WEBVTT - Uses of the Insanity Defense 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to you stuff you should know from how stuff 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:12.840 Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:16.960 Josh Clark, I'm hungry, and there's Charlotte. Did that make 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.079 you hungry? It did? We were just talking about I 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:22.120 made my last chili the season, and Josh's over here 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.479 mouth watering, yeah, because you're talking about for tea soup, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.479 white chili, bread chili. I'll eat any kind of chili really, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.000 And Jerry always eats in here. People don't know that 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.960 she eats lunch while we were for so this smell 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.720 of her stuff always wots over. It's delicious. The avocado 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.440 looks top notch Jerry, It's insane how good that stuff is. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.920 Oh man, Uh, it's funny that you bring that up, Chuck, 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.440 because we are talking today about the insanity defense. Is 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.400 that why you just did that? Yeah, you know, Chuck. Yeah, 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.240 for a very long time, basically since there was is 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.520 such a thing as law, you know, prior to the 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.280 advent of law in western civilization, if I killed your brother, 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.760 you would come kill me. Yeah, and I right, that 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.240 was actually the first law, the Code of Hammurabi from 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.919 the Bible. But a little after that, right, and actually 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.520 I think it predates the Bible Hammurabi. Yeah, I mean 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:30.399 it's like on a black obelisk. Yeah, all right, that's old. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:35.600 That's what I mean. Um, the pretty much the whole 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.759 idea behind law from the get go was the idea 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.080 of what was going on in your head when you 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:48.760 did something motive tent. There's a difference between accidentally killing 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.120 somebody and killing someone on purpose, and this was the 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.560 idea behind law, to get to the bottom of it 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.600 and then punish accordingly. And so it's it's a pretty 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.160 short hop, skip and a jump from getting to the 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.920 bottom of what someone was thinking at the time to 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:09.840 finding that some people weren't thinking anything that any sane 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:16.160 human being would recognize as rational. And with that understanding 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.520 came the beginnings the premise of what we recognize now 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.760 is the insanity defense. But this this whole idea that 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:29.040 somebody can that the insane, those who are mentally ill 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:38.560 um can't understand or grasp the criminality, the moral wrongness 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:43.119 of their act um. The idea that that's out there, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.440 that people like that are out there, has moved us, 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.119 I think, quite compassionately, like this check one for humanity. 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.840 In my opinion, to protect them, like we need to 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.120 make sure they don't do that again. But that's not 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:58.200 evil and the point of law is to punish evil, 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.160 right fielders. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, you know so. Um, 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.640 the from the beginning of understanding this too, even to today, 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:16.160 that the insanity defense has undergone evolution after evolution after evolution. Yeah, 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.200 and you know quite a bit about this a little bit. Um. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.799 It started out in sixteenth century England and um. At 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.760 the time, Uh, they had the wild beast test in 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:31.760 England where a person was so depraved of understanding or 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.400 memory of like what they had done that uh quote 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.880 no more than an infant of brute or a wild 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.800 beast could be found not guilty of his crimes. Um. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.880 And it's important to say in insanity is not a 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.560 medical condition, Like you can't look it up and define 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.000 insane in like the medical what was was the book 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.080 the d S d S, d S M. Insanity is 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.480 not in there, I don't think, um. And there's no 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.480 single standard in the United States were defining it um 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.160 in the court system as far as the defense goes 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:08.000 even today. Yeah, Like different states have different methods. There's 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.320 not like a single federal standard. Yeah, and there's actually 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.240 a conversation now of whether or not that should be. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.880 That's a constitutional right protected by the Eighth Amendment that 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:22.039 you are, um, you have a right to plead insanity 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.719 or try to prove that you were insane. And yeah, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.560 because some states recognize it, right, Uh yeah, as we'll 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.560 find out. Um. So there's a couple of different um 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.479 tests that the United States generally operate under. And the 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.760 first one is the uh monoton test. You pronounced that. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.680 I think it's m apostrophe not in and it looks 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.800 like it should be McNaughton, but they left the sea 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.560 out and replace it with an apostitis exactly. So he's 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.960 very stylish. And that was in the UK and the 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.360 eighteen forties, and I guess we should go ahead and 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.520 talk about that case now. Well, Daniel Manon, Yeah, yeah, um. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:02.000 He was a Scottish woodwork um who believed that Prime 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.920 Minister Robert Peel and the Pope were plotting against him. Yeah, 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:12.120 so um, Manaunton went to London and he shot and 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.840 killed Peel's um secretary. Now, was that a mistake in 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:18.000 the identity thing or was it just a bad shot? 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.360 I didn't see kill the wrong person. Yes, but he 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.640 did kill that person with the intent of killing Peel 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.760 because he thought that Peel was out to get him. Um, 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.400 and so Peel was. He was tried, but he was 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.680 acquitted by reason of insanity and he was sentenced to 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.200 life in Bedlam, which was not a nice place to be. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:42.480 It just sounds like, you know, why would you name 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.560 it Bedlam unless it was just awful. Well, you know, 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.520 this is where it comes from. Yeah, because Bedlam was 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.360 like kind of a British um. I think it was open. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.760 It was open in twelve seven and it was kind 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.920 of short for Bethlehem, and it was the first mental 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.719 asylum in Europe. Yeah, and this guy was sentenced to 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:00.839 life there, which is that's that was not a nice 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.400 thing to have happened to you. But even still, the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.679 fact that some guy tried to kill the Prime Minister 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.279 and was not thrown into prison, which I imagine was 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.480 even worse than Bedlam. Um. Queen Elizabeth herself came out 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.839 and said, well, what are you guys doing? What courts 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.479 explain yourselves. And what the courts came up with was 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.160 what came to be known as the Magnaton rule. They said, 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:28.000 if you here's a test for insanity. If somebody UM 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:30.279 doesn't know what they're doing at the time they commit 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.320 the crime, or they don't know what they're doing was 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.320 right or wrong. It's also called the right wrong test. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.800 Then from now on under British law, we're going to 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.240 uniformly say that that person is insane and can be 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.279 acquitted of a crime. They really called it the right 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:49.680 wrong test. It's along the nose UM, so that's a 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.400 monoton test and what we'll get to how that applies today. 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.000 UH and then came along UM American Law Institute the 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.360 a l I established an insanity test in nineteen two, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.279 um laid out in the Model Penal Code, and they 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.520 then began to consider what they called irresistible impulse. So 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.280 if you're a defendant, you could not refrain from doing 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.960 something you knew was wrong, like you you can see red, 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:17.960 you know what's wrong to kill someone, but you just 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.440 couldn't help yourself, like what you might call a crime 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:22.960 of passion or something like that, like you're so overwhelmed 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.440 with rage or vengeance or whatever. You know what you're 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.560 doing is wrong, but you can't stop yourself. It's also 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.200 called the volition rule. YE you're doing it like Shawshank 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.040 for instance, although he didn't really kill anyone, but that's 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.080 what they thought was Tim Robbins had walked in on 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.360 his wife and like, try this guy. So, um, under 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.560 this test, h you were criminally insane if you're unable 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.880 to quote appreciate the criminality of conduct or to conform 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.680 your conduct to the requirements of the law. So you 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.640 can still go out and kill someone and uh use 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.880 gloves and dispose of the body and all that stuff 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.800 and still be considered insane under this standard used to 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.400 it was pretty it was pretty controversial. And then twenty 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.880 years after that, I got named John Hinckley changed all 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.280 that again, which led to the Insanity Defense Reform Act 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.320 of eighty four. So what happened with Hinkley? We all 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.040 remember that, right, Yeah, he went after Reagan to impress 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.440 Jodie Foster and he shot Reagan and he was acquitted. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.520 He was found not guilty by reason of insanity, and 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.960 the nation went crazy. Yeah, people were like because it 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:31.760 was the president, you know, like, how can you acquit 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.880 this guy? Right? Well, not only that, it was when 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.880 Monoton was sentenced to bedlam and the Monoton Rule came 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.719 about for about a hundred years after that, maybe a 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:47.360 little less. If you were found insane, whether or not 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.320 you're acquitted, you still spent the rest of your life 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:54.000 in an insane asylum. As psychology progressed further and further 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:55.600 and got to the point where they're like, hey, this 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.800 person's cured. This person's cured. That person. Sometimes when you 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.200 were found not guilty, very's in insanity, you weren't even 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.080 like you got out after a couple of years. It 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.200 was basically tantamount to getting off. And by the time 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.959 Hinckley was acquitted, UM that the public kind of saw 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.719 that that was the case, like he wasn't going to 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.079 get any kind of punishment, and we need to do something. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:23.200 So they came up with a reform for the insanity defense. Yeah, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.640 and basically that sort of put the ali standard aside 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.920 and brought us back to something more like the magnoton rule. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:36.319 And UH even more significantly, probably they federal and state 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:41.240 shifted the burden of proof after Hinckley to UH defense, 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.640 so you had to instead of being in on the prosecution, UM, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.120 it was on the defense to prove that they were 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.160 UH with clear evidence that they were legally insane. At 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.360 the time, So that was a big deal that shift. Yeah, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.000 and yeah, they did away with the volition rule too, right, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.160 I think so. And and it's important to know that 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.880 when you there's two ways to to use the insanity role. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.760 You can go guilty by reasons of insanity or not 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.600 guilty by reasons of insanity, which is interesting that you 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.920 can use the same thing for guilty or not guilty. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.400 But um, it's there to protect the mentally ill, you know. 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.360 So it's a it's a good thing, and it's not 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.839 it's pretty tough to get it through. Like only one 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.280 percent of cases are successful, and then only about fifteen 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.840 of that one percent are actual acquittals. So it's not like, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.680 you know, oh I was I was insane at the time, 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.160 and so you can't throw me in jail. Yeah, well 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.240 it's pretty rare at the time. Is a really big 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.319 thing too. You can't just be like, oh, well, I'm 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:40.920 mentally ill, so I gotta let me off, because then 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.640 I have blanket immunity from any of my actions. You 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.600 have to be able to prove that at that time 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.840 you didn't understand what you were doing was wrong, you 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:54.360 were not competent to too. I guess stand trial, Yeah, 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.280 and for that and convince a jury of that, which 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.720 is that's the trick. Yeah. So we have some famous 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.760 cases here. Yeah Manton his case came in uh eighteen 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.720 forty three, but um, he wasn't the first one in 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.040 the West to uh, I guess get off for being insane. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.440 Acquitted by reason of insanity. Um. In the United States 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.400 back in eighteen thirty five, a guy named Richard Lawrence, 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:25.480 who was a house painter, um, was acquitted by reason 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.400 of insanity. We're trying to kill the president. Yeah, trying 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.839 to kill him really hard to Andrew Jackson was the 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.000 president at the time. Yeah. I don't think I knew 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.040 this until this article. I didn't need did you know 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.400 you didn't know? Okay, I'm not a dummy. Then he 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.559 had a derringer, and I think derringers at the time 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:47.320 were notorious for not firing. It fired, it fired bullet, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.120 so it went off, but the bullet didn't come out. Well, yeah, 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.360 that's what I'm saying. They were known for not firing correctly. 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.120 And uh. He actually had two derringers and they both misfired, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.600 and apparently Jackson went after him with his cane like 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.000 you know this dude was trying to kill me. Like 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.680 there was no secret service at the time. I guess 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.840 secret service was his cane, right. He happened to be 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.880 coming out of a state funeral. And so not only 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.480 did Andrew Jackson beat this guy with his kane, none 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.040 other than Tennessee Senator Davy Crockett helps to subdue again, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.000 of course he did. Richard Lawrence is like, this is awesome. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.760 I'm getting beat by Davy Cross Jackson. I'll be remembered forever. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.520 And he was and as uh if you know about him, Um, 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.040 but he was acquitted and committed to a mental asylum 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.160 and that was the end of Richard Lawrence as far 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.040 as we know. Yeah, and we should say like he 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.120 was it wasn't just going after the president that made 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.600 him insane. He was He believed he was Richer the 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.800 Third uh, the king who was recently found buried beneath 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.719 the parking lot. Oh yeah, um, he thought he was 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.800 Richer the Third and the Andrew Jackson had killed his 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.600 father and that by killing Andrew Jackson, um, a lot 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:55.880 more money would be available. This is during a depression, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.680 and Jackson actually, for his part, came to believe that 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.480 Richard Lawrence was a patsy in an assassination attempt carried 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.280 out by the rival I think Wig Party who wanted 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.240 him out of the presidency, which wasn't true, no, but 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.439 he spent the rest of his life paranoid about it. Alright, 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:22.920 So uh ezra Pound, poet, writer, and unbeknownst to me, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.360 uh anti Semite and fascist. I had no idea. I 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.560 didn't either. He was um. And this was a tricky 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.920 case because most people believe now that he wasn't insane 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.480 and that he just really I knew the right people 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.480 and pulled the right strings to get out of a crime. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.760 So he was a big Mussolini guy. Moved to Italy 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.479 and started doing a radio broadcast, began writing and broadcasting 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.480 these anti Semitic, anti Roosevelt rants during World War Two. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:52.960 That doesn't sit well with the United States, of course, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.880 especially not when we invade Italy and take over Ya. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.320 And so uh it was an act of treason, and 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.480 he was arrested and imprisoned in Italy, and then after 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.720 Mussolini died, he was extradited. Uh faced these charges and 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.880 he pled insanity and was actually found not competent to 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.920 stand trial and spent the rest of his days in 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.800 a middle asylum, Saint Elizabeth's in d C, Washington, DC. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:18.400 He didn't spend the rest of his days. He got 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.280 out in nineteen fifty eight. Oh. I thought he died 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.240 at night, and while he was at St. Elizabeth's, which 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.040 was headed by a devotee of Ezra Pound, a guy 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.760 named Dr winfried Overholser, Sr. That's not a real name. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.440 I swear he was the head of Saint Elizabeth and 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.400 he thought Pound was just one of the greatest literary 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.560 figures alive. I thought he died there and no, and 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.000 so he vouched for him and um. Basically Pound was 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.360 allowed to have like visitors over for sex anytime, and he 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.040 he had a really cushy um life while he was there, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.120 and got out and got around being tried for treason 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.640 even though he was never declared insane. No doctor ever 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.640 said this man's insane. They just vouched for him that 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.680 he was. I can't remember how they put it, but 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.280 basically they got around it with some antickes off his 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.920 rocker is that the legal term. Uh. The next one 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.840 is pretty interesting to Anthony and William Esposito brothers dubbed 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.360 the Mad Dog killers in one in January, New York City, 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.040 they held up their office manor and office manager for 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.400 about six fifty bucks and then shot and killed him. 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.400 And then this wild police chase on foot down Fifth 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.520 Avenue or up Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, like darting in 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.640 and out of department stores, shooting and stuff. One of 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.080 the guys gets popped in the leg, goes down, plays dead, 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.360 and then shoots and kills the officer as he approaches them. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.200 The dirty rat, Oh man, that's such a dirty right move. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.040 The other guy or when he shot and killed the 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.040 cop um, he got up and starry to run off 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.760 in a bunch of New Yorkers got on top of 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.760 him and beat him unconscious. That's the beauty of New York. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.800 And they they found the other guy his brother in 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.280 in a convenience store, and so they were caught and tried, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:13.240 and throughout the trial they barked and drooled and banged 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.560 their heads on the on the desk because apparently this 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.880 is what insane people do exactly, And the jury didn't 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.640 buy it and convicted him both sentenced him to death. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.360 Actually yeah, And while they were at sing sing they 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.160 continued this I mean I I don't know if people 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.360 thought it was real or not, So I don't I'm 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.360 hesitated to say continued the charade because maybe they were 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.440 a little off. But um, they continued this in prison, 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.800 and they basically didn't care in sing sing and they 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.960 were put to death in so unsuccessful in their bid 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.200 to get off on the insanity rule. Yeah, like you said, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.680 only is effective in one percent of cases, Andrew Goldstein, Yeah, 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.960 I remember this going down, do you really? Yeah, this 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:02.400 is such a stead case. Nine He uh pushed a 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.680 woman named Kendra Webdale in front of the end train 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.960 at the twenty three Street station during a psychotic episode. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:14.399 And this was a true case of someone who was deeply, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.680 deeply troubled. You know. It wasn't someone who said, let 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.439 me use the insanity defense because I didn't know what 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.080 I was doing at the time. He uh started off 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.800 his life as a pretty bright guy and then started 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.200 suffering delusions in college and had been in and out 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.480 of psychiatric hospitals. Um had had violent episodes with his mother, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.200 violent behavior, basically committed self committed thirteen times over a 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.440 two year period, and was just released a few weeks 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.399 before he had pushed this poor woman in front of 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.560 the train which killed her. Yeah, and um, as a 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.800 result of her death, New York came up with something 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.000 called Kendra's Law, which gives judges the power to um 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:59.000 forcibly commit people they think need psychiatric attention for up 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.600 to seventy two hours. Um, which is a big deal. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.560 But in this case it doesn't quite jibe from what 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:13.200 I understand, because Goldstein did voluntarily seek treatment. Oh yeah, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.880 it's just a sad case. He was tried three times 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.240 for it. The first time there was a hung jury. 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.960 He played insanity. The second time he was found guilty. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.400 But um, that uh, that finding what was what would 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:30.040 that be called? Verdict? Yeah? That verdict? Man, something's up 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.959 with me? That was thrown out on a technicality as 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.040 I understand. And then in two thousand and five he 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.680 was tried for a third time and play guilty, yeah, 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.320 to manslaughter though not murder. Yeah, and he has in 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.560 prison and he was sitce the twenty three years plus 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.439 five of probation, and like you said, Kender's Law was 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:52.359 passed as a result. So yeah, very very sad case. Yeah, 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.639 there's no nobody comes out a winner on that. You 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:00.359 got one more yeah, um? John Delling I mentioned or not, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.439 um that there was a discussion about whether or not 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.240 someone has a constitutional right to plead insanity. Um. This 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.600 is the guy that brought it up most recently. Um. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.920 Back in two thousand seven, he shot over the course 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:15.919 of a couple of months, he shot three of his 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.520 friends friends, Yeah, and killed two of them. One was 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:24.119 a childhood friend, were friends since childhood. And um, it 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:30.240 was he was a diagnosed paranoid. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.479 And um, he was under the impression that people were 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:38.760 stealing his powers. I guess the people he that he killed. Yeah. 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.960 The thing is, um, even the defense and the judge said, 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.439 you know, the whole reason that you did this was 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.320 because of your mental illness, and you this is a 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.080 perfect insanity defense. Idaho doesn't recognize the insanity defense. So 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.880 he was sentenced for to two life terms in solitary 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:02.159 confinement without parole for were the killings. Yeah, and like 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.280 everyone agreed that this guy was mentally ill. But like 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:12.240 you said, wrong state, wrong crime, and uh that's what 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.080 prompted like like you were talking about like is this 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.040 should this be a federal right? And you know, after 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:23.760 the Hinckley verdict, a lot of states repealed the insanity defense, um, 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.160 and then a lot of them went back and reinstated 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.680 it under different terms. Yeah, like Utah for example, repealed 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.160 it and then allowed it to come back. But it's 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.159 next to impossible to prove it under the definition that 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.840 that's out there. But Idaho was like, no, there's no 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.080 insanity defense. And I think there's a couple of other 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.520 states too. Well, that's all the cases I have same here. Man, 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.680 It's it's definitely I mean, it's there to help the 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.480 mentally ill. But I think you're right. For a little 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.800 while there, it was you know, plead insane, go to 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.199 a hospital, a few years, get out. Well, you know 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:06.880 what's interesting is we we talked about um, we talked 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.080 about them getting rid of the volition rule, right, but 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.760 like just quickly Lorraina Bobbitt she was basically temporarily insane 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.280 and she was acquitted of her actions assault. And the 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:21.000 Dahmer was a very famous case too. Yes, but he's 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.280 his insanity plea didn't work out because the jury believed 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.440 he knew what he was doing was wrong. Neither did 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.439 his prisons day. You know that guys, he's trying to 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.399 write a book the guy who killed him. No, I 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.800 didn't know that. Yeah. I'm kind of interested too, because 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:37.920 he always like, there's not a whole lot of information 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:43.320 on what's his name, Uh, somebody Carver, Clarence Carver. I think, no, 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.280 you're thinking of the saxophonist for the Bruce Springsteen bangand 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.359 that's Clarence Clemens. And he's passed away. His name is 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:56.800 Christopher Scarver, Clarence Carter Carver, Christopher Scarver, Clarence Clemens passed away. Yeah, man, 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:02.160 like last year. I think I didn't know that, said, um. 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:03.639 So anyway, he's trying to write a book, and I 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.480 was always curious because there's not a lot of information 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.320 like why he killed he killed those two guys that day? 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:10.920 Oh he killed someone else that day, Yeah, he killed 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:13.600 He was on bathroom duty with two other dudes, two 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.000 other murderers and another guy. And I think he got 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.359 a piece of like a metal bar from the gym 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.159 and beat them to death. And uh, he wants to 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:23.960 write a book now to like explain why he did 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.560 it and to reveal Bomber's final words, which you know, 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.159 it's very salacious. But of course I'm like, what do 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:31.600 you say, Well, I hope he does do it and 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.399 then finds out later on that you're not legally allowed 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.879 to profit from your crime. Yeah, that's true, so he 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:40.040 wouldn't be able to If you're listening to this, I 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:44.000 didn't just say that, Scarborough. I don't think he's listening. Okay. Uh, 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:46.040 people do listen to this in prison. We know that 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.320 for a fact. Yeah, he's probably making a mould wine 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:55.800 in a sock. Uh. You got anything else on mould wine? Nope? Okay. 0:22:56.200 --> 0:23:00.160 If you want to learn more about the insanity defense, um, 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.440 there's a great article on how stuff works dot Com 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.639 called ten Uses of the Insanity Defense. And there's another 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.680 one called, um, what is the definition of insanity? Right? Yeah, 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:12.439 which we'll go back. We may want to do that 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.600 one in full. We'll see if it's got more stuff 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.240 in there. Um. You can check both of those out 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:21.040 by typing insanity into search bar the search bar how 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:24.159