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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup with Cheryl McCollum and the

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Speaker 1: one and only Nancy Grace. Nancy, I just got to

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Speaker 1: start immediately with oj Simpson. I remember you were in

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Speaker 1: the DA's office, your phone rings, somebody, some reporter somewhere

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Speaker 1: calls and ask you your opinion, and honey, you gave

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Speaker 1: it and went on about your day. And the next

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Speaker 1: thing all of us know is they want you to

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Speaker 1: basically debate Johnny cochrane. And we were all like, oh lord,

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Speaker 1: what is going to happen? And you know, it went

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Speaker 1: from there and then you're on TV. You're on TV

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Speaker 1: all the time. So yesterday when I heard that he

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Speaker 1: had died, one of the first people I thought about

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Speaker 1: was you, is that some sort of a question. It's

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Speaker 1: not a question, it's just I will ask you a

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Speaker 1: good question.

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Speaker 2: But yin, I object. I object to the compound soliloquy

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum has just delivered. I hope my name is

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Speaker 2: not forever linked with that of Orenthal James Simpson. Please

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Speaker 2: don't throw me in that pot to Steve. I was

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Speaker 2: just talking to our longtime friend, defense attorney Renee Rockwell

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Speaker 2: in Atlanta. She's like the king of the drug cases. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I guess, Queen. I mean, you get caught with some crack,

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Speaker 2: you better call Renee Rockwell.

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Speaker 1: Amen, I said.

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Speaker 2: She reminded me that we had a bet. I bet

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Speaker 2: her that not only and I did it twice. I

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Speaker 2: never learned. I bet that O. J. Simpson would absolutely

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Speaker 2: get convicted and that Michael Jackson would absolutely get convicted. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so you know everybody called me a human light detector. Obviously, Ah,

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Speaker 2: that is just a big lie, Okay, because I just

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Speaker 2: still to this day can't believe that there was an

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Speaker 2: eight kid. But I'm going to tell you something that happened.

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Speaker 2: I got invited to be on That's when Heraldo Rivera

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Speaker 2: had a daytime show, and I it was a big

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Speaker 2: deal to fly to New York and be on the

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Speaker 2: Heraldo Rivera show. And it was cold, and I had

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Speaker 2: my cheap little Atlanta coat on, and I was going

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Speaker 2: to be on with three of the jurors. Let's see,

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Speaker 2: what was the name. They had written a book. I

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Speaker 2: think it was something like and Madam Foreman or something

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Speaker 2: like that in the name of the book about their

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Speaker 2: experience being on the OJ Simpson murder trial. And I,

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Speaker 2: of course thought they were all crazy and wrong. But

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Speaker 2: the verdict was done, the case was done, and they

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Speaker 2: were three little ladies. I don't know they were old.

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Speaker 2: I'd say they were in there, maybe forties, fifties, sixties,

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Speaker 2: some middle aged ladies. So I disagreed with them on

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Speaker 2: the show very politely, because it was all over. Was

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Speaker 2: the point of finding now there's nothing I could do

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Speaker 2: to affect the verdict or justice, and I didn't feel

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Speaker 2: any need to be rude to these ladies, even though

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Speaker 2: they were complete lunatics. We left, okay, and I got

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Speaker 2: to wave at Heraldo goodbye, and you know, he's a

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Speaker 2: big star, and I'm like, wow, I'm so lucky I

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Speaker 2: got to come here. Blah blah. We walked outside and

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Speaker 2: I was waiting on a cab and a big stretch

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Speaker 2: limo pulled up for the three lady Gerrars.

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Speaker 1: Y'all.

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Speaker 2: I actually hugged them goodbye, poor misled creatures that they were.

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Speaker 2: And the words of the lady Gerrors that being on

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Speaker 2: the Simpson Jury was the best thing that ever happened

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Speaker 2: to them, with all the new clothes and the fancy

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Speaker 2: hotels and being taken out to dinner and the Bookhunters

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Speaker 2: and the money from the book, and all I could

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Speaker 2: say think about or Nicole and Ron lying their dead

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Speaker 2: on the driveway, and I remember it was right then

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Speaker 2: it started to snow, and I was just like standing

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Speaker 2: their frozen, not from the snow, but from the reality

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Speaker 2: of how wrong that verdict was. And I've got to

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Speaker 2: tell you, it really messed up my mind that there

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Speaker 2: could be such a verdict that was so wrong in

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Speaker 2: such a high profile case. And you know, Cheryl, I've

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Speaker 2: thought about it a lot about Simpson's legacy, like if

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Speaker 2: you could call it that again, he got the golden

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Speaker 2: ticket when he got that not guilty, but never accept

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Speaker 2: the responsibility, never apologized, never did good works, nothing, you know,

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Speaker 2: moved to Florida to dodge taxes and spent the rest

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Speaker 2: of his life boozing, drugging and golfing somew you know.

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Speaker 2: You know, he still gets free drinks, free food, courtside seats.

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Speaker 2: He's cheered and applauded at every bar and restaurant he

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Speaker 2: goes to. But he is no hero, he is no legend.

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Speaker 2: He's a wife beater that morphed into a double killer.

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Speaker 2: And he played on his celebrity and he got a

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Speaker 2: not guilty verdict. A lot of people have asked me,

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Speaker 2: did Cochrane know Simpson was guilty? Yes, he knew, Remember

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Speaker 2: I told you that. I often asked him, and during

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Speaker 2: the time we were co anchors, he would never say yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: He would always say Jerry acquitted him. He would never

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Speaker 2: say no, no, he didn't do it. So I look

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Speaker 2: at this in a different way as a crime victim myself.

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Speaker 2: It just feels like a revictimization. And then, as you'll

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Speaker 2: recall Cheryl, in Inner City in Atlanta, I try a

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Speaker 2: guy named Charles Erlick and it was a big case.

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Speaker 2: It was trafficking in cocaine. He was a rich playboy

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Speaker 2: that lived in a high rise in Buckhead where the

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Speaker 2: rich people live in Atlanta on Peachtree Street. And I

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Speaker 2: tried him for trafficking in cocaine, got a conviction, got

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Speaker 2: twenty years on um Cheryl twenty years. Charles Arlic aka

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Speaker 2: Charlie Tuna. What a surprise when I find out all

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Speaker 2: those years later, somehow, out of every person in the world,

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Speaker 2: he makes his way to OJ Simpson and together some

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Speaker 2: other guys, they go and commit an armed robbery in

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Speaker 2: a Vegas hotel, Charlie Tuna, OJ Simpson at it again.

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Speaker 2: It's like, you know, Tuna gets out of jail and

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Speaker 2: you think, hey, I never want to go back to

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Speaker 2: jail again. And Simpson's on a not guilty thinking and

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Speaker 2: I never want to be in front of another jury again.

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Speaker 2: But what happens water Seeks is on level right, and

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Speaker 2: they end up together in Vegas to commit an armed robbery.

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Speaker 2: When I heard that name Charles Early, I thought, could

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Speaker 2: that possibly be Charlie Tuna? Could it be? And it was.

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Speaker 2: So My point is not to rehash the armed robbery

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Speaker 2: in Vegas. The point is nothing changes. They never change.

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Speaker 2: Man if I had escaped a double murder rap, I

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Speaker 2: think I go live in a monastery and do good

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Speaker 2: works the rest of my life. But that's not how

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Speaker 2: it works out, does it. Cheryl. Another issue that the

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Speaker 2: death of Simpson brings up is there ain't no justice right,

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Speaker 2: And I'm talking about domestic violence absolutely. Those pictures of

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Speaker 2: Nicole with their face in a mush, and I've played

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Speaker 2: back some of her nine to one one calls on

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Speaker 2: my own program, Crime Stories, which is on MSM. That's

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Speaker 2: Doctor Fiel's new network, by the way, and I hear

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Speaker 2: her voice frantic, with Simpson in the background trying to

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Speaker 2: beat down the door. I spoke in depth with her boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: Keith Salamsowitch, and Simpson went, actually, this is after Simpson

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Speaker 2: and Nicole Brown had divorced. He would follow her around

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Speaker 2: and show up at restaurants where they were trying to

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Speaker 2: break in to her house when they were in there together.

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Speaker 2: So she finally had to quit sing Salamsowitch And it's

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Speaker 2: amazing to me that nobody can figure out that the

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Speaker 2: guy that has been beating her, harassing her, following her

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Speaker 2: is the guy that murdered her. Domestic violence. I don't

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Speaker 2: know that it ever gets any better, and this is

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Speaker 2: an example of how it typically gets worse.

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Speaker 1: I was reading what Kim Goldman posted yesterday and she

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Speaker 1: said something that just really stuck with me. Part of

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Speaker 1: what she said is when you have this journey of grief,

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Speaker 1: it's not linear. So even with his death yesterday, they're

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Speaker 1: still dealing with all this trauma and this different levels

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Speaker 1: of what they have to try to maneuver through and

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Speaker 1: traverse through that they didn't start. They had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with any of it. They were completely innocent people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, what Cheryl, You're right about the victim's reaction.

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Speaker 2: In a way, I think it leaves a big empty

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Speaker 2: spot because ever since the murders. First they were out

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Speaker 2: for justice, then they got the horrible blow of the

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Speaker 2: not guilty verdicts. Then they had the civil trial and

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Speaker 2: they got millions and millions dollar verdicts against Simpson. Remember

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Speaker 2: how horribly he failed his line detector. How it turned

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Speaker 2: out he lied about the Bruno Molly's shoes, which were

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Speaker 2: absolutely the shoes that left bloody footprints at the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: And I know there's a lot of theories that there

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Speaker 2: were two killers, or that the killer was Simpson's son.

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Speaker 2: That's all bs one set of Bruno Molly's shoes, bloody

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Speaker 2: footprints back and forth between the two dead bodies. There

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Speaker 2: was one killer that came out at the civil trial

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Speaker 2: where Simpson had denied owning any such shoes, and then

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Speaker 2: an old photo emerged from the Inquirer of him on

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Speaker 2: the sideline and a football game wearing Bruno Molly's shoes.

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Speaker 2: So everything he ever said was just a lie. My

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Speaker 2: point is, the family went through the murders, then they

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Speaker 2: went through the criminal trial, then they went through the

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Speaker 2: civil trial. Then they tried to get him to pay judgment.

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Speaker 2: He moves to Florida to escape taxes. Do you know

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Speaker 2: he goes to his grave, owing them over one hundred

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Speaker 2: million dollars. I know money is not going to make

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Speaker 2: them feel any better, But now there's just emptiness and

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Speaker 2: the reality that Ron and Nicole are gone and they're

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Speaker 2: never coming back. You know, I don't remember the jurors now.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember all the defense witnesses or what were

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Speaker 2: said at the trial, not every detail, but I know this,

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Speaker 2: that was a travesty. He escaped justice on this earth, Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: but not now, because right now he's having supper with Satan.

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Speaker 2: He's in hell and that's where he's going to stay.

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Speaker 2: He had the chance to change his life, to accept responsibility,

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Speaker 2: to use his fame for anything good, but he didn't.

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Speaker 2: That is his legacy as far as I'm concerned.

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Speaker 1: And the reality is there's never going to be a

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Speaker 1: winner here. You now have four children that have lost

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Speaker 1: a father. They now don't have either parent two of them.

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Speaker 1: You've got another family sitting there saying okay, we don't

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Speaker 1: even know how to process this. You've got Nichole's family

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Speaker 1: as well, that are they ever going to now have

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Speaker 1: any type of justice. You've got oj Simpsons saying I'm

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Speaker 1: going to look for the real killer. Now, well, I

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Speaker 1: guess that investigation has stopped too now. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: whole thing is just so sad. There's no winner here. Ever,

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Speaker 1: I do want to give Kim Goleman the last word,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to read verbatim a tweet that she

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Speaker 1: put out yesterday. The news of Ron's killer passing away

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Speaker 1: is a mixed bag of complicated emotions and reminds us

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Speaker 1: that the journey through grief is not linear. For three decades,

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Speaker 1: we tirelessly pursued justice for Ron and Nicole, and despite

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Speaker 1: a civil judgment and his confession in the book If

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Speaker 1: I Did It, the hope for true accountability has ended.

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Speaker 1: We will continue to advocate for the rights of all

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Speaker 1: victims and survivors, ensuring our voices are heard both within

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Speaker 1: and beyond the courtroom. And despite his death, the mission continues.

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Speaker 1: There's always more to be done. Thank you for keeping

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Speaker 1: our family and most importantly, Ron, in your hearts for

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Speaker 1: the last thirty years, Kim and Fred Golman. So there's

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Speaker 1: two other cases that we're still watching. There is still

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Speaker 1: no word on Sebastian Rogers. He has not been found,

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Speaker 1: His body has not been recovered. It is now over

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Speaker 1: six weeks. He has had no medication, no shoes, no shelter,

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Speaker 1: no food, no water that we know of. His mother

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Speaker 1: and stepfather are still out of town. Things have come

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Speaker 1: out that he had abuse in his background. They've made

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Speaker 1: it clear that CPS has been involved. There's all kinds

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Speaker 1: of allegations about have they both taken a polygraph? Have

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Speaker 1: they all three taken a polygraph? Are they going to

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Speaker 1: take a polygraph? It just depends on who you ask,

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Speaker 1: what information you're going to get. There's a ton of rumors,

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Speaker 1: there's a ton of speculation. The bottom line is there

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Speaker 1: has been zero sightings, zero evidence located. There's been no clothing,

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Speaker 1: there's been no flashlight. There's been no eyeglasses that belonged

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Speaker 1: to Sebastian that has been found. Nobody has come forward

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Speaker 1: that we know of. With a ring camera where law

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Speaker 1: enforcement is searching is indicative to me that they do

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Speaker 1: not believe that Sebastian Rogers is alive. You do not

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Speaker 1: drain ponds and search lakes and landfills if you think

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Speaker 1: that child is alive. Nobody thinks he walked to that

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Speaker 1: landfilled and covered himself with trash. Somebody would have placed

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Speaker 1: his dead body there. So if you watch what law

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Speaker 1: enforcement is doing, in my opinion, they are telling you

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Speaker 1: what their feeling is. They do not feel like this

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Speaker 1: is going to be a child that they recover that's

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Speaker 1: been hiding out somewhere for six weeks. Again, he hasn't

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Speaker 1: had any medication, he hasn't had any food. Where is

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Speaker 1: the food source, where's the water source? He wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: someone where he had that type of provisions that the

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Speaker 1: family wouldn't know about. The other case we've been highly

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Speaker 1: looking at are the two women that have gone missing

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. The thing that concerns me the most is

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Speaker 1: one of the women had been in a custody battle,

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Speaker 1: y'all for nine years. That's a long time to fight

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Speaker 1: with somebody over children. Children are a motive. It's scary

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Speaker 1: to think they left a small town in Kansas to

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Speaker 1: go toward a smaller town in Oklahoma. Were three miles

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Speaker 1: from their destination of picking up the children, and they

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Speaker 1: never made it. Three miles away and never made it.

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Speaker 1: Their car was found off the highway about a thousand

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Speaker 1: feet into state road l in the middle of nothing,

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Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, no witnesses. Where they were

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Speaker 1: meeting to pick the children up was an abandoned gas station,

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Speaker 1: So again who picked the time, the date, location, and route.

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Speaker 1: There's not but a handful of people that would have

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Speaker 1: known where they were going to be on what road

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Speaker 1: in the exact time. So you either have people that

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Speaker 1: knew and were once related to them, maybe five or

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Speaker 1: six people. You got the ex mother in law, a babysitter,

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Speaker 1: the ex you know, husband, the children's father, Jillian, the

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Speaker 1: lady that was with Veronica, Veronica, and maybe another person

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Speaker 1: in Veronica's family. Six people that would have known. And

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Speaker 1: then you had the possibility that this was a stranger.

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Speaker 1: Was it a truck driver, was it somebody transient? Was

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Speaker 1: you know, it's somebody that just happened upon them. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty coincidental, and that's a pretty lucky person to pick

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Speaker 1: two people where the focus is immediately going to be

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Speaker 1: put on ex family members. So the search for the

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Speaker 1: two women in Oklahoma are continuing, but so far drones

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Speaker 1: and dogs and multiple agencies have not come up with anything,

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Speaker 1: and OSBI has said there's enough evidence in the car,

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Speaker 1: that they were in danger, no doubt about it. There's

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Speaker 1: been rumors that it's blood. There's been rumors that there

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Speaker 1: was a hammer. There's all kinds of rumors, but again,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement has been very clear whatever happened in that

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Speaker 1: car was bad. This is the crime Roundup and I'm

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum.