Speaker 1: This is Kamala Shelling and you're listening to Switched on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg NEF podcast. In the early days of the
Speaker 1: Iran War, BNF analysts from an array of teams push
Speaker 1: forth the hypothesis that rising fossil fuel prices could be
Speaker 1: a boon for the clean tech trade. When oil and
Speaker 1: gas get expensive. Our argument went, adoption rates of electric vehicles, renewables,
Speaker 1: and other energy transition tech are likely to increase the
Speaker 1: problem was that we had little data to test that
Speaker 1: hypothesis until now. A few days ago, China dropped a
Speaker 1: new set of custom statistics, and our analysts were able
Speaker 1: to see in hard numbers just how clean tech trade
Speaker 1: has changed since February. With US Today to explain is
Speaker 1: Antoine Wagner Jones, BNF's head of Trade and Supply Chains.
Speaker 1: Our conversation is based on the analyst reaction china clean
Speaker 1: tech exports trend up amid high oil prices, as well
Speaker 1: as the brand new energy transition supply Chain's outlook twenty
Speaker 1: twenty six. BNF clients can find more from Antoin's team
Speaker 1: by heading to BNF Supply Chains, go on the Bloomberg Terminal,
Speaker 1: or at BNF Dot com. If you'd like to learn
Speaker 1: more about how BNF covers the energy transition writ large
Speaker 1: from development and commodity markets to the cross cut in
Speaker 1: technologies shaping the future, you can find out more at
Speaker 1: BNF dot com. And if you'd like to speak with
Speaker 1: a member of our team about becoming a client, email
Speaker 1: US Sales dot BNF at Bloomberg dot net. But for now,
Speaker 1: let's dive into my conversation with Antoine. Welcome back, Antoine.
Speaker 1: It's so good to have you back on the podcast.
Speaker 2: It's great to be a kamana. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: So when we were preparing this conversation, I asked you
Speaker 1: what is the event that we're responding to, because usually
Speaker 1: our Analyst Reaction podcasts come after a very specific event
Speaker 1: has occurred. And you said, in this case, the event
Speaker 1: is this massive data drop out of China. And I
Speaker 1: was thinking about the fact that, you know, BNF, we
Speaker 1: are surrounded by data all the time everywhere, and even
Speaker 1: within this massive flood of data we're always in, there
Speaker 1: are some data that are just stand out from the rest.
Speaker 1: So why does this day account as an event and
Speaker 1: what is it?
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and basically it's all about Chinese
Speaker 2: customs statistics. On the third week around then of every month,
Speaker 2: China's Customs Agency releases it's specific data about imports and
Speaker 2: exports of all these different products that we track, and
Speaker 2: we've been looking very closely at a few specific products
Speaker 2: within that and those have namely been what we broadly
Speaker 2: call clean technologies, so solar modules, solar cells, electric vehicles
Speaker 2: of different types, and batteries so liftimine batteries. And what
Speaker 2: we're really trying to understand is whether or not we're
Speaker 2: seeing any change compared to the historic trend line. And
Speaker 2: one of the feces that we've got basically is that
Speaker 2: we've got the Iran War putting, you know, with all
Speaker 2: the dips and drops and all the whipsawing that we're
Speaker 2: seeing in oil and gas markets, we're still in a
Speaker 2: period of elevated prices and that's led to a lot
Speaker 2: of strain sort of being put on countries that are
Speaker 2: big fossil fuel impauses. So the idea is that basically
Speaker 2: a lot of these countries are going to start importing
Speaker 2: clean technology to try and counter the sudden inflationary pressure
Speaker 2: put on them by whether it's diesel, gasoline, imports, whether
Speaker 2: it's natural gas via liquefied natural gas LNG, and we
Speaker 2: were pretty certain that this would have an impact and
Speaker 2: we'd see an acceleration, but we weren't really able to
Speaker 2: say anything smart until we got the customs data coming in.
Speaker 2: And we had a first wave of data come in
Speaker 2: for the month of March, which was extremely interesting but
Speaker 2: maybe not conclusive. And then most recently we have the
Speaker 2: April data that's come in which has really backed up
Speaker 2: a lot of the views that we sort of developed
Speaker 2: over the last few weeks.
Speaker 1: So to clarify, we're talking about solar products, EV products
Speaker 1: and battery products that are coming out of China. Do
Speaker 1: we also know where those products are going?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. Around fourteen billion dollars of all of these
Speaker 2: different things added together were exported from China last year.
Speaker 2: A lot of them are going going to Europe, a
Speaker 2: lot of them are going to US. Those are the
Speaker 2: two big centers for demand for clean technology still in
Speaker 2: the world outside of China, and naturally a lot of
Speaker 2: those goods are flowing to those countries. There's big caveats.
Speaker 2: China doesn't really export evs to the US for various reasons.
Speaker 2: There's basically rules that ban so called connected cars that
Speaker 2: are linked to China from being on American roads. There
Speaker 2: are very high tariffs. Historically, there've been limits on subsidies
Speaker 2: being given out or tax credits for passenger electric vehicles
Speaker 2: if there was Chinese involvement in the making of the
Speaker 2: battery or of the vehicle itself. So there's been all
Speaker 2: of these different hindrances and roadblocks, which means that ev
Speaker 2: exports to the US aren't really a thing, much more
Speaker 2: of a thing to the EU. And then when we
Speaker 2: look at batteries, a lot is going to the US
Speaker 2: because of this sudden boom that we're seeing in stationary storage,
Speaker 2: despite the fact that there are pretty high tariffs on
Speaker 2: batteries coming from China in the US and otherwise Europe
Speaker 2: is pretty well represented as well. But maybe what's very
Speaker 2: interesting too is that, i mean, historically over the last
Speaker 2: few years, every year we see an inching up of
Speaker 2: Chinese exports that are destined for emerging markets. These countries
Speaker 2: what you can define them in different ways, but you
Speaker 2: can use the World Banks classifications of everything sort of
Speaker 2: under a rich country or an upper income country, so
Speaker 2: you can look at all of these lower income middle
Speaker 2: income countries, and you can see the share that they
Speaker 2: make up of Chinese imports for all of these different
Speaker 2: clean technology goods is going upwards. And what's really interesting
Speaker 2: now when we look at this data is that we're
Speaker 2: seeing regions that are especially exposed to fossil fuel imports
Speaker 2: and gas products make up more than three percent of
Speaker 2: Vietnam and the Philippines GDP. That was the case last year.
Speaker 2: Thailand imports around two percent of its GDP in natural gas.
Speaker 2: So countries in Southeast Asia, but also countries in South
Speaker 2: Asia and countries in Sub Saharan Africa are very exposed
Speaker 2: to these kind of price pleasures from the kinds of
Speaker 2: shocks that we've been seeing as a result of the
Speaker 2: Iran War, and they've been quite well represented in this data.
Speaker 2: So if you look at the increase in exports of
Speaker 2: a lot of these goods, what we see is that
Speaker 2: Southeast Asia has grown quite quickly, and we've also seen
Speaker 2: a number of South Asian trees grow fast too. And
Speaker 2: we're going to be doing a lot more analysis over
Speaker 2: the coming weeks, specifically looking at which countries are growing
Speaker 2: fastest and which seem like they're primed to suddenly boom
Speaker 2: in terms of imports.
Speaker 1: So just to recap the data we have is we
Speaker 1: have the volume in monetary figures of exports coming out
Speaker 1: of China. We know where these exports are going, we
Speaker 1: know the relative wealth of the countries they are going to.
Speaker 1: We know how much fossil fuel imports each of these
Speaker 1: countries have. So now let's talk about actually what the
Speaker 1: April data shows, what has gone up, what has gone down,
Speaker 1: and relating it back to your hypothesis you mentioned at
Speaker 1: the beginning, which is oil price shocks, gas price shocks
Speaker 1: after the start of the Iran war is going to
Speaker 1: boost clean tech exports and imports. How is that playing out.
Speaker 2: So we have the data absolutely like you said, we
Speaker 2: have in value in dollar value. But what we also
Speaker 2: do at BNF is we convert it into the relevant figures.
Speaker 2: So there's things like evs are also reported in units,
Speaker 2: so number of cars for solar for batteries. We have
Speaker 2: an in house methodology that allows us to then convert
Speaker 2: those figures into something that's more useful when we're looking
Speaker 2: at it from an energy angle, So we can convert
Speaker 2: it to gig what hours for batteries, for example, gig
Speaker 2: what's for solar and those are the numbers that we're
Speaker 2: looking at. And when we think about April, what's really
Speaker 2: interesting is that March already was a huge boom year.
Speaker 2: So when we look at March twenty twenty six and
Speaker 2: we compare it to the previous months to February, exports
Speaker 2: of Chinese batteries increased by the order of around forty
Speaker 2: four percent, so just over that month. And then when
Speaker 2: we look at solar and we some sort of solar
Speaker 2: models and solar cells, they basically doubled. And that was
Speaker 2: a real that was incredibly interesting, and that was also
Speaker 2: far from really being conclusive in any kind of way.
Speaker 2: And why is that. That's because of the fact that
Speaker 2: when you're looking at this trade data, you can't just say, well,
Speaker 2: we're seeing high fossil fuel prices as a sudden jump
Speaker 2: in exports that must be linked. We actually have to
Speaker 2: go beyond that a bit and look at a number
Speaker 2: of other factors that could be relevant. And it just
Speaker 2: so happened that March was the last month where rebates
Speaker 2: would be available for solar exporters, so for exporters of
Speaker 2: solar products out from China, and the rebate that is
Speaker 2: given to exporters of lithiumind batteries was reduced, so that
Speaker 2: basically means less favorable terms for exporters of clean technology
Speaker 2: coming out from China. And that's part of why we
Speaker 2: saw this sudden rush to benefit from those terms while
Speaker 2: they remained available, because they were basically going to stop
Speaker 2: or be reduced or curtailed in April. So we saw
Speaker 2: a huge jump, as I mentioned in exports in March,
Speaker 2: but because of the policy context within China, we weren't
Speaker 2: able to say, okay, well, this is conclusive evidence that
Speaker 2: the Iran War is having an impact on global energy
Speaker 2: trade from the perspective of clean tech. So what we
Speaker 2: were waiting for is this month, so April, because April,
Speaker 2: if we look at the data, then you know, all
Speaker 2: things considered, we've got past this sudden lurch as a
Speaker 2: result of tax rebates or rebates for exporters being reduced
Speaker 2: or removed entirely in the case of solar, and then
Speaker 2: we can begin to make some observations that perhaps are
Speaker 2: a little bit more indicative of trends that we're seeing
Speaker 2: that are linked to the Iran war. And that's when
Speaker 2: things were quite interesting. That's when we saw something really
Speaker 2: pretty impressive where battery electric vehicle exports reached two hundred
Speaker 2: and eighty six thousand cars shipped in a single month,
Speaker 2: and that's a record since we started counting. Our trade
Speaker 2: data that we sort of published on our website goes
Speaker 2: back to twenty seventeen, so that's a historic record, like
Speaker 2: that's never before have we reached those heights. And I mean,
Speaker 2: with all the reports that we're seeing of ev uptake
Speaker 2: being sort of buoyed by the fact of that the
Speaker 2: Iran war is putting a lot of pressure up on
Speaker 2: pump prices, then that seems like there's a correlation that
Speaker 2: could be indicative of a link. And what we've also
Speaker 2: seen is a month on month game for solar cells,
Speaker 2: for LIFTIU modules and Lift your Mind batteries, not compared
Speaker 2: to the previous month, but compared to the twelvemonth average
Speaker 2: that we have sort of before the crisis, and there
Speaker 2: we see pretty substantial increases of at least ten percent
Speaker 2: or more based on against that average. And that's also
Speaker 2: at a time when solar module prices are being pushed
Speaker 2: up slightly because of the fact that there's this rebate
Speaker 2: that's collapsed and because of the fact that we're also
Speaker 2: seeing pretty high silver prices. Aluminium prices have also gone
Speaker 2: up as a result of the Iran War. So really
Speaker 2: interesting that we just when we look at historical averages,
Speaker 2: what we are seeing is a huge growth in battery
Speaker 2: electric vehicles that's visible month versus month or month. But
Speaker 2: we're also seeing this pretty impressive growth in solar exports
Speaker 2: and battery exports even after this huge boom that we
Speaker 2: saw in March. So what we're going to be doing
Speaker 2: is we're going to be looking over the coming months
Speaker 2: to see whether or not this was a sort of
Speaker 2: a blip or whether or not this is the beginning
Speaker 2: of what we think could be a step change or
Speaker 2: an accelvative effects over the shorter to mid term. And
Speaker 2: that's something that we're going to be looking at very
Speaker 2: closey and going to be publishing in the form of
Speaker 2: monthly analysis pieces, looking at not just where things are
Speaker 2: increasing and by how much and how that compares to
Speaker 2: historic volatility measures, but also we're going to be sort
Speaker 2: of looking at for looking for correlation with countries that
Speaker 2: are particularly dependent on fossil fuels. So where though fossil
Speaker 2: fuel imports make up a particularly high share of GDP,
Speaker 2: and we're going to be looking very closely to see
Speaker 2: whether or not there's a correlation there. And then that
Speaker 2: becomes very interesting to manufacturers, for example, whether there's South Korean,
Speaker 2: whether they're Chinese manufacturers, because they're right now in an
Speaker 2: environment that's marked by overcapacity. Is quite difficult to be
Speaker 2: a manufacturer and make money in a lot of these sectors.
Speaker 2: So they're really eager to try and suss out where
Speaker 2: the new growth markets are going to be. And they're
Speaker 2: really eager to understand the impacts of the Iran war
Speaker 2: and what kind of factors might be driving a rise
Speaker 2: in exports to this or that country.
Speaker 1: So you've given us a whole bunch again, a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of data points that you have to sort of
Speaker 1: navigate and bring together to try to pull apart what
Speaker 1: is coincidence in this data? You're looking at what is causality,
Speaker 1: the price of manufacturing various clean tech parts, the price
Speaker 1: of the metals that go into it. But it sounds
Speaker 1: like pretty much everything you've given us up to this
Speaker 1: point is largely economic space. So what's expensive, what's inexpensive?
Speaker 1: Where can we make money? I'm curious if you've also
Speaker 1: seen countries changing their policies in the last couple of
Speaker 1: months to try to improve clean tech uptakes. So you
Speaker 1: know our countries passing new laws to try to help
Speaker 1: people adopt electric vehicles. Are there new laws that are
Speaker 1: going to help people adopt solar and batteries or is
Speaker 1: it too early to see a response like that to
Speaker 1: the vicissitudes of the Iran war.
Speaker 2: So there's a number of trackers out there, and we're
Speaker 2: also tracking this stuff, looking at, for example, the impact
Speaker 2: of the Iran War on well, the link between the
Speaker 2: Iran War and policies that are specifically angling to reduce
Speaker 2: energy demand, whether that's fuel for the transport segment, whether
Speaker 2: that's electricity demand, to reduce the strain on the grid.
Speaker 2: And there there's dozens and dozens and dozens of countries
Speaker 2: that have introduced measures, oftentimes multiple interventions in parallel to
Speaker 2: try and make some kind of an impact and try
Speaker 2: and make some kind of a dent in demand and
Speaker 2: therefore ease of the pressure on the public purse, but
Speaker 2: also ease the pressure on the outflow and foreign exchange
Speaker 2: that we're seeing in lots of emerging markets that typically
Speaker 2: have to pay for these fossil fuel imports in hard currency.
Speaker 2: What's interesting is that we've also identified as subset of
Speaker 2: countries that are putting in place policies specifically designed to
Speaker 2: incentivize the deployment of, for example, electric vehicles. That's something
Speaker 2: that we've seen in certain Latin American countries. Is also
Speaker 2: something that we've seen in Me and Marth for example,
Speaker 2: has in place of temporary exemption for imported evs, so
Speaker 2: exempting them from tariffs. LAO has cut road taxes for
Speaker 2: evs while concurrently raising them for internal combustion engine vehicles,
Speaker 2: and then Cambodia also interesting is has introduced tariff exemptions
Speaker 2: for evs along with exemptions for for solar and for batteries.
Speaker 2: Now a lot of these are actually quite focused on EV's,
Speaker 2: which is sort of interesting because the car fleet takes
Speaker 2: a while to turn around to renew and the immediate
Speaker 2: impact of some of these policies on fuel demand is
Speaker 2: really not going to be noticeable in the and at
Speaker 2: least in the short term. But what this is really
Speaker 2: reflecting is the fact that these countries are starting to
Speaker 2: see their position as countries that are trying really hard
Speaker 2: to find hedging strategies for importing look financial gas, or
Speaker 2: trying to think about how to diversify away from oil.
Speaker 2: They've been thinking about this for a while, but now
Speaker 2: they're sort of realizing that this is becoming extremely important
Speaker 2: to focus on, especially given that nowadays you've got this
Speaker 2: incredible availability of low cost, high quality clean technology, much
Speaker 2: of which is produced in China, but much of which
Speaker 2: is also produced in other countries like Japan, South Korea.
Speaker 2: So really interesting intervention is happening. A lot of them
Speaker 2: focus on the transport segment, but a lot of the activity,
Speaker 2: and I think this is really important as well, is
Speaker 2: not government driven. It's consumer driven. And that's why we're
Speaker 2: seeing these sort of booms in imports of solar modules,
Speaker 2: for example, many of which are sort of distributed solar,
Speaker 2: many of which are behind the meter, many of which
Speaker 2: are for the residential segment, but also for commercial on
Speaker 2: industrial projects, and not so much part of a sudden
Speaker 2: jump towards increasing the amount of tendered utility scale solar
Speaker 2: projects in a given country. So a lot of this
Speaker 2: is consumer got driven, even though we're also seeing many
Speaker 2: government interventions, especially around electric vehicles and the consumer driven stuff.
Speaker 2: When it comes to batteries and solar and then you know,
Speaker 2: building more wind as well. That has much more of
Speaker 2: an a media impact on fuel burn than measures to
Speaker 2: try and over the coming year incentivize more evs on
Speaker 2: the road.
Speaker 1: That is really fascinating. So if that question is about
Speaker 1: trying to incentivize imports or maybe not, but you know
Speaker 1: the import question, the flip side then is potentially incentivizing exports.
Speaker 1: And it just so happens. We're talking about two and
Speaker 1: a half hours after your team's big Supply Chains outlook
Speaker 1: was published, and one of the big stories in there
Speaker 1: is the world has a way more manufacturing capacity for
Speaker 1: clean tech than probably demand, and China has so much
Speaker 1: manufacturing capacity. So even as we're seeing these exports rise
Speaker 1: out of China, is China putting in new laws to
Speaker 1: try to encourage exports trying to sell these products? You
Speaker 1: did mention which may belie this this they've cut this
Speaker 1: export rebate, but I'm curious, is China trying to do
Speaker 1: anything to get their clean technology into other countries?
Speaker 2: So China has been doing basically carrying out textbook industrial
Speaker 2: strategy around increasing the manufacturer and then the export of
Speaker 2: clean technologies over a decade plus and it's been incredibly consistent,
Speaker 2: and there's been all these different bumps and issues along
Speaker 2: the way, But what you've seen is is a pretty
Speaker 2: determined attempt at getting to a stage where export competitiveness
Speaker 2: is something that is really a given when it comes
Speaker 2: to China's ability to outcompete many of his other peers
Speaker 2: when it comes to liftumine batteries or solar products or
Speaker 2: increasingly electric vehicles. But what we've also seen, just like
Speaker 2: you said, is that really interestingly, we have way more
Speaker 2: in the way of manufacturing capacity for a lot of
Speaker 2: this stuff than the world theoretically needs, even for the
Speaker 2: years to come. And that's really odd because when we
Speaker 2: think about the energy transition, what we're really used to
Speaker 2: looking at in pieces like our Energy Transition Investment Trends Report.
Speaker 2: It's a big piece that we put out where we
Speaker 2: basically tally up all of the investments that are happening
Speaker 2: and we compare them to theosically what's needed to be
Speaker 2: on track of this or that climate scenario. And what
Speaker 2: you see is that most sectors are found wanting, most
Speaker 2: sectors fall short. And that's when you look at the
Speaker 2: upstream part of the equation, especially when you look at
Speaker 2: manufacturing as a segment and manufacturing capacity for all of
Speaker 2: these different sectors. That's when the picture is completely flipped
Speaker 2: and you have way more in the way of investment
Speaker 2: than we theoretically need. And that's really good news when
Speaker 2: it comes to the energy transition writ large. If the
Speaker 2: aim is to procure clean tech at low cost, then
Speaker 2: that's great. That's less good news if you're a manufacturer,
Speaker 2: because suddenly your margins are compressed and you're really struggling,
Speaker 2: and we're seeing that and move towards consolidation, and then
Speaker 2: here and there some bankruptcies and suddenly localization in regions
Speaker 2: that want to sort of capture part of this value
Speaker 2: add that want to capture some of this manufacturing are
Speaker 2: really struggling to make the case for that in a
Speaker 2: context of oversupply. So it's a bit of a double
Speaker 2: edged sword. But I would just stress that it's the
Speaker 2: energy transition. We're usually used to talking about the fact
Speaker 2: that we're not doing enough and now we need to
Speaker 2: accelerate things, all the while celebrating the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: SOLO has been over the last few years growing extremely
Speaker 2: fast et cetera et cetera. But generally speaking, the page
Speaker 2: is one where we need to do more. But when
Speaker 2: we talk about manufacturing, the picture is completely different. And
Speaker 2: it means that when we suddenly see these jumps in
Speaker 2: demand as a result of, for example, the crisis in
Speaker 2: the Persian Gulf, the response can be quite fast and
Speaker 2: exports can scale pretty quickly. Now the Chinese government is
Speaker 2: you know, sees these sectors are strategic, but it also
Speaker 2: it recognizes the fact that they aren't going to alone,
Speaker 2: you know, plug the hole that's left by the housing
Speaker 2: crisis that China has been still suffering from over the
Speaker 2: last few years. And what's worried about as well is
Speaker 2: the fact that this could be something of a bubble,
Speaker 2: and this could be a bit of a strategic risk
Speaker 2: as well if we suddenly see all these bankruptcies and
Speaker 2: sectors that are really struggling. So it's trying to sort
Speaker 2: of rain in a race towards the bottom when it
Speaker 2: comes to pricing across a lot of these different sectors,
Speaker 2: and it's also trying to dampen some of the incentives
Speaker 2: for exporting and trying to get companies to sort of
Speaker 2: wind down some of their older manufacturing facilities. Because it
Speaker 2: sees that as being you know, pretty important when it
Speaker 2: comes to these sector's health. And that's something that we've
Speaker 2: covered in lot of detail in the report our Energy
Speaker 2: our Energy Transition Supply Chains Outlook report that just came
Speaker 2: out today.
Speaker 1: And so as your final question, this is monthly data.
Speaker 1: Next month there's going to be a new set of
Speaker 1: data coming out from China. What is the one key
Speaker 1: figure that you are most excited to see.
Speaker 2: I'm interested in having a couple of months of data
Speaker 2: to now start to look for correlations between growth in
Speaker 2: imports let's say, of solar for example, and then reliance
Speaker 2: of a given country's power sector on imported fossil fuels.
Speaker 2: And that's something that we can chart in a number
Speaker 2: of different ways, and that would be really interesting because
Speaker 2: when we can start to see whether or not these
Speaker 2: relationships exist, then we can start to maybe think about
Speaker 2: having a bit more of a forward looking view. And
Speaker 2: that's something that's very valuable because in the past we've
Speaker 2: seen these sudden booms over the last few years in
Speaker 2: places like for example, Pakistan a few years ago for
Speaker 2: huge increase in imports of solo products, which really was
Speaker 2: completely unexpected, and that what we didn't have was an
Speaker 2: ability to predict that that was going to happen. And
Speaker 2: what we didn't have was an ability to say, well,
Speaker 2: why didn't that happen in Nigeria. So what we want
Speaker 2: to do is we want to do in the context
Speaker 2: of the Iran war. We want to be tracking this
Speaker 2: data and seeing how it lines up. And you know,
Speaker 2: reliance on so net fossil fuel imports versus GDP is
Speaker 2: one measure, and then there will be many other measures
Speaker 2: that we can look at too, because we collect all
Speaker 2: this data around retail power prices, on electricity demands growth,
Speaker 2: and then we also look at things like the average
Speaker 2: duration of blackouts. There's all these other factors that mean
Speaker 2: that we suddenly, you know, in being interested in seeing
Speaker 2: looking for correlations with the Iran war, we can then
Speaker 2: also begin to consider other factors and then that means
Speaker 2: that we might be able to start to be a
Speaker 2: bit more predictive in our view on clean tech trade flows.
Speaker 1: Well, Antoine, thank you so much. This has been absolutely fast.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by cam Gray
Speaker 3: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg. NEIF is a
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