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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Zaren.

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Speaker 3: Girl Nothing Much.

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Speaker 2: Listen. I was wondering if you knew what was ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: I was so hoping you would ask me that, because

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Speaker 1: I do you got a new dog? Yes, they did

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Speaker 1: a Bernie's mountainn a doodle. But it's part Bernie's Mountain Dog.

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Speaker 2: Part it's a half Bernie's Mountain Dog, half poodle.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now do you know what you now have with

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Speaker 1: Frank Ocean?

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Speaker 2: Does Frank Ocean have a burn A Doodle?

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Speaker 1: Not only does he have a Burna doodle, he has

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Speaker 1: a Bernie's Mountain Dog. He has half of what you have,

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Speaker 1: but he also he named his dog Everest. Here's what

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Speaker 1: the dog looks like, right, And here he is in

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Speaker 1: the studio with his dog, right. Because the reason why

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Speaker 1: this dog is so important is Everest to him is

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Speaker 1: that he named the dog an executive producer on his

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Speaker 1: album Channel Orange. Okay, and that one the Graand so

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Speaker 1: his dog is the only dog ever to win Grammy.

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Speaker 1: I think the only dog ever to win a Grammy period.

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Speaker 1: But there you go that you now have a common

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Speaker 1: thing with You can tell people my dog is much

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Speaker 1: like the Grammy Award winning Everest, which is you know

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Speaker 1: of the Frank Ocean family.

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Speaker 2: Ros and then and then I've got Monty. Oh that's right,

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Speaker 2: I'm running with two now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're running deep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm back in my correct place.

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Speaker 1: There you are. It seems like your energies are sorted.

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Speaker 2: Rosie is a handful.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I notice all like the bitten clothing and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, oh yeah, there's interns.

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Speaker 2: Now that is that is ridiculous, right? You know what

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Speaker 2: else is ridiculous?

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Speaker 1: No, but I think you can tell.

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Speaker 2: Me Criming for the love of running. This is ridiculous

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Speaker 2: crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers. Heis cons

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Speaker 2: It's always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: You damn right.

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Speaker 2: You. You mentioned recently that you don't like jogging, so

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Speaker 2: you're not a runner.

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Speaker 1: Uh No. I will run in two instances, if there's

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Speaker 1: a ball or a gun.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's a good rule.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, both of those times I will run happily.

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Speaker 4: Ye.

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Speaker 1: So, but if there's no ball, no gun, probably not running.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I've never been one for running. In my

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Speaker 2: former life, I was relatively athletic like, I played a

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Speaker 2: lot of sports when I was younger, but I always

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Speaker 2: hated running always.

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Speaker 1: I don't like jogging. I like sprinting, like I can,

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Speaker 1: you can't walking.

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Speaker 2: I love walking. I do what I wish I were

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Speaker 2: in the running ambling. I love strolling. For people who

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Speaker 2: love to run, like it gives them a high, they're

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Speaker 2: into it, and they start to feel off when they don't.

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Speaker 1: Run, like because their body gets regulated by.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I envy that. And there's also yeah, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: seem like something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just no way there's I am built for comfort,

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Speaker 2: not speed, so there's no way I'm running, right, but

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Speaker 2: I wish I could. There's the solitary nature of like

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Speaker 2: the long distance runner. Oh yeah, I like solitary activity.

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Speaker 1: This is true. This is very true.

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Speaker 2: And like that running must be very therapeutic and contemplative

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Speaker 2: like zen Like, yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: It's cross country skiing or yeah, there's non impactful right.

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Speaker 2: So for kids coming up who run, the accomplishment outside

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Speaker 2: of the running itself is to like run in college,

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Speaker 2: get a scholarship or something, and the top of the

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Speaker 2: pile is the Olympics. Oh yeah, right, But it's not

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Speaker 2: like football or baseball or basketball with profession in the leagues.

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Speaker 1: No, pretty much. You go to Penn Nationals, then you

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Speaker 1: go to the Olympics and you're adult.

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Speaker 2: That's it. But then you ex exactly. But like those

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Speaker 2: sports though, like the you know, professional league sports, there

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Speaker 2: are phenoms in running. Yes, they're just gifted and they

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Speaker 2: have to do it. Born runners. Yes, I want to

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Speaker 2: tell you about a born runner, babe. He was born

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Speaker 2: to run. He's a fascinating character. His name is James Hogue.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's the same, time's familiar.

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Speaker 2: Good Midwestern boy.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He was born October twenty second, nineteen fifty nine in

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Speaker 2: Kansas City, Kansas. Ah. So it's not the same as

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Speaker 2: Kansas City, Missouri. The President may not know the difference,

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Speaker 2: but it is an important difference. It is Kansas City, Missouri,

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Speaker 2: very large city. Half a million people live there, home

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Speaker 2: to your chiefs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, not my chiefs, but the chiefs.

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Speaker 3: And then.

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Speaker 2: One hundred and fifty thousand people live in Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 1: And are they separated by anything the river?

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Speaker 2: Right, I think, yeah, so wyan Dot County, Kansas. I

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Speaker 2: think like GM plants and associated warehouse and so it's

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Speaker 2: a lot of working class folks and the Hogues working

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Speaker 2: class family. I think his dad worked for like the

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Speaker 2: railroad or something. So James normal kid, except for the

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Speaker 2: fact that he was fast.

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Speaker 3: He was a great run, super fast James.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's fleet footed, excellent stamina. Like this guy could

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Speaker 2: just run for long distance.

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Speaker 1: Oh so he's both fast and cross country distance.

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Speaker 2: Right, okay, and he's just a quiet dude, you know. Like,

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Speaker 2: so he ran track in high school. Of course, he

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Speaker 2: was state champion in a two mile run and his

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Speaker 2: name is still on a plaque in the wall at

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Speaker 2: Washington High School.

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Speaker 1: Good for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So he graduated in nineteen seventy seven and he

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Speaker 2: goes off to college at the University of Wyoming now

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Speaker 2: University of Wyoming track program. Super interesting.

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Speaker 1: And also he's coming along right when running is becoming

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Speaker 1: a realty exactly.

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Speaker 2: So the big dogs in running at the time were

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Speaker 2: the University of Texas at i'll Passo and the University

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Speaker 2: of Oregon are the two ones, and so they dominated

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Speaker 2: all the running, and they sent a lot of athletes

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Speaker 2: to the Olympics, and so they battled it out constantly

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Speaker 2: for the top spot in the NCAA rankings, and the

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Speaker 2: head coach at the University of Wyoming. Ron Richardson. He

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Speaker 2: was brought in to shake up the program. He wanted

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Speaker 2: to rival those colleges and take some titles. Go ahead,

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Speaker 2: send some runners to go for the gold. So James

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Speaker 2: he got to the school at the same time as

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Speaker 2: this new coach did, and James he could be part

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Speaker 2: of this new exciting program and it was brutal. Training

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Speaker 2: was nuts. James was all about it right. So here's

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Speaker 2: a description from the New Yorker quote. Members of the

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Speaker 2: Wyoming team that year describe Richardson as a cold, distant

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Speaker 2: figure who met with his athletes underneath the bleachers of

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Speaker 2: the university's indoor track in a small, cramped office where

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Speaker 2: he kept a dog eared copy of a book about

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Speaker 2: the management techniques of Jengis Khan. As the skies grew

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Speaker 2: dark and the temperature dropped, Richardson would push his runners

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Speaker 2: through thirty two two hundred and twenty meters sprints wow,

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Speaker 2: followed by sixteen quarter miles and eight half mile.

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Speaker 1: Runs sixteen quarter miles miles.

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Speaker 2: Then eight half mile. Having read that sprinters would retain

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Speaker 2: muscle memory when they ran faster than they were ordinarily

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Speaker 2: able to do, he also developed a unique system for

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Speaker 2: training his distance runners. He would tie a rope to

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Speaker 2: a tumbling belt around the runner's waist and tow the

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Speaker 2: runner up and down the high altitude trails, holding the

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Speaker 2: other end of the rope as he drove his Volkswagon bug.

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Speaker 2: When his runners lost a meat at Brigham Young University,

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Speaker 2: he picked them up early the next morning, dropped them

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Speaker 2: off seventeen miles from Laramie, and told him to run home.

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Speaker 2: What yeah, so the sky no nonsense? Like nuts? He

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Speaker 2: wanted a team of winners, yes, and so to help

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Speaker 2: do that beyond this training regimen.

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Speaker 1: The pulling the Volkswagen is nuts.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there are pictures of it. He figured. You

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Speaker 2: know what, I'm going to import some runners? Yeah, enter

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Speaker 2: the Kenyans. Oh, of course, Kenyans dominate distance running for

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Speaker 2: whatever reasons. Kenyons are amazing, And I'm sure there are

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Speaker 2: Kenyans like me who say God bless and good job

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Speaker 2: to the runners and are not so inclined themselves. But

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Speaker 2: those who do run are disproportionately amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't tell me about the oxygenation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, So all these Kenyons showed up on scholarship

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Speaker 2: in Wyoming. I think they're like four and they were

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Speaker 2: they were like twenty eight years old. So in Wyoming,

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Speaker 2: this is not an organic track de part no no.

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Speaker 2: So they locked in immediately.

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Speaker 3: To the getting food to eat.

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Speaker 2: Wyoming goodness. So they were all about this punishing training regime.

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Speaker 2: Like some of them would put heavy boots on and

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Speaker 2: run in the snow to like keep you know, and

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Speaker 2: the rest of the team they're struggling, James is keeping

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Speaker 2: up the coaches. Gambit paid off. So November of nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy seven, University of Wyoming's cross country team finished third

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Speaker 2: in the country behind Oregon. Yeah, so James, he had

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Speaker 2: this friend from back home, Keith Mark, and he was

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Speaker 2: one of them two first namers. So Keith he'd been

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Speaker 2: a runner two, but not as talented or driven as James,

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Speaker 2: but the two like stayed in touch. After James went

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Speaker 2: off to college. James would write in letters about what

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Speaker 2: it was like and how grueling the training was, but

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Speaker 2: he never had any complaints, just like arrow Focus. His

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Speaker 2: sophomore year, James had Keith come to visit, and Keith

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Speaker 2: saw a bunch of car stereos and bike frames and

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Speaker 2: James's apartment. Yeah, he's like red flag, Like, where did

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Speaker 2: you get all this stuff? James? He later went to

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Speaker 2: visit Keith back at home and James leaves the house.

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Speaker 2: Keith looks around and sees that one of his track

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Speaker 2: medals is missing and it was for an event that

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Speaker 2: James had never won. So he calls James. James is like, no,

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Speaker 2: I didn't take it. But then later calls Keith back

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Speaker 2: and he's like, yeah, my mom found your metal outside

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Speaker 2: or something. That was pretty much the last time they talked.

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Speaker 1: So ye, friendship over.

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Speaker 2: So, like all this stuff happened in college, Like he

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Speaker 2: was working in collecting butterflies for some professor and like

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Speaker 2: got all in this inclement weather and like had these

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Speaker 2: moments where it was just you know, transformative for him. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so he's different at this point. He's not like taking drugs.

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Speaker 1: Wait you say transformative, He's different. So he went out

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Speaker 1: on like a butterfly hunting expedition.

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Speaker 2: And there's a crazy storm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he bare almost died, and yeah.

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Speaker 2: Keith was there. They almost died and it was just

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Speaker 2: like nuts and he thinks that that was like the

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Speaker 2: moment where everything kind of changed with James. But James

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Speaker 2: when they asked him He's like, this wasn't a big

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Speaker 2: deal butterflies, Yeah, exactly. So shortly after this, James drops

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Speaker 2: out of school at Wyoming and he moves to Texas

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Speaker 2: and he goes to community college there, and then he

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Speaker 2: transferred to University of Texas at Austin and he was

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Speaker 2: he was about to graduate, but then he ran out

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Speaker 2: of money so he left. And then he got busted

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Speaker 2: in Austin for theft from a bicycle shop. He loves bike,

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Speaker 2: stealing bike stuff. Oh yeah. He bounced out to Colorado

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Speaker 2: after that. There's a lot of missing time.

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Speaker 1: That his story is hard to figure out.

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Speaker 2: And it's for us to track, you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what he was up to. He was in California

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Speaker 2: for a while. He's bumming around getting odd jobs, stealing

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Speaker 2: stuff here and there. And then he shows up again,

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Speaker 2: this time in Palo Alto, California. Hey, and this time,

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Speaker 2: twenty five year old James was suddenly sixteen year old

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Speaker 2: orphan Jay Mitchell Huntsman.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's six.

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Speaker 1: He can pass for sixteen.

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Speaker 2: He's kind of a slight guy.

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Speaker 1: He said. He was like a long distance runner. I'm

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Speaker 1: imagining him kind of fine bombing.

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Speaker 2: Doctor, really tall, Palo Alto is my dad's hometown, by

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Speaker 2: the way, really and Jay Huntsman he wanted to go

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Speaker 2: this orphan Jay Huntsman, he wanted to go to my

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Speaker 2: dad's alma mater, Palo Alto High School, affectionately known as

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Speaker 2: Palli Pal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, was that weird for you? Pop up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was weird like Palli. Oh, So who was

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Speaker 2: the real Jay Huntsman?

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Speaker 1: Who is the real Jays?

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Speaker 2: Great question? He did exist with the birthday that James provided.

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Speaker 2: So it seems that James combed newspaper articles from around

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Speaker 2: the time he wanted to have been born, and he

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Speaker 2: found an o bit for a newborn who passed away

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Speaker 2: from pneumonia. Whoa boom, new identity. So here's how it

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Speaker 2: all goes down, right, James. He goes up to the

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Speaker 2: Stanford cross country coach and tells him, I'm a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old orphan, you know, he said, I was born

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Speaker 2: in San Diego nineteen sixty nine. When I was eight,

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Speaker 2: me and my family we moved to this Ananda ashrom

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Speaker 2: in Nevada.

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Speaker 3: Whoa yeah, he says.

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Speaker 2: He's like self taught. He did all his learning on

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Speaker 2: his own, he said. When he wasn't working in the

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Speaker 2: asheron he ran fifty to sixty miles a week, so.

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Speaker 1: This explains why he has no transcripts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then his parents died in the car accident

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Speaker 2: in Bolivia even and then he sets his sights on

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Speaker 2: attending Stanford, and he figured Palo Alto High was the

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Speaker 2: place to get started on that. So the coach at

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Speaker 2: Stanford's like, yeah, go register with the school district. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure how you showed up here, but okay. So

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Speaker 2: James he gets provisionally accepted into the Palo Alto Unified

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Speaker 2: School district and they send him to Pali. Now there

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Speaker 2: are other high school There's Gun, you know, other high school's,

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Speaker 2: but now he goes to Pali and then he unofficially

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Speaker 2: joins the cross country team. Unofficially, well, they're like for

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Speaker 2: the paperwork to come through, so they can't like he's

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Speaker 2: He's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to have him send

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Speaker 2: out my birth certifigin. I'm going to have him send.

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Speaker 1: Out I was wondering what paperwork.

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Speaker 2: School everyone, But in the meantime they're like, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 2: come to school. We don't want you, you know, being

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Speaker 2: in delinquent. Everyone really liked him. His class and his team.

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Speaker 2: They're fascinated by his story and they couldn't get over

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Speaker 2: his race times, like they're incredible. But don't forget this

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Speaker 2: guy was like a runner at University of Wyoming and

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Speaker 2: now he's like, oh yeah, he's a twenty five year

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Speaker 2: old former collegiate runner. So he did well in school

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Speaker 2: at Wyoming, right, so it should also come as no

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Speaker 2: surprise that he was acing things at Pally. His English

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Speaker 2: teacher thought that he looked a little older than his peers.

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Speaker 2: Quote as a teacher, it was rude for me to

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Speaker 2: even think that he was older, even though he was

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Speaker 2: very thin and you could see the shadow of his beard.

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Speaker 1: He had these crows feet eyes exactly.

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Speaker 2: So then came the Stanford Cross Country Invitational October seventh,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five. So remember, James, he was not officially

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Speaker 2: a member of the team. He'd only been there a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks, and he'd only been accepted into the

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Speaker 2: school district provisionally. As I said, so I'm assuming you

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Speaker 2: know he's they're still waiting good luck. But James, uh,

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Speaker 2: the coach was like, you know what, you can still run,

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Speaker 2: go out there, just don't cross the finish line. It's

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Speaker 2: like auditing a class.

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Speaker 1: Weird.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he puts a Pali jersey. I guess he puts

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Speaker 2: a Pali jersey on inside out and he takes off,

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Speaker 2: and I guess they're figuring, like, you know, just run

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Speaker 2: with and like get a sense of it. No, he

300
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 2: goes out there and just dominates, and he just dusts everybody,

301
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Speaker 2: and he's like about to win the race, like way

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Speaker 2: ahead of everybody, and then he suddenly veers off and

303
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,360
Speaker 2: leaves the course like he didn't understand what it meant,

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Speaker 2: like cross, go, but don't cross. It's just like stay

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Speaker 2: with the pack, right Instead, he just like blasts off.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's totally puzzled by this. There just just happened.

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Speaker 1: Pulls off like he stolen NASCAR gut.

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Speaker 2: And then so there was a reporter there from a

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Speaker 2: local paper, Jason Cole with the Peninsula Times Tribune. He

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Speaker 2: thought the whole thing was super weird. So he starts

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Speaker 2: like calling around, like who is this kid? He gets

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Speaker 2: the mystery kids IDENTI and backstory from the school district,

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Speaker 2: and then it raised more questions than answers for him.

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Speaker 2: He's like, this is nuts, and I'm guessing that the

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Speaker 2: reporter went looking for information about the parents car accident

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Speaker 2: or something. It's like going through microfiche. Remember it's like

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Speaker 2: eighty five. But he comes across the same story about

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Speaker 2: the real Jay Huntsman. The dates matched up, and so

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Speaker 2: Cole the reporter tells the school district what he found,

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Speaker 2: and then he wrote an expose in the paper. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and the district confronted James is this true? He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: what's your real name? James Hogue? And then he tells

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Speaker 2: him the truth. They're freaked out and he blows town.

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Speaker 2: He leaves before anything can happen. Let's stop here for

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Speaker 2: a second, take a breathere, get some electrolytes, mellow out.

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Speaker 2: When we come back, we're going to see what James

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Speaker 2: got up to next.

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Speaker 5: Hell yeah, Zaren yo, Darren.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I had to do a couple of laughs, real quick, good, good,

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Speaker 1: Get out of my system. I always talk of running.

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Speaker 1: Get me fired. You know, I was on a track team,

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Speaker 1: so you know where you a bunch of times?

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Speaker 2: What did you do?

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Speaker 1: Hurdles? Long jump? I also a relay four by four relay.

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Speaker 2: You're saying you don't you only run if it's a

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Speaker 2: ball or gun.

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Speaker 1: Well, there there's a starting pistol.

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Speaker 2: I see what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now, but normally it's a yeah, like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to shoot you gun.

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Speaker 2: But you're a fast runner.

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Speaker 1: I was fastest.

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Speaker 2: I can imagine that.

344
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Speaker 1: It was the fastest person on my football team.

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Speaker 2: Nice, good for you.

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Speaker 3: So I broke both knees old true star OUCHI ouch.

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Speaker 2: So it was nineteen eighty five and James Hog in

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Speaker 2: knees intact, tries to pass himself off as a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old cross country running prodigy.

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: He gets found out, skips town night. He turns up

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Speaker 2: again a few years later.

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Speaker 1: In Utah in another high school.

354
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Speaker 2: No, he's in Saint George, Utah, and he's stealing bike frames,

355
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 2: of course, living out of a storage space. He had

356
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 2: stolen really expensive ones from California and that's what he's

357
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 2: gotten his storage space. Yeah, and he was I think

358
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 2: he was selling.

359
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: Some of those canon kept. Yeah, you're living on the streets.

360
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,880
Speaker 2: So he's in this storage space. He's living there, he's

361
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 2: got all the bike frames, but he's also doing research

362
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 2: about getting into an ivy League college.

363
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Speaker 1: How was he doing libraries?

364
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Speaker 2: I imagine, Yeah, he just hung out the library all

365
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Speaker 2: the time. He took the essayts and then he wrote

366
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:39,879
Speaker 2: these like absolutely incredible application essays. He invented an even

367
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 2: more incredible backstory. So it's better than the truth that

368
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 2: he was a twenty eight year old from Kansas with

369
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Speaker 2: a penchant for lifting things that were in his and

370
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Speaker 2: then even better than the sixteen year old former Ashram

371
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Speaker 2: Living kid who became an orphan things to the dangerous

372
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Speaker 2: highways of Bolivia. He's like, no, I'm shooting for the

373
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Speaker 2: moon on this one. I'm going all the way. He

374
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 2: became Alexi Induris Santana.

375
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Speaker 1: Wow, and listen, that's a hell of a name.

376
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,760
Speaker 2: Boy, Howdy did he craft the most amazing bio for

377
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 2: this kid. So Alexi Santana was homeschooled and then self taught,

378
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 2: just like Jay Huntsman. He lived in Switzerland, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Morocco,

379
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 2: and all over the American West. Yes, he later told

380
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 2: a reporter for The Trent Times quote, It's not that unusual,

381
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,359
Speaker 2: at least not when I was young in California, I

382
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 2: went to nursery school in kindergarten, and then my parents

383
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 2: decided they'd teach me at home. You have to set

384
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 2: up a private school. I learned to read early and

385
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,440
Speaker 2: always had a lot of books. Some days I'd read

386
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,639
Speaker 2: from the morning tonight. I learned some French and Italian.

387
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 2: I never have had a TV, but I listened to

388
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 2: a lot of music. I'd go to librarians and they'd

389
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 2: help me find the books I needed.

390
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 1: Well, you know it sounds convinced like that. You're like, oh, yes,

391
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 1: look at you. You auto died act working with librarians

392
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 1: and in the catalog of expand your mind.

393
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: You're fascinating. His dad's dead, he says. His mom, he said,

394
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 2: was an artist living in Switzerland.

395
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: He does like the flip on Disney instead of like

396
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: dead mom, it's dead.

397
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 2: Dad dad mom artist in Switzerland. He said. He taught

398
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:22,199
Speaker 2: himself to run in the Mojave Desert, he said. He

399
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 2: said he was currently you're gonna I cannot wait for you.

400
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,120
Speaker 2: He said he was currently a ranch hand in Arizona

401
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 2: and Utah top hand on He's moving cattle and sheep

402
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 2: in a canyon called Little Purgatory. He said he hadn't

403
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 2: slept inside in ten years, and then he read. He

404
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 2: read Plato under the Stars. He only had his horse,

405
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 2: the livestock, and his radio to keep them company. He

406
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: made up a letter of recommendation from the imaginary owner

407
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 2: of the imaginary ranch he imaginarily lived in, oh He

408
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 2: creates a story that no one could resist, and he

409
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 2: used it to get into Princeton. So he made a

410
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 2: visit to the campus after getting accepted. It's spring and

411
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: he's set to start in the falls. They're offering him

412
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 2: a full scholarship. Naturally, he went and he met with

413
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: people who charmed everyone with his tases, like huck Finn

414
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 2: Existence and Huck Finn. That's the thing is, that's what

415
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 2: the folks at the admissions office thought they would It

416
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 2: would be an ideal candidate when asked, Yeah, aside from

417
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 2: legacy students and the children of the wealthy. So meanwhile,

418
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: back in Saint George, Utah, things are developing. Some very

419
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 2: expensive stolen bicycle frames and parts had been traced to

420
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 2: James's storage unit, and the cops got a warrant and

421
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 2: they searched it, finding all the hot merch. They also

422
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,239
Speaker 2: found his applications to and correspondence with a bunch of

423
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 2: elite universities. They found an acceptance letter to Stanford under

424
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: the Alexi Santana name. Letters from other colleges doctored up

425
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: newspaper clippings about the amazing running skills of Alexi Santana

426
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: and then the materials that tied to James Hog the

427
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: actual guy. So while the police were in the unit,

428
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: James showed up and was arrested immediately.

429
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,479
Speaker 1: Oh he actually showed him and walked right seem and no,

430
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: he walked Oh, held up out of there.

431
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 2: He's just like, oh, oh, you're in here. The detectives

432
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 2: were super creeped out by the alter ego that they

433
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 2: stumbled on. Well, they're like, he you know, you're acting

434
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 2: like you're this eighteen year old kid, and you have

435
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 2: all these materials that you're pretending to be eighteen. You're

436
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: twenty eight. And so while James is in custody, they

437
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: called some of the colleges from the letters and they

438
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: let them know that Alexi Santana was actually a twenty

439
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: eight year old.

440
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: Thief party poopers.

441
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, so James, he pleads guilty to the thefts and he

442
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: gets one to five years.

443
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I guess he wouldn't get enrollment anyway because

444
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: he's get you.

445
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: Well, there's actually a story in the April seventeenth, nineteen

446
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: eighty eight, Santa Is Mercury News about the theft and arrest,

447
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: Great Newspapers, and it says that the police also quote

448
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: found evidence that Hogue, using the name Alexi Santana, was

449
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: corresponding with Ivy League universities about athletic scholarships. So it's

450
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: in the paper, but none of that news reached Princeton,

451
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: and the detectives didn't call all of the colleges. They

452
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: didn't call Princeceton, so they don't know what's going on.

453
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 3: Its pre Internet, you know, definitely.

454
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 2: So James he had to figure out how to work this.

455
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: How do you do your time and also go to Princeton.

456
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: Okay, remember you gave me a ride like a year

457
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: three years ago.

458
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't going to let jail get in the

459
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: way of his dream. So while awaiting his move to prison,

460
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: he got in touch with Princeton admissions office and he

461
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: asked for a deferment of acceptance. Smart so he told

462
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: him that his mother in Switzerland was very sick, dying

463
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: of cancer. He had to go take care of her.

464
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: Princeton's like, of course, we will be here for you

465
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: next year.

466
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: He has to go and take care of your mind.

467
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: Like James knew he wasn't going to do a whole

468
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 2: year inside and he was right. So he gets out

469
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: and then he makes his way to New Jersey to

470
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: become a Princeton man. So he shows up a few

471
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: weeks before our classes started to train with the track

472
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: team and go through the orientation process. He meets his

473
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: roommates in the dorms, one of whom was from Palo

474
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: Alto but apparently didn't recognize him. Wow, yeah, I'm thinking

475
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: he went to another high school.

476
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally me. He could be also from East Palo

477
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: out there or something where he's like different culture.

478
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: He could have gone to one of the other publics.

479
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: He could have gone to a private Embellerman or any

480
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: of these others. Gone up to the city to like

481
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: Saint Ignatius s I. Anyway, so he had he's he's

482
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 2: got a roommate in this unit of four guys from

483
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 2: Palo Alto. So at Moven, you know, James shows up.

484
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: He's got a bunch of books and CDs. He has

485
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: this photo of a skier doing like a sweet juicy

486
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: fruit move through some powder that he puts up on

487
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 2: his wall, and he has a Mexican blanket and he

488
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: slept on the floor of the room, so like the

489
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: bed was always made, he just slept on the floor.

490
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like.

491
00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: Look, I'm a cowhan, I'm a ranch hand, I'm a cowboy. Yeah, exactly.

492
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 2: I only eat beans to soft from exactly. So in

493
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: the first weeks of class, his roommate like because they

494
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: have like a unit of four, but then it's like

495
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: two to a room. His roommate got hit and killed

496
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: by a truck. Yeah, James was like sad, everyone's all upside,

497
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: but he was kind of stoked because he got private

498
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: room all to himself. They didn't put anyone in there,

499
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: and he's just had a little campfire gun play in

500
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: the harmonica all day.

501
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: Uh, he go in there, gets real lonesome real quick.

502
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 2: But like he just became a regular Princeton student. He

503
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: went to class. He got phenomenal grades. He was taking

504
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: six or seven courses each semester, which is yeah, he

505
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: got almost all a's in everything. He ran for the

506
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: track team. You know, he starts making friends. He's genial,

507
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 2: but he didn't ever like expound on anything, kept everything

508
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 2: really surface.

509
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: Also, I mean he's doing track practice, studying a lot

510
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: he's spending a lot of his time alone.

511
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 2: How he wouldn't have to expound on him exactly well,

512
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: when he would talk to people, like he would look

513
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: at the ground all the time and he would only

514
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: say like a sentence orch So people asked him about

515
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: that skiing photo, like do you ski? He's like, yeah,

516
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: is that you in the picture? He's like, yeah, well,

517
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: how did someone get that shot? I was doing stunts.

518
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 2: They're like stunts, yeah, for a movie. And then he

519
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: just changes the subject, goes on and so everyone's completely

520
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: fascinated by him.

521
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: Interesting is yeah.

522
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: There's this documentary about him called con Man. It is

523
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: really really good. It's not a long feature.

524
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: It' second.

525
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: Ever, as I was watching it, I realized that James

526
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: was giving everyone exactly what they wanted. The school wanted

527
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: a few interesting students to show how broad their population is.

528
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: Not too many interesting students, but you know, exceptional one

529
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: with incredible stories. He's going to enrich their legend.

530
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: Yes, bootstrap students.

531
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: And he provided almost the same for the students because

532
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: they all loved that they had this interesting character there

533
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: for their like Princeton experience. It made him feel special

534
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: to have this creature among them, and they got to

535
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: feel exceptional by association, Like, look at all the interesting

536
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: people I met in college, all the cool people at Princeton.

537
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: So they're thinking like, yeah, this is this elite environment

538
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: where I'm sitting between like the kid of a senator

539
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: and a genius cow poke, you know. So his presencemates, yes, yes,

540
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 2: and he's this great runner. So he brings his talents

541
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: to the athletic program and not as some sort of

542
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: brute but with like the elegance and elevated intellect of

543
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: a long distance runner, a runner philosopher, and a cowboy hat.

544
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: He just sounds itself.

545
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: There it is. They have these things called eating clubs

546
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: at Princeton yea, So they're private clubs. Is not part

547
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: of the university, and it's like a dining hall meets

548
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: social house. Almost all of the undergraduate upperclassmen join one,

549
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: and some are more exclusive than others. So each club

550
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: is located in its own mansion on this street Prospect Avenue,

551
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: and there are eleven eating clubs in total, so six

552
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: of them Cannon Club, Cap and Gown, Princeton Tower, the

553
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: Ivy Club, Tiger Inn, and University Cottage Club. Those picked

554
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: their members through a process called bicker, and it's kind

555
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: of like rush I think.

556
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, the members picked the next year's members.

557
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very competitive, yeah, exactly. And the other five

558
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: are just like a lottery system. It's such a big deal.

559
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: So one of the most exclusive of the exclusive ones

560
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: is the Ivy Club, and James got tapped for that one.

561
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

562
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: Another student remembered it, telling the New Yorker quote, two

563
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: guys came in and I guess tapped him, and they

564
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: rushed him out into the courtyard and poured champagne over

565
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: his head. And he was obviously very excited. And I

566
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: remember being struck that it was kind of a funny

567
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: thing because he didn't really fit the stereotype of someone

568
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: who would be in an IVY. Yeah. So James, he's

569
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: this oddity for everyone, this character that gives them amusement.

570
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: But there he is, soaking it all up. He's living

571
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: this amazing new life.

572
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, philosopher cowboy with champagne all over it.

573
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: Right, reveling in the excitement, the character he's created for himself.

574
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: Like everyone benefits from this.

575
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: He's got a prolonged adolescence.

576
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, think about it. Put yourself in his Imagine your

577
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: James and like there's champagne raining down on you.

578
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: You're being invited to the most exclusive.

579
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: Kyle and all the things you've done in your life

580
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 2: and then now you get to be this new character.

581
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: So but back to running track. Aw So he got

582
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: to college in the fall of eighty nine. By the

583
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: spring of nineteen ninety one, he was like fully ensconced

584
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: in the institution like classroom to track everything. And then

585
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: something happened. On February sixteenth, nineteen ninety one, James participated

586
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: in the Harvard Yale Princeton track meet in New Haven, Connecticut.

587
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: Everything's going well. All the Ivy League swells are running

588
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: around like congratulating each other and wearing their j crew whatever. Yes,

589
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: one of the students at.

590
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: The picture them in raccoon hats and fur coats, super preppy. Oh,

591
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: I know you're correct.

592
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: I just want to put rugby shirts, the striped.

593
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: Rugby shirts and the sweaters and the buffy and chadlock.

594
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: So one of the students at the meat was a

595
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: senior at Yale, Renee Pacheco, and she was there to

596
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: watch a friend of hers compete. Something interesting about Renee

597
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: is that she is an alum of none other than

598
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: Palli Palo Alto High School. She got a good memory. Yeah,

599
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: So she looks over and she sees one of the

600
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: Princeton team members. He looks familiar. They lock eyes and

601
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: she knew. She's like, that's j Mitchell Huntsman, International boy

602
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: of Mystery.

603
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: Like she knew, so she goes up to also know

604
00:30:58,960 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: they both have them.

605
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: She goes up to talk to him and he's like,

606
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: doesn't recognize her. She's like, oh, remember me, what's up? Jay?

607
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: And he's like, that's the thing when you're the more

608
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: interesting person, is that you're going to be more memorable.

609
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: Right exactly. He he doesn't recognize her. She's flummoxed. So

610
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: she she goes home and she calls that Palo Alto

611
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: reporter Jason Cole. Oh wow, busted James the first time.

612
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: She is a little snitch, is what she is?

613
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: Well, no, but she's like a detective with the.

614
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: Whole Yeah the rene mind your own business. Yeah, he's

615
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: not hurting anybody. So Cole, the reporter, he turns around

616
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: and calls Princeton. He's like, you know what, Alexi Santana

617
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 2: is actually James Hoag and he's done this before and

618
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: Prince is like according to the New Yorker quote. Justin Harmon,

619
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: the director of Communications at Princeton, was grateful for the warning.

620
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: A meeting was immediately convened with the Dean of Admissions,

621
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: Fred Harganau and the Dean of the College. Santana's file

622
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: was produced, his application was reviewed. It became clear to us.

623
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: Harmon recalled, particularly to the deans, that the only course

624
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: of action from the standpoint of the institution, since this

625
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: young man had applied to Princeton under utterly false pretenses,

626
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: was to declare the admission null and void. And so

627
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: that's what we did. Alexei Santana was now officially a ghost,

628
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: is how the quote ends.

629
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: Wow. So they just they don't like go and try

630
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: to remove him. They just say, you're no longer a student.

631
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're out, like full on you know ejection.

632
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: You were never here. This never happened.

633
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, never happened. So let's stop your let's stop for

634
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: a second, a minute, one too. We come back. We're

635
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: going to see what it means for Alexi to be

636
00:32:38,600 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: a ghost. Hey buddy, Hey what girl, buddy, listen zaren yes,

637
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: close your eyes.

638
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: Oh wow, just jump.

639
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: Its placement right, yeah, I want you to picture it. Yes,

640
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: you are an economics major with a minor in geology

641
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: at Princeton University. Your father went to Princeton. He's the

642
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: CEO of an energy conglomerate, and you are prepping to

643
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: follow in his footsteps. It's February twenty sixth, nineteen ninety one.

644
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: Chris Isaac's wicked game is climbing the charts. You love

645
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: that whole album and you listen to it all the

646
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: time on your sony Discman. You wear your hair in

647
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: that sort of updated pompador and think of yourself as

648
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: a dashing ladies man Zaren. You are not. But that's okay.

649
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: We all get to reinvent ourselves. We all get to

650
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: craft our identities for those around us. Right now, you're

651
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: in Geology three sixteen Structural Geology and Tectonics. Well, the

652
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: lab portion of the course. Your professor, John Supa pretty

653
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: much crafted this course himself. He literally wrote the book

654
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: on it. And you're all clustered around tables, low mumbled

655
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: conversation and a scribble of pencil on paper to create

656
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: this low buzz in the room. The class is offered

657
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: in the spring semester, so the course can wrap up

658
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: with a field trip to Vermont. You'll be examining on

659
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: the ground evidence of an ancient tectonic collision between an

660
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: island arc and North America. It's fascinating stuff. There are

661
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: seven guys in this lab with you, and one of

662
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 2: them is that cool guy Alexi Santana. He's sitting across

663
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: from you on the table. He used to dress kind

664
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: of raggedy, like long, scraggly hair, ball cap, pulled low sunglasses,

665
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: cowboy boots, but when he came back for his sophomore year,

666
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: he'd gone all preppy, like collared shirts and running shoes,

667
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 2: short hair. Everything seems so effortless for him. He doesn't

668
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: get distracted. He just keeps his head down and does

669
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: really well, and you envy that. You stop staring at him,

670
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: go back to work, flipping through pages in your notebook.

671
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 2: Suddenly there's a knock at the door. Doctor Supa heads

672
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: over and open the large classroom door. Outside are two

673
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 2: detectives in suits, their badges held up for inspection. We're

674
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: here for James Hogue. They say, I don't have a

675
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: student with that name, gentlemen, I'm so sorry. Alexi stands.

676
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 2: They mean me, he says. Everyone in the room looks

677
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: at each other in silence. I'm James Hogue, he says,

678
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: James hog. One detective says you are under arrest. Every

679
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: One in the room gasps. The professor gives you all

680
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: a disapproving look. Alexi walks over to the officers and

681
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: turns his back to them. One reads his rights as

682
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: the other clicks handcuffs on him. They usher him out

683
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: of the class, his open notebook on the table, his

684
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: backpack on the chair. There's nothing but silence in the

685
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: room until you clear your throat you speak. Looks like

686
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: he was running a wicked game. Everyone groans and rolls

687
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: their eyes. Enough with the Chris Isaac stuff. They complain

688
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 2: to you, a wicked game. Indeed, you declare, so, I'm

689
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: sorry it made you such a dork. So the students

690
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: in that class there were now sitting on the best

691
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: piece of gossip of perhaps God.

692
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so they.

693
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: Wait the event of their college years. This is like,

694
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, the event at Princeton.

695
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, they waste no time in getting the word

696
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: out that Alexi was not Alexi, and he got arrested.

697
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: And then they start like inventing more and more details.

698
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,959
Speaker 1: Spice color the track team.

699
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: They're beside themselves. They could not imagine what Alexi could

700
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: have done to get arrested. One of the students who

701
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: had been tasked was showing James around when he first

702
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: showed up, heard through the grapevine about Renee Pachaco and

703
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: the Palo Alto story. So he also called the reporter

704
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: and got the dirt. Wow, this reporter is like a

705
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: weird little anyway.

706
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: And why is there numbers so easy?

707
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: I don't know.

708
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: So meanwhile, James, he's being held at the Princeton Borough

709
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 2: Police Station. His interview with detectives when is followed under

710
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 2: what name did you make application to Princeton University? Under

711
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: Alexi Santana? Where did you obtain that name? I made

712
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 2: it up for what purpose? I wanted to start all

713
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: over again without any burdens of my past. So James

714
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 2: answered all their questions and told the truth about everything.

715
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: He always seems to do that he does.

716
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: But the cops didn't feel like they were getting the

717
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 2: whole story. But that's just how he operates, Like I'm

718
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: not sure he knew the whole story, Like you know,

719
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: he holds so much to the chest. Pretty soon though

720
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: the national media was all about this. It was just

721
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: too good, and like many of the Princeton students were

722
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: totally indignant. How dare this riff raff come in here

723
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: to make a mockery?

724
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: That's the story the elites, right.

725
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: And he was supposed to be our special little character.

726
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: And then that snitch, Renee but Jacob. She was feeling

727
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: all proud of herself for blowing the whole thing wide

728
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: open until someone said to her, like, he's going to

729
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: go to prison because you know what happens there. You

730
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: know what happens to a guy in prison, and Renee Pachaiko,

731
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, she's like, oh, I feel terrible,

732
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: Like it became real to her, and like the scale

733
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: of the crime.

734
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: She just wanted to bust, not bust somebody, but like

735
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: break out the truth.

736
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: I guess realized, like the machinery of the ramifications of

737
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: this and so like this is so people.

738
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: Do that they don't think about the results of their

739
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: actions or their choices. And then and then there's surprised

740
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: when he.

741
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: Meets reality to be the hero of her story.

742
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: In that moment.

743
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: In that moment, consequences and it's this is so not

744
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 2: worth any suffering what he does.

745
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: No, and if he's getting away with it, I mean, like,

746
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 1: who's really hurting zero?

747
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 2: People got hurt zero anyway. So while he's in lock up,

748
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: he gets a visit from giacinto this physical chemistry professor

749
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: at Princeton and he felt for James. He didn't think

750
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: that James was a hard and criminal. He's like someone

751
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: who just doesn't think about the consequences of his action,

752
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: like right, And so James makes bail and the professor

753
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: offers him money, but James won't take it. But the

754
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: professors then how about, like, I'm going to help you

755
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: move to Cambridge. I've got people there like Harvard Harvard.

756
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: He's like, you can take classes at the Harvard Extension

757
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: and I can get you a job. He got a

758
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: part time job cataloging Harvard's collection of precious minerals and gems.

759
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: I feel like that was a bad choice and it

760
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 2: was because stuff went missing.

761
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 3: Ohs go.

762
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 2: On this moment, these searches room, they find more than

763
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars worth of minerals and gems.

764
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: He's like grabbing every sappire he came.

765
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: Crazy expensive microscope that belonged to Hardcore Lab share with

766
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: the Harvard Seal on it. He's like you. So February tenth,

767
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, he pleads guilty to the charge of

768
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: theft by deception. He told the court quote, I submitted

769
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: an application at Princeton University which had a different name

770
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 2: and date of birth. It was my intent to gain

771
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: admission by deception. So he got two hundred and seventy

772
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: days at the Mercer County Correctional Center, one hundred hours

773
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: of community service, five years probation. He was also supposed

774
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: to pay back Princeton twenty one.

775
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: Thousand dollars ride.

776
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so James he went from Cambridge to

777
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: New Jersey for his sentencing December eighteenth, nineteen ninety two.

778
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: He served five months, and on the day of his release,

779
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: he gets arrested for the theft of the gems and he

780
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: did another seventeen months for theft and probation violation. So

781
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: remember that documentary I mentioned. The best part of the

782
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: whole thing is an interview with James's cellmate, Donald Cilentry Junior.

783
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: He's in for being a fence in some sort of

784
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 2: operation in New Jersey. He said James was a quiet

785
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: guy like your read. And I guess when James got out,

786
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: he came by Donald's house and dropped off a box

787
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: of his stuff like books, old clothes, that sort of

788
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: thing and things in the name of Alexei Santana. Like

789
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: there was like a running trophy. So in the documentary,

790
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: like the guy's the cellmate's poking through the box which

791
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: he still had, and he's holding up T shirts and

792
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: you know, showing off the contents. And then we go

793
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: inside the house and we talked to Donald's dad, Donald

794
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: Cilentre Senior. Don Senior participates in the film sitting in

795
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: an easy chair in a robe with a gun on

796
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 2: the table.

797
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: Next to him.

798
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 2: Like he's just all like casual in this terry cloth robe,

799
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 2: just and I'm praying it stays closed. And he's telling

800
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 2: about how you know, there's something just off about James,

801
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: and then the camera pans over and there's like a

802
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: glock on the table. It's amazing. It's like the greatest moment.

803
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 2: So I get all curious. I'm like, what's the story

804
00:41:58,800 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: with this Don Senior?

805
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 3: Right?

806
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: So I look him up and he had a record too.

807
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,479
Speaker 1: Is he a new Jersey run.

808
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah so, but here's his obituary in twenty twelve

809
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 2: gives amazing bits. Donald the duck Celentre right there, He's

810
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: the duck seventy eight of Trenton. Passed away on Thursday,

811
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: September twenty seventh, twenty twelve, at home. Born in Trenton,

812
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: Donald was a lifelong Trenton resident. He was a veteran

813
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: of the United States Army. Donald was the owner operator

814
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: of Don's Deli in Trenton, which he opened at the

815
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: age of sixteen years and ran the business for sixty

816
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: two years until the time of his death. He enjoyed

817
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: trips to Atlantic City.

818
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 1: There it is.

819
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 2: I want a movie about the duck.

820
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: My dad is from Trenton, and I gotta ask him

821
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: if he knows Don's Please do.

822
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: All, please do, because like the dad has a record,

823
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: son has a record, He's got a gun on the table.

824
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: I like the kind of place my pop would know.

825
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 2: This guy was like a beautiful diamond in the middle

826
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: of this documentary. It's it's a great thing.

827
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: But like the Robe Ready documentary, he looks.

828
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: Like fresh out of the shower. Great. One of the

829
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: other things that I loved about it like he and

830
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: his son are super tickled that James got one over

831
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: on Princeton. They love it. And then they interview Keith,

832
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: the friend that you know, the he's just like stoked

833
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 2: that James scammed in Ivy League college and like not

834
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 2: some state school, Like, don't embarrass the state school. Stick

835
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: it to them. He's just like Grinnan all over himself.

836
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: And I love punch up. I love the contrast with

837
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: the offended Princeton kids, you know, like everyone else, all

838
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: the working folks, They're like, this is entertaining. He's a

839
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: folk hero. Good for him. So in the following years,

840
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: like James tangled with the law a bunch of times.

841
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: He also participated in the documentary and was interviewed by

842
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: David Samuels for The New Yorker. He's enigmatic in all

843
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: of it, the crimes, the confession. He's always truthful when confronted,

844
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: Like we said, but you get this sense that he's

845
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: just sort of out of step with time and place.

846
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: I was just about to say, he feels like he

847
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: was pulled from a different time and roped here. He said,

848
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: make do.

849
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: He wants to be alone, and he values his privacy.

850
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 2: He wanted to get like this huge swath of land

851
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: and build a cabin and be self sufficient. And he's

852
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: really interesting in the documentary of just like trying to

853
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: explain himself, but then he won't. He just kind of

854
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: gives these little smirks when he doesn't want to talk

855
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 2: about stuff. He got busted for living in makeshift shacks

856
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: and aspen because he's still.

857
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: Kind of like basically doing his cowboy thing right, and

858
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: he goes back to like he can sleep outdoors. He

859
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: can sleep.

860
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: When you take all the like garbage away. He's a

861
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: guy who likes to be outdoors, can sleep outside in

862
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 2: the ground. Very self sufficient, incredible athlete, and brilliant. The

863
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: guy he's just like acing it everywhere he goes so

864
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: like he no, it's not and he's just out of step,

865
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 2: like he's just misplaced. So he's living in these makeshift shacks.

866
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: He keeps getting busted like he's stealing bike parts and

867
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: ski equipment other odds and ends, and he becomes this

868
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 2: sort of like bumming criminal figure and Aspen. Over the years,

869
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 2: like the cops would show up to these like camouflage

870
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: little lean twos that he'd have in the middle of

871
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 2: the woods with like a cord running to an apartment

872
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: building and he'd jump out a window and they're like, James,

873
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of Yeah. The last I could track him

874
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: down was twenty twenty one. He was arrested by Aspen

875
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: police officers investigating a burglary and he got charged with

876
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: parking illegally and stealing power from a nearby apartment building.

877
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: And they didn't take him to jail, like there's such

878
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: a low level thing that they just gave him a

879
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: summons for trespassing and tampering. And I haven't been able

880
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: to find anything since. I wish him well, really, I

881
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: do have a question for you, though. Have you ever

882
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: thought about what it would be like to go back

883
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: in your life and do things over with the knowledge

884
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: you have now.

885
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: I've been asked that a couple of times, Like it's

886
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: just like a general like get to know your question,

887
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: like hey, would you rather this or rather that? Or

888
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: like could you imagine? And I've thought about this like

889
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: in earnestness, like I think it wouldn't be as much

890
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: fun because the part of the discovery process, like the

891
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: first time is so memorable because it's different than all

892
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: the rest and what follows it that I wouldn't want

893
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: to go back and try to like fake a first time.

894
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: It's something, you know what I mean? Like the part

895
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: of the not knowing is part of the magic. So

896
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: if I knew something, I don't think anything would feel

897
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: valuable or real. I don't think it would actually affect

898
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: me because it's like a marionetted reality, Like I'm controlling

899
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: all the strings, so it's not real and I know it,

900
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: and I can't convince myself that the reaction is real

901
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: if I'm tricking people, like I would be aware of

902
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: the strings even if they're not. So I don't think

903
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: that I could go back in time. You know, if

904
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: I could turn back time, I got to bring it back,

905
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 1: I would not because it wouldn't do much, and I

906
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: would go to a different time.

907
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, I would.

908
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: Rather go if you had time travel, Rather than going

909
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: back into my own life and redoing something, or going

910
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: back and pretending to be like a college student or whatever.

911
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: I'd much rather go and see what like eighteen thirty

912
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: was like you and a certain not in America, but

913
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: in other places. I would like to see. I know

914
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: what it was like in America, But so that's it.

915
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: What about you would you want to go back.

916
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: And be yourself? I think about it a lot. Did

917
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 2: you specifically want to be Yeah, like I could imagine

918
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: like going back to college and not skipping as many classes,

919
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: like actually applying myself sure, and having like a wiser

920
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 2: outlook on life and people and relationships. Absolutely being savvy

921
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: when originally I was anything but right. So I, you know,

922
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: getting to try things over again, or like seeing things

923
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 2: with a clearer understanding.

924
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: I do like to do things twice.

925
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: I'll try anything twice.

926
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean like I liked if I'm going to

927
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: do something, I often enjoy it the second time more

928
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: than the first.

929
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you watch TV shows over.

930
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: All sorts of stuff. I go to city. I've lived

931
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: in cities twice. I mean like there's a lot of

932
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: things that I do twice. So I don't mind going

933
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: and trying something again. But it's different, you know what

934
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean. I'm just better at it.

935
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like the notion of being able to rewrite it.

936
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

937
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: And I feel like James got to try that out

938
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: feel really good to do it this way.

939
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it that way, and then he

940
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: also got to I mean I wonder if it made

941
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: him feel anything. You know, those students thinking he was cool?

942
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: If you yeah, what what did it feel like standing

943
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: there having the champagne raining down on you?

944
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: I think that one probably did feel good because it's

945
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: such a like a culmination of his own things. But

946
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: I'm saying is the people he tricked. I know that

947
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: essentially he tricked them to get in, but I mean, like,

948
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: I think he would feel like not that he'd earned it,

949
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: but then he was special and that they're recognizing that

950
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: when he's actually conning people. I wonder if it felt anything.

951
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It'd be interesting to find out.

952
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: I don't think we.

953
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: Ever will, No, not unless we can find him.

954
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 2: Dave, I need to talk back.

955
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 5: Oh God, I went get.

956
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: Hi Sarn, Elizabeth, producer Dye, and the interns who may

957
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 4: or may not be dogs. I was listening to the

958
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 4: episode with a side of chow chow the kidnapping of

959
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 4: Elton B. Stevens Junior this morning, and I had to

960
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: laugh because my husband and I have a running joke

961
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 4: about the Curse of Oak Island that every episode is

962
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 4: the same, So whenever we see a preview or airing

963
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 4: this Friday episode with clips I'll be like, I've seen

964
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 4: that already because every episode is the same, and I

965
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 4: think that's really.

966
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: You feel me? Are that shows?

967
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: And with that we shall end things. You can find

968
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 2: us online at Ridiculous Crime dot com. Did you know

969
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 2: that with every click of the mouse we plant a tree?

970
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 3: I did not know that us in magical for us,

971
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 3: that's awesome.

972
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 2: Every time someone clicks the mouse on Ridiculous time.

973
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: Dot com an actual physical mouse.

974
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: There's a mouse that runs around and you have to

975
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: try and find me with your mouse. Yeah. We're also

976
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: at Ridiculous Crime on both bluesky and Instagram Bluski and

977
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 2: you can email us at Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,

978
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: uh producer Dave, and then also leave us a talkback

979
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: on the iHeart app. I love those. You have no

980
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: idea how much I love these talkbacks reach out. Ridiculous

981
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 2: Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced

982
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: and edited by President of Princeton University Dave Kusten, starring

983
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 2: Annals Rutger as Judath. Research is by Professor of Coolness

984
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: Mursa Brown and Writing Center Assistant Alex French. The theme

985
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: song is by Princeton University track team Sockboys Thomas Lee

986
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 2: and Travis Dutt. Post wardrobe is provided by Botany five

987
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: hundred guest here and makeup by Sparkleshot and mister Andre.

988
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: Executive produce this our philosopher Goat Wrangler Ben Bollen and

989
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 2: Ashram chemistry tutor Noel Brown.

990
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 4: Ridicous Crime, Say It One More Time Ridiquious Crime.

991
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts.

992
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

993
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.