1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to it could happen here, a podcast about 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: it happening here. The slow crumbling of the institutions that 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 2: make up our society, and that includes not just the 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: good stuff that's become the bad stuff, like for example, 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: Google Search, but it includes the stuff that's always been 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: bad and has gotten worse, like life inside the prison 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: industrial complex, which is partly what we will be talking 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: today because our guest is the great Corey, doctoro activist, writer, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: author of a book called The Bezel, which is a 11 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: fiction novel but deals with some very non fictional stuff 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: in relation to how finance goools have changed life for 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 2: people behind bars. Corey, welcome to the show. 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on. It's a delight to 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: be on again. 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always wonderful to have you. I just finished 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: The Bezel. It took me. It was one of those 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: about day, you know, in part because I just like 20 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: didn't want to stop reading it, Like I just kind 21 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 2: of blasted through. I picked it up in the morning 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: on a walk and then was done with it at 23 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: about like nine pm. So I found it pretty compulsively readable. 24 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: Amazing. That's great to hear with the first one. I 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: knew that I had something going on when I woke 26 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 3: up at two in the morning and my wife was 27 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 3: sitting up in bed next to me and I said, 28 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: what are you doing? And she said, I just had 29 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: to find out how it ended. 30 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: So, yeah, and you said the first one. This is 31 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: the second book in a series based on a character, 32 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: Martin Hinch, who's a self employed forensic accountant. I do 33 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: want to let people know right at the jump, I 34 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: actually have not read your first hinchbook yet. 35 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: And they don't have to be read an organ Yes, yes. 36 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to point out before we 37 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: get into the stuff about the plot of this book 38 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: and how it relates to some very real things that 39 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: are ongoing. I wanted to talk about a not so 40 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: stealth advertisement within the series for a guy that we're 41 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: both a big fan of, Stephen Bruce. There's an extended 42 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: digression where where Martin is sending books to a friend 43 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: of his in prison, and you talk a lot about 44 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: Stevens Taltos series, which was a huge influence on me 45 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: as a young person. I could definitely see, I think, 46 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: an influence on this series as well. 47 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Steve is a wonderful writer, and everything 48 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: he writes is amazing. That particular series, you know, he 49 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: started when I was thirteen years old. I'm now fifty two. 50 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 3: I just had dinner with him in Minneapolis. Or he 51 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 3: tells me he's two books away from finishing it. 52 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 53 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, he had planned the whole thing all those years ago. 54 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 3: He's a Zelosny protege. Yeah, and also a giant Fritz 55 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: liber fan. And the it's got that wise cracking Robert 56 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 3: McGee kind of or Travis McGee rather kind of affect 57 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: those books. And also the stuff that I love about 58 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: the best of what you know, disparagingly we could call 59 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: men's adventure fiction, which is that it at its best. 60 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 3: And Maria Ferrell just wrote something really good about this 61 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: on Crooked Timber, and it's best. That stuff really geeks 62 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: out about a lot of stuff that the bad version 63 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: of it is the kind of James Bond version where 64 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you know, this is what the status watches, 65 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: and this is what the Status Martini is, and this 66 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 3: is what the status whatever it is, and that you 67 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: call that the gourmet version right where it's like, you 68 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 3: know what all the best of everything is, and you 69 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 3: know how to how to signal you know, your ver 70 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: blend goods to other people, had to signal that you 71 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 3: are posh and upper class. But the good version of 72 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: it is the is the gourmand version, which is like, 73 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: if you're going to eat cardboard pizza, this is the 74 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: best cardboard pizza. And if you're going to you know, 75 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: like the very best gas station toilets are and the 76 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: you know, the one thing that you should always do 77 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: if you're staying in a flop house is right, And 78 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: it's just that kind of it could be like streets, 79 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: but it's also very uh, I want to say self indulgent, 80 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: but that's not the right word. It's no, it's very uh. 81 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: It's it's it's there's a lot of self care in it. 82 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: There's a lot of like deliberate like, oh, this is 83 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: how I'm going to live my life so that it's 84 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: as good as possible, and I enjoy all of the 85 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: finer things as much as I can. This is the 86 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 3: thing that I do when I'm making a burger so 87 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: that it's a ten percent more delicious every time, you know, yeah, 88 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: type of thing. 89 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: It's it's it's interesting. I came across the first book 90 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: in that series that I read was Dragon, which I 91 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: came across a strip cover from my uncle who worked 92 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: at a bookstore, and that's his like military fiction book 93 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: in the series, which is very much in line with 94 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: the like boys adventure stuff. But as the series goes on, 95 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: it increasingly trends towards like Russian revolutionary literature too. There's 96 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: a little bit more that which I think get an 97 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 2: influence on me. 98 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 3: Well, Steve's a Trotskyist, yeah, yeah. But the thing about 99 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 3: communist fantasy writers, there's a few of them, There's you know, 100 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 3: China Mayville and Stephen, a few others well, Shadderley and 101 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 3: so on, is that the one thing that they can 102 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: always be relied upon to do is get the ratio 103 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: of vassals to lords, right, Yeah, you know that the 104 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: number of peasants in the field is always vastly larger 105 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 3: than the number of lords in the castle, and they 106 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: all have a life and an interiority and a reason 107 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: for being that that's not just being scenery or cannon fodder. 108 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's it's something he does. Well. 109 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 2: I think that's enough of a digression. I just always 110 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: love having a chance to talk about Stephen Bruce's work. 111 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: Let's let's talk about the bezel because the basic I mean, 112 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: I try, I'll try not to give away more than 113 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: is in like the good read summary. But the basics 114 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: of this story is that you've got this guy, Martin Hinch, 115 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: who's this forensic accountant, and as a result, he's friends 116 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: with some people who have, you know, really succeeded in 117 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: sort of the pre dot com bubble tech industry, I 118 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: guess you'd say, and you take us. 119 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: With, you know. 120 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: He goes with one of them to a place called 121 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: Catalina Island, which is a real place that was founded 122 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: by one of our nation's early plutocrats who had a 123 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: bizarre obsession with their not being like fast food available 124 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: on the island. 125 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, he had a lot of bizarre obsessions. This is 126 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 3: William Wrigley, the chewing gum Fortune, and his first obsession 127 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: was chickle trees and which you need to make gum. 128 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: And his particular obsession was owning every chickle forest in 129 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: the world, which he did, which meant that if you 130 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: wanted to make gum, even if you were one of 131 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 3: his competitors, you had to pay him for the chickle. 132 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: So there was no gum that wasn't Wriggly's gum. In 133 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 3: some important sense, this made him, as you might imagine. 134 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 4: Very rich. 135 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: He bought the Chicago Cubs. There is a reason the 136 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: Chicago Cubs play at Wrigley Field, and they would have 137 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: their spring training on Catalina Island, an island that he bought. 138 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: He loved Westerns, and one of the people who lived 139 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: on Catalina Island was or summered there, rather was Zane Gray, 140 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: the great Stern writer. Yeah, and there were a bunch 141 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: of Zane Gray movies that were made on the island, 142 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: including one where they brought over thirteen bull bison because 143 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: they were needed for the movie, and because they didn't 144 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: know a lot about animal handling. Particularly, they did not 145 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: know that male bison do not ever come into contact 146 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: with one another except to have a violent dominance clash, 147 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: which is how the thirteen mail bison all ended up escaping. 148 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: And then Wrigley, in one of his other obsessions, thought 149 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 3: it was Unchristian for these bachelor bison to be on 150 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 3: his island, so he brought over thirteen cows and created 151 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: the bison invasive species think. He also didn't know that 152 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: bison operate in Harem's, which was another thing that he 153 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 3: was just badly wrong. Like it is true that like 154 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: being a billionaire lowers your IQ by thirteen points and 155 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: being the son of a billionaire lowers your IQ by 156 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: forty points. Yeah, and you know, Wriggly had all kinds 157 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 3: of esthetic ideas in the same way that like, you know, know, 158 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: when Ford built ford Landia in Brazil, a planned community 159 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: that was an identical copy of dearborn Michigan, including the 160 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 3: south facing windows, because he wouldn't let his architects explain 161 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: that south of the equator you want north facing windows. Yeah, 162 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: you know, he said, oh, well, we're you know, like 163 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: he came up with all kinds of weird rules for 164 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 3: rubber planters rubber harvesters in the Brazilian jungle, and Wrigley 165 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: came up with his own rules for people living on 166 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 3: his island, and one of them is no fast food. 167 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: And this turns out to be consequential in the story 168 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 3: because the protagon of the story, who's Martin Hench, who's 169 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 3: this you know, two fisted, hard fighting forensic accountant who 170 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: busts finance scams and his pal are on the island 171 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: in the party scene while his friend waits to vest 172 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 3: from Yahoo, where he's been imprisoned by dint of having 173 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: sold them a company for millions of dollars, which he 174 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 3: can only realize if he can sit tight and not 175 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 3: murder any of his colleagues. While they buy and destroy 176 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: every promising startup in Silicon Valley, using the money from 177 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: the Royal family of Saudi Arabia that was funnel to 178 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: them by Masioshi's Sun and Soft Bank, they encounter a 179 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 3: Ponzi scheme, and the Ponzi scheme is grounded in what 180 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 3: is an actual practice of people bringing fast food to 181 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 3: Catalina Island. Like if you go to the K twelve 182 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: school and you have an away game, everyone brings back 183 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: a sack of burgers for their friends because it's forbidden fruit, 184 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: it's exotic, and this turns into a Ponzi scheme to 185 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 3: sell flash frozen burgers brought to the island by various means, 186 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 3: And as with every Ponzi scheme, the thing that they're 187 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 3: actually selling is the right to sell the right to sell, 188 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 3: the right to sell burgers. Yeah, no one, No one 189 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: wants the burgers right. They want the downline, And this 190 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,479 Speaker 3: is why Ponzi schemes always implode. And what Marty realizes 191 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: is that this Ponzi scheme is going on, and that 192 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 3: it has been cooked up by this guy whose parties 193 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: they've been going to, this real estate baron, and that 194 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: he's done it the same way you might carefully tend 195 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 3: an ant colony for the sole purpose of burning them 196 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: with magnifying glasses. You build this enormous sort of Rube 197 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: goal Berg machine, a self licking ice cream cone, and 198 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 3: then you destroy it, you smash it. He's waiting for 199 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 3: this economy to collapse once he's extracted every penny from 200 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: the island, which will add one percent to his net worth, 201 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: and so they do a controlled demolition of it. They 202 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: foil this guy's plan, and this kicks in motion the 203 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: real action in the novel, which is about the private 204 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 3: prison system. 205 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and I love that. 206 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: In preparing to read this chunk of the book, where 207 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: I learned quite a bit about the private prison system, 208 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: I also learned a bunch about Catalina Island and this 209 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: wealthy madman's insane dream. I appreciate that about your books. 210 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Catalina Island. We could go on. Marilyn 211 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: Monroe is a fifteen year old child bride on Catalina Island. 212 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: The CIA was founded on Catalina Island. The channel between 213 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: Catalina Island and the mainland is the deepest channel known 214 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: to humanity, and Dow dumped fifty thousand barrels of DDT 215 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 3: into it in iron that is rusting and that we 216 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: have no way to remediate, and that will someday rupture 217 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 3: and kill every bird downstream of that channel, and also 218 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: lots of fish. Catalina Island is this very fraught place, 219 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: this very beautiful place, very weird place. It's one of 220 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: my favorite places to go. We just booked another trip there, 221 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: and everything about it is is amazing and also terrible, 222 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 3: but also beautiful. 223 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I appreciate the way that you write that, 224 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: and I appreciate the way that you kind of wrap 225 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: us into by first establishing this character, this friend of Martin's, 226 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: who then winds up in a California Department of Corrections 227 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: facility and taking us over a period of time as 228 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: it goes to the way I think most people think 229 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: prisons still are, right kind of the vision of like 230 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: prisons that was formed from movies we watched in the 231 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: early two thousands in the late nineties, where you know, 232 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: they can be pretty ugly places, but like you have 233 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: family and they can come and visit you. Right, there's 234 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: a big room where everybody gets together with their we 235 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: arrested developments. Maybe the most before this all changed, most 236 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 2: recent kind of touchstone on this. And also it's a 237 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 2: place that has like a library, and not just a library, 238 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: but like what comes with the library is opportunities for 239 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,119 Speaker 2: people to like better themselves, to learn things, to build skills, 240 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: to potentially take some more agency of their situation. Right, 241 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: That idea of like the jailhouse lawyer who becomes informed 242 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: in all that, and that world has really gone away 243 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: to a significant extent. It's not completely gone everywhere, but 244 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 2: certainly a lot of those a lot of that has 245 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: been pruned away. The ability of prisoners to have face 246 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: to face contact with their loved ones and the ability 247 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: of prisoners to like use a library is something that 248 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: is a lot less common now than it used to be. 249 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: And it's because a lot of these a lot of 250 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: these kind of attitudes that have characterized finance for so 251 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: long or increasingly becoming common within the companies that run 252 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: these facilities. 253 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, maybe this is a good place 254 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: to explain what a bezel is and how this moment 255 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: relates to what a bezel is. So I really think 256 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 3: the title bezel is a banger. But I didn't realize 257 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: until I started touring this book that if you say 258 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: it aloud, it sounds like be eazel, which is the 259 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: rectanglar on your phone screen. It's actually be easy z 260 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: l e or zed zed if you're a Canadian like me, 261 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: And that is a wonderful term coin by John Kenneth 262 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 3: Galbrath to describe the magic interval after the con artist 263 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: has your money but before you know it's a con 264 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: and in that moment, everybody feels better off. And one 265 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 3: of the great bezel moments was the moment between the 266 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 3: crash of the dot com crash of like two thousand 267 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: and two thousand and one and the crash of the 268 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 3: Great Financial Crisis, the housing crash, And in that period, 269 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 3: all the money that people put into so called investments 270 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 3: and into the market and that made them feel better off, 271 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: made them feel like they had a pension, made them 272 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 3: feel like they had savings, and so on. All that 273 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: money was already gone. So this is one of the 274 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: things about a scam is it feels like the moment 275 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: that you lose the money is the moment you realize 276 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: it's a scam, But you actually lose the money the 277 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: minute you give it to the con artist. The con 278 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: artists might let you keep some of it for a 279 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: little while, but they can take it away from you 280 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: whenever they want. That was a moment of kind of 281 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: giddiness where none of us really wanted the dream to end. 282 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: We knew that once the dream ended, we would all 283 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: be poorer, although in reality we're all poorer. Right then. 284 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: One of the things about that moment is it was 285 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: the moment when another long con came, and that was 286 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: the long con of the California three strikes rule. So 287 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: there had been a couple of quite ghastly murders of 288 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 3: young people, a teenager and a child in California that 289 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: were weaponized by some fairly cruel racists to pass a 290 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: law in California that says that if you were convicted 291 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: of three felonies, you would go to prison for the 292 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: rest of your life with no chance of parole. And 293 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 3: you know, this is California, which is a place that's 294 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: quite allergic to higher taxes, famously the Home Proposition thirteen, 295 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: where you know, we can't raise our property taxes unless 296 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 3: something like seventy percent of us go to the polls 297 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: and specifically vote for it, which is why our cities 298 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: are so cash strapped. And so in this place where 299 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: you have these anti tax extremist types and you have 300 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: this increasing tax burden associated with locking up an ever 301 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: larger fraction of the population for the rest of their lives, 302 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: you have this this you know, unstoppable force and this 303 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: immovable object on a collision course with one another. Because 304 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: at a certain point, you're just going to have prisons 305 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: that are so full that you're going to have to 306 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: do something to relieve them. You're gonna have to build 307 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: more prisons, You're gonna have to reduce the cost of 308 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: operating those prisons. Something's going to give. In the end, 309 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 3: what ended up giving was a Supreme Court case that 310 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: rule that just being in prison in California violated your 311 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: Eighth Amendment rights against cruel and unusual punishment. That every 312 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: California prison basically constituted a violation of the Eighth Amendment, 313 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: and California went through the you know, five stages of grieving, 314 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 3: which I know, they don't replicate that it's it's not real. 315 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: We don't. That's not really a neat description of exactly 316 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: what happens when we grieve. But they they certainly went 317 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 3: through a period of denial and bargaining, including mooting at 318 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: one point sending to like Arizona, so sending California State 319 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: prisoners to Arizona and paying Arizona to take them off 320 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: their hands. And as all of this stuff was going on, 321 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 3: some grifters saw great opportunity, and that opportunity was to 322 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: cut costs in the prisons and facilitate moving prisoners further 323 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: and further away from their families by replacing all of 324 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: the services in the prison with a tablet that you 325 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: would get for free. 326 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 327 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 3: So remember, you know, the iPad comes out in two 328 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: thousand and eight. Steve Jobs is touting it as the 329 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 3: future of the world. Media companies are going crazy. They 330 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 3: they finally found their daddy figure who's going to save 331 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 3: them from tech by you know, siloing everything in an 332 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 3: app that isn't part of the web. And all we 333 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 3: can hear about is how tablets of the future, And 334 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 3: this sounds quite futuristic, right, We'll put tablet will give 335 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 3: every prisoner a free tablet. It's like one laptop per child, 336 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: but for prisoners, and those tablets will replace the live 337 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: and in person visits and phone calls and music and 338 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 3: TV and continuing education and all of it's going to cost, 339 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 3: and it's going to cost a lot more than you 340 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: would pay outside of the outside of the prison for 341 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: the same services. So you know, four bucks a minute 342 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: for poster stamp sized video instead of free zoom calls. Yeah, 343 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: music for three bucks instead of one. And then, of 344 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 3: course these companies are very grifty, and so they're constantly restructuring, 345 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 3: going bankrupt, being bought, buying one another. And every time 346 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 3: that happens, the company changes its name and says, oh, 347 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: we're no longer the same company. We no longer supply 348 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 3: all of those services. We are wiping out all of 349 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 3: your data and you're going to have to buy it again. 350 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 3: And so you know, if that's music, it means that 351 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 3: the song that you pay three dollars for, that you 352 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: bought by working in the prison workshop for twenty five 353 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: cents an hour, is gone and you're in prison for 354 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 3: remember this is California, the rest of your life. And 355 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 3: so you're going to have to go back and earn 356 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 3: more money to get that song again. But also the 357 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 3: five dollars your kid paid to have the birthday card 358 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: that they wrote for you scanned. Because you can no 359 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: longer get parcels or mail, your family have to pay 360 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 3: to have their letters scanned, or they have to pay 361 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 3: to send you email. And so your kid who's growing 362 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: up with that the principal breadwinner, has paid five dollars 363 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: to have their handmade birthday card scanned. That goes away 364 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: too when the prison changes vendors. And it's a kind 365 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:44,239 Speaker 3: of perfect parable for the indifferent sadism of capital, like 366 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 3: the degree to which the pursuit of profit drives people 367 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 3: to be far more cruel than mere ideology. 368 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's so important because like prisons were not 369 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: nice before, they were not humane before. But someone who 370 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 2: is simply trying to run a government prison facility would 371 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: not think of the idea of doing like a doing 372 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: like a shell game yank away of people's music after 373 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: letting them buy it and then make them buy it again. 374 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: That's like, that's not something that like a bad prison 375 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 2: guard comes up with. That's only something that somebody from 376 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: somebody from finance comes up with. 377 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 3: Well, and you know you it helps if the way 378 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 3: that you're running these prisons is by employing guards through 379 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: staffing agency, and so you don't even have to contend 380 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 3: with the rising costs associated with staff turnover when prisoners 381 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 3: go bug fuck crazy because you took all their shit away. Right, 382 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 3: those guards are not your employees and it's not your problem. 383 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 3: The whole thing is is kind of running at several 384 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 3: layers of indirection and remove. It's what Douglas Rushkoff calls 385 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 3: going meta. You know, the don't drive a cab, found Uber, 386 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 3: don't found uber, invest an uber, don't invest in uber, 387 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: invest in uber derivatives, don't investor in uber derivatives, invest 388 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 3: in uber derivative futures. Right, Like go meta, Like get 389 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: further and further away from the useful activity. Yeah, you 390 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: are insulated from the consequences of whatever it is you do. 391 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: And that's such a it's part of it's like a 392 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: recipe for breaking things right because the people who are closest, 393 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: not that they're always good at it in the case 394 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: of prison guards, but the people who are closest to 395 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: the useful activity tend to know how to make things 396 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: work right. Whereas the further away you get from that, 397 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: the more likely your ideas are to break things that 398 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: you wouldn't have even thought of. And again, but for 399 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: that kind of person, everything you break is usually an 400 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: opportunity for financializing something else. 401 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the extent to which finance is the 402 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: true banality of evil is hard to overstate. Yeah, you know, 403 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 3: we think, well, we've heard a lot when you read 404 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: about the Holocaust and World War Two, you hear a 405 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: lot about the cruelty of Nazis, and no one said 406 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 3: to say, well, the Nazis weren't cruel and the ideological 407 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: cruelty of Nazis. So, for example, there were moments where 408 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: rather than transporting troops to decisive battles, they were shipping 409 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: Jews to concentration camps on those same trains and losing 410 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: battles so they could murder more Jews. Right, But up 411 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: the road from Auschwitz was another private concentration camp run 412 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: by ig Farben called Monowitz. And ig Farbin were war profiteers. 413 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 3: They were gouging the Wehrmacht on war material that they 414 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: were manufacturing with slave labor, and they bought thousands of 415 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: slaves from Auschwitz. Preferring women and children because they were cheaper, 416 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 3: and they worked them to death. And the lifespan of 417 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: a slave in Monowitz was only three months before they 418 00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: were worked to death. It was half of what it 419 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 3: was in Auschwitz. The conditions were so bad at Monowitz 420 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: that the SS guards who were seconded to it from 421 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 3: Auschwitz wrote to Berlin to complain about the cruelty of Monowitz. 422 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 3: At the end of the war. In Nuremberg, twenty four 423 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 3: Ig Farben executives were tried for this. Their defense was 424 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: that they had a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to 425 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: maximize returns, and nineteen of them were acquitted on that basis. 426 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, God, and this is you know, before the Chicago 427 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: School guys had really like fully taken over. So this 428 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: this idea that like that was really the only responsibility 429 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: that a business had, even above a moral responsibility, was 430 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: much less established. Like the more you get into how many, 431 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 2: particularly of the money people got off at Nuremberg, Like 432 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: it's maddening stuff. Yeah, indeed, and it is, like I 433 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: think one an accurate way to look at the Holocaust 434 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: from the perspective of those guys is the mining of populations, 435 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 2: like mining them to death. That's really how a lot 436 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: of this like because a huge chunk of especially the 437 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: early stages of Nazi oppression of like starting with German Jews, 438 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: but going beyond that as they conquered more Land, was 439 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: the appropriation of businesses and property, right, like was it 440 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: was mining human beings. And that attitude is persistent. Right, 441 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: It's not just a thing that happens in Nazi Germany. 442 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: It happens whenever you let people who don't have any 443 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: sort of human concern take control of every aspect of life. 444 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 3: And you know, this is some of the structural stuff 445 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 3: that's going on in the book. So my editor on 446 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 3: this book is this great guy, Patrick Nielsen Hayden, who's 447 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: been my editor since my first novel, and I met 448 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: on a BBS in the nineteen eighties, so I've really 449 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: known him most of my life. 450 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 451 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 3: And Patrick, when he gave me the editorial note on 452 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: my first novel, he said something like the way that 453 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: science fiction works is you have a world that is 454 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: like a thought experiment world, and you have a character 455 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 3: who's a microcosm for that world, and they are like 456 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: a big gear that's the world, and a little gear 457 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 3: that's the character. And if the microcosm meshes correctly with 458 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 3: the macrocosm, then as the person spins around and around 459 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 3: doing their plot stuff, they spin around enough times that 460 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 3: the world, the big gear that they're meshed with, makes 461 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: a full revolution. So you have this microcosm macrocosm thing. 462 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 3: And often when a book doesn't work, it's because the 463 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 3: microcosmic macrocosmic correspondences aren't sharp enough. There's some way in 464 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 3: which those teeth aren't meshing. One of the things that 465 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 3: this book tries to do, and that the Martin Hinch 466 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: books generally try to do because they're all about these 467 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 3: these finance scams, these high tech finance scams set in 468 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 3: different eras from the nineteen eighties through the twenty twenties, 469 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 3: is that they try to create a series of these 470 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: similar correspondences between small scams and big scams. You know, 471 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 3: they use the small scam as a kind of setup 472 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 3: or a frame or like a cognitive tool for understanding 473 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 3: the much bigger scam. And so that small scam, that 474 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 3: Ponzi scheme, where you have a person who is setting 475 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: out just for shits and giggles to make some money 476 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 3: by destroying a bunch of other people's lives and viewing 477 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: those people as not as people, but as as things, 478 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: as a means to an end, not as an end 479 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: unto themselves, ends up creating this sadistic, brutal, pointless, and 480 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 3: deliberately unsustainable situation that he knows is going to hurt 481 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: all these other people. And the way that he's able 482 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: to do it is by simply not considering the people 483 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: who are enmeshed in the scheme as fully people entitled 484 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 3: to their own sort of moral consideration. And in the 485 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 3: same way that is that's like a microcosm for the 486 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 3: kinds of decisions that are made when people go on 487 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: to found these prison tech companies and these other companies 488 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: that do these these ghastly things. 489 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: And it's it's also very accurate to how an unfortunate 490 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: number of just like regular people in society and in 491 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 2: government think about the victims of these schemes. Like when 492 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: you when you try to talk about how unfair and 493 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: how much worse this situation has gotten, it's like, well, 494 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 2: they're prisoners, they're being punished, as if. 495 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 4: As if that makes it all okay. 496 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of a it's kind of a like 497 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: a much more extreme and therefore much more easily spotted 498 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 3: version of caveat emptor or you know, not your not 499 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 3: your keys, not your coins. You know these ideas that 500 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 3: if something bad is happening to you, it must be 501 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 3: because you did something bad. 502 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: Right. 503 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 3: That the kind of providential ethics. And I think that 504 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: the work that that does for people is it helps 505 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: them put their own anxiety about their own future to rest, 506 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 3: because you know that the if you are worried that 507 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 3: something bad might happen to you, and you can convince 508 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 3: yourself that the reason that something bad happened to someone 509 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: else is that they had a deficiency right, they committed 510 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 3: a sin, they were foolish, then you don't have to 511 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 3: worry about it happening to you, you know. I I 512 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: a couple of times in the last decade. I have 513 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: been the victim of various kinds of con and I 514 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 3: am also someone who's written a lot about cons. So 515 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: I've been successfully phished once, and I had a phone 516 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 3: scammer talked me out of my credit card number once. 517 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: And I always write about it when it happens, and 518 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 3: I write about it in part because I want to 519 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 3: make sure that people understand that you know, you're not 520 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 3: too smart to be conned. Anyone can be conned and 521 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: so on. And I think that's an inoculant against getting conned. 522 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: But I also do it because the reactions are a 523 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 3: kind of sociological study. 524 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: Right. 525 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: If you want to see into the minds of tech 526 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: bros who justify the terrible things that they are doing 527 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 3: or planning to do, or fantasizing about doing or working 528 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 3: on to other people, look at their fraud apologetics where 529 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 3: they say, you know, oh, that was just a business 530 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: and you know, you had a caveat emptor or you 531 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: were lazy, or you were foolish, or you know, like 532 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: you did something deficient and that's why it happened, and 533 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: so you deserved it. And that means, on the one hand, 534 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 3: it's never going to happen to me because I don't 535 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 3: deserve it. And on the other hand, if I ever 536 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: do it to someone else, that's fine, because if they 537 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: fall victim to it, then they must deserve it. The 538 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 3: old con artist saying that you can't cheat an honest 539 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 3: man in a version of this. 540 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's I mean, that's like it's such a 541 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: limited view of it, right, because It's it's true that 542 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: like there are some cons that you can't trick someone 543 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: into unless they have a little desire for some larceny, right, 544 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: But like an increasing number of cons are just like 545 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: a company using your bank's phone number calling you and 546 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: telling you you've been defrauded, and you give them information 547 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: because you're not used to the or or somebody calls 548 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: using the voice of your child and says that they 549 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: need a ransom payment. Right, that's not you're not there's 550 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: not like dishonesty in your heart because you don't want 551 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: your kid to be kidnapped. 552 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 4: You're just not ready for what tech has been able 553 00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 4: to do, you know. 554 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 3: And well, there are some of those cons where they 555 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 3: you know, they're they're playing on your cupidity or your 556 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: dishonesty to make money off of you. Even in those instances, 557 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 3: it is downstream of a system where it feels like 558 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: you can't survive unless you're cheating, right, like one of 559 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 3: the things. And so multi level marketing is actually a 560 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: theme that runs through all of these books. That the 561 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 3: next one is set in the nineteen eighties and it's 562 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: about a faith scam. It's an early PC company I 563 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 3: made up called the Three Wise Men run by a 564 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 3: Mormon bishop, a Catholic priest, and an Orthodox rabbi who 565 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: use you know, affiliate marketing through congregations to prey on 566 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: their own faith groups. And one of the things about 567 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: these Ponzi schemes, these pyramid schemes, is that they take 568 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 3: the only capital that working people have, which is social capital, 569 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 3: right the relationships they have among one another, and they 570 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: convince them that it is entrepreneurial and therefore virtuous to 571 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: instrumentalize your relationship to the other women in your life 572 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 3: who help you look after your kids, or to your 573 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: coreligionist who you can turn to if things go really 574 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 3: bad at work or with your family or whatever. And 575 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 3: that turning that into a transaction that you can milk, 576 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 3: you know, turning those people into a down line who 577 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 3: have to recruit other people to make you whole so 578 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: that you can feed your own upline is just hustling. 579 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 3: It's just your shot at the American dream. It's you know, 580 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 3: Spike Lee telling you that investing in shit coins is 581 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 3: building black wealth. 582 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I. 583 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: It is like the the fact, and I think low 584 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: key this is one of the top couple of problems 585 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: that we have in this society because it feeds into 586 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: everything else like it, like it's a I think that's 587 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: probably why it runs through so much of your work, 588 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: because this the scam economy, is behind every and it's 589 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: increasingly becoming everything right, and there's this kind of pernicious 590 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: effect where by people don't The more people are victimized 591 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: by this, both the less they trust other people and 592 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: the more the more they begin to accept that, like, well, 593 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: this is just how you get by in our society, right, 594 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: Why shouldn't we take away prison libraries and replace them 595 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: with more expensive kindle that we can yank away at 596 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: any moment. Everyone's always nickel and diming me. I'm always 597 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: getting more money taken away from me by these same people. 598 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: And I'm not even in prison, you. 599 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 3: Know, right, Why shouldn't there be junk fees in prison 600 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: if there's junk fees everywhere else. If you're you know, 601 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 3: local water company that's owned by your city is sold 602 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 3: off to you know, plug a hole in the budget 603 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: because you can't raise taxes, and then they start charging 604 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: you a convenience fee to your your water bill with 605 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 3: a check, and then a different convenience fee to pay 606 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 3: your water bill with a credit card, and a third 607 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 3: convenience fee to pay your water bill in person with cash. 608 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 3: And then you realize that, like there, that none of 609 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: these are convenience fees. They're just they're just fees. 610 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just more money. Yeah yeah, I mean, we're 611 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: in We're in a pretty infuriating situation here, and you 612 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: get to that in the bezel, you really get that across. Well, 613 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: if this guy is trying to deal with the and 614 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: and it kind of brought home to me the horror 615 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: of like having someone you care for in this situation 616 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: and seeing like their avenues for any kind of relief 617 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: edged out, chipped away at for the profit of some 618 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: guy who will never notice the money in his bank account. 619 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean, and you know the the Unlike 620 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 3: Steve Brust, I well, like Steve Breust in some of 621 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 3: those volumes, I told this story from the perspective of 622 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 3: a fairly powerful person who's got a lot of agency, 623 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 3: only because it gives you the opportunity to tell a 624 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 3: story that at least holds out the possibility of some relief. 625 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 3: I'll leave it to the reader to find out what 626 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 3: actually happens at the end. And you know, there have 627 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 3: been successful prisoner uprisings that have been led by working 628 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 3: people who are serving long terms, but for the most 629 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 3: part those uprisings, we never even hear about them. You know, 630 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 3: there was a prison labor strike before lockdown. I believe 631 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 3: it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen. There's a national 632 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 3: prison labor strike, and it barely made a dent in 633 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 3: anyone's consciousness. It was, you know, ultimately one of the 634 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: largest strikes in modern American history. You know, the thousands 635 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,479 Speaker 3: and thousands of workers were on strike, and we didn't 636 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: even hear about it because there's such control over the 637 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 3: narrative about prisons and prisoners that's run by the Carcerle system. 638 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 3: And so you know, by telling this story about someone 639 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 3: who goes into prison all already a millionaire, and who 640 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 3: has a friend on the outside who's kind of a 641 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 3: hustler and a pal, and who is someone who knows 642 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 3: how to finagle the system, I can spin out a 643 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 3: yarn that takes you, like back to Patrick Nielsen Hayden 644 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 3: and the big gear driving the little gear, takes you 645 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 3: on a three hundred and sixty degree tour of how 646 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,240 Speaker 3: fucked up the system is. Rather than just the ant's 647 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 3: i view or the worm's eye view that most people 648 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 3: get because they aren't even able to explore all the 649 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 3: avenues and run into their dead ends because they're just 650 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 3: stuck where they are. 651 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Corey, this has been wonderful. I want to again 652 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,439 Speaker 2: let people know your book, The Bezel is in stores now. 653 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: You can purchase it wherever fine books are sold. Do 654 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,479 Speaker 2: you have a preferred you are l for buying it. 655 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 3: The Dashbezel dot org is fine, but wherever people want 656 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 3: to get it. Yeah, it's a national bestseller for the 657 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 3: third week running. Very good. 658 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 4: That's great. 659 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 3: Whoever feeds into the USA Today bestseller. 660 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: List you apparently, that's wonderful. Yeah, well, Corey, doctor, do 661 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 2: you have anything else you wanted to get to before 662 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: we roll out today? 663 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 3: Well, I guess you know, if you want to follow 664 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 3: the work that I do. Pluralistic dot net is a 665 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 3: newsletter that I write every day or almost every day, 666 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 3: and it's open access it so that means it's Creative 667 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 3: Commons licensed. You can reproduce it. You can reproduce it 668 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 3: and sell it if you want. And there's no DRM, 669 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 3: there's no tracking, there's no you know ads, there's no anything. 670 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 3: It's it's you know, black type on a white background. 671 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 3: You'll never get to pop up asking you whether you 672 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 3: want to subscribe to my mailing list or whatever. Yeah, 673 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 3: And the the email version of it, you can get 674 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 3: it as an email list. The email version also no tracking. 675 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 3: I can't tell when you've opened the email or anything. 676 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 3: I keep no statistics, and I just it's letter in 677 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 3: a bottle I write and throw into the ocean every morning, 678 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 3: and it's great. That's so much fun to write. 679 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 2: It's a great letter in a bottle. You've been talking 680 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: writing a lot, I'm not talking a lot about AI lately, 681 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: and kind of the how that all feeds into a 682 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 2: lot of this this stuff you've been covering about or 683 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: the stuff you write about often about, you know, bezels 684 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 2: and scam economies. And I've I've really enjoyed getting your 685 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: take on that because I think you're one of the 686 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: one of the people who hasn't lost their minds over 687 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: all this stuff. 688 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, I think we're really like so 689 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 3: that the we hear so much about AI disinformation and 690 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: the people who have like most fallen prey to AI 691 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 3: disinformation are bosses who've been convinced that AI is good 692 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 3: enough to fire you and replace you with and you know, 693 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 3: it's like, it's not true. It doesn't mean they won't 694 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 3: do it, right, but it's not true. Yeah, that's that's 695 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 3: actually kind of the worst of all worlds, right, technological 696 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 3: unemployment without without actual replacement. It's just uh, it's just 697 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 3: another bezzel. It's a yeah, it's a It's that long 698 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 3: moment where you think you've zero out your labor force costs, 699 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 3: but you haven't realized that you're no longer productive because 700 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 3: the chapbot keeps, you know, as in the case of 701 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 3: Air Canada, just like telling people they can get refunds 702 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 3: they're not entitled to. And then you know, regulators come 703 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 3: along and smack you around and charge you, you know, 704 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 3: find you for your chatbot having lied to people about 705 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 3: their bereavement, flight discounts and stuff. 706 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to that moment hitting. 707 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: I guess because where we I mean, I do kind 708 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 2: of think we are sort of nearer to the bursting 709 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 2: than we are to the peak of the bubble right now, 710 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 2: But I guess we'll we'll see. 711 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: Well, remember, the market can remain solvent, irrational rather longer 712 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 3: than you can remain solvent. 713 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 4: Yeah. 714 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 3: So I've been predicting the collapse of the London housing bubble, 715 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 3: for example, for a very long time. We're nowhere near it. Yeah. 716 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 3: So that is my that is my humbling lesson. It 717 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 3: is definitely a bubble. It is going to burst when 718 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 3: it's going to burst, and is very very very hard 719 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 3: to predict. 720 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, what we'll burst with it? Yeah, jeez. 721 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: Well, Corey, thank you so much for being on the 722 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: show again. Everybody check out the Bezel Wonderful book and 723 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 2: check out Corey's other wonderful books like walk Away. That's 724 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: the episode, have a good one. 725 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 3: Thanks Robert. 726 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,240 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 727 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 728 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 729 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 730 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 731 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.