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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about Maria

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Speaker 1: Gratrudis Brusselo, who was also known as Dounia Tulis, who

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Speaker 1: I found out about in a puzzle. If you are

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Speaker 1: really I'm not going to tell the solution to this puzzle,

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Speaker 1: but if you are planning to go crawl through old

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Speaker 1: years of the m I T Mystery Hunt to look

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Speaker 1: at puzzles and work on them, I'm gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: that puzzle for about a minute. This was a puzzle

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Speaker 1: that was delivered to us as an envelope containing a

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Speaker 1: bunch of paper dolls. Fun and uh and so I

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Speaker 1: just I cut out all the paper dolls and their clothes.

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Speaker 1: Happy as a clam, I addressed all the paper dolls.

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Speaker 1: I figured out who all the paper dolls represented. It's

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Speaker 1: been some years ago when this happened. It's I may

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Speaker 1: have had some help with the figure or not who

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Speaker 1: was who, but then became totally and irrevocably stuck on

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Speaker 1: what to do next. And if somebody had presented me

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Speaker 1: with the same puzzle. Now, three years later and I

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Speaker 1: have more experience working on these kinds of puzzles, I

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Speaker 1: think I would have I think I would have been

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Speaker 1: able to figure it out. But I could not figure

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Speaker 1: it out at that time. And all I did do

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Speaker 1: was just write the name of this person on my

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Speaker 1: short list for ideas for the episodes for an episode

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Speaker 1: to just linger on there for three years until I

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Speaker 1: realized there was a book that had come back into print,

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Speaker 1: which was very exciting. I mean, look, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what this puzzle is, but the next thing to do

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Speaker 1: is play with the paper dolls. Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of playing with paper dolls. I had a good

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Speaker 1: time with it. Scan the paper dolls in and make

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Speaker 1: it into a fabric. That's the next thing I would do.

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Speaker 1: And um, so the m my Team Mystery Hunt puzzles

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Speaker 1: are are uh you can find them online still and

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Speaker 1: so if people are really curious. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: found it by maybe googling and my Team Mystery Hunt

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Speaker 1: puzzle paper dolls. But it's possible that I had to

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Speaker 1: go back to our our old team records to find that.

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Speaker 1: Now I've forgotten how I did that step and refreshing

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Speaker 1: my memory about this puzzle. Uh. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk about her just besides the

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Speaker 1: fact that I found the idea of doing an episode

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Speaker 1: on a woman gambler to be interesting. We have had

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Speaker 1: just running theme of episodes on women in the past

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Speaker 1: who needed a way to make some money, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of those have been writers. There are just like

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Speaker 1: writing has been one of the few professions um that

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Speaker 1: has uh have have been open to women in a

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Speaker 1: lot of the past, and when at times when they're

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Speaker 1: just were not as many ways for women to make money.

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Speaker 1: And so the idea that she made her money as

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Speaker 1: a gambler and a successful businesswoman just really delighted me.

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Speaker 1: I was very excited to tell that story. While I

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Speaker 1: love the women writers love working on those episodes, this

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Speaker 1: was a nice, uh refreshing way to take a different

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Speaker 1: look at a different way to become independent and successful financially.

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Speaker 1: She's such a fun story to me, And granted, we're

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Speaker 1: getting kind of like the sketch version of her life

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Speaker 1: since there is a lot of missing documentation. For all

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Speaker 1: I know, she was a horrible person who was just

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Speaker 1: mean as a snake, but she seems delightful well and

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Speaker 1: this her whole life story played out on this backdrop

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Speaker 1: of living in New Spain and then independent Mexico and

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Speaker 1: then the United States, UH and all of that was

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Speaker 1: happening alongside westward expansion of the United States, horrible conflicts

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Speaker 1: and genocide against indigenous people UH slavery. Like she she

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Speaker 1: died before the Civil War started, which that there's just

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Speaker 1: a whole separate story involving that. But like one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that people had uh moved into neighboring Texas

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Speaker 1: was to bring their enslaved people with them. We talked

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Speaker 1: about that some in the Lucy Parsons episode. So it's

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Speaker 1: like there was a whole lot of social context that

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Speaker 1: was happening along with her life and we know nothing

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Speaker 1: about her attitudes or uh an involvement in any of

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Speaker 1: it at all. I almost feel like it would also

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Speaker 1: be fun to just do an episode of like women

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Speaker 1: Gamblers in History. That would be fun, because did you

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Speaker 1: run up against any info on Latti Dino while you

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Speaker 1: were looking at her? I don't think so. Because she

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Speaker 1: was also a gambler um in Texas and New Mexico

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Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds, it seems like she might

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Speaker 1: be an interesting dovetail. But I don't think there's a

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Speaker 1: ton of info on her either. But I bet if

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Speaker 1: we looked across history we could find a lot of

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Speaker 1: lady gamblers. It would be pretty fun. So yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: and every time I would circle around until suddenly a

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Speaker 1: couple of months ago when I was like, wait, there's

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Speaker 1: a book. How did I not know there was this book?

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Speaker 1: Every time I would circle around, I would find like

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Speaker 1: the same one page description about her being such an

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Speaker 1: important figure in uh, Santa Fe and in New Mexico

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Speaker 1: more generally during this period, UH and like fighting the

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Speaker 1: same basic information over and over. And so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until number one the book came out in paperback and

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Speaker 1: that uh you know, got it back into the search results. UM.

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Speaker 1: And also finding a lot more of the people who

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Speaker 1: had written first person accounts of her and going to

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Speaker 1: read those accounts like that became a big part of

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Speaker 1: the research also. So it took some circling around to

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Speaker 1: be able to get the episode together, and I'm glad

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Speaker 1: finally did me too. I also love those accounts, which

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Speaker 1: are often I'm trying to think of a word that

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Speaker 1: I can say on a family friendly podcast because the

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Speaker 1: first one that comes to mind is not kind um

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Speaker 1: that are just they They're so condescending and blicky, and

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Speaker 1: I always have to wonder, like, are you just mad

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Speaker 1: that someone who is different than you is successful, isn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff that I read that was

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Speaker 1: by historians and scholars from this area, like described the

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Speaker 1: attitudes of the newcomers from the Eastern US as with

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Speaker 1: words like puritanical, uh there, Like there was clearly a

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Speaker 1: culture clash going on. And one of the things that

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Speaker 1: also sort of revealed itself as I was working was

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Speaker 1: presumptions by people who had own up in what had

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Speaker 1: been British colonies, assuming that the way it worked in

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Speaker 1: British colonies was also the way that it worked in

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Speaker 1: Spanish colonies regarding things like gender, and it wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: the same. So anyway, I'm glad I didn't just delete

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Speaker 1: her off of my short list when it seemed like

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to be able to find enough information.

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Speaker 1: Me too, and I still hope we one day figure

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Speaker 1: out what her actual style was. Yeah, yeah, same same.

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Speaker 1: Now I kind of want to take a field trip

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Speaker 1: to New Mexico and just go through archives of old

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Speaker 1: photos right, maybe this is her, Maybe this is her problem.

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Speaker 1: How would we know, oh, gior Dono Bruno. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean to laugh about someone who is executed,

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Speaker 1: but he does seem again like a pill. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's hard to separate the sound of the

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Speaker 1: soundtrack from and canto. And we will talk a lot,

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Speaker 1: we will, we will. Somebody is gonna tell me that

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Speaker 1: should have been called the cast recording probably whatever. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we talked about this in a moment sort of

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Speaker 1: like in a in one of the ad break moments.

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Speaker 1: I think where it's not just that I've known I've

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Speaker 1: known people like this. I think I was people like this,

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Speaker 1: So I mean until I grew out of it to

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Speaker 1: at least an extent to some point. Right. I think

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty natural phase for a lot of bright

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Speaker 1: folks to go through when you are younger, to hit

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Speaker 1: your know at all moment where you want to criticize

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Speaker 1: everybody because clearly they're all far stupid or than you are.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, most of us grow out. And

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Speaker 1: I hope Suordano Bruno did not grow out of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I I think it would be foolish to say

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Speaker 1: I've entirely grown out of it, but it's less less

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Speaker 1: than before. I'm better than before about being a know

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Speaker 1: it all pill to everyone. Right. Oh, I still have

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Speaker 1: my moments. It's like a little hardwired. Uh. It's something

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Speaker 1: I work on with my therapist all the time. How

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Speaker 1: can I not be a jerk? Even if I only

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Speaker 1: have it in my head? I hate that that's my

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Speaker 1: first response to somebody. As a teen, I owned a

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Speaker 1: shirt that said I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I'd run away from that person. I

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Speaker 1: have seen grown adults wearing that shirt, and I make

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Speaker 1: a point to just duck away because I can't know.

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Speaker 1: And that is sort of the thing. Right He was

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Speaker 1: always a hundred percent convinced of his rightness, which is

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Speaker 1: funny because he also was like, Hey, everybody be cool

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Speaker 1: with each other, but he was not cool with anybody. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it's like his rightness and also his right to

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Speaker 1: say whatever without consequences, um, which especially depending on who

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Speaker 1: you're saying the thing too. If you're writing it in

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Speaker 1: your diary, you know whatever, But if you're literally going

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Speaker 1: up to somebody in the church and saying, hey, Jesus

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Speaker 1: was a magician who was tricking people like that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be upsetting. You can't just say that and expect no consequences, right,

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Speaker 1: which he claimed when that came up after he was

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Speaker 1: turned in My motion ego, he claimed that that was

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Speaker 1: like a theoretical he had interned. Like he was like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, I never said that. He was

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Speaker 1: that there was the thought exercise. I right, that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what he did. And that's where I was like, I've

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Speaker 1: known this person. I'm sure I encountered this person in

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Speaker 1: college classes who wanted to say really incendiary things that

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Speaker 1: they knew were incendiary, and they'd be like what me, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm just exploring ideas. You guys, we've all known that person. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: and now that person lives in Internet comments. Not necessary.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned some of his charges of heresy, but there

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Speaker 1: were things that he wrote about that like we didn't

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Speaker 1: get into because there's a I mean, he wrote a lot,

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Speaker 1: but one that like stuck out to me and I

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Speaker 1: was like, yo, yeah, the Churchill would hate that. He

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Speaker 1: made the case at one point that religion is a

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Speaker 1: means to govern the ignorant, and that philosophy is for

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Speaker 1: the men who are wise enough to govern, which is

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Speaker 1: some of the most snoots pitutes ideology for sure. So

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Speaker 1: when I thought, when you you see that quote, religion

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Speaker 1: is the opiate of the masses, which is the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century thing, I'm like Bruno was saying that in the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century catch up. I also love that the Italian

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Speaker 1: dialogues were prompted after he got in that fight at Oxford,

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Speaker 1: because it was like this case of I'll show you

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Speaker 1: who's smart, I will explain all of my stuff, and

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Speaker 1: he just kept explaining forever, and probably most people didn't

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Speaker 1: want to read it. Um. I also mentioned that we

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Speaker 1: would talk about how he knew he couldn't publish that

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Speaker 1: in Italy, but because Italy was recognized as a place

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Speaker 1: where intellectuals were doing interesting things as well, he wanted

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Speaker 1: to maintain the mystique of it being an Italian set

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Speaker 1: of books. So allegedly, and I wasn't able to verify

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Speaker 1: this in any way, which is why I didn't put

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Speaker 1: it in the episode. Allegedly, he did things when it

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Speaker 1: was finally published, like have the word Venice put in

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Speaker 1: the early pages as though it was published in Venice,

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Speaker 1: which again wasn't part of Italy at the time, but

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Speaker 1: was considered part of that like Italian intellectual circle. And

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Speaker 1: he also would ask the publisher to leave their name

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Speaker 1: off so that they couldn't be traced back to non

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Speaker 1: Italian publishing house, sneaky, So he'd be like, yes, I'm

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Speaker 1: Georgian o' bruno the nolan Um, which is very very fascinating,

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Speaker 1: and he referred to himself as the nolan which also

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Speaker 1: suggested that it was an Italian publication, very sneaky. One

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Speaker 1: of the sources that I used for this was the

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Speaker 1: Stanford Encyclopedia Philosophy, and there was an interesting thing written

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Speaker 1: in it about how he had structured some of his writing,

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Speaker 1: particularly in his book on the Cause the Principle and

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Speaker 1: the one where he basically wrote it like as an apology.

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Speaker 1: That was the second of those books to come out,

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Speaker 1: and he wrote it as an apology where say, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I didn't say that, but I could justify all those

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Speaker 1: things you didn't want me to say, and that I

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Speaker 1: say I'm apologizing for and like again doing that, like

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Speaker 1: it's a thought experiment, and that this was actually kind

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Speaker 1: of what he was doing during his trial when he

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Speaker 1: was like no, no, no, it's all theoretical, which just

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Speaker 1: was interesting. I it's such a weasily way to be

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Speaker 1: a scholar. Um dono Bruno. He was clearly very smart

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Speaker 1: and had insights into things that other people were not

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Speaker 1: even considering yet. But man, the package it came in

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Speaker 1: was yeah, yeah, when you told me this is what

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Speaker 1: you were working on, I it was like that, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure I started an episode about that at some point,

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Speaker 1: and I did, and it was way back and something

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Speaker 1: like and I think what had happened was I had

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Speaker 1: seen a tumbler post of something or something like a

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Speaker 1: Twitter thread, you know, one of those incredibly overly reductive,

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Speaker 1: exaggerated threads about listen to how amazing this person was,

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking on all of these different ways. And as I

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Speaker 1: got into it, it turned out that um number one,

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Speaker 1: that none of that had actually been accurate in terms

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Speaker 1: of this particular thing, and then number two a lot

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Speaker 1: of heresy execution to talk about. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna move this. All this stuff is going to

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Speaker 1: go in a folder I have that is called probably Not,

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Speaker 1: which is episodes I have started working on and then

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Speaker 1: abandoned and will probably never return to. See. Mine is

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Speaker 1: called maybe one day hear that too. Probably not is

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Speaker 1: like the thing I'll return to occasionally in desperation of

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Speaker 1: like is there anything in here that I can pull?

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Speaker 1: You know? Uh, but there's other stuff that's the like

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Speaker 1: the potential topics are ones that are more likely to

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Speaker 1: come around, right, Um, if any of our listeners are

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Speaker 1: interested in reading more, particularly about this kind of later

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Speaker 1: examination of how much his cosmological views were important in

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Speaker 1: his his heresy trial. Alberto Martinez, who we mentioned, uh,

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Speaker 1: the article in the Annals of Science that can be

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Speaker 1: a little tricky to get a hold of, and it

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Speaker 1: sometimes behind a paywall there. He did also write a

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Speaker 1: book that came out several years I think two years

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Speaker 1: after it called Burned Alive Bruno, Galileo and the Inquisition.

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Speaker 1: So it's obviously not only about Bruno, but it does

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Speaker 1: talk more at length about how he researched and came

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Speaker 1: up with some of those numbers that we talked about about, um,

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Speaker 1: all of the witnesses and the number of charges, and

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Speaker 1: how often the cosmological views and the innumerable world's idea

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Speaker 1: came up in his trial documents. Um. And it's a

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Speaker 1: fun read question mark. But if I am always very

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Speaker 1: fascinated by this idea of of people with new and

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Speaker 1: controversial ideas being vilified and how that works societally, especially

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Speaker 1: now in retrospect, and we're like, actually right, um uh,

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Speaker 1: those are always very interesting to me. So if you're interested. Again,

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Speaker 1: that's Alberto Martinez and his book is Burned Alive, Bruno

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Speaker 1: Galileo and the Inquisition Um, which came out in ten

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Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty I found it pretty readily available

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Speaker 1: and there's a kindle version of it for sure. So um,

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Speaker 1: that is your Dono. Bruno a pill, pretty smart, pretty

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Speaker 1: foolish in his ways he dealt with people. Um, anyway,

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Speaker 1: please don't be foolish in the ways you deal with people.

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Speaker 1: And if people are foolish in the ways they deal

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Speaker 1: with you this weekend, I apologize for them on their behalf,

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Speaker 1: because they may not have sense to apologize themselves. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We hope that your your end of the week goes well,

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Speaker 1: whether you have time off or whether you have obligations

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Speaker 1: to fulfill, and I hope that it all goes delightfully

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Speaker 1: and that no one accuses you of anything that you

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Speaker 1: have not done. If you would like to hang out

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Speaker 1: with us, some more. We'll be right back here tomorrow

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Speaker 1: with a classic, and then on Monday there will of

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Speaker 1: course be brand new episodes. Stuff you Missed in History

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Speaker 1: Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more

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