1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:23,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. We are two journalists from the Financial Times. We've 2 00:00:23,116 --> 00:00:26,036 Speaker 1: spent six months following the money in porn. Our aim 3 00:00:26,076 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 1: has been to find out who rules the industry. In 4 00:00:29,076 --> 00:00:31,836 Speaker 1: this episode, we bring you our encounters with some of 5 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:35,636 Speaker 1: the biggest financial companies in the world and some of 6 00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:39,316 Speaker 1: the most explicit discussions of sex in this series so far. 7 00:00:39,836 --> 00:00:43,796 Speaker 1: So please be aware this is definitely content for adults. 8 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:52,556 Speaker 1: Previously on Hot Money, a secretive former banker bought mine geek, 9 00:00:52,836 --> 00:00:56,596 Speaker 1: a giant porn company whose flagship site was driven by 10 00:00:56,756 --> 00:01:00,236 Speaker 1: user generated videos. The law allowed mine geek to take 11 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 1: a hands off approach to moderation, largely avoiding legal liability 12 00:01:04,636 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: for the content that users posted to their site. That's 13 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: pretty much all the context you need for today's show. 14 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: When we started our investigation into the adult industry, we 15 00:01:16,796 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 1: thought online porn was basically unregulated, uncontrollable in a way, 16 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:26,476 Speaker 1: just too big for any government to handle. But it 17 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:31,276 Speaker 1: turned out we were wrong, well not entirely. We just 18 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: missed a real story. Remember STORYA the performer and author 19 00:01:37,516 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: in our first episode, I'm in lagerie and people tip 20 00:01:42,116 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 1: me and I take my broth or pull the cups 21 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 1: down and I jiggle my shoulders while saying thank you. 22 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 1: Though I get my period and then I have cramps, 23 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 1: and then I really don't want to be vigorously jiggling, 24 00:01:58,436 --> 00:02:02,916 Speaker 1: but I also want people to know, like, don't tip 25 00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:07,156 Speaker 1: me and be disappointed. We are not doing vigorous behavior tonight. 26 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:11,316 Speaker 1: And you know, it would be nice to be able 27 00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:15,516 Speaker 1: to say, because I have my period, but I cannot 28 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:20,556 Speaker 1: because it is a band word. A band word. What 29 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:25,756 Speaker 1: Stayer is describing here is live video work, and it 30 00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: does sound fantastically absurd. Jiggling naked breasts for money no problem. 31 00:02:32,516 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 1: Typing the word period in the chat box absolutely forbidden. 32 00:02:37,396 --> 00:02:41,396 Speaker 1: But why what stopped Stawyer from being able to type 33 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 1: the word period into a chat box? Who or what 34 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:49,556 Speaker 1: was on the other end of that rule. The answer 35 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:53,356 Speaker 1: to that question took us to a place we never expected. 36 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 1: In this series, so far, we've told you about the 37 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:01,316 Speaker 1: secretive owners of big porn companies like mine Geek, how 38 00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: they thrived in large part because of the taboos around porn. 39 00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:09,236 Speaker 1: It gave them the cover to hide from scrutiny and accountability. 40 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: But around two years ago, Mine Geek faced a reckoning. 41 00:03:14,676 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: It was brutal, It was public, and it revealed a 42 00:03:19,156 --> 00:03:21,436 Speaker 1: whole lot of things about power and control in the 43 00:03:21,516 --> 00:03:26,516 Speaker 1: porn industry. One day in December twenty twenty, mine Geek 44 00:03:26,556 --> 00:03:29,796 Speaker 1: went from being the most powerful company in porn to 45 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:33,036 Speaker 1: a business cowering under pressure on the brink of collapse. 46 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to tell you how all 47 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:47,316 Speaker 1: of that happened, the chain of events that forced mine 48 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 1: Geek to take the majority of its pawn offline. Mine Geek, 49 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:55,676 Speaker 1: just like Stayer, had to bow to one of the 50 00:03:55,716 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 1: most powerful finance companies in the world. I'm Patrician Nelson 51 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:05,556 Speaker 1: and I'm Alex Barker and from Pushkin Industries and the 52 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 1: Financial Times. This is Hot Money Act one. Mister persistence. 53 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:48,156 Speaker 1: I think we're known to be a good investor. We're 54 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: known for not being shy, willing to kind of share 55 00:04:52,316 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 1: our views. I've been called the most persistent person in America. 56 00:04:57,676 --> 00:05:01,956 Speaker 1: I take as a compliment. That's Bill Lackman. He's a 57 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: big name in the land of the Financial Times, and 58 00:05:05,036 --> 00:05:08,556 Speaker 1: not just because he's a billionaire. He runs an investment 59 00:05:08,596 --> 00:05:12,156 Speaker 1: firm called Pershing Square, and it's one of those firms 60 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: that everybody knows about on Wall Street. Bill is not 61 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 1: an investor in Pawn. On the contrary, during the pandemic, 62 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:24,316 Speaker 1: Bill pulled off one of the most insanely successful trades 63 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: in the history of modern financial markets. He turned a 64 00:05:27,676 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 1: twenty seven million dollar bet into roughly a two point 65 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:35,676 Speaker 1: six billion dollar windfall. Yeah, as around a hundred times 66 00:05:35,676 --> 00:05:39,796 Speaker 1: the money within a few weeks. Not bad. It doesn't 67 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:43,836 Speaker 1: always go that well. He does sometimes lose two in 68 00:05:43,996 --> 00:05:48,716 Speaker 1: an almost as spectacular of fashion. Anyway. Bill first made 69 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:51,796 Speaker 1: his name as an activist investor. He didn't just buy 70 00:05:51,876 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 1: shares in a company. He bought big stakes and then 71 00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: told chief executives what to do, and occasionally he even 72 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: tried to kick them out. So when he shouts, people listen. 73 00:06:04,916 --> 00:06:08,076 Speaker 1: What made him agree to talk to us about pawn 74 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:13,036 Speaker 1: of all things? Good? Question? His communications person asked him 75 00:06:13,076 --> 00:06:15,196 Speaker 1: the same thing, said, Bill, do you want to do 76 00:06:15,236 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: this be interviewed by the ft or whatever people just 77 00:06:18,276 --> 00:06:20,356 Speaker 1: think reputationally. I don't want to have anything to do 78 00:06:20,436 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 1: with I don't want my name and the word porn 79 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:26,996 Speaker 1: in the same paragraph or story. And the problem with 80 00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:30,476 Speaker 1: that is it a lot of bad things can happen 81 00:06:30,636 --> 00:06:38,676 Speaker 1: in the underground, and those bad things he saw them 82 00:06:38,676 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: in December twenty twenty, when The New York Times published 83 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: a powerful column by Nicholas Kristoff. It was titled The 84 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:49,876 Speaker 1: Children of Pornhub. Bill was sitting at home scrolling on 85 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 1: Twitter when a story popped up. This Christoph article about 86 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: porn Hub I found very challenging to read and depressing 87 00:06:59,876 --> 00:07:03,876 Speaker 1: and also made me angry. Bill has four daughters, and 88 00:07:04,076 --> 00:07:08,956 Speaker 1: the appalling accounts of exploitation hidd a nerve Christoph basically 89 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,476 Speaker 1: pulled pawn Hubb apart. He alleged the free pawn sign 90 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:17,636 Speaker 1: was infested with rape videos, and through talking to victims, 91 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: he depicted it as a business that monetized spy cams, 92 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 1: revenge pawn, and other horrid stuff. Recent allegations claimed porn 93 00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:30,636 Speaker 1: Hub maybe profiting from footage of sexual assault, revenge porn, 94 00:07:30,796 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 1: and sex tapes obtained without consent from those embarked accused 95 00:07:35,036 --> 00:07:38,476 Speaker 1: of hosting sexual assault footage as well as child sexual 96 00:07:38,476 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 1: abuse material, doing little to guard against and remove such content. 97 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 1: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau also took notice, saying his 98 00:07:47,756 --> 00:07:51,196 Speaker 1: government was working with police and security officials to address 99 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: the issues raised in the New York Times column. Everyone 100 00:07:53,996 --> 00:07:56,916 Speaker 1: in pawn just refers to it as the Christophe piece. 101 00:07:57,356 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: It was part investigation, part opinion column, and hugely contentious 102 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 1: in the industry. Even people who hate pawn Hub saw 103 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 1: it as part of a broader war on pawn mine 104 00:08:10,276 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: geek executives. The owners of porn Hub denied wrongdoing, insisting 105 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:19,276 Speaker 1: they took a zero tolerance approach to illegal content. Pornhub 106 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:23,156 Speaker 1: told us that they now have more comprehensive safeguards than 107 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:27,276 Speaker 1: most social media platforms. Now, we're not going to get 108 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:29,876 Speaker 1: into the details of the piece or who was right 109 00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 1: or wrong. We looked at the impact instead. There's no 110 00:08:34,836 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 1: argument over that, partly because of Bill Atman. You can 111 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 1: destroy a fifteen year old and get them to commit 112 00:08:44,196 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 1: suicide by just having her boyfriend share a video she 113 00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 1: didn't want to see, an embarrasser in front of everyone. 114 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 1: People kill themselves over the kids do and the notion 115 00:08:54,836 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 1: that people are profiting from this. You know that got me. Now. 116 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: Bill is no prude. He's not a posed to pornography. 117 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: He's a free speech advocate. But he was so moved 118 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:12,356 Speaker 1: by the stories in the article that he decided to 119 00:09:12,396 --> 00:09:16,716 Speaker 1: do something. I thought this is important and the problem 120 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,756 Speaker 1: with the topic of pornography is. People don't want to 121 00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 1: acknowledge of every even viewed pornography, perhaps, and so it's 122 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:26,756 Speaker 1: just easier to just let it pass. Bill made his 123 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: name in the business of corporate influence. His whole stick 124 00:09:30,916 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: was forcing companies to do things they don't want to do, 125 00:09:34,716 --> 00:09:38,036 Speaker 1: and he comes armed with the deep contact book he'd 126 00:09:38,036 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 1: expect of an American billionaire. He's also a finance guy, 127 00:09:42,636 --> 00:09:44,836 Speaker 1: so when he read the New York Times piece, he 128 00:09:44,876 --> 00:09:47,476 Speaker 1: didn't just get angry and think what can I say 129 00:09:47,476 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 1: to make politicians do something? He thought about the way 130 00:09:50,916 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 1: to kick a company where it hurts payments. He knew 131 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 1: that vis unmaster card are the rails that any digital 132 00:10:01,036 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: business depends on to sell online. While so much online 133 00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:09,636 Speaker 1: porn is free, big porn companies rely on premium sites. 134 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: They either own them or sell ads for them. They 135 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:17,636 Speaker 1: do need people to pay for porn, and how do 136 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: they do that again credit cards without payment processing. These 137 00:10:23,596 --> 00:10:28,756 Speaker 1: aren't just porn companies. They are failing porn companies. But 138 00:10:28,796 --> 00:10:31,796 Speaker 1: he also realized there are good reasons why the payments 139 00:10:31,836 --> 00:10:35,476 Speaker 1: industry sticks with high risk sectors like porn. The more 140 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:40,116 Speaker 1: dice into transaction, the higher the scrape, meaning the fees 141 00:10:40,156 --> 00:10:43,516 Speaker 1: are higher and so the profit margins are better. There 142 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:46,676 Speaker 1: was no guarantee he could get the big payment networks 143 00:10:46,676 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 1: to do anything, so he went full actman. He didn't 144 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:55,756 Speaker 1: bother with a polite campaign or letters or whatever. He 145 00:10:55,916 --> 00:11:00,316 Speaker 1: just picked up his phone and messaged Aja Banger. Now 146 00:11:00,396 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 1: Banger was the chief executive of master Card at the time. 147 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 1: You both you're packing for tennis, and I've met him 148 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 1: and made a couple of big tennis tape and it 149 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:13,036 Speaker 1: texts this to them, and I said, a please read 150 00:11:13,076 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 1: the above piece. MasterCard is facilitating sex trafficking. PayPal is 151 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 1: already withdrawn payment processing from Pornhoub. MasterCard does not want 152 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: to be the last company to do so. Please call 153 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:27,236 Speaker 1: and discuss if you disagree, Banger replied immediately. High Bill 154 00:11:27,676 --> 00:11:32,036 Speaker 1: just saw this, he wrote, before effectively laying down the law. 155 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:36,396 Speaker 1: If the allegations were proven, Banger wrote, Pornhub would be 156 00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: blocked from using MasterCard mine Geek's top site would be 157 00:11:41,156 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 1: partly cut off from the payments world to his credit. 158 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 1: MasterCard very very quickly got on top of this and 159 00:11:48,836 --> 00:11:53,716 Speaker 1: came up with some pretty strong principles. MasterCard acted after 160 00:11:53,756 --> 00:11:57,996 Speaker 1: its investigation found unlawful content. It banned the use of 161 00:11:58,036 --> 00:12:02,236 Speaker 1: its credit cards on Pornhub's premium site. Visa followed by 162 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: suspending not just Pornhub but all of mine geek sites. 163 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:09,356 Speaker 1: It basically cut off the use of its credit cards 164 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:13,556 Speaker 1: on premium websites that generate about half of mine Geek's 165 00:12:13,596 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: revenue subscriptions that are paid for by credit cards. We 166 00:12:18,756 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 1: reached out to Visa, unmaster Card, and both the kind 167 00:12:22,276 --> 00:12:26,756 Speaker 1: to be interviewed. The company stressed that their priorities are 168 00:12:26,836 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 1: to support commerce and illegal activity, but it is fair 169 00:12:32,196 --> 00:12:36,636 Speaker 1: to say these payment networks hardly ever remove a company 170 00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: from their systems. It's a devastating move and the consequences 171 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: were immediate. You might be wondering why free porn sites 172 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 1: would crumble because Visa or MasterCard stop them accepting credit cards. 173 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:56,516 Speaker 1: On the face of it, Tube sites are mostly ad funded, 174 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 1: but they are indirectly tied to bank rules. There are 175 00:13:01,116 --> 00:13:04,596 Speaker 1: a few reasons for that. They run subscription tiers like 176 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 1: pawn Hub Premium. Some advertisers use credit cards to pay 177 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,196 Speaker 1: the Tube sites, and a lot of the Tube site 178 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:16,356 Speaker 1: ad money comes from pay sites that are covered by 179 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard. Rules, and for that reason. An industry 180 00:13:20,356 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 1: insider told us that some of pawn hubs advertisers got 181 00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: cold feet about spending money with them. The result was 182 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:33,156 Speaker 1: that pawn hubs cash flow dried up overnight. That triggered 183 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:39,436 Speaker 1: all sorts of other problems. Just imagine the conversation with 184 00:13:39,636 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: long term subscribers. You know that pawn company you signed 185 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 1: up to a few years ago, Well, we'd really like 186 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 1: you to subscribe again. You just need to go through 187 00:13:50,236 --> 00:13:53,796 Speaker 1: all the hassle once more, but this time, please use 188 00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:57,876 Speaker 1: bitcoin or some other complex banking process instead of your 189 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:02,876 Speaker 1: credit card. The MasterCard move, which was then followed by Visa, 190 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: was genuinely a watershed moment for the adult industry. Bill's 191 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 1: intervention wasn't the only reason it happened, but with that text, 192 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:14,556 Speaker 1: it's not hard to imagine he helped tip the balance. 193 00:14:15,276 --> 00:14:18,396 Speaker 1: The suspension happened very quickly, and within a couple of 194 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:21,156 Speaker 1: weeks they announced a bunch of policies. Was really quick 195 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:24,596 Speaker 1: and impressive. A few days after all of this, something 196 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 1: else huge happened to mine geek, the parent company of Pornhub. 197 00:14:28,476 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: Its lenders served at the notice of default a warning 198 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,356 Speaker 1: that mine Geek wasn't meeting the conditions of its loan. 199 00:14:36,236 --> 00:14:39,396 Speaker 1: This hasn't been reported before. We heard about it from 200 00:14:39,436 --> 00:14:42,156 Speaker 1: a different billionaire who was approached to buy the company, 201 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,236 Speaker 1: and it is confirmed and a footnote buried in mine 202 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:49,436 Speaker 1: Geek's latest accounts. The company was running short of cash, 203 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 1: its lenders weren't happy. It was on a brink of collapse. 204 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:57,316 Speaker 1: At the same time, MasterCard was reviewing its policies for 205 00:14:57,356 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 1: the whole pawn industry, including what permissions you needed to 206 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: upload any explicit video onto a site that uses credit cards, 207 00:15:06,476 --> 00:15:11,076 Speaker 1: basically all those amateur uploads that helped tube sites dominate 208 00:15:11,116 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: the pawn industry. The pressures on myne geek were building. 209 00:15:15,996 --> 00:15:19,756 Speaker 1: It had to do something, and just like that, pawn 210 00:15:19,836 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 1: Hub went from thirteen million videos down to four million. 211 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:29,076 Speaker 1: You probably were a catalyst for one of the biggest 212 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:33,836 Speaker 1: takedowns of media content off the web in the history 213 00:15:33,876 --> 00:15:36,436 Speaker 1: of the Internet. When a nine million videos ever been 214 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:39,916 Speaker 1: taken down overnight, it's pretty extraordinary. Do you remember that 215 00:15:39,956 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 1: moment and how did you feel? I felt good about it. 216 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:45,316 Speaker 1: It's not good. People want to make their livelihood the 217 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:48,196 Speaker 1: way they make their livelihood. It's their life, their body, 218 00:15:48,276 --> 00:15:52,116 Speaker 1: their choice. I'm okay with it. As long as you 219 00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 1: know they're a consenting adult, It's fine. It was pretty 220 00:15:55,876 --> 00:15:59,436 Speaker 1: interesting talking to Bill about the adult business. His game 221 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:03,036 Speaker 1: is taking the measure of a company, its strength and 222 00:16:03,076 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 1: its weaknesses, and here he was sizing up pawn. It 223 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:11,716 Speaker 1: isn't a huge industry compared with the larger world of 224 00:16:11,756 --> 00:16:16,156 Speaker 1: online entertainment. At its peak, mine Geek made around four 225 00:16:16,236 --> 00:16:19,956 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars a year in revenue. Just 226 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:24,596 Speaker 1: for perspective, Netflix generates more than four hundred and fifty 227 00:16:24,636 --> 00:16:29,036 Speaker 1: million during an average week. But online pawn can be 228 00:16:29,516 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: highly profitable, and those profits have drawn in Wall Street 229 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 1: over the years, as we've discovered in this series. To 230 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:40,276 Speaker 1: Bill Ackman, the amazing thing is not that pawn has 231 00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 1: access to finance. It's that Wall Street types got into 232 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 1: bed with companies like mine geek while averting your eyes 233 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: from potential problems, and when things went wrong, it was 234 00:16:51,876 --> 00:16:55,476 Speaker 1: left to payment companies to marp up the mess. It 235 00:16:55,596 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 1: should be regulated by state actors, you would think, right, 236 00:17:02,036 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 1: But my experience waiting around for the government to act 237 00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:13,156 Speaker 1: to clean up is painfully slow acratic. There are tens 238 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,796 Speaker 1: of millions of sex videos online hosted in dozens of countries. 239 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:20,876 Speaker 1: Unless we all take a Chinese approach to censorship, no 240 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 1: government can really police who watches it or control what 241 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 1: is made. So the nearest thing to setting global rules 242 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 1: for porn would come from mastercardam Visa, because without MasterCard 243 00:17:33,956 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: and Visa there just isn't much point in making porn 244 00:17:38,356 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 1: because no one can buy it. I think there should 245 00:17:40,436 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: be the factor of regulating these companies. Right, They're not 246 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 1: going to let you use a credit card to pay 247 00:17:45,876 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: for a hit on someone, right, That I'm sure is 248 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:52,236 Speaker 1: against their principles. Right. So once you decide that you're 249 00:17:52,236 --> 00:17:54,476 Speaker 1: going to decide what people can spend their money on 250 00:17:54,476 --> 00:17:56,876 Speaker 1: and what they can charge the master card for or 251 00:17:56,916 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 1: the Visa card, who should focus? Then they have to 252 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:03,076 Speaker 1: be the factor regulators or what's permissible content and what's not. 253 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: There was one more important thing that Bill didn't realize. 254 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: He texted the head of MasterCard he wanted MasterCard to 255 00:18:13,156 --> 00:18:16,996 Speaker 1: act like a regulator for pawn. But after we dug 256 00:18:17,036 --> 00:18:21,156 Speaker 1: into this, we found payment companies were already involved in 257 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:24,916 Speaker 1: setting the rules for this industry. They don't like admitting 258 00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 1: to this role, but banks and payment companies do have 259 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: a real say in what kind of pawn gets made 260 00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 1: and sold online act too the list. Some of you 261 00:18:44,796 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 1: may have heard about the Haze Code back in the 262 00:18:47,636 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, in the early days of Hollywood. The Haze 263 00:18:51,356 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 1: Code set the standards for what you could and couldn't 264 00:18:54,556 --> 00:19:01,596 Speaker 1: depict on screen. No lustful kissing, no nudity, no interracial relationships, 265 00:19:01,996 --> 00:19:06,236 Speaker 1: no perversion whatever that meant. It was all self policed 266 00:19:06,276 --> 00:19:10,316 Speaker 1: by the industry and amazingly held in place well into 267 00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. It all sounds so strange today, like 268 00:19:15,236 --> 00:19:19,836 Speaker 1: something from a bygone age, and what has this got 269 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:23,036 Speaker 1: to do with online pawn. Well, when we saw the 270 00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 1: power of Visa and MasterCard had over mind geek, we 271 00:19:26,916 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 1: wanted to understand how they could bring the world's biggest 272 00:19:30,476 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 1: adult company to its knees. What we discovered is that 273 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 1: the world of porn might just have its own version 274 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:42,436 Speaker 1: of the Haze Code. There's a really curious system of 275 00:19:42,516 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: rules rules on porn contents, not enforced by porn producers, 276 00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:52,756 Speaker 1: but financial gatekeepers the payments world, a world ultimately overseen 277 00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: by Visa and MasterCard. We realized this sounds odd, it 278 00:19:57,076 --> 00:20:01,396 Speaker 1: is odd, and it raised more questions than answers. I 279 00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:04,356 Speaker 1: remember the moment the door to this world was open 280 00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 1: for me. I was just chatting with an executive in 281 00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 1: the industry and she mentioned these lists basically dos and 282 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,876 Speaker 1: don't for pawn production. So I asked her to dig 283 00:20:15,916 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: one up and she shared a document of best practices, 284 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 1: all compiled by a company called Mobius Pay. Now. Mobius 285 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:29,676 Speaker 1: is a payment processing company. If you're a business that 286 00:20:29,716 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: wants to take credit cards, you need a bank to 287 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 1: sponsor you a merchant account. Mobius helps to sort that out. 288 00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: It acts as a bridge between high risk businesses like cannabis, 289 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:45,196 Speaker 1: pawn or gambling and banks in the visa and MasterCard system. 290 00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:50,996 Speaker 1: John Corona is Mobius Pay's chief operating officer, and he 291 00:20:51,076 --> 00:20:54,796 Speaker 1: put together that one page primer of things to avoid. 292 00:20:55,556 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: We asked him to read a sample of problematic words twink, nymphet, 293 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:05,036 Speaker 1: any racial slur or symbol, and team. You know these 294 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:09,956 Speaker 1: specific words tend to create problems. Problems with two where 295 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:16,476 Speaker 1: the visa and master card, the acquiring bank, and if 296 00:21:16,516 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 1: it goes far enough, ultimately law enforcement. When you sit 297 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:23,636 Speaker 1: down to create this list, you know what you based 298 00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:30,356 Speaker 1: at on the list, and the words are in the 299 00:21:30,476 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 1: interest of protecting the Visa and master Card brand reputation. 300 00:21:36,836 --> 00:21:39,116 Speaker 1: This was a lot for us to get our head around. 301 00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:42,996 Speaker 1: The more we ask people about these pawn lists, the 302 00:21:43,036 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 1: more we realize they are almost talmudic in nature. Visa 303 00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:50,916 Speaker 1: and MasterCard are at the center of this credit card world. 304 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:55,276 Speaker 1: They sit down some broad guidelines on material that might 305 00:21:55,316 --> 00:21:58,756 Speaker 1: be legal, but just as in't kosher, stuff that doesn't 306 00:21:58,756 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 1: fit with their brand and the banks some payment processors, 307 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:07,716 Speaker 1: like John at Mobia's they are expected to flesh that out. Now, 308 00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 1: they don't have much to work on, not even ten 309 00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 1: commandments they get about five. MasterCard sums it up in 310 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:18,516 Speaker 1: just one short paragraph. They are against the sale of 311 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:22,396 Speaker 1: an image or service that is patently offensive or lacks 312 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:27,516 Speaker 1: serious artistic value. They ban videos involving miners, animals, mutilation, 313 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:32,556 Speaker 1: or non consensual behavior. Now that all sounds reasonable, but 314 00:22:32,836 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 1: just to make sure they are never wrong, MasterCard also 315 00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 1: says they ban any other material that master Card might 316 00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: find unacceptable in the future. Genius people like John they 317 00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 1: need to make fine distinctions on what Visa MasterCard allow 318 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:55,436 Speaker 1: and don't allow. Write down to a twink, which means 319 00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: a slim, young looking gay man, do you have conversations 320 00:22:58,996 --> 00:23:01,276 Speaker 1: with Visan master Card? Do you? I mean, do you 321 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: have sit down with them or talk to them on 322 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: the phone. I were saying what you think about Twink? Oh? Absolutely, Yeah, 323 00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:11,196 Speaker 1: someone complains to the card brands. They take it very 324 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 1: seriously and they will review your content and if they 325 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:19,316 Speaker 1: find something they disagree with, they could terminate your account 326 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 1: effective immediately. Could you call it a type of self 327 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 1: censorship in the porn industry then, I mean you have 328 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:29,756 Speaker 1: performers who are not doing certain things, not showing certain 329 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:36,956 Speaker 1: things because you know someone might cut them off. Correct. Yeah, 330 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: it's a self censorship and self policing. Ultimately, it's if 331 00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:44,316 Speaker 1: you want to accept the sound master Card, then you 332 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 1: have to follow their rules. John explained that Visa and 333 00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,396 Speaker 1: MasterCard have had rules on what pawn can and can't 334 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: be sold online for more than a decade. It's just 335 00:23:55,876 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: that since the Christophe piece, they are all much more 336 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:04,196 Speaker 1: active in policing them. John says MasterCard has entire teams 337 00:24:04,236 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 1: devoted to this, conducting investigations and reviews. Other tech companies 338 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: are also hired to cruel websites looking for content that 339 00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:17,076 Speaker 1: breaks the rules. And here's the thing, that really blew 340 00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:22,476 Speaker 1: our mind. The lists evolve and the guidance evolves. New 341 00:24:22,516 --> 00:24:26,636 Speaker 1: words or phrases are banned all the time or unbanned, 342 00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 1: like so called golden showers, you know, being it was 343 00:24:32,556 --> 00:24:34,996 Speaker 1: off limits for a lot of banks and payment processors. 344 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:41,356 Speaker 1: Then suddenly, around twenty sixteen it became kind of okay, 345 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:45,396 Speaker 1: presumably because the term was in the news a lot 346 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: and somehow normalized. All of this implies that somewhere there 347 00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:56,716 Speaker 1: must be a decision maker, someone blesses these distinctions and 348 00:24:56,836 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 1: how they might change. They decide what is fine to 349 00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: stream and what isn't. Now that is a relatively easy 350 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:10,596 Speaker 1: distinction to make when something looks outright illegal. John actually 351 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,916 Speaker 1: conducts his own checks, and we should warn you here. 352 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:18,436 Speaker 1: We're about to hear how he has come across disturbing videos. 353 00:25:19,276 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 1: I started looking for prohibited tech content, and I searched 354 00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 1: keywords within the website. He'll type in a word like 355 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:31,756 Speaker 1: rape or underage or the countless variations of those themes. 356 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 1: I did come into a situation where it was kind 357 00:25:37,476 --> 00:25:41,196 Speaker 1: of disturbing content. I can't say it with certainty that 358 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:45,156 Speaker 1: it was pedophilia, but what I did was I screenshot 359 00:25:45,196 --> 00:25:50,756 Speaker 1: at everything brought it to my first line supervisor, and 360 00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 1: we both just file the report with the FBI. I 361 00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:57,516 Speaker 1: felt we had an ethical obligation to at least alert 362 00:25:57,596 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 1: someone in a position of authority to review what we 363 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: had seen. If John searches for a term like twink, 364 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:10,436 Speaker 1: he might need to take several steps, For example, look 365 00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:13,876 Speaker 1: at ID documents from the performer to confirm that he's 366 00:26:13,916 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: over the legal age. Racial slur we don't allow it, 367 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:21,916 Speaker 1: and I understand there are free speech concerns there, but 368 00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:24,676 Speaker 1: I would just tell them, hey, this word here, the 369 00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:26,196 Speaker 1: bank's not going to approve it. You need to change 370 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: it to something else. There are some areas where the 371 00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 1: boundary is hard. As a drawl we're betting pool, like 372 00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:37,756 Speaker 1: hypnosis or sex while someone appears to be asleep. Of 373 00:26:37,756 --> 00:26:41,356 Speaker 1: course they're acting, they're not actually asleep, and no one's 374 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: actually getting hypnotized. But being asleep means that the person 375 00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:50,676 Speaker 1: sleeping does not have the ability to render consent, and 376 00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:54,276 Speaker 1: the thought of hypnotizing someone into doing what you want 377 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:57,396 Speaker 1: them to do remove the ability to render consent, even 378 00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 1: though it's all acting, it's all fiction. Those perceptions is 379 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 1: what makes it prohibited. John talks in a pretty matter 380 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: of fact way about the details of these lists, where 381 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:10,196 Speaker 1: they draw a line and what they try to stop. 382 00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 1: But it's actually a pretty huge deal. Mobia's, the company 383 00:27:14,596 --> 00:27:18,636 Speaker 1: that John works for, essentially acts as a standard regulator 384 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:23,036 Speaker 1: for pornography, doing the work the governments aren't doing on 385 00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 1: behalf of Visa and MasterCard. It amazed us that this 386 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:30,316 Speaker 1: level of supervision exists at all, and even more so, 387 00:27:30,476 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 1: who does it. To see how much of an influence 388 00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 1: these codes really had on porn production, we went back 389 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: to somebody we trust and what they told us, well, 390 00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 1: it was a little graphic, but truly stunning. That's after 391 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 1: the break Act three, more power than the Pope. Yeah, 392 00:27:55,836 --> 00:28:01,716 Speaker 1: come on in, So thank you for letting us into 393 00:28:01,756 --> 00:28:03,556 Speaker 1: your home. It's great to see you in New York 394 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:10,396 Speaker 1: in person. And the snow is here. Brooklyn is white. 395 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:16,436 Speaker 1: We're in Story's apartment. This is where she told us 396 00:28:16,476 --> 00:28:19,756 Speaker 1: about that detail that got us going down this whole 397 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 1: path to begin with, that she can't type period in 398 00:28:23,796 --> 00:28:28,076 Speaker 1: a chat box on some pawn platforms. As a performer, 399 00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 1: she's seen a lot of different business models, from pay 400 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: sites to camsites. To create a platforms like only fans 401 00:28:36,116 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 1: They all have different characteristics, but there was always one 402 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 1: common theme, one powerful constraint on what content could be 403 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: made and sold online. She remembers Visa and Mastercard's influence 404 00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:52,716 Speaker 1: coming up way back almost fifteen years ago, right from 405 00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: the start of her career, when she was shooting for 406 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 1: a big pawn studio. I was on a porn set 407 00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:02,676 Speaker 1: for Digital Playground and someone had four fingers in me 408 00:29:03,276 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: and the director was like, watch the thumb. And I'm like, wait, 409 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 1: you can't put a thumb in and he was like no, 410 00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 1: And I'm like, what if it's just a thumb And 411 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:14,836 Speaker 1: he's like, just a thumb's fine, And I'm like, what 412 00:29:14,956 --> 00:29:18,556 Speaker 1: if it's four fingers and then another finger from the 413 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: other hand and he's like, that's fine, it's just the thumbs. 414 00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 1: The thumbs make it fisting. And I was like, this 415 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:31,956 Speaker 1: is so strange. It does sound strange. Now, this would 416 00:29:31,996 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 1: have been back into days when DVDs were being sold, 417 00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:38,796 Speaker 1: so the rules have evolved. But on stoy a set 418 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:43,796 Speaker 1: payment companies, we're basically calling the shots somehow. MasterCard and 419 00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:49,036 Speaker 1: Visa are deciding this is high risk, right, this is porn, 420 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:52,756 Speaker 1: so this is high risk. They're deciding this is this 421 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: kind of sexual act. This is acceptable, this is not acceptable. 422 00:29:57,276 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 1: So this is actually like an incredible amount of power, 423 00:30:00,076 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: more power than the Pope on this subject. Whoever, these 424 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:08,316 Speaker 1: people are at MasterCard deciding when it comes to rules. 425 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 1: I likes to understand what she's dealing with very precisely. 426 00:30:13,476 --> 00:30:15,116 Speaker 1: So at one point she got in touch with the 427 00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 1: payment company called cc Bill, which is one of the 428 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 1: biggest important What she wanted was the set of rules, 429 00:30:21,596 --> 00:30:24,956 Speaker 1: the detailed rules, the ones that precisely lay out the 430 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 1: limits of what they think MasterCard and Visa tolerate. And 431 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 1: so they shared it, all four pages of it. They 432 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,316 Speaker 1: can literally tell you on these lists what you can't 433 00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:39,476 Speaker 1: make right over, Yeah, I mean all you could make it, 434 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:44,236 Speaker 1: but you can't put it anywhere, which is akin to 435 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 1: banning it. And you know, some things should be banned, right, 436 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 1: Sexual depictions of miners that is bad. That it is 437 00:30:55,316 --> 00:30:58,316 Speaker 1: not okay. It is a problem. It should not be 438 00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 1: allowed anywhere. Bestiality again, bad problems shouldn't be allowed in full. 439 00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:11,196 Speaker 1: It's a crazy document, totally bizarre in parts, the kind 440 00:31:11,196 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 1: of thing you might expect from lawyers. Said Lose at 441 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:17,116 Speaker 1: the Fetish Convention with a mission to categorize every little kink. 442 00:31:18,076 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 1: The interesting part is the gray zone sexual activity that 443 00:31:22,276 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 1: is technically legal but in practice not tolerated. That's a 444 00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:30,516 Speaker 1: different kind of power in pawn. And what's so interesting 445 00:31:30,716 --> 00:31:33,836 Speaker 1: and so difficult to grasp is that there isn't just 446 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:37,436 Speaker 1: one set of rules, but many these are. A master 447 00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: Card don't seem to want to publish a detailed set 448 00:31:40,436 --> 00:31:44,276 Speaker 1: of rules themselves that would acknowledge that they're effectively the 449 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 1: biggest regulators of pawn, so instead they just issue deliberately 450 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:53,796 Speaker 1: vague guidelines about what fits their brand. Banks and payment 451 00:31:53,836 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 1: processes and platforms then have to interpret for their own 452 00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:01,436 Speaker 1: customers what the limits of MasterCard and Visa might be. 453 00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 1: It's like guessing the wishes of an all powerful king. 454 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 1: You only know you're wrong when you're punished. And like 455 00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 1: all efforts to codify and regulate human behavior, the rules 456 00:32:15,116 --> 00:32:19,516 Speaker 1: can get weirdly precise. Where do you draw the line? 457 00:32:20,316 --> 00:32:27,996 Speaker 1: Like how many slaps before we consider it a spanking 458 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: instead of an ass slap? How many bursts of fluid 459 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:41,796 Speaker 1: before we decide what we're seeing is not female ejaculation 460 00:32:42,436 --> 00:32:46,156 Speaker 1: is urine? I mean, you can laugh about some of this. 461 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:50,636 Speaker 1: There is would you believe a code about furry costumes? 462 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:55,516 Speaker 1: Two people in furrey costumes having sex, that's okay. But 463 00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:58,236 Speaker 1: if one of them is half man, half beast or 464 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:02,636 Speaker 1: in human form, No, No, too close to beastiality. One 465 00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 1: platform worried about bestiality band animals even straying into the shot. 466 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:14,556 Speaker 1: How close can a cat be before it is considered 467 00:33:15,076 --> 00:33:20,316 Speaker 1: an inappropriate distance? Anyone who has lived with a cat 468 00:33:21,516 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 1: knows like filming, unless there is a room that you 469 00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 1: can shut a cat in, filming anything without intrusion by 470 00:33:30,436 --> 00:33:35,996 Speaker 1: a house cat is very difficult. Then there was the 471 00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:40,676 Speaker 1: question of blood. These are a master card to clear violence, mutilation. 472 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 1: Those are not things they abide in pawn. But if 473 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 1: you break that down, things start to get complicated. What 474 00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:52,476 Speaker 1: about pawn stars dressed as vampires devouring ketchup blood? Is 475 00:33:52,516 --> 00:33:57,476 Speaker 1: that allowed? Well, try to find that online on the internet. 476 00:33:57,996 --> 00:34:01,796 Speaker 1: Vampire pawn with fake or real blood is like a 477 00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 1: forbidden good. And of course not all blood comes from violence, 478 00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:12,076 Speaker 1: because they have a uterus. And I'm thirty five, and 479 00:34:12,676 --> 00:34:19,876 Speaker 1: I get my period somewhere between every twenty and thirty 480 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:26,476 Speaker 1: one days, and so sometimes there is blood in my 481 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:29,836 Speaker 1: vagina and you can see it in the vulva, and 482 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:38,956 Speaker 1: that cannot be portrayed in a commercial sex video. And 483 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:45,596 Speaker 1: I feel that menstruation is completely natural, and I also 484 00:34:46,076 --> 00:34:51,196 Speaker 1: use my vagina for work. Someone at Visa or MasterCard 485 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:58,796 Speaker 1: finds this completely natural biological process to be unacceptable, And 486 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:03,876 Speaker 1: then we're raising people who are becoming sexual in a 487 00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:09,716 Speaker 1: culture where menstruation is completely erased. Whoever is the arbiter 488 00:35:10,636 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 1: of what can be done with sexual media and sexual performance? 489 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:18,636 Speaker 1: Like I have no idea who they are? Did they 490 00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 1: take a philosophy class? Like are do they have a 491 00:35:22,276 --> 00:35:30,356 Speaker 1: degree in women's studies? When we set out to find 492 00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:34,316 Speaker 1: who rules online porn, we did not expect to be 493 00:35:34,356 --> 00:35:39,476 Speaker 1: confronted with such a thought experiment. A porn star wondering 494 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:44,236 Speaker 1: who actually regulates the site of certain bodily functions. But 495 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:48,436 Speaker 1: here we are, like a lot of credit card customers, 496 00:35:48,596 --> 00:35:54,396 Speaker 1: staring at the fine print and still confused. Do payment 497 00:35:54,476 --> 00:35:59,236 Speaker 1: companies control porn in a way? They have a huge influence? 498 00:35:59,876 --> 00:36:04,636 Speaker 1: But we sensed that wasn't the full story. For that 499 00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:08,516 Speaker 1: we needed to keep digging. We still wanted to figure 500 00:36:08,516 --> 00:36:22,036 Speaker 1: out how these payment companies actually use their power. Coming 501 00:36:22,116 --> 00:36:25,236 Speaker 1: up on Hot Money, We want to introduce you to 502 00:36:25,316 --> 00:36:28,836 Speaker 1: a man with the world's most popular pawn site, a 503 00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:33,716 Speaker 1: site with double the page views of porn Hub, running 504 00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:40,996 Speaker 1: out of a throwback Soviet block apartment building in Prague. 505 00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:44,916 Speaker 1: I mean they're still operating as if they were a 506 00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:49,036 Speaker 1: shadow company. It's one of the top ten websites in 507 00:36:49,076 --> 00:36:52,636 Speaker 1: the world. And when porn Hub took down nine million 508 00:36:52,756 --> 00:36:56,996 Speaker 1: videos because they upset Visa and MasterCard, this guy, well, 509 00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:13,596 Speaker 1: he still has nine million videos up. Hot Money is 510 00:37:13,636 --> 00:37:16,836 Speaker 1: a production of The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It 511 00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:19,796 Speaker 1: was written and reported by me Patricia Nilsen and me 512 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:24,796 Speaker 1: Alex Barker. Peter Sale is our lead producer and sound designer. 513 00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:29,436 Speaker 1: Edith Russolo is our associate producer. Our editor is Karen 514 00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:34,796 Speaker 1: Shakerjie Amanda ka Wong is our engineer. Music composition by 515 00:37:34,916 --> 00:37:40,556 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise, fact checking by Andrea Lopez Kusado. Our executive 516 00:37:40,556 --> 00:37:44,836 Speaker 1: producers are Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein. Special thanks to 517 00:37:44,916 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 1: Renee Kaplan and Ruler Kalov at The Financial Times and 518 00:37:48,196 --> 00:37:53,596 Speaker 1: Mia Lobel, lital Molad, Justine Lang, Julia Barton and Jacob 519 00:37:53,636 --> 00:37:57,636 Speaker 1: Weisberg at Pushkin Industries. Thank you to similar Web for 520 00:37:57,876 --> 00:38:01,676 Speaker 1: providing our web traffic data. If you want more from 521 00:38:01,676 --> 00:38:05,836 Speaker 1: the FT, try our new app featuring eight essential stories 522 00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 1: every weekday. Search FT Edit in the iPhone app store. 523 00:38:10,676 --> 00:38:13,676 Speaker 1: Your first month is free, and it's ninety nine cents 524 00:38:13,676 --> 00:38:15,836 Speaker 1: a month for six months after that.