker 2: in the details later, right, And because of his personality,

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Speaker 2: he ingratiated himself enough to where these financial partners had

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Speaker 2: trust in him. He's also showing a level of greed

347
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Speaker 2: by committing this crime. And so now kind of extrapolating

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Speaker 2: up into Ruth, who's a wealthier single female who's was

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Speaker 2: trying to downsize from the house that she had. That

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Speaker 2: tells me that her house is probably larger, you know,

351
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Speaker 2: and he's recognizing that if he goes and sees this,

352
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Speaker 2: he's going, wow, you know, she has a really large house. Single.

353
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Speaker 2: You know, he's probably very adept at reading you know

354
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 2: the person and going likely has some larger bank accounts.

355
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Speaker 2: So I could see where now his personality, the charm

356
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 2: can come out because he's now pursuing a greed aspect

357
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Speaker 2: with Ruth. That's how I'm starting to extrapolate from his

358
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Speaker 2: criminal history.

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Speaker 1: He definitely is motivated by money, it sounds like. And

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Speaker 1: remember I said he had four kids, he had a

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Speaker 1: very large house, flashy cars. I was driving around with

362
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Speaker 1: one of my girls the other night, and you know,

363
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Speaker 1: we were seeing a driveway that was just full of

364
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Speaker 1: really expensive cars, and of course it's this massive house.

365
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Speaker 1: And one of my kids said, well, this is somebody

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Speaker 1: who obviously makes a lot of money, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, because you know, we, especially in our country,

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Speaker 1: we know people can completely overleverage every part of their lives.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that I talked to

370
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Speaker 1: my kids about a lot financial literacy. You know, don't

371
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Speaker 1: spend more than you have. And so that reminded me

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Speaker 1: of Tony as I was kind of reading up on

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Speaker 1: this last night. Your boy, appearances really do mask who

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Speaker 1: the person is, and this becomes a big problem for him.

375
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Speaker 1: He finally gets caught. There's a four year investigation in

376
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Speaker 1: this what Anne Rule calls a timber swindle, and he

377
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Speaker 1: is indicted in sixty two by a grand jury, federal

378
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Speaker 1: grand jury. He is convicted on seven counts of interstate

379
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Speaker 1: fraud and one count of conspiracy. He gets twelve years

380
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: in prison, but he's released on parole sometime around nineteen

381
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Speaker 1: seventy and then one year later, he shows up at

382
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Speaker 1: this lovely woman's house with a for sales sign in

383
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Speaker 1: the front yard and knocks on the door, but in

384
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: the meantime, his wife dumped him and divorced him. This

385
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: is kind of where we are. Ruth has met this man,

386
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Speaker 1: and she says she knows all about his history.

387
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Speaker 2: At least she thinks she knows all about his history.

388
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Speaker 2: He's maybe telling her something that is men what he

389
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: was truly doing. You know, we see this a lot

390
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: with registered sex offenders. You know, they go out and

391
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: they want to get into relationships again, and of course

392
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: it's public knowledge that they're sex offenders, and so their

393
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: new partner, potential partner could easily find out. And oftentimes

394
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Speaker 2: these guys who were convicted of you know, horrific rapes

395
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: are even worse. They say, oh, you know, I was

396
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Speaker 2: nineteen years old and I just got caught having sex

397
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Speaker 2: with an underaged minor type of thing. You know, so

398
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: they tried to try to minimize it to explain what

399
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: their love interest if you want to call it, that

400
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: potentially could find out down the road. So I would

401
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: imagine Tony is going to Ruth knowing that there's maybe

402
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: some public records or if anybody really digs into him,

403
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: that they will find out that he has this conviction

404
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: in this prison sentence, and so he's maybe saying, oh, well, yeah,

405
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: I had this, but you know, really it wasn't that

406
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: big of a deal.

407
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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure this accusation from the thirteen

408
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: year old from his past that was dismissed by a judge.

409
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 1: It's not in the newspapers, so this can't be something

410
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that her kids dug up. Otherwise, I cannot

411
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Speaker 1: see from what I know about Ruth, that doesn't seem

412
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Speaker 1: like something that she would, you know, stay with a

413
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Speaker 1: man knowing that there was even this accusation. I could

414
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: be wrong. It sounds like what they dug up was

415
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: the conviction, you know, the federal charges. The conviction and

416
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Speaker 1: that he was sentenced to twelve years is what they

417
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: brought to him. And who knows you're right, who knows

418
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Speaker 1: what he said to them?

419
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Speaker 2: Well, in the nineteen seventies, you think about actually going

420
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Speaker 2: back to the indecent liberties with a thirteen year old.

421
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Speaker 2: You know, that probably didn't make a local newspaper. But

422
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Speaker 2: if it did, which local newspaper did it make? Right?

423
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Speaker 2: You know, they would have to go from library to

424
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Speaker 2: library and to see if they could find something. And

425
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: so it was so different back then than what we

426
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: have today by you know, on the keyboard and the

427
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 2: online searching capabilities. You know, when you say that he

428
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: was convicted of like seven I think you said seven

429
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: interstate fraud charges.

430
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: Seven counts of interstate fraud and one count of conspiracy.

431
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Speaker 1: I don't know the difference.

432
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Speaker 2: Well, the conspiracy indicates that he is he's got another

433
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: maybe another partner in this that may have been brought

434
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: up in some charges. But what's catching my attention is

435
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: the fact that these were interstate fraud and so I'm

436
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 2: wondering if there was an FBI investigation and there you

437
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: could have potentially when he's convicted out of the timber industry,

438
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: maybe there are some headlines he had oh that weren't

439
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: necessarily just in a local newspaper, but maybe in a

440
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: more broadly distributed type of newspaper where it'd be much

441
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: easier for the family to find this out.

442
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: Now, it would be easy now to pull up the complaints,

443
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: that charges, trial transcripts, any of that kind of saif

444
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: there's a plea deal, I guess it would not be

445
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: that difficult. Now, what would you do in the seventies

446
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: if you're just a citizen alone person and you find

447
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: out that this guy who's dating your mother went to

448
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: prison for six years and was released. Where would you

449
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: go to get a transcript of whatever happened in the seventies.

450
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: You'd have to go to the courts. If it made

451
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 2: the newspapers and you knew roughly where this crime occurred

452
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: and where the media had attention on this crime, then yeah,

453
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: you could go and maybe do newspaper searches from around

454
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: the date range that you think it possibly would have occurred.

455
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: But once you get the information as to you know,

456
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: what court he was tried in, now you can go

457
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 2: to that court and request the public records out of

458
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: that court, which could include the transcripts from the you know,

459
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: the court reporter taking material down, the various emotions. You know,

460
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 2: everything is kind of kept by the courts and their

461
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: public records, and to this day that's how you still

462
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: will do things. You can only get so much detail online.

463
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: You can go to let's say superior court website and

464
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: find out a docket number, you know, when the case occurred,

465
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: how it was disposed of, But to actually get the details,

466
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: that's where you'd go to the courts and request the records.

467
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that her daughters the rest of her

468
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: family thought these articles would be enough. Hey, mom, look

469
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: at this guy's background. Did you know that he had

470
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: just been released from prison a year before for ripping

471
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: people off? And it sounds like she did know, or

472
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: at least she played it off like she did know

473
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: to not sort of, you know, embarrass him or embarrass her.

474
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: Let's talk about his credentials, because I said that he

475
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: opened up this counseling clinic that was not far from

476
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: Ruth's house. So when he was incarcerated, before he knew Ruth,

477
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: he did get an associate's degree through a to come

478
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: to Washington Community College, and according to the Longview Daily News,

479
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: he continued working on the degree once he was paroled.

480
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: We don't know a lot about his educational history, but

481
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: most of the sources agree that he was pursuing a

482
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: degree in psychology. Somebody said that he studied law, maybe ecology,

483
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: but psychology seemed to be what everybody agreed on. He

484
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: had attended the Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma for a

485
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: little while, and he enrolled at a college in Florida

486
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: and he received like this honorary doctorate, which it doesn't

487
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: sound like meant very much. He went to Washington State

488
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: where he studied acupuncture and then opened up this clinic

489
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: as doctor Anthony Fernandez, and then he meets Ruth. So

490
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: I mean, he is definitely not a doctor, but he

491
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: seems like knowledgeable enough and bright enough to be able

492
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: to pull off this counseling clinic. I don't know how

493
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: popular it was, and I don't know how long he

494
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: kept it open after he and Ruth were married. But

495
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: he does start to sound like a serial fraudster for sure,

496
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: in a lot of different aspects of his life.

497
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, he sounds like a con man, right. What was

498
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: that that movie with Tom Hanks and he was law

499
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 2: enforcement chasing Leonardo DiCaprio's.

500
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: Character catch me if you can catch.

501
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: Me, If you can? You know where that that type

502
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: of criminal has the aptitude and the skill set to

503
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: be able to, you know, pose as a certain type

504
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: of person. And that's what conmn's do. They have the

505
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: personality and maybe the aptitude, Like if you want to

506
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: pose as a psychologist, you have at least some knowledge

507
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: base to convince people, Oh he knows what he's talking about,

508
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: but maybe another well educated psychologist, you know, asking deeper

509
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: questions would go, oh, no, he is not a licensed psychologist.

510
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: Yep. That's that's why when you're a con man, you

511
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: have to be really careful who you talk to at

512
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: dinner parties. Make sure that this is not somebody who

513
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: knows anything that's right. Let's get back to Tony and

514
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: Ruth and see if Ruth at any point catches on

515
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: to this guy. They met in seventy one, they married

516
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: in seventy two. We are now two years into their

517
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: marriage in nineteen seventy four, spring of nineteen seventy four.

518
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: At this point, Ruth is saying things are not going well.

519
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: She tells a close friend of hers named Irene Rise

520
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: that her marriage is in shambles, and she decides she

521
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: needs some space from Tony, which sounds like a great idea.

522
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: She takes a month long trip to Texas, where one

523
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: of her kids lives, where Kathleen lives, and Tony of

524
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: course doesn't go. When she's on this trip with Kathleen

525
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: with her daughter, Kathleen says that Ruth told her they

526
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: weren't getting along, that he wouldn't come home at night,

527
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: and that he either had another woman or an alcohol problem,

528
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: and as an aside, I would suspect, probably both, but

529
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: who knows. Kathleen said that her mother was going to

530
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: talk to an attorney about divorce. She said that her

531
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: life has been difficult. You know. Of course she had

532
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: lost her first husband, so it sounded like she really

533
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: loved him, and now she's married to this loser of

534
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: a guy who wasn't coming home at night, and that

535
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: she couldn't do this anymore, She could not continue to

536
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: live under this constant pressure, financial pressure. And you know,

537
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: I know we're going to talk about this. Talk of

538
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: a divorce can be an inciting incident for a lot

539
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: of murders. And it sounds like she was making a decision.

540
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: And I'm sure this was not going to be a

541
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: surprise to Tony.

542
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: No, Well, Tony's fully aware of what the state of

543
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: the relationship is too. You know, it is going to

544
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: be coming down to, well, what is his true feelings

545
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: for Ruth? And was this just this marriage just a

546
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: sham so he could have access to her financial assets.

547
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: And when she starts to threaten to take his access

548
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: to those financial assets away, that's when things could probably

549
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: get kind of ugly in this relationship.

550
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 1: And I wonder in this seventies what divorce would have

551
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: been like, Like would she have been able to walk

552
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: away with half of what she had, which would have

553
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: been a substantial estate without him having any of it?

554
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: Or would there have been some sort of spousal support

555
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: on his part. I don't know enough about what would

556
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: have happened in the seventies, but I just wonder that

557
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: must have played into it somehow. Also, he knew he

558
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: probably wasn't going to get anything if they did divorce.

559
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I think it's state by state,

560
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of you once you get married,

561
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: each individual's assets become community property, and so upon divorce,

562
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: is it, you know, split evenly unless there's a prenuptial agreement,

563
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, And was there a prenupt in this particular case,

564
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: because Ruth does have some financial assets that maybe she

565
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: wanted to protect ahead of time. So that's all part

566
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: of evaluating. Okay, what is Tony going to lose out

567
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: on when Ruth goes I want a divorce?

568
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: Well, Tony's determined to not lose out on anything, because

569
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: while Ruth is in Texas with her daughter Kathleen, he

570
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: is calling and strong arming Ruth into giving him power

571
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: of attorney over her affairs. And now Paul's leaning forward

572
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: and wanting to say something, and I will say one

573
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: more sentence before you talk about power of attorney, which

574
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: is another inciting incident. Ruth doesn't want to do it,

575
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: but eventually, inexplicably, she says, okay, So there you go.

576
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: He gets power of attorney.

577
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: He's obviously making a play in order to be able

578
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: to scramble and get assets kind of being directed towards

579
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: him in the event of this potential sounds like likely divorce.

580
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: This is where it almost sounds like, you know, Tony

581
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: is reasonably sophisticated when it comes to business transactions. You know,

582
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: he's running a timber company, he's committing fraud. Sounds like

583
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: he's able to dupe some other sophisticated business associates for

584
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: the fraud cases. And I think he's taken advantage maybe

585
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: of Ruth's naivity when it comes to this aspect. Ruth

586
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: is probably recognizing, Oh, if I give him power of attorney,

587
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: he can do X, Y and Z. But what's the likelihood, right,

588
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: not necessarily recognizing you know, he's sort of a wolf

589
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: in sheep's clothing on this front, and he knows exactly

590
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: what he's doing, you know, So he's just saying, hey,

591
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: I want power of attorney. Who knows what those conversations

592
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: were like, whether she felt like she's intimidated, But I

593
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: bet he fully understood what he could do once he

594
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: got power of attorney, and she probably didn't have the

595
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: same level of understanding. That's my guess in this relationship.

596
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: I think you're spot on because he immediately starts selling

597
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: off some of her land using power of attorney capabilities.

598
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Ruth does not know that he's doing this, and he

599
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: is selling the land far under price than what it's worth.

600
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: So he is gathering resources right now before she comes back,

601
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: and she's only gone for a month.

602
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he's purposefully undercutting the going rate because he

603
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: wants to move it quickly.

604
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: So she goes back to Washington State from Texas. I'm

605
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: sure Kathleen does not want her to do that. I

606
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: know everybody is fearful at this point, but I'm not

607
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: sure anyone is thinking this is going to have a

608
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: violent outcome. I think they're just thinking this guy is leazy.

609
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: Maybe she can divorce him, and maybe she gave him

610
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: power of attorney just to get out of this, just

611
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: knowing that maybe this would shut him up long enough

612
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: for her to file for divorce. But boy, it's pretty risky,

613
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: and especially considering the estate she has, which I will

614
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: tell you, Paul by this time is about four hundred

615
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: to five hundred thousand dollars in nineteen seventy four, so

616
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: we're talking I think about four to five million dollars.

617
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: Lots and lots of money is her estate at this point.

618
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: Sure she could come back from this trip to Texas

619
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: and be so completely pissed off at what he's doing

620
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: that she has motive to off him, you know. So

621
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting to see how this develops.

622
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: Well, here we go. So she returns to Washington state.

623
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: He is there, and he does something that is charming

624
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: or convincing because she agrees to go on a week

625
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: long camping trip with him.

626
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: Oh I know, and.

627
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: I hate to phrase it like, I don't know what

628
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: she was thinking, but that's what I say in my head.

629
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: What what happened? He must have really turned on the

630
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: charm because she agreed to be in an RV a

631
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: Winnebago with this man to go to a campsite in

632
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: near North Bend, Washington and she owns land there, and

633
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: she says, let's go. She and her now deceased husband

634
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: Less used to do that all the time. She drove

635
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: RVs all the time. She love camping, She loved doing this.

636
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't know why she would go with Tony, but

637
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: something switched and she said, okay, she did not go

638
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: against her will.

639
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: Well, you know, first, it tells me she's not feeling

640
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: any type of threat to her person, you know, her safety.

641
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: She is unhappy in the relationship, but Tony hasn't demonstrated

642
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: maybe a level of violence that she's thinking, I cannot

643
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: be alone with him. I'm assuming he's taking advantage of

644
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: her love to do this type of activity to isolate her.

645
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: I'm sure there probably aren't other people going on the

646
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 2: same camping trip. It's just him and her, and he's

647
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 2: now done. What we see killers do is they need

648
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 2: to isolate the victims, and then that's when bad things happen.

649
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: I think you're probably right. I think that he took

650
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that she was feeling vulnerable, and

651
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: it could be that she felt like she was looking

652
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: for any kind of sincerity or affection authenticity from him,

653
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 1: and he probably turned on the charm and said let's

654
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: go do this. She didn't feel threatened. They packed up.

655
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: They have a little suv. I think they called it

656
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: a scout and other sources called it a jeep. They

657
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: bring that along with them, I'm assuming so they can

658
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: go do you know, some off road stuff, or go

659
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: take adventures without the RV. They stop at a restaurant

660
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: called the Mount Sie Golf Course, and we have information

661
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: sort of from witnesses. People are trying to piece together

662
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: before what happens happens, what their interactions were like beforehand,

663
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: because that hopefully will tell us a little bit. They

664
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: have lunch and they have some cocktails there and rule

665
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 1: the author reports that they had been in the restaurant

666
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: for a long time, and according to witnesses, they had

667
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: had several drinks. Ruth was known to have several drinks,

668
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: not over indulged, but she was definitely no teetoller, and

669
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: she had a few drinks, and some of the witnesses

670
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: said that seemed like they might have been a little

671
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: bit tipsy. Definitely not drunk, not attracting tons of attention,

672
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: but they seem to be getting along. So this was

673
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: about lunchtime and then more witnesses around four fifteen, so

674
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: several hours later see them when they stop at an

675
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: office for a local timber company on a business errand

676
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: because he's got some timberland. Ann Rule says that the

677
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: employees there were called, that Ruth seemed to be very unhappy,

678
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: but Tony was very quiet. Neither of them seemed drunk

679
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: or tipsy at this point, and then they head to

680
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: the campsite. So that is sort of the way things went.

681
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 1: And nobody was fighting there, weren't you know, the police

682
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: weren't called. They didn't seem to be overly thrilled with

683
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: each other, but it seemed to be a rather peaceful

684
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: trip going toward this campsite.

685
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: So in the restaurant where they are in a public location,

686
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 2: people are able to observe them, and it sounds like

687
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: Ruth and Tony are interacting fine as what you would

688
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: expect a couple that's not fighting, you know, they're just

689
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: kind of engaging in conversation, having a few drinks together.

690
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: It's interesting that when Tony goes to this what was

691
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: it was a timber.

692
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 1: Business, Yes, it was a timber business.

693
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 2: And their demeanor sounds like from the witnesses is a

694
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: little bit more reserved. She sounds a little more sullen.

695
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering that after they left the restaurant, they

696
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: have a few drinks in them. Now they're in an RV,

697
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: they're in private, and I wonder if there was maybe

698
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: some more negative conversation, you know, that transpired. You know,

699
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: it's kind of speculating, but it seems like that could

700
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: have occurred.

701
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever their interactions were at both the restaurant and

702
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: this timber office, nobody was alarmed by any of it.

703
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: They get back into the RV and they head up

704
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: to the camp site. So this is like a mountain

705
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: pass they have to go up, and then it puts

706
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: them on the a logging road and then everything goes

707
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: silent for a while until eight thirty. So the last

708
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: people to see Ruth were four to fifteen at this

709
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: timber company, four fifteen pm at eight thirty that same night.

710
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: So four hours later, Tony calls the restaurant where they

711
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: had been, Mount Sai restaurant where he had had lunch,

712
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, eight hours earlier, and he says Ruth had

713
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: gone to the campsite with him. They were hanging out.

714
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: She turned to him and said, I'm going to go

715
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: on a walk, and she's gone, And he says, has

716
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: anybody seen her? And I don't know why he would

717
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: think the restaurant would mean it sounds like they're kind

718
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: of quite a bit aways from the restaurant. Yeah, but

719
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't, you know, I actually don't know how far

720
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: away they are. But it doesn't seem like she would

721
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: walk to a restaurant at eight thirty at night, even

722
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: if it's July and it would be lighter, because at summertime.

723
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: It just seems kind of like an odd thing. But

724
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: he is establishing that his wife is gone from the campsite.

725
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: Were they able to drive the RV all the way

726
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 2: up to this campsite or did they have to park

727
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: the RV like at the restaurant and then take this

728
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: scout or jeep on the logging road to get to

729
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: the campsite? You know anything about that?

730
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that they took the RV okay,

731
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: And you're gonna find out shortly why.

732
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: Well, that just kind of informs me as to, you know,

733
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: how accessible the camp site is and basically, if an

734
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: RV is getting back there, this campsite is accessible to

735
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: just about any type of vehicle.

736
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: Well, and it's a logging road that they eventually have

737
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: to go down to get to the campsite. So it's

738
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: a mountain pass that hooks them up to a logging road.

739
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: So that's big vehicles, I would assume, right, Yeah, though.

740
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: You know, these these logging roads can be a little

741
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: bit tougher for your average vehicle, and especially if they

742
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: have you know, rougher terrain. You know, an RV could

743
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: struggle because if they're towing the scout or jeep behind

744
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: the RV, you know, that's and you see that kind

745
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: of setup. That's so you know, the people can go

746
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: to other locations that the RV typically isn't going to

747
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: be able to get to, or they just want to

748
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 2: you know, kind of drop anchor with the RV at

749
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: a location and then use the smaller vehicle to go

750
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: and tour around and hit town or whatever else. And

751
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: so this is where I'm just trying to make sure

752
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: how remote this camp site is. But it sounds like

753
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 2: this is a campsite that pretty much anybody could get

754
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: to if they wanted to. Any type of vehicle can

755
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: get to it. And if Ruth is out there walking

756
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: by herself. It increases the likelihood that there's potential witnesses

757
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: who are driving by. When I go out in my

758
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: jeep with some of the side roads, there's nobody out

759
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: there except maybe other people with a well built off

760
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: road rig, right, So you have a smaller potential pool

761
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: of witnesses because it's not that heavily traveled in that scenario.

762
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like when she went for a walk.

763
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: He unhooked the jeep and we're just gonna call it

764
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: a jeep. It's sort of inconsistent, but some suv. He

765
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 1: unhooked the jeep and went down to the nearest place

766
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: to make phone calls. He called Mount Sai restaurant. They said, no,

767
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: we haven't seen her. He called nearby cafe in North Bend,

768
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: said the same thing, do you know where she is?

769
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: They had known Ruth, probably because she owned land and

770
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: she had been up before. She was familiar with this area.

771
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: She knew how to drive an RV, so she's not

772
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: scared to do any of this. The cafe says, no,

773
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: we haven't seen her either. So he makes these calls

774
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 1: and then panics and reaches out to the Washington State

775
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: Patrol Station and says that he's worried about Ruth, but

776
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: now things start to get a little odd and rule

777
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: the author says that Tony changes his story during this

778
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: particular call to the Washington State Patrol. He says that

779
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: the couple had decided, rather than camp, that they were

780
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: going to return to their Auburn home, and that he

781
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: decided to take the SUV and she decided to get

782
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: a head start by driving the Winnebago. Okay, so now

783
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: the story has completely changed. It has not. She walked

784
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: off and now she hasn't come back, and maybe a

785
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: bear aid her. This is we decided to head back

786
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: to Auburn, and she went ahead in the RV and

787
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: I'm in the SUV and I now I don't know

788
00:43:58,520 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: where she is.

789
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 2: Right But at the time that he is talking to

790
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: the State Patrol, they don't know that he's given different

791
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: statements to the two restaurants, right, so you know they're now, okay,

792
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: this is the facts that they know. She's in an

793
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: RV and he says, I've got our cheap.

794
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: And he says that he waited about twenty minutes to leave,

795
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: so she had a twenty or thirty minute head start.

796
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: He didn't see her or the RV anywhere on the

797
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: road he had reported that. Eventually neither were in Auburn.

798
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: He finally goes back to the couple's house and no

799
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: one hears from Ruth throughout the night, So the state

800
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: police are saying, well, it's dark and now the family

801
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: is alarmed. So this is where things get a little

802
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,479
Speaker 1: bit complicated. The next day, Tony and a man named

803
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: Donald Stafford, who is engaged to Ruth's daughter, Susan, the

804
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: other one that's not in Texas, start driving around and

805
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: Donald is the one who spots this. Okay, there are

806
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: skid marks on this logging road that has a steep,

807
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: rocky embankment off its shoulder, so it's been described as

808
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: a slope or cliff that leads into a ravine. And

809
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: about three hundred feet down the embankment is there smashed

810
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: Winnebago r V and it looks like if Ruth was

811
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: driving that she had careened off the logging road sometime

812
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: that night and crashed below.

813
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm picturing several different visuals of the skid marks.

814
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: I can easily see the logging road in my head,

815
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: and you know, the steep embankment. You know, the skid

816
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: marks are interesting. Are these skid marks just showing almost

817
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: like the Winnebago RV rolling off the embankment? Or is

818
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: it showing that the Winnebagel is traveling at high speed

819
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: and brakes are being applied. You know, this is where

820
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: getting you know, some experts to assess the mechanics of

821
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: the Winnebago after it's recovered, as well as evaluating these

822
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: these skid marks. So that would be something I wish

823
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: we had pictures of.

824
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: I know, Sorry, Paul, I know a little shocked to

825
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: be down from the nineteen seventies, but we have some

826
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: pretty good descriptions that I'll tell you about. So first

827
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about Ruth. We have this smashed up RV

828
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: and Donald investigates and of course is scared to see

829
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: what he finds here. So not far from the wreckage,

830
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: about one hundred feet down the embankment from the RV

831
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: is the lifeless body of Ruth Fernandez. So she is

832
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: not in the Winnebago, but she has clear signs of

833
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: trauma to her head and to her stomach. And the

834
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: presumption is that the RV veered off the steep embankment

835
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: that sits along the logging road and on the way

836
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: down the rocky slope, she had been ejected from the vehicle.

837
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: So this is a story about whether or not this

838
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: was an accident or whether this was a murder.

839
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: And these sometimes can be tough to try to tease out.

840
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of curious, of course, what the autopsy shows,

841
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 2: what the evaluation of Winnebago shows, you know, And I'm

842
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: sure you will fill me in on that.

843
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: In one week, I knew it.

844
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 2: He got me hanging on the edge. Oh hold on,

845
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: no pun intended that.

846
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: Number one question that I don't want you to answer

847
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: right now is have you worked a case like this

848
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: where somebody is ejected from the car and it is

849
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: a question about whether or not this is murder or

850
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: whether or not this is an accident, Because this seems

851
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: like an excellent way to cover up a murder. But

852
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: I also thought fire was an excellent way to cover

853
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: up a murder, and I have since found out that

854
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 1: I'm wrong.

855
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: It's all and how it's done.

856
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I will see you in one week and

857
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: we will talk about Ruth and Tony Fernandez and what

858
00:47:59,160 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: may or may not.

859
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: Have had okay, looking forward to hearing the rest of

860
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 2: the story.

861
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: Kape see you soon.

862
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

863
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our Sources

864
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

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Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

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Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: ary Bones pod.

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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

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Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

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Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now