WEBVTT - The Mystery of Mastery with Adam Gopnik 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.316 Pushkin Hello, Hello everyone, Malcolm Glable here. You may have 0:00:25.396 --> 0:00:28.516 noticed that Revisionist History looks a little different this season, 0:00:29.196 --> 0:00:31.876 more things in your podcast feed, but I want to 0:00:31.876 --> 0:00:34.796 make clear you're still going to get your annual dose 0:00:34.836 --> 0:00:39.236 of ten scripted revisionist history jewel boxes. It's just that 0:00:39.596 --> 0:00:41.916 people kept coming up to me in the subway and saying, 0:00:42.236 --> 0:00:46.196 why can't we have more revisionist history, And finally I thought, 0:00:46.996 --> 0:00:49.996 like the man said, give the people what they want. 0:00:50.996 --> 0:00:53.756 So coming up this year we had the standard old 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:58.156 school revisionist history lineup, including some on education, a crazy 0:00:58.156 --> 0:01:00.716 one about mothers, and a bunch on guns. And I'm 0:01:00.836 --> 0:01:04.396 very excited about it. But we're also doing more episodes 0:01:04.676 --> 0:01:07.356 answering your questions or arguing with you with the help 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:12.156 of our embarrassingly overqualified ombus person, Maria Konikova. You can 0:01:12.196 --> 0:01:15.796 reach us by the way and Maria at info at 0:01:16.076 --> 0:01:19.596 Pushkin dot fm if you have questions or concerns or 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:23.196 just want a rant for a while. And one of 0:01:23.196 --> 0:01:25.636 my favorite things we're doing though, is we're bringing you 0:01:25.676 --> 0:01:29.396 a series of conversations live talks or taped live anyway 0:01:29.556 --> 0:01:32.316 with people I admire, people I want to learn something 0:01:32.356 --> 0:01:35.396 from and who I think you'll enjoy as well. We 0:01:35.516 --> 0:01:38.156 had an amazing reaction to the chat with Justin Richmond. 0:01:38.356 --> 0:01:40.836 If you haven't heard that yet, please go back and listen. 0:01:43.156 --> 0:01:46.156 This week and next we're running a match set of 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:49.756 revisionist history live conversations we taped at the ninety second 0:01:49.796 --> 0:01:54.156 Street Y in New York. The first Today's episode was 0:01:54.196 --> 0:01:57.476 with my old friend New Yorker magazine colleague, and most 0:01:57.476 --> 0:02:01.796 crucially fellow Canadian, Adam Gopnick. Maybe you know his most 0:02:01.836 --> 0:02:04.596 famous book, Paris to the Moon, or perhaps you saw 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:08.516 his cameo in the film Tar, where he played himself 0:02:09.436 --> 0:02:13.236 convincingly How might add Adam is a new book, The 0:02:13.276 --> 0:02:16.796 Real Work on the Mystery of Mastery, in which he 0:02:16.876 --> 0:02:19.996 follows masters of their craft to find out just how 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.036 they do what they do. So here we go my 0:02:23.196 --> 0:02:26.316 conversation with the one and only Adam Gopnick. 0:02:34.116 --> 0:02:37.196 Thank you all for coming, Adam, it's. 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:38.316 A pleasure to see you. Malcolm. 0:02:38.316 --> 0:02:41.996 It's the first time we've been together, certainly since the pandemic. 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:44.836 Yes, the last time we were on stage together was 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:50.556 Were we not both debating the proposition that cats were 0:02:50.596 --> 0:02:52.436 better than dogs or dogs are better than cats. 0:02:52.476 --> 0:02:55.676 We were, and I took the dog side. I took 0:02:55.676 --> 0:02:57.756 the cat, and you took the cat's side. And I 0:02:57.916 --> 0:03:04.316 ended my puration, my claim by saying that you had 0:03:04.356 --> 0:03:06.556 to understand that not only was it the case that 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:10.476 on the merit it's all cats were Republicans and all 0:03:10.476 --> 0:03:13.436 dogs were Democrats, but you also had to understand that 0:03:13.476 --> 0:03:16.836 all cats were Buyish and all dogs were Jewish. And 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:20.236 somehow we won the debate in the middle of Manhattan. 0:03:20.276 --> 0:03:22.116 It was the dirtiest thing somehow you wanted to be. 0:03:22.396 --> 0:03:23.836 I was going to say it was the dirtiest that. 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:25.596 Is by appealing to Jewish democrats. 0:03:26.876 --> 0:03:28.956 Well, there are so few of them in New York. 0:03:29.076 --> 0:03:32.756 You know that it showed some bravery. 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:38.276 You were, yes, playing to the crowd. I suspect there'll 0:03:38.276 --> 0:03:40.076 be more than a little of that tonight as well. 0:03:40.356 --> 0:03:43.356 We're here to discuss your book, but as it's always 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:46.476 the case, we shouldn't really just discuss the book tonight, 0:03:46.516 --> 0:03:48.756 because we want people to read the book. Yes, so 0:03:48.916 --> 0:03:50.316 I thought we'd talk around the book. 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:52.836 Absolutely, it's a book to talk around. 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:54.836 And I want to do something very specific. 0:03:54.876 --> 0:03:57.436 But before I introduced the specific thing i'd like to 0:03:57.436 --> 0:04:02.396 do I'd like to offer an overly simplistic, highly reductionist 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:03.316 theory about. 0:04:03.156 --> 0:04:05.876 The difference between dogs and cats. 0:04:05.916 --> 0:04:10.556 No, no, between you and I? Or is it you 0:04:10.596 --> 0:04:12.316 and me? 0:04:12.316 --> 0:04:16.116 Me? Me? Yes, me, that would be one of the differences. 0:04:16.276 --> 0:04:21.156 Right, Yes, here's the theory. 0:04:21.316 --> 0:04:26.356 Right, I start with an idea, I'd like to explore, 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:30.316 search for someone to be kind of window dressing, someone 0:04:30.316 --> 0:04:32.756 appropriate to dress it up, and then pursue it. 0:04:32.956 --> 0:04:34.396 This is the problem with my writing, of. 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:38.596 Course, because the reader's senses halfway through that I've chosen 0:04:39.436 --> 0:04:42.796 the subject the person simply as a convenience to advance 0:04:42.876 --> 0:04:43.756 this agenda of mine. 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:45.756 I'm going to dispute that, But all right, you. 0:04:45.596 --> 0:04:46.516 Do the opposite. 0:04:47.156 --> 0:04:49.556 Essentially, all of your writing is about you meet someone, 0:04:49.596 --> 0:04:51.876 you fall in love with him, and then you come 0:04:51.956 --> 0:04:54.796 up with some elaborate theory to justify your affection for 0:04:54.836 --> 0:04:55.396 your character. 0:04:56.316 --> 0:05:01.276 That I will I will accept that as a roughly true. 0:05:01.756 --> 0:05:03.156 I think that there are a lot of people in 0:05:03.196 --> 0:05:04.876 your stuff, Malcolm, who live on you. 0:05:04.956 --> 0:05:07.676 We're not discussing me, all right. You can only discuss you, 0:05:07.676 --> 0:05:08.636 don't discuss your half. 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:12.076 I certainly think it's generally true. And I will say this, 0:05:12.196 --> 0:05:16.116 and I will I will say it with a certain 0:05:16.116 --> 0:05:21.116 amount of vanity that I love getting engaged with people, 0:05:21.276 --> 0:05:24.476 odd people, strange people, interesting people, and I you know, 0:05:24.556 --> 0:05:27.036 John Opdyke once said, you know, someone said what's the 0:05:27.076 --> 0:05:30.836 purpose of life? And he answered instantly to give praise? 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:33.276 And I always thought that was a beautiful. 0:05:33.276 --> 0:05:35.356 Well, this is exactly what I was going to say next, 0:05:35.396 --> 0:05:40.156 which is the other distinctive feature is of your writing, 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:42.276 is that all of your real pieces, as opposed to 0:05:42.316 --> 0:05:44.116 your critics pieces, which I don't mean they're not real, 0:05:44.156 --> 0:05:47.476 but I mean all the pieces of some journalists. 0:05:47.036 --> 0:05:48.636 That are not the higher homework. Right, yea. 0:05:49.396 --> 0:05:51.596 You always like the subject the subject. You're never at 0:05:51.636 --> 0:05:53.476 odd to the subject. And even when you are at 0:05:53.476 --> 0:05:56.836 obvious of the subject, you've got to great pains to 0:05:56.876 --> 0:05:58.156 suggest you're not really at allous. 0:05:58.156 --> 0:06:01.396 That just happens in his book, but he will get there. 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:03.676 Yes, Yes, that's interesting you say that, Malcolm. I've never 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:06.396 quite conceptualized it that way. I think it's true. 0:06:06.396 --> 0:06:09.916 You know, the great kind of transformative moment of my 0:06:09.956 --> 0:06:12.116 life as a writer, my life is a man as 0:06:12.156 --> 0:06:14.556 a person, was when I joined the New Yorker in 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:17.316 nineteen eighty six, and I was put to work writing 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:20.116 the Talk of the Town. Back in those days, Talk 0:06:20.156 --> 0:06:23.716 of the Town was beautifully anonymous. That was part of 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:27.596 the glory of it, because John McPhee would contribute, or 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:30.236 John Updyke, and then you know, a little schnor like 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:32.796 me would be thrown into the mix as well. And 0:06:33.756 --> 0:06:36.356 it was the great epiphany of my life because up 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:38.916 until that moment I had been a graduate student. I mean, 0:06:39.196 --> 0:06:40.836 my whole life, I'd been a graduate student. I was 0:06:40.836 --> 0:06:42.876 a graduate student when I was six years old because 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:44.556 I come from an like you, I come from an 0:06:44.556 --> 0:06:47.956 academic family, and that was the way I had been raised, 0:06:48.196 --> 0:06:51.636 you know, pursuing a PhD since third grade, and the 0:06:53.116 --> 0:06:56.076 way you become, the way you're trained and taught to 0:06:56.156 --> 0:07:00.636 think and write is argumentative through buts my sister, Allison, 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:04.156 brilliant mind still works that way, right. Somebody says something 0:07:04.356 --> 0:07:07.236 and you controvert it, you say, but on the other hand, 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:09.756 that's not entirely true. People say that parenting is the 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.156 most important thing in the world, but in truth, you 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:12.716 can't parent. 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:15.956 The difference between improv and academia, yeah, academia is. 0:07:17.596 --> 0:07:21.876 Yes, but yes, improv yes, And and that's what I 0:07:21.996 --> 0:07:24.436 realized when I was thrown out onto the streets to 0:07:24.476 --> 0:07:27.516 go cover table hockey tournaments in Flatbush and wonderful editor 0:07:27.596 --> 0:07:31.956 Chipmograph and you know slack rope walkers lived on house 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:34.436 boats in the Hudson is that you couldn't argue with 0:07:34.516 --> 0:07:35.116 these people. 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:38.556 You had to illuminate them. You had to caricature them 0:07:38.596 --> 0:07:40.916 at times in a positive sense. You had to draw 0:07:40.996 --> 0:07:43.516 quick portraits of them. But yes, exactly, it was yes, 0:07:43.596 --> 0:07:46.356 and and that the only way to write beautifully, the 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:50.916 only way to write descriptively, evocatively, significantly, was to construct small, 0:07:50.956 --> 0:07:56.996 descriptive sentences connected by Ann's not long contentious sentences disrupted 0:07:57.036 --> 0:08:00.116 by butts. And that moment of moving from one to 0:08:00.156 --> 0:08:01.476 the other was the great moment in mind. 0:08:01.476 --> 0:08:03.516 You were the first person to come to the New 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:05.156 Yorker and be forced to dumb it down. 0:08:06.516 --> 0:08:08.716 Well, yes, there's a truth in that, but dumb it 0:08:08.756 --> 0:08:12.036 down on not in the in ultimate sense. To embrace 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:15.356 a form of if you like, phone naive writing, To 0:08:15.516 --> 0:08:18.516 embrace a form of minimalism, that wonderful New York And 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:21.956 tradition that extends from eb White and Thurber right into 0:08:22.116 --> 0:08:24.236 my fingers. At least if no one else is, and 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:28.276 that with many others, but I mean I esteem it particularly, 0:08:28.476 --> 0:08:30.316 So Yes, I think that's true, and I think it's 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:33.596 one of the things that makes the New Yorker tradition remarkable, 0:08:33.716 --> 0:08:38.036 is the is its insistence, or it's implied insistence through 0:08:38.036 --> 0:08:42.276 a tradition that the best writing are small, descriptive sentences 0:08:42.316 --> 0:08:43.356 connected by ants. 0:08:43.716 --> 0:08:44.956 Okay, so here's what I want to do. 0:08:45.076 --> 0:08:48.956 Yes, I'm just gonna I'm just going to name names 0:08:49.276 --> 0:08:51.796 from the book, and I would like you to tell 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:55.796 us something about your relationship with that character. But how 0:08:55.836 --> 0:08:58.036 you met them, why you like them, what they're like. 0:08:58.316 --> 0:09:00.436 You don't need to touch on their role in the book. 0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:01.356 You can get there. 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:04.596 But there's all these there's a ton of names, and 0:09:04.596 --> 0:09:07.516 I'm going to pick them more or less at random, 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:09.636 and then some of them my moony pick because I 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:11.396 have things I want to say about them, just so 0:09:11.436 --> 0:09:12.836 I can be involved in this conversation. 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:17.476 But let's start with your mother. 0:09:18.156 --> 0:09:21.276 Oh, my mother? Where to begin with my mother? 0:09:21.916 --> 0:09:25.556 First? Describe your mother, like physically, physically. 0:09:25.076 --> 0:09:30.116 My mother is a small woman who is, among other things, 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:34.236 was a professor of linguistic It's a very distinguished scientist 0:09:35.156 --> 0:09:40.236 instrumental discovering the first gene for Grammar HOFX and P. 0:09:40.556 --> 0:09:42.116 We all had to learn the name of it when 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:44.436 we were children. But she's a small one. 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:48.556 She also designs jewelry, and she wears somewhat eccentric clothing. 0:09:48.636 --> 0:09:51.036 So if you saw her, you'd see this woman with long, 0:09:51.116 --> 0:09:53.956 unkempt hair, looks atle like Stregananona, who's wearing all of 0:09:53.996 --> 0:09:56.356 this avant garde jewelry. You can't really approach her to 0:09:56.436 --> 0:09:58.756 hug her because it's too dangerous. The jewelry is a 0:09:58.796 --> 0:10:03.956 little like barbed wire and is an in constant activity, 0:10:04.036 --> 0:10:06.676 constant active. And I should add that she's, you know, 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:08.756 a little more subdued now at eighty eight than she 0:10:08.836 --> 0:10:11.036 used to be in the book, I go up to 0:10:11.156 --> 0:10:13.436 bake with her because I had never done that. I 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:15.796 have a complicated relationship with her. I don't mean to 0:10:15.356 --> 0:10:17.996 be sacriine about it at all. You know, we're very 0:10:18.076 --> 0:10:21.756 much alike. And she's a driven person, as am I 0:10:21.796 --> 0:10:24.636 in lots of ways, in every way. But she's an 0:10:24.676 --> 0:10:29.116 amazing baker, and she's an amazingly inventive. 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:29.716 And impatient person. 0:10:30.156 --> 0:10:32.596 And I thought in this book and in life generally 0:10:32.716 --> 0:10:35.396 that the best way I could connect with her was 0:10:36.076 --> 0:10:39.076 through a shared activity. It's always been only the best 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:41.516 way to connect with her. You know, can't really can't 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:44.116 really talk with her. I mean, of course you can, 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:46.476 but I have a conversation. But the happiest moments were 0:10:46.556 --> 0:10:49.276 always when we were doing something together. I have this 0:10:49.356 --> 0:10:53.596 incredibly intense memory, which is the book begins with, of 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.956 when I'm really little with my I have many sisters, 0:10:56.956 --> 0:10:59.796 but this is my sister Allison, and she was unrolling 0:10:59.956 --> 0:11:03.116 strudle on a table. 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:05.396 We were living in a housing project at that point, and. 0:11:05.436 --> 0:11:08.836 Just watching her looking up and watching her unroll this 0:11:09.196 --> 0:11:11.596 rule and make it kind of parchment thin. I thought, 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:15.036 that's real. That was my first experience of mastery. That's 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:15.436 my mother. 0:11:15.916 --> 0:11:17.316 Since you're talking about you, whether I want to test 0:11:17.316 --> 0:11:21.236 seven ideo. Recently, I have come to believe in the 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:27.996 asymmetrical theory of parental memories, which is that everyone, when pressed, 0:11:28.516 --> 0:11:31.076 has way more memories of one parent than the other. 0:11:31.356 --> 0:11:33.796 So we all have one not that we one parent 0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:37.916 that we favor, no, but one parent who is who 0:11:38.516 --> 0:11:41.876 is vivid, yes, who consumes all of our kind of storytelling. 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:44.756 In your case, your mother and your work has loomed 0:11:44.796 --> 0:11:45.676 much larger than your father. 0:11:45.876 --> 0:11:48.556 Yes, although even though in fact I'm extremely close to 0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:52.316 my father and admire him limitlessly, dedicated the book on 0:11:52.356 --> 0:11:54.316 Liberalism to him because he had taught me all of 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:57.036 those things. But my father is, in his nature a 0:11:57.036 --> 0:12:00.716 more recessive person than my mother. There is one chapter 0:12:00.756 --> 0:12:02.556 that's very much about my father in this and it's 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:04.956 the first time I've ever really written about him about 0:12:05.156 --> 0:12:07.636 learning to drive, because when I was learning to drive 0:12:07.756 --> 0:12:11.716 in my fifties, with my son Luke getting we got 0:12:11.756 --> 0:12:14.236 our licenses on the same day. I believe that's the 0:12:14.236 --> 0:12:16.916 only time that's ever happened. And my father was haunting 0:12:16.916 --> 0:12:19.396 me the whole time. Because my father is the most 0:12:19.516 --> 0:12:22.236 gently competent human being you will meet. And one of 0:12:22.276 --> 0:12:24.516 the things was he had been driving since he was fourteen, 0:12:24.756 --> 0:12:26.436 and he was the sort of person who thought nothing. 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:29.636 You know, he has six kids and twenty grandchildren of 0:12:29.756 --> 0:12:33.956 driving to a grandchild in Baltimore from rural Ontario where 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:37.396 they live for nineteen hours, and we just would do 0:12:37.516 --> 0:12:40.196 things like that. He was an utterly competent man. And 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:42.516 I think we all make ourselves a little bit in 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.676 the shadow of our father's accomplishments, but also by bending 0:12:46.716 --> 0:12:49.516 away from the shadow into our own sunshine. So my 0:12:49.596 --> 0:12:52.956 father was so super competent in all those ways that 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:58.116 I made myself notably incompetent in the little tasks of life. 0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:01.716 So my wife Martha did all the driving in our family, 0:13:01.756 --> 0:13:04.476 and I was the one in the as my daughter Olivia, 0:13:04.476 --> 0:13:06.996 who's here someplace? And I would point out the gendered seat, 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:09.276 which we usually assigned to women in our culture. Sure 0:13:09.276 --> 0:13:12.556 where I'm the one passing out the cookies and saying, hey, kids, kids, 0:13:12.556 --> 0:13:14.676 got to be quiet. Mom's trying to find the exit. Now, 0:13:14.956 --> 0:13:16.916 you know when we would be that will be there soon. 0:13:16.996 --> 0:13:20.076 I promise you will be there soon. Let mom concentrate. 0:13:20.316 --> 0:13:23.756 And I was in that seat for decades, and then 0:13:23.796 --> 0:13:25.836 I wanted to just nudge over to the other seat 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:27.836 a bit. And so that was very much about my father, 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:30.676 But absolutely my mother is the vivid person. 0:13:30.796 --> 0:13:33.156 All right, all right, next name on the list. None 0:13:33.196 --> 0:13:35.836 of us knew him, but both of us are fascinated 0:13:35.836 --> 0:13:38.636 by him. Bud Schulberg. Oh we do a Bud Scholberg 0:13:38.716 --> 0:13:39.196 shout out. 0:13:39.276 --> 0:13:41.076 We should definitely do a Bud Shoulberg shout out. 0:13:41.116 --> 0:13:43.276 We're better than at the Why I've been trying to 0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:46.076 get the Library of America to put Bud Schulberg in print, 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:48.636 you know, for a while, and maybe I still can't. 0:13:48.676 --> 0:13:53.556 Bud Schulberg, as all of you will know, was a writer, 0:13:53.676 --> 0:13:56.836 a journalist, most famous as a screenwriter, wrote the screenplay 0:13:56.876 --> 0:13:59.116 for On the Waterfront and other things. 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:00.956 But he wrote one of the most beautiful and. 0:14:00.916 --> 0:14:05.796 Forgotten novels in American English, called The Disenchanted, about his 0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:09.676 bizarre adventures writing a screenplay with the then on the 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.916 brink of death Scott Fitzgerald. And it's the most beautiful 0:14:12.996 --> 0:14:16.636 portrait of Scot Fitzgerald that we have, and remarkable. 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:17.996 Guy, and his stuff should be back in print. 0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:24.156 And I suspect quick parenthetical that his name hurt him. 0:14:24.316 --> 0:14:26.956 One of my pet theories is that writers are very 0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:29.876 dependent on their names. Right, there's a moment there was 0:14:29.916 --> 0:14:32.916 a Dr Johnson says someplace that there was a poet 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:35.876 laureate in England named Elkana Settle, and no one could 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:37.676 ever believe that he could write a good poem with 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:39.076 a name like el Conna Settle. 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:41.676 And I have struggled with this my whole life. 0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:44.636 Because Gopnik has got to be the single ugliest, most 0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:47.876 non euphonious name there is. And Bud Sholberg, right, it 0:14:47.956 --> 0:14:50.676 sounds like a guy who runs a store, right, Whereas 0:14:50.716 --> 0:14:53.276 you know, J. D. Salinger is clearly a writer of you. 0:14:53.916 --> 0:14:55.516 So that's something we all say. 0:14:55.556 --> 0:14:57.796 There should be a version of Elis Island for writers. 0:14:58.116 --> 0:15:02.756 Yes, exactly, exactly, that's the whole story there about why 0:15:02.756 --> 0:15:04.796 the name got didn't get changed at Elis Island. 0:15:04.796 --> 0:15:06.236 But I'll spare you for the moment. 0:15:08.396 --> 0:15:12.156 Jamie Swiss, Oh, Jamie Swiss is a different I just 0:15:12.236 --> 0:15:15.916 was texting with him. Jamie is the most gifted and 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:20.436 most irascible magician there's ever been. He's a true intellectual 0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:23.316 of the magic world, and he is a truly contentious person. 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:26.396 And what I love about Jamie's is he's a magnificent 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:29.636 sleight of handman, a great teacher. He taught my son 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:33.356 Luke card magic, and he was the most exacting, demanding 0:15:33.396 --> 0:15:37.836 and rewarding, replenishing teacher you could possibly have. But Jamie's 0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:42.676 just a beautifully irascible person who cannot take anything lightly. 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:45.356 You know, as you know I say in the book someplace, 0:15:45.436 --> 0:15:48.676 you know that people don't take magicians seriously right. And 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:50.116 they go up to the magicians say oh, I know 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:52.796 how you did that, which is like going up to 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:54.516 yo yo ma and saying, oh, I know how you 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:57.516 did that. You just scraped that thing along the strings, 0:15:57.516 --> 0:15:59.276 didn't you. I know how you did that. I have 0:15:59.316 --> 0:16:01.636 an uncle who does the same thing all the time. 0:16:02.036 --> 0:16:04.836 And most magicians just kind of bite their lips and say, 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:07.836 oh good, And I'm glad to hear that. And Jamie 0:16:07.916 --> 0:16:09.356 is the one that says, you have no idea, Yeah, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:11.996 how the fuck I did that? You have no fucking 0:16:12.076 --> 0:16:14.916 idea how I did that, So don't tell me you do. 0:16:15.436 --> 0:16:19.356 And he's a contentious magician and it's wonderful and he's brilliant. 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:21.876 He's one of my dearest friends, and I love him 0:16:22.036 --> 0:16:26.556 exactly because he takes magic at the most serious and 0:16:26.596 --> 0:16:30.516 conceivable level and won't allow it to be minimized or 0:16:30.556 --> 0:16:33.316 condescended to though he did say to me once, the 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:36.156 only reason mimes exists is so the magicians have someone 0:16:36.196 --> 0:16:38.116 to patronize. 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:42.436 What I love about your the best way. The chapter 0:16:42.436 --> 0:16:46.236 of this book on magic is magic. It's the thing 0:16:46.276 --> 0:16:49.196 that I never really understood about magic until you wrote 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:52.476 about it. And I could never tell whether this is 0:16:52.516 --> 0:16:55.596 true of magic or just true of you on magic, 0:16:55.996 --> 0:16:59.556 which is that all these magicians, at least the ones 0:16:59.596 --> 0:17:05.396 you writ about, have thought so deeply and beautifully and 0:17:05.436 --> 0:17:08.836 profoundly about their craft in a way that no other 0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:12.596 you know, I've just spent for pat of reasons the 0:17:12.676 --> 0:17:16.876 last couple of weeks months really interviewing one trauma surgeon 0:17:16.916 --> 0:17:20.836 after another. Uh, and trauma surgents are incredibly interesting. 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:23.156 The work they do is really, really, really really hard. 0:17:23.796 --> 0:17:26.796 The technology changes every and technique changes every ten minutes. 0:17:27.036 --> 0:17:27.556 But they don't. 0:17:28.436 --> 0:17:32.396 They're not talking about it on a philosophical level. It's 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:37.276 they've taken something that's beautifully powerfully complicated and they have 0:17:37.396 --> 0:17:39.716 made it intensely practical. 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:42.036 And they talk about it well. Shop talk is the 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:44.556 most beautiful talk that there is. One of the reasons 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.076 writers are so occupationally miserable, it's because we have no 0:17:48.116 --> 0:17:52.236 shop talk really to talk about, right, talk about keyboards, computers, 0:17:52.556 --> 0:17:55.596 advances and publishers, and then that's it, right, we don't. 0:17:55.956 --> 0:17:57.836 Magicians have the most beautiful. 0:17:57.396 --> 0:18:00.076 And rapturous shop talk of anyone because they can only 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:02.356 talk about it to other magicians. They have a high 0:18:02.396 --> 0:18:05.876 level of trauma surgeon like technique. But they can't tell 0:18:06.196 --> 0:18:07.996 you or me about it. They can only talk about 0:18:07.996 --> 0:18:11.236 it to other magicians. There's an intensity, an intellectual intensity, 0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:13.716 of what they do. I will add as well, of course, 0:18:13.756 --> 0:18:18.316 and this is the implicit, if tenderly loving accusation you're making. 0:18:18.556 --> 0:18:21.436 I seek out the intellectual magicians, and they seek and 0:18:21.476 --> 0:18:22.956 they choose to speak to me. 0:18:24.956 --> 0:18:27.476 What is it that drew you to magic? Was it 0:18:27.516 --> 0:18:29.556 that did Luke discovered? Or did you Luke? 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:33.316 It was simultaneously that my son Luke discovered magic and 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:37.716 found that he gave him far more meaning, accomplishment, significance 0:18:37.756 --> 0:18:39.916 than anything he was studying in school. So I was 0:18:39.996 --> 0:18:43.996 drawn into it through Luke's obsessive interest in magic. But 0:18:44.076 --> 0:18:46.436 then I loved it too once I started going to 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:49.836 Monday Night Magic and other things too, because it seemed 0:18:49.836 --> 0:18:54.476 like such a model of art of a very modest kind. 0:18:54.516 --> 0:18:58.356 You know, magicians aren't because they feel oppressed all the time. 0:18:58.676 --> 0:19:02.996 But the idea that you would have a profound technique 0:19:03.356 --> 0:19:06.756 that you kept to yourself, the idea that your primary 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:13.636 impulse was to entertain rather than to impress or to intimidate, 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:15.756 That that would be that you would have all of 0:19:15.796 --> 0:19:18.076 these skills, but you would use them for the purposes 0:19:18.076 --> 0:19:21.556 of delight. That spoke somehow to my ideals for writing 0:19:21.596 --> 0:19:24.196 and my ideals for art generally. And I was very taken, 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:26.916 instantly taken by the company of magicians. 0:19:26.916 --> 0:19:28.396 I loved the company of magicians. 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:30.996 The people I most have enjoyed hanging out with in 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:33.916 life are magicians and cooks, and they have a great 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:34.516 deal in common. 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:34.956 They both. 0:19:35.236 --> 0:19:38.116 There's an artisanal basis to everything they do. They are 0:19:38.196 --> 0:19:41.356 expert at doing something. But there and there tend to 0:19:41.356 --> 0:19:45.516 be very temperamental people who have very difficult lives. Nothing 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.556 is harder than running a restaurant, except running a magic show. 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:53.596 And yet the whole purpose of their existence is to delight. 0:19:54.156 --> 0:19:57.196 And I find this something sort of noble and even 0:19:57.196 --> 0:19:57.996 saintly about that. 0:19:58.036 --> 0:19:58.356 I love it. 0:19:58.396 --> 0:20:01.996 There's no high theory attached to the cookiechef. 0:20:02.476 --> 0:20:03.436 Oh yeah, there is. 0:20:03.476 --> 0:20:06.716 If you get chefs talking that, you know, I don't 0:20:06.716 --> 0:20:08.596 have it as much in this book. But you get 0:20:08.676 --> 0:20:12.796 chefs to talking about the ethics of seasonality or what 0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:15.716 counts as local and what doesn't, or you even get 0:20:15.716 --> 0:20:19.276 them talking about whether you have tarragon leaves or Tarragon 0:20:19.436 --> 0:20:20.916 stems in a Brene sauce. 0:20:21.156 --> 0:20:23.636 They'll go on forever. You know. They have the same 0:20:23.756 --> 0:20:26.316 kind of passionate chop talk which I love to hear. 0:20:29.836 --> 0:20:32.916 More from the real work on the mystery of Mastery 0:20:33.276 --> 0:20:52.916 in a moment. Now back to my conversation on Mastery 0:20:53.156 --> 0:20:55.716 with Adam Gopnik at the ninety second Street Y in 0:20:55.756 --> 0:20:56.196 New York. 0:20:58.116 --> 0:21:01.716 George Plimpton. I bring him up only because. 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:06.036 In this book, Adam goes in a series of quests 0:21:07.156 --> 0:21:15.996 to master certain activities baking, boxing, magic, et cetera. Driving, drawing, Uh, 0:21:16.116 --> 0:21:19.036