WEBVTT - Born to Run: James Hogue

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<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Zaren.

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<v Speaker 3>Girl Nothing Much.

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<v Speaker 2>Listen. I was wondering if you knew what was ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>I was so hoping you would ask me that, because

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<v Speaker 1>I do you got a new dog? Yes, they did

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<v Speaker 1>a Bernie's mountainn a doodle. But it's part Bernie's Mountain Dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Part it's a half Bernie's Mountain Dog, half poodle.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Now do you know what you now have with

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<v Speaker 1>Frank Ocean?

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<v Speaker 2>Does Frank Ocean have a burn A Doodle?

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<v Speaker 1>Not only does he have a Burna doodle, he has

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<v Speaker 1>a Bernie's Mountain Dog. He has half of what you have,

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<v Speaker 1>but he also he named his dog Everest. Here's what

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<v Speaker 1>the dog looks like, right, And here he is in

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<v Speaker 1>the studio with his dog, right. Because the reason why

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<v Speaker 1>this dog is so important is Everest to him is

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<v Speaker 1>that he named the dog an executive producer on his

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<v Speaker 1>album Channel Orange. Okay, and that one the Graand so

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<v Speaker 1>his dog is the only dog ever to win Grammy.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the only dog ever to win a Grammy period.

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<v Speaker 1>But there you go that you now have a common

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<v Speaker 1>thing with You can tell people my dog is much

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<v Speaker 1>like the Grammy Award winning Everest, which is you know

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<v Speaker 1>of the Frank Ocean family.

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<v Speaker 2>Ros and then and then I've got Monty. Oh that's right,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm running with two now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're running deep.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm back in my correct place.

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<v Speaker 1>There you are. It seems like your energies are sorted.

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<v Speaker 2>Rosie is a handful.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I notice all like the bitten clothing and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh, oh yeah, there's interns.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that is that is ridiculous, right? You know what

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<v Speaker 2>else is ridiculous?

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<v Speaker 1>No, but I think you can tell.

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<v Speaker 2>Me Criming for the love of running. This is ridiculous

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<v Speaker 2>crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers. Heis cons

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<v Speaker 2>It's always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>percent ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>You damn right.

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<v Speaker 2>You. You mentioned recently that you don't like jogging, so

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<v Speaker 2>you're not a runner.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh No. I will run in two instances, if there's

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<v Speaker 1>a ball or a gun.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's a good rule.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, both of those times I will run happily.

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<v Speaker 4>Ye.

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<v Speaker 1>So, but if there's no ball, no gun, probably not running.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, I've never been one for running. In my

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<v Speaker 2>former life, I was relatively athletic like, I played a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of sports when I was younger, but I always

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<v Speaker 2>hated running always.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like jogging. I like sprinting, like I can,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't walking.

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<v Speaker 2>I love walking. I do what I wish I were

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<v Speaker 2>in the running ambling. I love strolling. For people who

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<v Speaker 2>love to run, like it gives them a high, they're

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<v Speaker 2>into it, and they start to feel off when they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Run, like because their body gets regulated by.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I envy that. And there's also yeah, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>seem like something.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's just no way there's I am built for comfort,

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<v Speaker 2>not speed, so there's no way I'm running, right, but

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<v Speaker 2>I wish I could. There's the solitary nature of like

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<v Speaker 2>the long distance runner. Oh yeah, I like solitary activity.

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<v Speaker 1>This is true. This is very true.

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<v Speaker 2>And like that running must be very therapeutic and contemplative

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<v Speaker 2>like zen Like, yeah, so.

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<v Speaker 1>It's cross country skiing or yeah, there's non impactful right.

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<v Speaker 2>So for kids coming up who run, the accomplishment outside

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<v Speaker 2>of the running itself is to like run in college,

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<v Speaker 2>get a scholarship or something, and the top of the

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<v Speaker 2>pile is the Olympics. Oh yeah, right, But it's not

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<v Speaker 2>like football or baseball or basketball with profession in the leagues.

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<v Speaker 1>No, pretty much. You go to Penn Nationals, then you

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<v Speaker 1>go to the Olympics and you're adult.

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<v Speaker 2>That's it. But then you ex exactly. But like those

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<v Speaker 2>sports though, like the you know, professional league sports, there

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<v Speaker 2>are phenoms in running. Yes, they're just gifted and they

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<v Speaker 2>have to do it. Born runners. Yes, I want to

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<v Speaker 2>tell you about a born runner, babe. He was born

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<v Speaker 2>to run. He's a fascinating character. His name is James Hogue.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's the same, time's familiar.

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<v Speaker 2>Good Midwestern boy.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>He was born October twenty second, nineteen fifty nine in

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<v Speaker 2>Kansas City, Kansas. Ah. So it's not the same as

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<v Speaker 2>Kansas City, Missouri. The President may not know the difference,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is an important difference. It is Kansas City, Missouri,

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<v Speaker 2>very large city. Half a million people live there, home

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<v Speaker 2>to your chiefs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, not my chiefs, but the chiefs.

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<v Speaker 3>And then.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred and fifty thousand people live in Kansas City, Kansas.

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<v Speaker 1>And are they separated by anything the river?

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I think, yeah, so wyan Dot County, Kansas. I

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<v Speaker 2>think like GM plants and associated warehouse and so it's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of working class folks and the Hogues working

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<v Speaker 2>class family. I think his dad worked for like the

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<v Speaker 2>railroad or something. So James normal kid, except for the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that he was fast.

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<v Speaker 3>He was a great run, super fast James.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's fleet footed, excellent stamina. Like this guy could

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<v Speaker 2>just run for long distance.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh so he's both fast and cross country distance.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, okay, and he's just a quiet dude, you know. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>so he ran track in high school. Of course, he

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<v Speaker 2>was state champion in a two mile run and his

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<v Speaker 2>name is still on a plaque in the wall at

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<v Speaker 2>Washington High School.

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<v Speaker 1>Good for him.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So he graduated in nineteen seventy seven and he

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<v Speaker 2>goes off to college at the University of Wyoming now

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<v Speaker 2>University of Wyoming track program. Super interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>And also he's coming along right when running is becoming

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<v Speaker 1>a realty exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So the big dogs in running at the time were

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Texas at i'll Passo and the University

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<v Speaker 2>of Oregon are the two ones, and so they dominated

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<v Speaker 2>all the running, and they sent a lot of athletes

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<v Speaker 2>to the Olympics, and so they battled it out constantly

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<v Speaker 2>for the top spot in the NCAA rankings, and the

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<v Speaker 2>head coach at the University of Wyoming. Ron Richardson. He

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<v Speaker 2>was brought in to shake up the program. He wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to rival those colleges and take some titles. Go ahead,

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<v Speaker 2>send some runners to go for the gold. So James

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<v Speaker 2>he got to the school at the same time as

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<v Speaker 2>this new coach did, and James he could be part

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<v Speaker 2>of this new exciting program and it was brutal. Training

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<v Speaker 2>was nuts. James was all about it right. So here's

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<v Speaker 2>a description from the New Yorker quote. Members of the

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<v Speaker 2>Wyoming team that year describe Richardson as a cold, distant

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<v Speaker 2>figure who met with his athletes underneath the bleachers of

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<v Speaker 2>the university's indoor track in a small, cramped office where

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<v Speaker 2>he kept a dog eared copy of a book about

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<v Speaker 2>the management techniques of Jengis Khan. As the skies grew

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<v Speaker 2>dark and the temperature dropped, Richardson would push his runners

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<v Speaker 2>through thirty two two hundred and twenty meters sprints wow,

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<v Speaker 2>followed by sixteen quarter miles and eight half mile.

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<v Speaker 1>Runs sixteen quarter miles miles.

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<v Speaker 2>Then eight half mile. Having read that sprinters would retain

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<v Speaker 2>muscle memory when they ran faster than they were ordinarily

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<v Speaker 2>able to do, he also developed a unique system for

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<v Speaker 2>training his distance runners. He would tie a rope to

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<v Speaker 2>a tumbling belt around the runner's waist and tow the

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<v Speaker 2>runner up and down the high altitude trails, holding the

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<v Speaker 2>other end of the rope as he drove his Volkswagon bug.

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<v Speaker 2>When his runners lost a meat at Brigham Young University,

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<v Speaker 2>he picked them up early the next morning, dropped them

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<v Speaker 2>off seventeen miles from Laramie, and told him to run home.

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<v Speaker 2>What yeah, so the sky no nonsense? Like nuts? He

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<v Speaker 2>wanted a team of winners, yes, and so to help

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<v Speaker 2>do that beyond this training regimen.

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<v Speaker 1>The pulling the Volkswagen is nuts.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, there are pictures of it. He figured. You

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<v Speaker 2>know what, I'm going to import some runners? Yeah, enter

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<v Speaker 2>the Kenyans. Oh, of course, Kenyans dominate distance running for

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<v Speaker 2>whatever reasons. Kenyons are amazing, And I'm sure there are

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<v Speaker 2>Kenyans like me who say God bless and good job

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<v Speaker 2>to the runners and are not so inclined themselves. But

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<v Speaker 2>those who do run are disproportionately amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, didn't tell me about the oxygenation.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, So all these Kenyons showed up on scholarship

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<v Speaker 2>in Wyoming. I think they're like four and they were

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<v Speaker 2>they were like twenty eight years old. So in Wyoming,

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<v Speaker 2>this is not an organic track de part no no.

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<v Speaker 2>So they locked in immediately.

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<v Speaker 3>To the getting food to eat.

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<v Speaker 2>Wyoming goodness. So they were all about this punishing training regime.

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<v Speaker 2>Like some of them would put heavy boots on and

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<v Speaker 2>run in the snow to like keep you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of the team they're struggling, James is keeping

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<v Speaker 2>up the coaches. Gambit paid off. So November of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy seven, University of Wyoming's cross country team finished third

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<v Speaker 2>in the country behind Oregon. Yeah, so James, he had

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<v Speaker 2>this friend from back home, Keith Mark, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>one of them two first namers. So Keith he'd been

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<v Speaker 2>a runner two, but not as talented or driven as James,

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<v Speaker 2>but the two like stayed in touch. After James went

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<v Speaker 2>off to college. James would write in letters about what

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<v Speaker 2>it was like and how grueling the training was, but

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<v Speaker 2>he never had any complaints, just like arrow Focus. His

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<v Speaker 2>sophomore year, James had Keith come to visit, and Keith

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<v Speaker 2>saw a bunch of car stereos and bike frames and

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<v Speaker 2>James's apartment. Yeah, he's like red flag, Like, where did

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<v Speaker 2>you get all this stuff? James? He later went to

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<v Speaker 2>visit Keith back at home and James leaves the house.

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<v Speaker 2>Keith looks around and sees that one of his track

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<v Speaker 2>medals is missing and it was for an event that

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<v Speaker 2>James had never won. So he calls James. James is like, no,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't take it. But then later calls Keith back

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<v Speaker 2>and he's like, yeah, my mom found your metal outside

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<v Speaker 2>or something. That was pretty much the last time they talked.

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<v Speaker 1>So ye, friendship over.

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<v Speaker 2>So, like all this stuff happened in college, Like he

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<v Speaker 2>was working in collecting butterflies for some professor and like

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<v Speaker 2>got all in this inclement weather and like had these

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<v Speaker 2>moments where it was just you know, transformative for him. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so he's different at this point. He's not like taking drugs.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait you say transformative, He's different. So he went out

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<v Speaker 1>on like a butterfly hunting expedition.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a crazy storm.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he bare almost died, and yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Keith was there. They almost died and it was just

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<v Speaker 2>like nuts and he thinks that that was like the

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<v Speaker 2>moment where everything kind of changed with James. But James

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<v Speaker 2>when they asked him He's like, this wasn't a big

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<v Speaker 2>deal butterflies, Yeah, exactly. So shortly after this, James drops

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<v Speaker 2>out of school at Wyoming and he moves to Texas

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<v Speaker 2>and he goes to community college there, and then he

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<v Speaker 2>transferred to University of Texas at Austin and he was

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<v Speaker 2>he was about to graduate, but then he ran out

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<v Speaker 2>of money so he left. And then he got busted

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<v Speaker 2>in Austin for theft from a bicycle shop. He loves bike,

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<v Speaker 2>stealing bike stuff. Oh yeah. He bounced out to Colorado

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<v Speaker 2>after that. There's a lot of missing time.

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<v Speaker 1>That his story is hard to figure out.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's for us to track, you know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what he was up to. He was in California

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<v Speaker 2>for a while. He's bumming around getting odd jobs, stealing

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<v Speaker 2>stuff here and there. And then he shows up again,

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<v Speaker 2>this time in Palo Alto, California. Hey, and this time,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five year old James was suddenly sixteen year old

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<v Speaker 2>orphan Jay Mitchell Huntsman.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, he's six.

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<v Speaker 1>He can pass for sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>He's kind of a slight guy.

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<v Speaker 1>He said. He was like a long distance runner. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>imagining him kind of fine bombing.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor, really tall, Palo Alto is my dad's hometown, by

0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.960
<v Speaker 2>the way, really and Jay Huntsman he wanted to go

0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.320
<v Speaker 2>this orphan Jay Huntsman, he wanted to go to my

0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.840
<v Speaker 2>dad's alma mater, Palo Alto High School, affectionately known as

0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Palli Pal.

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, was that weird for you? Pop up?

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was weird like Palli. Oh, So who was

0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:19.440
<v Speaker 2>the real Jay Huntsman?

0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Who is the real Jays?

0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Great question? He did exist with the birthday that James provided.

0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.720
<v Speaker 2>So it seems that James combed newspaper articles from around

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 2>the time he wanted to have been born, and he

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.840
<v Speaker 2>found an o bit for a newborn who passed away

0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.520
<v Speaker 2>from pneumonia. Whoa boom, new identity. So here's how it

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.120
<v Speaker 2>all goes down, right, James. He goes up to the

0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.319
<v Speaker 2>Stanford cross country coach and tells him, I'm a sixteen

0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.680
<v Speaker 2>year old orphan, you know, he said, I was born

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 2>in San Diego nineteen sixty nine. When I was eight,

0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.599
<v Speaker 2>me and my family we moved to this Ananda ashrom

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:53.439
<v Speaker 2>in Nevada.

0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:54.640
<v Speaker 3>Whoa yeah, he says.

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.720
<v Speaker 2>He's like self taught. He did all his learning on

0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.480
<v Speaker 2>his own, he said. When he wasn't working in the

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 2>asheron he ran fifty to sixty miles a week, so.

0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.280
<v Speaker 1>This explains why he has no transcripts.

0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then his parents died in the car accident

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.680
<v Speaker 2>in Bolivia even and then he sets his sights on

0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.840
<v Speaker 2>attending Stanford, and he figured Palo Alto High was the

0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.320
<v Speaker 2>place to get started on that. So the coach at

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.839
<v Speaker 2>Stanford's like, yeah, go register with the school district. I'm

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.760
<v Speaker 2>not sure how you showed up here, but okay. So

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.520
<v Speaker 2>James he gets provisionally accepted into the Palo Alto Unified

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.920
<v Speaker 2>School district and they send him to Pali. Now there

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.440
<v Speaker 2>are other high school There's Gun, you know, other high school's,

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.920
<v Speaker 2>but now he goes to Pali and then he unofficially

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 2>joins the cross country team. Unofficially, well, they're like for

0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 2>the paperwork to come through, so they can't like he's

0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:45.760
<v Speaker 2>He's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to have him send

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 2>out my birth certifigin. I'm going to have him send.

0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Out I was wondering what paperwork.

0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.280
<v Speaker 2>School everyone, But in the meantime they're like, yeah, whatever,

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.160
<v Speaker 2>come to school. We don't want you, you know, being

0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>in delinquent. Everyone really liked him. His class and his team.

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.400
<v Speaker 2>They're fascinated by his story and they couldn't get over

0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 2>his race times, like they're incredible. But don't forget this

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 2>guy was like a runner at University of Wyoming and

0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.760
<v Speaker 2>now he's like, oh yeah, he's a twenty five year

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.320
<v Speaker 2>old former collegiate runner. So he did well in school

0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.840
<v Speaker 2>at Wyoming, right, so it should also come as no

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.760
<v Speaker 2>surprise that he was acing things at Pally. His English

0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>teacher thought that he looked a little older than his peers.

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Quote as a teacher, it was rude for me to

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 2>even think that he was older, even though he was

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.120
<v Speaker 2>very thin and you could see the shadow of his beard.

0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>He had these crows feet eyes exactly.

0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.920
<v Speaker 2>So then came the Stanford Cross Country Invitational October seventh,

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.400
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five. So remember, James, he was not officially

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 2>a member of the team. He'd only been there a

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 2>couple of weeks, and he'd only been accepted into the

0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>school district provisionally. As I said, so I'm assuming you

0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.400
<v Speaker 2>know he's they're still waiting good luck. But James, uh,

0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 2>the coach was like, you know what, you can still run,

0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.280
<v Speaker 2>go out there, just don't cross the finish line. It's

0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:08.800
<v Speaker 2>like auditing a class.

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Weird.

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he puts a Pali jersey. I guess he puts

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.480
<v Speaker 2>a Pali jersey on inside out and he takes off,

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 2>and I guess they're figuring, like, you know, just run

0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.080
<v Speaker 2>with and like get a sense of it. No, he

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.680
<v Speaker 2>goes out there and just dominates, and he just dusts everybody,

0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 2>and he's like about to win the race, like way

0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.120
<v Speaker 2>ahead of everybody, and then he suddenly veers off and

0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 2>leaves the course like he didn't understand what it meant,

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.120
<v Speaker 2>like cross, go, but don't cross. It's just like stay

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 2>with the pack, right Instead, he just like blasts off.

0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's totally puzzled by this. There just just happened.

0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.200
<v Speaker 1>Pulls off like he stolen NASCAR gut.

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.880
<v Speaker 2>And then so there was a reporter there from a

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 2>local paper, Jason Cole with the Peninsula Times Tribune. He

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 2>thought the whole thing was super weird. So he starts

0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.960
<v Speaker 2>like calling around, like who is this kid? He gets

0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the mystery kids IDENTI and backstory from the school district,

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>and then it raised more questions than answers for him.

0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.200
<v Speaker 2>He's like, this is nuts, and I'm guessing that the

0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.400
<v Speaker 2>reporter went looking for information about the parents car accident

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.560
<v Speaker 2>or something. It's like going through microfiche. Remember it's like

0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 2>eighty five. But he comes across the same story about

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.960
<v Speaker 2>the real Jay Huntsman. The dates matched up, and so

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Cole the reporter tells the school district what he found,

0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>and then he wrote an expose in the paper. Yes,

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 2>and the district confronted James is this true? He's like, yeah,

0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 2>what's your real name? James Hogue? And then he tells

0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 2>him the truth. They're freaked out and he blows town.

0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 2>He leaves before anything can happen. Let's stop here for

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>a second, take a breathere, get some electrolytes, mellow out.

0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 2>When we come back, we're going to see what James

0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>got up to next.

0:16:48.960 --> 0:17:10.919
<v Speaker 5>Hell yeah, Zaren yo, Darren.

0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.280
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, I had to do a couple of laughs, real quick, good, good,

0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Get out of my system. I always talk of running.

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Get me fired. You know, I was on a track team,

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.440
<v Speaker 1>so you know where you a bunch of times?

0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:20.080
<v Speaker 2>What did you do?

0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Hurdles? Long jump? I also a relay four by four relay.

0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 2>You're saying you don't you only run if it's a

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 2>ball or gun.

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, there there's a starting pistol.

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I see what you're saying.

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, now, but normally it's a yeah, like I'm going

0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 1>to shoot you gun.

0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 2>But you're a fast runner.

0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 1>I was fastest.

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I can imagine that.

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 1>It was the fastest person on my football team.

0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Nice, good for you.

0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 3>So I broke both knees old true star OUCHI ouch.

0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 2>So it was nineteen eighty five and James Hog in

0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.879
<v Speaker 2>knees intact, tries to pass himself off as a sixteen

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.880
<v Speaker 2>year old cross country running prodigy.

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:53.719
<v Speaker 3>Huh.

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>He gets found out, skips town night. He turns up

0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.360
<v Speaker 2>again a few years later.

0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:59.960
<v Speaker 1>In Utah in another high school.

0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.520
<v Speaker 2>No, he's in Saint George, Utah, and he's stealing bike frames,

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.919
<v Speaker 2>of course, living out of a storage space. He had

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.080
<v Speaker 2>stolen really expensive ones from California and that's what he's

0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 2>gotten his storage space. Yeah, and he was I think

0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:15.920
<v Speaker 2>he was selling.

0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.720
<v Speaker 1>Some of those canon kept. Yeah, you're living on the streets.

0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.880
<v Speaker 2>So he's in this storage space. He's living there, he's

0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>got all the bike frames, but he's also doing research

0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.320
<v Speaker 2>about getting into an ivy League college.

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 1>How was he doing libraries?

0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 2>I imagine, Yeah, he just hung out the library all

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.720
<v Speaker 2>the time. He took the essayts and then he wrote

0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:39.879
<v Speaker 2>these like absolutely incredible application essays. He invented an even

0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.040
<v Speaker 2>more incredible backstory. So it's better than the truth that

0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.639
<v Speaker 2>he was a twenty eight year old from Kansas with

0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>a penchant for lifting things that were in his and

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 2>then even better than the sixteen year old former Ashram

0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Living kid who became an orphan things to the dangerous

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.000
<v Speaker 2>highways of Bolivia. He's like, no, I'm shooting for the

0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.359
<v Speaker 2>moon on this one. I'm going all the way. He

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.160
<v Speaker 2>became Alexi Induris Santana.

0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow, and listen, that's a hell of a name.

0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Boy, Howdy did he craft the most amazing bio for

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 2>this kid. So Alexi Santana was homeschooled and then self taught,

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:21.000
<v Speaker 2>just like Jay Huntsman. He lived in Switzerland, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Morocco,

0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.600
<v Speaker 2>and all over the American West. Yes, he later told

0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.520
<v Speaker 2>a reporter for The Trent Times quote, It's not that unusual,

0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.359
<v Speaker 2>at least not when I was young in California, I

0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.040
<v Speaker 2>went to nursery school in kindergarten, and then my parents

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>decided they'd teach me at home. You have to set

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.080
<v Speaker 2>up a private school. I learned to read early and

0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.440
<v Speaker 2>always had a lot of books. Some days I'd read

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.639
<v Speaker 2>from the morning tonight. I learned some French and Italian.

0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.439
<v Speaker 2>I never have had a TV, but I listened to

0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot of music. I'd go to librarians and they'd

0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 2>help me find the books I needed.

0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know it sounds convinced like that. You're like, oh, yes,

0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.280
<v Speaker 1>look at you. You auto died act working with librarians

0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.880
<v Speaker 1>and in the catalog of expand your mind.

0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>You're fascinating. His dad's dead, he says. His mom, he said,

0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:09.040
<v Speaker 2>was an artist living in Switzerland.

0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.080
<v Speaker 1>He does like the flip on Disney instead of like

0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:12.000
<v Speaker 1>dead mom, it's dead.

0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Dad dad mom artist in Switzerland. He said. He taught

0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:22.199
<v Speaker 2>himself to run in the Mojave Desert, he said. He

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.680
<v Speaker 2>said he was currently you're gonna I cannot wait for you.

0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.120
<v Speaker 2>He said he was currently a ranch hand in Arizona

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.800
<v Speaker 2>and Utah top hand on He's moving cattle and sheep

0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in a canyon called Little Purgatory. He said he hadn't

0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.080
<v Speaker 2>slept inside in ten years, and then he read. He

0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.840
<v Speaker 2>read Plato under the Stars. He only had his horse,

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.400
<v Speaker 2>the livestock, and his radio to keep them company. He

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.639
<v Speaker 2>made up a letter of recommendation from the imaginary owner

0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:58.200
<v Speaker 2>of the imaginary ranch he imaginarily lived in, oh He

0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.119
<v Speaker 2>creates a story that no one could resist, and he

0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.639
<v Speaker 2>used it to get into Princeton. So he made a

0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.959
<v Speaker 2>visit to the campus after getting accepted. It's spring and

0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.080
<v Speaker 2>he's set to start in the falls. They're offering him

0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.320
<v Speaker 2>a full scholarship. Naturally, he went and he met with

0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:17.359
<v Speaker 2>people who charmed everyone with his tases, like huck Finn

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Existence and Huck Finn. That's the thing is, that's what

0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:22.720
<v Speaker 2>the folks at the admissions office thought they would It

0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:27.200
<v Speaker 2>would be an ideal candidate when asked, Yeah, aside from

0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 2>legacy students and the children of the wealthy. So meanwhile,

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.320
<v Speaker 2>back in Saint George, Utah, things are developing. Some very

0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.520
<v Speaker 2>expensive stolen bicycle frames and parts had been traced to

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.960
<v Speaker 2>James's storage unit, and the cops got a warrant and

0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 2>they searched it, finding all the hot merch. They also

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.239
<v Speaker 2>found his applications to and correspondence with a bunch of

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 2>elite universities. They found an acceptance letter to Stanford under

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the Alexi Santana name. Letters from other colleges doctored up

0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.320
<v Speaker 2>newspaper clippings about the amazing running skills of Alexi Santana

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.480
<v Speaker 2>and then the materials that tied to James Hog the

0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:05.960
<v Speaker 2>actual guy. So while the police were in the unit,

0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:09.080
<v Speaker 2>James showed up and was arrested immediately.

0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:12.479
<v Speaker 1>Oh he actually showed him and walked right seem and no,

0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.000
<v Speaker 1>he walked Oh, held up out of there.

0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.120
<v Speaker 2>He's just like, oh, oh, you're in here. The detectives

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.639
<v Speaker 2>were super creeped out by the alter ego that they

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.359
<v Speaker 2>stumbled on. Well, they're like, he you know, you're acting

0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.959
<v Speaker 2>like you're this eighteen year old kid, and you have

0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.640
<v Speaker 2>all these materials that you're pretending to be eighteen. You're

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 2>twenty eight. And so while James is in custody, they

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 2>called some of the colleges from the letters and they

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 2>let them know that Alexi Santana was actually a twenty

0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>eight year old.

0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:40.560
<v Speaker 1>Thief party poopers.

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so James, he pleads guilty to the thefts and he

0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:45.720
<v Speaker 2>gets one to five years.

0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, I guess he wouldn't get enrollment anyway because

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 1>he's get you.

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's actually a story in the April seventeenth, nineteen

0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.600
<v Speaker 2>eighty eight, Santa Is Mercury News about the theft and arrest,

0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Great Newspapers, and it says that the police also quote

0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:03.280
<v Speaker 2>found evidence that Hogue, using the name Alexi Santana, was

0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:07.960
<v Speaker 2>corresponding with Ivy League universities about athletic scholarships. So it's

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>in the paper, but none of that news reached Princeton,

0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 2>and the detectives didn't call all of the colleges. They

0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.879
<v Speaker 2>didn't call Princeceton, so they don't know what's going on.

0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Its pre Internet, you know, definitely.

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:21.919
<v Speaker 2>So James he had to figure out how to work this.

0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:24.400
<v Speaker 2>How do you do your time and also go to Princeton.

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, remember you gave me a ride like a year

0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:27.800
<v Speaker 1>three years ago.

0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, he wasn't going to let jail get in the

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.399
<v Speaker 2>way of his dream. So while awaiting his move to prison,

0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 2>he got in touch with Princeton admissions office and he

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.880
<v Speaker 2>asked for a deferment of acceptance. Smart so he told

0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.119
<v Speaker 2>him that his mother in Switzerland was very sick, dying

0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:44.560
<v Speaker 2>of cancer. He had to go take care of her.

0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Princeton's like, of course, we will be here for you

0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:48.600
<v Speaker 2>next year.

0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:50.280
<v Speaker 1>He has to go and take care of your mind.

0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Like James knew he wasn't going to do a whole

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.359
<v Speaker 2>year inside and he was right. So he gets out

0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:56.359
<v Speaker 2>and then he makes his way to New Jersey to

0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 2>become a Princeton man. So he shows up a few

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.040
<v Speaker 2>weeks before our classes started to train with the track

0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:05.560
<v Speaker 2>team and go through the orientation process. He meets his

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>roommates in the dorms, one of whom was from Palo

0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Alto but apparently didn't recognize him. Wow, yeah, I'm thinking

0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:16.000
<v Speaker 2>he went to another high school.

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:17.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, totally me. He could be also from East Palo

0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.240
<v Speaker 1>out there or something where he's like different culture.

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:21.919
<v Speaker 2>He could have gone to one of the other publics.

0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:24.160
<v Speaker 2>He could have gone to a private Embellerman or any

0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of these others. Gone up to the city to like

0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.040
<v Speaker 2>Saint Ignatius s I. Anyway, so he had he's he's

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.639
<v Speaker 2>got a roommate in this unit of four guys from

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.479
<v Speaker 2>Palo Alto. So at Moven, you know, James shows up.

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.880
<v Speaker 2>He's got a bunch of books and CDs. He has

0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.160
<v Speaker 2>this photo of a skier doing like a sweet juicy

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 2>fruit move through some powder that he puts up on

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:48.680
<v Speaker 2>his wall, and he has a Mexican blanket and he

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 2>slept on the floor of the room, so like the

0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.480
<v Speaker 2>bed was always made, he just slept on the floor.

0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, He's like.

0:24:55.119 --> 0:25:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Look, I'm a cowhan, I'm a ranch hand, I'm a cowboy. Yeah, exactly.

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:08.879
<v Speaker 2>I only eat beans to soft from exactly. So in

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:12.439
<v Speaker 2>the first weeks of class, his roommate like because they

0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 2>have like a unit of four, but then it's like

0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:17.399
<v Speaker 2>two to a room. His roommate got hit and killed

0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:21.560
<v Speaker 2>by a truck. Yeah, James was like sad, everyone's all upside,

0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.800
<v Speaker 2>but he was kind of stoked because he got private

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.960
<v Speaker 2>room all to himself. They didn't put anyone in there,

0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and he's just had a little campfire gun play in

0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:34.720
<v Speaker 2>the harmonica all day.

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Uh, he go in there, gets real lonesome real quick.

0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:42.959
<v Speaker 2>But like he just became a regular Princeton student. He

0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 2>went to class. He got phenomenal grades. He was taking

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 2>six or seven courses each semester, which is yeah, he

0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:54.600
<v Speaker 2>got almost all a's in everything. He ran for the

0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:57.600
<v Speaker 2>track team. You know, he starts making friends. He's genial,

0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:00.639
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't ever like expound on anything, kept everything

0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>really surface.

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Also, I mean he's doing track practice, studying a lot

0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.879
<v Speaker 1>he's spending a lot of his time alone.

0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:10.880
<v Speaker 2>How he wouldn't have to expound on him exactly well,

0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:13.400
<v Speaker 2>when he would talk to people, like he would look

0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:15.360
<v Speaker 2>at the ground all the time and he would only

0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:18.200
<v Speaker 2>say like a sentence orch So people asked him about

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.680
<v Speaker 2>that skiing photo, like do you ski? He's like, yeah,

0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:23.720
<v Speaker 2>is that you in the picture? He's like, yeah, well,

0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:26.360
<v Speaker 2>how did someone get that shot? I was doing stunts.

0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:29.679
<v Speaker 2>They're like stunts, yeah, for a movie. And then he

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:35.040
<v Speaker 2>just changes the subject, goes on and so everyone's completely

0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:36.199
<v Speaker 2>fascinated by him.

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:37.760
<v Speaker 3>Interesting is yeah.

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:41.680
<v Speaker 2>There's this documentary about him called con Man. It is

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:43.879
<v Speaker 2>really really good. It's not a long feature.

0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:44.200
<v Speaker 1>It' second.

0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Ever, as I was watching it, I realized that James

0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:52.520
<v Speaker 2>was giving everyone exactly what they wanted. The school wanted

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:55.760
<v Speaker 2>a few interesting students to show how broad their population is.

0:26:56.920 --> 0:26:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Not too many interesting students, but you know, exceptional one

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.639
<v Speaker 2>with incredible stories. He's going to enrich their legend.

0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:04.280
<v Speaker 1>Yes, bootstrap students.

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:07.200
<v Speaker 2>And he provided almost the same for the students because

0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.280
<v Speaker 2>they all loved that they had this interesting character there

0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 2>for their like Princeton experience. It made him feel special

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.840
<v Speaker 2>to have this creature among them, and they got to

0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:19.800
<v Speaker 2>feel exceptional by association, Like, look at all the interesting

0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>people I met in college, all the cool people at Princeton.

0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:26.040
<v Speaker 2>So they're thinking like, yeah, this is this elite environment

0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:28.160
<v Speaker 2>where I'm sitting between like the kid of a senator

0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:35.200
<v Speaker 2>and a genius cow poke, you know. So his presencemates, yes, yes,

0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:38.119
<v Speaker 2>and he's this great runner. So he brings his talents

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 2>to the athletic program and not as some sort of

0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 2>brute but with like the elegance and elevated intellect of

0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a long distance runner, a runner philosopher, and a cowboy hat.

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 1>He just sounds itself.

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:56.760
<v Speaker 2>There it is. They have these things called eating clubs

0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:59.960
<v Speaker 2>at Princeton yea, So they're private clubs. Is not part

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:02.600
<v Speaker 2>of the university, and it's like a dining hall meets

0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>social house. Almost all of the undergraduate upperclassmen join one,

0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:10.560
<v Speaker 2>and some are more exclusive than others. So each club

0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 2>is located in its own mansion on this street Prospect Avenue,

0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:18.640
<v Speaker 2>and there are eleven eating clubs in total, so six

0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.439
<v Speaker 2>of them Cannon Club, Cap and Gown, Princeton Tower, the

0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Ivy Club, Tiger Inn, and University Cottage Club. Those picked

0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:30.200
<v Speaker 2>their members through a process called bicker, and it's kind

0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:31.280
<v Speaker 2>of like rush I think.

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:33.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the members picked the next year's members.

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's very competitive, yeah, exactly. And the other five

0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:41.800
<v Speaker 2>are just like a lottery system. It's such a big deal.

0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 2>So one of the most exclusive of the exclusive ones

0:28:45.280 --> 0:28:48.560
<v Speaker 2>is the Ivy Club, and James got tapped for that one.

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:49.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:52.720
<v Speaker 2>Another student remembered it, telling the New Yorker quote, two

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:55.640
<v Speaker 2>guys came in and I guess tapped him, and they

0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.480
<v Speaker 2>rushed him out into the courtyard and poured champagne over

0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:01.360
<v Speaker 2>his head. And he was obviously very excited. And I

0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:03.520
<v Speaker 2>remember being struck that it was kind of a funny

0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 2>thing because he didn't really fit the stereotype of someone

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.040
<v Speaker 2>who would be in an IVY. Yeah. So James, he's

0:29:10.080 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 2>this oddity for everyone, this character that gives them amusement.

0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 2>But there he is, soaking it all up. He's living

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:17.960
<v Speaker 2>this amazing new life.

0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, philosopher cowboy with champagne all over it.

0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Right, reveling in the excitement, the character he's created for himself.

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Like everyone benefits from this.

0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:27.200
<v Speaker 1>He's got a prolonged adolescence.

0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, think about it. Put yourself in his Imagine your

0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:33.280
<v Speaker 2>James and like there's champagne raining down on you.

0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:35.720
<v Speaker 1>You're being invited to the most exclusive.

0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Kyle and all the things you've done in your life

0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:39.479
<v Speaker 2>and then now you get to be this new character.

0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:43.280
<v Speaker 2>So but back to running track. Aw So he got

0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>to college in the fall of eighty nine. By the

0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 2>spring of nineteen ninety one, he was like fully ensconced

0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.760
<v Speaker 2>in the institution like classroom to track everything. And then

0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:59.360
<v Speaker 2>something happened. On February sixteenth, nineteen ninety one, James participated

0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:02.720
<v Speaker 2>in the Harvard Yale Princeton track meet in New Haven, Connecticut.

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Everything's going well. All the Ivy League swells are running

0:30:06.720 --> 0:30:10.640
<v Speaker 2>around like congratulating each other and wearing their j crew whatever. Yes,

0:30:11.480 --> 0:30:12.360
<v Speaker 2>one of the students at.

0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:17.120
<v Speaker 1>The picture them in raccoon hats and fur coats, super preppy. Oh,

0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:18.120
<v Speaker 1>I know you're correct.

0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:21.360
<v Speaker 2>I just want to put rugby shirts, the striped.

0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Rugby shirts and the sweaters and the buffy and chadlock.

0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:28.040
<v Speaker 2>So one of the students at the meat was a

0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 2>senior at Yale, Renee Pacheco, and she was there to

0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>watch a friend of hers compete. Something interesting about Renee

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 2>is that she is an alum of none other than

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Palli Palo Alto High School. She got a good memory. Yeah,

0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:46.240
<v Speaker 2>So she looks over and she sees one of the

0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Princeton team members. He looks familiar. They lock eyes and

0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:53.280
<v Speaker 2>she knew. She's like, that's j Mitchell Huntsman, International boy

0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 2>of Mystery.

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:58.360
<v Speaker 3>Like she knew, so she goes up to also know

0:30:58.960 --> 0:30:59.600
<v Speaker 3>they both have them.

0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:02.040
<v Speaker 2>She goes up to talk to him and he's like,

0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>doesn't recognize her. She's like, oh, remember me, what's up? Jay?

0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:07.720
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, that's the thing when you're the more

0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 1>interesting person, is that you're going to be more memorable.

0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly. He he doesn't recognize her. She's flummoxed. So

0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:17.160
<v Speaker 2>she she goes home and she calls that Palo Alto

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:20.800
<v Speaker 2>reporter Jason Cole. Oh wow, busted James the first time.

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.200
<v Speaker 2>She is a little snitch, is what she is?

0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, no, but she's like a detective with the.

0:31:24.920 --> 0:31:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Whole Yeah the rene mind your own business. Yeah, he's

0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:32.040
<v Speaker 2>not hurting anybody. So Cole, the reporter, he turns around

0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:35.400
<v Speaker 2>and calls Princeton. He's like, you know what, Alexi Santana

0:31:35.520 --> 0:31:38.959
<v Speaker 2>is actually James Hoag and he's done this before and

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 2>Prince is like according to the New Yorker quote. Justin Harmon,

0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:47.520
<v Speaker 2>the director of Communications at Princeton, was grateful for the warning.

0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 2>A meeting was immediately convened with the Dean of Admissions,

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Fred Harganau and the Dean of the College. Santana's file

0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:58.960
<v Speaker 2>was produced, his application was reviewed. It became clear to us.

0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Harmon recalled, particularly to the deans, that the only course

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>of action from the standpoint of the institution, since this

0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 2>young man had applied to Princeton under utterly false pretenses,

0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 2>was to declare the admission null and void. And so

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:16.280
<v Speaker 2>that's what we did. Alexei Santana was now officially a ghost,

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:17.640
<v Speaker 2>is how the quote ends.

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 1>Wow. So they just they don't like go and try

0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:22.640
<v Speaker 1>to remove him. They just say, you're no longer a student.

0:32:22.760 --> 0:32:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're out, like full on you know ejection.

0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:28.360
<v Speaker 1>You were never here. This never happened.

0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, never happened. So let's stop your let's stop for

0:32:33.440 --> 0:32:36.520
<v Speaker 2>a second, a minute, one too. We come back. We're

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:38.560
<v Speaker 2>going to see what it means for Alexi to be

0:32:38.600 --> 0:33:03.200
<v Speaker 2>a ghost. Hey buddy, Hey what girl, buddy, listen zaren yes,

0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:04.000
<v Speaker 2>close your eyes.

0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, just jump.

0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:09.880
<v Speaker 2>Its placement right, yeah, I want you to picture it. Yes,

0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.760
<v Speaker 2>you are an economics major with a minor in geology

0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:17.760
<v Speaker 2>at Princeton University. Your father went to Princeton. He's the

0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:21.160
<v Speaker 2>CEO of an energy conglomerate, and you are prepping to

0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 2>follow in his footsteps. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen ninety one.

0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 2>Chris Isaac's wicked game is climbing the charts. You love

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that whole album and you listen to it all the

0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:34.920
<v Speaker 2>time on your sony Discman. You wear your hair in

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 2>that sort of updated pompador and think of yourself as

0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 2>a dashing ladies man Zaren. You are not. But that's okay.

0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:44.560
<v Speaker 2>We all get to reinvent ourselves. We all get to

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:48.040
<v Speaker 2>craft our identities for those around us. Right now, you're

0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:52.960
<v Speaker 2>in Geology three sixteen Structural Geology and Tectonics. Well, the

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:57.600
<v Speaker 2>lab portion of the course. Your professor, John Supa pretty

0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:01.120
<v Speaker 2>much crafted this course himself. He literally wrote the book

0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:04.520
<v Speaker 2>on it. And you're all clustered around tables, low mumbled

0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:07.920
<v Speaker 2>conversation and a scribble of pencil on paper to create

0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:11.120
<v Speaker 2>this low buzz in the room. The class is offered

0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:13.400
<v Speaker 2>in the spring semester, so the course can wrap up

0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.799
<v Speaker 2>with a field trip to Vermont. You'll be examining on

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 2>the ground evidence of an ancient tectonic collision between an

0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:24.080
<v Speaker 2>island arc and North America. It's fascinating stuff. There are

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>seven guys in this lab with you, and one of

0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:29.840
<v Speaker 2>them is that cool guy Alexi Santana. He's sitting across

0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 2>from you on the table. He used to dress kind

0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:36.600
<v Speaker 2>of raggedy, like long, scraggly hair, ball cap, pulled low sunglasses,

0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:39.400
<v Speaker 2>cowboy boots, but when he came back for his sophomore year,

0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>he'd gone all preppy, like collared shirts and running shoes,

0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:46.280
<v Speaker 2>short hair. Everything seems so effortless for him. He doesn't

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.680
<v Speaker 2>get distracted. He just keeps his head down and does

0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:52.000
<v Speaker 2>really well, and you envy that. You stop staring at him,

0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:55.000
<v Speaker 2>go back to work, flipping through pages in your notebook.

0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Suddenly there's a knock at the door. Doctor Supa heads

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.759
<v Speaker 2>over and open the large classroom door. Outside are two

0:35:02.800 --> 0:35:06.359
<v Speaker 2>detectives in suits, their badges held up for inspection. We're

0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:09.000
<v Speaker 2>here for James Hogue. They say, I don't have a

0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 2>student with that name, gentlemen, I'm so sorry. Alexi stands.

0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:16.359
<v Speaker 2>They mean me, he says. Everyone in the room looks

0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 2>at each other in silence. I'm James Hogue, he says,

0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:24.640
<v Speaker 2>James hog. One detective says you are under arrest. Every

0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:27.480
<v Speaker 2>One in the room gasps. The professor gives you all

0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 2>a disapproving look. Alexi walks over to the officers and

0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>turns his back to them. One reads his rights as

0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 2>the other clicks handcuffs on him. They usher him out

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:39.399
<v Speaker 2>of the class, his open notebook on the table, his

0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:42.440
<v Speaker 2>backpack on the chair. There's nothing but silence in the

0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:46.279
<v Speaker 2>room until you clear your throat you speak. Looks like

0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:53.240
<v Speaker 2>he was running a wicked game. Everyone groans and rolls

0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:56.320
<v Speaker 2>their eyes. Enough with the Chris Isaac stuff. They complain

0:35:56.360 --> 0:36:01.919
<v Speaker 2>to you, a wicked game. Indeed, you declare, so, I'm

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>sorry it made you such a dork. So the students

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 2>in that class there were now sitting on the best

0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.319
<v Speaker 2>piece of gossip of perhaps God.

0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:13.399
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, so they.

0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Wait the event of their college years. This is like,

0:36:16.040 --> 0:36:17.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, the event at Princeton.

0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, they waste no time in getting the word

0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 2>out that Alexi was not Alexi, and he got arrested.

0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 2>And then they start like inventing more and more details.

0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:28.959
<v Speaker 1>Spice color the track team.

0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:32.560
<v Speaker 2>They're beside themselves. They could not imagine what Alexi could

0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:34.880
<v Speaker 2>have done to get arrested. One of the students who

0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:37.680
<v Speaker 2>had been tasked was showing James around when he first

0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:41.560
<v Speaker 2>showed up, heard through the grapevine about Renee Pachaco and

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:45.360
<v Speaker 2>the Palo Alto story. So he also called the reporter

0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>and got the dirt. Wow, this reporter is like a

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:49.360
<v Speaker 2>weird little anyway.

0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:50.719
<v Speaker 1>And why is there numbers so easy?

0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:51.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:55.360
<v Speaker 2>So meanwhile, James, he's being held at the Princeton Borough

0:36:55.360 --> 0:37:00.439
<v Speaker 2>Police Station. His interview with detectives when is followed under

0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:03.959
<v Speaker 2>what name did you make application to Princeton University? Under

0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Alexi Santana? Where did you obtain that name? I made

0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:10.719
<v Speaker 2>it up for what purpose? I wanted to start all

0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:15.360
<v Speaker 2>over again without any burdens of my past. So James

0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.320
<v Speaker 2>answered all their questions and told the truth about everything.

0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:19.879
<v Speaker 1>He always seems to do that he does.

0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:24.200
<v Speaker 2>But the cops didn't feel like they were getting the

0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:26.919
<v Speaker 2>whole story. But that's just how he operates, Like I'm

0:37:26.920 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>not sure he knew the whole story, Like you know,

0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:33.839
<v Speaker 2>he holds so much to the chest. Pretty soon though

0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:36.719
<v Speaker 2>the national media was all about this. It was just

0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:39.640
<v Speaker 2>too good, and like many of the Princeton students were

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:42.560
<v Speaker 2>totally indignant. How dare this riff raff come in here

0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:43.680
<v Speaker 2>to make a mockery?

0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:46.560
<v Speaker 1>That's the story the elites, right.

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:49.040
<v Speaker 2>And he was supposed to be our special little character.

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:53.880
<v Speaker 2>And then that snitch, Renee but Jacob. She was feeling

0:37:53.920 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 2>all proud of herself for blowing the whole thing wide

0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.840
<v Speaker 2>open until someone said to her, like, he's going to

0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:01.160
<v Speaker 2>go to prison because you know what happens there. You

0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:04.680
<v Speaker 2>know what happens to a guy in prison, and Renee Pachaiko,

0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:07.240
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, she's like, oh, I feel terrible,

0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Like it became real to her, and like the scale

0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:10.640
<v Speaker 2>of the crime.

0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:13.759
<v Speaker 1>She just wanted to bust, not bust somebody, but like

0:38:13.800 --> 0:38:15.040
<v Speaker 1>break out the truth.

0:38:15.120 --> 0:38:19.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess realized, like the machinery of the ramifications of

0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:22.799
<v Speaker 2>this and so like this is so people.

0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Do that they don't think about the results of their

0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:27.160
<v Speaker 1>actions or their choices. And then and then there's surprised

0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:27.440
<v Speaker 1>when he.

0:38:27.719 --> 0:38:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Meets reality to be the hero of her story.

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:30.720
<v Speaker 1>In that moment.

0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:35.120
<v Speaker 2>In that moment, consequences and it's this is so not

0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:37.240
<v Speaker 2>worth any suffering what he does.

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:39.360
<v Speaker 1>No, and if he's getting away with it, I mean, like,

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:41.479
<v Speaker 1>who's really hurting zero?

0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:45.399
<v Speaker 2>People got hurt zero anyway. So while he's in lock up,

0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:51.480
<v Speaker 2>he gets a visit from giacinto this physical chemistry professor

0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:55.480
<v Speaker 2>at Princeton and he felt for James. He didn't think

0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.040
<v Speaker 2>that James was a hard and criminal. He's like someone

0:38:58.040 --> 0:39:00.640
<v Speaker 2>who just doesn't think about the consequences of his action,

0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:05.320
<v Speaker 2>like right, And so James makes bail and the professor

0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>offers him money, but James won't take it. But the

0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:10.680
<v Speaker 2>professors then how about, like, I'm going to help you

0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 2>move to Cambridge. I've got people there like Harvard Harvard.

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.600
<v Speaker 2>He's like, you can take classes at the Harvard Extension

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:20.239
<v Speaker 2>and I can get you a job. He got a

0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:25.480
<v Speaker 2>part time job cataloging Harvard's collection of precious minerals and gems.

0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I feel like that was a bad choice and it

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:30.800
<v Speaker 2>was because stuff went missing.

0:39:30.960 --> 0:39:33.799
<v Speaker 3>Ohs go.

0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:41.759
<v Speaker 2>On this moment, these searches room, they find more than

0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 2>fifty thousand dollars worth of minerals and gems.

0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:45.920
<v Speaker 1>He's like grabbing every sappire he came.

0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:52.040
<v Speaker 2>Crazy expensive microscope that belonged to Hardcore Lab share with

0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the Harvard Seal on it. He's like you. So February tenth,

0:39:57.440 --> 0:39:59.880
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety two, he pleads guilty to the charge of

0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:04.440
<v Speaker 2>theft by deception. He told the court quote, I submitted

0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:07.640
<v Speaker 2>an application at Princeton University which had a different name

0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:10.080
<v Speaker 2>and date of birth. It was my intent to gain

0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:14.280
<v Speaker 2>admission by deception. So he got two hundred and seventy

0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:18.000
<v Speaker 2>days at the Mercer County Correctional Center, one hundred hours

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of community service, five years probation. He was also supposed

0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:22.640
<v Speaker 2>to pay back Princeton twenty one.

0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:24.440
<v Speaker 3>Thousand dollars ride.

0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, And so James he went from Cambridge to

0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:32.640
<v Speaker 2>New Jersey for his sentencing December eighteenth, nineteen ninety two.

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.200
<v Speaker 2>He served five months, and on the day of his release,

0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>he gets arrested for the theft of the gems and he

0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:43.640
<v Speaker 2>did another seventeen months for theft and probation violation. So

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.600
<v Speaker 2>remember that documentary I mentioned. The best part of the

0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:52.480
<v Speaker 2>whole thing is an interview with James's cellmate, Donald Cilentry Junior.

0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:55.600
<v Speaker 2>He's in for being a fence in some sort of

0:40:55.640 --> 0:40:59.240
<v Speaker 2>operation in New Jersey. He said James was a quiet

0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:02.080
<v Speaker 2>guy like your read. And I guess when James got out,

0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.480
<v Speaker 2>he came by Donald's house and dropped off a box

0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.400
<v Speaker 2>of his stuff like books, old clothes, that sort of

0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:11.239
<v Speaker 2>thing and things in the name of Alexei Santana. Like

0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:16.000
<v Speaker 2>there was like a running trophy. So in the documentary,

0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:19.279
<v Speaker 2>like the guy's the cellmate's poking through the box which

0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:21.279
<v Speaker 2>he still had, and he's holding up T shirts and

0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, showing off the contents. And then we go

0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>inside the house and we talked to Donald's dad, Donald

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Cilentre Senior. Don Senior participates in the film sitting in

0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:36.960
<v Speaker 2>an easy chair in a robe with a gun on

0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:37.799
<v Speaker 2>the table.

0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:38.200
<v Speaker 3>Next to him.

0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Like he's just all like casual in this terry cloth robe,

0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.800
<v Speaker 2>just and I'm praying it stays closed. And he's telling

0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:49.280
<v Speaker 2>about how you know, there's something just off about James,

0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and then the camera pans over and there's like a

0:41:51.960 --> 0:41:55.840
<v Speaker 2>glock on the table. It's amazing. It's like the greatest moment.

0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:58.800
<v Speaker 2>So I get all curious. I'm like, what's the story

0:41:58.800 --> 0:41:59.920
<v Speaker 2>with this Don Senior?

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 2>So I look him up and he had a record too.

0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:03.479
<v Speaker 1>Is he a new Jersey run.

0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah so, but here's his obituary in twenty twelve

0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:13.479
<v Speaker 2>gives amazing bits. Donald the duck Celentre right there, He's

0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:16.960
<v Speaker 2>the duck seventy eight of Trenton. Passed away on Thursday,

0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:20.680
<v Speaker 2>September twenty seventh, twenty twelve, at home. Born in Trenton,

0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Donald was a lifelong Trenton resident. He was a veteran

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.880
<v Speaker 2>of the United States Army. Donald was the owner operator

0:42:27.920 --> 0:42:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of Don's Deli in Trenton, which he opened at the

0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:33.880
<v Speaker 2>age of sixteen years and ran the business for sixty

0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>two years until the time of his death. He enjoyed

0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:37.640
<v Speaker 2>trips to Atlantic City.

0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:38.919
<v Speaker 1>There it is.

0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:40.719
<v Speaker 2>I want a movie about the duck.

0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:43.279
<v Speaker 1>My dad is from Trenton, and I gotta ask him

0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:45.200
<v Speaker 1>if he knows Don's Please do.

0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:49.600
<v Speaker 2>All, please do, because like the dad has a record,

0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.640
<v Speaker 2>son has a record, He's got a gun on the table.

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:54.200
<v Speaker 1>I like the kind of place my pop would know.

0:42:54.360 --> 0:42:57.320
<v Speaker 2>This guy was like a beautiful diamond in the middle

0:42:57.320 --> 0:42:59.600
<v Speaker 2>of this documentary. It's it's a great thing.

0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:05.400
<v Speaker 1>But like the Robe Ready documentary, he looks.

0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Like fresh out of the shower. Great. One of the

0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:11.120
<v Speaker 2>other things that I loved about it like he and

0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:14.160
<v Speaker 2>his son are super tickled that James got one over

0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:17.720
<v Speaker 2>on Princeton. They love it. And then they interview Keith,

0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the friend that you know, the he's just like stoked

0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:24.880
<v Speaker 2>that James scammed in Ivy League college and like not

0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:27.840
<v Speaker 2>some state school, Like, don't embarrass the state school. Stick

0:43:27.880 --> 0:43:31.160
<v Speaker 2>it to them. He's just like Grinnan all over himself.

0:43:31.160 --> 0:43:36.000
<v Speaker 2>And I love punch up. I love the contrast with

0:43:36.080 --> 0:43:39.920
<v Speaker 2>the offended Princeton kids, you know, like everyone else, all

0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:42.440
<v Speaker 2>the working folks, They're like, this is entertaining. He's a

0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:46.000
<v Speaker 2>folk hero. Good for him. So in the following years,

0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:48.760
<v Speaker 2>like James tangled with the law a bunch of times.

0:43:49.440 --> 0:43:53.359
<v Speaker 2>He also participated in the documentary and was interviewed by

0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:57.319
<v Speaker 2>David Samuels for The New Yorker. He's enigmatic in all

0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:01.760
<v Speaker 2>of it, the crimes, the confession. He's always truthful when confronted,

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Like we said, but you get this sense that he's

0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:07.120
<v Speaker 2>just sort of out of step with time and place.

0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:08.480
<v Speaker 1>I was just about to say, he feels like he

0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:10.759
<v Speaker 1>was pulled from a different time and roped here. He said,

0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:11.480
<v Speaker 1>make do.

0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:14.000
<v Speaker 2>He wants to be alone, and he values his privacy.

0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:16.280
<v Speaker 2>He wanted to get like this huge swath of land

0:44:16.440 --> 0:44:20.080
<v Speaker 2>and build a cabin and be self sufficient. And he's

0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>really interesting in the documentary of just like trying to

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:26.440
<v Speaker 2>explain himself, but then he won't. He just kind of

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:29.560
<v Speaker 2>gives these little smirks when he doesn't want to talk

0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:33.600
<v Speaker 2>about stuff. He got busted for living in makeshift shacks

0:44:33.600 --> 0:44:35.520
<v Speaker 2>and aspen because he's still.

0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Kind of like basically doing his cowboy thing right, and

0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:40.400
<v Speaker 1>he goes back to like he can sleep outdoors. He

0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:41.080
<v Speaker 1>can sleep.

0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:46.200
<v Speaker 2>When you take all the like garbage away. He's a

0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:49.520
<v Speaker 2>guy who likes to be outdoors, can sleep outside in

0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:55.719
<v Speaker 2>the ground. Very self sufficient, incredible athlete, and brilliant. The

0:44:55.760 --> 0:45:00.440
<v Speaker 2>guy he's just like acing it everywhere he goes so

0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:04.840
<v Speaker 2>like he no, it's not and he's just out of step,

0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:08.840
<v Speaker 2>like he's just misplaced. So he's living in these makeshift shacks.

0:45:08.840 --> 0:45:12.040
<v Speaker 2>He keeps getting busted like he's stealing bike parts and

0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:14.800
<v Speaker 2>ski equipment other odds and ends, and he becomes this

0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of like bumming criminal figure and Aspen. Over the years,

0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.840
<v Speaker 2>like the cops would show up to these like camouflage

0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:22.960
<v Speaker 2>little lean twos that he'd have in the middle of

0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.280
<v Speaker 2>the woods with like a cord running to an apartment

0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.040
<v Speaker 2>building and he'd jump out a window and they're like, James,

0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:33.640
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of Yeah. The last I could track him

0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:37.200
<v Speaker 2>down was twenty twenty one. He was arrested by Aspen

0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:40.520
<v Speaker 2>police officers investigating a burglary and he got charged with

0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:44.120
<v Speaker 2>parking illegally and stealing power from a nearby apartment building.

0:45:44.840 --> 0:45:47.040
<v Speaker 2>And they didn't take him to jail, like there's such

0:45:47.040 --> 0:45:49.040
<v Speaker 2>a low level thing that they just gave him a

0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:52.080
<v Speaker 2>summons for trespassing and tampering. And I haven't been able

0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>to find anything since. I wish him well, really, I

0:45:56.440 --> 0:45:59.120
<v Speaker 2>do have a question for you, though. Have you ever

0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>thought about what it would be like to go back

0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:03.800
<v Speaker 2>in your life and do things over with the knowledge

0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:04.560
<v Speaker 2>you have now.

0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:06.960
<v Speaker 1>I've been asked that a couple of times, Like it's

0:46:07.000 --> 0:46:08.960
<v Speaker 1>just like a general like get to know your question,

0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:11.360
<v Speaker 1>like hey, would you rather this or rather that? Or

0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.000
<v Speaker 1>like could you imagine? And I've thought about this like

0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:18.279
<v Speaker 1>in earnestness, like I think it wouldn't be as much

0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 1>fun because the part of the discovery process, like the

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.279
<v Speaker 1>first time is so memorable because it's different than all

0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:26.879
<v Speaker 1>the rest and what follows it that I wouldn't want

0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:29.200
<v Speaker 1>to go back and try to like fake a first time.

0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:31.120
<v Speaker 1>It's something, you know what I mean? Like the part

0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:32.960
<v Speaker 1>of the not knowing is part of the magic. So

0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:35.760
<v Speaker 1>if I knew something, I don't think anything would feel

0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:38.840
<v Speaker 1>valuable or real. I don't think it would actually affect

0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.560
<v Speaker 1>me because it's like a marionetted reality, Like I'm controlling

0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:44.200
<v Speaker 1>all the strings, so it's not real and I know it,

0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:47.000
<v Speaker 1>and I can't convince myself that the reaction is real

0:46:47.080 --> 0:46:49.319
<v Speaker 1>if I'm tricking people, like I would be aware of

0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:51.520
<v Speaker 1>the strings even if they're not. So I don't think

0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:54.359
<v Speaker 1>that I could go back in time. You know, if

0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 1>I could turn back time, I got to bring it back,

0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.800
<v Speaker 1>I would not because it wouldn't do much, and I

0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 1>would go to a different time.

0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:04.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh interesting, I would.

0:47:03.960 --> 0:47:06.319
<v Speaker 1>Rather go if you had time travel, Rather than going

0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:08.640
<v Speaker 1>back into my own life and redoing something, or going

0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:11.680
<v Speaker 1>back and pretending to be like a college student or whatever.

0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.640
<v Speaker 1>I'd much rather go and see what like eighteen thirty

0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:18.080
<v Speaker 1>was like you and a certain not in America, but

0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:19.840
<v Speaker 1>in other places. I would like to see. I know

0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:22.640
<v Speaker 1>what it was like in America, But so that's it.

0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:24.320
<v Speaker 1>What about you would you want to go back.

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:26.080
<v Speaker 2>And be yourself? I think about it a lot. Did

0:47:26.080 --> 0:47:28.360
<v Speaker 2>you specifically want to be Yeah, like I could imagine

0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:32.120
<v Speaker 2>like going back to college and not skipping as many classes,

0:47:32.640 --> 0:47:37.000
<v Speaker 2>like actually applying myself sure, and having like a wiser

0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:41.280
<v Speaker 2>outlook on life and people and relationships. Absolutely being savvy

0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:45.000
<v Speaker 2>when originally I was anything but right. So I, you know,

0:47:45.040 --> 0:47:48.120
<v Speaker 2>getting to try things over again, or like seeing things

0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:49.719
<v Speaker 2>with a clearer understanding.

0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:51.040
<v Speaker 1>I do like to do things twice.

0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 2>I'll try anything twice.

0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:54.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean like I liked if I'm going to

0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:56.640
<v Speaker 1>do something, I often enjoy it the second time more

0:47:56.680 --> 0:47:57.120
<v Speaker 1>than the first.

0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you watch TV shows over.

0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:01.319
<v Speaker 1>All sorts of stuff. I go to city. I've lived

0:48:01.320 --> 0:48:03.120
<v Speaker 1>in cities twice. I mean like there's a lot of

0:48:03.160 --> 0:48:05.800
<v Speaker 1>things that I do twice. So I don't mind going

0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:07.960
<v Speaker 1>and trying something again. But it's different, you know what

0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:09.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean. I'm just better at it.

0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I like the notion of being able to rewrite it.

0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:12.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:14.600
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like James got to try that out

0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:16.960
<v Speaker 2>feel really good to do it this way.

0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:18.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to do it that way, and then he

0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:20.040
<v Speaker 1>also got to I mean I wonder if it made

0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:22.799
<v Speaker 1>him feel anything. You know, those students thinking he was cool?

0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:25.080
<v Speaker 2>If you yeah, what what did it feel like standing

0:48:25.120 --> 0:48:27.000
<v Speaker 2>there having the champagne raining down on you?

0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:29.319
<v Speaker 1>I think that one probably did feel good because it's

0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:31.680
<v Speaker 1>such a like a culmination of his own things. But

0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:34.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying is the people he tricked. I know that

0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:36.480
<v Speaker 1>essentially he tricked them to get in, but I mean, like,

0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:39.239
<v Speaker 1>I think he would feel like not that he'd earned it,

0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.840
<v Speaker 1>but then he was special and that they're recognizing that

0:48:42.120 --> 0:48:45.560
<v Speaker 1>when he's actually conning people. I wonder if it felt anything.

0:48:45.640 --> 0:48:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It'd be interesting to find out.

0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:48.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think we.

0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Ever will, No, not unless we can find him.

0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Dave, I need to talk back.

0:48:55.760 --> 0:49:03.320
<v Speaker 5>Oh God, I went get.

0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:09.480
<v Speaker 4>Hi Sarn, Elizabeth, producer Dye, and the interns who may

0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:13.160
<v Speaker 4>or may not be dogs. I was listening to the

0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:15.680
<v Speaker 4>episode with a side of chow chow the kidnapping of

0:49:15.719 --> 0:49:18.440
<v Speaker 4>Elton B. Stevens Junior this morning, and I had to

0:49:18.520 --> 0:49:20.799
<v Speaker 4>laugh because my husband and I have a running joke

0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:23.480
<v Speaker 4>about the Curse of Oak Island that every episode is

0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.759
<v Speaker 4>the same, So whenever we see a preview or airing

0:49:26.840 --> 0:49:29.919
<v Speaker 4>this Friday episode with clips I'll be like, I've seen

0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:32.560
<v Speaker 4>that already because every episode is the same, and I

0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:33.600
<v Speaker 4>think that's really.

0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:40.960
<v Speaker 1>You feel me? Are that shows?

0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:45.799
<v Speaker 2>And with that we shall end things. You can find

0:49:45.840 --> 0:49:49.359
<v Speaker 2>us online at Ridiculous Crime dot com. Did you know

0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:53.480
<v Speaker 2>that with every click of the mouse we plant a tree?

0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:56.799
<v Speaker 3>I did not know that us in magical for us,

0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:57.400
<v Speaker 3>that's awesome.

0:49:57.520 --> 0:50:00.320
<v Speaker 2>Every time someone clicks the mouse on Ridiculous time.

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Dot com an actual physical mouse.

0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:04.279
<v Speaker 2>There's a mouse that runs around and you have to

0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:08.319
<v Speaker 2>try and find me with your mouse. Yeah. We're also

0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:13.080
<v Speaker 2>at Ridiculous Crime on both bluesky and Instagram Bluski and

0:50:13.120 --> 0:50:16.000
<v Speaker 2>you can email us at Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,

0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:20.120
<v Speaker 2>uh producer Dave, and then also leave us a talkback

0:50:20.160 --> 0:50:22.880
<v Speaker 2>on the iHeart app. I love those. You have no

0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:31.680
<v Speaker 2>idea how much I love these talkbacks reach out. Ridiculous

0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced

0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and edited by President of Princeton University Dave Kusten, starring

0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Annals Rutger as Judath. Research is by Professor of Coolness

0:50:43.840 --> 0:50:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Mursa Brown and Writing Center Assistant Alex French. The theme

0:50:47.760 --> 0:50:51.239
<v Speaker 2>song is by Princeton University track team Sockboys Thomas Lee

0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:54.759
<v Speaker 2>and Travis Dutt. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five

0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:58.520
<v Speaker 2>hundred guest here and makeup by Sparkleshot and mister Andre.

0:50:59.239 --> 0:51:02.600
<v Speaker 2>Executive produce this our philosopher Goat Wrangler Ben Bollen and

0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:05.040
<v Speaker 2>Ashram chemistry tutor Noel Brown.

0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:16.080
<v Speaker 4>Ridicous Crime, Say It One More Time Ridiquious Crime.

0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:20.440
<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts.

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