1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello everyone, Malcolm Glable here. You may have 2 00:00:25,396 --> 00:00:28,516 Speaker 1: noticed that Revisionist History looks a little different this season, 3 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 1: more things in your podcast feed, but I want to 4 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 1: make clear you're still going to get your annual dose 5 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:39,236 Speaker 1: of ten scripted revisionist history jewel boxes. It's just that 6 00:00:39,596 --> 00:00:41,916 Speaker 1: people kept coming up to me in the subway and saying, 7 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,196 Speaker 1: why can't we have more revisionist history, And finally I thought, 8 00:00:46,996 --> 00:00:49,996 Speaker 1: like the man said, give the people what they want. 9 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:53,756 Speaker 1: So coming up this year we had the standard old 10 00:00:53,836 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: school revisionist history lineup, including some on education, a crazy 11 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:00,716 Speaker 1: one about mothers, and a bunch on guns. And I'm 12 00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: very excited about it. But we're also doing more episodes 13 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:07,356 Speaker 1: answering your questions or arguing with you with the help 14 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:12,156 Speaker 1: of our embarrassingly overqualified ombus person, Maria Konikova. You can 15 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 1: reach us by the way and Maria at info at 16 00:01:16,076 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin dot fm if you have questions or concerns or 17 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:23,196 Speaker 1: just want a rant for a while. And one of 18 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: my favorite things we're doing though, is we're bringing you 19 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: a series of conversations live talks or taped live anyway 20 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:32,316 Speaker 1: with people I admire, people I want to learn something 21 00:01:32,356 --> 00:01:35,396 Speaker 1: from and who I think you'll enjoy as well. We 22 00:01:35,516 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: had an amazing reaction to the chat with Justin Richmond. 23 00:01:38,356 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard that yet, please go back and listen. 24 00:01:43,156 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: This week and next we're running a match set of 25 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:49,756 Speaker 1: revisionist history live conversations we taped at the ninety second 26 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: Street Y in New York. The first Today's episode was 27 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,476 Speaker 1: with my old friend New Yorker magazine colleague, and most 28 00:01:57,476 --> 00:02:01,796 Speaker 1: crucially fellow Canadian, Adam Gopnick. Maybe you know his most 29 00:02:01,836 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 1: famous book, Paris to the Moon, or perhaps you saw 30 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 1: his cameo in the film Tar, where he played himself 31 00:02:09,436 --> 00:02:13,236 Speaker 1: convincingly How might add Adam is a new book, The 32 00:02:13,276 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: Real Work on the Mystery of Mastery, in which he 33 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: follows masters of their craft to find out just how 34 00:02:20,036 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 1: they do what they do. So here we go my 35 00:02:23,196 --> 00:02:26,316 Speaker 1: conversation with the one and only Adam Gopnick. 36 00:02:34,116 --> 00:02:37,196 Speaker 2: Thank you all for coming, Adam, it's. 37 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 3: A pleasure to see you. Malcolm. 38 00:02:38,316 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 4: It's the first time we've been together, certainly since the pandemic. 39 00:02:42,436 --> 00:02:44,836 Speaker 1: Yes, the last time we were on stage together was 40 00:02:45,476 --> 00:02:50,556 Speaker 1: Were we not both debating the proposition that cats were 41 00:02:50,596 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 1: better than dogs or dogs are better than cats. 42 00:02:52,476 --> 00:02:55,676 Speaker 4: We were, and I took the dog side. I took 43 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 4: the cat, and you took the cat's side. And I 44 00:02:57,916 --> 00:03:04,316 Speaker 4: ended my puration, my claim by saying that you had 45 00:03:04,356 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 4: to understand that not only was it the case that 46 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:10,476 Speaker 4: on the merit it's all cats were Republicans and all 47 00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:13,436 Speaker 4: dogs were Democrats, but you also had to understand that 48 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:16,836 Speaker 4: all cats were Buyish and all dogs were Jewish. And 49 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:20,236 Speaker 4: somehow we won the debate in the middle of Manhattan. 50 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 3: It was the dirtiest thing somehow you wanted to be. 51 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 3: I was going to say it was the dirtiest that. 52 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:25,596 Speaker 2: Is by appealing to Jewish democrats. 53 00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 4: Well, there are so few of them in New York. 54 00:03:29,076 --> 00:03:32,756 Speaker 4: You know that it showed some bravery. 55 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: You were, yes, playing to the crowd. I suspect there'll 56 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:40,076 Speaker 1: be more than a little of that tonight as well. 57 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 1: We're here to discuss your book, but as it's always 58 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 1: the case, we shouldn't really just discuss the book tonight, 59 00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: because we want people to read the book. Yes, so 60 00:03:48,916 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 1: I thought we'd talk around the book. 61 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:52,836 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's a book to talk around. 62 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 2: And I want to do something very specific. 63 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,436 Speaker 1: But before I introduced the specific thing i'd like to 64 00:03:57,436 --> 00:04:02,396 Speaker 1: do I'd like to offer an overly simplistic, highly reductionist 65 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: theory about. 66 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:05,876 Speaker 3: The difference between dogs and cats. 67 00:04:05,916 --> 00:04:10,556 Speaker 1: No, no, between you and I? Or is it you 68 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:12,316 Speaker 1: and me? 69 00:04:12,316 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 3: Me? Me? Yes, me, that would be one of the differences. 70 00:04:16,276 --> 00:04:21,156 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, here's the theory. 71 00:04:21,316 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 1: Right, I start with an idea, I'd like to explore, 72 00:04:27,076 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: search for someone to be kind of window dressing, someone 73 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: appropriate to dress it up, and then pursue it. 74 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 2: This is the problem with my writing, of. 75 00:04:34,356 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 1: Course, because the reader's senses halfway through that I've chosen 76 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 1: the subject the person simply as a convenience to advance 77 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:43,756 Speaker 1: this agenda of mine. 78 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 3: I'm going to dispute that, But all right, you. 79 00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:46,516 Speaker 2: Do the opposite. 80 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: Essentially, all of your writing is about you meet someone, 81 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 1: you fall in love with him, and then you come 82 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:54,796 Speaker 1: up with some elaborate theory to justify your affection for 83 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 1: your character. 84 00:04:56,316 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 3: That I will I will accept that as a roughly true. 85 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 4: I think that there are a lot of people in 86 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 4: your stuff, Malcolm, who live on you. 87 00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 2: We're not discussing me, all right. You can only discuss you, 88 00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:08,636 Speaker 2: don't discuss your half. 89 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 4: I certainly think it's generally true. And I will say this, 90 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 4: and I will I will say it with a certain 91 00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:21,116 Speaker 4: amount of vanity that I love getting engaged with people, 92 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 4: odd people, strange people, interesting people, and I you know, 93 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 4: John Opdyke once said, you know, someone said what's the 94 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:30,836 Speaker 4: purpose of life? And he answered instantly to give praise? 95 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:33,276 Speaker 4: And I always thought that was a beautiful. 96 00:05:33,276 --> 00:05:35,356 Speaker 1: Well, this is exactly what I was going to say next, 97 00:05:35,396 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 1: which is the other distinctive feature is of your writing, 98 00:05:40,236 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 1: is that all of your real pieces, as opposed to 99 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:44,116 Speaker 1: your critics pieces, which I don't mean they're not real, 100 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: but I mean all the pieces of some journalists. 101 00:05:47,036 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 3: That are not the higher homework. Right, yea. 102 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 1: You always like the subject the subject. You're never at 103 00:05:51,636 --> 00:05:53,476 Speaker 1: odd to the subject. And even when you are at 104 00:05:53,476 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 1: obvious of the subject, you've got to great pains to 105 00:05:56,876 --> 00:05:58,156 Speaker 1: suggest you're not really at allous. 106 00:05:58,156 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 2: That just happens in his book, but he will get there. 107 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, that's interesting you say that, Malcolm. I've never 108 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:06,396 Speaker 3: quite conceptualized it that way. I think it's true. 109 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 4: You know, the great kind of transformative moment of my 110 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:12,116 Speaker 4: life as a writer, my life is a man as 111 00:06:12,156 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 4: a person, was when I joined the New Yorker in 112 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:17,316 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six, and I was put to work writing 113 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:20,116 Speaker 4: the Talk of the Town. Back in those days, Talk 114 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 4: of the Town was beautifully anonymous. That was part of 115 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 4: the glory of it, because John McPhee would contribute, or 116 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 4: John Updyke, and then you know, a little schnor like 117 00:06:30,316 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 4: me would be thrown into the mix as well. And 118 00:06:33,756 --> 00:06:36,356 Speaker 4: it was the great epiphany of my life because up 119 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 4: until that moment I had been a graduate student. I mean, 120 00:06:39,196 --> 00:06:40,836 Speaker 4: my whole life, I'd been a graduate student. I was 121 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 4: a graduate student when I was six years old because 122 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:44,556 Speaker 4: I come from an like you, I come from an 123 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 4: academic family, and that was the way I had been raised, 124 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:51,636 Speaker 4: you know, pursuing a PhD since third grade, and the 125 00:06:53,116 --> 00:06:56,076 Speaker 4: way you become, the way you're trained and taught to 126 00:06:56,156 --> 00:07:00,636 Speaker 4: think and write is argumentative through buts my sister, Allison, 127 00:07:00,716 --> 00:07:04,156 Speaker 4: brilliant mind still works that way, right. Somebody says something 128 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 4: and you controvert it, you say, but on the other hand, 129 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:09,756 Speaker 4: that's not entirely true. People say that parenting is the 130 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 4: most important thing in the world, but in truth, you 131 00:07:12,196 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 4: can't parent. 132 00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 1: The difference between improv and academia, yeah, academia is. 133 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 5: Yes, but yes, improv yes, And and that's what I 134 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:24,436 Speaker 5: realized when I was thrown out onto the streets to 135 00:07:24,476 --> 00:07:27,516 Speaker 5: go cover table hockey tournaments in Flatbush and wonderful editor 136 00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 5: Chipmograph and you know slack rope walkers lived on house 137 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:34,436 Speaker 5: boats in the Hudson is that you couldn't argue with 138 00:07:34,516 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 5: these people. 139 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:38,556 Speaker 4: You had to illuminate them. You had to caricature them 140 00:07:38,596 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 4: at times in a positive sense. You had to draw 141 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:43,516 Speaker 4: quick portraits of them. But yes, exactly, it was yes, 142 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 4: and and that the only way to write beautifully, the 143 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:50,916 Speaker 4: only way to write descriptively, evocatively, significantly, was to construct small, 144 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:56,996 Speaker 4: descriptive sentences connected by Ann's not long contentious sentences disrupted 145 00:07:57,036 --> 00:08:00,116 Speaker 4: by butts. And that moment of moving from one to 146 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 4: the other was the great moment in mind. 147 00:08:01,476 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 1: You were the first person to come to the New 148 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:05,156 Speaker 1: Yorker and be forced to dumb it down. 149 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:08,716 Speaker 4: Well, yes, there's a truth in that, but dumb it 150 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 4: down on not in the in ultimate sense. To embrace 151 00:08:12,076 --> 00:08:15,356 Speaker 4: a form of if you like, phone naive writing, To 152 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 4: embrace a form of minimalism, that wonderful New York And 153 00:08:18,556 --> 00:08:21,956 Speaker 4: tradition that extends from eb White and Thurber right into 154 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:24,236 Speaker 4: my fingers. At least if no one else is, and 155 00:08:24,276 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 4: that with many others, but I mean I esteem it particularly, 156 00:08:28,476 --> 00:08:30,316 Speaker 4: So Yes, I think that's true, and I think it's 157 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:33,596 Speaker 4: one of the things that makes the New Yorker tradition remarkable, 158 00:08:33,716 --> 00:08:38,036 Speaker 4: is the is its insistence, or it's implied insistence through 159 00:08:38,036 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 4: a tradition that the best writing are small, descriptive sentences 160 00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 4: connected by ants. 161 00:08:43,716 --> 00:08:44,956 Speaker 2: Okay, so here's what I want to do. 162 00:08:45,076 --> 00:08:48,956 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm just gonna I'm just going to name names 163 00:08:49,276 --> 00:08:51,796 Speaker 1: from the book, and I would like you to tell 164 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 1: us something about your relationship with that character. But how 165 00:08:55,836 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: you met them, why you like them, what they're like. 166 00:08:58,316 --> 00:09:00,436 Speaker 1: You don't need to touch on their role in the book. 167 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:01,356 Speaker 2: You can get there. 168 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 1: But there's all these there's a ton of names, and 169 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:07,516 Speaker 1: I'm going to pick them more or less at random, 170 00:09:07,916 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 1: and then some of them my moony pick because I 171 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 1: have things I want to say about them, just so 172 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:12,836 Speaker 1: I can be involved in this conversation. 173 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 2: But let's start with your mother. 174 00:09:18,156 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 3: Oh, my mother? Where to begin with my mother? 175 00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 2: First? Describe your mother, like physically, physically. 176 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:30,116 Speaker 4: My mother is a small woman who is, among other things, 177 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 4: was a professor of linguistic It's a very distinguished scientist 178 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 4: instrumental discovering the first gene for Grammar HOFX and P. 179 00:09:40,556 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 3: We all had to learn the name of it when 180 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:44,436 Speaker 3: we were children. But she's a small one. 181 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:48,556 Speaker 4: She also designs jewelry, and she wears somewhat eccentric clothing. 182 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,036 Speaker 4: So if you saw her, you'd see this woman with long, 183 00:09:51,116 --> 00:09:53,956 Speaker 4: unkempt hair, looks atle like Stregananona, who's wearing all of 184 00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:56,356 Speaker 4: this avant garde jewelry. You can't really approach her to 185 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 4: hug her because it's too dangerous. The jewelry is a 186 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:03,956 Speaker 4: little like barbed wire and is an in constant activity, 187 00:10:04,036 --> 00:10:06,676 Speaker 4: constant active. And I should add that she's, you know, 188 00:10:06,716 --> 00:10:08,756 Speaker 4: a little more subdued now at eighty eight than she 189 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 4: used to be in the book, I go up to 190 00:10:11,156 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 4: bake with her because I had never done that. I 191 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 4: have a complicated relationship with her. I don't mean to 192 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:17,996 Speaker 4: be sacriine about it at all. You know, we're very 193 00:10:18,076 --> 00:10:21,756 Speaker 4: much alike. And she's a driven person, as am I 194 00:10:21,796 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 4: in lots of ways, in every way. But she's an 195 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:29,116 Speaker 4: amazing baker, and she's an amazingly inventive. 196 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 3: And impatient person. 197 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 4: And I thought in this book and in life generally 198 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 4: that the best way I could connect with her was 199 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:39,076 Speaker 4: through a shared activity. It's always been only the best 200 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:41,516 Speaker 4: way to connect with her. You know, can't really can't 201 00:10:41,556 --> 00:10:44,116 Speaker 4: really talk with her. I mean, of course you can, 202 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:46,476 Speaker 4: but I have a conversation. But the happiest moments were 203 00:10:46,556 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 4: always when we were doing something together. I have this 204 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 4: incredibly intense memory, which is the book begins with, of 205 00:10:53,796 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 4: when I'm really little with my I have many sisters, 206 00:10:56,956 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 4: but this is my sister Allison, and she was unrolling 207 00:10:59,956 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 4: strudle on a table. 208 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 3: We were living in a housing project at that point, and. 209 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 4: Just watching her looking up and watching her unroll this 210 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 4: rule and make it kind of parchment thin. I thought, 211 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 4: that's real. That was my first experience of mastery. That's 212 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 4: my mother. 213 00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:17,316 Speaker 1: Since you're talking about you, whether I want to test 214 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:21,236 Speaker 1: seven ideo. Recently, I have come to believe in the 215 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:27,996 Speaker 1: asymmetrical theory of parental memories, which is that everyone, when pressed, 216 00:11:28,516 --> 00:11:31,076 Speaker 1: has way more memories of one parent than the other. 217 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: So we all have one not that we one parent 218 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,916 Speaker 1: that we favor, no, but one parent who is who 219 00:11:38,516 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 1: is vivid, yes, who consumes all of our kind of storytelling. 220 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: In your case, your mother and your work has loomed 221 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:45,676 Speaker 1: much larger than your father. 222 00:11:45,876 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 4: Yes, although even though in fact I'm extremely close to 223 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 4: my father and admire him limitlessly, dedicated the book on 224 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 4: Liberalism to him because he had taught me all of 225 00:11:54,316 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 4: those things. But my father is, in his nature a 226 00:11:57,036 --> 00:12:00,716 Speaker 4: more recessive person than my mother. There is one chapter 227 00:12:00,756 --> 00:12:02,556 Speaker 4: that's very much about my father in this and it's 228 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:04,956 Speaker 4: the first time I've ever really written about him about 229 00:12:05,156 --> 00:12:07,636 Speaker 4: learning to drive, because when I was learning to drive 230 00:12:07,756 --> 00:12:11,716 Speaker 4: in my fifties, with my son Luke getting we got 231 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 4: our licenses on the same day. I believe that's the 232 00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:16,916 Speaker 4: only time that's ever happened. And my father was haunting 233 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:19,396 Speaker 4: me the whole time. Because my father is the most 234 00:12:19,516 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 4: gently competent human being you will meet. And one of 235 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 4: the things was he had been driving since he was fourteen, 236 00:12:24,756 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 4: and he was the sort of person who thought nothing. 237 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:29,636 Speaker 4: You know, he has six kids and twenty grandchildren of 238 00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 4: driving to a grandchild in Baltimore from rural Ontario where 239 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 4: they live for nineteen hours, and we just would do 240 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 4: things like that. He was an utterly competent man. And 241 00:12:40,236 --> 00:12:42,516 Speaker 4: I think we all make ourselves a little bit in 242 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 4: the shadow of our father's accomplishments, but also by bending 243 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 4: away from the shadow into our own sunshine. So my 244 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 4: father was so super competent in all those ways that 245 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 4: I made myself notably incompetent in the little tasks of life. 246 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:01,716 Speaker 4: So my wife Martha did all the driving in our family, 247 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 4: and I was the one in the as my daughter Olivia, 248 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 4: who's here someplace? And I would point out the gendered seat, 249 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:09,276 Speaker 4: which we usually assigned to women in our culture. Sure 250 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,556 Speaker 4: where I'm the one passing out the cookies and saying, hey, kids, kids, 251 00:13:12,556 --> 00:13:14,676 Speaker 4: got to be quiet. Mom's trying to find the exit. Now, 252 00:13:14,956 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 4: you know when we would be that will be there soon. 253 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 4: I promise you will be there soon. Let mom concentrate. 254 00:13:20,316 --> 00:13:23,756 Speaker 4: And I was in that seat for decades, and then 255 00:13:23,796 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 4: I wanted to just nudge over to the other seat 256 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 4: a bit. And so that was very much about my father, 257 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 4: But absolutely my mother is the vivid person. 258 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:33,156 Speaker 1: All right, all right, next name on the list. None 259 00:13:33,196 --> 00:13:35,836 Speaker 1: of us knew him, but both of us are fascinated 260 00:13:35,836 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: by him. Bud Schulberg. Oh we do a Bud Scholberg 261 00:13:38,716 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 1: shout out. 262 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:41,076 Speaker 3: We should definitely do a Bud Shoulberg shout out. 263 00:13:41,116 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 4: We're better than at the Why I've been trying to 264 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:46,076 Speaker 4: get the Library of America to put Bud Schulberg in print, 265 00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:48,636 Speaker 4: you know, for a while, and maybe I still can't. 266 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 4: Bud Schulberg, as all of you will know, was a writer, 267 00:13:53,676 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 4: a journalist, most famous as a screenwriter, wrote the screenplay 268 00:13:56,876 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 4: for On the Waterfront and other things. 269 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 3: But he wrote one of the most beautiful and. 270 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 4: Forgotten novels in American English, called The Disenchanted, about his 271 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 4: bizarre adventures writing a screenplay with the then on the 272 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 4: brink of death Scott Fitzgerald. And it's the most beautiful 273 00:14:12,996 --> 00:14:16,636 Speaker 4: portrait of Scot Fitzgerald that we have, and remarkable. 274 00:14:16,156 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 3: Guy, and his stuff should be back in print. 275 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 4: And I suspect quick parenthetical that his name hurt him. 276 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:26,956 Speaker 4: One of my pet theories is that writers are very 277 00:14:26,956 --> 00:14:29,876 Speaker 4: dependent on their names. Right, there's a moment there was 278 00:14:29,916 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 4: a Dr Johnson says someplace that there was a poet 279 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:35,876 Speaker 4: laureate in England named Elkana Settle, and no one could 280 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:37,676 Speaker 4: ever believe that he could write a good poem with 281 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 4: a name like el Conna Settle. 282 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:41,676 Speaker 3: And I have struggled with this my whole life. 283 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 4: Because Gopnik has got to be the single ugliest, most 284 00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:47,876 Speaker 4: non euphonious name there is. And Bud Sholberg, right, it 285 00:14:47,956 --> 00:14:50,676 Speaker 4: sounds like a guy who runs a store, right, Whereas 286 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 4: you know, J. D. Salinger is clearly a writer of you. 287 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 4: So that's something we all say. 288 00:14:55,556 --> 00:14:57,796 Speaker 2: There should be a version of Elis Island for writers. 289 00:14:58,116 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, exactly, that's the whole story there about why 290 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:04,796 Speaker 4: the name got didn't get changed at Elis Island. 291 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:06,236 Speaker 3: But I'll spare you for the moment. 292 00:15:08,396 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 4: Jamie Swiss, Oh, Jamie Swiss is a different I just 293 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 4: was texting with him. Jamie is the most gifted and 294 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:20,436 Speaker 4: most irascible magician there's ever been. He's a true intellectual 295 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 4: of the magic world, and he is a truly contentious person. 296 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 4: And what I love about Jamie's is he's a magnificent 297 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:29,636 Speaker 4: sleight of handman, a great teacher. He taught my son 298 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:33,356 Speaker 4: Luke card magic, and he was the most exacting, demanding 299 00:15:33,396 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 4: and rewarding, replenishing teacher you could possibly have. But Jamie's 300 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 4: just a beautifully irascible person who cannot take anything lightly. 301 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,356 Speaker 4: You know, as you know I say in the book someplace, 302 00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:48,676 Speaker 4: you know that people don't take magicians seriously right. And 303 00:15:48,716 --> 00:15:50,116 Speaker 4: they go up to the magicians say oh, I know 304 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:52,796 Speaker 4: how you did that, which is like going up to 305 00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:54,516 Speaker 4: yo yo ma and saying, oh, I know how you 306 00:15:54,556 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 4: did that. You just scraped that thing along the strings, 307 00:15:57,516 --> 00:15:59,276 Speaker 4: didn't you. I know how you did that. I have 308 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 4: an uncle who does the same thing all the time. 309 00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:04,836 Speaker 4: And most magicians just kind of bite their lips and say, 310 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 4: oh good, And I'm glad to hear that. And Jamie 311 00:16:07,916 --> 00:16:09,356 Speaker 4: is the one that says, you have no idea, Yeah, 312 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:11,996 Speaker 4: how the fuck I did that? You have no fucking 313 00:16:12,076 --> 00:16:14,916 Speaker 4: idea how I did that, So don't tell me you do. 314 00:16:15,436 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 4: And he's a contentious magician and it's wonderful and he's brilliant. 315 00:16:19,356 --> 00:16:21,876 Speaker 4: He's one of my dearest friends, and I love him 316 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:26,556 Speaker 4: exactly because he takes magic at the most serious and 317 00:16:26,596 --> 00:16:30,516 Speaker 4: conceivable level and won't allow it to be minimized or 318 00:16:30,556 --> 00:16:33,316 Speaker 4: condescended to though he did say to me once, the 319 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:36,156 Speaker 4: only reason mimes exists is so the magicians have someone 320 00:16:36,196 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 4: to patronize. 321 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 1: What I love about your the best way. The chapter 322 00:16:42,436 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 1: of this book on magic is magic. It's the thing 323 00:16:46,276 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 1: that I never really understood about magic until you wrote 324 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 1: about it. And I could never tell whether this is 325 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:55,596 Speaker 1: true of magic or just true of you on magic, 326 00:16:55,996 --> 00:16:59,556 Speaker 1: which is that all these magicians, at least the ones 327 00:16:59,596 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: you writ about, have thought so deeply and beautifully and 328 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 1: profoundly about their craft in a way that no other 329 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 1: you know, I've just spent for pat of reasons the 330 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:16,876 Speaker 1: last couple of weeks months really interviewing one trauma surgeon 331 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:20,836 Speaker 1: after another. Uh, and trauma surgents are incredibly interesting. 332 00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 2: The work they do is really, really, really really hard. 333 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:26,796 Speaker 1: The technology changes every and technique changes every ten minutes. 334 00:17:27,036 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 2: But they don't. 335 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 1: They're not talking about it on a philosophical level. It's 336 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: they've taken something that's beautifully powerfully complicated and they have 337 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: made it intensely practical. 338 00:17:39,276 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 4: And they talk about it well. Shop talk is the 339 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:44,556 Speaker 4: most beautiful talk that there is. One of the reasons 340 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 4: writers are so occupationally miserable, it's because we have no 341 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:52,236 Speaker 4: shop talk really to talk about, right, talk about keyboards, computers, 342 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 4: advances and publishers, and then that's it, right, we don't. 343 00:17:55,956 --> 00:17:57,836 Speaker 3: Magicians have the most beautiful. 344 00:17:57,396 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 4: And rapturous shop talk of anyone because they can only 345 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 4: talk about it to other magicians. They have a high 346 00:18:02,396 --> 00:18:05,876 Speaker 4: level of trauma surgeon like technique. But they can't tell 347 00:18:06,196 --> 00:18:07,996 Speaker 4: you or me about it. They can only talk about 348 00:18:07,996 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 4: it to other magicians. There's an intensity, an intellectual intensity, 349 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:13,716 Speaker 4: of what they do. I will add as well, of course, 350 00:18:13,756 --> 00:18:18,316 Speaker 4: and this is the implicit, if tenderly loving accusation you're making. 351 00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:21,436 Speaker 4: I seek out the intellectual magicians, and they seek and 352 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:22,956 Speaker 4: they choose to speak to me. 353 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:27,476 Speaker 2: What is it that drew you to magic? Was it 354 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: that did Luke discovered? Or did you Luke? 355 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:33,316 Speaker 4: It was simultaneously that my son Luke discovered magic and 356 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:37,716 Speaker 4: found that he gave him far more meaning, accomplishment, significance 357 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:39,916 Speaker 4: than anything he was studying in school. So I was 358 00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 4: drawn into it through Luke's obsessive interest in magic. But 359 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 4: then I loved it too once I started going to 360 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:49,836 Speaker 4: Monday Night Magic and other things too, because it seemed 361 00:18:49,836 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 4: like such a model of art of a very modest kind. 362 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:58,356 Speaker 4: You know, magicians aren't because they feel oppressed all the time. 363 00:18:58,676 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 4: But the idea that you would have a profound technique 364 00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 4: that you kept to yourself, the idea that your primary 365 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:13,636 Speaker 4: impulse was to entertain rather than to impress or to intimidate, 366 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:15,756 Speaker 4: That that would be that you would have all of 367 00:19:15,796 --> 00:19:18,076 Speaker 4: these skills, but you would use them for the purposes 368 00:19:18,076 --> 00:19:21,556 Speaker 4: of delight. That spoke somehow to my ideals for writing 369 00:19:21,596 --> 00:19:24,196 Speaker 4: and my ideals for art generally. And I was very taken, 370 00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:26,916 Speaker 4: instantly taken by the company of magicians. 371 00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:28,396 Speaker 3: I loved the company of magicians. 372 00:19:28,636 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 4: The people I most have enjoyed hanging out with in 373 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:33,916 Speaker 4: life are magicians and cooks, and they have a great 374 00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 4: deal in common. 375 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 3: They both. 376 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:38,116 Speaker 4: There's an artisanal basis to everything they do. They are 377 00:19:38,196 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 4: expert at doing something. But there and there tend to 378 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:45,516 Speaker 4: be very temperamental people who have very difficult lives. Nothing 379 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 4: is harder than running a restaurant, except running a magic show. 380 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 4: And yet the whole purpose of their existence is to delight. 381 00:19:54,156 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 4: And I find this something sort of noble and even 382 00:19:57,196 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 4: saintly about that. 383 00:19:58,036 --> 00:19:58,356 Speaker 3: I love it. 384 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 1: There's no high theory attached to the cookiechef. 385 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:03,436 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there is. 386 00:20:03,476 --> 00:20:06,716 Speaker 4: If you get chefs talking that, you know, I don't 387 00:20:06,716 --> 00:20:08,596 Speaker 4: have it as much in this book. But you get 388 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:12,796 Speaker 4: chefs to talking about the ethics of seasonality or what 389 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:15,716 Speaker 4: counts as local and what doesn't, or you even get 390 00:20:15,716 --> 00:20:19,276 Speaker 4: them talking about whether you have tarragon leaves or Tarragon 391 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 4: stems in a Brene sauce. 392 00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 3: They'll go on forever. You know. They have the same 393 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:26,316 Speaker 3: kind of passionate chop talk which I love to hear. 394 00:20:29,836 --> 00:20:32,916 Speaker 1: More from the real work on the mystery of Mastery 395 00:20:33,276 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 1: in a moment. Now back to my conversation on Mastery 396 00:20:53,156 --> 00:20:55,716 Speaker 1: with Adam Gopnik at the ninety second Street Y in 397 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:56,196 Speaker 1: New York. 398 00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:01,716 Speaker 2: George Plimpton. I bring him up only because. 399 00:21:02,876 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 1: In this book, Adam goes in a series of quests 400 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 1: to master certain activities baking, boxing, magic, et cetera. Driving, drawing, Uh, 401 00:21:16,116 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 1: drawing is the first one, and I'm wondering, is it 402 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 1: an echo of George Plimpton? And how do you feel 403 00:21:22,116 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: about George Primpton? 404 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 4: That's a that's such an acute question, because I deliberately 405 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 4: dropped George Plimpton's name in the opening chapter, thinking no 406 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 4: one will pick up on my little homage to Plimpton 407 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 4: in the opening chapter because it goes by very quickly. 408 00:21:36,476 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 4: But I put that there exactly for that reason. George 409 00:21:39,076 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 4: Plimpton did these wonderful books paper Lin, mad Ducks and 410 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 4: Bears about his own engagement as an amateur. We'd go 411 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:49,116 Speaker 4: and he would box, with Archie Moore, or he would 412 00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:52,076 Speaker 4: play quarterback for the Detroit Lions, and so on, and 413 00:21:52,116 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 4: so there's certainly an element of plymptoness in this. His 414 00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 4: book Mad Ducks and Bears is one of the most 415 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 4: entertaining sports books ever written. So I greatly admire his 416 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 4: prose writing. But it isn't the plimpton like book in 417 00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:07,196 Speaker 4: the sense that Plimpton's comedy came out of his. 418 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:10,756 Speaker 3: Incapacity to do it. 419 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:14,356 Speaker 4: You know, Plimpton was making it was had he was 420 00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:16,196 Speaker 4: a wonderful writer, but he had kind of one joke 421 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:18,596 Speaker 4: to tell, right, I attempt to do this thing, I 422 00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:21,076 Speaker 4: learn a lot, and then I fail at it. And 423 00:22:21,156 --> 00:22:23,956 Speaker 4: I wanted to tell two jokes. I attempt to do 424 00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:28,276 Speaker 4: this thing and I enter into the world of the 425 00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:28,916 Speaker 4: people who do it. 426 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:30,316 Speaker 3: Well, Plimpton did that too, I guess. 427 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 4: But yes, certainly Plimpton is one of the ghosts to 428 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:35,836 Speaker 4: someplace in the back of the book. And I put 429 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 4: him in one sentence and you caught it. 430 00:22:39,276 --> 00:22:41,676 Speaker 1: But he But I want you to talk a little 431 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 1: bit more about the difference. So both of you are 432 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:47,996 Speaker 1: beginning in the same spirit, yes, which is there are 433 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: worlds outside your own experience, that fascinates you, and you 434 00:22:52,276 --> 00:22:55,916 Speaker 1: would like to you would like to bear witness to them, 435 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:56,996 Speaker 1: to experience. 436 00:22:57,036 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 4: I guess, and I say this in there's every reason 437 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:03,876 Speaker 4: to prefer Plimpton's approach, which is more amateur to my own. 438 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:07,476 Speaker 4: But I can't resist being a bit of a generalizer, 439 00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 4: a theory producer about it. And the book is full 440 00:23:10,516 --> 00:23:15,476 Speaker 4: of my generalizations, my guesses, my attempts to find the 441 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:20,596 Speaker 4: commonality across all of these dimensions, boxing and dancing. What 442 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,116 Speaker 4: do they have in common? What's similar about the way 443 00:23:23,116 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 4: we learn them? I can't I can't not be my 444 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:28,316 Speaker 4: mother's son in that way. My mother was a professor, 445 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 4: my father was a professor. All my brothers and sisters 446 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 4: are professors. So I am the only one who isn't. 447 00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:39,356 Speaker 4: I'm what's called a Jewish dropout, and the and every 448 00:23:39,436 --> 00:23:42,956 Speaker 4: so I think that that urge to teach, to explicate 449 00:23:43,436 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 4: is very strong. Was not at all in you know, 450 00:23:45,516 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 4: Plimpton was an aristocratic wasp, and for him teaching and 451 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:51,796 Speaker 4: explicating I think was a little vulgar. 452 00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:53,196 Speaker 2: He was he's a performer. 453 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a performer. 454 00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, a literary performer. And yes you are. 455 00:23:56,996 --> 00:23:58,716 Speaker 3: You're much more of a professor. 456 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:02,436 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm there's I'm a ham as well, but there's 457 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 4: more professorialness in my performance than there ever was in his. 458 00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:06,596 Speaker 2: Yeah. 459 00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:09,836 Speaker 1: One thing you don't talk about in this book was 460 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:14,196 Speaker 1: your foray into music. 461 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:16,876 Speaker 4: I do talk about it a bit, a little bit, 462 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:18,516 Speaker 4: a little bit, not a great land. 463 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 2: I thought I was wondering about. 464 00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:24,156 Speaker 1: There has always been this kind of desire to experiment 465 00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 1: with your experiences in a way that that's not true 466 00:24:28,756 --> 00:24:31,916 Speaker 1: of a lot of very adventurous and one of the 467 00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:34,516 Speaker 1: aterestings you did was describe a little bit about your 468 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:35,796 Speaker 1: kind of musical adventures. 469 00:24:35,796 --> 00:24:38,356 Speaker 4: And well, when I came to New York, when Martha 470 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 4: and I came to New York on a bus from Canada, 471 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:45,276 Speaker 4: like in the Bad Forties movie, I wanted to be 472 00:24:45,276 --> 00:24:47,796 Speaker 4: a songwriter. That was my primary ambition. Well, I wanted 473 00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 4: to be a songwriter and a writer for the New Yorker. 474 00:24:49,716 --> 00:24:51,596 Speaker 4: I figured I could do both. I could be Stephen 475 00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 4: Sondheim and John Updyke simultaneously. It turned out not to 476 00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 4: be the case, but I wanted to do that, and 477 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:02,116 Speaker 4: I never pursued it adequately. You know. It was one 478 00:25:02,156 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 4: of those things that I left behind too soon. So 479 00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 4: in the course of life, a wonderful composer, David Schier, 480 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:12,916 Speaker 4: approached me about writing a musical with him, and I, 481 00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 4: to somewhat to his shock, I jumped at the opportunity 482 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 4: because it was the form I love most in the world. 483 00:25:18,356 --> 00:25:20,436 Speaker 4: And we wrote a show called Our Table, which you 484 00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 4: can find on Spotify, and we wrote some sixty songs together, 485 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:26,036 Speaker 4: and I am I loved it. 486 00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 2: Excuse me how many songs? 487 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:28,476 Speaker 3: Sixty songs? 488 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:33,676 Speaker 4: Zero six zero, because that's the usual ratio in Broadway musicals. 489 00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 4: They have a very strong you call them trunk songs. 490 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 4: You write sixty songs and you throw out forty. I mean, 491 00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:41,916 Speaker 4: that's the standard rate at which it's done. It's a 492 00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 4: funny thing. Not that the forty or worse than the twenty. 493 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 4: It's a kind of weird, kind of almost religious discipline 494 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:48,316 Speaker 4: that Broadway people have. 495 00:25:49,396 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 3: And in anyway, I love it. 496 00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:54,436 Speaker 2: Hold on, take it over. This sixty. 497 00:25:54,756 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 1: So every Broadway play has forty songs. They're just lying 498 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 1: in a vault somewhere. 499 00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 4: Yes, in a word, yes, And those are called trunk songs. 500 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 4: I don't know if it's always forty and twenty, it 501 00:26:05,276 --> 00:26:09,836 Speaker 4: could be sometimes thirty and ten. But yes, every songwriting 502 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:12,876 Speaker 4: team and everybody songwriter will tell you that they even 503 00:26:12,996 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 4: Somedheim threw away four different endings for Company before he 504 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:18,276 Speaker 4: arrived at Being Alive. 505 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:20,316 Speaker 3: It's part of the discipline of the craft. 506 00:26:20,356 --> 00:26:22,796 Speaker 4: I'm not always sure that it's a productive discipline in 507 00:26:22,836 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 4: the sense that the ones you throw away may actually 508 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 4: be better than the one you arrive at. 509 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:30,316 Speaker 1: Does anyone independently analyze the ones that are thrown away? Like, 510 00:26:30,796 --> 00:26:33,116 Speaker 1: is there some this should be some central committee of 511 00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 1: Broadway that kind of takes all these in and. 512 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 4: Like like a FDA inspectors who come in and say, 513 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 4: you don't have to throw this away. 514 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:43,076 Speaker 3: This smells good to me, Yes, exactly. 515 00:26:43,716 --> 00:26:44,716 Speaker 2: This is unbelievable. 516 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's such a it's so show off hee, 517 00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:49,796 Speaker 1: by the way. You know, the rest of us are 518 00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:52,156 Speaker 1: like making use of every last scrap. 519 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 4: But so I did that, and I loved it, and 520 00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 4: I wrote all the lyrics and I felt, you know, 521 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:01,076 Speaker 4: and I put myself to work to master that craft 522 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:03,676 Speaker 4: and that art as much as I could because my 523 00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:09,116 Speaker 4: ultimate heroes, Lorenzo du Ponte, Lorenz Heart, Larry Hart took 524 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:09,756 Speaker 4: part in that field. 525 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:11,436 Speaker 2: And I have no fear of embarrassment. 526 00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:17,156 Speaker 4: I live in total fear of embarrassment. But I suppose 527 00:27:17,196 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 4: when it comes to the contest between my egotism and 528 00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:22,676 Speaker 4: my embarrassment, my egotism wins somehow. 529 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:23,556 Speaker 3: I don't know. 530 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 4: I mean, if I can put it in slightly kind 531 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:30,556 Speaker 4: of terms to myself, I'm ambitious, you know, and I 532 00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 4: like doing ambitious things. And I you know, it's not 533 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 4: like I'm out there, you know, trying to compete with 534 00:27:36,796 --> 00:27:41,796 Speaker 4: elon musk and rocketry. You know, what I'm good at, 535 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:44,476 Speaker 4: or what I believe myself to be good at, is 536 00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:49,156 Speaker 4: shaping sentences. And some of those sentences are essays. That's 537 00:27:49,196 --> 00:27:50,876 Speaker 4: the form I love most in the world is. 538 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,356 Speaker 3: The essay, what's sometimes called the. 539 00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 4: Personal essay and the and the but writing lyrics or 540 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 4: writing a show is it's the same enterprise, right. It's 541 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:06,676 Speaker 4: organizing language in ways that express emotion. And for me, 542 00:28:06,916 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 4: you know, the thing I love mode is exactly the 543 00:28:10,436 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 4: moments in that act when you get an emotion and 544 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 4: I had an idea humming together. And that's what I 545 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:21,036 Speaker 4: always tried to do in things, is what you were 546 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:23,796 Speaker 4: talking about before, and when it's just ideas, it feels 547 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 4: arrid to me, and when it's just emotions, it feels 548 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:29,876 Speaker 4: amateurish to me. And there's no form known to man 549 00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 4: in which ideas well you did this, you talked about 550 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 4: this with in your Paul Simon audiobook. There's no form 551 00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:40,116 Speaker 4: in which ideas and emotions come into such intimate entanglement 552 00:28:40,556 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 4: as in a song. So anybody who can write one 553 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:46,796 Speaker 4: good song, one memorable song, has got a little bit 554 00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:50,676 Speaker 4: of purchase on immortality. And I think I've written one, 555 00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 4: but I will continue to write more. 556 00:28:53,036 --> 00:28:55,596 Speaker 1: On one level, what this book is is about the 557 00:28:55,716 --> 00:28:57,796 Speaker 1: special pleasures of mediocrity. 558 00:28:58,036 --> 00:29:00,916 Speaker 2: Yes, And because you embark on. 559 00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:03,196 Speaker 1: A series of things, and implicit in not all of them, 560 00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: but in some of the things that you embark on, 561 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 1: is that you're not never going to be good. 562 00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 2: You're never going to be good at them. 563 00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: And this is the great discovery of my middle aged 564 00:29:12,476 --> 00:29:15,316 Speaker 1: When I was very young, I only pursued things that 565 00:29:15,356 --> 00:29:19,556 Speaker 1: I was good at, and I realized when I hit 566 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:22,156 Speaker 1: forty that that was a trap. And you know why 567 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: I realized it. I realized it because I went to 568 00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,596 Speaker 1: Bard and when I was using the gym, I saw 569 00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 1: the barred lacrosse team practice and I observed them and 570 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 1: they observed that they were the most laughably inept lacrosse. 571 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:37,156 Speaker 3: Team I've ever seen. 572 00:29:37,716 --> 00:29:40,996 Speaker 1: And my first thought was, you know, I have all 573 00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:44,636 Speaker 1: kinds of athletic pretensions, so I was looking down my nose. 574 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:46,196 Speaker 2: And then my second thought. 575 00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:49,556 Speaker 1: Was that is fantastic because it means that anyone who 576 00:29:49,636 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: wants to play lacrosse at Bard can play lacross at Bard, 577 00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 1: and that is such a better model than every other 578 00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 1: lacrosse team. If you want to play lacrosse at Johns Hopkins, 579 00:29:57,876 --> 00:29:59,556 Speaker 1: it's impossible. 580 00:29:58,876 --> 00:29:59,876 Speaker 3: Because you're never going to be good. 581 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:02,476 Speaker 2: You're never going to make the team. It's a pleasure 582 00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:03,436 Speaker 2: is denied to you. 583 00:30:03,876 --> 00:30:09,156 Speaker 1: Why, for the completely random and totally unfair reason, the 584 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:12,516 Speaker 1: number of kids that have been playing lacrosse in you know, 585 00:30:12,716 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 1: suburban Baltimore since they were six years old because their 586 00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 1: parents had the nutty notion that mastery. 587 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:23,356 Speaker 2: Of lacrosse was something they wanted to use their have their. 588 00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:24,916 Speaker 3: Kids and would get them into Johns Hopkins. 589 00:30:25,796 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 1: But so what do we do we impoverish the vast 590 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:31,036 Speaker 1: pool of kids who would really enjoy playing well across 591 00:30:31,276 --> 00:30:33,196 Speaker 1: in favor of a small bart flips. 592 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:35,516 Speaker 2: It just says we're going to have a bad cross the. 593 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 4: Same, yes, I know, but not to be pious. But 594 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 4: that's sort of one of the themes of the book. 595 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 4: Maybe is the theme of the book, because the truth is, 596 00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 4: and I have a little chapter called the Mystery of 597 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 4: Interiority where I look into that old folk legend that 598 00:30:50,116 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 4: hummingbirds and elephants have the same number of heartbeats in 599 00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:55,396 Speaker 4: the life, and find that there's actually at the University 600 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:58,556 Speaker 4: of North Carolina State, there's a scientific team that looks 601 00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 4: into this question, that took up this question, and it's true. 602 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,756 Speaker 4: And the point of it, the metaphor of it is, 603 00:31:04,756 --> 00:31:07,836 Speaker 4: is that the hummingbird's sense of existence is just as 604 00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:10,796 Speaker 4: extended as the elephants. It just is only that feels 605 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:13,356 Speaker 4: that way for the hummingbird, right, not for the elephant. 606 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:17,276 Speaker 4: And in exactly the same way, the accomplishments that we 607 00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:21,316 Speaker 4: master or attempt to master at which we're no good, 608 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:25,396 Speaker 4: give us the same sense of, you know, little steps 609 00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:27,836 Speaker 4: turning into a seamless sequence, the sense of the flow, 610 00:31:28,156 --> 00:31:31,316 Speaker 4: which is the key to happiness. Happiness is absorption. Happiness 611 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:33,836 Speaker 4: is reaching that flow state, and in a weird way, 612 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:37,516 Speaker 4: any time you achieve it, you have the hummingbird's heartbeat 613 00:31:37,516 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 4: inside you, you have a strong interior sense. Like the 614 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,796 Speaker 4: kids in at Bard, right, they didn't know they were 615 00:31:43,796 --> 00:31:46,116 Speaker 4: bad lacrosse players, and I'm sure they talked about lacrosse 616 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:48,236 Speaker 4: all the time and tried to improve their game. 617 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:50,676 Speaker 3: And that's exactly bid. 618 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:53,196 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, they do know they're bads. 619 00:31:54,156 --> 00:31:55,796 Speaker 1: No, no, I don't mean that it's a joke, right, because 620 00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 1: it's the second The corollary to the observation that there 621 00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 1: is beauty in badness is that the second thing is 622 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:09,756 Speaker 1: that it is only through pursuing something not badly you 623 00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:13,476 Speaker 1: weren't bad at these things, but inexpertly, yes, that you 624 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:15,836 Speaker 1: come to a full appreciation of the expert. 625 00:32:15,876 --> 00:32:16,036 Speaker 3: Yes. 626 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 1: The person who goes up to the magician and says, 627 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 1: I know how you did that is someone who doesn't 628 00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:22,956 Speaker 1: try to be a mediocre they have If they were 629 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:25,996 Speaker 1: a mediocre magician, they would know better that they would 630 00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 1: be an how they would be. 631 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:29,596 Speaker 2: A true awe. It's the same thing I was gonna 632 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:31,596 Speaker 2: say this with It is only when. 633 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:36,076 Speaker 1: I became a mediocre runner in my middle age that 634 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 1: I that I began to appreciate what a world class runner. 635 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And it's only by being a terrible pianist 636 00:32:41,316 --> 00:32:43,196 Speaker 4: that I have some glimpse of what it is to 637 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 4: be Bill Evans or Errol Garner. 638 00:32:45,956 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 2: This is the greatest case for community theater. 639 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 3: Yes, this is true. 640 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,556 Speaker 1: Which is the is the kind of whipping boy. Community 641 00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:57,876 Speaker 1: theory is the whipping boy of every pretentious intellectual. I 642 00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 1: grew up with a community theater, and I'm here to 643 00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 1: tell you civilization. 644 00:33:01,916 --> 00:33:05,716 Speaker 4: Is community theater is based on community theory. I mean that, 645 00:33:06,076 --> 00:33:08,116 Speaker 4: but you know that's not you know who said that? 646 00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:11,716 Speaker 4: Forgive me for a professorial moment. Frederick Laul Olmsted, the 647 00:33:11,756 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 4: great designer of Central Park and one of the great 648 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:18,236 Speaker 4: American political thinkers, said that the thing that the commonplace 649 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:22,036 Speaker 4: civilization of a liberal society depended on community theater. He 650 00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:25,316 Speaker 4: talked about glee clubs, he talked about amateur opera societies. 651 00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:29,236 Speaker 4: That's the living, beating heart of a liberal society. 652 00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:32,636 Speaker 3: Are those things? Yeah, yeah, give me one more name. 653 00:33:32,716 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 3: I'm in loving this so much. I'll give you It's 654 00:33:35,276 --> 00:33:36,356 Speaker 3: like being in therapy, and. 655 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:40,476 Speaker 2: We'll do David Blaine, why not, let's finish on magic. 656 00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:44,676 Speaker 4: David Blaine was so Luca, my wonderful son who is 657 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:48,596 Speaker 4: now doing his PhD in philosophy at the University of Texas. 658 00:33:48,676 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 4: After all of his adventures magic and music, he had 659 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:56,196 Speaker 4: ended as a philosopher went to work as David Blaine's 660 00:33:56,276 --> 00:33:59,716 Speaker 4: personal assistant. David offered him that job, and it was 661 00:33:59,756 --> 00:34:05,236 Speaker 4: a wonderful learning experience, much better than going to progressive school, 662 00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:07,276 Speaker 4: because he had to learn how to keep you know, 663 00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 4: Russian models away from each other, and how to care 664 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:13,676 Speaker 4: for an albino alligator, and money other things, and David 665 00:34:13,756 --> 00:34:15,756 Speaker 4: in the middle of it. This is my favorite anecdote 666 00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:18,636 Speaker 4: in the book, was doing a bullet catch, now bullet cap. 667 00:34:18,636 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 4: He was doing it for a TV special. And in 668 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:24,156 Speaker 4: the bullet catch, the magician has a steel cup in 669 00:34:24,196 --> 00:34:27,356 Speaker 4: his mouth or her mouth, and somebody fires a bullet 670 00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:29,476 Speaker 4: from a rifle directly into the cup. You have to 671 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:32,876 Speaker 4: catch the bullet. And now normally it's done as a trick, 672 00:34:33,116 --> 00:34:36,356 Speaker 4: as a gaff, because it's too dangerous. Twelve magicians were 673 00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:38,716 Speaker 4: killed in the early part of the twentieth century doing 674 00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,476 Speaker 4: the bullet catch on stage, so nobody does it that way. 675 00:34:41,476 --> 00:34:43,236 Speaker 4: And Luke explained to me David was going to do 676 00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:45,916 Speaker 4: a true bullet catch, and I said, well, what's how 677 00:34:45,956 --> 00:34:47,796 Speaker 4: do you do a bullet catch? And he said, well, 678 00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:51,396 Speaker 4: it's a very strong titanium cup and it's a very 679 00:34:51,476 --> 00:34:55,636 Speaker 4: low velocity rifle and a very small caliber bullet, and 680 00:34:55,676 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 4: it's all laser guided. I said, oh, really, so there's 681 00:34:58,396 --> 00:35:00,756 Speaker 4: no trick to the bullet catch and he said, oh no, Dad, 682 00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 4: there's a trick to the bullet catch. The trick to 683 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:07,436 Speaker 4: the bullet catch is catching the bullet. And as soon 684 00:35:07,476 --> 00:35:09,516 Speaker 4: as Luke said that to me, I said, that's the 685 00:35:09,556 --> 00:35:13,596 Speaker 4: wisest thing I've ever heard, right, because we all instantly 686 00:35:13,676 --> 00:35:16,516 Speaker 4: know what that means, Right that, after all the preparation 687 00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:19,156 Speaker 4: you do when you're writing or talking or anything, after 688 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:22,076 Speaker 4: all the ways in which you make sure that you 689 00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:24,276 Speaker 4: will not be killed by the bullet, at some point 690 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:26,756 Speaker 4: you have to stand there with your mouth open and 691 00:35:26,796 --> 00:35:29,716 Speaker 4: the cup in it while somebody points a rifle at you. 692 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:32,516 Speaker 4: And that, for me is, you know, the existential leap 693 00:35:32,556 --> 00:35:35,076 Speaker 4: that we all have to make in artistry, mastery, whatever 694 00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 4: we choose to call it. And I thought so, I 695 00:35:36,796 --> 00:35:39,756 Speaker 4: thought it was a wonderful story because everybody knows what 696 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:42,476 Speaker 4: that moment is of catching the bullet. 697 00:35:42,596 --> 00:35:45,796 Speaker 1: That trick can only be done in certain states. 698 00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly stand your ground laws. 699 00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:49,796 Speaker 3: I can. 700 00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:52,716 Speaker 4: I can I thank you Malcolm for your incredible generosity 701 00:35:52,716 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 4: in doing this. And can I tell you a story 702 00:35:54,076 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 4: that I don't think you know, is that Malcolm is 703 00:35:57,876 --> 00:35:59,916 Speaker 4: known in our house, as my children were growing up, 704 00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:03,036 Speaker 4: as not that you're not dad, Malcolm, because this is 705 00:36:03,036 --> 00:36:05,516 Speaker 4: the conversation we would always have. Malcolm would come for dinner, 706 00:36:05,756 --> 00:36:09,316 Speaker 4: dazzle Luke and Olivia and then go in and they 707 00:36:09,356 --> 00:36:12,796 Speaker 4: would say, Malcolm tells the most interesting anecdotes and he 708 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:15,916 Speaker 4: always finds the one right story to illustrate it not 709 00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:21,196 Speaker 4: that you don't dead, or Malcolm always has exactly the 710 00:36:21,276 --> 00:36:23,756 Speaker 4: right question to ask, not that you're not doing that dead, 711 00:36:24,116 --> 00:36:27,236 Speaker 4: And so we in our household, Malcolm Ladwell is known 712 00:36:27,276 --> 00:36:28,716 Speaker 4: as not that you're not dead, Malcolm. 713 00:36:28,716 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 3: So thank you. It's not that you're not. 714 00:36:37,996 --> 00:36:41,356 Speaker 1: Adam Gopnik's book, The Real Work on the Mystery of 715 00:36:41,516 --> 00:36:44,836 Speaker 1: Mastery is available now, and be sure to check out 716 00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:49,676 Speaker 1: the audiobook version at pushkin dot fm. Special thanks to 717 00:36:49,756 --> 00:36:53,796 Speaker 1: the ninety second Street Why for hosting us. This episode 718 00:36:53,836 --> 00:36:56,836 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History was produced by Kiara Powell with ben 719 00:36:56,876 --> 00:37:01,356 Speaker 1: Adafh Haffrey Leamingestu and Jacob Smith. Fact checking by Kashelle 720 00:37:01,356 --> 00:37:05,796 Speaker 1: Williams and Tully Emlin. Our showrunner is Peter Clowney. Extra 721 00:37:05,836 --> 00:37:09,596 Speaker 1: special thanks this week to Julia Barton, Morgan Rattner, Kerrie 722 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:14,196 Speaker 1: Brody and Eric Sandler. Original scoring by Luiscira, mastering by 723 00:37:14,276 --> 00:37:19,316 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguerer, and engineering by Nina Lawrence. I'm Malcolm Glappa.