Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Zaren.
Speaker 3: Girl Nothing Much.
Speaker 2: Listen. I was wondering if you knew what was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I was so hoping you would ask me that, because
Speaker 1: I do you got a new dog? Yes, they did
Speaker 1: a Bernie's mountainn a doodle. But it's part Bernie's Mountain Dog.
Speaker 2: Part it's a half Bernie's Mountain Dog, half poodle.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now do you know what you now have with
Speaker 1: Frank Ocean?
Speaker 2: Does Frank Ocean have a burn A Doodle?
Speaker 1: Not only does he have a Burna doodle, he has
Speaker 1: a Bernie's Mountain Dog. He has half of what you have,
Speaker 1: but he also he named his dog Everest. Here's what
Speaker 1: the dog looks like, right, And here he is in
Speaker 1: the studio with his dog, right. Because the reason why
Speaker 1: this dog is so important is Everest to him is
Speaker 1: that he named the dog an executive producer on his
Speaker 1: album Channel Orange. Okay, and that one the Graand so
Speaker 1: his dog is the only dog ever to win Grammy.
Speaker 1: I think the only dog ever to win a Grammy period.
Speaker 1: But there you go that you now have a common
Speaker 1: thing with You can tell people my dog is much
Speaker 1: like the Grammy Award winning Everest, which is you know
Speaker 1: of the Frank Ocean family.
Speaker 2: Ros and then and then I've got Monty. Oh that's right,
Speaker 2: I'm running with two now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're running deep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm back in my correct place.
Speaker 1: There you are. It seems like your energies are sorted.
Speaker 2: Rosie is a handful.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I notice all like the bitten clothing and stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, oh yeah, there's interns.
Speaker 2: Now that is that is ridiculous, right? You know what
Speaker 2: else is ridiculous?
Speaker 1: No, but I think you can tell.
Speaker 2: Me Criming for the love of running. This is ridiculous
Speaker 2: crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers. Heis cons
Speaker 2: It's always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred
Speaker 2: percent ridiculous.
Speaker 1: You damn right.
Speaker 2: You. You mentioned recently that you don't like jogging, so
Speaker 2: you're not a runner.
Speaker 1: Uh No. I will run in two instances, if there's
Speaker 1: a ball or a gun.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a good rule.
Speaker 1: Yeah, both of those times I will run happily.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 1: So, but if there's no ball, no gun, probably not running.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I've never been one for running. In my
Speaker 2: former life, I was relatively athletic like, I played a
Speaker 2: lot of sports when I was younger, but I always
Speaker 2: hated running always.
Speaker 1: I don't like jogging. I like sprinting, like I can,
Speaker 1: you can't walking.
Speaker 2: I love walking. I do what I wish I were
Speaker 2: in the running ambling. I love strolling. For people who
Speaker 2: love to run, like it gives them a high, they're
Speaker 2: into it, and they start to feel off when they don't.
Speaker 1: Run, like because their body gets regulated by.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I envy that. And there's also yeah, it doesn't
Speaker 3: seem like something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just no way there's I am built for comfort,
Speaker 2: not speed, so there's no way I'm running, right, but
Speaker 2: I wish I could. There's the solitary nature of like
Speaker 2: the long distance runner. Oh yeah, I like solitary activity.
Speaker 1: This is true. This is very true.
Speaker 2: And like that running must be very therapeutic and contemplative
Speaker 2: like zen Like, yeah, so.
Speaker 1: It's cross country skiing or yeah, there's non impactful right.
Speaker 2: So for kids coming up who run, the accomplishment outside
Speaker 2: of the running itself is to like run in college,
Speaker 2: get a scholarship or something, and the top of the
Speaker 2: pile is the Olympics. Oh yeah, right, But it's not
Speaker 2: like football or baseball or basketball with profession in the leagues.
Speaker 1: No, pretty much. You go to Penn Nationals, then you
Speaker 1: go to the Olympics and you're adult.
Speaker 2: That's it. But then you ex exactly. But like those
Speaker 2: sports though, like the you know, professional league sports, there
Speaker 2: are phenoms in running. Yes, they're just gifted and they
Speaker 2: have to do it. Born runners. Yes, I want to
Speaker 2: tell you about a born runner, babe. He was born
Speaker 2: to run. He's a fascinating character. His name is James Hogue.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the same, time's familiar.
Speaker 2: Good Midwestern boy.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: He was born October twenty second, nineteen fifty nine in
Speaker 2: Kansas City, Kansas. Ah. So it's not the same as
Speaker 2: Kansas City, Missouri. The President may not know the difference,
Speaker 2: but it is an important difference. It is Kansas City, Missouri,
Speaker 2: very large city. Half a million people live there, home
Speaker 2: to your chiefs.
Speaker 1: Yes, not my chiefs, but the chiefs.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 2: One hundred and fifty thousand people live in Kansas City, Kansas.
Speaker 1: And are they separated by anything the river?
Speaker 2: Right, I think, yeah, so wyan Dot County, Kansas. I
Speaker 2: think like GM plants and associated warehouse and so it's
Speaker 2: a lot of working class folks and the Hogues working
Speaker 2: class family. I think his dad worked for like the
Speaker 2: railroad or something. So James normal kid, except for the
Speaker 2: fact that he was fast.
Speaker 3: He was a great run, super fast James.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's fleet footed, excellent stamina. Like this guy could
Speaker 2: just run for long distance.
Speaker 1: Oh so he's both fast and cross country distance.
Speaker 2: Right, okay, and he's just a quiet dude, you know. Like,
Speaker 2: so he ran track in high school. Of course, he
Speaker 2: was state champion in a two mile run and his
Speaker 2: name is still on a plaque in the wall at
Speaker 2: Washington High School.
Speaker 1: Good for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he graduated in nineteen seventy seven and he
Speaker 2: goes off to college at the University of Wyoming now
Speaker 2: University of Wyoming track program. Super interesting.
Speaker 1: And also he's coming along right when running is becoming
Speaker 1: a realty exactly.
Speaker 2: So the big dogs in running at the time were
Speaker 2: the University of Texas at i'll Passo and the University
Speaker 2: of Oregon are the two ones, and so they dominated
Speaker 2: all the running, and they sent a lot of athletes
Speaker 2: to the Olympics, and so they battled it out constantly
Speaker 2: for the top spot in the NCAA rankings, and the
Speaker 2: head coach at the University of Wyoming. Ron Richardson. He
Speaker 2: was brought in to shake up the program. He wanted
Speaker 2: to rival those colleges and take some titles. Go ahead,
Speaker 2: send some runners to go for the gold. So James
Speaker 2: he got to the school at the same time as
Speaker 2: this new coach did, and James he could be part
Speaker 2: of this new exciting program and it was brutal. Training
Speaker 2: was nuts. James was all about it right. So here's
Speaker 2: a description from the New Yorker quote. Members of the
Speaker 2: Wyoming team that year describe Richardson as a cold, distant
Speaker 2: figure who met with his athletes underneath the bleachers of
Speaker 2: the university's indoor track in a small, cramped office where
Speaker 2: he kept a dog eared copy of a book about
Speaker 2: the management techniques of Jengis Khan. As the skies grew
Speaker 2: dark and the temperature dropped, Richardson would push his runners
Speaker 2: through thirty two two hundred and twenty meters sprints wow,
Speaker 2: followed by sixteen quarter miles and eight half mile.
Speaker 1: Runs sixteen quarter miles miles.
Speaker 2: Then eight half mile. Having read that sprinters would retain
Speaker 2: muscle memory when they ran faster than they were ordinarily
Speaker 2: able to do, he also developed a unique system for
Speaker 2: training his distance runners. He would tie a rope to
Speaker 2: a tumbling belt around the runner's waist and tow the
Speaker 2: runner up and down the high altitude trails, holding the
Speaker 2: other end of the rope as he drove his Volkswagon bug.
Speaker 2: When his runners lost a meat at Brigham Young University,
Speaker 2: he picked them up early the next morning, dropped them
Speaker 2: off seventeen miles from Laramie, and told him to run home.
Speaker 2: What yeah, so the sky no nonsense? Like nuts? He
Speaker 2: wanted a team of winners, yes, and so to help
Speaker 2: do that beyond this training regimen.
Speaker 1: The pulling the Volkswagen is nuts.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there are pictures of it. He figured. You
Speaker 2: know what, I'm going to import some runners? Yeah, enter
Speaker 2: the Kenyans. Oh, of course, Kenyans dominate distance running for
Speaker 2: whatever reasons. Kenyons are amazing, And I'm sure there are
Speaker 2: Kenyans like me who say God bless and good job
Speaker 2: to the runners and are not so inclined themselves. But
Speaker 2: those who do run are disproportionately amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't tell me about the oxygenation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, So all these Kenyons showed up on scholarship
Speaker 2: in Wyoming. I think they're like four and they were
Speaker 2: they were like twenty eight years old. So in Wyoming,
Speaker 2: this is not an organic track de part no no.
Speaker 2: So they locked in immediately.
Speaker 3: To the getting food to eat.
Speaker 2: Wyoming goodness. So they were all about this punishing training regime.
Speaker 2: Like some of them would put heavy boots on and
Speaker 2: run in the snow to like keep you know, and
Speaker 2: the rest of the team they're struggling, James is keeping
Speaker 2: up the coaches. Gambit paid off. So November of nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy seven, University of Wyoming's cross country team finished third
Speaker 2: in the country behind Oregon. Yeah, so James, he had
Speaker 2: this friend from back home, Keith Mark, and he was
Speaker 2: one of them two first namers. So Keith he'd been
Speaker 2: a runner two, but not as talented or driven as James,
Speaker 2: but the two like stayed in touch. After James went
Speaker 2: off to college. James would write in letters about what
Speaker 2: it was like and how grueling the training was, but
Speaker 2: he never had any complaints, just like arrow Focus. His
Speaker 2: sophomore year, James had Keith come to visit, and Keith
Speaker 2: saw a bunch of car stereos and bike frames and
Speaker 2: James's apartment. Yeah, he's like red flag, Like, where did
Speaker 2: you get all this stuff? James? He later went to
Speaker 2: visit Keith back at home and James leaves the house.
Speaker 2: Keith looks around and sees that one of his track
Speaker 2: medals is missing and it was for an event that
Speaker 2: James had never won. So he calls James. James is like, no,
Speaker 2: I didn't take it. But then later calls Keith back
Speaker 2: and he's like, yeah, my mom found your metal outside
Speaker 2: or something. That was pretty much the last time they talked.
Speaker 1: So ye, friendship over.
Speaker 2: So, like all this stuff happened in college, Like he
Speaker 2: was working in collecting butterflies for some professor and like
Speaker 2: got all in this inclement weather and like had these
Speaker 2: moments where it was just you know, transformative for him. Okay,
Speaker 2: so he's different at this point. He's not like taking drugs.
Speaker 1: Wait you say transformative, He's different. So he went out
Speaker 1: on like a butterfly hunting expedition.
Speaker 2: And there's a crazy storm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he bare almost died, and yeah.
Speaker 2: Keith was there. They almost died and it was just
Speaker 2: like nuts and he thinks that that was like the
Speaker 2: moment where everything kind of changed with James. But James
Speaker 2: when they asked him He's like, this wasn't a big
Speaker 2: deal butterflies, Yeah, exactly. So shortly after this, James drops
Speaker 2: out of school at Wyoming and he moves to Texas
Speaker 2: and he goes to community college there, and then he
Speaker 2: transferred to University of Texas at Austin and he was
Speaker 2: he was about to graduate, but then he ran out
Speaker 2: of money so he left. And then he got busted
Speaker 2: in Austin for theft from a bicycle shop. He loves bike,
Speaker 2: stealing bike stuff. Oh yeah. He bounced out to Colorado
Speaker 2: after that. There's a lot of missing time.
Speaker 1: That his story is hard to figure out.
Speaker 2: And it's for us to track, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: know what he was up to. He was in California
Speaker 2: for a while. He's bumming around getting odd jobs, stealing
Speaker 2: stuff here and there. And then he shows up again,
Speaker 2: this time in Palo Alto, California. Hey, and this time,
Speaker 2: twenty five year old James was suddenly sixteen year old
Speaker 2: orphan Jay Mitchell Huntsman.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's six.
Speaker 1: He can pass for sixteen.
Speaker 2: He's kind of a slight guy.
Speaker 1: He said. He was like a long distance runner. I'm
Speaker 1: imagining him kind of fine bombing.
Speaker 2: Doctor, really tall, Palo Alto is my dad's hometown, by
Speaker 2: the way, really and Jay Huntsman he wanted to go
Speaker 2: this orphan Jay Huntsman, he wanted to go to my
Speaker 2: dad's alma mater, Palo Alto High School, affectionately known as
Speaker 2: Palli Pal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, was that weird for you? Pop up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was weird like Palli. Oh, So who was
Speaker 2: the real Jay Huntsman?
Speaker 1: Who is the real Jays?
Speaker 2: Great question? He did exist with the birthday that James provided.
Speaker 2: So it seems that James combed newspaper articles from around
Speaker 2: the time he wanted to have been born, and he
Speaker 2: found an o bit for a newborn who passed away
Speaker 2: from pneumonia. Whoa boom, new identity. So here's how it
Speaker 2: all goes down, right, James. He goes up to the
Speaker 2: Stanford cross country coach and tells him, I'm a sixteen
Speaker 2: year old orphan, you know, he said, I was born
Speaker 2: in San Diego nineteen sixty nine. When I was eight,
Speaker 2: me and my family we moved to this Ananda ashrom
Speaker 2: in Nevada.
Speaker 3: Whoa yeah, he says.
Speaker 2: He's like self taught. He did all his learning on
Speaker 2: his own, he said. When he wasn't working in the
Speaker 2: asheron he ran fifty to sixty miles a week, so.
Speaker 1: This explains why he has no transcripts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then his parents died in the car accident
Speaker 2: in Bolivia even and then he sets his sights on
Speaker 2: attending Stanford, and he figured Palo Alto High was the
Speaker 2: place to get started on that. So the coach at
Speaker 2: Stanford's like, yeah, go register with the school district. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure how you showed up here, but okay. So
Speaker 2: James he gets provisionally accepted into the Palo Alto Unified
Speaker 2: School district and they send him to Pali. Now there
Speaker 2: are other high school There's Gun, you know, other high school's,
Speaker 2: but now he goes to Pali and then he unofficially
Speaker 2: joins the cross country team. Unofficially, well, they're like for
Speaker 2: the paperwork to come through, so they can't like he's
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to have him send
Speaker 2: out my birth certifigin. I'm going to have him send.
Speaker 1: Out I was wondering what paperwork.
Speaker 2: School everyone, But in the meantime they're like, yeah, whatever,
Speaker 2: come to school. We don't want you, you know, being
Speaker 2: in delinquent. Everyone really liked him. His class and his team.
Speaker 2: They're fascinated by his story and they couldn't get over
Speaker 2: his race times, like they're incredible. But don't forget this
Speaker 2: guy was like a runner at University of Wyoming and
Speaker 2: now he's like, oh yeah, he's a twenty five year
Speaker 2: old former collegiate runner. So he did well in school
Speaker 2: at Wyoming, right, so it should also come as no
Speaker 2: surprise that he was acing things at Pally. His English
Speaker 2: teacher thought that he looked a little older than his peers.
Speaker 2: Quote as a teacher, it was rude for me to
Speaker 2: even think that he was older, even though he was
Speaker 2: very thin and you could see the shadow of his beard.
Speaker 1: He had these crows feet eyes exactly.
Speaker 2: So then came the Stanford Cross Country Invitational October seventh,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five. So remember, James, he was not officially
Speaker 2: a member of the team. He'd only been there a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks, and he'd only been accepted into the
Speaker 2: school district provisionally. As I said, so I'm assuming you
Speaker 2: know he's they're still waiting good luck. But James, uh,
Speaker 2: the coach was like, you know what, you can still run,
Speaker 2: go out there, just don't cross the finish line. It's
Speaker 2: like auditing a class.
Speaker 1: Weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he puts a Pali jersey. I guess he puts
Speaker 2: a Pali jersey on inside out and he takes off,
Speaker 2: and I guess they're figuring, like, you know, just run
Speaker 2: with and like get a sense of it. No, he
Speaker 2: goes out there and just dominates, and he just dusts everybody,
Speaker 2: and he's like about to win the race, like way
Speaker 2: ahead of everybody, and then he suddenly veers off and
Speaker 2: leaves the course like he didn't understand what it meant,
Speaker 2: like cross, go, but don't cross. It's just like stay
Speaker 2: with the pack, right Instead, he just like blasts off.
Speaker 2: Everyone's totally puzzled by this. There just just happened.
Speaker 1: Pulls off like he stolen NASCAR gut.
Speaker 2: And then so there was a reporter there from a
Speaker 2: local paper, Jason Cole with the Peninsula Times Tribune. He
Speaker 2: thought the whole thing was super weird. So he starts
Speaker 2: like calling around, like who is this kid? He gets
Speaker 2: the mystery kids IDENTI and backstory from the school district,
Speaker 2: and then it raised more questions than answers for him.
Speaker 2: He's like, this is nuts, and I'm guessing that the
Speaker 2: reporter went looking for information about the parents car accident
Speaker 2: or something. It's like going through microfiche. Remember it's like
Speaker 2: eighty five. But he comes across the same story about
Speaker 2: the real Jay Huntsman. The dates matched up, and so
Speaker 2: Cole the reporter tells the school district what he found,
Speaker 2: and then he wrote an expose in the paper. Yes,
Speaker 2: and the district confronted James is this true? He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what's your real name? James Hogue? And then he tells
Speaker 2: him the truth. They're freaked out and he blows town.
Speaker 2: He leaves before anything can happen. Let's stop here for
Speaker 2: a second, take a breathere, get some electrolytes, mellow out.
Speaker 2: When we come back, we're going to see what James
Speaker 2: got up to next.
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, Zaren yo, Darren.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I had to do a couple of laughs, real quick, good, good,
Speaker 1: Get out of my system. I always talk of running.
Speaker 1: Get me fired. You know, I was on a track team,
Speaker 1: so you know where you a bunch of times?
Speaker 2: What did you do?
Speaker 1: Hurdles? Long jump? I also a relay four by four relay.
Speaker 2: You're saying you don't you only run if it's a
Speaker 2: ball or gun.
Speaker 1: Well, there there's a starting pistol.
Speaker 2: I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, but normally it's a yeah, like I'm going
Speaker 1: to shoot you gun.
Speaker 2: But you're a fast runner.
Speaker 1: I was fastest.
Speaker 2: I can imagine that.
Speaker 1: It was the fastest person on my football team.
Speaker 2: Nice, good for you.
Speaker 3: So I broke both knees old true star OUCHI ouch.
Speaker 2: So it was nineteen eighty five and James Hog in
Speaker 2: knees intact, tries to pass himself off as a sixteen
Speaker 2: year old cross country running prodigy.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 2: He gets found out, skips town night. He turns up
Speaker 2: again a few years later.
Speaker 1: In Utah in another high school.
Speaker 2: No, he's in Saint George, Utah, and he's stealing bike frames,
Speaker 2: of course, living out of a storage space. He had
Speaker 2: stolen really expensive ones from California and that's what he's
Speaker 2: gotten his storage space. Yeah, and he was I think
Speaker 2: he was selling.
Speaker 1: Some of those canon kept. Yeah, you're living on the streets.
Speaker 2: So he's in this storage space. He's living there, he's
Speaker 2: got all the bike frames, but he's also doing research
Speaker 2: about getting into an ivy League college.
Speaker 1: How was he doing libraries?
Speaker 2: I imagine, Yeah, he just hung out the library all
Speaker 2: the time. He took the essayts and then he wrote
Speaker 2: these like absolutely incredible application essays. He invented an even
Speaker 2: more incredible backstory. So it's better than the truth that
Speaker 2: he was a twenty eight year old from Kansas with
Speaker 2: a penchant for lifting things that were in his and
Speaker 2: then even better than the sixteen year old former Ashram
Speaker 2: Living kid who became an orphan things to the dangerous
Speaker 2: highways of Bolivia. He's like, no, I'm shooting for the
Speaker 2: moon on this one. I'm going all the way. He
Speaker 2: became Alexi Induris Santana.
Speaker 1: Wow, and listen, that's a hell of a name.
Speaker 2: Boy, Howdy did he craft the most amazing bio for
Speaker 2: this kid. So Alexi Santana was homeschooled and then self taught,
Speaker 2: just like Jay Huntsman. He lived in Switzerland, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Morocco,
Speaker 2: and all over the American West. Yes, he later told
Speaker 2: a reporter for The Trent Times quote, It's not that unusual,
Speaker 2: at least not when I was young in California, I
Speaker 2: went to nursery school in kindergarten, and then my parents
Speaker 2: decided they'd teach me at home. You have to set
Speaker 2: up a private school. I learned to read early and
Speaker 2: always had a lot of books. Some days I'd read
Speaker 2: from the morning tonight. I learned some French and Italian.
Speaker 2: I never have had a TV, but I listened to
Speaker 2: a lot of music. I'd go to librarians and they'd
Speaker 2: help me find the books I needed.
Speaker 1: Well, you know it sounds convinced like that. You're like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: look at you. You auto died act working with librarians
Speaker 1: and in the catalog of expand your mind.
Speaker 2: You're fascinating. His dad's dead, he says. His mom, he said,
Speaker 2: was an artist living in Switzerland.
Speaker 1: He does like the flip on Disney instead of like
Speaker 1: dead mom, it's dead.
Speaker 2: Dad dad mom artist in Switzerland. He said. He taught
Speaker 2: himself to run in the Mojave Desert, he said. He
Speaker 2: said he was currently you're gonna I cannot wait for you.
Speaker 2: He said he was currently a ranch hand in Arizona
Speaker 2: and Utah top hand on He's moving cattle and sheep
Speaker 2: in a canyon called Little Purgatory. He said he hadn't
Speaker 2: slept inside in ten years, and then he read. He
Speaker 2: read Plato under the Stars. He only had his horse,
Speaker 2: the livestock, and his radio to keep them company. He
Speaker 2: made up a letter of recommendation from the imaginary owner
Speaker 2: of the imaginary ranch he imaginarily lived in, oh He
Speaker 2: creates a story that no one could resist, and he
Speaker 2: used it to get into Princeton. So he made a
Speaker 2: visit to the campus after getting accepted. It's spring and
Speaker 2: he's set to start in the falls. They're offering him
Speaker 2: a full scholarship. Naturally, he went and he met with
Speaker 2: people who charmed everyone with his tases, like huck Finn
Speaker 2: Existence and Huck Finn. That's the thing is, that's what
Speaker 2: the folks at the admissions office thought they would It
Speaker 2: would be an ideal candidate when asked, Yeah, aside from
Speaker 2: legacy students and the children of the wealthy. So meanwhile,
Speaker 2: back in Saint George, Utah, things are developing. Some very
Speaker 2: expensive stolen bicycle frames and parts had been traced to
Speaker 2: James's storage unit, and the cops got a warrant and
Speaker 2: they searched it, finding all the hot merch. They also
Speaker 2: found his applications to and correspondence with a bunch of
Speaker 2: elite universities. They found an acceptance letter to Stanford under
Speaker 2: the Alexi Santana name. Letters from other colleges doctored up
Speaker 2: newspaper clippings about the amazing running skills of Alexi Santana
Speaker 2: and then the materials that tied to James Hog the
Speaker 2: actual guy. So while the police were in the unit,
Speaker 2: James showed up and was arrested immediately.
Speaker 1: Oh he actually showed him and walked right seem and no,
Speaker 1: he walked Oh, held up out of there.
Speaker 2: He's just like, oh, oh, you're in here. The detectives
Speaker 2: were super creeped out by the alter ego that they
Speaker 2: stumbled on. Well, they're like, he you know, you're acting
Speaker 2: like you're this eighteen year old kid, and you have
Speaker 2: all these materials that you're pretending to be eighteen. You're
Speaker 2: twenty eight. And so while James is in custody, they
Speaker 2: called some of the colleges from the letters and they
Speaker 2: let them know that Alexi Santana was actually a twenty
Speaker 2: eight year old.
Speaker 1: Thief party poopers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so James, he pleads guilty to the thefts and he
Speaker 2: gets one to five years.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I guess he wouldn't get enrollment anyway because
Speaker 1: he's get you.
Speaker 2: Well, there's actually a story in the April seventeenth, nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty eight, Santa Is Mercury News about the theft and arrest,
Speaker 2: Great Newspapers, and it says that the police also quote
Speaker 2: found evidence that Hogue, using the name Alexi Santana, was
Speaker 2: corresponding with Ivy League universities about athletic scholarships. So it's
Speaker 2: in the paper, but none of that news reached Princeton,
Speaker 2: and the detectives didn't call all of the colleges. They
Speaker 2: didn't call Princeceton, so they don't know what's going on.
Speaker 3: Its pre Internet, you know, definitely.
Speaker 2: So James he had to figure out how to work this.
Speaker 2: How do you do your time and also go to Princeton.
Speaker 1: Okay, remember you gave me a ride like a year
Speaker 1: three years ago.
Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't going to let jail get in the
Speaker 2: way of his dream. So while awaiting his move to prison,
Speaker 2: he got in touch with Princeton admissions office and he
Speaker 2: asked for a deferment of acceptance. Smart so he told
Speaker 2: him that his mother in Switzerland was very sick, dying
Speaker 2: of cancer. He had to go take care of her.
Speaker 2: Princeton's like, of course, we will be here for you
Speaker 2: next year.
Speaker 1: He has to go and take care of your mind.
Speaker 2: Like James knew he wasn't going to do a whole
Speaker 2: year inside and he was right. So he gets out
Speaker 2: and then he makes his way to New Jersey to
Speaker 2: become a Princeton man. So he shows up a few
Speaker 2: weeks before our classes started to train with the track
Speaker 2: team and go through the orientation process. He meets his
Speaker 2: roommates in the dorms, one of whom was from Palo
Speaker 2: Alto but apparently didn't recognize him. Wow, yeah, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: he went to another high school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally me. He could be also from East Palo
Speaker 1: out there or something where he's like different culture.
Speaker 2: He could have gone to one of the other publics.
Speaker 2: He could have gone to a private Embellerman or any
Speaker 2: of these others. Gone up to the city to like
Speaker 2: Saint Ignatius s I. Anyway, so he had he's he's
Speaker 2: got a roommate in this unit of four guys from
Speaker 2: Palo Alto. So at Moven, you know, James shows up.
Speaker 2: He's got a bunch of books and CDs. He has
Speaker 2: this photo of a skier doing like a sweet juicy
Speaker 2: fruit move through some powder that he puts up on
Speaker 2: his wall, and he has a Mexican blanket and he
Speaker 2: slept on the floor of the room, so like the
Speaker 2: bed was always made, he just slept on the floor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm a cowhan, I'm a ranch hand, I'm a cowboy. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: I only eat beans to soft from exactly. So in
Speaker 2: the first weeks of class, his roommate like because they
Speaker 2: have like a unit of four, but then it's like
Speaker 2: two to a room. His roommate got hit and killed
Speaker 2: by a truck. Yeah, James was like sad, everyone's all upside,
Speaker 2: but he was kind of stoked because he got private
Speaker 2: room all to himself. They didn't put anyone in there,
Speaker 2: and he's just had a little campfire gun play in
Speaker 2: the harmonica all day.
Speaker 1: Uh, he go in there, gets real lonesome real quick.
Speaker 2: But like he just became a regular Princeton student. He
Speaker 2: went to class. He got phenomenal grades. He was taking
Speaker 2: six or seven courses each semester, which is yeah, he
Speaker 2: got almost all a's in everything. He ran for the
Speaker 2: track team. You know, he starts making friends. He's genial,
Speaker 2: but he didn't ever like expound on anything, kept everything
Speaker 2: really surface.
Speaker 1: Also, I mean he's doing track practice, studying a lot
Speaker 1: he's spending a lot of his time alone.
Speaker 2: How he wouldn't have to expound on him exactly well,
Speaker 2: when he would talk to people, like he would look
Speaker 2: at the ground all the time and he would only
Speaker 2: say like a sentence orch So people asked him about
Speaker 2: that skiing photo, like do you ski? He's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: is that you in the picture? He's like, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: how did someone get that shot? I was doing stunts.
Speaker 2: They're like stunts, yeah, for a movie. And then he
Speaker 2: just changes the subject, goes on and so everyone's completely
Speaker 2: fascinated by him.
Speaker 3: Interesting is yeah.
Speaker 2: There's this documentary about him called con Man. It is
Speaker 2: really really good. It's not a long feature.
Speaker 1: It' second.
Speaker 2: Ever, as I was watching it, I realized that James
Speaker 2: was giving everyone exactly what they wanted. The school wanted
Speaker 2: a few interesting students to show how broad their population is.
Speaker 2: Not too many interesting students, but you know, exceptional one
Speaker 2: with incredible stories. He's going to enrich their legend.
Speaker 1: Yes, bootstrap students.
Speaker 2: And he provided almost the same for the students because
Speaker 2: they all loved that they had this interesting character there
Speaker 2: for their like Princeton experience. It made him feel special
Speaker 2: to have this creature among them, and they got to
Speaker 2: feel exceptional by association, Like, look at all the interesting
Speaker 2: people I met in college, all the cool people at Princeton.
Speaker 2: So they're thinking like, yeah, this is this elite environment
Speaker 2: where I'm sitting between like the kid of a senator
Speaker 2: and a genius cow poke, you know. So his presencemates, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: and he's this great runner. So he brings his talents
Speaker 2: to the athletic program and not as some sort of
Speaker 2: brute but with like the elegance and elevated intellect of
Speaker 2: a long distance runner, a runner philosopher, and a cowboy hat.
Speaker 1: He just sounds itself.
Speaker 2: There it is. They have these things called eating clubs
Speaker 2: at Princeton yea, So they're private clubs. Is not part
Speaker 2: of the university, and it's like a dining hall meets
Speaker 2: social house. Almost all of the undergraduate upperclassmen join one,
Speaker 2: and some are more exclusive than others. So each club
Speaker 2: is located in its own mansion on this street Prospect Avenue,
Speaker 2: and there are eleven eating clubs in total, so six
Speaker 2: of them Cannon Club, Cap and Gown, Princeton Tower, the
Speaker 2: Ivy Club, Tiger Inn, and University Cottage Club. Those picked
Speaker 2: their members through a process called bicker, and it's kind
Speaker 2: of like rush I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the members picked the next year's members.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very competitive, yeah, exactly. And the other five
Speaker 2: are just like a lottery system. It's such a big deal.
Speaker 2: So one of the most exclusive of the exclusive ones
Speaker 2: is the Ivy Club, and James got tapped for that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Another student remembered it, telling the New Yorker quote, two
Speaker 2: guys came in and I guess tapped him, and they
Speaker 2: rushed him out into the courtyard and poured champagne over
Speaker 2: his head. And he was obviously very excited. And I
Speaker 2: remember being struck that it was kind of a funny
Speaker 2: thing because he didn't really fit the stereotype of someone
Speaker 2: who would be in an IVY. Yeah. So James, he's
Speaker 2: this oddity for everyone, this character that gives them amusement.
Speaker 2: But there he is, soaking it all up. He's living
Speaker 2: this amazing new life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, philosopher cowboy with champagne all over it.
Speaker 2: Right, reveling in the excitement, the character he's created for himself.
Speaker 2: Like everyone benefits from this.
Speaker 1: He's got a prolonged adolescence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, think about it. Put yourself in his Imagine your
Speaker 2: James and like there's champagne raining down on you.
Speaker 1: You're being invited to the most exclusive.
Speaker 2: Kyle and all the things you've done in your life
Speaker 2: and then now you get to be this new character.
Speaker 2: So but back to running track. Aw So he got
Speaker 2: to college in the fall of eighty nine. By the
Speaker 2: spring of nineteen ninety one, he was like fully ensconced
Speaker 2: in the institution like classroom to track everything. And then
Speaker 2: something happened. On February sixteenth, nineteen ninety one, James participated
Speaker 2: in the Harvard Yale Princeton track meet in New Haven, Connecticut.
Speaker 2: Everything's going well. All the Ivy League swells are running
Speaker 2: around like congratulating each other and wearing their j crew whatever. Yes,
Speaker 2: one of the students at.
Speaker 1: The picture them in raccoon hats and fur coats, super preppy. Oh,
Speaker 1: I know you're correct.
Speaker 2: I just want to put rugby shirts, the striped.
Speaker 1: Rugby shirts and the sweaters and the buffy and chadlock.
Speaker 2: So one of the students at the meat was a
Speaker 2: senior at Yale, Renee Pacheco, and she was there to
Speaker 2: watch a friend of hers compete. Something interesting about Renee
Speaker 2: is that she is an alum of none other than
Speaker 2: Palli Palo Alto High School. She got a good memory. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So she looks over and she sees one of the
Speaker 2: Princeton team members. He looks familiar. They lock eyes and
Speaker 2: she knew. She's like, that's j Mitchell Huntsman, International boy
Speaker 2: of Mystery.
Speaker 3: Like she knew, so she goes up to also know
Speaker 3: they both have them.
Speaker 2: She goes up to talk to him and he's like,
Speaker 2: doesn't recognize her. She's like, oh, remember me, what's up? Jay?
Speaker 1: And he's like, that's the thing when you're the more
Speaker 1: interesting person, is that you're going to be more memorable.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. He he doesn't recognize her. She's flummoxed. So
Speaker 2: she she goes home and she calls that Palo Alto
Speaker 2: reporter Jason Cole. Oh wow, busted James the first time.
Speaker 2: She is a little snitch, is what she is?
Speaker 1: Well, no, but she's like a detective with the.
Speaker 2: Whole Yeah the rene mind your own business. Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: not hurting anybody. So Cole, the reporter, he turns around
Speaker 2: and calls Princeton. He's like, you know what, Alexi Santana
Speaker 2: is actually James Hoag and he's done this before and
Speaker 2: Prince is like according to the New Yorker quote. Justin Harmon,
Speaker 2: the director of Communications at Princeton, was grateful for the warning.
Speaker 2: A meeting was immediately convened with the Dean of Admissions,
Speaker 2: Fred Harganau and the Dean of the College. Santana's file
Speaker 2: was produced, his application was reviewed. It became clear to us.
Speaker 2: Harmon recalled, particularly to the deans, that the only course
Speaker 2: of action from the standpoint of the institution, since this
Speaker 2: young man had applied to Princeton under utterly false pretenses,
Speaker 2: was to declare the admission null and void. And so
Speaker 2: that's what we did. Alexei Santana was now officially a ghost,
Speaker 2: is how the quote ends.
Speaker 1: Wow. So they just they don't like go and try
Speaker 1: to remove him. They just say, you're no longer a student.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're out, like full on you know ejection.
Speaker 1: You were never here. This never happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, never happened. So let's stop your let's stop for
Speaker 2: a second, a minute, one too. We come back. We're
Speaker 2: going to see what it means for Alexi to be
Speaker 2: a ghost. Hey buddy, Hey what girl, buddy, listen zaren yes,
Speaker 2: close your eyes.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, just jump.
Speaker 2: Its placement right, yeah, I want you to picture it. Yes,
Speaker 2: you are an economics major with a minor in geology
Speaker 2: at Princeton University. Your father went to Princeton. He's the
Speaker 2: CEO of an energy conglomerate, and you are prepping to
Speaker 2: follow in his footsteps. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2: Chris Isaac's wicked game is climbing the charts. You love
Speaker 2: that whole album and you listen to it all the
Speaker 2: time on your sony Discman. You wear your hair in
Speaker 2: that sort of updated pompador and think of yourself as
Speaker 2: a dashing ladies man Zaren. You are not. But that's okay.
Speaker 2: We all get to reinvent ourselves. We all get to
Speaker 2: craft our identities for those around us. Right now, you're
Speaker 2: in Geology three sixteen Structural Geology and Tectonics. Well, the
Speaker 2: lab portion of the course. Your professor, John Supa pretty
Speaker 2: much crafted this course himself. He literally wrote the book
Speaker 2: on it. And you're all clustered around tables, low mumbled
Speaker 2: conversation and a scribble of pencil on paper to create
Speaker 2: this low buzz in the room. The class is offered
Speaker 2: in the spring semester, so the course can wrap up
Speaker 2: with a field trip to Vermont. You'll be examining on
Speaker 2: the ground evidence of an ancient tectonic collision between an
Speaker 2: island arc and North America. It's fascinating stuff. There are
Speaker 2: seven guys in this lab with you, and one of
Speaker 2: them is that cool guy Alexi Santana. He's sitting across
Speaker 2: from you on the table. He used to dress kind
Speaker 2: of raggedy, like long, scraggly hair, ball cap, pulled low sunglasses,
Speaker 2: cowboy boots, but when he came back for his sophomore year,
Speaker 2: he'd gone all preppy, like collared shirts and running shoes,
Speaker 2: short hair. Everything seems so effortless for him. He doesn't
Speaker 2: get distracted. He just keeps his head down and does
Speaker 2: really well, and you envy that. You stop staring at him,
Speaker 2: go back to work, flipping through pages in your notebook.
Speaker 2: Suddenly there's a knock at the door. Doctor Supa heads
Speaker 2: over and open the large classroom door. Outside are two
Speaker 2: detectives in suits, their badges held up for inspection. We're
Speaker 2: here for James Hogue. They say, I don't have a
Speaker 2: student with that name, gentlemen, I'm so sorry. Alexi stands.
Speaker 2: They mean me, he says. Everyone in the room looks
Speaker 2: at each other in silence. I'm James Hogue, he says,
Speaker 2: James hog. One detective says you are under arrest. Every
Speaker 2: One in the room gasps. The professor gives you all
Speaker 2: a disapproving look. Alexi walks over to the officers and
Speaker 2: turns his back to them. One reads his rights as
Speaker 2: the other clicks handcuffs on him. They usher him out
Speaker 2: of the class, his open notebook on the table, his
Speaker 2: backpack on the chair. There's nothing but silence in the
Speaker 2: room until you clear your throat you speak. Looks like
Speaker 2: he was running a wicked game. Everyone groans and rolls
Speaker 2: their eyes. Enough with the Chris Isaac stuff. They complain
Speaker 2: to you, a wicked game. Indeed, you declare, so, I'm
Speaker 2: sorry it made you such a dork. So the students
Speaker 2: in that class there were now sitting on the best
Speaker 2: piece of gossip of perhaps God.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so they.
Speaker 1: Wait the event of their college years. This is like,
Speaker 1: you know, the event at Princeton.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, they waste no time in getting the word
Speaker 2: out that Alexi was not Alexi, and he got arrested.
Speaker 2: And then they start like inventing more and more details.
Speaker 1: Spice color the track team.
Speaker 2: They're beside themselves. They could not imagine what Alexi could
Speaker 2: have done to get arrested. One of the students who
Speaker 2: had been tasked was showing James around when he first
Speaker 2: showed up, heard through the grapevine about Renee Pachaco and
Speaker 2: the Palo Alto story. So he also called the reporter
Speaker 2: and got the dirt. Wow, this reporter is like a
Speaker 2: weird little anyway.
Speaker 1: And why is there numbers so easy?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: So meanwhile, James, he's being held at the Princeton Borough
Speaker 2: Police Station. His interview with detectives when is followed under
Speaker 2: what name did you make application to Princeton University? Under
Speaker 2: Alexi Santana? Where did you obtain that name? I made
Speaker 2: it up for what purpose? I wanted to start all
Speaker 2: over again without any burdens of my past. So James
Speaker 2: answered all their questions and told the truth about everything.
Speaker 1: He always seems to do that he does.
Speaker 2: But the cops didn't feel like they were getting the
Speaker 2: whole story. But that's just how he operates, Like I'm
Speaker 2: not sure he knew the whole story, Like you know,
Speaker 2: he holds so much to the chest. Pretty soon though
Speaker 2: the national media was all about this. It was just
Speaker 2: too good, and like many of the Princeton students were
Speaker 2: totally indignant. How dare this riff raff come in here
Speaker 2: to make a mockery?
Speaker 1: That's the story the elites, right.
Speaker 2: And he was supposed to be our special little character.
Speaker 2: And then that snitch, Renee but Jacob. She was feeling
Speaker 2: all proud of herself for blowing the whole thing wide
Speaker 2: open until someone said to her, like, he's going to
Speaker 2: go to prison because you know what happens there. You
Speaker 2: know what happens to a guy in prison, and Renee Pachaiko,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, she's like, oh, I feel terrible,
Speaker 2: Like it became real to her, and like the scale
Speaker 2: of the crime.
Speaker 1: She just wanted to bust, not bust somebody, but like
Speaker 1: break out the truth.
Speaker 2: I guess realized, like the machinery of the ramifications of
Speaker 2: this and so like this is so people.
Speaker 1: Do that they don't think about the results of their
Speaker 1: actions or their choices. And then and then there's surprised
Speaker 1: when he.
Speaker 2: Meets reality to be the hero of her story.
Speaker 1: In that moment.
Speaker 2: In that moment, consequences and it's this is so not
Speaker 2: worth any suffering what he does.
Speaker 1: No, and if he's getting away with it, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: who's really hurting zero?
Speaker 2: People got hurt zero anyway. So while he's in lock up,
Speaker 2: he gets a visit from giacinto this physical chemistry professor
Speaker 2: at Princeton and he felt for James. He didn't think
Speaker 2: that James was a hard and criminal. He's like someone
Speaker 2: who just doesn't think about the consequences of his action,
Speaker 2: like right, And so James makes bail and the professor
Speaker 2: offers him money, but James won't take it. But the
Speaker 2: professors then how about, like, I'm going to help you
Speaker 2: move to Cambridge. I've got people there like Harvard Harvard.
Speaker 2: He's like, you can take classes at the Harvard Extension
Speaker 2: and I can get you a job. He got a
Speaker 2: part time job cataloging Harvard's collection of precious minerals and gems.
Speaker 2: I feel like that was a bad choice and it
Speaker 2: was because stuff went missing.
Speaker 3: Ohs go.
Speaker 2: On this moment, these searches room, they find more than
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars worth of minerals and gems.
Speaker 1: He's like grabbing every sappire he came.
Speaker 2: Crazy expensive microscope that belonged to Hardcore Lab share with
Speaker 2: the Harvard Seal on it. He's like you. So February tenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, he pleads guilty to the charge of
Speaker 2: theft by deception. He told the court quote, I submitted
Speaker 2: an application at Princeton University which had a different name
Speaker 2: and date of birth. It was my intent to gain
Speaker 2: admission by deception. So he got two hundred and seventy
Speaker 2: days at the Mercer County Correctional Center, one hundred hours
Speaker 2: of community service, five years probation. He was also supposed
Speaker 2: to pay back Princeton twenty one.
Speaker 3: Thousand dollars ride.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so James he went from Cambridge to
Speaker 2: New Jersey for his sentencing December eighteenth, nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 2: He served five months, and on the day of his release,
Speaker 2: he gets arrested for the theft of the gems and he
Speaker 2: did another seventeen months for theft and probation violation. So
Speaker 2: remember that documentary I mentioned. The best part of the
Speaker 2: whole thing is an interview with James's cellmate, Donald Cilentry Junior.
Speaker 2: He's in for being a fence in some sort of
Speaker 2: operation in New Jersey. He said James was a quiet
Speaker 2: guy like your read. And I guess when James got out,
Speaker 2: he came by Donald's house and dropped off a box
Speaker 2: of his stuff like books, old clothes, that sort of
Speaker 2: thing and things in the name of Alexei Santana. Like
Speaker 2: there was like a running trophy. So in the documentary,
Speaker 2: like the guy's the cellmate's poking through the box which
Speaker 2: he still had, and he's holding up T shirts and
Speaker 2: you know, showing off the contents. And then we go
Speaker 2: inside the house and we talked to Donald's dad, Donald
Speaker 2: Cilentre Senior. Don Senior participates in the film sitting in
Speaker 2: an easy chair in a robe with a gun on
Speaker 2: the table.
Speaker 3: Next to him.
Speaker 2: Like he's just all like casual in this terry cloth robe,
Speaker 2: just and I'm praying it stays closed. And he's telling
Speaker 2: about how you know, there's something just off about James,
Speaker 2: and then the camera pans over and there's like a
Speaker 2: glock on the table. It's amazing. It's like the greatest moment.
Speaker 2: So I get all curious. I'm like, what's the story
Speaker 2: with this Don Senior?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: So I look him up and he had a record too.
Speaker 1: Is he a new Jersey run.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah so, but here's his obituary in twenty twelve
Speaker 2: gives amazing bits. Donald the duck Celentre right there, He's
Speaker 2: the duck seventy eight of Trenton. Passed away on Thursday,
Speaker 2: September twenty seventh, twenty twelve, at home. Born in Trenton,
Speaker 2: Donald was a lifelong Trenton resident. He was a veteran
Speaker 2: of the United States Army. Donald was the owner operator
Speaker 2: of Don's Deli in Trenton, which he opened at the
Speaker 2: age of sixteen years and ran the business for sixty
Speaker 2: two years until the time of his death. He enjoyed
Speaker 2: trips to Atlantic City.
Speaker 1: There it is.
Speaker 2: I want a movie about the duck.
Speaker 1: My dad is from Trenton, and I gotta ask him
Speaker 1: if he knows Don's Please do.
Speaker 2: All, please do, because like the dad has a record,
Speaker 2: son has a record, He's got a gun on the table.
Speaker 1: I like the kind of place my pop would know.
Speaker 2: This guy was like a beautiful diamond in the middle
Speaker 2: of this documentary. It's it's a great thing.
Speaker 1: But like the Robe Ready documentary, he looks.
Speaker 2: Like fresh out of the shower. Great. One of the
Speaker 2: other things that I loved about it like he and
Speaker 2: his son are super tickled that James got one over
Speaker 2: on Princeton. They love it. And then they interview Keith,
Speaker 2: the friend that you know, the he's just like stoked
Speaker 2: that James scammed in Ivy League college and like not
Speaker 2: some state school, Like, don't embarrass the state school. Stick
Speaker 2: it to them. He's just like Grinnan all over himself.
Speaker 2: And I love punch up. I love the contrast with
Speaker 2: the offended Princeton kids, you know, like everyone else, all
Speaker 2: the working folks, They're like, this is entertaining. He's a
Speaker 2: folk hero. Good for him. So in the following years,
Speaker 2: like James tangled with the law a bunch of times.
Speaker 2: He also participated in the documentary and was interviewed by
Speaker 2: David Samuels for The New Yorker. He's enigmatic in all
Speaker 2: of it, the crimes, the confession. He's always truthful when confronted,
Speaker 2: Like we said, but you get this sense that he's
Speaker 2: just sort of out of step with time and place.
Speaker 1: I was just about to say, he feels like he
Speaker 1: was pulled from a different time and roped here. He said,
Speaker 1: make do.
Speaker 2: He wants to be alone, and he values his privacy.
Speaker 2: He wanted to get like this huge swath of land
Speaker 2: and build a cabin and be self sufficient. And he's
Speaker 2: really interesting in the documentary of just like trying to
Speaker 2: explain himself, but then he won't. He just kind of
Speaker 2: gives these little smirks when he doesn't want to talk
Speaker 2: about stuff. He got busted for living in makeshift shacks
Speaker 2: and aspen because he's still.
Speaker 1: Kind of like basically doing his cowboy thing right, and
Speaker 1: he goes back to like he can sleep outdoors. He
Speaker 1: can sleep.
Speaker 2: When you take all the like garbage away. He's a
Speaker 2: guy who likes to be outdoors, can sleep outside in
Speaker 2: the ground. Very self sufficient, incredible athlete, and brilliant. The
Speaker 2: guy he's just like acing it everywhere he goes so
Speaker 2: like he no, it's not and he's just out of step,
Speaker 2: like he's just misplaced. So he's living in these makeshift shacks.
Speaker 2: He keeps getting busted like he's stealing bike parts and
Speaker 2: ski equipment other odds and ends, and he becomes this
Speaker 2: sort of like bumming criminal figure and Aspen. Over the years,
Speaker 2: like the cops would show up to these like camouflage
Speaker 2: little lean twos that he'd have in the middle of
Speaker 2: the woods with like a cord running to an apartment
Speaker 2: building and he'd jump out a window and they're like, James,
Speaker 2: a bunch of Yeah. The last I could track him
Speaker 2: down was twenty twenty one. He was arrested by Aspen
Speaker 2: police officers investigating a burglary and he got charged with
Speaker 2: parking illegally and stealing power from a nearby apartment building.
Speaker 2: And they didn't take him to jail, like there's such
Speaker 2: a low level thing that they just gave him a
Speaker 2: summons for trespassing and tampering. And I haven't been able
Speaker 2: to find anything since. I wish him well, really, I
Speaker 2: do have a question for you, though. Have you ever
Speaker 2: thought about what it would be like to go back
Speaker 2: in your life and do things over with the knowledge
Speaker 2: you have now.
Speaker 1: I've been asked that a couple of times, Like it's
Speaker 1: just like a general like get to know your question,
Speaker 1: like hey, would you rather this or rather that? Or
Speaker 1: like could you imagine? And I've thought about this like
Speaker 1: in earnestness, like I think it wouldn't be as much
Speaker 1: fun because the part of the discovery process, like the
Speaker 1: first time is so memorable because it's different than all
Speaker 1: the rest and what follows it that I wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to go back and try to like fake a first time.
Speaker 1: It's something, you know what I mean? Like the part
Speaker 1: of the not knowing is part of the magic. So
Speaker 1: if I knew something, I don't think anything would feel
Speaker 1: valuable or real. I don't think it would actually affect
Speaker 1: me because it's like a marionetted reality, Like I'm controlling
Speaker 1: all the strings, so it's not real and I know it,
Speaker 1: and I can't convince myself that the reaction is real
Speaker 1: if I'm tricking people, like I would be aware of
Speaker 1: the strings even if they're not. So I don't think
Speaker 1: that I could go back in time. You know, if
Speaker 1: I could turn back time, I got to bring it back,
Speaker 1: I would not because it wouldn't do much, and I
Speaker 1: would go to a different time.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, I would.
Speaker 1: Rather go if you had time travel, Rather than going
Speaker 1: back into my own life and redoing something, or going
Speaker 1: back and pretending to be like a college student or whatever.
Speaker 1: I'd much rather go and see what like eighteen thirty
Speaker 1: was like you and a certain not in America, but
Speaker 1: in other places. I would like to see. I know
Speaker 1: what it was like in America, But so that's it.
Speaker 1: What about you would you want to go back.
Speaker 2: And be yourself? I think about it a lot. Did
Speaker 2: you specifically want to be Yeah, like I could imagine
Speaker 2: like going back to college and not skipping as many classes,
Speaker 2: like actually applying myself sure, and having like a wiser
Speaker 2: outlook on life and people and relationships. Absolutely being savvy
Speaker 2: when originally I was anything but right. So I, you know,
Speaker 2: getting to try things over again, or like seeing things
Speaker 2: with a clearer understanding.
Speaker 1: I do like to do things twice.
Speaker 2: I'll try anything twice.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean like I liked if I'm going to
Speaker 1: do something, I often enjoy it the second time more
Speaker 1: than the first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you watch TV shows over.
Speaker 1: All sorts of stuff. I go to city. I've lived
Speaker 1: in cities twice. I mean like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: things that I do twice. So I don't mind going
Speaker 1: and trying something again. But it's different, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. I'm just better at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like the notion of being able to rewrite it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I feel like James got to try that out
Speaker 2: feel really good to do it this way.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it that way, and then he
Speaker 1: also got to I mean I wonder if it made
Speaker 1: him feel anything. You know, those students thinking he was cool?
Speaker 2: If you yeah, what what did it feel like standing
Speaker 2: there having the champagne raining down on you?
Speaker 1: I think that one probably did feel good because it's
Speaker 1: such a like a culmination of his own things. But
Speaker 1: I'm saying is the people he tricked. I know that
Speaker 1: essentially he tricked them to get in, but I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I think he would feel like not that he'd earned it,
Speaker 1: but then he was special and that they're recognizing that
Speaker 1: when he's actually conning people. I wonder if it felt anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It'd be interesting to find out.
Speaker 2: I don't think we.
Speaker 1: Ever will, No, not unless we can find him.
Speaker 2: Dave, I need to talk back.
Speaker 5: Oh God, I went get.
Speaker 4: Hi Sarn, Elizabeth, producer Dye, and the interns who may
Speaker 4: or may not be dogs. I was listening to the
Speaker 4: episode with a side of chow chow the kidnapping of
Speaker 4: Elton B. Stevens Junior this morning, and I had to
Speaker 4: laugh because my husband and I have a running joke
Speaker 4: about the Curse of Oak Island that every episode is
Speaker 4: the same, So whenever we see a preview or airing
Speaker 4: this Friday episode with clips I'll be like, I've seen
Speaker 4: that already because every episode is the same, and I
Speaker 4: think that's really.
Speaker 1: You feel me? Are that shows?
Speaker 2: And with that we shall end things. You can find
Speaker 2: us online at Ridiculous Crime dot com. Did you know
Speaker 2: that with every click of the mouse we plant a tree?
Speaker 3: I did not know that us in magical for us,
Speaker 3: that's awesome.
Speaker 2: Every time someone clicks the mouse on Ridiculous time.
Speaker 1: Dot com an actual physical mouse.
Speaker 2: There's a mouse that runs around and you have to
Speaker 2: try and find me with your mouse. Yeah. We're also
Speaker 2: at Ridiculous Crime on both bluesky and Instagram Bluski and
Speaker 2: you can email us at Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,
Speaker 2: uh producer Dave, and then also leave us a talkback
Speaker 2: on the iHeart app. I love those. You have no
Speaker 2: idea how much I love these talkbacks reach out. Ridiculous
Speaker 2: Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced
Speaker 2: and edited by President of Princeton University Dave Kusten, starring
Speaker 2: Annals Rutger as Judath. Research is by Professor of Coolness
Speaker 2: Mursa Brown and Writing Center Assistant Alex French. The theme
Speaker 2: song is by Princeton University track team Sockboys Thomas Lee
Speaker 2: and Travis Dutt. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five
Speaker 2: hundred guest here and makeup by Sparkleshot and mister Andre.
Speaker 2: Executive produce this our philosopher Goat Wrangler Ben Bollen and
Speaker 2: Ashram chemistry tutor Noel Brown.
Speaker 4: Ridicous Crime, Say It One More Time Ridiquious Crime.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts.
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