1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and this is part one of 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: our two parter on women in video games. And originally 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: this was gonna just be one episode. We thought, Hey, 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: women in video games about a being about a boom? 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: Wait no, yeah, yeah, because we took to our Facebook 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: page to ask sminty listeners what they want to hear 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: about in terms of women and video games. And once 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: we took that into account and started researching, honestly, this 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: could be a three parter if we really wanted to 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: make it that because things that were requested for us 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: to talk about had to do with women in gaming, credibility, 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: the girl gamer stereotype, getting hit on while playing multiplayer games, 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: what it's like for women in the gaming industry, and 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: just within those few topics, there's still so many things 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: to discuss. Yeah, women, I think women in the gaming 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: industry are so fascinating, mainly because I'm not a math 19 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: person or a science person myself, and so I think 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: these women who are creating these games are so fascinating 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: and and the women who play them. Um, but I 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: was telling Kristen that that there was an ick factor 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: for me when I was reading some of our sources 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: about this topic. And you're thinking, what ick factor, what's 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: your problem girls in gaming? You know? And no, that's 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: that's not at all. The ick factor stems from the 27 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: fact that these women who are both playing the games 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: and designing the games, faced so much abuse, so many 29 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: threats from men and boys in the industry and other gamers. 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: It just created this really icky feeling. But the upside, 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: the bright side to all of the recognition and the 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: more media attention to those ick factors is the fact that, 33 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: regardless us of that, these women who are making and 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: playing games are really starting to change an entire industry, 35 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: or at least broaden an industry that has such a 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: massive reach to so many people. And I'm glad you 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: mentioned to Caroline, science and math because this is in 38 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: a way an extension of our series on women in 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: stems science, technology, engineering in math. Because remember this is 40 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: this is a STEM field. Video games is STEM and yeah, 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: and like the rest of the STEM fields, male dominated exactly. 42 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: So for this part one episode we are going to 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: focus on the video game industry and women in it, 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: and in part two we'll talk more about the women 45 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: who are playing the games and the women actually in 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: the video games. Right, So let's look at a breakdown 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: of who has the controllers. Percent of Americans altogether play 48 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: video games. The average game player is thirty years old, 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: but the largest demographic is thirty six and over. Now, 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: if you're looking just at women, this is coming from 51 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: the Entertainment Software Association Report on Gaming, women make up 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: forty five percent of the entire game playing population. And 53 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: I think that's an important point to make right out 54 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: of the gate, because I think the stereotype is that 55 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: there's like two women total anywhere. It's just you and 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: me sitting here with our old game boys and childhood. 57 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: But we should point out that when we say the 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: entire game playing population, those games are not only things 59 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: like Call of Duty, but also candy Crush on your 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: phone or even board games. This is we're talking about 61 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: mega game here. But then if you look just at 62 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: video games, women still comprise of that gaming population. And 63 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: that's compared to boys seventeen and under, who comprise only 64 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: nineteen percent of the video game population. So there's still 65 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: plenty of women playing video games and there are also 66 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: plenty of women buying video games. Forty six percent of 67 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: the time, women are the most frequent game purchasers, and 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: that might be because we are buying games for ourselves, 69 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: but also buying games for gentlemen in our lives or 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: maybe other women in our lives. Yeah. Well, my mom 71 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: was the one who bought me video games when I 72 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: was a kid. Yeah, so there you go. There we go. 73 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: And by the way, if you can't keep up with 74 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: all of the sources that we're citing, don't worry. All 75 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: of them will be posted in the podcast post over 76 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: on stuff mo I never told you dot Com because 77 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna cite a lot of statistics and we've got 78 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: a lot of sources coming your way. But don't worry, 79 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: you will have one handy reference for that. Well. So, 80 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: as far as what we are playing when we pick 81 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: up those controllers, uh, this is coming from Variety back 82 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: in October, as many as thirty percent of women are 83 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: playing the more violent games like Halo. Uh. Call of 84 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: Duty counts about twenty of their players as women. Well, 85 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: Grand Theft Auto counts women of its audience. I will 86 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: say Caroline that in regard to Halo, I was just 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: haloed out in college from sitting around more hours than 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: I care to even consider watching my then boyfriend and 89 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: his friends playing that game. I can't play Halo for 90 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: that reason. I mean, that's that's it for me. Um. Also, 91 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: I do take issue with this Variety article that repeatedly 92 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: referred to women playing games as quote unquote fem players. 93 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: So strange just came out in. Yeah. That to me, 94 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: when you say fem, that has a totally different connotation 95 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: than just being a woman. Yeah. Now, when it comes 96 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: to who's making the games, the percentage of women shrinks 97 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: pretty drastically. Only eleven percent of video game developers are women, 98 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: and if we look inside the games, especially big name games, 99 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: you have even fewer. Women represented only four percent of 100 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: video game protagonists. For instance, among the top twenty five 101 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: selling games of two thousand thirteen. For instance, in two thirteen, 102 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,679 Speaker 1: among the top selling games, only four percent of those 103 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: games protagonists were women. And when you're in the store 104 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: looking at the boxes themselves, two thirds of all video 105 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: game box art features no female characters whatsoever. Now, there 106 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: are some games on the horizon that are adding, you know, 107 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: the option to play a female character. Games like Call 108 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: of Duty Ghosts, you can customize your character and play 109 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: as a female soldier for the first time, which makes 110 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: sense considering women are now like legit allowed on the 111 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: front lines. So there's that um and the game Mass 112 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: Effect three has also added playable female characters. But I 113 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: mean you see that, like you see how the numbers 114 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: have decreased as krist and I have ticked them off. 115 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: That you know, where you have thirty one percent a 116 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: video game playing people being women, but only of the developers. 117 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: It makes sense that they're you know, there's such a 118 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: small number of women actually developing the games, so that 119 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: kind of bleeds over into not having that many female characters. Yeah, 120 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: so let's talk for a minute about who these women 121 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: are who are working in video games and what kind 122 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: of stuff they're doing. First of all, I would like 123 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 1: to offer a shameless stuff I'm never told you dot 124 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: com plug we recently posted about Carol Shaw, who was 125 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: the first female video game designer, perhaps around the world, 126 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: but at least in the US. She was definitely the first. 127 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: She worked her first job out of college with Atari, 128 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: and she created the highly popular game when she moved 129 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: over to Activision called Reberators. But The interesting thing about 130 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: her is that she's super low profile. She got out 131 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: of video games the gaming into stream entirely in the 132 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: early nineties essentially because she made some wise investments in 133 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: her husband made plenty of cash, so they were like, 134 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: she was like, I don't need to do this anymore. Um. 135 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: But the numbers of women working in video games isn't 136 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: all that greater than it was in Carol Shaw's days 137 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,119 Speaker 1: when she was the only woman really hanging out at Atari. UM. 138 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: In her time in the eighties, for instance, women comprised 139 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: about three percent of the video gaming workforce, but today 140 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: again it's only around twelve percent. Yeah, and when you 141 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: break down even further the women who are in this industry, 142 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: so we we mentioned that they're eleven percent of video 143 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: game designers, they make up three percent of programmers, sixty 144 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: of graphic designers, and of the tech jobs involved, like 145 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: for instance, building the software. And when you look at 146 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: some of those names, we have Donna Bailey who started 147 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: at Atari as an engineer in nineteen eighty. She w 148 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: created Centipede, which I used to play on my t 149 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: I eight five during biology class and freshman year of 150 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: high school. Yeah, and it's interesting that that Bailey was 151 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: working at Atari at the same time as Carol Shaw. 152 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: She came on right after Shaw, but she ended up 153 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: leaving the industry distinctly because of criticism that she had 154 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: to deal with from her mail colleagues. There's an interview 155 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: with Carol Shaw over on this video gaming website, I 156 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: think it's called like Vintage Video Games or something, and 157 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: she didn't really acknowledge sexism as a issue that she 158 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: had to deal with on a day to day basis. 159 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: But she also talked about how growing up she was 160 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: a real math nerd and so she was used to 161 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: being the only woman in the room and it kind 162 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: of just rolled off her back. She said it would 163 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: happen every now and then, but apparently for Donna Bailey 164 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: it was a lot more of a potent issue. Um. 165 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: And someone else who also comes up who's still in 166 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: the industry. She's a rare veteran who's been wor king 167 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: in the industries since n one. That's Brenda Romero, and 168 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: she has credits on more than twenty games. Yeah, and 169 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of criticism from male colleagues and and 170 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: male gamers, etcetera, etcetera, Romero had an interesting quote that 171 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: I cannot say on the podcast where you know, people 172 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: were talking to her about gender issues, and she was 173 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: talking about criticism from men, and she basically said, and 174 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: I will admit the bad words, but she basically said, hey, 175 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: you guys, I helped build this industry. Did you like 176 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: all my pauses? Um, you know, she's basically saying, like, 177 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: I am a veteran, I don't deserve any less respect 178 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: than these these men that I work with, And and 179 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: so there was a lot of frustration in her tone 180 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: that the female gamers and game designers have to put 181 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: up with all that abuse. Well imagine too that if 182 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: you're someone like her who has been working in games 183 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: since the early eighties, how many times she's had to 184 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: answer that question too. I'm sure that gender is perhaps 185 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: an annoying topic for her to even talk about, because 186 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, she probably wants to be recognized as simply 187 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: an amazing veteran designer, not oh, you're a woman, what's 188 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: that like? How do ovaries feel so today? Considering the 189 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: fact that women are still only comprising around of the industry. 190 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: A lot of the advice that you hear for women 191 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: who want to break into the ranks in order to 192 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: do that. Essentially what women need to do is just 193 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: start building games. There are so many resources now, you 194 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: don't have to be working for Nintendo to build an 195 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 1: amazing game. And so it's sort of it reminded me 196 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: actually of advice that we would hear Caroline in journalism 197 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: school of how to become, you know, a credible writer 198 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: is you just have to start writing. Whether you're doing 199 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, freelance jobs literally for free or just starting 200 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: a blog, you just start making your stuff so that 201 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: you have some kind resume for people to look at 202 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: and see that you can actually build these products. And 203 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: on top of that, especially if you're a woman, you 204 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: gotta have a lot of perseverance in order to break in. Well. Yeah, 205 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: and especially since women, young women might not have the 206 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: same avenues open to them that that men do. Especially 207 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about this in the stem fields. 208 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: Not only are there fewer women in the stem fields 209 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: than men, but that just means that there are fewer 210 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: allies bringing you in or even raising your interest if 211 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: you're like a twelve year old in math or science class. 212 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: And that's that's something that Kate Edwards said, she's the 213 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: executive director of the International Game Developers Association UM and 214 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: she says that the root issue is that we really 215 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: need to bolster the availability of STEM programs for girls 216 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: and young women to get them interested in games as 217 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: a career path. And it's the same thing that Kristen 218 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: and I talked about in our whole STEM series. If 219 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: you get out there, if you get the idea into 220 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: girls heads from a young age that these are even 221 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: jobs that are available. Maybe they just don't know, or 222 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: maybe they think, no, that's just a guy thing. So 223 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: getting it into their heads is so very important, which 224 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: leads then and again echoing our STEM series to the 225 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: importance of the visibility of women in games. While it's 226 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: a lot of fun to play or watch something like 227 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: let's say Halo, if I hadn't spent so many hours 228 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: watching an ex boyfriend played it in college, those kind 229 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: of I mean, it's it's it's not saying that all 230 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: all video game characters need to be women in order 231 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: for this to happen, but there is a distinct absence 232 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: of them. And so one thing that comes up a 233 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: lot when you're talking about the video game industry are 234 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: issues of sexism, and that's a controversial topic to bring 235 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: up because a lot of gamers don't take too kindly 236 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: to these kinds of critiques on the industry. But when 237 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: you simply look at the numbers and how marketing money 238 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: is siphoned out, it's the same kind of assumptions that 239 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: are made in the video game industry as are made 240 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: in Hollywood in terms of assuming that, well, you know what, 241 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: if we make a movie about women, guys aren't gonna 242 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: want to go see it, But if we make a 243 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: movie about men, then men and women are gonna go 244 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: see it, So we're gonna make a lot more money, 245 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: even though statistics suggest otherwise. So let's talk a little 246 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: bit how that applies to video games when we come 247 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. Okay, so right before 248 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: the break, Christian was talking about some of the obstacles 249 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: that women have to face in the game gaming industry. Uh, 250 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: one of those being marketing and the fact that a 251 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: lot less money goes to women developers and marketing for 252 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: women led games. Yeah, because a lot of times when 253 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: you get more women on a creative team, they're like, oh, hey, 254 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, we could we could make this game about 255 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: a female protagonist, or at least have you know, women 256 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: in addition to men in the game that you that 257 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: are playable characters. But Jeffrey Zakin, who's a video game analyst, 258 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: talked about this to Penny Arcades Ben Kachia in this 259 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: article that was widely publicized, and zach And said, quote, 260 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: games with a female only protagonist get half the spending 261 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: of female optional protagonist games and only the marketing budget 262 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: of male led games less than that actually, because he 263 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: goes on to explain of that thinking that well, the 264 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: only people playing games or guys, So we gotta make 265 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: games for guys. And well, yes, guys do you make 266 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: up a majority, but you still are overlooking a massive population. 267 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: And one thing they talk about as far as money 268 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: goes is the whole thing of well, it would take 269 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: so much time and money to to, you know, redo 270 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: some of these care actors to be women. And it's like, seriously, 271 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: it takes so long to craft realistic looking breasts, Caroline, 272 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: Well obviously, I mean did you see how long did 273 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: it take to demold Laura Croft's first first figure? And 274 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: this is something that the site VG two four sevens 275 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: Brenna Hillier took issue with an example of this more 276 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: recently when the video game company Capcom was making this 277 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: game called Deep Down, and one of the gamemakers said explicitly, hey, 278 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: we're not going to have any female characters in this game, 279 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: or I think he more just said we're only gonna 280 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: have dudes in this game. But her point was, Hey, 281 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: this is a game about time travelers kind of going 282 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: through and fighting historic missions here and there, and I'm 283 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: just not buying this that somehow because they said, for 284 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote plot reasons, they could only stick with men, 285 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: to which she basically said, hey, you know what, Ay, 286 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm not buying it and be a quote better lazily 287 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: crafted women than no women at all. Basically, you can 288 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: make it work if you want to make it work. Yeah, 289 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: And she she writes this basically fake script between this 290 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: imagined conversation between a gamer and a developer and just 291 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: a woman just like woman character, and through this conversation 292 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: she has these these two dimensional characters realize like, oh wait, 293 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: if we make games that don't treat women like subhuman 294 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: dust bunnies fit only to be rescued, kidnapped, lusted after, 295 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: or left out of the picture altogether, women might buy 296 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: more of our games. Yeah, and if you want to 297 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: remain a growth industry, then it would be wise you 298 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: would think to go after new audiences, new consumers who 299 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: were just sitting there waiting wanting to play games. They're 300 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: already playing games. And I liked how she pointed out, how, hey, listen, 301 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: if you're taking all of this time time to make 302 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: all these different kinds of armor and weapons, and you know, 303 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: carefully sculpting men's pectoral muscles, then you can't just you 304 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: can't add another option, just a one more player option 305 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: for a female. And on top of that, she before 306 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: she even goes into her explanation, sort of makes a 307 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: preemptive Hey, if you are about to comment talking about 308 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: how women have no place in video games, just save 309 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: yourself the time, because I'm not going to respond to it, 310 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: because this is an argument that comes up all the time, 311 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: and it's foolish. It's simply foolishness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, so, um, 312 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: moving outside of the game and into the real world, 313 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: let's look at the actual direct sexism that women in 314 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: the gaming industry experience. UM, Chris and I have talked 315 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: about on the podcast before. Different social movements that kind 316 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: of are birthed on Twitter, various hashtags that sort of 317 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: rally people to a cause, and the gaming industry is 318 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: no different. They got the one reason and why hashtag 319 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: back in twelve that ended up revealing a lot of 320 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: issues that women in the industry face. Yeah, there are 321 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: all sorts of issues of harassment that women were sharing 322 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: via Twitter without hashtag, such as getting groped at gaming conventions, 323 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: issues of isolation, being dissatisfied with the product. One tweet but, 324 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: for instance, said because I got blank stairs when I 325 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: asked why a female soldier in a game I worked 326 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: on looked like a porn star. Um. On top of that, 327 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: there are issues of pay gaps. On average, for instance, 328 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: women make percent less than men in the industry, and 329 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: on and on and on and and In between those 330 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: tweets about issues of harassment, you also had a lot 331 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: of women stepping forward too and saying, hey, if we 332 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: don't want to discourage other women from getting involved in games, 333 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is we need more and 334 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: if someone's looking for a mentor, I'll step up and 335 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: do it. You know, There's there's clearly some solidarity that's 336 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: going on as well. Yeah, but then you have the 337 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: issue of women leaving the industry altogether because of that 338 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: harassment and death threats and rape threats that they have 339 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: faced online. Zoe Quinn, for instance, she created the game 340 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: Depression Quest. She received an onslaught of harassment basically just 341 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: because of her gender, because she dared, as a female 342 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: create a game. Yeah. I forget the name of the site, 343 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: but essentially she made this game herself and posted it 344 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: on um some kind of like game sharing site and 345 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: just got dog piled with all of this harassment going on. 346 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: And I mean, the the interview that she gave to 347 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: Vice magazine was heartbreaking because she just she was clearly 348 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: so exhausted by it, like it was to the point 349 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: to where, you know, when when you get to a 350 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: point to where rape threats really don't have any impact 351 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: on you, that's not a good place to be in. 352 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: And that's not the way it should be, absolutely not. 353 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: And Kate Edwards, who we mentioned earlier, she's the executive 354 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: director of the International Game Developers Association. She was talking 355 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: to Polygon and saying that the organization is looking into 356 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: starting support groups for developers because of this problem. And 357 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: she says that while the harassment isn't having a major 358 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: impact on development, yet she said, we're at the cusp 359 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: of where it could And while men do get death 360 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: threats too, I mean, the bulk of them are against women. 361 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: I mean former BioWare developer Jennifer Helpler, her name is 362 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: in the news a lot because she received death threats 363 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: against her children. Yeah, the story of her harassment is 364 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: just kind of mind boggling in the way that it 365 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: took off. Because there was a snippet from some interview 366 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: that she had done years ago about her like gaming 367 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: habits or something, and it got reposted on a forum, 368 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: and essentially a cyber mob organized around it, and eventually 369 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: it got to the point to where people we had 370 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: found out not only her address but also the address 371 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: of her children's school, and we're posting it online, threatening to, 372 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: you know, kidnap her children from school, telling her that 373 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: her children should have been aborted, threatening to rape her. 374 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: And and even when male developers get death threats as well, 375 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: because they also deal with this. You know, we don't 376 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: want to say that women are exclusively the targets of 377 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: this kind of cyber harassment, but a lot of times too, 378 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: when men get threats, it's often linked to and we're 379 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: going to rape your wife. They're always these like just 380 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: violent rapey the threats that happened, and if they're not 381 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: threatening their wives or with violence, they're just talking about 382 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: how you're gay, like well in in possibly other words. 383 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: But I mean that's the gist, like we're going to 384 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: insult you and threaten you by saying that you're gay. Yeah, 385 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: And this is this is the dark side of the gaming, 386 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: the hardcore, the hardest of the hardcore gaming community. Which 387 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: there was one article that I was reading talking about 388 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: how a lot of them actually might be younger boys, 389 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: that subset of the you know, the seventeen and under demographic, 390 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: who might be making more of these direct kind of 391 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: threats because older men with jobs might not you know, 392 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: might be a little wiser to putting leaving a breadcrumb 393 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: trail of cyber harassment that could possibly threaten their employment 394 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: at some point. Um. But it's horrifying to see what 395 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: women like Jennifer Helper and Zoe Quinn are having to 396 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: put up with that shouldn't be part of the expected job. 397 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: And that was the thing Kate Edwards was saying, was that, 398 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's really becoming something that you need to 399 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: especially if you're a woman in the industry you got 400 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: a prep for. Yeah. It has a total chilling effect 401 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: not only on women wanting to enter the field, but 402 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: on them wanting to stay in the field. Yeah. And 403 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: it's also a byproduct too of social media, in the 404 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: sense that you know, there has never been a thinner 405 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: line between you know, the industry side and the players side, 406 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: where now, you know, thanks to social media, you can 407 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, tweet directly to these people whatever you think. 408 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: And I think also part of the harassment that Heppler 409 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: was receiving was because she was um influential and making 410 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: the switch in a BioWare game to allow gay romance 411 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: among male protagonists. Yeah, you know, but I mean, speaking 412 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: of that, that social media, that fine line. One one 413 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: thing we read was talking to this guy who was 414 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: basically the quote unquote sheriff. He worked for Microsoft when 415 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: they were developing this game, and there were changes there, 416 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: there were going to be changes happening, and so as 417 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: the sheriff for kind of social media interaction, he was 418 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: tasked with dealing with some of this harassment and these 419 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: these basically crazed fans, this core group of gamers who 420 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: were so upset by the changes and he because he 421 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: was a public face, he himself became the like got 422 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: the brunt the abuse, and he was like, look, I'm 423 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: not I'm not dealing with that. I think he moderated 424 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: Xbox Live, which I cannot even imagine because the kind 425 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: of there are studies that have been done analyzing the 426 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: comments that players will make back to each other while they're, 427 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: you know, playing games together, and it's like horrific stuff 428 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: that they say back and forth. So you can only 429 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: imagine if they're disgruntled at some kind of game change 430 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: that is being made. And he said he's no longer 431 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: working there, but he told the interviewer that he still 432 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: gets like fifty emails a day from people who are 433 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: just enraged about something. Um, I feel like those people 434 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: should like take up a volunteering project or or become 435 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: a social advocate for something like direct that passion into 436 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: something useful. I don't know, well, I think it's I 437 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: don't think it's because working on the internet. I don't 438 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: want to believe that it's because people are evil in 439 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: their hearts, because that would just make it really hard 440 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: for me to wake up and go to work in 441 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: the morning. I think it's because of the anonymity of 442 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: the Internet. This is the awful byproduct of it is 443 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: that people are growing up more and more having no 444 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: consequence for their communications because we are communicating more and 445 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: more via text message, via you know, instant message, Twitter, 446 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: YouTube comments, and you just say whatever comes to your mind. 447 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: But I do wish they would direct the rage into 448 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: something more productive. Yeah, you and me both, um. But 449 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: moving away from this dark underbelly of what it is 450 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: like sometimes to work in video games, let's go on 451 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: the complete opposite end of the spectrum to not so 452 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: much the women making the games, but the women who 453 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: might be promoting the games at conventions like E three. 454 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: Although I think the three is cracking down on this. Um, 455 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: we gotta talk about booth babes for a minute. Yeah, 456 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: and booth babes. You know, it might be models, it's 457 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: it's typically really attractive younger women who do know a thing. 458 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: They tend to know a thing or two about the games, 459 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: whether it's whether it's just to be able to answer 460 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: basic questions from guys at conventions or whether they're actual 461 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: gamers themselves. But there there are a lot of stories 462 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: same same with UM booth babes at marijuana weed conventions 463 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: at UH beer tasting conventions, like it seems to be 464 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: a common thread through conventions really. But anyway, um, whether 465 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: it's sex cells, Oh my gosh, did I just coin 466 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: a term? I think you just coin yeah, that we're 467 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: onto something. But so anyway, these these booth babes as 468 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: they're called, are pretty popular way to kind of like 469 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: schill your product, draw people to your booth, you know, 470 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: attract more men to your product. But they're kind of 471 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: not as big of a thing as they used to be. Yeah, 472 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: I think that as there has been more speaking of 473 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: the power of social media, I mean, for every evil, 474 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: there is also a lot of good, including like the 475 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: one reason why hashtag. But also I think that this 476 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: is partially why UH booth babes are seen in a 477 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: less positive lights, simply because everybody's seeing them now. Whenever 478 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: a giant gaming convention happens, you know, there's now this, well, 479 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: who's using booth babes? Are we still trying to use 480 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: boobs to sell video games or technology? Um and Spencer 481 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: Chin wrote a piece for tech Crunch about a little 482 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: experiment that he did with a split test for UM. 483 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: I forget which company it was, but it was some 484 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: tech company and they were allowed to have two spaces 485 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: at a convention. He was like, you know what I'm 486 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: gonna do. I'm going to have just knowledgeable people at 487 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: one and I'll have booth babes at the other, and 488 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: we'll see how many sales are converted for one versus 489 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the other. And guess what. The booth babes don't actually 490 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: help sell products because a lot of times the men 491 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: who you know swarm to booth babes are probably not 492 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: the key stakeholders that you need to talk to in 493 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: order to actually sell your product and mass a lot 494 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: of times they're just maybe lower level employees who are 495 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: really pumped about seeing, you know, getting to go to 496 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: Vegas for a week and maybe take pictures with booth babes. Um. 497 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: Whereas when you stock your booth, which is knowledgeable people 498 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: who may or may not be in bikinis, you actually 499 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: sell things a lot more effectively. Yeah, especially if if 500 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: the person walking around from booth to booth is a woman. 501 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: Women tend to avoid the booth babes there. Yeah. Um, 502 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: but I will say this, remind me to you of 503 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: that email that we received and read at the end 504 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: of our marijuana episode from a craft beer model a 505 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: beer babe, if you will, and she's basically saying, listen, 506 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: I have blonde hair and boobs, and I really enjoy beer, 507 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: and this is a stereotype that I have to deal 508 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: with the assumption that just by virtue of how I look, 509 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: that I'm a bimbo and so booth babe. Elaine Low 510 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: wrote sort of a similar self defense over at Jezebel, 511 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: basically being like, hey, listen, booth babes are getting all 512 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: sorts of flak, but we're usually just trying to make 513 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: a buck at these things. Yeah, she says, the depressing 514 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: truth is that standing around in a costume at a 515 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: convention pace far better than writing ever has. So it's 516 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: it's being used to supplement other career goals, and I'm 517 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: sure she probably makes more doing that than she would 518 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: like waiting tables at a coffee house or something. Yeah, 519 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: and the thing about it, too is that you are 520 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: There was an article published at The Verge in early 521 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen talking about how booth babes are gradually 522 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: being replaced by booth bros and booth bots, which makes 523 00:30:54,520 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: so much more sense because this is technology robots John Robot. Yeah, 524 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: he was talking about how people just like flock to 525 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: these booth bots because they're interactive and you can you know, 526 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: I mean, your your audience is gamers and you're putting 527 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: a big old robot in your booth like, that's awesome. Yeah, 528 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: I would want to go play with the robot. I'd 529 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: rather go play with the robot. And I think as 530 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: this has gotten more and more attention, sort of like 531 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: with the whole bro grammar culture in you know, the 532 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: tech industry as well, where it's being a little bit 533 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: more looked down upon. To be so directly insensitive to 534 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: the women who are starting to comprise greater numbers of 535 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: your industry, it just makes you look a little foolish 536 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: if to use that kind of knee jerk promotion. And 537 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: I don't have her name in front of me, but 538 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: there was actually a relatively high profile women women in 539 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: video games who stepped down from a position because with 540 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: with a company, because she went to an event and 541 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: they were booth babes everywhere. You're just like, Nope, you 542 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: don't know. You clearly your company, you know standards, clearly 543 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: don't align to my standards. See you later. I'll find 544 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: somebody who actually gets it interesting. Yeah, And so I 545 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: mean that kind of leads us to this question of 546 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: is it getting better? And yes, I think it's absolutely 547 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: getting better. There's still so many horror stories, particularly coming 548 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 1: from you know, just these cyber mobs that pop up 549 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: every now and then. But I think in terms of 550 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: the industry itself, there's at least more recognition and there 551 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of women at the top. We don't 552 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: want to make this a totally deb downer kind of 553 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: episode because there are a lot of women who are 554 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: doing a lot of amazing things. You've got women like 555 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: Jade Raymond, who's the head of Ubisoft Toronto, who oversaw 556 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: a three person team creating Tom Clancy Splinter Cell Blacklist. Yeah. 557 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: There's also Bonnie Ross and Kikey wolf Kill at three 558 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: three industries that are heading up high profile games such 559 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: as my favorite, the Halo franchise. UM There's also Kim 560 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: mcculloffe and Elizabeth Sampet who are leaving leading game designers 561 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: at Microsoft Game Studios and Storm eight. Hope Cochrane is 562 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: the CFO of King, which publishes Candy Crush. Let's be 563 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: honest with women. We love Some Candy Crush uh Indicaid 564 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: CEO is Stephanie bearish Um. There's also hollylu who co 565 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: founded CABAM which is known for its Kingdoms of Camelot franchise, 566 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: and there are I mean, we could go on and 567 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: on and on. There is literally a laundry list of 568 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: women sitting on these notes in front of my face. 569 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: And I don't want to just turn this into calling, 570 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, a roll call of every single woman, but 571 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: it is excited to see, whether it's with independent games 572 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: or with larger corporations, you do have women at the 573 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: top levels. Kind of it's reflective of what's going on 574 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: in the broader tech industry where you got we got 575 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: plenty of women on the top, and we have a 576 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: lot of women and I think too really want to 577 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: break in there. It's like, how can we build that 578 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: bridge to where you know, there's more of a direct 579 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: pipeline between the two because the younger women need mentors. 580 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: And one thing that's come up to in conversations of 581 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: women in the industry is how it is so important 582 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: to create an environment that will keep them around long 583 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: enough to where to where they are. Like a Brenda 584 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: Romero who has veteran insight. Yeah that's important. Yeah, Well, 585 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the women UH in the list of 586 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: women at the top of the industry, some of them, 587 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: you know, rose to the top of some of them 588 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: co created their companies or solely created their companies, and 589 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: there is some recognition for that. Microsoft's recent Women in 590 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: Gaming Awards has quickly grown in just six years. It 591 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: began as a series of informal dinners hosted by a 592 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: group of female developers from the Xbox division UH and 593 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: this past year they honored Anita Sarkisian, whose name is 594 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: all over everything when you look up anything about themen 595 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: in gaming. Yeah, and talk about controversial. Lord, we're gonna 596 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: talk about Anita Sarcasian in our next episode, I'm sure, 597 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: much to the chagrin of at least one person listening 598 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: who posted about how he didn't want to hear about 599 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: her name on her Facebook page, But we have to 600 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: talk about her. She actually just received a huge award 601 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: from the UH Game Developers Association. It's some sort of 602 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: ambassadorial award recognizing people who have changed the industry for 603 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: the better. And I think that right there is assigned 604 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: to of how the industry is improving, So you know, 605 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of it's a tough road to hoe 606 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: right now. I think for if you, if you're a 607 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: woman in gaming, but I mean having Matt and talked 608 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: to women in the industry knew and who have been 609 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: in there for a while, I mean women they do 610 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: it because they love it. They're making things that that 611 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: are really fun to play and really enjoyable, and and 612 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: I feel like that passion for games sort of balance 613 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: is out, at least to some extent, the issues the 614 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: harassment or sexism that they might have to deal with 615 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: at least for a little while, because I mean the 616 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: fact is a lot of that abuse is coming from 617 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 1: people who feel threatened, a lot of men and boys 618 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: who feel like, no, this is a male dominated industry 619 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: needs to stay a male dominated industry. So I'm going 620 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: to abuse you into maintaining the status quo, yeah, or 621 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: just kind of the misguided logic industry wide of thinking 622 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: that you have one specific demo of you know, uh, 623 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: an eighteen year old male gamer who is the only 624 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: person that you should cater to. But I think that 625 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: perspective is absolutely changing, and we're going to talk a 626 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: lot more about that and about the women who are 627 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: playing video games and the women in video games in 628 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: our part two of women in video Games. So now 629 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: I hope that there are some people men, women whoever, 630 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: who are working in the industry or might have some 631 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: insights that they can share with us. Let us know 632 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 1: your thoughts. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where 633 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: you can email us. You can also tweet us at 634 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast, and we've got a couple of messages 635 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. I have a letter 636 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: here from Megan about our cars episode driving in Gender. 637 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: She says, I just wanted to let you guys know 638 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: that I am a woman and mom, and I am 639 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: the main driver in my household. For a long time, 640 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: when we rode anywhere as a family, we rode in 641 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: my car just because that was where my daughter's car 642 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: seat was, and I almost always drove. But since then 643 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: we've bought a family car, both mine and my husband's, 644 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: but I still drive of the time. When we go 645 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,720 Speaker 1: somewhere together, like in relationships where the man usually drives, 646 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: I typically drive because my husband is kind of a 647 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: nervous driver and he prefers to ride. He's still comments 648 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: about me speeding and such, but he just gets much 649 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: more frustrating when he is driving, so it's just easier 650 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: for me to do it. I typically don't mind it, 651 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: but when he does drive, I enjoy the break. That's funny, Megan. 652 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: My boyfriend also comments on my speeding, and he can 653 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: just deal with it because I'm driving. So thank you. 654 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: Uh well, I've been an email here from Heather, also 655 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: about our men and Cars episode. She said I had 656 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: to laugh because this was a timely episode. I'm forty 657 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: three and just purchased a new car last weekend. Since 658 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: both my husband and son are in a physical therapy 659 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: assistant program right now, I'm the primary breadwinner. I went 660 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: to see about getting a car for my son and 661 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: ended up buying a car for myself instead, and got 662 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: my son a perfectly good hand me down. He was 663 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: totally happy to get it. By the way, even though 664 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: the salesman knew I was the primary breadwinner and that 665 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 1: my car was paid off, he still asked me if 666 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: I was okay to buy the car without my husband. 667 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: I smiled and simply said yes, even if he was here, 668 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: I would be making the same for ches. And she 669 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: goes on to say another thing I found funny is 670 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: the stereotype that women don't know how to drive manual transmissions. 671 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: I was taught on a stick shift and actually prefer 672 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: to drive them to an automatic. I think it's because 673 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm such a control freak. Many times over the years, 674 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: salespeople have said, oh, this is a stick shift. Is 675 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: that okay? I tell them that I actually prefer that, 676 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: and they relax. The funny thing is that I've never 677 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: seen this happen when my husband has gone looking for cars. 678 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 1: My last car was a stick and when the woman 679 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: came out to go over the final paperwork, she was 680 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: reading quickly and started handing me the keys and then 681 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: pulled them back as she said, oh, this is a 682 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,880 Speaker 1: stick shift. Can you drive a stick I thought, really no, 683 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: I just figured out how to drive one with a 684 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: brand new car. Here's your sign something's never change. The 685 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: can you drive a stick has now become are you 686 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: okay to buy this without your husband? For the record, 687 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: I have the better driving record in our household, and 688 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: the way we decide who drives is by whose car 689 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: we're taking. If it's mine, I drive, If it's his, 690 00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: he drives. However, on long trips we take turns, So 691 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: thanks Heather, and thanks to everybody who's written in to us. 692 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can 693 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: email us and to find links to all of our 694 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: social media as well as this podcast episode with all 695 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: of our sources included. And you know, if you want 696 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: to watch our videos and read our blogs as well, 697 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: there's one place to go. It's stuff Mom. Never Told 698 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 699 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it How stuff works dot com. 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