1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Calzon Media. 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 2: Welcome Tock It Happen. Hear a podcast about things falling 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 2: apart and them continuing to fall apart. I'm your host, 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: Mia Wong with me as James Stout. 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 3: Hi. Miya glad to hear about whatever's going to shit today. 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so before we start talking about imperialism, we're starting 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: everything episode with this until you people stop, until you 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: stop doing this. It is the year two thousand and 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: twenty five. We are a quarter of a century into 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: this millennia and people are still getting kettled by cops 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: on bridges. They did this occupy in twenty eleven. They 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: did it in twenty eighteen during the Occupy Ice protest. 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: The people did it in twenty twenty. People did it 14 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: last year during the Dream of the Power sign and 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: Cambus people are doing it again this year. Simply do 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: not lead a march onto a bridge, yep or a 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: tunnel to dai reasons. We would also include a tunnel. Yes, 18 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: don't do the tunnel either. 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. If there's no side exits, just don't. 20 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: Yes, here's the thing. You walk onto a bridge, all 21 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: the cops have to do is take both exits and 22 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: everyone on the bridge gets arrested. You can simply not 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: do this. If you must do it, you need to 24 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: like make one thousand percent sure you can hold both 25 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: sides of the bridge. Yeah, both of them. You need 26 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: to hold both of them. Yeah, and almost certainly you can't. 27 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 2: So only you, only you, dear listener, can prevent four 28 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: thousand more people from getting kettled on locking bridges. And 29 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to keep starting episodes packing well, get it, 30 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: don't get kettled up bridges until this stop. All right, 31 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: this is this is this has been me as public 32 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: service announcement of a bridge kettling. Let's get into the 33 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: nature of imperialism and why Trump's is different. So we've 34 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: been covering a lot of Trump's sort of I don't know, 35 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: the trade wars, his call for the US to seize 36 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: the Gouzel Strip, a whole bunch of stories about the 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: way that Trump is using the power of the American 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: state to do imperialism. And I think it's worth actually 39 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: taking a second to unpack this because things are probably 40 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: going to get worse. There is a non zero chance 41 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: that we effectively start a war with Mexico in the 42 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: next like few months. 43 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great, it's spanging, everything's going as well. 44 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, But I want to start with talking about the 45 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: way that Trump has been using tariffs as as a 46 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: sort of political weapon and not as an economic tool, 47 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: but varies very specifically as a political weapon, and how 48 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: this differs from the previous economic regime because I think 49 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: there's been a lot of you know, as the terriffs, 50 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 2: the threat of the tariffs go up, in the markets 51 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: sort of tank in fear of them. There's been a 52 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 2: lot of sort of defense of like free trade in 53 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: ways where I don't think people actually understand what's happening. 54 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: And to understand how what Trump is doing is different 55 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: from the stuff that's come before, we need to actually 56 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: understand what trade is. Now, when an economist talks about trade, 57 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 2: they go, oh, yeah, obviously trade is when two countries 58 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: exchange a thing, right, yep. But that's not actually what 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: most of the stuff on earth that is labeled as 60 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: global trade, that's not what it is, right, look at 61 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: like US Mexico trade. We're gonna go a bit more 62 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: too detail about what that stuff is, but do you 63 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: know what most not most, but do you know what 64 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: a huge portion of US Mexico trade is? It is 65 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: the same company, the same company moving an auto part 66 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: from one side of the border to the other, back. 67 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: And forth across the body. Yeah. I was gonna say, yes, 68 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: back and forth. 69 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: Right, So it's a lot of different people being paid 70 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: different wages can make the same thing. Yeah, or if 71 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: someone paid lower wages can make it, and yeah, someone 72 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: paid more con Q see it and then they can send. 73 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: It back yep. Yeah, very very common. 74 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is actually a real substantive problem with 75 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: the way that I think everyone thinks about trade because 76 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: what is happening here and this is an argument that 77 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: the anti globalization movement used to make. You know, David 78 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: Graeber like makes this argument a lot, and they're right, 79 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: which is that most things that we think of as 80 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: quote unquote global trade are just a single corporation moving 81 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: a resource around the world. 82 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: So that they can produce something, yeah, and explore labor 83 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 3: at thes some impossible exploitation rate. 84 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And this means that using nation states 85 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: as a way to understand trade is an absolutely terrible 86 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: way to think about the global economy. Right there, there 87 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: are some things we're thinking about specifically nation state trade, 88 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: like trade is important because you know, even even the 89 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: same corporation moving goods around. Right, that does contribute to 90 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: how much foreign currency a country right, right, And so okay, 91 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: there's things like balance of payments where if you run 92 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 2: out of it, if you're a country and you run 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: out of American dollars, suddenly you can't employ like fuel 94 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: anymore in your country, like explodes, And that's a very 95 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: common way that like this happens in Sri Lanka, for example, 96 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: pretty recently. This is a way for your economy to 97 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: blow up. But that's kind of an edge case in 98 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,679 Speaker 2: terms of how global trade actually operates. But the problem 99 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: is that it is to the advantage of the ruling 100 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: class for you and everyone else to think about trade 101 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: as something that's like a war between you and the 102 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: country next to you, instead of a corporation. Like fucking 103 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: over everyone involved in the this entire thing. Now, there's 104 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: a pretty interesting book that I read recently called Border 105 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: Economies Cities, Bridging the US Mexico Divide by James Gerber 106 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: Gerber Nix Gerber, Okay, And one of the things he 107 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: points out is that the two largest trade relations between 108 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: any country, any two countries on Earth are the US 109 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: in Mexico and the US in Canada, and those are 110 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: the countries with the highest tariffs that Trumple's attempting to apply. Yeah, 111 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: and it's worth actually understanding what this does by looking 112 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: at what actually is traded between, for example, the US 113 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 2: and Mexico. And the place I want to start is 114 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: that one of the largest kinds of goods that is 115 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: moved from from Mexico to the US is computer equipment. 116 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: And nobody fucking talks about this ever, No one, like 117 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: zero fucking people talk about this. I am convinced this 118 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: is because of racism. But Mexico is a huge sort 119 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: of like assembly place for a whole bunch of things 120 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: like monitor screens, like computer equipment in general, and a 121 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: lot of that stuff comes into the US. And there's 122 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 2: also you know, the thing, the thing that we started 123 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: this episode on, that's I think the thing I guess 124 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: talked about the most now is transportation equipment, right, And 125 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: this is a combination of consumer vehicles and also like 126 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: heavy duty cargo trucks, yeah, which are unbelievably important for 127 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: the maintenance of the American economy, right of the entire 128 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: global economies. Like having these trucks is is if sort 129 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: of vital infrastructure thing for the United States. You can 130 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: move stuff around. A lot of that comest in Mexico. 131 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: And then also like a lot of it is like 132 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: whole cars that are like like finished assembly like in Mexico, 133 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: and they get shipped across the border, and there's a 134 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: lot of things there. And these are also like all 135 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: the same international car companies that work in the US. 136 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: So it's like Toyotas like Honda, Yeah, I mean these 137 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: are your American trucks often, right or like yeah, yeah, yeah, 138 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: four does this too, Yeah, what's GM now Stalares. 139 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like Chevy GM like these as well as 140 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: like Toyota. Toyota I think has a big planet. I 141 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: forget exactly where, but along the border is somewhere cool correctly, Yeah, yeah, 142 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 3: this is extremely common. 143 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. And what this is right, like this is multinational 144 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: capitalist companies who are moving their products across the border. 145 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: And this gets counted as Mexico doing trade. 146 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: You know. 147 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: One of the things in one of the questions in 148 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: this book is about why Mexico's economy never had the 149 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: kind of economic bump that China did from the amount 150 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: of industrial production. If you look at like the East 151 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: Asian tigers, right. And I think part of that is 152 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: actually something that is not mentioned in the book, which 153 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: is if if you look at the East Asian economies 154 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: that develop their economies that you're talking like Sey, your 155 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: South Korea's, et cetera schedule like a lot of those countries, 156 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: like Japan, there was a lot of US military investment 157 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: there in a way that's just not true of Mexico. 158 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: Like Mexico is not like a place where you offshore 159 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: you're supplying your supplies to because you need to move 160 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: stuff to you know, fight the war in Vietnam. But 161 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: you know one of the other reasons is that, Yeah, Okay, 162 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: so like where is all the profit from the international 163 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: trade going. It's like, well, it's going to a bunch 164 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: of American and Japanese car companies. Yeah, because it's it's 165 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: those those multinationals are the people who actually reap all 166 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: of the benefits. 167 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, to a degree, like post NAFTA, right, post ninety four. 168 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: It has created a class of people in Mexico who 169 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: have benefited from it, but it has it has not 170 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: lifted up like like the average income. Right, It's created 171 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: a greater disparity of income than at any point. Yeah, yeah, 172 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: previous to that, and you'll hear people. So I was 173 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: talking to friend about this yesterday in Tijuana, like, how 174 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: like what NAFTA did, Like if you look at nineteen 175 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: ninety four, I think it's a really good example of 176 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 3: what you're talking about of Like, yeah, we opened up 177 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: that border to international companies to do taraff free back 178 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: and forth, right, but we didn't open it up to people. Yeah. 179 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: At the same time, we had Operation Gatekeeper, right like 180 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: enforced much harsher border enforcement. And the two things in 181 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: parallel really kind of indicate what the free trade is 182 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: going for. 183 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, and this is another old 184 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: anti globalization thing, like we were talking about. This is 185 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: like yeah, free like free trade is about the free 186 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: movement of capital and unfree movement of people, right yeap, 187 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: is that it's about locking people down in place so 188 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 2: you can like you can you can dictate wages to 189 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: them and then moving capital around the world to avoid 190 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: them exactly. 191 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 192 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're gonna get into this more in a second, 193 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: but I want to talk about some you know, some 194 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: of the other things that are that are exported from 195 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: Mexico fruits, vegetables, alcohol, or like huge exports. 196 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: Yeah. 197 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: And then also, and this is something that I don't 198 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: think is people don't understand what's happening very well. Is 199 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: there's a lot of oil from Mexico that's shipped to 200 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: the US. But the thing that's happening there, and this 201 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: is the thing that's very good about the oil industry, 202 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: is that the refinery facilities are not in the same 203 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: country as the extraction facilities a lot of the time, 204 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: So this oil is getting shipped around because they don't 205 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: have the refinery facilities to like refine the specific kind 206 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: of like crude oil or whatever that they're extracting. So like, yeah, 207 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: it's it's again one of these situations where it's not 208 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: really like Mexico is sending its oil to the US. 209 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: It's like, I mean kind of right, that's like one 210 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: of the more direct ish ones. But largely what's happening 211 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: is that like again like it's an oil company moving 212 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: stuff to you know, moving stuff around to do refinement 213 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: of it so they. 214 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: Can sell it. 215 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: Now, there's there's been some other stuff happening with Mexico 216 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: that's a kind of reaction to Trump's previous thing. And 217 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: I think the extent of this has been overblown to 218 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: some extent, but a lot of very low end manufacturing 219 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: stuff has been leaving China for a long time. This 220 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: is one of my media things on the show is 221 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: that this has been happening for a while because labor 222 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: price has been rising in China and one of the 223 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: places that these things went to is Mexico. So there's 224 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: been a lot of like direct investment from trying to 225 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, and all of these things. You know, 226 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: like these these kind of movements, I'm talking about them 227 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: because these kind of like seismic global economic shifts, right 228 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: of the kind that we're going to be see are 229 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: driven by a lot of things, you know, I mean 230 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: stuff like currency evaluations, like local tax laws, like state 231 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: corporate planning policies, like demands or just blah blah blah 232 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: blah blah. But one of the single most important things 233 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: is the state of class struggle in a country and 234 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: what effect that has on wages or like you know, 235 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: like straight up uprisings. Right. 236 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 237 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: The geographer David Harvey, he gets credit for popularizing the 238 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: term the spatial fix, though other people were already using it, 239 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: and I don't like his work much, but he did. 240 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: He is the guy who gets credited with this. He describes, 241 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: you know, the sort of free trade regime that that 242 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: persisted roughly through like now. I mean it was it 243 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: was taking shape in sort of the eighties, like the 244 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: eighties through like roughly now, as the spatial fix for 245 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: declining profitability. Right, you know what else has declining profitability? 246 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. The worst things get the more 247 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: people listen to our podcast, and you can say that 248 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 3: we are back. 249 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: Okay, So let's talk about this, the sort of declining 250 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: profitability and the fix that capitalism sort of finds fit this, right. 251 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 2: You know, through the seventies there's this sort of spiraling 252 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: unemployment and inflation and the economy is sort of going 253 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 2: to shit and it's happening everywhere because they're sort of 254 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: like structural overcapacity and manufacturing. And the solution to this 255 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: is a spatial fix, right, which is destroying some manufacturing 256 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 2: capacity and just moving it to other places. Yeah, and 257 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: you know, and this is this is sort of what 258 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: James was talking about earlier. 259 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: Right. 260 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: The goal is to sort of weaken the power of 261 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: the working class by locking people down into their countries 262 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: and then moving capital to poorer countries, the weaker labor protections, 263 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: and also a weaker level of sort of like workers organization, right. 264 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it leaves like the previously well organized workers, 265 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 3: Like if you look at the industries and the places 266 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: where my grandparents come from, the dog workers and minors, right, 267 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: those are not really jobs that are employing large numbers 268 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: of people in the UK anymore. And like as a result, 269 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 3: those working class towns are just destituting, you know that 270 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 3: previously thriving a well organized working class. So we had 271 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 3: Northern England, it's have to kind of like it has 272 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: to relocate or reorganize, right, and it destroys those like 273 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: nexuses of working class power that existed in Britain up 274 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: until the eighties with a minus strike, right. 275 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was this was done deliberately, yeah, right, 276 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 2: I mean there's there's always a debate in the literature 277 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: about to what extent, like neoliberalism was like planned, or 278 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: to what extent it was you know, a sort of 279 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: reaction to a bunch of crises. But specifically this kind 280 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 2: of like offshoring and they get the container ship is 281 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: a big part of this, but like this specific kind 282 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 2: of thing and even the transition called oil was like 283 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: was a very deliberate thing done by like done done 284 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: by sort of American and British politicians in order to 285 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: sort of break the power like minors unions. And you know, 286 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 2: one of the major places that this went obviously like 287 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: a lot of these things go to Mexico. The sort 288 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: of first round of these go to like the original 289 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 2: like Asian tiger economies that I was talking about, I 290 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: mean places like it like Indonesia to with a lot 291 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 2: of those comomies sort of like Thaighland, those coconomies kind 292 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: of blew up in the nineties. Yeah, but you know, 293 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: one of the largest, most important ones was China. And 294 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: you know, it's important to sort of remember I've talked 295 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: about this on the show before. A lot of this 296 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: is also the product of Tianman Square. Because the thing 297 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: that's important to remember about Tianneman is that contra both 298 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: sort of liberal histories of Tannemen and also the sort 299 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: of CCP line. Most of the people who died at 300 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: Tannama were workers, right, Most people who were executed after words, 301 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: were workers. They were like students died, but it was 302 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: mostly workers who were killed. And a lot of what 303 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: happened there was that, you know, Tianneman was like the 304 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: last time that China's like trade union federation, which is 305 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: like now such a joke that it's like it's genuinely 306 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: a subject of academic debate and discussion as to whether 307 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: you can even literally consider it a trade union. Like 308 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: that's it, that's how fuck it is. And the last 309 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: time that Chinese trade unions took a political stand was 310 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: in favor of the Tianaman protests. And then the army 311 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: shows up and just like like slaughters their base. 312 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 313 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: And what this does is it makes the old Chinese 314 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: working class, right, it breaks the alliance with the students 315 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: that they'd had that was you know, and that was 316 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: a durable political force dating back to like the nineteen twenties, right, 317 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: And it breaks this extremely militant, well organized Chinese urban 318 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: working class, replaces them with a more exploitable and less 319 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: organized like migrant working class. And that is the class 320 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: that like to this day right now is like the 321 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: engine of global capital or like those like three hundred 322 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: million migrant workers yea. 323 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: And they can be in different parts of the world, 324 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 3: right like, well, the. 325 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: Other way, the three hundred million number, that's just the 326 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: microantworkers in China Jesus. To be clear, there are a 327 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: lot more internationally. Yeah, but yeah, China's market working population 328 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: is like almost the size of the US. It's like 329 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,359 Speaker 2: the fourth largest country in the world just by like itself. 330 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 3: It's yeah, that's mad. I was just thinking of today, 331 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 3: like the scam compounds which exists on the border between 332 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: me and mahar and Thailand. Like they actually Thailand just 333 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: cut power off to them today. I mean, I can 334 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: see that the strategy there, but it's just going to 335 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: end up hurting people whore in those compounds more, of 336 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: course it is. Yeah, of course those people who are 337 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: in those compounds used to be able to escape and 338 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 3: go to places where they could like get back to 339 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 3: their lives, right like like be re taken care of, 340 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 3: And of course that's were funded by USA. So they 341 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: don't exist as of this week, which is pretty brutal, 342 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: but like, yeah, these people, right, these these migrant workers 343 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 3: who come from all over the world hoping for a 344 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 3: chance that the things that capitalism have promised them are 345 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: the people who have to be exploited so that people 346 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: in wealthy countries can have their treats. 347 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and those workers are the basis of mono global capitalism, right, 348 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: Like you know, like those Chinese workers for example, like 349 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: it is it is illegal for them to form an 350 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: independent union. If you try to form an independent union, 351 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: you will go to prison so fast that like those 352 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: dust clouds like. 353 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: Hey, like Wiley Charyot will take you to prison. 354 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, even trying to get your union to like 355 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: do something like trying to have your own independent people 356 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: elected to you to that union like canon will get 357 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 2: you arrested and like and even like Chinese lbor repression 358 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: like is pretty intense. But it's like you know that 359 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: we're also talking about countries like Columbia. It's like, well, yeah, o, 360 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 2: because what happens to union organizers in Colombia's like they 361 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: get being shopped by paramilitaries with machine guns, right, And 362 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 2: that's that's that's what the sort of spatial fix was, right, 363 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: was moving jobs to places where the ruling classes sort 364 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 2: of control was more firm and their ability to use 365 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: violence was higher. Yeah, And so this is what the 366 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: American imperial system sort of had been, right. It's based 367 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: on American capital flowing around the world. And this is 368 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: also like international capital too, right, Like we've literally been 369 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: talking about like Japanese corporations right doing like the same shit, right, 370 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: But you know, it's like international capital flowing around the world, 371 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: extracting resources and labor from other countries and accumulating it 372 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: in American corporations like that. That's what free trade is. 373 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 374 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: And it's also you know, secondarily, right, it is a 375 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: debt system. It's based on forcing countries to like pay 376 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: back loans that were taken out by dictators Gogury de 377 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: Draber's debt least five thousand years. It's very good. But yeah, 378 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: it's it's it's based on like turning entire countries into 379 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: just debt servicing engines or like all of the wealth 380 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: that is produced by the entire nation is just going 381 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: to like pay debts to Bank of America. Yeah, and 382 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: you know the thing about this is that this is 383 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: actually a very very efficient model of empire. It's one 384 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 2: of the most sophisticated imperial systems that the world has 385 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: ever seen. 386 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: Right. 387 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: It workstremely well. It makes the US an unbelievable amount 388 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 2: of money, It protects global capitalism, and the people currently 389 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 2: running it don't want it to work like that. Now, 390 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: do you know who else, it doesn't want the current 391 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 2: system to work like it does because they can make 392 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 2: more money. I can guess it's the products and services 393 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: for this point, excited to hit which one we get? 394 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 3: You know, it can be it could be anything. I 395 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: really at this point, who knows? 396 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: We are back? So we've entered I guess what you 397 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: could call the phase of mask off imperialism US imperialism 398 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: usually at least sort of like war human face. And 399 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: and it did it for good reason, right you know, 400 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan did not give a single shit about democracy 401 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 2: and human rights, right like, like you know, and this 402 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: is this has been true of the US for like 403 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: ages and ages and ages, right you know that like 404 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: they prop up right wing military dictatorships constantly. But the 405 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: thing is democracy and human rights are things that like 406 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: people like, and so you know, it was it's it's 407 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: a weapon that he and and his sort of brand 408 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 2: of conservatives, like anti communist conservatives like, wielded it against communism. 409 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 2: And it was a very very powerful ideological weapon because 410 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: if if if your choice ceases to be between like 411 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 2: communism and capitalism, and your choice is now between like 412 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: do you want to live in a dictatorship? But do 413 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: you want to live in a democracy? Like that's a 414 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: very different question, and it's it's a very very important 415 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: question for sort of how how the Cold War was 416 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: won and how international power is wielded, right, because there's 417 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: there's always been an illusion that there's an international community 418 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: in that countries are like working together and this is 419 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: this is a very very powerful ideological thing, you know, 420 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: I mean, and this is something like you live through this, 421 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: God probably listen to you didn't leave to this now, 422 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: dear God. But like like the Iraq War, right, the 423 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: US didn't unilaterally invade Rock now. Now. It was called 424 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: the quote unquote Coalition of the Wilding and included like 425 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: like they dragged Australia in the war by threatening to 426 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: like destroy their like milk shipping contracts with the Iraqi government. 427 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 3: Like so you know, yeah, you had all kinds of 428 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 3: people running around in the Rock for a while there, 429 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 3: I guess. Yeah, obviously the United Kingdom played a big 430 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 3: role in it, like an outside troll, given being a 431 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 3: relatively small country. 432 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, and this this, this is the 433 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: way that you do you know, even just overtly straight 434 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: up imperialis stuff like it like invading a rock right 435 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: was still done under the auspices of like multinational like coalitions. 436 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: Yep. 437 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 2: And the thing about different about Trump is Trump doesn't 438 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: give a fuck about any of that, right, absolutely not. 439 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: He has turned on Rob Ford, a man who is 440 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: like who boldly answers the question what if Trump smoke 441 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: crack like that is Rob Ford. Like he's he's turning 442 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: on his allies, like like right wingers who should be 443 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: his allies in Canada, right, who are exactly the kind 444 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: of people who you would expect to do sort of 445 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: like right wing multilateral interventions in countries, right. Yeah, and 446 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: you know he is caused with his like threat to 447 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: put terifs on, like he's caused these people to become 448 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 2: anti American. And this is the same thing with Mexico. Right, 449 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: Even the sort of like the nominally center left governments 450 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: in Mexico like have cooperated with American impulism. But Trump 451 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: doesn't want to fucking do that anymore. He wants to 452 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: run everything just very purely and very openly as as 453 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: an American empire. 454 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like America's always bullied Mexican. Right, when we talk 455 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 3: about the deployment of troops to the border Biden absolutely 456 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 3: bullied Amlo into into bringing those troops to the border 457 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 3: because they came before Donald Trump even came into office. 458 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 3: But now Donald Trump's just doing it on true social Yeah, 459 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 3: like it's it's it's different or Panama fuck. Like, you know, 460 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 3: I was in Panama September of twenty four and I 461 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: went to the Canal Museum, and Panama like is very 462 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 3: proud of its history of independence. Right it's relatively short, yeah, 463 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 3: and hardened and paid for in blood. But like, yeah, 464 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 3: I traveled. I'm a US city Cinea traveling. You know, 465 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: one gave me any shit. It was fine. Everyone's very 466 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: nice to me. Now the burning American flags in Panama City, 467 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: like yeah, yeah. 468 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: Because CRUP is trying to take the Panama Canal back. 469 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: And before we get into like you know, I mean, 470 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: I guess we can get into. Hear some of the 471 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: stuff that he's doing. Right, He's pulled out of the 472 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 2: International Criminal Court and it's putting sanctions on it. He 473 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 2: has been trying to use the sanctions that he's been 474 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: threatening to apply to Canada to get Canada to join 475 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: the US, Like he is trying to conquer Canada, right, 476 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: fucking silly, Yeah, he's he's been trying to he's been 477 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: trying to force the government of Denmark to buy Greenland, 478 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: sell Greenland, right, like he wants to purchase Greenland from them. Yeah, 479 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: he wants to buy Greenland. Yeah, there was. There was 480 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 2: the whole sort of showdown with Colombia over Columbia's like 481 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: being pissed off about the treatment of deportees to Columbia 482 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: and he used sanctions. There there is again him saying 483 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: the US is going to take over Gaza and this 484 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 2: is a very very substantively different thing than the than 485 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: the kind of American empire that we've had before. Right, Yeah, 486 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: the last time the US tried to take Canada was 487 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 2: eighteen twelve. Right, it's been like two hot years. This 488 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: is how Britain returns to the world stage, right, And 489 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: the thing is last time, the last time in the US 490 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: try to take Canada, they burned the capitol down, so 491 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: like you know, but like like this is something that 492 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 2: even even under like like people like Bush, right, who 493 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 2: is like a Bush is like a very very vert 494 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 2: American imperialist. Right, Yeah, Bush would never try to invade 495 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 2: Canada like that. Yeah, that's that's completely unhinged, right, and 496 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: this is this, This is just a very very different 497 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: kind of imperialism than than what existed before. And I 498 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: wanted to go into I think why this is the case? Yeah, 499 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: and I think the reason why this is the case. Okay, 500 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: So the reason that there's been such a defensive free 501 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 2: trade is like people being like, oh my god, he 502 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: puts tariff in place, it'll raise prices, and like, yeah, 503 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: that's true, right, we'll crash the global economy. The global 504 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: economy has been turned into a very very efficient engine 505 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: of extracting profit from countries and putting them in the 506 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: hands of corporations. Right, it's working exactly how Trump wants 507 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 2: to work. 508 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 3: Now. 509 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 2: If the US wants to rebuild a manufacturing economy, that 510 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: is technically possible. Right, Reagan was able to do this. 511 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: But what Reagan did instead of doing tariffs is that well, 512 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: I mean kind of you. But like the main thing 513 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: that he did was this thing called the Plaza Accords. 514 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: And the Plaza Accords was this this thing in the 515 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 2: eighties where he forced Japan. Japan was the important one, 516 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: but like Japan, West Germany, I think there are a 517 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: couple other countries like he forced them to increase the 518 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: value of their currency relative to the dollar, because like 519 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: you know, so if if you have a currency and 520 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: it's worth a bunch of like another person's currency, so 521 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: like you know, you have like the dollar and it's 522 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: worth like a million, like yen or whatever the fuck, right, 523 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: the currency that's worthless has a more competitive manufacturing economy. 524 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 2: And Reagan was able to like restart the American like 525 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: manufacturing economy for a while by doing this. But the 526 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 2: problem is that it blew up the entire world economy. 527 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: And so to save the world economy, Clinton rolled back 528 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: the accords and it, you know, and that was the 529 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: thing that actually finally sort of like a viscerated American 530 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: manufacturing and the exchange here was you know, and all 531 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: the stuff that I've been I've been talking about for 532 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: the last like a few minutes. So there's a very 533 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: very good essay written right after two thousand and eight 534 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: called What's good for Goldman Sachs is Good for America 535 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: by the economist Robbert Brenner. And what the strategy became, 536 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: and this is a strategy that was originally pioneered by 537 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 2: Japan that we took was instead of having like a 538 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: manufacturing economy like actually a production based economy. You have 539 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: an economy based on the value of assets, right. So 540 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: assets are things that you own, right, It's the stocks, bonds, 541 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: like real estate, which is important for our purposes, and 542 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: the goal is to make the value of those things 543 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: go up. Right. And so what you do is you 544 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: speculate on you take out loans, You speculate on the 545 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: prices of stocks going up, the prices of houses going 546 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: up right, and you know, you make it very easy 547 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 2: to borrow money. Now, obviously this produced a series of 548 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: like staggering economic collapses, including like the dot com collapse 549 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight with you know remember that one. 550 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: But the thing is, in the wake of the financial collapse, 551 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: the US mostly figured out how to sort of stabilize 552 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: the system. But the thing is, you know, they were 553 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: sort of able to stabilize the system economically, right, what 554 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: they couldn't stabilize was the political sector. Where if you 555 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: look at the two people who are currently running the 556 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: United States, it is Elon Musk, who is the human 557 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: personification of the stock price goes up bubble economy, right, 558 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: and the other one is Donald Trump, who is the 559 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: human manifestation of the real estate class. Right, whose wealth 560 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: like believe enormously and the thing is right, But because 561 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 2: Elon Musk is like a tech bubble, go up guy, right, 562 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: those people don't think like the people who built like 563 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 2: American financial capitalists, right, like the people who designed the tratism. 564 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: They don't think the same way Trump does. Trump is 565 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 2: a fucking real estate guy, right, And this is how 566 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: he sees the world. 567 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 3: Right. 568 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: He thinks in terms of land and borders and territorial control. 569 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: And he thinks in terms of like what physical thing 570 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 2: can I steal from someone in order to make money? Right, 571 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: and that you know, this is why he's trying to 572 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: steal the Panama Canal and and he thinks this way 573 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: instead of like things that are more abstract like debt 574 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: servicing and like you know, the sort of lines of 575 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 2: power in the coalition building. 576 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 3: Right. 577 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 2: He looks at a map of Greenland and goes, this 578 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 2: looks really big. I want it and so and now 579 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: he's going to try to use the American empire to 580 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: just seize this. 581 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, he sees things in terms of like raw power. 582 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 3: It's a very uh. 583 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: Undeveloped notion of like power, right, Like, yeah, I thinking 584 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 2: the other day, like whoever is in the same room 585 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 2: as Joseph Nye must be having a fucking field day 586 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: right now. 587 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 3: At the guy who he was. He wrote books about 588 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 3: soft power, right, the idea of the US power to 589 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: persuade rather than power to kind of whether there rare 590 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 3: than like hard power, which comes in tanks or tariffs. 591 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 3: I guess Joseph n is no longer relevant. 592 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, no, we're we're back. We're back in pure 593 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: hard And something I think is renal very alarming that 594 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: I want to close on is the extent to which, 595 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: like the US media is just sort of just once. 596 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: Do you propaganda for it? Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going 597 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: to read a quote from a CNN artic Again, this 598 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: is CNN quote. The subject heading is the US has 599 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: been expanding for its entire history. This is an article, oh, 600 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: the title of which is Trump is Trump wants to 601 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: redraw the map of the Western hemisphere for fan's. 602 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 3: Sake, like twenty twenty five Monroe doctrine posting on CNN 603 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: literally literally literally, Okay, okay, you are so far ahead 604 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 3: of this thing, because the next I'm going to read 605 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: the one I was going to read first, uplift civilized 606 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: and christianized. What's next paragraph? 607 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: The next section heading is and I quote what is 608 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: Trump's doctrine? And explains the Monroe doctor. 609 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 3: For fox sake, this is I cannot explain how like 610 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 3: I have taught this as a thing in history classes 611 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: for more than a decade from the perspective of like 612 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 3: that was fucked up and shameful, and even the conservative 613 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: suite to like, yeah, hard agree, look at these racists 614 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 3: as fuck cartoons about Filipino people. That the way that 615 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 3: we're using here to justify this, and now we are 616 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: back like it is and like, yeah, CNN is just 617 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: out there like fucking cranking the manufacturing consent. 618 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: That's not even the worst part about it, Like I 619 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: want to read the session. So one of the other 620 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: sections headings is the US has been expanding for its 621 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: entire history sick quote expansion. Expansion is built into the 622 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: American DNA SYS Retired Ambassador Gordon Gray, now a professor 623 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 2: of practice at George Washington University and former Foreign Service 624 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: career officer. 625 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, like an angel sweeping across the planes, fucking manifest destinies. 626 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's we're you know, and this is this 627 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: is this coming all sort of coming into like the 628 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: way that Trump thinks about which Trump thinks about the US, 629 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 2: like like an eighteenth century land empire. 630 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yah, yeah, yeh. 631 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: Eighteenth century land empires, you know, got money by conquering 632 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: people and like extracting tribute from them directly. And then 633 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: also you know they were mercancilst empires, right, so they 634 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: they got they got a their money. And this is 635 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: something that Tropic suposedly talks about. It is like he 636 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: wants he thinks he can raise revenue from like terrorists, 637 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: which like, no, he can't, but like what he can 638 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: do is use the threat of tariffs to like force 639 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: countries to do whatever the fuck he wants. And this 640 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: is the kind of imperialism that we're in now. It 641 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: is a definite substanctive break from what we've seen in 642 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: the US for a century, more than a century. Yeah, 643 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: and I think I think it's important for people to 644 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: understand exactly how this functions. 645 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah, it's sick. We're going into the new 646 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 3: opium Wars. It's going to be so fun. 647 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, Bob, this is this spanikot appen here. 648 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: Do not get kettles on bridges go out into the 649 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: world and make trouble. 650 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 3: And people want to read more about the early like globalizing, 651 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 3: the previous year of neoliberal globalization, Like Naomi Klein has 652 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 3: some good stuff, and I think Joe Stiglitz does as well, 653 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 3: so we can Yeah. 654 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I also recommend David Graeber's direct action in ethnography, 655 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: which is him writing about the original like anti like 656 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: ult globalization protests and his like time in them. Yeah, 657 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: so you know, if you need direct action ideas, they 658 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: did some fun stuff. Yeah, dressing guys up like marshmallows 659 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: and police batons and bounce off the great Yeah, bring 660 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: back clown Block. 661 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: That'll get us through it. 662 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it could Happen Here is a production of cool 663 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit 664 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: our website fool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out 665 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 666 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could 667 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.