WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Pont Saint Esprit poisoning 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.440 Thinking Sideways is not supported by reusing all those A O. 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.920 L discs. Instead, it's supported by the generous donations of 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.200 our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:20.200 sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:28.520 understand you never know stories of things. We simply don't 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:33.840 know the answer too well. Here there, welcome to another 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:38.000 episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined as always by 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:43.120 Devon and Steve. Yeah. So we're gonna solve a really 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.680 groovy mystery. By the way, this is part of our 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.240 summer series. So in order to pring up some of 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.720 your precious time we started, we decided to drop a 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:54.720 series of episodes. They are kind of shorter because the 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.880 fact of the matter is there's a ton of mysteries 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.080 out there and a lot of them aren't really and 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.240 a half mysteries unfortunately. So we're gonna cover some of 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.360 those and then you have more time for barbecues and 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.800 swelling beer, blowing your fingers off with fireworks, you know, 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:14.959 all the usual stuff. So so let's get to it. 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.560 It's gonna be a bang. Actually, I know that. I 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.240 think I think the listeners are Thinking Sideways are smarter 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.679 than the average bear, and I think that probably they're 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.760 not the demographic that actually do blow their fingers off, hopefully. Well, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:29.559 let's stop talking about the demographic just in case. Yeah, 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.120 we don't want to isolate them. Yeah, this mystery is 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.119 so it's kind of old. It's over a half century old. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.880 Hit involves a little death, and it's got the usual 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.560 cia perfidy and it's so trigger warnings. You know, you 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.160 guys know what that means. It starts depending on where 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:50.160 you read about it, either August fifteen or August in 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.240 fawon sent is three France. That is, it's actually it 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.200 actually should be pronounced pont santas sprit, but franch are 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.320 famous for mispronouncing everything. Yeah, a pretty bad at pronunciation. 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:08.080 Sorry French listeners, just kidding. Palm sat Spree is a 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.280 small village in southern France uh as of the two 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:16.280 thousand twelve censes population ten thousand, sixty one, but the 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.720 town was somewhat less than half that size. One of 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.880 these strange events began to take place. And by the way, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.240 have you have you guys gone and looked at on 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.560 the street view. Yeah, it's it looks like a really beautiful, 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.280 charming little town. I mean, it's in France, so it 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.359 looks like a nice place to live. Yeah it does. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.840 So our story actually begins a little earlier in August, 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.120 because some of the citizens of Paul Sandy Spree began 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:45.480 experiencing heartburn, stomach cramps, fevere chills in some cases vomiting, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.720 and diarrhea, and most people had their heart rates slowed 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.120 dangerously down. Then some people felt that like their entire 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.200 digestive tract was on fire. So obviously there have been 0:02:55.320 --> 0:03:00.679 somebody that ingested something. I believe that would be the Yeah. 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.799 Probably there was intense cramping of hands, feet, and calves 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.000 in some cases, and the symptoms varied widely actually among 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.600 all the various people, but quite a few people were affected. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.080 A lot of people were affected with insomnia that people 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.280 were not able to sleep for several days. And within 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.360 two days of this beginning, about two fifty three people 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.160 started to go insane. And yeah, it must have been 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.080 It must have been really interesting to be living in 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.760 Paul Saisbrey in those days to be one of the 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.800 people who is not going insane, surrounded by a bunch 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:41.320 of insane people. Yeah, and wondering if you're going insane insane, Yeah, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.400 that would be it would be weird. Yeah. Yeah, there's 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.880 a lot of people still alive who remember that whole 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:49.920 that whole thing. Few were all the time, of course, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.400 because it happened. This sounds that that whole being around 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.080 a bunch of people who are going nuts and worrying. 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.560 If your next sounds like the plot of so many movies, Well, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.920 it's just like the dancing plague. Yeah, I mean we've 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.160 and you know there's that the whole laughing sickness, laughter 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.160 sickness thing that we've not done an episode on yet. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:14.880 But we haven't done that one. I mean, you know, 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.480 I think that's one of those things that's so I 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.960 just messes with your head kind of does. I hope 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.440 it doesn't happen to me. Psychosis. Yeah, there was a 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.279 recent case where it was an entire let's say it 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.960 was a junior high or a high school all came 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:34.440 down with Tourette's supposedly, and it was it was another 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.240 It was just kind of one of those weird group 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:41.159 psychosis things. Very odd. Yeah, it would be weird to 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.000 be the guy who's like, um, I'm not yelling, I'm 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.080 not screaming anybody and I don't I don't get it, 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:47.960 what's going on? Or am I and I just don't 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:52.520 know it. It's entirely possible. Where was I out? The 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.839 Time magazine covered it. They and they told how people 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.680 ran through the streets yelling that somebody was trying to 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.840 get them u people were, according to a person who 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.240 was interviewed who lived there at the time, people were 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:08.000 hitting each other and insulting one another. A small boy 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.520 supported supposedly attempted to strangle his mother, although in some 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.640 tellings of this tale was his grandmother, and they were delirious, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:18.640 people being tied to their beds. People screamed that red 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.200 flowers were coming out of their bodies. Yeah, I know 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.680 that would be I really don't want to have yeah, absolutely, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.680 uh yeah. Somebody said his head had turned to molten lead. 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.039 Another person thought his head had turned to copper. And 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.839 they were reportedly for suicide attempts and something. They were 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.640 actually some successful suicides. Also, one guy claimed he was 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.159 just According to a witness who was interviewed in he 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:45.920 was he was standing in the window of a building 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.520 like two or three stories up and was shouting, look up, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.920 a dragonfly and yeah, you know this is not going 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.640 to end well, right. Yeah. Luckily for him, he only 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.839 broke his legs. He didn't didn't kill himself, but yeah, 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.239 ouch apparently survived. Another man tried to drown himself because 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.920 he thought his body was being eaten by snakes. Another 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.800 guy claimed that he saw his heart escaping through his feet. Yea, yeah, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.920 he went to Yeah, that would be another unpleasant one. Yeah. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.799 He's a serious set of trips. Uh. Yeah, these people 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.640 are really really really tripping here. Yeah yeah, big time. Uh. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.080 There's a post been named Leon Mounier who was still 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.880 alive in when he was interviewed by the BBC. He 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.640 said he was doing his route and riding a bicycle 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.440 and all of a sudden he became nauseous and then 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.760 he started hallucinating, and he said, and I quote, I 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.919 had the sensation of shrinking and shrinking and the fire 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.400 and the serpents coiling around my arms unquote. So that 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.119 sounds pretty intense. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a Jim 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.840 Morrison song. Yeah. I was just gonna say it sounds 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.440 a bit like Alice in Wonderland. Yeah. But you know, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.919 what's what's what's remarkable about this and you know, maybe 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.359 actually some people were hallucinating. They had pleasant hallucinations that 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.280 they were like, you know, you know, like romping through 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.560 a mountain met oh, and you know, by fluffy kittens, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.320 you know, but apparently otherwise I'm hearing about are really horrible. Yeah, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.240 so I want to have the trip where I'm surrounded 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.000 by fluffy kittens. Yeah, me too, Not the not the 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.080 snakes coiling one. No, I'd rather not have that one. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.640 Back to our postman, he was taken to a hospital 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.040 and putting a straight jacket, and he was put in 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.120 a room with three teenagers who have been chained to 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.240 their beds, and apparently they spent several days in there, 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.720 and Leon the postman eventually came to a census. But 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.560 needless to say, he does not have good memories of 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.520 this whole thing. So this was the kind of thing 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.560 that people would go into and out of. And it 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.600 wasn't like the everybody was crazy at the same time. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.960 It was kind of more I get intermittent, I think, 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.640 and for different people at different times. And it lasted 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.200 longer for some people than others. Yeah, and some people 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.320 recovered fairly quickly. Some people actually didn't hallucinate. They just 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.360 experienced some of the symptoms, like you know, the feverish 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.920 kind of feeling, and you know, the heartburn and the cramps, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.160 but they never got as far as a hallucination thing. Interesting, Okay, yeah, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.360 lucky for them, But some people really went around the bend. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.600 In the end, somewhere between four and ten people died. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.040 The accounts of Berry most of them that I see 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.080 say that seven died, but I've seen but the number 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.360 might actually be as low as four. I got that 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.800 number of a report by the National Institutes of Health 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.480 that was written two weeks after the incident. So this 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:30.160 this got into the press fairly quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.520 three of the four were old and in bad health already, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.600 so and they died of cardiovascular collapse. One was a 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.240 young twenty six year old guy in good health, but 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.520 for whatever reason, uh, he thought he also died of 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:46.320 cardiovascular collapse. And that report was written beginning of September, 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:48.920 so it's possible there are a few people that died 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.160 after that. So it's really kind of hazy exactly. You mean, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.040 from lingering effects of whatever they experienced, yeah, or suicide 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.880 or whatever. So it's just I'm still not totally sure 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.600 exactly how many people died, And of course people die anyway, 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.960 so it's hard to incidentally died, but not a huge 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.760 number of people, but still it's kind of weird. And 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.400 then forty six people were committed to asylums. I'm not 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.560 sure how long for I don't I don't know that 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.680 anybody had to be permanently committed because of this, but 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.400 this was an era where people loved to commit people 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.880 and just leave them there for a while. So like, yeah, 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:29.880 it wasn't like you just oh, we're just we're going 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.600 to commit you for some psychiatric help. You'll be there 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.959 for a couple of weeks, no big deal. It's like, oh, no, 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:36.800 we're going to commit you. Will see you in six 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.400 months to a year, billy, or maybe for the rest 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.240 of your life, who knows. Yeah, it turns out it's 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.680 incredibly hard once you've convinced somebody that you are insane, 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.400 to convince them that you aren't insane. Yeah, it's raw hard. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.040 Whether Yeah, there's this story of the guy who was 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.440 trying to get out of some crime and so he 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:59.480 pled insanity and acted nuts and got himself put into 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.280 a mental facility and then once he was there, he's like, 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.280 after a while, he's like, I'm cured. You guys have 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:10.480 done a great job. We know better. Now you're you're 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:15.200 you're not actually better? Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. See how 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.480 did he ever get out? Oh gosh, I don't remember, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.040 it's been so long since I've read about the story. Well, 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.319 definitely if I were if I was a doctor and 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.360 say that the crime carried a ten year sentence, I 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.440 probably wait ten years and said, I guess you're cured 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:32.720 after all? Yeah? Oh, where was I? All? In all, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.160 about three d people were affected by this whole thing, 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.719 um and again, the intensity of the attacks and the 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.760 hallucinations varied quite a bit, but some people were permanently 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.560 damaged and never really led normal lives again. They couldn't 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.680 hold down a job. They were just kind of weird 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.120 after that. You mean by damage, do you mean they 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:55.040 were suffering some kind of psychosis, still suffering intermitting. Yeah, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.000 it's just toughering intermitting, like hallucinations and things like that. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.560 So it wasn't just like a little post trauma extress 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.320 disorder stuff that could have something to do with it, too, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:04.559 Or it could have been that they were just dead 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.400 beats who didn't want to actually have to have a job, 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.079 and they wanted to be on the form it was convenient. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.640 That's it. I don't know. I don't know that unemployment 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:13.920 was great in the fifties, but yeah, no, probably not. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:15.960 I think that there's there are people out there who 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.319 are psychologically a little a little less stable than all 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.640 of us. Have something like this happened to you, it 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:24.640 could permanely. I can see where it could primarily damage you. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.240 I don't even know that you would have to be, 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.120 you know, less stable than normal quote unquote, you know, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.160 I think this is the sort of thing, particularly everybody 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.560 breaking well, and if you saw, if you were in 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.520 really seeing kind of the most horrible stuff that was happening, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.560 people screaming about these things happening to them, or you know, 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.440 guys saying that they could fly and jumping and you know, 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.280 things like that that could probably permanently damage almost anyone. Well, 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.959 I could see it would leave you some pretty traumatic memories. Yeah. Well, 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:57.400 And and the other thing is that that area has 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:02.480 a pretty it's a high Um, they're all fairly religious, 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:08.400 it's mostly Catholics. Um, So there's there's a certain fire 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.840 and brimstone aspect that you might have apocalyptic Yeah, so 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.720 you're like, oh, I've gone to Hell and if you're 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:22.440 very devout, that would have some pretty traumatic effects on you. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.000 Not good. Yeah, of course when you come back from hell, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.560 then hey, then what have I done? What do I 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.680 gotta do? Right? I can never do? I mean like 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.480 this is one of those snowball situations. Or maybe you 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.520 are still in hell and you just don't know it. Yeah, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.520 we're all in hell. Possible that was playing something. Yeah, yeah, Actually, 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.400 of course things did get back to normal. Inquiries were made, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.839 and it turns out that everybody had been affected by 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.520 this insanity had bought bread from a local baker whose 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:54.000 name was Rock Beyond, and some people suspected of intentionally 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.920 poisoning his customers, although it doesn't look like he actually 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.880 did do it on purpose. Is this is a square 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.680 a rectangle sort of situation where everyone who was sick 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.960 had bought bread from him, but not everyone who bought 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.160 bread from him was sick? Or was it like no, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.760 literally everybody who got sick were the only people who 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.880 bought bread from him. You know, I don't know, but 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.240 I would I would suggest nobody. I don't think anybody 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.800 goes and buys bread and doesn't eat at least some 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.280 of it. Well, I just mean, you know, so if 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.240 he's the only baker in town, right, and there's five 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.200 thousand people there, and all five thousand have bought bread 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.280 from him, but only three hundred got sick, versus only 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.400 those three hundred people bought bread from him and ate 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.120 it and got sick, Devin is asking is it all 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:44.679 or some only is some of his customers? Because um, 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.679 and we'll get into this more later on. But but 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.760 there were certain products that he made that may have 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.360 been tainted, but not necessarily all of them. Okay, yeah, okay, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.160 I just feel like that's an important thing. But yeah, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.480 none of the other bakers in town had sold bread 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.800 to these people were having problems. Yeah, it doesn't look 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.560 like he did it on purpose, though. They traced his 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.040 grain that he'd used back to a supplier in another town. 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.040 I can't remember. I came across it and I should 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.520 have written it down. Now I can't find it again. 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.679 I hate that because the Internet has moved the link 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.960 on your computer to somewhere else. The Internet shift today. Yes, yeah, 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.640 that turned They decided that they had sold broke beyond 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.880 a tainted batch of grain. And I'm assuming this is 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:32.480 the old old days. I mean, I don't know if 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.720 they actually supplied him with flour or if they gave 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.600 him grain and then he grounded up himself. That's a 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.720 good question. Yeah, I don't know. In the fifties, probably 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:45.160 the flower could it could be mass production was not 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.720 as ingrained well as it is now. Yeah, especially in 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.160 some of these little old villages. And you know that, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.800 I think probably pretty old school. I guess it's just 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.240 my bias to assume when somebody says his supplier, I 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.400 think you would think that that produced. But you're right 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.400 efficient to grind, to grind it all in one place 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.640 and make it into flour, you know, and then send 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.840 the flower out of the bakers. Chicken Little did teach 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.480 me that it's true? Yeah, right, it was Chicken Little, 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.080 good old Chicken Little. I don't know if this guy 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.520 is falling. Oh no, it was the other chicken, the 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.480 one that made the bread did everything. Um, really, I 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.080 think you're hallucinating. I don't. I don't think any chicken 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:28.320 ever made any bread. But my chickens have never made bread. Well, 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.240 any long story short, it appears that our good old 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:37.040 friend Ergot was the cause of the poison. Officially officially 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.320 if as you know, if you've listened to past episodes, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.720 the only culprit that we blame more than air goot 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:46.560 is choopy, good old choopy. It's not lupus. Yeah, but 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.680 air goot if you don't know, it is a fungus 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.280 that grows on rye plants um, which is, by the way, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.880 the reason I've stopped eating rye bread. I like rye, 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:57.840 you know, I really do. I don't think I don't 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.560 think I got something that like people get in modern days. 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.480 Probably not. I think the kind of bread that you 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:04.960 would be buying, kind of rye bread you would be 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.600 buying would be pretty heavily processed and probably fungus free. 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:10.600 Oh cool, Maybe I'll start eating it again, you should. 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.160 I think the main thing is just not to let 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.800 it get too old. Yeah, well, obviously, don't let it 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.280 get moldy. Yeah, I know that. There's don't just don't 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.560 let any of your bread get moldy. That pretty much, yeah. Um. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:23.960 And the other thing to watch is peanuts. There's a 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.240 there's a mold that grows on peanuts that is really 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.600 deadly destroy your liver. So yeah, maybe that's why I 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.200 feel like crap. All Yeah, I don't eat old nuts. 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.720 That are you work too much? Anyway. The most believed 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.800 theory so far is air got poisoning. But of course 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.080 there are others, of course, of course, but the first 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.720 one is is is of course air got we're getting 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.960 in our theories. Now, So did Rothebrian get a batch 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.280 of flower that was tainted by ergo fungus? It seems possible, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:58.119 there's this though, well there are it's it's it's possible. 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.480 I mean, there could have been a batch, a batch 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.280 that was processed that by a supplier. Then we're gonna, 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.080 i guess, assume for the sake of assuming that it 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.040 was sent to him as flour bags of flower. So 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.040 imagine that you've got this whole, huge batch of grain 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.400 and there's a tiny little bit of it that's affected 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.760 with God, and so you grind it all up, dump 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.119 it into bag, and just as luck has it, it 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:21.840 all winds up in just one bag and not in 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.439 a whole bunch of bags. Well, or maybe some of 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.160 it got distributed to other bags, but in small enough 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.840 quantities that um, it didn't really afflict too many people. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.120 My two cents on that is one, again, we're making 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.960 the assumption that this is a large scale supplier. It's 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.640 possible that it's just a farm that only supplied him, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.359 right or you know, him and one other people. But 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.520 we're also assuming that it came to him with or 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.720 got in it. Is it not possible that he got 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.040 the flower or maybe the the grain and just let 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.040 it sit for a little while he was ordered in 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.159 bulk or something like that. And that's exactly what I 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.800 was thinking. Actually it could have been Actually you could 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.840 have caused it, not intentionally, but just to slightly negligent 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.399 behavior by letting it lay around. I mean we've all experienced, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.680 you know, like when something gets pushed to the back 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.320 of the fridge and you kind of forget about it 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.040 and then you discover it like long later, and oh wow, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.480 it's like scary looking. Yeah, I mean, you know, I 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.960 think one of the things, right, is it's possible also 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.639 when you go to the store and they're like meat 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.720 on sale super Slash, and you go, oh, that's a 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.720 great deal, without thinking, well, it's probably on sale because 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.119 they got to get rid of it, because it's going 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.480 to go bad and sticks on it so you can't 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.600 see the I love how they do that. Sneaky, but 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.639 I mean it's possible, right Also that you know, he 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.720 just got a batch that was a little older and 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.560 he didn't realize it was older, and then he let 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.239 it sit for a little too long and then just 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.200 made some bread with it. And that's you know, actually, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.120 I really you know, I'm really leaning towards that myself, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.080 because yeah, I think that's probably what happens. Can I 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.320 can I ask you a question, because it's been so 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.280 long since we've talked about or got that I don't remember. 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:06.200 Does cooking the bread not destroy the toxin? Well, that's 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:07.840 the part that I don't know. I was trying to 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.600 do a little research on that and I couldn't find 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.520 out one way or the other. Um And I really 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.200 honestly don't know because generally speaking, in cases of air 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.320 got poisoning, it's usually bread that's already been baked and 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.760 sitting around for too long. Right, Yeah, So it's it's 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.280 old bread. So that's why that's why I'm asking this, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.399 because the grain having it doesn't seem to be as 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.840 much of a culprit to me. If then he threw 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.560 it into an oven and cooked it. He's you know, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.719 he's cooked it off unless it's sitting it's in the grain, 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.680 and then it jumps from the grain to the loaves 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.160 of cooked bread that are sitting around that have cooled 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.560 off and therefore are a perfect host to get. Well, 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.680 I see what you're saying. That's always possible too. I guess, 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:58.080 so all our bakers don't store your freshly baked bread 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:02.720 on top of your flower supply good idea. Yeah, well 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.560 you know have you know, but you probably noticed that 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.719 a lot of bread, what they do is after they 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:14.360 baked it, before it actually like cools, they sprinkle like bread. Yeah, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.399 I mean, so that's a possibility. Is that actually the 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:19.720 air got that was in it when it got baked 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.560 was maybe killed off, but they sprinkled fresh stuff on top. Uh. 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.840 The other thing that I was seeing when I was 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.239 like reading about air got and bread is that, at 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.800 least in modern times, they see the most instances of 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.440 the ergot being developed in baked bread when it's put 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.879 directly with um, without being able to be cooled sufficiently, 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:47.359 put directly into plastic bags because the moisture in um. 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.720 So I wonder if it's possible that he was bagging 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.240 his bread before it was, you know, in plastic bags, 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.159 and none of the other bakers in town were they 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.200 were letting it air drying away. I don't think. I 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.480 don't think they were using plastic bags, and those would 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:03.080 be a evalent. I mean the paper would you know, 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.119 you got to the baker sometimes and you get that 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.320 kind of waxy paper, you know, what your paper, and 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.399 they'll they'll sometimes I've been to places where they'll just 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.440 wrap it in that and give it to you in that. 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.040 It could be a situation like that, I think, yeah, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.720 And that's because that traps the moisture from the Yeah. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.600 So that's an idea too, that he was packaging his 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.600 bread differently, which was causing it to mold. Could be 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.000 all right, Well, so that's it. I mean, the air 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:30.960 got theory is one of the prevalent theories out there. 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.119 There's some other ones that are kind of interesting. Well, 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.600