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Speaker 1: This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When

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Speaker 1: I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds,

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Speaker 1: no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer,

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Speaker 1: no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. That's f I R S T

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Speaker 1: L I T E dot com. Okay, everybody, we're joined

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Speaker 1: today by author James mccommons. We're gonna talk about how

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Speaker 1: America uh nearly wiped itself out of dozens of species

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Speaker 1: of birds during the during what we can think of

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Speaker 1: as the dark days of American conservation, lost several of

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Speaker 1: those birds to extinction, and then brought a great many

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Speaker 1: of them back from the brink of extinction. The name

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Speaker 1: of the name of his book is The Feather Wars

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Speaker 1: and the Great Crusade to Save America's Birds. James mccommons

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Speaker 1: is an emeritus does emeredis when you're an emeritus professor.

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Speaker 1: That means you're a former professor, right but in good standing.

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Speaker 2: But in good standing, So what.

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Speaker 1: Would you do, like give me something you would do

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Speaker 1: to not be just to be able to be that

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Speaker 1: you were a former professor, not an emeritus professor.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have to ask for it first, and you yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have to ask for it, ask to go through

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Speaker 2: a committee and before they granted to you.

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Speaker 1: Oh so it's like a gift.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, it's an honor.

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Speaker 1: It's an honor to be an emeritus professor.

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Speaker 2: Right and then oftentimes, particularly at a research based institution,

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Speaker 2: you get to keep your office, you know, you get

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Speaker 2: to keep a lot of the grad students and you

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Speaker 2: get to continue your work.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, all right, and then sometimes you see professor emeritus.

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Speaker 1: Well I don't know, you don't know about that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: either way, he's an emeritus professor at get This, Northern

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Speaker 1: Michigan University and Marquette where he taught journalism, journalism and

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Speaker 1: nature writing for twenty years. What's Robert Traver. He's kind

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Speaker 1: of a big deal up there.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely so, yeah, we would be

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Speaker 2: anat and all that marr anatomy of a murder is

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Speaker 2: very important to the community, is sure. But we have

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Speaker 2: Jim Harrison, which I think you had a show about.

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Speaker 2: So without a doubt, and and then you know some

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Speaker 2: other writers that we would go off and do field

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Speaker 2: trips on in this book. George Shiris is in this

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Speaker 2: book he was a world's first wildlife photographer. We would

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Speaker 2: go out to where his first wildlife photographs were taken

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Speaker 2: and read some of Georgia's stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, you know, years ago I was working on

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Speaker 1: a I was researching a book that I never wrote

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Speaker 1: about the Great Lakes, and I was hanging out at

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Speaker 1: Lake Independence there. Yeah, and it was like the whole

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Speaker 1: you know, like the the anatomy of a murder, murder.

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Speaker 1: The couple was camped there, yeah, the guy was like

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Speaker 1: a military guy involved with putting some kind of equipment

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Speaker 1: in there. And then the wife like, depending on who

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Speaker 1: you asked, there was like a bear hanging around the campground.

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Speaker 1: She goes down to the local bar, runs into some

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Speaker 1: guys in the local bar or whatever. The guy comes

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Speaker 1: and kills a dude in the bar. And I went

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Speaker 1: in there and I had heard all you can still

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Speaker 1: see a bullet hole in the wall, yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: went and asked the Bartender'm like, hey man, is there

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Speaker 1: really a bullet hole in here? From like the whole

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Speaker 1: anatomy of a murder thing. And he goes, the reason

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Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, He says, where everybody thinks there's

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Speaker 1: a bullet hole, the bar wasn't at that wall. Back then,

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Speaker 1: he goes, back then the bar was over on that wall.

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Speaker 1: So he goes, it doesn't make sense to me that

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Speaker 1: the bullet hole. You know he's over there. Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: familiar with all this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, ye, I've been in the Lumberjack Cafe.

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Speaker 1: Was that what?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his stuff's cool, man, Like, you know, his writing

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Speaker 1: about all all the fish and stuff and the fishing

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Speaker 1: quotes and all that. And when they made the movie

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Speaker 1: with uh tell us his name the same dude from

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Speaker 1: Its Wonderful Life, Jim Jimmy Stewart Stewart right right, Like

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Speaker 1: he's always run around trout rolled up.

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Speaker 2: And and he's tying flies in the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's always like he comes down with trout

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in his newspaper. That's good stuff, man, that's

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Speaker 1: good stuff. Yeah. There's there's kind of like a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a literary you know, there's like a literary

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Speaker 1: aspect to that town.

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Speaker 2: You know, absolutely, Yeah, Robert Drivers going to rout some

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Speaker 2: pretty profound things about you know, wanting to be in

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Speaker 2: the environs of where trout lived. And that's how important

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Speaker 2: that was too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he had cool fishing quotes. He had cool fishing

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Speaker 1: quotes that still stand today.

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Speaker 2: They do.

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Speaker 1: They're good fishing quotes. So what what got you into?

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Speaker 1: What got you into the bird story?

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Speaker 2: So you know, George Shiris is in this book, and.

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Speaker 1: George, so I want to point out the listeners. Sure

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Speaker 1: the way with the taxonomy of moose, right, yeah, the giants,

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Speaker 1: you have the Yukon moose, and then in the Rockies

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Speaker 1: there's other ones. Just like some people argue there's a

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Speaker 1: new Finland moose in the Rockies. Are moose here Colorado, Montana, Idaho,

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Speaker 1: Washington and elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: That is the Shyris Shyris moose.

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Speaker 1: Also, that's right, but that's the dude, right, it is Okay, it.

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Speaker 2: Is yeah, you know, on one of his expeditions. So

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Speaker 2: he was the world's first wildlife photographer. He was taking

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Speaker 2: pictures in the eighteen eighties eight nineties before anyone else.

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Speaker 2: He was a lawyer from Pittsburgh whose family would come

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Speaker 2: to the Upper Peninsula to summer and starting off with

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Speaker 2: his grandfather and Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 1: But they would go to Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because Pittsburgh was known back then as the Hell

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Speaker 2: Hell with the lidoff, the you know, the it was.

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Speaker 2: It was a nasty place to see. It was industrial, yeah,

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Speaker 2: in the eighteen eighties, without a doubt, And and so

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Speaker 2: a lot of the well known and wealthy families in

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Speaker 2: Pittsburgh would go someplace to spend summer. And the Shyrises

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Speaker 2: were trout fishermen, and his father first started going up

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Speaker 2: to the Upper Peninsula very early on, like eighteen thirties,

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Speaker 2: and then the family started to go up. They established

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Speaker 2: a relationship with some folks around Marquette and they got

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Speaker 2: a camp not too far from Marquet and that's where George,

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Speaker 2: who was a lawyer, first started experimenting with taking pictures

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Speaker 2: of animals at night. And yeah, so he would he

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Speaker 2: would go out on Whitefish Lake.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a whole book about this.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I did tell people that book, and that is.

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Speaker 2: How I got interested. But he would go out on

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Speaker 2: Whitefish Lake and he had a chemical flash that he

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Speaker 2: would hold up. They would listen for deer coming down

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Speaker 2: to the shore, and then they would jacklight the deer

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Speaker 2: and then they would push in slowly with the boat.

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Speaker 2: George would stand up with this chemical flash take the picture.

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Speaker 2: Took him three years to get an image, but he

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Speaker 2: took a lot of images at night. And then the

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Speaker 2: other thing he was get.

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Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the pictures. I had no idea that

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Speaker 1: that's why they look so strange.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were called the Midnight Series of pictures. And

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Speaker 2: then so he had a chemical chemical flash. And then

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Speaker 2: what he found out was that he could put a

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Speaker 2: trip wire up, set these things at night and then

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Speaker 2: put them on trails and the deer would trip him.

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Speaker 2: And so he got pictures of deer, but also pictures

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Speaker 2: of birds and other animals.

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Speaker 1: He was like, he's running trail cameras.

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Speaker 2: He's the inventor of the trail camera. Without a doubt.

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Speaker 2: He was the one he put it. He took a

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Speaker 2: patent out on that device, but it was never really

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Speaker 2: practical for anybody else to use it. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: that's where I got interested in writing this book. Was

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Speaker 2: I had done a story on or this book on

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Speaker 2: George Shiris. And the third thing Shyris was he was

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Speaker 2: a congressman for two years from Pennsylvania and he introduced

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Speaker 2: the Shiris bird Bill in nineteen oh four, which was

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Speaker 2: the forerunner of the Migratory Bird Act in the Migratory

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Speaker 2: Bird Treaty. Well, I didn't all that, yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: that's that was where I thought there's a bigger story

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Speaker 2: to this. And then when I was writing that book

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Speaker 2: it's called Camera Hunter, I really had to learn a

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Speaker 2: lot about that period of the twentieth century, in late

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century, and who all these people were. Many of

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Speaker 2: the characters in this book were friends as Shiriuses, including

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Speaker 2: Theodore Roosevelt. And and then so that's how this book

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Speaker 2: came about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you know, you start thinking about a book

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Speaker 1: like that, like I'm kind of I'm working on a

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Speaker 1: project where I'm kind of in the phase right now

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Speaker 1: of you might you know what you're gonna do. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know you're going to do something like whatever some

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Speaker 1: you know, you know kind of like, well, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do a thing about the blank. But then you get

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Speaker 1: into that phase where you're like, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have to the themes of it. You know, you start

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Speaker 1: the ideas, start taking shit, you have the umbrella. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but then lady, you realize that man there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a lot about this or a lot about that,

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Speaker 1: or I imagine the takeaway, like the takeaway is going

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Speaker 1: to be this. When you start thinking about the story

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Speaker 1: of birds in America, particularly the ones that we hunted

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Speaker 1: to extirpation, near extinction, extinction, what emerged in your mind

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Speaker 1: as kind of like the takeaway for people, or like

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Speaker 1: what is the thing that if you were you think

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Speaker 1: in your head, like if I don't achieve that for

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Speaker 1: the reader, I will have failed.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think at this point shiras when I got

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Speaker 2: interested in doing it. The Shiris came from this point

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Speaker 2: of view as a hunter. He was a deer hunter

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Speaker 2: and his first bill was only to protect certain birds

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Speaker 2: game birds at that time. And then later what happened

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Speaker 2: was with the Migratroy Bird Act, they expanded that to

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Speaker 2: all birds. So I was looking for or a way

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Speaker 2: to tell the story how Audubon, the audobonn Society, the

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Speaker 2: folks who are professional ornithologists, and the hunters all came

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Speaker 2: together to make this happen, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 2: explore more of that story. And so that was part

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Speaker 2: of it. And like anything you say when you when

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Speaker 2: you first write your book proposal, which you're pitching to

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Speaker 2: your publishers. I want to write this book. You know

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Speaker 2: it's not going to be exactly the same.

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Speaker 1: When you're done it, they be kind of the same.

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Speaker 2: It may not be you don't know where you're going

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Speaker 2: to go yet because you haven't done the research.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say it's not gonna be kind of the same.

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Speaker 1: But no, no.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, but you know they want a table of contents,

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Speaker 2: they want all these things, and I understand that.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm not hacking on for want. And it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a game. Everybody knows. It's like it's

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Speaker 1: a dance you do. But do you know you know

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Speaker 1: the writer Ian Fraser, Sure, Okay, he's on the show,

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Speaker 1: and he mentored me when I was young. I remember

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Speaker 1: him telling me he said, if I ever had to

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Speaker 1: write a book proposal, the first thing I'd do is

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Speaker 1: throw it away.

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Speaker 2: It would be great to get to the point you

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Speaker 2: don't have to write a book proposal.

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Speaker 1: That's where he was, and because he's like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what the book's gonna be about.

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Speaker 2: Right right, and so that would you know? This one

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Speaker 2: was was I just started hitting the road, hitting archives,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, see where it went.

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Speaker 1: You started out and doing archive work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, and and to tell the story, one

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Speaker 2: of the interesting stories in here is how after the

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Speaker 2: Migratory Bird Treaty was okayed by Congress, there was going

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Speaker 2: to be a test case that literally somebody was going

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Speaker 2: to go out and violate it, and then that would

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Speaker 2: go up through the courts to make sure that it

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Speaker 2: was a constitutional law. And in this case, it was

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Speaker 2: the Attorney General of Missouri who was a duck hunter

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Speaker 2: name his name was Frank McAllister, and that he was

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Speaker 2: telling everybody in Missouri like, ignore the law. Spring hunting

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Speaker 2: is okay, everybody should go spring hunting. And I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go spring hunting.

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Speaker 1: And I got yeah, backup, because I got confused. Sure,

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Speaker 1: you mean they just knew that someone would, not that

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Speaker 1: they planned that someone would. So they knew that there

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Speaker 1: would be a violator, or they were planning a violator.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was kind of a It was kind of

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Speaker 2: both in the sense that Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, and and

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Speaker 2: so that part of the Mississippi Missouri area, these folks

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Speaker 2: were deadly against the migratory bird trape.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I thought you meant they were putting. They were like, okay, Bob,

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Speaker 1: you go break the law so we can test this

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Speaker 1: in the court.

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Speaker 2: In one instance that happened before this. Okay, yeah, the

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Speaker 2: Weeks McLean Act was tested like that. But anyway, when

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Speaker 2: the when the migatry Bird Treaty happened, these states were

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Speaker 2: still not happy with it, and they were saying that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we still own the birds. The federal government

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Speaker 2: has nothing to do with this. They can't tell us

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Speaker 2: what to do. We're going to have a spring shooting season.

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Speaker 2: And Frank McAllister, the Attorney General, said the same thing.

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Speaker 2: The young game warden, federal game warden who covered seven states.

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Speaker 2: His name was Ray Holland. Ray Holland said I'm going

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Speaker 2: to bag them the attorney general, and so he sort

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Speaker 2: of followed him. The Attorney General went to a duck

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Speaker 2: club in Nevaden, Missouri, and shot over one hundred ducks.

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Speaker 2: Holland got himself onto the property and was able to

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Speaker 2: arrest the attorney general. The Attorney General was fined for

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Speaker 2: shooting these ducks, and then the case went all the

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Speaker 2: way up to the Supreme Court. Or the attorney general

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Speaker 2: actually argued his own case in front seriously and yeah,

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Speaker 2: in front of the US Supreme Court and lost. And

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Speaker 2: that was the test case for the Migratory Bird Treaty.

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Speaker 1: And they held that it was sound law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was sound law. It was his argument was

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Speaker 2: that the states, and this was the argument previously up

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Speaker 2: to this time, all through like you know, the twenty

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Speaker 2: or thirty years prior, was that birds belonging to the states,

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Speaker 2: all wildlife was was owned by the states and the

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Speaker 2: federal government had no jurisdiction. And what this movement was

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Speaker 2: about with was for the federal government to take jurisdiction

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Speaker 2: over birds. Birds were public trust. Migratory birds moved from

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Speaker 2: state to state that each state having its own laws,

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Speaker 2: its own bag limits. When you know birds were going

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Speaker 2: to be shot what seasons didn't make any sense biologically

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Speaker 2: with their nest in migratory patterns. So slowly but surely

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Speaker 2: the Feds moved in to take jurisdiction over those birds,

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Speaker 2: and it culminated in the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that was a great story. And I had just

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Speaker 2: heard a little bit of that when I wrote the

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Speaker 2: George Shier's book, and I thought I'll start there. So

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Speaker 2: that's where I started the book, was I want to

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Speaker 2: go find out more about Frank Holland or Ray Holland

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Speaker 2: arresting the Attorney General. And I found his papers in

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Speaker 2: Connecticut in a college in Connecticut, and there was an

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Speaker 2: unfinished book biography that it was a finished biography that

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Speaker 2: he wasn't able to get published. And I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be two or three chapters in there

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Speaker 2: about this great thing he did back then, and there was.

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Speaker 2: And so this kind of wonderful anecdote that goes on

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Speaker 2: for ten pages in this book about how these guys

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Speaker 2: arrested the Attorney General came from that got it? Yeah, yeah, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, people like like a lot of people in our audience,

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Speaker 1: our audience are pretty familiar with the commercial duck hunting era. Like,

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Speaker 1: for instance, right outside the door here we have a

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you notice coming in, we have

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Speaker 1: a big punt gun.

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Speaker 2: Oh I didn't see that.

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Speaker 1: No, we have a Holland and Holland London made punt gun,

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Speaker 1: like a commercial duck hunting gun.

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Speaker 2: So that was made in England.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you know it's funny. It's got the address

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Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, on the top of the barrel. Painted

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Speaker 1: over in some kind of gun metal, uh, like some

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Speaker 1: kind of like a paint. You used a paint like

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Speaker 1: a like a like a cannon on a boat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but then the action is very ornate and fine, you know.

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Speaker 1: But if you look, if you can kind of like

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Speaker 1: look through that paint, you can see that there's an

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Speaker 1: address from Holland and Holland we made a big punt

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Speaker 1: gun shooting video that we haven't finished yet. But anyways,

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Speaker 1: just in conversations we've had on the show, we've talked

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Speaker 1: about commercial duck hunting, and I don't want to leave

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Speaker 1: that out of our conversation. But the thing we haven't

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Speaker 1: touched on too much is that what we now regard

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Speaker 1: of as songbirds, right, that these at a time were

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Speaker 1: like a heavily exploited bird.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I always joke about and like my father's bird taxonomy.

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Speaker 1: He knew game birds, he was a duck hunter, he

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Speaker 1: hunted upland birds. He knew his game birds. He knew

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Speaker 1: two or three other birds, robins, blue jays, chickadeas crows.

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Speaker 1: But most birds he saw were tweety birds, and they

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Speaker 1: were like, that's what they were, and they were not

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Speaker 1: of interest, not of a trendous interest, right, because he

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Speaker 1: had that. He had that and I'm not evening, but

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Speaker 1: he had that like hunter's value system of these are

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Speaker 1: the birds that are important are Yeah, these are the

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Speaker 1: birds that I'm interested in. These are the birds that

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Speaker 1: we pay attention to. These are the birds that have regulations.

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Speaker 1: These are the birds we eat, right, and a couple

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Speaker 1: other common ones. Butternut he was more like, nah, it's

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Speaker 1: a tweety bird. But at a time like tweety birds.

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Speaker 2: And back then they called them dicky birds.

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Speaker 1: But at a time, man, there were people like hunting

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Speaker 1: these things. They were, Yeah, tell people about sort of

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Speaker 1: the extent of that, and and who and what and

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Speaker 1: why was going on.

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Speaker 2: So Robin's, particularly in the south, when when Robin's goes

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Speaker 2: south into winter, they they flock up, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of farmers would would catch those birds and nuts and

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Speaker 2: they would feed them to their hawks.

347
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Speaker 1: That was.

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Speaker 2: But people also ate robin pie and and so yeah,

349
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Speaker 2: without a doubt, flickers were eating and many woodpeckers as well.

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Speaker 2: What I talk about in this book is how immigrants

351
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Speaker 2: came from southern Europe, parts of Italy and from Eastern

352
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Speaker 2: Europe who had a tradition of eating small birds. And

353
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Speaker 2: so when they came to America, particularly like in you know,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ten, nineteen hundred, they were hunting small birds partly

355
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Speaker 2: because they were poor and this was a way to

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Speaker 2: put protein in the pot. And so there was there's

357
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Speaker 2: an incident that I write about in Pennsylvania where a

358
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Speaker 2: lot of these landowners in these farmers just hated the

359
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 2: idea that these foreigners were coming out from Pittsburgh on

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Speaker 2: the trains and going on their land and hunting small birds.

361
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Speaker 2: But yeah, with a shotgun, shotgun, yeah, and anything else, woodshock,

362
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Speaker 2: whatever it took. I mean, it was just getting meat

363
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Speaker 2: and you know, taking meat back.

364
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Speaker 1: And but there's a one of my colleagues that I

365
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Speaker 1: worked with on our cook We have a couple of cookbooks,

366
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Speaker 1: and I worked with a woman named Christy Ruwaine. She

367
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Speaker 1: has Italian as do I. She has Italian ancestors on

368
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Speaker 1: the side of her family, and she talks about I

369
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: don't want to get the guy in trouble. She talks

370
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Speaker 1: about her grandfather, like she remembers that her grandfather still

371
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Speaker 1: putting him in, you know, putting him putting songbirds, whatever

372
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Speaker 1: he could get his hands on, putting him into his

373
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Speaker 1: sauces and he just cook him down and shred them

374
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Speaker 1: and be like any other meat you could throw in there,

375
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Speaker 1: but in the pot could be like little just things

376
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Speaker 1: he kind of got out of his yard or whatever,

377
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Speaker 1: and it was just like a food item.

378
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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And you could put him on

379
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Speaker 2: a spit. You could put some bread on him, some pork,

380
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,719
Speaker 2: and you know, you could do it that way.

381
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Speaker 1: And were but like that kind of I want to

382
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Speaker 1: talk about the I want to talk like the commercial

383
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: restaurant trade and the feather trade. Just to wrap up

384
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Speaker 1: on the songbird thing. Was there ever were they able

385
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Speaker 1: to have population level impacts like take robins? Would that

386
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: type of harvest? Was it able to have a population

387
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Speaker 1: level impact, like did we ever see robin numbers decline

388
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Speaker 1: to a dangerous level?

389
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Speaker 2: Well, I think robin numbers did decline generally, but on

390
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: a on a localized level, yes, without a doubt, particularly

391
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Speaker 2: like in the South in Louisiana, there were you know,

392
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Speaker 2: tens of thousands of robins that were killed and people

393
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Speaker 2: I've got a little anecdote in the book where people were,

394
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: you know, killing these birds and then bringing it bringing

395
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: them in a new Iberia on a string and selling

396
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 2: them for you know, twenty five cents or fifty cents

397
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Speaker 2: a string. Ok So it was, it was it was

398
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: kind of an annual thing to be able to buy

399
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: robbins on the street at that time.

400
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Speaker 1: Okay, talk about the the feather trade, because this is

401
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: the thing like people can picture, like a lot of

402
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: people can picture that. When people don't have a lot

403
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: of money, a lot of other game isn't around. You know,

404
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: we didn't have a lot of the times we're talking about,

405
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: deer numbers had already been depleted, even going back to

406
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: the mid seventeen hundreds, you know, so when you get

407
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, you get into the late eighteen hundreds,

408
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: there's not as much game around. People want to hunt,

409
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: they're hunting birds, but the feather trade is not personal use.

410
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: The feather trade isn't going out and getting some grub

411
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: for yourself. The feather trade is like this business.

412
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I think you know, people always hunted

413
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 2: for feathers for stuffing, you know, mattresses, feather fans like

414
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: face fans. But it was around the eighteen seventies eighteen

415
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: eighties where this fashion trend started of having bird feathers

416
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, in your hat, in women's hats, and that

417
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: grew fairly quickly that it was everyone needed to have these,

418
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: you know, these these bird hats as they called them.

419
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: They called them, yeah, yeah, there were names for bird yeah,

420
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: bird hats.

421
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: You'd be like, I'm going to go to the store

422
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: and get my mom a bird hat.

423
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: You can get a bird hat. Or there was one

424
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: called the three story, which was a very tall hat

425
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: and very wide one.

426
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Speaker 1: As well, all loaded with feathers, all.

427
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: Loaded with feathers. Right. In fact, these things kind of

428
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: became as time went on through the eighteen eighties and

429
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: eighteen nineties, as the designers competed with one another, these

430
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: hats became more ostentatious. They had to try to outdo

431
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: one another, so they got bigger. And then usn't just feathers.

432
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: They were putting taxidermy birds on their heads, and so

433
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: it wasn't unusual to see three or four birds arranged

434
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: with maybe some natural materials that would show the bird,

435
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: you know, So it's like wearable taxidermy.

436
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: It kind of ties into this, like you tell that

437
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: that's sort of arms race, not arms race, but I

438
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: remember I can't remember who, but someone was observing how

439
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: fashion always becomes self parody, meaning someone will make a

440
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: wide leg gene and then they're like, oh, yeah, you

441
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: think that's wide, I mean, or like, oh, a little

442
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 1: hole in your genes is cool. How about I remove

443
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: the entire front of my genes, you know. And that's

444
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: how like fashion goes to self parody and then the

445
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: thing vanishes. So it's funny to think of feathers being like, oh,

446
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: you think a few feathers are cool, right, well, here's

447
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: a bird.

448
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: Right, here's the It's exactly what happened, and they got

449
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: more oscentatious. Sometimes they were really close fitting hats, almost

450
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: like a close hat, and they were all feathers, and

451
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: then each time a new season happened, you would have

452
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: to get a new feathered hat. So I mean, we're

453
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: talking about sort of Victorian fashions, very long dresses, bustles,

454
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: you know, lots of petticoats, and women had a lot

455
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: of clothing on and then it was often topped off

456
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: by these big hats. And I talked about how some

457
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: women could not I would have to put their head

458
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 2: out the window in order to ride on a street

459
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: car or in a a coach because their hat was

460
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 2: so big it would not fit inside?

461
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: Was there like if you picture for to be that

462
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: you know at a time, like you go back to

463
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: the fifties or whatever, like a like a mink fur

464
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: that was good. Yeah, if you had a muskrat fur,

465
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: if you had a possum fur, not as good, but

466
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: a mink fur was the ship.

467
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: Yep.

468
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: Did consumers have a notion of what when? When feathers

469
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: were the rage? Did consumers have a notion of what

470
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: feathers they wore? Meaning was there was there were they

471
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: aware of that this is a very rare feather or

472
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: that this is sort of an exclusive feather.

473
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: So the breeding feather, the most popular feathers were many

474
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: of like the Florida Florida wading birds, egrets and the

475
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: snowy egret especially was its breeding feather the air grat.

476
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: I think it's how you pronounce it.

477
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: That's the feather.

478
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's this long breeding feather that the bird gets,

479
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 2: and that was it was quite more than once that

480
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: it was worth more than its weight in gold. Didn't

481
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: weigh much of course.

482
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you see exactly, but.

483
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: But it was a beautiful white feather and so those

484
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: were really popular and and the plume hunters absolutely went

485
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: after those birds because yeah, snowy egrets and and then

486
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: the roseate spoonbill was was very popular and that was

487
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: often for face fans. They were very pretty, of course,

488
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: so yeah, there was some pecking order. The one of

489
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: the famous things that.

490
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: That was a good pund right there. Did you know?

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: Did you know? Or you just do it on? I

492
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: just did it, Phil, You catch that? It was great?

493
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: You caught it. I catch it before I pointed it out.

494
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: No I didn't. That was just you, Steve. Congratulations the

495
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: h do you know, homut can? Do you know about

496
00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: the great Isbel pun controversy? I I remember hearing about it.

497
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: I do not remember the details, though, how they made

498
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: a pun and that they insisted that they did it

499
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: on purpose. But you think that men tell our guest, Okay,

500
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm eating with some friends and we're at this place

501
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: and they bring a caviar dish out. One of my

502
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: friends winds up with a caviar egg stuck right here

503
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: on his lip. Okay, And he says Marilyn Monroe and

504
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: then goes ha, okay, and he claims he knew all

505
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: along and made the row joke to us view. We

506
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: felt there was a delay and that it occurred to

507
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: him that he had.

508
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: Made after he knew that this was on his lip.

509
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: Like he was just going on the fact. No. No, someone said, hey,

510
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: you got a piece of egg right here, and he says, oh,

511
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: you know marily Monroe ha, meaning row fish egg. So

512
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, no, even when I said Marilyn Monroe,

513
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: I knew I was making a row joke. Other people

514
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: at the table felt that there was a delay, and

515
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: you could see him realize after saying it, how spot

516
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: on it was Marilyn Monroe. We never could settle it.

517
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: We consider trying to get security camera footage from the restaurant. Yeah,

518
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: to see the look in his eye when he realized

519
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: do you follow me right that he made a yeah.

520
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: He claims to this day that he did it on purpose.

521
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: Either way, the pecking order, did you lose your train

522
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: of thought?

523
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: I used to have an editor who would tell me

524
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: puns all the time, and then I would tell him

525
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: to shut up, and he would say, we have a

526
00:30:58,680 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: lot of pun around here.

527
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna take you that far. So order

528
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: the birds.

529
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: Well, and so what Frank Chapman was a banker, and

530
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: he was a famous ornithologist, and Chapman wrote Perforce and

531
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: Stream magazine. He later became uh the curator of birds

532
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: at the American Museum of Natural History. Yeah, he'd done

533
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: all kinds of things later in his career, but early

534
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: in his career when he was a banker and these

535
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: feathers were appearing on women's hats, he went down and

536
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: did with what is known as his famous sidewalk survey. Yeah,

537
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: he went he went to the shopping hearing in New York,

538
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: took a notebook and noticed that five hundred some women

539
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: out of seven hundred had feathers in their hats. And

540
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: because of his his ability to look at these hats

541
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: and tell what kind of feathers.

542
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: They were, he was that good.

543
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: He was very good, right, and and he could tell

544
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: that they were you know, flickers and woodpeckers and many

545
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: their backyard garden birds. And then he wrote an article

546
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: for Forest and Stream magazine saying women are wearing the

547
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: feathers of our songsters. And so that was part of

548
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: that movement.

549
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, so he was like, so he's in New

550
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: York and it is.

551
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: The heart of the millinery, or but he's.

552
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: But he's seeing like perhaps locally sourced birds.

553
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. In fact, Forrest and Stream did an

554
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: article right around that time where they they went to

555
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: one of these millinery houses and talked about how many

556
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: birds were being shipped in from Long Island and that

557
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: they were coming in every day. Birds in meat, as

558
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: they called it, they had just been shot with dust shot,

559
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,719
Speaker 2: and now they needed to be processed.

560
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: What's the shot they would.

561
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: Use so dusty? Could? They called a dust shot? Collectors

562
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: still use it today, ornithologists that are still permitted to collect.

563
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: It's a very very fine with the shotgun, Like do you.

564
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: Know how you would you know, like a nine shot

565
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: today would be about that's someone's gonna crack me on this.

566
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: That'd be about as small as you're gonna find. It

567
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: would be like a nine shot.

568
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: I'd have to look in the book. I didn't.

569
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: I'd be curious what it is, and I didn't.

570
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: Know what it was myself, but I talked to a

571
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 2: collector at the University of California, Davis, and that's what

572
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: they used, and they call it. They call it dust shot.

573
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: Because I was trying to find somebody to tell me, Okay,

574
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: what were they using? At that time, and if you

575
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: got too close to the bird you could blow it apart.

576
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: So you're trying to find it dust shot.

577
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, looking for miller.

578
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, like what shot size was dust shot? Did uh?

579
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: In your book you mentioned like people looking for eggs, right,

580
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: bird eggs, But that's just like that's just people looking

581
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: for something to eat or is it different than that?

582
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: It was both. So there was this practice called oohology.

583
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: So if you were interested in birds at that time,

584
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 2: say eighteen fifties, right after right after the Civil War,

585
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: you did three things. You you shot birds, You took

586
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: their eggs, and you took their nest. And that was

587
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: sort of the entry into birding at that time. And

588
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: the reason was that optics weren't very good and there

589
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: really weren't now good field guys at that time. So

590
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: if you were interested in birds, you went out with

591
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: your shotgun and your dust shot. You the birds are

592
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: That was a birding trip. That was a birding trip. Yeah.

593
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 3: Number the way, number twelve or so about one twenty

594
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: one point two seven millimeters.

595
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: Wow, So that smaller or bigger than number nine?

596
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: Sa Okay, I don't even heard of it. Like nine

597
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: is small?

598
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.

599
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: Nine would maybe be like, you know, might have applications,

600
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, like some guys will shoot mourning doves.

601
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: Yeah with nine, okay, that's small.

602
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: Eight is a more common dove. Yeah, twelve number twelve,

603
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: I never heard.

604
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: Of it so smaller than that.

605
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 2: I guess just for ornithologists that have a permit to

606
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: do so. So you you would shoot the bird, you'd

607
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: bring it back, you would, uh, you'd probably have a

608
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: big thick volume because again there's not really a field

609
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: guy to take out there with you. You'd identify the bird,

610
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: and then you would tax it, durm me the bird

611
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: as a study skin, and then put it away. And

612
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: then the other thing you would do is you would

613
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: collect their eggs and blow the egg out and put

614
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: some nomenclature on the outside in ink. And part of

615
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: it was at that period they were still studying, you know,

616
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: where did birds occur, what subspecies was, what, what was

617
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: the color, the morphology of of the egg, all those

618
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: kind of things. And then they would take nest. That

619
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 2: practice was known as nidology.

620
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: Huh.

621
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: So these were like the three things that.

622
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: That man, dude, I have never heard. Oology Oohologyology for

623
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: idology is collecting bird eggs, but not to eat. But

624
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: like the collection of science, right, and then idology is

625
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: collecting a bird nest. But many American children are nidologists whatever. More,

626
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: it pains them to leave a bird nest. It pains

627
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: them to leave a bird nest in a tree once

628
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: they confirmed that it's been vacated.

629
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: It's painful to them. So we still do nideology today.

630
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: I mean people bring them home to look.

631
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, my kids are like, there's no way, there's

632
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: no way I leave that nets.

633
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: I'm gonna take it on because yeah, there you go,

634
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 2: there you go. So oologists were people who were interested

635
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: in science, and many of them were young. There were

636
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: young men that boys intended to do this.

637
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: Like affluent, affluent people.

638
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I guess what I'm leading up to

639
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: here to say that a lot of oologists were just

640
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: interested in egg collecting. Collecting bird eggs didn't have any

641
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: science behind it. It was more like stamp collecting or

642
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: coin collecting. It was kind of a craze at one time. Really, Yeah,

643
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: to displayed in what way? Well you you would display

644
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: them in your cabinet of curiosity? Have you heard that? Yeah?

645
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: You know, So mine's more of a box.

646
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: Well exactly.

647
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: So it was.

648
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 2: It was people entertained back then in the park and

649
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: they would have a cabinet in their parlor, or they

650
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: might have a whole room where they would display items

651
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: of scientific interests, which could be seashells, eggs, fossils. There

652
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: was a lot of interest during the Gilded Age of

653
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: that period in scientific discovery. And there was a lot

654
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: of magazines you could read because magazine journalism was big

655
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: at that time too, And there was a magazine called

656
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: the Ooologists. Was a magazine called the Nightologists.

657
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: He's a magazine about it, absolutely.

658
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so you could read on how to how

659
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 2: to do it. You could you could buy and sell

660
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: those eggs, trade those eggs. So a lot of ooology,

661
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: a lot of ooologists, and there were tens of thousands

662
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: of them around the country at that time. Were not

663
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: all that interested in birds, were interested in science. They

664
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 2: were simply interested in these kind of things that looked

665
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: like they were pretty bobbles in many ways, that you

666
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: could put put in your cabinet.

667
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: And this is this is creating. What you're telling me,

668
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: I had never heard any of this. What you're telling

669
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: me is creating, like a really interesting context that that

670
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: isn't often observed about Theodore Roosevelt, because when you're reading

671
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt biographies or talking to Theodore Roosevelt biographers, they

672
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: always make a big deal about his collecting. Yeah, but

673
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: no one ever points out that I'm aware of that,

674
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: like we would be like like many young men of

675
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: his means, he was a collector. You sort of get

676
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: the sense that it was like a freak thing. No,

677
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: it was like a thing people were doing.

678
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

679
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. It' ever like no one ever does a good

680
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: job of conveying that he was one of one of many,

681
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: or or a sort of he was a product of

682
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: his time.

683
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: Sure well, I certainly mentioned that in my book, and

684
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: I also mentioned, uh, Franklin Roosevelt was also a collector

685
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 2: of birds, And I went to Hyde Park to look

686
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: at his bird collection, and it's it's all there in

687
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 2: his cabinet of curiosity. He has mounted birds and they

688
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: would they would preserve them with arsenic. And his his

689
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: mother was afraid of FDR using arsenic, and so she

690
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: sent his birds down river to New York City and

691
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: a professional would do his birds, but Teddy, Teddy would

692
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 2: would do his.

693
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: Line but she was hip to the idea that it

694
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: was hazardous.

695
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and and but yeah. Theodore

696
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: Theodore had his his own museum specimens. His father was

697
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: one of the founders at the American Museum of Natural History,

698
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 2: so Theodore got to hang out at the museum and

699
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: learn from some of the taxidermists there. And if you

700
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: go there today, I think on the first floor there

701
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: are still a couple of his mouths there. God as well.

702
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: I want to ask the same question I asked about

703
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: songbird hunters around the egg collectors, bird collectors, private collectors.

704
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: Did it have a population level.

705
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: Impact, Yes, particularly on again localized level, and sometimes with

706
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 2: certain kinds of birds. So ooologists would trade or sell

707
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: these birds, and the prices would depend on the difficulty

708
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: give finding the egg. So one oologist said that to

709
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: get a peagon falcon egg you had to climb and

710
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: he said, once you've visited the nest of five duck hawks,

711
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: which were falcon, you know peagon falcons, you're living on

712
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: borrowed time. And if you look at the list that

713
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: I found in the Oologist of the price of these eggs,

714
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: any kind of raptor egg was much more expensive than

715
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: the other ones.

716
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: I could definitely see that you'd have population level impact

717
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: on that for hanmpful reasons like that, like low fecundity,

718
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: low density. But then you can pretty much go into

719
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: an area, and if you're like a good observer, you

720
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 1: can probably go into an area and spend some time

721
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: there and be like, there's one there, there's one there,

722
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: and there's one there, and that's it.

723
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: Right, right, And so they would go back and forth. Now,

724
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: so many birds would lay a second clutch, and so

725
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: if you did this ethically, you would take one clutch,

726
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: allow them to lay the second clutch and then reproduce.

727
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 2: But a lot of these so frictly, but a lot

728
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: of these folks were greedy and they were trading and selling,

729
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: and so they would go back time after time after

730
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: time after again in order to do this.

731
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: Man, I can't believe, Like it's kind of blowing my

732
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: mind that, like I catch wind all kinds of weird stuff.

733
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: You know, I had no idea this was the thing.

734
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So what the.

735
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: Hell's the word again? Idology?

736
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: N idology, Well, that's nests, that's nest oohology. T Gilbert Pearson,

737
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: who was the head of the National Audubon Society in

738
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: the early part of the century. I think he was

739
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: the president for twenty twenty five years. He grew up

740
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: rather poor in Florida, and he was a neurologist, and

741
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: so he would collect all these eggs and he would

742
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: go back time after time after time to get as

743
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: many as he could, and he would sell them. He

744
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: actually traded his egg collection to a small college in

745
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: South Carolina in order to go to school. And then

746
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 2: his job was to go there and get an education.

747
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: While he was there, take care of the cabinet, Curiosity Cabinet,

748
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 2: which was a museum at the Skylight. So he actually

749
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: traded his egg collection for this. So you know, some

750
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: of these bird protectors started off this way as young people.

751
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm like in my own work right now,

752
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: looking I'm spending a lot energy looking at the fur

753
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: trade as a continuum, you know what I mean a

754
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: lot of times when people get into the fur trade,

755
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: they're talking about colonial America or whatever. But like looking

756
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: at it as the thing that never ended. And then

757
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: observation I have that I'll spend time on, that I'll

758
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: write about is the like the enormous difference between the

759
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: people that collect the fur and the people that ultimately

760
00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: wear the fur. Meaning the difference between a kid that

761
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: grows up on a ranch in Nevada and catches a

762
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: few bobcats every year and a Russian oligarch's wife who

763
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: ultimately wears those bobcats not only a big difference, but

764
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: there's a somewhat of a culturally like a mutual disdain.

765
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: Right the egg guys though, like did the did the

766
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: egg trade? I know the feather trade did, but did

767
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: the egg trade? Like kind of hatch a.

768
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: That was the pun?

769
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: What's that?

770
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: Oh?

771
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: I knew that. I guess you could say it flew

772
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: over your head or that dude, that was a good one.

773
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: I knew that hatched where they're like poor kids like

774
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: farm kids whatever, like poor kids that wouldn't have been

775
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: the kind of people that had a parlor and a

776
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: curiosity box, who were just hipped to the idea. They knew.

777
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: They're like listen, man, people will pay money for these eggs. Yes,

778
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: but they weren't. They weren't aspiring ornithologists. They were just collectors,

779
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: that's right.

780
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, there were plenty of folks like that. Pearson actually,

781
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: to Gilbert Pearson, he loved birds, but that's exactly what

782
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: he was doing. You know. One year someone wrote to

783
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: him through the Oologist and said, I will take all

784
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: the bird eggs from that part of Florida, and so

785
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: that's what he did. He went out and collected like Christy.

786
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: And he wasn't coming to it as a bird enthusiast.

787
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: He was coming to it as like, Hey, if they're

788
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: going to pay for it, I'll get it.

789
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I have my own collection and I know

790
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: where all these birds are, and so I'm going to

791
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 2: do that. But yeah, there were a lot of people

792
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: who did that, even the bird collectors, many of the

793
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: shotgun ornithologists to went out and collected their own birds.

794
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: They didn't have time, or they couldn't get everywhere they

795
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: needed to get for certain birds that they wanted, so

796
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: they could buy them, or they could contract with people

797
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: who called themselves taxidermists, but they were basically just contract

798
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,959
Speaker 2: hunters who would shoot those birds for them and bring

799
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: them back.

800
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: Whether we're talking about market hunting for ducks, which is

801
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: just supplying restaurants meat markets with duck meat, or we're

802
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 1: talking about the feather trade shooting egrets, spoon bills for decorations,

803
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: or we're talking about egg collecting, like any of these things,

804
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about when and how extensive? When did the

805
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: damage start to show, like the resource damage, When did

806
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: it show? And how extensive did the damage get, regardless

807
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: of what the ultimate use was, Like, what were we

808
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: seeing in terms of birds that we now think of

809
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: as abundant that weren't or birds that we know were

810
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: wiped out? Right? Like when did it become apparent and

811
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: how bad did it get?

812
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: Probably by the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties. When the American

813
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 2: Ornithologists Union formed in eighteen eighty three, they created a

814
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 2: committee at their second at their second meeting to look

815
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 2: at bird protection. Because these guys were I called them

816
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: birdmen in the book because they were all men, but

817
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 2: they were collectors that they were scientists, mostly self educated,

818
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: because there was no university courses for to become an ornithologist.

819
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: They had this committee that went out and then studied,

820
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: you know, what was happening with birds and they identified

821
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 2: plenty of places where birds were being wiped out. Cape

822
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 2: cod was won. I think that the year that they

823
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: did them they created that committee, they figured that there

824
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: were sixty thousand turns that were shot for the feather trade,

825
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: and because in a year, in a year, and because

826
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: where New York was located, birds were disappearing through Long Island,

827
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 2: the Cape, along New Jersey, Barnicut Bay, and further down

828
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: into the Carolinas too. Eventually, by eighteen ninety, what was

829
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 2: they killed the turns for feathers, feathers there, there were

830
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: all kinds of There were a lot of different kinds

831
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: of birds were used. Gulls were very popular as well.

832
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think of them as having like a

833
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: crazy tricked out feather like a heron does or something.

834
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: No, that that's true. But there was a need for

835
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of whatever. And then some of them

836
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 2: you could die, and so you could you know, you

837
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: could change change that.

838
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: But anyway, so a seagull that throws a white feather

839
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: that might have turned up on the market as a

840
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: red feather.

841
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, as something else, that's right, that's right. But I've

842
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 2: got a picture in the book that herring gulls were

843
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 2: used to make a hat and a tippet set of

844
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: I think as they called it. And so at one

845
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: point by the eighteen nineties it was estimated, and I

846
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 2: did talk to a biologist on nath who said, look,

847
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: we weren't taking really good we didn't have good science

848
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 2: back then. But it was estimated back then that ninety

849
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 2: five percent of Florida's wading birds disappeared during this period

850
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 2: because of the feather trade, and clearly most of the

851
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: know and rookeries were wiped out. And then that kind

852
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 2: of continued through Louisiana and Texas as well. So it

853
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 2: was very evident by the eighteen nineties that these showy

854
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 2: birds were just being were just being wiped out. And

855
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: it was clear because the prices had gone up so

856
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: much from scarcity god that they were harder to get a.

857
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: Thing about just being alive. You know, in America and

858
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: a lot of places you go, you're sort of haunted

859
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: by past image, you know, or you're haunted by a

860
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: sense of absence, right Like you could go to a

861
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: place like if I'm just thinking around here, you know,

862
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: you could go to a place where mountain men would

863
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: talk about hillsides full of big horns, and they're seeing

864
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: three four hundred big horns on the hillside just ain't

865
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: gonna happen now, Or you know, herds buffalo that you

866
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: watch cross a river for three days all day, right,

867
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: and you feel that absence. But it's interesting to think

868
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: that that you could be in Florida right today, you

869
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: could be on vacation down in Florida on the beach,

870
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: and you're like thinking back. You could think back to

871
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: maybe an era of greater abundance, but you can also

872
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: think back to an era when you probably wouldn't see

873
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:17,760
Speaker 1: any of the things you see.

874
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

875
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: You know, it'd be like an example of oh no,

876
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: it's better now, like it's been worse, right right, which

877
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,919
Speaker 1: is true again and again on all kinds of game,

878
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: animals and things. But you just don't, like, I don't

879
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: anyways think that, you know, you imagine like that you're

880
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: on a shoreline, that you could have been on a

881
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: shoreline back then. There were no herons. You see egrets

882
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: all over in pastures. There were no egrets in those pastures.

883
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know. I'm from Pennsylvania and originally

884
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania had about five hundred deer left around nineteen

885
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,919
Speaker 2: hundred in the entire state, and I can remember when

886
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: we did not see eagles. This is you know, nineteen

887
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: sixties when I was we didn't see eagles, there were

888
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: no bears in that part of Pennsylvania, and now today

889
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 2: there are eagles, there are bears, and so yeah, same

890
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: things treat you know, true with the with birds as well.

891
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: That they've come back, they're still not as abundant as

892
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: they could be, you know, and maybe will be in

893
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: the future depending on how we take care of them. Right.

894
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean things around nineteen hundred were pretty bleak,

895
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 2: and it went through not just birds, but through you know, deer,

896
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: big game animals. I have a chapter in this book

897
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: about George Berger now and Theodore Roosevelt founding the Boone

898
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: and Crockett Club, and that that did have effect also

899
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 2: on birds as well.

900
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes today you hear politicians and they'll talk about

901
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: like deregulations was the greatest thing in the world. What

902
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: saved America's birds is.

903
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: Is regular regulation. That's right.

904
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: Like if we had stayed it wasn't even deregulated, it

905
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: was unregulated. If we had stayed unregulated, they'd be gone.

906
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 1: Saving wildlife in America was regulation. It was enacting regulation

907
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: when the when people started to really realize that we

908
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: were going to lose stuff, and we did lose stuff

909
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 1: because the passenger pigeon went extinct in nineteen I think

910
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: it was nineteen thirteen. I mean it was effectively extinct

911
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: well before that, right, the last one died. I rebuilt

912
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: woodpecker wiped.

913
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: Out, right, Carolina parakeet.

914
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 1: Carolina parakeet wiped out. But when it got to where

915
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: they were, people started to try to get a grip

916
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 1: on it, like how did that take place? Like when

917
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: you if you go look and you have this sense

918
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: of urgency, they're vanishing, they're still hunting them without regulation,

919
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: where do you even like, where do you begin? Like

920
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: what were the first things they decided to try?

921
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think that was the heart of the

922
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: book was to look at how these different groups came

923
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 2: together to stop this from happening. The politicians in the

924
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: legislation really came later, partially because of public pressure to

925
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: do something. But you know, the Audubon movement started in

926
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: the late eighteen eighties. It went away for a couple

927
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: of years. I mean, it's a long story, but it was.

928
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 2: It was resurrected by these women in Massachusetts. Then it

929
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: spread to different states. These were what they called the

930
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: birds sentimentalists, we want to save these birds.

931
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 1: They called themselves that they did. They did it. It

932
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 1: seems like a slight.

933
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: Well it was to some degree because it was often

934
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: run by women who who again the moors of the

935
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: time was they're sentimental, they're headed, they're too soft hearted.

936
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: Even some of the bird men who were concerned about

937
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 2: this were very suspicious of the Audubon Society because I

938
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 2: shoot birds, you know, I don't look at them. And

939
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 2: then the hunting community came in partly because of market hunting.

940
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,479
Speaker 2: They wanted to stop market hunting, and they saw that

941
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 2: there was a synergy between all three of these groups.

942
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: And then that continued into the nineteen hundreds and eventually

943
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: began to enlist the politicians. But it was a slow process.

944
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: But part of it was people were looking around and

945
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: there were just fewer birds. And I think the passenger

946
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 2: pigeons decimation, the way the populations dropped off very quickly,

947
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 2: really hit people hearts.

948
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: Is that right?

949
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think you know a lot of I say

950
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: in the book that a lot of people never took

951
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: a train and went across the Gray Plains and saw

952
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 2: these great herds of buffalo that were then of course,

953
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 2: you know, being killed. But if you're east of the Mississippi,

954
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 2: you probably witnessed the passing of the passenger pigeons, which

955
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: was an epic, you know sight to see where you know.

956
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: So that was at the time. I know it happened fast,

957
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: but like that was the thing people saw happen like

958
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: and it struck them emotionally.

959
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: It did it did it?

960
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: Did? You know?

961
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: Again? A lot of them hunted them, They they passenger

962
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: pigeons were marking, hunted, they were eating in restaurants and cities.

963
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it was something people grew

964
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: up with, was you know, seeing the sky darkened, it

965
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: sounded like thunder. It would kick all the dust up

966
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: from from the land, and these birds would take hours

967
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: to pass by. It was just it was just a

968
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 2: sight of nature that no one will ever see again.

969
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 2: It happened in their lifetime. It was gone. And I

970
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 2: think that's true of some of some other birds as well,

971
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 2: that birds that were sort of favorites to be on

972
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 2: the farm or be in your backyard, we're just not

973
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: there anymore.

974
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: At that time, was it? Like? Were the were the

975
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: hunters and then the preservationists or the sentimentalists were there?

976
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: Were they kind of like uneasy partners.

977
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 2: Somewhat at the same time, some of the sentimentalists were hunters,

978
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: you know, and and you know certainly, and we're eating

979
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: meat and we're eating birds that they were buying down

980
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 2: at the market, and so they understood that. So I

981
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: think it was a matter of of over time coming

982
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: together saying we can, you know, we can work together.

983
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: And and then it was not so much that, well,

984
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: we don't like hunters, we don't like market hunters, and

985
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: we don't like game hogs the pot hunter, and the

986
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 2: pot hunter was again the subsistence hunter who had no

987
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 2: restraint because of the laws or you could ignore them.

988
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 2: So they were going out and shooting a hundred ducks.

989
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: And then the sport hunter tended to be someone who

990
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: felt that there ought to be laws and there ought

991
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: to be some limits. Now. At the same time, when

992
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: sport hunting first started in the eighteen seventies eighteen eighties,

993
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: the whole idea was to kill as many things as

994
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 2: you could. That was a good day in the field.

995
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 2: And George Shiris talks about that even when he introduced

996
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: his nineteen oh four builder Protect Game Birds. He said,

997
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 2: I would go out on a day and kill two

998
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 2: hundred birds and just bring a few home and leave

999
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 2: the rest there, take them into town and sell them.

1000
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: And it was part of this whole mentality of the

1001
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: Gilded Age that we live in a limitless time and

1002
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 2: there's always going to be more Why because there always

1003
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 2: has been more yea and dislike the buffalo. And I

1004
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 2: talk about it in the book that this this began

1005
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: to change. People started to realize you can't cut all

1006
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 2: the trees down, and someday you will cut all the

1007
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 2: trees down, or some day you're gonna kill all the buffalo,

1008
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 2: or you're gonna kill all the Canada geese. And that's

1009
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 2: where the term conservation comes into the lexicon. And that

1010
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: doesn't really come in until the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties.

1011
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: So what were some of the legislative steps that helped

1012
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: sort of sure get a grip on things, get things

1013
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: under control.

1014
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 2: So the American Ornithology Issueing first came out with what

1015
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,919
Speaker 2: they called their Model Law, and it was a law

1016
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: that they were asking states to pass to protect non

1017
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 2: game birds, and that was non game birds, and so

1018
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 2: they they kind of left all the game birds to sports.

1019
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: People, got it, They'll sort that out.

1020
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, although later that changed, and so you had

1021
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 2: some states that adopted these laws, but there wasn't a

1022
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 2: lot of money for game wardens, you know, to enforce it.

1023
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 2: There were the sheriff's departments in these little counties did

1024
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: not want to arrest anybody for shooting birds. Sometimes their

1025
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: own families were involved in shooting birds. And so it

1026
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 2: really wasn't until the Lazy Act, which you know, you know,

1027
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot about.

1028
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: Explain it explained.

1029
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the Lazy Act was John Lacy was

1030
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: a lawyer from Iowa in nineteen hundred, and I look

1031
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: at my notes a little bit because I try to remember.

1032
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: In nineteen hundred he passed the what became known is

1033
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 2: the Lacy Act, and that was to try to prevent

1034
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: market hunting, market hunters from bringing birds across state lines.

1035
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: So if you if you shot birds in Kansas that

1036
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: were in violation of that of Kansas law. Let's say

1037
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 2: Kansas had a bag season, if you could pack him

1038
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 2: into barrels, put them on a train, and get them

1039
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 2: across the border, you could just sell them, and and

1040
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 2: and so his so the Lacy Act was that birds

1041
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 2: can't be sold or wildlife in general can't be sold

1042
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 2: outside of a state where it was killed illegally, and

1043
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: that started to put the damper on feather hunting and

1044
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: meat hunting. And it was really the first federalization of

1045
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 2: wildlife and birds.

1046
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was one of the initial introductions of

1047
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: the idea that a state couldn't just decide to wipe

1048
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: something out that's right under the argument that hey, it's

1049
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: our state, don't tell us what to do. Exactly.

1050
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: So places like Louisiana and other of these states along

1051
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: to Mississippi Missouri that were still allowing lots of duck

1052
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 2: shooting could no longer their market. Hunters could not get

1053
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 2: those birds out of the state. In Solomon, Massachusetts, or

1054
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania or Chicago got it. So it really cut down

1055
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: on a lot of that.

1056
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: And because we hear the Lacy Act now in terms

1057
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: of all kinds of things like you could poach a

1058
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: white tailed buck and bring it to it in Illinois

1059
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: and bring it to a taxi thermist in Indiana and

1060
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: wind up getting a lasiac violation, or it happens around fish,

1061
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: but it was conceptualized as a bird thing.

1062
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was also there were lazy agents that

1063
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 2: were created at that time, agents that were going into

1064
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 2: cold storage facilities and finding, you know, thousands of birds

1065
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 2: and barrels that they knew had been killed illegally, and

1066
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 2: then they were confiscating them.

1067
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: When you hear that termed birds and barrels, do you

1068
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: have any idea what that means?

1069
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you could pack a bird in a barrel.

1070
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: In a brine cleaned birds, or do anything like feathered bird.

1071
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 2: You clean the bird and you could pack it in

1072
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 2: a zinc barrel and you could pump all the air

1073
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 2: out of it, and then you could keep it in

1074
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 2: a cold storage for years. So these cold stories. I

1075
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 2: have one whole chapter called cold storage Man. And I

1076
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: found this great book in nineteen oh four about a

1077
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 2: guy who started off being a market market hunter then

1078
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 2: he became a cold storage man.

1079
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: Okay, explaining to me again, So I got a bunch

1080
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: I shoot a bunch of birds.

1081
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: You say, you shoot a bunch of birds, you know,

1082
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: and initially you could put him into and I house

1083
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 2: with natural ice, and.

1084
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: So they might just got him and put him in

1085
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: an ice house.

1086
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: That's right, and then try to keep them for six

1087
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 2: months and then ship them because you got a train.

1088
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 2: Now in many places now you have train transportation, and

1089
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: you could put him in these ice boxes and get

1090
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,960
Speaker 2: them to Chicago and get them to New York. I

1091
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 2: mean a lot of market hunting went on locally, and

1092
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: but once ice came along, and they and trains came along,

1093
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 2: then you could start transporting birds and other wildlife, you know,

1094
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: one thousand miles, which is what happened with passenger pigeons.

1095
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 2: Passenger pigeons would roost and for weeks people would just

1096
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 2: kill them. The pigeoneers as they were known, they were hunters,

1097
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: could kill them and ship them out on trains.

1098
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: Okay, but explain the barrel thing to me.

1099
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: So with this guy, I mean, and I'm not an

1100
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 2: expert on this, but but with this guy that they arrested,

1101
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 2: who was known as the he was known as the

1102
01:05:58,600 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 2: quail King.

1103
01:05:59,840 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: And.

1104
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 2: He was raised his his ice house was raided and

1105
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: they found tens of thousands of birds in his ice house,

1106
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: and he had some in these zincd barrels where I

1107
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 2: think an airtight barrel, airtight barrel pumped and and that

1108
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 2: when the warden who came in cut open the barrel,

1109
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: they took some of the birds and cooked them and

1110
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 2: said they tasted quite well. Really yeah, yeah, Now that

1111
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 2: seems like a long time.

1112
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: So he's like creating some kind of like anaerobic environment.

1113
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 2: Exactly. So you know, through in the chapter he talks

1114
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 2: about how he initially got into this business. So he married,

1115
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 2: he was he was in he was in Illinois. He

1116
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 2: married a woman from Illinois. Anybody wanted to take her

1117
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 2: back to New York to meet the relatives. It was

1118
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 2: it was spring, it was still kind of cold. He

1119
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 2: shot a few plover and he shot some prairie chickens.

1120
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 2: He put him in his suitcase and then it was

1121
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 2: in a cool baggage car. When he got to New York,

1122
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: he pulled the birds out. He walked down to an

1123
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: open market, you know, open air market at that time,

1124
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 2: and people surrounded him immediately and wanted to buy his birds.

1125
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 2: And he said he named an outrageous price, and they

1126
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: bought his birds.

1127
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: They wanted to buy him to eat them.

1128
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, and and you know, and he's like, wow,

1129
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, they that's a great price. Then he started

1130
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 2: looking around at the at the other people who were

1131
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 2: selling birds there and just saw that their birds were

1132
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 2: just bad looking. Birds and just kind of spoiled and whatever. No,

1133
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 2: and wonder everybody wanted his birds. His birds still look fresh.

1134
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 2: And he said, I can make a lot of money

1135
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 2: if I can get these Illinois birds to New York

1136
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 2: on eye and make money. And that's how his whole business.

1137
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: Started selling Illinois birds in New York.

1138
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then as Illinois got shot out, then he

1139
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 2: moved out to Iowa and Nebraska, and then he stopped

1140
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 2: hunting completely and just became a cold storage man, a

1141
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 2: refrigerator mainly what they called him. Yeah, well, I'll have

1142
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 2: to look. It was a great book to find. It

1143
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 2: was called the That's why I wrote it down, so

1144
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't remember cold storage man. What was the name?

1145
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: That was the name of the what people used to

1146
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 2: call him, the quail king and the cold storage man.

1147
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 2: And you're asking me a question, I can't find.

1148
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: Type that Ingriant coil King, cold storage.

1149
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 2: Man, nineteen oh four, nineteen oh four. I think the

1150
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,240
Speaker 2: book was called The Tale of the Gun.

1151
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: The Tale of the Gun, Yeah.

1152
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he wrote it in nineteen oh four about

1153
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: his being a market hunter in his life. It was

1154
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 2: a great fine I just found it on the internet.

1155
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 2: I thought this thing works perfect.

1156
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so if we if we left off, we

1157
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: were talking about Lazy Act, right what like, So lacyac

1158
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,799
Speaker 1: predated the Migratory and Songbird Treaty or whatever.

1159
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 2: That's right. So nineteen hundred was really the first federalization

1160
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 2: of wildlife where the federal government's now moving in and

1161
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 2: saying that, you know, we're going to do something about.

1162
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: And people are probably having a fit.

1163
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:40,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely, particularly millinery industry, the market hunters, they're all worried.

1164
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 2: Nineteen oh four, George Shiris the third introduces the Shyris

1165
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 2: Bird Bill, which was something like the weak the Migratory

1166
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 2: Bird Treaty, although George was just saying that only game

1167
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 2: birds should be protected. But what he is saying at

1168
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 2: that point is that the states cannot protect these birds

1169
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 2: and they're not acting in coordinations. So as a duck flies,

1170
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, south to north, north to south, it's being

1171
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 2: shot in every state pretty much as it's going because

1172
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 2: there's not uniform regulations across that. Shyrius knew that law

1173
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 2: was not going to pass, but he wanted to introduce

1174
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,599
Speaker 2: that concept, and he was a lawyer, so he had

1175
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:35,759
Speaker 2: worked out this legal theory of National Powers Act Police

1176
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: Powers Act to do this, and he knew it wasn't

1177
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 2: going to pass in Congress then because there were a

1178
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 2: lot of states rights folks that said, we don't want

1179
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 2: the federal government, you know, stepping into this.

1180
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 1: Sure man, this conversation never ends, right.

1181
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: So over the next few years, though a lot of

1182
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 2: bad things were happening, birds were still you know, dying off.

1183
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:05,560
Speaker 2: Now there's no passenger pigeons flying around. The Audubon movement.

1184
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 1: The.

1185
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: Boone and Crockett folks, and all of these movements in public.

1186
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 2: Pressure is starting to mount on this. So in nineteen

1187
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 2: eleven twelve, it bubbles up again and that becomes the

1188
01:11:21,120 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 2: Week's McLean Act. The other thing that happened at that

1189
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 2: time was the American Game Protective and Propagation Association, which

1190
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 2: is this long. They eventually made their name a lot shorter,

1191
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 2: but that was the AMMO and gun manufacturers. It said,

1192
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 2: we want to help out, and we want to start

1193
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 2: this organization because we're getting afraid that our people aren't

1194
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 2: going to have anything to shoot at our sport hunters

1195
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 2: and they so that's when the hunters really moved into

1196
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 2: this bird prot thing, and they decided that that you know,

1197
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 2: Their aim was stop market hunting, complete yeah, protect migratory birds,

1198
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 2: get to you know, get the feds and FEDS involved,

1199
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 2: and they came together with the Audubon Society too to

1200
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 2: push for the passage of this act. Now, the Audubon

1201
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 2: Society came in and said, you know, we will, we

1202
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: will help you. However, you have to include non game

1203
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 2: birds and that became the Dickie Bird Amendment, which was

1204
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 2: bringing in the bird. Yeah, tweety bird exactly, bringing in

1205
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 2: these little birds.

1206
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: Now there were still birds, so that was like an

1207
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 1: add on.

1208
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 2: It was an ad on, yeah, it was. It was

1209
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 2: the Audubon Society that came in and said, well, we

1210
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 2: basically support bird collection. However you're just supporting game.

1211
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 1: Birds, dicky birds.

1212
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to add to Dickie birds. So it's

1213
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:57,759
Speaker 2: called the Dickie Bird Amendment now, which is pretty slang

1214
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 2: for a little bird like we would say weedy bird here.

1215
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: So they added that amendment and then the American game

1216
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 2: folks were good lobbyists, aggressive lobbyists, and the Campfire Club

1217
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 2: was involved in that time. There were some other groups

1218
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,879
Speaker 2: there and they all came into Congress and they lobbied

1219
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 2: for the passage of the Weeks McLean Act, and then

1220
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 2: that was passed in nineteen thirteen, and then there was

1221
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 2: a the Agriculture Department had to create rules, and so

1222
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 2: there was like, you know, no hunting before sun comes up,

1223
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,639
Speaker 2: no hunting after the sun goes down, no spring shooting.

1224
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 2: Closed season on certain birds that were in danger of

1225
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,800
Speaker 2: you know, extinction, including the wood duck at that time.

1226
01:13:55,439 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 2: And that raised a lot of concern from these states

1227
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 2: down south that was you know, Missouri and some of

1228
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 2: these other ones. It still wanted this, you know, they

1229
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 2: still felt that the state was the ownership of birds. Now,

1230
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:17,719
Speaker 2: two important people evolved in that time, where Howard Taft,

1231
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,679
Speaker 2: who was Roosevelt's vice president. Taft had been a judge

1232
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:27,080
Speaker 2: and a lawyer and later the US Supreme Court. Justice

1233
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 2: Taft said the Weak Macclaims Act is unconstitutional because there

1234
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,640
Speaker 2: was there was law that said the states really do

1235
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,120
Speaker 2: own it, and it's going to lose. And there's also

1236
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 2: a guy named Elihu Root. He was a senator. He

1237
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 2: had also been Secretary of State under Roosevelt. He'd been

1238
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 2: Secretary of War under Taft. And so these two people

1239
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 2: told Schiras, look, your law is unconstitutional. And if it

1240
01:14:56,240 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 2: gets tested, which it did. Guy shot two coots and

1241
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 2: they went all the way up to the Supreme Court.

1242
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,639
Speaker 2: So he said, the way to get around that is when.

1243
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 1: They were pointing out that it's unconstitutional, they supported the idea.

1244
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: They supported the I thought legislation.

1245
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, they thought, you know, they thought George's legal theory

1246
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 2: was just not gonna was just not going to make

1247
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 2: constitutional muster with.

1248
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 1: The Supreme So they're advising him their advisor rather than

1249
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:26,560
Speaker 1: being an adversary.

1250
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 2: So so the end of round of all of this

1251
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:33,599
Speaker 2: is like, you need to go to Canada and get

1252
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 2: a treaty. If you get a treaty with Canada that

1253
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 2: basically we're going to protect birds not only that go

1254
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 2: across state lines, but also go across international lines, because

1255
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 2: that's what migratory bird treaty exactly migratory bird treaty because

1256
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 2: most of the ducks are nesting in Canada and coming

1257
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 2: back south. So if you get a bird treaty under

1258
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 2: the supremacy clause, it circumvents the Supreme Court. And so

1259
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 2: that was the end around. You know you're going to

1260
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,919
Speaker 2: lose in court, and so let's go for the treaty,

1261
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:16,919
Speaker 2: and that'd be the end around. Now they negotiated with Canada,

1262
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 2: not Mexico because Mexico was still in the revolutionary state

1263
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 2: at that point. They joined in later they did in

1264
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,560
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty is we reopened.

1265
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: So that the ability to have that is based on

1266
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 1: this treaty. But what is the treaty called.

1267
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,599
Speaker 2: So the treaty is called the migratroy Bird Act Treaty.

1268
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: But it had to have been adopted by Congress.

1269
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:39,879
Speaker 2: It was adopted by Congress, yeah, about about nineteen nineteen,

1270
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty.

1271
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: They made it like law law.

1272
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:46,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, they made it a law. But those guys in Missouri,

1273
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,919
Speaker 2: including the Attorney General that I talked.

1274
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: About earlier, they were still not buying it.

1275
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:52,920
Speaker 2: They were still not buying it. That's when they shot

1276
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 2: those ducks. That's when they were caught by the Felderal

1277
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 2: ward and it went up to the Supreme Court. Frank McAllister,

1278
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 2: the Attorney General, argued the case in front of the

1279
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:05,760
Speaker 2: court and the court said, you know, it doesn't make

1280
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:10,639
Speaker 2: any difference. It's a treaty and that supersedes all states' rights,

1281
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 2: and that's what it was.

1282
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 1: But was this McAllister guy, was he violating his own

1283
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 1: state law? Because by that point they probably had like

1284
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,599
Speaker 1: kind of a fake law, like they had a law

1285
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:23,280
Speaker 1: that no one paid any attention to, or did they

1286
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,479
Speaker 1: not have any regulation in his state.

1287
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 2: They had regulations that they could that they had a

1288
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 2: spring shooting season that extended beyond what the Feds had

1289
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 2: said to spring counting.

1290
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: So he wasn't he was legal in his state. He was, Okay,

1291
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: he was, he was.

1292
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 2: It's a great story.

1293
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 1: Actually when what ended up happening to that guy McAllister.

1294
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,720
Speaker 2: Well, he was going to be the governor, but he

1295
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 2: thought he was going to be the governor. But this

1296
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 2: didn't help vote. Yeah, this costume votes. And he ended

1297
01:17:54,640 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 2: up becoming a lawyer for the Kansas City Insurance Company,

1298
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 2: and he was actually arrested with some Kansas City Insurance executives.

1299
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 2: When he was arrested, they were all shooting out, you know,

1300
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:13,719
Speaker 2: shooting these birds. And so I went to Stultz Lake,

1301
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 2: which is this little duck club of twenty five people

1302
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 2: in the Vaden, Missouri, just to go there're still there.

1303
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 2: He's still there, and and and to see.

1304
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 1: Where are those guys aware of the sort of role

1305
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 1: their club played.

1306
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 2: Not completely. It was kind of funny because you know,

1307
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:32,600
Speaker 2: they were saying that they thought it was all a

1308
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 2: set up, that that that was sort of how the

1309
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 2: it trickled down that the Attorney General was set up

1310
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 2: and he actually did this on purpose in order to

1311
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:43,759
Speaker 2: test a lot. That's not true.

1312
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So it's it's become over time, it's become

1313
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:49,840
Speaker 1: that it was a little more benevolent. Yeah, And in

1314
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: reality he was like, no, I'm going to do what

1315
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to do.

1316
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 2: And and and and he got to this club, and

1317
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 2: these it's a great story. These guys followed him down.

1318
01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:01,640
Speaker 2: They they they got out at four o'clock in the

1319
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 2: morning at this little town and there was a taxi

1320
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 2: driver there and they said, take us out to the

1321
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 2: Duck Club. And the guy said, well, what duck club?

1322
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 2: He goes the one max at They called him back,

1323
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 2: and they actually took him out to the club and

1324
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 2: and and on the way out, they said, you can't

1325
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 2: get in there because it's locked to keep they keep

1326
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,519
Speaker 2: the game wardens out. He goes, don't worry, mac, let

1327
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,919
Speaker 2: us in and it wasn't locked, and they were actually

1328
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,640
Speaker 2: able to drive right in, got dropped off, knocked on

1329
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:34,599
Speaker 2: the clubhouse door, dragged one guy out of bed.

1330
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 1: So apparently those guys had the open fields doctrine and

1331
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 1: didn't need a warrant. No, because it was game.

1332
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:44,479
Speaker 2: It was a game. Yeah yeah, yeah, because.

1333
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 1: He got in there under subterfuge.

1334
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 2: They did. They did. I don't know that much about

1335
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 2: the law, that's exactly how.

1336
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: So that's like, this is a this could be a

1337
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: follow up, like an addendum if you ever do one

1338
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: for your book, because there's a there's a lively debate

1339
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:07,760
Speaker 1: right now where if a game warden suspects that there's

1340
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:16,719
Speaker 1: a violation occurring on private property, he doesn't need a warrant. Okay,

1341
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: So if a game board is standing on a public

1342
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 1: road and you're shooting away on your private property, right,

1343
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: he can walk on over in a way that like

1344
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 1: a cop cannot do.

1345
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 2: Right, Okay.

1346
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:32,840
Speaker 1: Then there's this thing, the open fields doctrine, and it's

1347
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,680
Speaker 1: like it gives game wardens a level of latitude on

1348
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 1: private property that normal police don't enjoy in terms of

1349
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: their ability to go and check out what's going on.

1350
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: If they know hunting to be taking place, that gives

1351
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: them what they need to go on to the property

1352
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 1: and then see is there a violation occurring. They don't

1353
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 1: need to be motivated by knowledge of it occurring. And

1354
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 1: this is being tested. Now there's you know, private private

1355
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: property rights advocates are arguing, why in the world would

1356
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,720
Speaker 1: we allow wardens to violate what they perceive to be

1357
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 1: their constitutional rights and that you'd have like illegal search

1358
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 1: and seizure or whatever. Why is that okay for a

1359
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 1: game warden? And so it's being tested. I would picture

1360
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 1: I'm an aspiring polymarket better. If I was a polymarket

1361
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 1: betting man, I would go and create one about like

1362
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 1: in the future. I think that we will see, and

1363
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I agree with this, in the future,

1364
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 1: we will see a reduction in game wardens' abilities to

1365
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:51,880
Speaker 1: go and do their work on private property like your

1366
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 1: buddy with your buddy that caught the like your buddy

1367
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 1: that caught the bad guy.

1368
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: Well, consider how much private land there is, and right,

1369
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 2: so you can only do it on public land.

1370
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, public land, do whatever you want.

1371
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1372
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 1: What they're what they're contesting is that you know that

1373
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,000
Speaker 1: they can go do what they want, that the game

1374
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: work can go over and be like what's up boys,

1375
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: which happens all the time. Yeah, right, you know, right,

1376
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:22,680
Speaker 1: I've been sitting out there duck hunting cornfields and you

1377
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 1: turn around. It scares you because it's a game ward

1378
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 1: standing there, and some people are like, how could that

1379
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 1: be true? Like like a cop, you know what I mean? Sure, Like,

1380
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:31,640
Speaker 1: how can that be How can you be standing here

1381
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,760
Speaker 1: all of a sudden on my place? Where's your warrant?

1382
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:37,880
Speaker 1: You know? It's a robust debate right now.

1383
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, So once you book out, it comes out

1384
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:45,480
Speaker 2: March seventeenth.

1385
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 1: Oh, we're good.

1386
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, it's uh yeah, you can basically get it

1387
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 3: now because you you know.

1388
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can order it one day before, that's right.

1389
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's just like when you do that, it

1390
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: just shows up a lot of times. They ship early too. Congratulations.

1391
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm holding to thank you for people watching. I'm holding

1392
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 1: the what's called a galley copy says not for quotation,

1393
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 1: not for resale, uncorrected proof. In the vernacular, we know

1394
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 1: these is galley copies. So when you get yours, you'll

1395
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 1: get a brand spicketty, nice hardcover book.

1396
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's got some two inserts of you know,

1397
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:27,439
Speaker 2: slick photos in there. And I found a lot of

1398
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 2: great historical photos as well.

1399
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, they also call these Advanced reader copies, as

1400
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:35,720
Speaker 1: it says right on the cover. Yeah, idea being this

1401
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 1: little little publishing inside. If you realize that there's a

1402
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 1: review for a book the day the book comes out,

1403
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 1: a smart fella might be saying, well, how does he

1404
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 1: know the book's not out yet? Yeah, so they sent

1405
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: them one of these advanced reader copies. So that's what

1406
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm holding. I want people realize if they order the book,

1407
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: they get like a like a legit book.

1408
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is just an attractive looking book to.

1409
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,799
Speaker 1: An attractive looking book. Again. It's called The Feather Wars

1410
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,440
Speaker 1: and the Great Crusade to Save America's Birds with James

1411
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 1: James H. Mccommons, what's irish name? Absolutely all right, thanks

1412
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: so much for coming on, man. I appreciate it.

1413
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:18,920
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate it too. It's been fun.