1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frey. This is a return of 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: six Impossible Episodes. If you're new to the show Six 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: Impossible Episodes, it's kind of a series. We'll tackle six 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: different topics that, for whatever reason, usually can't fill out 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: an episode on their own. The first time that we 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: did one on Mother Goose Rhymes, it was because of 9 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: a listener request for an episode about the Muffin Man. 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: This was a listener request from a child that had 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: been passed on via an adult. That one was a 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: lot of fun, and so the next six Impossible Episodes 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: we did was another one. Some time has passed now 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: since those two, and I thought maybe we would go 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: for a third. We have to start, though, with a 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: caveat that Folks who have heard the other earlier Mother 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: Goose episodes will probably find familiar. A lot of these 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: poems and songs were first published hundreds of years ago, 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and some of them might have existed for quite some 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: time before appearing in a book or some kind of 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: other print material. But most of the explanations for their 22 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: purported origins are much much newer, like in a lot 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: of cases, hundreds of years newer, and usually these wind 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: up seeming more like somebody sort of trying to come 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: up with an explanation that matches up with what's written 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: in a poem, rather than someone actually finding evidence that 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: a poem referenced a specific person or historical event. They're 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: fun anyway, though, so we're doing it. And first up, 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: men couldn't put Humpty together again. The first known publication 32 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: of this rhyme was by Samuel Arnold in seventeen ninety 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: seven in a book called Juvenile Amusements. Arnold was a 34 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: composer and an organist who lived and worked in London. 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: His version was a little different, though it started out 36 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: the same, but then ended four score men and four 37 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: score more could not make Humpty Dumpty where he was before. 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Some people interpret this as a riddle with the answer 39 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: being an egg. According to folkloris Iona and Peter Opie, 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: who specialized in the study of childhood culture and published 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: so much research on it in the last half of 42 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. There are multiple different versions of the 43 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: same poem slash riddle in other European countries, like Trilla 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: Trola in parts of Germany or Bullabula in France. All 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: of these similar poems seem like they are connected, but 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: it's really not clear which of them might have been 47 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: the first one ever to be composed. Also, Humpty Dumpty 48 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: is often depicted is sort of an anthropomorphized egg, including 49 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, which came out in 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five, but the term humpty dumpty predate Samuel 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: Arnold's publication of this nursery rhyme by roughly one hundred years. 52 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, It's been used since 53 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: at least sixteen ninety eight to mean a drink quote 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: made with ale boiled with brandy, and in seventeen eighty 55 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: five the word humpty dumpty was used in writing with 56 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: a different meaning, that being a person who was short 57 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: and squat and maybe kind of frumpy, especially if they 58 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: keep their shoulders hunched. 59 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: I feel attacked. 60 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: A character named Humpty Dumpty who had these physical traits 61 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: also appeared in print before the Humpty Dumpty poem in 62 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: the Lilliputian Writing School that came out sometime between seventeen 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: fifty four and seventeen sixty four. So some people speculate 64 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: that this poem is a reference to King Richard third 65 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: of England, that the humpty is referencing the way his 66 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: body looked because he had scoliosis, and the wall that 67 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: he was on was a horse named Wall, and the 68 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: falling down part is referencing his death at the Battle 69 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: of bosworth Field. 70 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: However, the only. 71 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: References to Richard the third having a horse named Wall 72 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: that I could find, they all seem to be explanations 73 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: of what Humpty Dumpty is about. I don't know if 74 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: anybody else said at any point anywhere that he had 75 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: a horse named Wall. The other thing that people point 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: to with this a lot is that this could be 77 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: Richard third, is that all the King's horses and all 78 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the King's men is maybe a reference to the my 79 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: Kingdom for a horse line from Shakespeare's Richard the Third. 80 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: There is also a completely different explanation that Humpty Dumpty 81 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: was a large cannon that was used during the English 82 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: Civil Wars. In this explanation, the Royalist town of Colchester 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: was under siege by the Parliamentarians and they had this 84 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: big cannon that they had nicknamed Humpty. 85 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: Dumpty up on a wall. 86 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: Either the cannon recoiled when it was fired and fell 87 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: off the wall, or the Parliamentarians shattered the wall and 88 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: caused the cannon to fall down, but either way the 89 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: Royalist forces could not repair it. But according to the opies, 90 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: the source for this story is a series of fictitious 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: nursery rhyme interpretations that were printed in Oxford Magazine in 92 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six, which people misinterpreted as being real. Yeah, 93 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: I've heard this cannon explanation a lot too, and I 94 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: did try to go and track down this original article 95 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: to see exactly what it said, and I could not 96 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: find a way to get at it. So I wish 97 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: I could did not sussess but do that. So next 98 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: we go on to our next poem, which is sing 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: a song a sixpence a pocket full of rye four 100 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. When the pie 101 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: was opened, the birds began to sing. Wasn't that a 102 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: dainty dish? To set before the king. There's also a 103 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: second verse that I think people don't maybe say as much, 104 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: which is the King was in the counting house counting 105 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: out his money. The queen was in the parlor eating 106 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: bread and honey. The maid was in the garden hanging 107 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: out the clothes. There came a little blackbird and snapped 108 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: off her nose. So we're gonna look at this one 109 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: in pieces first. There are multiple references combining sixpence with 110 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: singing going back to the seventeenth century, including a line 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: from Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, which was first performed in sixteen 112 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: oh two. That's Sir Toby Belch saying, come on, there 113 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: is sixpence for you. Let's have a song. In the 114 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: sixteen fourteen play Bonduka by Francis Beaumont and John Fletcher, 115 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: a character calls out, whoa, here's a stir Now sing 116 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: a song of sixpence. So that bit's been around for 117 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: a while next. Allegedly at least part of this was 118 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: written by English literary critic and Shakespeare commentator George Stevens, 119 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: who supposedly wrote it to make fun of Henry James Pie. 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: Pie was named British poet Laureate in seventeen ninety, and 121 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: unlike most people who are named a country's poet laureate, 122 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: Pie was not well regarded for his verse. He was 123 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: probably named poet laureate as a reward for supporting or 124 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: doing some kind of favors for somebody in Parliament. Some 125 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: sources point to William Pitt the Younger, who eventually became 126 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: Prime Minister. A lot of Pie's contemporaries made fun of 127 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: him and made fun of his poetry, especially his poems 128 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: commemorating the King's birthday, which apparently were particularly horrible, at 129 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: least based on what I read second hand, having also 130 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: not found the exact poems they're talking about again. Allegedly, 131 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: one of these birthday poems was so bad that Stevens 132 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: responded with and when the pie was opened, the birds 133 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: began to sing? Was not that a dainty dish to 134 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: set before the King? Pie in this instance was spelled Pye, 135 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: like Pie's name, and Stevens was supposedly inspired by a 136 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: line Pie had written that referenced a feathered choir. This 137 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: story shows up in a lot of sources, especially in 138 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: works that were printed in the nineteenth and early twentieth century, 139 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: but it's not clear where it came from, also drawing 140 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: some questions around this. The first written appearance of sing 141 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: a song a sixpence is in Tommy Thumb's Pretty Songbook, 142 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: published in seventeen forty four, forty six years before Pie 143 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: was named Poet laureate. In that version, it is a 144 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: bag of rye rather than a pocket. 145 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: Naughty boys are who. 146 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: Was baked into the pie rather than blackbirds. It is 147 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: definitely possible that Stevens kind of recited a bit of 148 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: a nursery rhyme that he already knew to make fun 149 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: of Henry James Pie. Though there are several other proposed 150 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: explanations for this rhyme, but none of them really seem 151 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: to have any backup, Like maybe this is a reference 152 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: to King Henry the Eighth and the dissolution of the 153 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: monasteries and those four and twenty blackbirds are really choirs 154 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: of monks singing and baking pies to try to earn 155 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: the king's favor. Or maybe in those later lines of 156 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: the second verse, the queen is supposed to be Henry's 157 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: first wife, Catherine of Aragon, who he divorced, and the 158 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: maid is his second wife and Boleyn who was beheaded, 159 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: and that the beheading is what's being referenced when the 160 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: blackbird snaps off the maid's nose. Or maybe the blackbirds 161 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: are a reference to twenty four hours in a day, 162 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: and the King and Queen are the sun and the moon. Honestly, 163 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: it all seems kind of random. I feel like this 164 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: is a literature class where people are like any interpretation 165 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: is valid as. 166 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: Long as you can back it up with the text. 167 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, the website snopes dot com published 168 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: an explanation involving the pirate Blackbeard using this song to 169 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: recruit new pirates for his crew. The sixpence and the 170 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: rye were the money and whiskey that these pirates would 171 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: be paid. The blackbirds in the pie alluded to how 172 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: pirates would lure the crews of other ships into a 173 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,479 Speaker 1: false sense of security by pretending to be in distress. 174 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: This explanation went on from there, explaining each line in 175 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: the poem as part of a code for recruiting pirates. 176 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: But this was from a section of the website called 177 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: the Repository of Lost Legends or troll. They were supposed 178 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: to be so obviously made up that no one would 179 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: mistake them for real urban legends. In other words, snopes 180 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: dot Com was trolling people, But really some of the 181 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,239 Speaker 1: articles in this section of the website are more obviously 182 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: made up than others. Like an article about how mister 183 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: Ed was really a zebra not a horse, accompanied by 184 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: pictures of mister Ed, who was clearly a horse, is 185 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: a lot easier to spot as fake than a made 186 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: up interpretation of a nursery rhyme that seems pretty similar 187 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: to the many, many other widely repeated nursery rhyme interpretations 188 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: floating around in the world that are at best barely 189 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: connected to reality. Some people did wind up falling for 190 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: this Blackbeard fantasy, including the TLCTV show Mostly True Stories 191 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: Urban Legends Revealed, which aired in two thousand and three. Yeah, 192 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: apparently later on they didn't exactly error retraction, but they 193 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: in a different episode they said the opposite. One possible 194 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: inspiration for this poem is something we have talked about 195 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: on the show before. Last year, we did an episode 196 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: on the history of pie, and in it we talked 197 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: about a fifteen ninety eight Italian cookbook titled Eppelario, which 198 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: included a recipe for making a pie and then filling 199 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: it with live birds, which would then fly out when 200 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: the pie was cut open. The Opies actually referenced this recipe, 201 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: as well as later cookbooks that referred back to it. 202 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: They reference that in their Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes. 203 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: We are going to have more mother Goose fun, but 204 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: first we're gonna pause for a sponsor break. Our next 205 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: rhyme is newer than some of the others that we 206 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: have been talking about over this kind of mini series. 207 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: Here we go around the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, 208 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: the mulberry bush. Here we go around the mulberry bush 209 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: on a cold and frosty morning. This is a song. 210 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: I won't sing it because I'm bad at that. There 211 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: are lots of additional verses, including this is the way 212 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: we wash our face, this is the way we colmb 213 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: our hair, this is the way we brush our teeth, 214 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: and this is the way we put on clothes. This 215 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: nineteenth century rhyme is usually sung to an older tune, 216 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: one that was first documented in the middle of the 217 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: eighteenth century as Nancy Dawson. This melody is also used 218 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: for another song with some similarities to here we Go 219 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: round the mulberry Bush, which is called nuts in May. 220 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: That one goes here we come gathering nuts in May, 221 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: Nuts in May, nuts in May. Here we come gathering 222 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: nuts in May on a cold and frosty morning. The 223 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: Opie speculated that the popularity of here we Go round 224 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: the Mulberry Bush is at least partially due to nuts 225 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: in May already being a well known song when Mulberry 226 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: Bush was written. In their book The Singing Game, Peter 227 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: and Aana Opie mention the use of this song in 228 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: Glasgow infant schools in eighteen thirty four as a way 229 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: to teach pupils about hygiene and but with the verses 230 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: ending to come to school in the morning rather than 231 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: on a cold and frosty morning. And aside from the 232 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: first verse about the mulberry bush, this really does seem 233 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: like the kind of didactic song that somebody might make 234 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: up to teach young children about things like cleanliness. It 235 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: really has some parallels to the kinds of songs that 236 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: we talked about in our episode on the history of 237 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: Happy Birthday to You, which we ran as a Saturday 238 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: classic not long ago. Many nineteenth century versions of this 239 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: song start with a verse about going around some kind 240 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: of plants, but they aren't consistent about what kind of 241 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: plant they reference. The opies point out that Thomas Hardy, 242 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: born in Dorset, England, knew this song as being around 243 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: a gooseberry bush, while T. S. Eliot, who grew up 244 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: in Saint Louis, Missouri, knew it as a prickly pair. 245 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: In James Orchard Halliwell Phillips's popular Nursery Rhymes and Nursery Tales, 246 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: a sequel to the Nursery Rhymes of England, which was 247 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: published in eighteen forty. 248 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,119 Speaker 2: Nine, it is bramble bush. 249 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: It's not clear exactly where the mulberry bush came from 250 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: or how that one seems to have become the most common, 251 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: almost standard verse. Mulberries grow on trees and not on bushes, 252 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: And of course trees and bushes these are both constructed 253 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: categories that we have made up to understand the world. 254 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: But in general trees have a central trunk, while shrubs 255 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: tend to be smaller and have multiple woody stems. In 256 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Robert Stephen Duncan, who had been governor 257 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: of hm Wakefield Prison, self published a book called Here 258 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: we Go Round the Mulberry Bush, House of Correction, fifteen 259 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: ninety five HMP Wakefield, nineteen ninety five. And in this 260 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: book he claimed that this nursery rhyme was a reference 261 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: to women prisoners and their children walking around a mulberry 262 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: tree in the prison's exercise yard in the nineteenth century, 263 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: and there was a mulberry tree there. It was removed 264 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen after dying due to a beatle infestation 265 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: and other issues two years before. A replacement has since 266 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: been propagated from cuttings from the original tree. It's not clear, though, 267 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: what evidence there is to connect this mulberry tree to 268 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: the children's song, other than that both the tree and. 269 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: The song exist. 270 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: Since this is a self published book that came out 271 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four in the UK, we were not 272 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: able to get a copy of it to see what 273 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: specifically Duncan said about it, or what kind of documentation 274 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: there might be to support this idea. But sometimes people 275 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: point out the incongruity of a children's song possibly being 276 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: connected not only to a prison, but to one that 277 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: has now more recently become a high security prison in 278 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: more recent years than this song was originally written Wakefield 279 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: Prison has been nicknamed the Monster Mansion because of the 280 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: notoriety of some of the people incarcerated there and the 281 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: sometimes gruesome and horrifying crimes that some of them have 282 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: been convicted of committing. But there are still other proposed explanations. 283 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: One is that it's a veiled reference to early efforts 284 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: to start a silk industry in Britain, because silkworms eat 285 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: mulberry leaves, and those first efforts didn't go so well, 286 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: which is why the morning was cold and frosty. There's 287 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: also a bit about going around the mulberry bush in 288 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: some versions of Pop Goes the Weasel, but that seems 289 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: to be a very recent addition to a song that 290 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: goes all the way back to the sixteen hundreds. Moving 291 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: on to our next rhyme, Hickory dickory dock The mouse 292 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: ran up the clock, the clock struck one, the mouse 293 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: ran down Hickory dickery doc. This is yet another rhyme 294 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: that appears in the seventeen forty four Tommy Thumb's Pretty 295 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: Song Book, but with slightly different spellings. Hickory is hick 296 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: e r e and Dickery is d ic k e er. 297 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: Some versions of this rhyme say down he run instead 298 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: of the mouse ran down, so that run rhymes with one. 299 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Others say down he ran, which feels more grammatically correct, 300 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: but doesn't rhyme as well. Grammar another thing we made 301 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: up to make sense of the world. 302 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: Sure. 303 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: The opies described this as a counting song with hickory 304 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: dickory doc possibly referencing the counting systems used by shepherds 305 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: in parts of northern England. These systems grew out of 306 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: Celtic languages like Kumbrick and were widely used in some 307 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: areas up through the nineteenth century in parts of Derbyshire, 308 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: Cumberland and Westmoreland. Eight nine and ten were Hovra, Doverra 309 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: and dick. Some of the purported explanations for this one 310 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: seem like just another instance of two things existing without 311 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: necessarily being connected to one another, beyond the similarities that 312 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 1: people spotted between them later on. One is the idea that 313 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: this poem is a reference to Richard Cromwell, who was 314 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland 315 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: for less than a year after the death of his 316 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: father Oliver Cromwell in sixteen fifty eight. Richard Cromwell wasn't 317 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: effective in this role at all. People described him as 318 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: mousey and timid, and he was given nicknames like tumble 319 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: Down Dick. Another thing that definitely exists is the astronomical 320 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: clock at Exeter Cathedral in Devon, and this clock is fascinating. 321 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: It probably dates back to the fifteenth century, but its 322 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: inner workings are a replacement installed at the end of 323 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. This clock shows the hour of the day, 324 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: the day of the lunar month, and the phase of 325 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: the moon, and the door that allows access to the 326 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: interior workings of the clock has a little hole for 327 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: a cat cut through the bottom. This was allegedly made 328 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: specifically because mice we're running up and down the clock's 329 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: mechanism and affecting its accuracy, so that door is so 330 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: cats could get in there and stop that problem. 331 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: This has led to. 332 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: Some people suggesting that this specific clock is the inspiration 333 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: for Hickory Dickory doc As a cat person, I know 334 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: Tracy has some questions like, couldn't a cat do even 335 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: more damage to the mechanisms if they pounce on a 336 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: mouse that's running around in there? Or perhaps just batting machinery. 337 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean, I can see what people 338 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: are saying, but it also seems like a cat could 339 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: cause definite problems. Yeah, I mean, you have to have 340 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: a lot of trust that your cat is a pretty 341 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: focused mouser with strategy that does not involve destroying other things. 342 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: Which seems like a big ask. 343 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: Yes. So Catherine Els Thomas takes a totally different approach 344 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: to this in her book The Real Personages of Mother Goose. 345 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: Thomas's work has been a major source in a lot 346 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: of the interpretations that we have talked about in earlier 347 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: installments of this series. She refers back to an essay 348 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: on the archaeology of Popular English phrases and nursery rhymes 349 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: by botanist John Bellenden Kerr, which came out in eighteen 350 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: thirty four. He argued that a lot of English language 351 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: rhymes that seemed nonsensical were really written in Anglo Saxon, 352 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: which probably is what we would call Old English, and 353 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: that Anglo Saxon was, according to him, the same as 354 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: Low Saxon. So Kerr claimed that in this Low Saxon 355 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: Dowkin meant to give it once, to give without delay. 356 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: Maw spelled maegh meant stomach, clock spelled klocke meant cloak 357 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: or gown, Ran meant lank or wanting food, and strak 358 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: meant immediately. So this was about someone in a cloak 359 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: or a gown demanding to be given food immediately. In 360 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: other words, this was a criticism of Catholic clergy demanding 361 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: provisions from peasants, while also lampooning the peasants who did 362 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: as the clergy asked. A lot of Kurz explanations of 363 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: the purported Low Saxon origins of idioms and nursery rhymes 364 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: kind of boiled down to anti Catholicism in some way. 365 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: This seems like the longest walk interpretation to me. Yeah, 366 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: I tried to figure out there are languages and dialects 367 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: today that are sometimes called Lo Saxon, and I was 368 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: like trying to figure out is this the same as 369 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: what or is this something different? Like I really was 370 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: not able to confirm whether any of these words he 371 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: was talking about aligned with reality at all, right, and 372 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: just the whole idea that these seemingly nonsensical English language 373 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: nursery rhymes are really totally different words in a different 374 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: language I'd found that both fascinating and baffling. So we're 375 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: just going to take a quick sponsor break and ruminate 376 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: on that for a little bit and then get to 377 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: our last two rhymes. Okay, Georgie Porgie putting him pie 378 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: kiss the girls and made them cry when the boys 379 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: came out to play, Georgie Porgy ran away. This rhyme 380 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: was first written down in the eighteen forties, although initially 381 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: it was not that the boys came out to play 382 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: and Georgie Porgie ran away. Georgie Porgie ran away when 383 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: the girls came out to play. In the eighteen fifties, 384 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: James Orchard Halliwell Phillips, who we referenced earlier, published a 385 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: variant on this, which was roly Poly Pumpkin Pie kissed 386 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: the girls and made them cry. When the girls began 387 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: to cry, roly Poly runs away. The Georgie in this 388 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: poem is often interpreted as George Villiers, the first Duke 389 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: of Buckingham, favorite of King James the First, and as 390 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: referencing his affairs with the King and also with women 391 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: at the court. So after breaking some lady's hert, George 392 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: would run back to the King for his protection. Another 393 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: interpretation is that Georgie is King George the Fourth before 394 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: his ascension to the throne while he was serving as 395 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: Prince Regent. In this interpretation, the poem is making fun 396 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: of him for his weight and is also referencing his 397 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: relationships with two different women. One is Maria Ann fitz Herbert, 398 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: who he wanted to marry so badly even though she 399 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: was Catholic, but under the Active Settlement of seventeen oh one, 400 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: only Protestants could take the throne and anyone who married 401 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: a Catholic was barred from taking the throne as well. 402 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: That did not stop George, though he married Maria Ann 403 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: fitz Herbert in secret in seventeen eighty five. That marriage 404 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: was not a legal one, though, and George got married 405 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: again in seventeen ninety five as part of an agreement 406 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: with Parliament to pay off his debts. This wife was 407 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: Catherine of Brunswick, who he absolutely hated, to the point 408 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: that he did not allow her to attend his coronation 409 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty one. 410 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: What a gem Yeah. 411 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: In the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the opies say 412 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: of all this quote, as with other of the better 413 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: known rhymes. Numerous guesses have been hazarded that n historical 414 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: character is portrayed as usual, no evidence is vouchsafed. And lastly, 415 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: little miss Muffett sat on a toughet eating her curds, 416 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: and whey, there came a big spider who sat down 417 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: beside her and frightened Miss Muffett. 418 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: Away. 419 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: Tracy learned this as along came a spider, so did I. 420 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: This first appeared in print in eighteen oh five in 421 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: Songs for the Nursery, as with Mary Mary. Quite contrary 422 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: which we talked about on a previous installment. Some people 423 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: interpret this as being about Mary, Queen of Scott's and 424 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: in this case the spider is Protestant reformer John Knox. 425 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: John Knox was the author of a tract titled the 426 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: First Blast of the Trumpet against the Monstrous Regiment of Women, 427 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: which attacked three Catholic queens, Mary the First of England, 428 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: Mary of Geese, Queen Dowager and Regent of Scotland, and 429 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: Mary Queen of Scotts. Knox was also a major figure 430 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: in the Protestant Reformation in Scotland. Catherine L. Was Thomas 431 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: describes it this way, quote denouncing the frivolous little miss 432 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: Muffett from the pulpit of Saint Giles, until the ecclesiastical 433 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: atmosphere was blue and sulfurous. The Big Spider, with angry 434 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: brow and darkling means, strode down the canongate, turning sharply 435 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: to the right. He quickened his pace to enter Holyrood, and, 436 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: sitting beside her, demanded her recantation, all in vain. Although 437 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: he could frighten little Miss Muffett away from her toughet, 438 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: as he did eventually, never by expostulation, threat or entreaty 439 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: could the Big Spider induce the French bread Scotch beauty 440 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: to recant. Mary was ultimately forced to abdicate and spent 441 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 1: the last nineteen years of her life as a prisoner 442 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: before being executed in fifteen eighty seven. Is there conclusive 443 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,719 Speaker 1: evidence that this poem is about that now and others 444 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: offer a totally different interpretation that this is about English 445 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: naturalist and physician doctor Thomas Muffett, who wrote a lot 446 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: about insects and arachnids, including making an illustrated manual called 447 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: Theater of Insects. Supposedly, this poem is a reference to 448 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: one of his stepchildren, or children, possibly a daughter or 449 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: stepdaughter named patients specifically. Some accounts go for so far 450 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: as to say that Muffett was tormenting his children or 451 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: stepchildren by frightening them with spiders, or even doing experiments 452 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: on them with spider venom. 453 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: Those poor spiders. 454 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: Although Muffett was a real person, he died in sixteen 455 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: oh four, two hundred years before this poem first appeared 456 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: in print. Of course, Mary Queen of Scott's lived even 457 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: longer ago than that, but she was also a much 458 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: better known figure than doctor Thomas Muffett. 459 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 2: There's also some back. 460 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: And forth about what is meant by a toughet in 461 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: this poem. Tough It can mean a hillock or a mound, 462 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: but it can also mean a footstool. In fact, the 463 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: Oxford English Dictionary cites little Miss Muffett as the first 464 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: written use of tofit meaning in to quote from there 465 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: perhaps hasseock or footstool, But then the OED has this 466 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: additional note quote doubtful, perhaps due to misunderstanding of the 467 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: nursery rhyme. The opies note how similar little Miss Muffett 468 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: is to a lot of other rhymes, including Little Jack Horner, 469 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: which we discussed in our first Mother Goose episode. The 470 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: poems all involve someone little Miss Muffy, Jack Horner, Miss Mopsey, 471 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: pull Parrot, Tommy Tackett. The subjects of all these poems 472 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: are all sitting and waiting for something when something else happens. 473 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: Some of these go back to the early eighteenth century, 474 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: so it's possible that there are variations on a little 475 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: poetic formula. So that's our six impossible Mother Goose episodes 476 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: for this time around. I hope folks have enjoyed them. 477 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: I have a little listener mail that is also about 478 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: the meanings of things. Liz sent this, and I love 479 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: the subject of the subject line of the email, which 480 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: is Scott Joplin and the Cakewalk unlocking a core memory. 481 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: So Liz wrote, Hello, Holly and Tracy. I love the 482 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: show and I've been listening for the past few years. 483 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: You're always on my way to Slash from work and 484 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: when doing stuff around the house. I was just listening 485 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: to the Scott Joplin episode on my way to the 486 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: store and it unlocked a core memory that was apparently 487 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: deeply and unknowingly problematic. I'm originally from Texas, no where 488 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: near Texarcana, but If you know anything about Texas, you 489 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: know that Texans are just ridiculously proud of being Texans. 490 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: This episode unlocked a series of core memories from elementary 491 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: school in Austin. I remember learning about Scott Joplin and 492 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: music class. As soon as I saw the title of 493 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: the episode, I remembered hearing the maple leaf rag and 494 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: also having to learn a weird dance number. For some reason, 495 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: I assumed the teacher focused on him because he was 496 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: the father of ragtime and also likely a native Texan 497 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: and an educational two for if you Will. Then Holly 498 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: mentioned a cakewalk, and I had yet another memory unlocked. 499 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: While at this school, the library hosted a yearly cakewalk. 500 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: It was organized like musical chairs. Moms donated a cake, 501 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: we all walked in a circle around some chairs to music, 502 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: and then stopped. When the music stopped, the winner got 503 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: to take home a cake of their choice. So there 504 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: I was in my car driving to the store and 505 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: heard Holly mention the cakewalk and that, uh, it needed 506 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: its own explanation, And I laughed and thought, what explanation? 507 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: I did one every year in elementary school. But then 508 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: you explained its origins and let me tell you, I screamed. 509 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: So yes, cakewalks did continue for some time after Scott 510 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: Joplin's time, well into the nineteen nineties. I don't think 511 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: I thought about the yearly cakewalk in decades, But oh my, 512 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: what a wild flashback this episode brought on. It made 513 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: me wonder what other seemingly benign activities I did as 514 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: a child that have deep roots in racist practices. It's 515 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: wild to think about it, and I think it highlights 516 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: why pods like yours are so important. And then there 517 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: are some pet pictures. There is a cat, a cat 518 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: named Etta. I accidentally printed the pictures, except I printed 519 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: them so big. I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure that 520 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: Holli can see the glory of what I printed by it. 521 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: I think you should frame each of these pages and 522 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: make a giant art installation of a cat that is 523 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: six feet tall. Yeah, it's this would be really really 524 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: an armis if I had printed the whole cat. But 525 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: I just have the left eye and ear in what 526 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: I accidentally printed because I'm just perpetually forgetting to turn 527 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: off the printing of attachments when I print episodes. Then 528 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: that makes me feel like an old person who doesn't 529 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: know how to do email. 530 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: Edna is very cute. 531 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: By the way, Yes, the other two pictures that I 532 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: actually printed out have no visible animal because of my 533 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: printer settings. But anyway, there's a final note about being 534 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: scared to look up the dance that they learned along 535 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: with maple leaf frag to find out if it also 536 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: has some connotations. Liz, first, thank you for sending this note. 537 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: I am sorry I printed it in such a way 538 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: that I cannot just tell everybody what your pets look like. 539 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: You are not the only person now who has had 540 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: this experience. I grew up in North Carolina and went 541 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: to a public school in a somewhat rural to suburban 542 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: kind of area, and our annual I think it was 543 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: the Halloween carnival. It was the same one that we 544 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: talked about in our Crash at Crush episode where they 545 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: would buy like a beat up used car and you 546 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: could pay a dollar to take a swing at it 547 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: with a baseball bat. There was also a cake walk 548 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: every year, and it was very like musical chairs, except 549 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: if I'm remembering it correctly, it was laid out with 550 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: like tape on the floor so that you were walking 551 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: and then something like that. That is my memory of 552 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: cakewalks as well. Yeah, so I don't think it was 553 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: like musical chairs where they take a chair away. I 554 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: think everybody came to a stop and then a number 555 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: was the winning number, and that was who got to 556 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: go get a cake. We didn't participate in this in 557 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: my family, not because we had any aware of the 558 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: history of the cakewalk. 559 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: We did not. 560 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: It was just because it was not what my mom 561 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: wanted to spend money on. She was like, we can 562 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: make a cake at home. I was super ready for 563 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: your mom's issue to be that she did not know 564 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: the nutritional contents of the cake. 565 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: That might have been that. 566 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: She might have assumed that none of the other moms, 567 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: because it would have been mostly other moms doing the baking, 568 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: maybe not everybody, but might have assumed they were not 569 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: good bakers. 570 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: Might have there might have. 571 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: Been like a random element to which cake you got. 572 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: She didn't want to wind up with a cake that 573 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: we would not like. I don't remember the exact tales 574 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: I was five, but yes, yes, lots of places still 575 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: as of them, which that would have been more like 576 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eighty one doing the cakewalk. So yeah, other 577 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: seemingly innocuous things that people may have done in elementary 578 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: school that I have had on my list to do 579 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: an episode about for a long time. May I get 580 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: to you at some point. It maybe not square dancing. 581 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: Apparently there is a whole history of square dancing where 582 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: people were encouraged to do it at school for racist reasons. So, anyway, 583 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us about this 584 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: or any other podcasts for a history podcast at iHeartRadio 585 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 1: dot com. We're all over social media. Missed in History? 586 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: That's why I'll find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, on Instagram, 587 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to our show on the iHeartRadio 588 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: app or wherever you like to get your podcasts. Stuff 589 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 590 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 591 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.