WEBVTT - Elizabeth Holmes' Sentence and Musk Summons Engineers 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.120 I'm Caroline Hyde of Bloomberg's world headquarters in New York, 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.840 and I'med Lovelow in San Francisco. This is Bloomberg Technology. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:24.560 Twitter's workforce has shrunk, just as Elon Musk planned the problem. 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.800 More employees are resigning than anticipated, and will ft X 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.760 investors ever recoup their losses? We have the CEO of 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.120 Do Not Pay, a company backed by f t X 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.040 that automates legal issues. Let's talk about, of course, where 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.479 Elon Musk has been distracted, because there have been so 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.280 many updates on this day alone about Twitter ed and 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.720 the latest being an email apparently that he sent out 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.440 to all employees just before nine am local time and 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.480 urging employees and engineers there are to fly to San 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.279 Francisco to be there in person for a meeting at 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.640 the social media platforms head quarters that very afternoon. Let's 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.920 break the all down, brad Stone in place to say 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.959 headed blue Blag's global technology coverage, Brad an extory storminary 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.160 story that continues to unfold. What did you make of 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.480 that email alone? I mean I would say it was surprise, Caroline, 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.240 but nothing in these past few weeks have surprised me. 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.080 I think the thing that jumps out is the remarkable inconsistency. 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.320 I mean, wasn't it just yesterday? And again I've lost 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.520 all track of time here. Just yesterday Ellen closed down 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.120 Twitter headquarters until the Monday after Thanksgiving. Um, and of 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.759 course let go you know, another another round of employees 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:38.240 via his ultimatum to workers. Now you know, it shouldn't 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.280 be surprising. He seems to be operating by the seat 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.200 of his pants. But closing Twitter offices and then asking employees, 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.440 the remaining engineers to come helped basically save the code 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.320 base by coming into the office. Is is quite a 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:56.040 turn about, and we're worried as uses about the stability 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.600 of this platform. But it's also got the attention of 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.200 regulators and amakers, first and foremost him in the US, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.800 I would actually say first and foremost in the EU. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:08.160 Twitter is absolutely on a collision course with European regulators. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.240 There's this thing called the Digital Services Act, which is 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:16.200 going into effect basically at the beginning of three. The 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.720 large They've been talking about it for years. The very 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.720 large tech platforms have to report their numbers and if 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.360 they qualify as as being large, then they're going to 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:29.800 basically have to you know, make some assurances around um uh, 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.920 content moderation and algorithmic transparency. And this is at a 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.239 point where none of those workers responsible for those areas 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.840 that Twitter or left. They've all left the company. And 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.160 so you hear, you know, European regulators, regulators saying that 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:48.120 they might make Twitter a test case. Brad, Hello, uh, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.440 you wrote a column the other day that Elon Musk 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.160 is trying to pull off a sort of Steve Job 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.480 sized turnaround a Twitter. Based on all the reporting that 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:00.960 I've done, that all the pull it's as and editors 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.840 that report into you have done, how's that turn around going? 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.000 Thanks that. I I drew the comparison to Jobs returning 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.560 to Apple in in the mid ninety nineties, and there 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.200 were there are certain similarities. I mean, Jobs streamline the 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.240 company back then to to a large degree. Um you 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.600 remember stories about Apple employees walking into an elevator, not 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.600 being able to describe to their boss what they did, 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.720 and getting fired. I think the difference is Elon has 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.400 been much more destructive than Jobs was back back in 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.079 the day, and Jobs was returning to a company he 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.440 knew intimately well. He was a co founder of Apple, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.680 and Elon's come into a company where he was a 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.160 power user, but maybe didn't understand or doesn't understand the 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.360 culture and the infrastructure and the product quite as well. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.360 So it's early. And look, I've always said Twitter is 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.240 the company that can't kill itself. It's just way too 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.840 addictive and effective a products. So I don't I'm not 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.200 one of those who thinks Twitter is going away, but 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.840 the last three weeks he's taken it in the wrong direction. Well, 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:01.560 I wanted to ask you about that, Caroline, and I 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.920 took part in actually a couple of Twitter spaces on Friday, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.680 one that we hosted, and then I joined Cut Wagoner's 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.880 Social Power Hour. And you know, if anything, you still 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.200 see people on the platform. One of the issues now 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.840 is that everyone has a blue tick and I look 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:18.960 on the Bloomberg terminal. Much of the new cycle is 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:23.599 about the content moderation and authenticity and bought user issue. 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.080 What is your read on what's going on that side 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.400 of the platform. Well, it's interesting because we had this 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.880 letter from Corey Booker and some other senators today urging 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.120 the FTC to go kind of take a look at 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:38.400 at Twitter. Um it's it's conduct with rolling out the 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.800 Twitter Blue verified platform, which then Elan rescinded and has 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.400 now talked about um suspending for a couple more weeks. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.320 And how much just chaos that unleashed where you had 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.640 impersonators of President Biden and other world leaders and companies 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.880 like Hili, Lily and uh, you know, the all the instability, 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:03.440 they're prominent figures be basically you know, spoofed on the platform. 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.480 And look, I mean some of this was predictable, probably 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.919 eminently so to people who have worked on Twitter a 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.040 long time. But Ellen, he's gotten as far as he's 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.800 gotten by not listening to people, by um going against 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.640 the grain and listening to his own intuition. And you know, 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.920 for a lot of his career that's worked out quite well, 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.520 and with regards to Twitter right now it hasn't. And 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.720 I think there's gonna be a lot of blowback from 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.360 the FDC, from the EU, from other regulators as he 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.360 tries to straighten us out. Interesting that this is such 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.719 a global story, as you say, the EU regulators looking in, 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.160 we understand maybe the Spanish government, the German government having 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.400 respond to questions is whether they should keep their Twitter 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.560 handles on the product to tool Brad what about the 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.760 global nature of the owners of this business. Now there 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.960 is still some questions about Sephius, or indeed about some 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.559 sort of investigation as to whether Kata Saudi Arabian money 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.200 should be helping own this business right And there was 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.279 I think another letter by Senator Mark Warner from Virginia. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.440 Basically he's he's the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.320 you know, raising concerns about those outside investors, but also 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.720 the reliance of of Elon Musk's other businesses on other countries, 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.479 for a, China for example, and the and the strength 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.720 of Tesla in China, and it raises all sorts of concerns, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.400 you know, particularly when those countries are also um, you know, 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.039 regulating Twitter when they have interest in maybe styming some 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.880 free speech on the platform. Elon has put himself in 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.200 a unique and extraordinarily difficult situation I and I do 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.760 expect different countries to kind of look at that and 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.080 interpret it differently. Brad, what are we trying to find 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.520 out next? What is the kind of big question that 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.320 hangs out of Twitter outside of the regulatory side of things. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.120 I think right now, it's a it's a it's a 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.599 culture issue, it's it's who's left, Who's going to rebuild 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.480 this thing, who's going to keep it operating? I mean 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.279 that's really the question that everybody's asking. Well, is Twitter 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.200 gonna be there when we check it in the morning, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.280 you know, that's the first question. And then I think 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.760 the second as some of these big debt payments come 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:03.240 to at the beginning of three you know what, what 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.760 does what does the business look like right now? You've 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:10.320 had so many advertisers leave the platform um Twitter blue 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.440 if it if it shows results, it's not that they're 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.960 not going to be immediate. So can he rebuild this 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.680 as a business again? Can he you know, turn it 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.760 around and maybe start to grow it again? Those are 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:22.520 the questions I will be looking at going in the 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.320 next year. Now, we just want to pivot a little bit, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.880 with you, Brad being of course the global head of technology. 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.360 We can do this because the judge in Elizabeth Holmes 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.560 trial at the moment, Judge Davila is giving a lengthy 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.840 explanation ahead of sentencing, and we have had some headlines 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.080 saying there's no question them as Holmes as bright says 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.000 the judge, and just now saying Elizabeth's homes Judges pointing 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.720 to the many misrepresentations. Everyone's waiting with bated breath as 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:50.600 to what the length of time could be here. What's 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.080 the top of mind for you? Um, well, Carol, I 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.080 mean that's a that's I guess maybe a personal question. Obviously, 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.880 I'm curious what the verdict is. I would be in 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.000 or sit and seeing maybe a little bit of equity 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.040 um reflected in the in the decision. What I mean 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.960 by that is, you know, Elizabeth Holmes was you know 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.440 she she she seemed unique back when this story was 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.880 breaking a couple of years ago. And since then we've 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.600 had Adam Newman that we work and now more recently 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.280 Samuel Bankman freed at ft X. And the size and 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.840 the scale of the fraud is almost just as draw droppering. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.119 And I know they're different situations, um uh. And and 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.120 and the health of patients was at play in the 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.320 Tharnos case. But you know, Adam Adam Newman starting a 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.240 new business and SPF while he may be arrested as 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.240 a freeman in the Bahamas, and I guess I would 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.160 I'm curious to see, you know, how the how the 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.840 legal process plays out with this very prominent female founder 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.800 Visa be some of these more explicit examples of male 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.360 founders and fraud. Brad, this is probably a difficult question 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:54.640 for me to ask you, but what is the health 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.880 of the founder broadly right now in Silicon Valley, in 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.880 the world that we cover you've written a lot about 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.439 is in Jeff Bezos is kind of taken a step back. 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.880 Elizabeth Holmes is a different example of a founder that's 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.080 moved on. Jack Dorsey is nowhere to be seen at Twitter, 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.400 for example, And there there don't seem to be as 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.360 many superstar founders right now out there in the world 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.400 that you and I operate it well. I would say 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.720 the mystique of the founder is cracked for for sure, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.600 all the examples that you've cited, but it's it's I 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.000 think it's so strong and it's so foundational to the 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.800 Silicon Valley myth that I think we'd be making a 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:36.199 mistake if we said that the next iconoclastic genius founder 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.320 who comes along isn't you know, isn't going to have 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.760 as much success with sand Hill Road and mentor Capital. 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.320 I I think that, um, you know, we have all 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.680 these examples, but you play them against the examples of 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.760 everything Bezos created at Amazon and Steve Jobs and and 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.320 and the mystique is there might be cracked. But I 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.000 don't think the founder, visionary, genie, a CEO, that that 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.040 archetype is going anywhere in Silicon Valley. I think it's trunditional. Okay. 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.520 Elizabeth Holmes has been sentenced to a hundred and thirty 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.400 five months imprisonment four fraud. A hundred and thirty five 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.959 months is just over eleven years. The defense team had 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:21.080 asked for eighteen months or at home imprisonment or you know, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:26.800 being confined to home instead of being imprisoned. But this, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.200 and there's the redhead crossing. The Bloomberg terminal is official. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.839 Now Elizabeth Holmes sentenced to one hundred and thirty five 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.920 months for the fraud relating to Farnos, which is just 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:43.680 little more than eleven years. Brad back to you, a 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.320 little over eleven years. What sort of signal does that sound? 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.480 It sounds horrendous to me to feel that I would 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.840 be incarcerated with that length of time. Yeah, no, eleven 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:58.160 years for for now. A disgrace from a CEO with 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.360 with one key and another on the way. It's it's 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.560 a tragedy. Like across the board, and hopefully it does 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.160 send a signal to other CEOs and other venture capitals. 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.600 But you know, Caroline, we're coming up, We're coming off 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.640 this major scandal in the crypto world, and you know, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.440 the lessons are there for the investors who who who 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.679 backed SPF and f t X and and they were ignored. 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.080 So I'd love to say that Silicon Valley has learned 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.200 its lesson, but I think the history of financial scandal 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.640 in this country and in the world is that there 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.680 are always new mistakes to be made. Despite the hefty 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.559 sentence that's been leveled here today. All right, Bloomberg's Bradstone, 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:37.200 thank you. We're going to take a quick break and 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.480 be right back with more details from the Elizabeth Hoimes sentencing. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.280 Coming up, will also speak with the new Grinder CEO 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.320 George Harrison about everything from his first couple of months 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.680 in the top role to his big ideas for the 0:11:48.720 --> 0:12:02.920 popular dating app. This is Bloomberg. The sentencing has been 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.440 read on Elizabeth Holmes, the founder, of course of Sarons, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.200 being sent us to a hundred thirty five months for 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.199 the fraud now, of course, equates to a little more 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.960 than eleven years in prison, and we understand that then 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.480 the judge won't impose a fine postpons restitution order and 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:25.200 also is getting three years supervised release after prison. All 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.440 of this with the expectation we understand that it's likely 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.040 to be appealed. But for now, Elizabeth Holmes being sentenced 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.520 to an enormous more than eleven years prison for fraud, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.520 but noting that this is on the lower end of 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.520 the maximum amount, and we understand Elizabeth Holmes is hugging 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.760 her parents in court after the sentence was imposed. We'll 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.839 return to that in a moment, but now let's get 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.079 you some more breaking news of the day, because Friday 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.480 was a very big day for Grinder, the dating app 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:55.480 specializing in LGBTQ plus communities, saw it shares absolutely surge 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.880 in its trading debuted. Yeah. I've seen a few spack 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.200 list things in my time at this company, Karay, this 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:04.160 is impressive. Up more than two first day of trading 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.520 after the d SPAC from Thursday's close of the pre 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.720 spack trading. Two charts that I want to look at 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.640 really quickly to give some context here, first look at 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.000 the d spack index on the bloombew terminal. This is 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.200 a basket of twenty five companies that have gone before Grinder, 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.959 and look at that two year performance. I used two 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.600 year because two years ago there was euphoria around companies 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.920 going public. Vice back. Look at how some of those 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.880 companies have fared since then, not so well. The second thing, 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.360 the number of special purpose acquisition companies that are actually 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.360 I p O in other words, the vehicles themselves that 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.760 seek to go public and then merge with the company 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.120 taking it public via the de SPAC process has completely 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.280 drowned up. That's where are aunt? So why has Grinder different? Well, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.280 asks the man behind it ground As CEO, George Arison. 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.600 Of course, extraordinary day of celebration for you and one 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.480 where we saw it the nice see the listing and 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.760 of course performances and a real celebration for what has 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.920 been a moment to see if for LGBTQ people as well. 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.800 I'm interested in your perspective on well, now is a 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.760 public company? How it makes you different from a private company? Um? Well, 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.360 public companies you have to have really good controls, which 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.040 we're really excited to have. Secondly, we get to report 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.240 numbers regularly and I think it'll be awesome to tell 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.600 the story of how well our business is doing, but 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.120 also the story of what we do for the community 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.120 that we serve, because Grinder is not just a business, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.800 it's also a mission, and our employees are really tighteder 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:29.600 that mission are used as are really tighter the mission. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:31.880 And then thirdly, you know, Grinder moving forward is going 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.600 to have a board of nine pybole governing the company, 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.480 six of which are LGBTQ plus community members, which is 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.320 completely incredible, Right, That's never happened in the history of 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.160 public companies, and that just makes me so proud that 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.240 that's the company that we're going to be. George, that 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.680 the overwhelming number of investors voted in favor of the 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:55.240 reverse merger, not sure how surprising that is. What is 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.880 it that you think we're so convincing? Is it actually 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.680 Grinder and the opportunity for the business, the addressable market, 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.720 or are you just another stack. Grinder is a really 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.840 unique company because we are both growing really fast, right, 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.040 thirty plus percent year over year growth, while also we 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.280 are profitable and our EBADA number is extremely strong and 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.360 very very positive, and we expect that to continue in 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.880 the years to come. Because our opportunity for growth is 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.120 so strong ahead of us, and I think that makes 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.000 us really unique. Right. You showed this back index, Well, 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:29.920 you could put up a similar index for high growth 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:31.440 money losing companies and they're going to be in a 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.520 similar situation. Right, Those correlate. I think in general, tech 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.200 world has had a lot of companies not do well 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.040 because they're losing money. Grinder is very different because it's 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.840 making money while growing at a really fast clip. We're 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.800 very early in our monization journey. You know. We've only 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.080 started to really charge for our services in the last 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:51.680 three or four years, and there's still a lot of 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.960 monization that we can achieve by having people pay for 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:56.920 service that they really want, right, So we're building those 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.160 products for them and then they're monetizing those and that it's, 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.200 as I think, in a really pole position to grow 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.680 a revenue really nicely while do it in a in 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.160 a positive uneconomic way. I mean, Grands, I mean, it's 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.320 a pretty amazing thing to say we have nearly two 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.240 hunter million in revenue as a as a guidance point 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.160 for this year, and we're doing that with two hundred 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.560 people working at render, right, So that I think is 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.000 a is a pretty awesome story I talk to us about. 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.640 You speak very eloquently about your stakeholders in terms of 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:27.200 people who work for you and the people that you 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.320 serve through the app. Now your shareholders. The volatility is 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.640 there because in large part there's a very small float, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:35.520 and I'm interested as to whether you want to build that. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.240 You want to have more liquidity, want to have more 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.320 shares outstanding so that we don't get these huge sudden 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.400 surges in the share price. Yeah, I mean, obviously we 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.560 want to have a float um that's much bigger, and 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:46.400 we want to spend time with investors, telling them our 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.080 story and having them invest. We've done somewhere that already. 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.240 We've been out there talking to large investors that invest 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.200 in companies like us, and we'll continue to do that. 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.240 I'm fortunate to have done this once before I've taken 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.400 another company public, so that's something I enjoyed going. We 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.320 have a very strong CFO who is very good at 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:03.760 this as well, and so we'll be out there telling 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.440 our story and hopefully, you know, big inst issue investors 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.240 who want to hold a stock for a long time 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.320 and will come in and become our shareholders over the 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.040 months to come. George, I'm really interesting about the concept 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.280 of the app and how you make money in other ways. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.639 You know, if you look, for example, a Bumble and 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.239 how they moved away from just simply dating, what are 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.040 the opportunities for you to branch out monetize new functionality. 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:28.920 So obviously, the majority of what we do today is 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.120 around dating and relationships. People come to Grinder to either 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.879 have casual dating for long term relationships or friendships, and 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.919 that we know that from all the data that we collect. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:39.840 But we also know that people use Grinder in a 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.640 lot of other ways and travels a very logical example, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.800 people like to take me right, I could have been 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.080 Grinder traveling from San Francisco to New York, longing in 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.399 talking to people about where I should stay, what I 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.639 should do, what restaurants I should go to, what activities 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.920 are happening. We don't monetize that at all. Now we 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:57.600 know people use a Grinder that way. It's like a 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.040 very organic thing that happens in the app, but we 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.600 don't actually monetize that that feature or that that set 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.439 of features. Imagine a world where inside Grinder we there 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.320 and actually give you a map of the place you're 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.080 going to and say hey, here are five hotels that 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.520 I users really like. Here the three restaurants that people 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.040 really want to go to and that it can be monetized. 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.119 So that's one of just many kind of product extensions 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.320 that we are envisioning. Now we're going to launch these three. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.760 These are all more long term because there's still so 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:24.840 much low hanging food in our core product that we 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.280 can monetize. But over the long term we see a 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.960 ton of opportunity to kind of grow and really be 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.679 a brand for the entire community. Right we have this 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.960 brand recognition among our community members which is frankly incredible 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.639 and priceless. Well, we need to take advantage of that 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.639 and really serve them in many other careers besides just 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.720 the coordinating features that Grinder has to Okay, grind to 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.920 see you, George Harrison, thank you. We got to run 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.879 welcome backt toly Bad Technology. I'm coindline Horde in New 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.159 York along with the d Love in San Francisco. And 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.720 we've got to talk about Twitter again because it's closed 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.439 its officers until Monday after Elonmask gave staff an ultimatum 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.640 to either commit to working long hours at high intensity 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.920 or to leave. Sources say many more workers decided well 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.200 to leave than he expected, potentially putting Twitter's operations at risk. 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.520 A memo scene by Bloomberg also urges staff to refrain 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.920 from discussing confidential information on social media or elsewhere. Broomberg's 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.159 intelligence mandate, Singh is with us following every nook and 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.160 cranny of this story, Mandy, But ultimately, how worried are 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.600 you about the product? How worried are you about the 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.840 platform and its ability to continue being as rich as 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.840 it is for people when there's no one really working there. Look, 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.680 you make a great point that to keep a service 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.359 like Twitter up, there is a lot that go behind 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.080 the scenes in terms of infrastructure and system software. And 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.560 Twitter isn't even deployed on a public cloud that you know, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.760 Amazon or Microsoft is taking care of the infrastructure. Twitter 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.720 is still a lot of the services deployed on its 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.680 own private data centers. So you need those type of resources. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.040 And with this kind of leoffsman he has already you know, 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.399 fired servant the staff. You don't know which are the 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:16.919 critical people. Maybe he has a good sense, but we 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.920 don't know it yet, and he's too focused on costs. 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.560 So I think a combination of you know, what he 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.919 wants to do in terms of the blue checks and 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.840 just get the costs under control. To me, it's just 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.479 too scary right now and too risky in terms of 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.200 how he's going about I love that carry the data 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.960 driven Mandy saying saying Musk is too focused on costs. 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.720 I love it. But Mandy, my question for you, who 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:48.399 or what is Twitter's competitor? Well, so that's the saving 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.480 race that they have that there isn't you know, a 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.960 Twitter like service out there, and Google probably wish they 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.840 had something similar to Twitter or you know, even better 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.520 for that matter. Some people may argue, you know, the 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.119 creators may go to Instagram. It's just not saying Twitter 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.720 is the service for live events. We have a World 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.439 Cup coming up, and look, people still will engage with Twitter. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.520 But the real risk here is the service may go 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.560 down because we like there is no one doing the 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.600