Speaker 1: Break was breaking down all the biggest NBA storylines. Your
Speaker 1: child So the heat Check, the Heat Check?
Speaker 2: What's trist a Cracker?
Speaker 1: The best podcast covering all the drama around the association?
Speaker 2: Drank Michael Smith aka Rhino, one of the biggest fucking
Speaker 2: names in the basketball content space. One point seven milli
Speaker 2: followers on TikTok, one point three milli followers on YouTube,
Speaker 2: gets more views than first take on YouTube, gets more
Speaker 2: views than your favorite fucking morning show.
Speaker 3: Why because he is a straight beast.
Speaker 2: Similarly massive followings on other social media platforms as well.
Speaker 2: He has been grinding making straight to camera video since
Speaker 2: twenty ten. That is a long fucking time. This man's
Speaker 2: been in the internet game since longer than I think
Speaker 2: I even knew the Internet social media exists. He is
Speaker 2: basically my role model when it comes to content.
Speaker 3: Doesn't know this.
Speaker 2: I'm about to drop some info on him. One of
Speaker 2: the very first videos that I saw on TikTok that
Speaker 2: was highly successful in the sports space that I sent
Speaker 2: to my producer and said, this man is crushing, we
Speaker 2: need to diagnose what he does.
Speaker 3: Was this man, Frank Michael Smith.
Speaker 2: I have been following you since the real reason Russell
Speaker 2: Westbrook playd so hard in the spring of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Frank Michael Smith.
Speaker 1: Wow, that you just set the record for the intro.
Speaker 1: Let's go. I'm fired up right now. Sometimes you need
Speaker 1: to hear it, Trista.
Speaker 2: I know, like you can do the intro later, but like,
Speaker 2: who knows what the intro is really going to be?
Speaker 3: Right, Like, who knows?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: That was beautiful. Thank you. I'm ready to dive into it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you put the twenty ten number out there. That makes
Speaker 1: me feel old at this point. But I was grind.
Speaker 1: I was one of the first people on YouTube. I
Speaker 1: was in two thousand and eight in middle school making
Speaker 1: highlight videos and like people didn't know YouTube yet.
Speaker 2: That's what's so crazy is the space at that point
Speaker 2: was not as saturated as it is now. And what's
Speaker 2: fascinating to me about your journey is that a lot
Speaker 2: of YouTubers that are huge they got huge because of
Speaker 2: when they started, but it was but you didn't, Like
Speaker 2: you got huge through persistence. So what do you think
Speaker 2: was the difference between what you did then and what
Speaker 2: you did now?
Speaker 3: And like how different do you think YouTube is now
Speaker 3: from when you started?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so much different. So back then,
Speaker 1: I remember I used to do these highlight videos, so
Speaker 1: it would be like Lebron James Ultimate Highlight Mix, and
Speaker 1: if you dig hard enough, you still might find one.
Speaker 1: They're not under my name, but you might find one.
Speaker 1: I was rarely ever in the actual videos. They were
Speaker 1: just like you know, highlight compilations, and they I had
Speaker 1: a cool soundtrack on there, which, by the way, is
Speaker 1: like the easiest way to start hating a song is
Speaker 1: to put it in your video. You have to listen
Speaker 1: to it like seventy five times. So I just crushed
Speaker 1: my favorite songs. But anyway, it was all about search.
Speaker 1: I knew people were gonna search Lebron James, so I
Speaker 1: would make his highlight mix and it would get views.
Speaker 1: And you know, as a thirteen year old kid, getting
Speaker 1: like one hundred thousand views was amazing. It was like
Speaker 1: almost felt impossible, but it was happening. And now it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's so much more sophisticated. It's not really
Speaker 1: about search anymore. It's so much more it's it's probably
Speaker 1: a better system. Now it's about watch time, loyalty, all
Speaker 1: these other things. But I mean, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it's still about like, hey, do people watch
Speaker 1: and like your videos? It's not that complicated.
Speaker 3: Well in discovery too.
Speaker 2: I think the thing that's always been interesting to me
Speaker 2: as someone who came like you from you know, anonymity, right,
Speaker 2: like wasn't I wasn't a college athlete. I didn't get
Speaker 2: plopped into the system where you get pushed. So discovery
Speaker 2: has always been something fascinating to me. How do you
Speaker 2: think if you were to start a YouTube pay today,
Speaker 2: you could take it to zero to viral differently than
Speaker 2: what you do now, Like if you were to do
Speaker 2: it in a different way, I'm.
Speaker 1: Not sure I would do it in a different way.
Speaker 1: I could go from zero again. But it's it all
Speaker 1: comes down a value at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: And you'll hear people talk about this and it's like
Speaker 1: a pretty broad stroke to paint here. But the end
Speaker 1: of the day, like are you giving someone something interesting?
Speaker 1: Like that's what you do on this podcast. People like
Speaker 1: your podcast because you deliver value, Like you're funny, you're informational,
Speaker 1: you're relatable. Those are all valuable things. So you know,
Speaker 1: everyone has their own different way of getting there, but
Speaker 1: you know, I know how to do that. Now so
Speaker 1: I could go from zero.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy. It's like almost become the thing that
Speaker 3: I read.
Speaker 2: I read an article of you being interviewed, and the
Speaker 2: thing that I thought was like so fascinating and something
Speaker 2: that I struggle with a lot is like having a formula.
Speaker 2: And that sounds like for a creator, there's nothing scarier
Speaker 2: than the word formula, right, Like you feel your trap
Speaker 2: now into a box.
Speaker 3: But for what has worked for you? Have you have
Speaker 3: stuck to this recipe? Recipe is probably the better way
Speaker 3: of putting.
Speaker 2: It, because that sounds I think better and more like
Speaker 2: open and then like this is working, I'm sticking to this.
Speaker 2: Like how did you find out what that formula was?
Speaker 1: You know? I didn't put that much thought into it.
Speaker 1: Like I've tried so many different things and most of
Speaker 1: them failed. So it wasn't like I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: like first try here, got it. But finally when I
Speaker 1: found something that did work, I knew right away. So
Speaker 1: I met my first video on TikTok. We'll get to
Speaker 1: the TikTok portion of my career. It was twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: I had worked in sports media for a couple of
Speaker 1: years out in LA started making videos on my own
Speaker 1: and I did. I did an origin story about Yiannis.
Speaker 1: I know, it's an interesting story, a little kid growing
Speaker 1: up on the street to Athens trying to sell knockoff
Speaker 1: DVDs to people to make a dollar. It's amazing, really
Speaker 1: is a great story. I would see these on YouTube
Speaker 1: and they were like eight and a half minutes long.
Speaker 1: Eight it's an important number there because once you go
Speaker 1: over that, you can throw an ad in the middle.
Speaker 1: So people would stretch them out on purpose and the
Speaker 1: story would lose value because you know, it just didn't
Speaker 1: need to take that long. I saw these and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'll do that in one minute. I'll
Speaker 1: try that on TikTok. You know they limit you to
Speaker 1: one minute. It's the whole game. And it worked immediately.
Speaker 1: People really appreciated how I didn't waste their time. I
Speaker 1: told the story with forward motion. It was fast paced,
Speaker 1: and that's the whole thing about TikTok because it's a
Speaker 1: fast paced environment. So it just fit. It just fit
Speaker 1: all of TikTok's values. People appreciated it, and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now this gout to do one of these every single day,
Speaker 1: and that's the repeatability that you talked about was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's one thing to go viral, to have a hit,
Speaker 1: Now can you do that every day of your life?
Speaker 1: And that's what I did, Like the next two years.
Speaker 1: I don't think I missed a day.
Speaker 3: Did you see that article that just came out about
Speaker 3: Sham's I was going to ask I read the whole Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Thought that was so just for people who haven't read it.
Speaker 2: It chronicles Schams's career. He ends up getting mentored by
Speaker 2: Woes Wojenham are now in this like Cold War as newsbreakers.
Speaker 2: But the thing that I thought was fascinating to me
Speaker 2: is that like Shams has absolutely zero work life balance.
Speaker 2: He probably will never date in any meaningful way. He's
Speaker 2: on his phone like eighteen hours a day. Like, what
Speaker 2: was the most interesting part, because you talk about consistency,
Speaker 2: and that was the first thing I thought about when
Speaker 2: you said two years without missing a video, Like, what
Speaker 2: was the thing that you felt was compelling in that
Speaker 2: article as it relates to you in your career.
Speaker 1: Well, Shams is born that way. That stuck out. And
Speaker 1: by the way, one of my friends I went to
Speaker 1: college with him, he went to New Trier. He graduated
Speaker 1: with Shams. I saw him this week and at a
Speaker 1: wedding and he was like, you see the article my
Speaker 1: boy Shams. And I was like, oh, yeah you guys,
Speaker 1: Like were you the same year? He was like yeah,
Speaker 1: I had classes with them. I was like, was he
Speaker 1: the same way in high school? He's like the exact
Speaker 1: same way. Just loved basketball, obsessed with basketball. You know.
Speaker 1: They mentioned this in the article like it didn't really
Speaker 1: make the teams, but was just dialed in. And they
Speaker 1: go in the article and talk about how he's you know, hey,
Speaker 1: I can't do this interview. I got class. Oh skip college, No,
Speaker 1: I'm in high school. So that's just the way he is.
Speaker 1: Like you, you can't really give advice if your sham's
Speaker 1: like you kind of have it or you don't. Not
Speaker 1: everyone's cut out for that. In my career is certainly
Speaker 1: not as demanding. But I'm entrepreneurial by heart. Like I
Speaker 1: was the kid in high school selling snapback hats out
Speaker 1: of my locker and printing T shirts in the school
Speaker 1: art room and selling those and it was just fun
Speaker 1: for me. That's what I like to do. So when
Speaker 1: I had the chance, when I saw this video go off,
Speaker 1: I knew I had a chance here. It was fun
Speaker 1: to take that chance and be like, let's do this
Speaker 1: every day, Let's keep this rolling. It was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I was having a good time.
Speaker 2: How long did it take for you to realize that
Speaker 2: you could monetize this?
Speaker 1: See, I had a bit of an advantage. I worked
Speaker 1: in sports for a couple of years with clutch points
Speaker 1: right exactly. So I'll tell you a funny story. I
Speaker 1: wasn't making very much money, and so I went to
Speaker 1: my boss and I was like, hey, can I start
Speaker 1: doing some sales on the side. I got to sign
Speaker 1: some of these deals so I can get a commission check.
Speaker 1: Like LA's expensive, Trista, it's I know, I know. So
Speaker 1: I was like, I got to make some extra money,
Speaker 1: like I'm stressing, Like I didn't even have a car
Speaker 1: and I live in LA. So I was like, let
Speaker 1: me sign some of these deals.
Speaker 3: And I got I stop you right there really fast?
Speaker 3: Did you uber everywhere or what did you do?
Speaker 1: Oh? Uberpool? That was my thing? All right, Peter Uberpool,
Speaker 1: we need it back.
Speaker 3: So you say, okay, I want to do sales.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I find this deal and it's with the
Speaker 1: company sports Betting Dime and it was a nice deal.
Speaker 1: It was like a twenty five thousand dollars a month
Speaker 1: deal and I was scheduled to make like a couple
Speaker 1: thousand on it every month, which was like, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is like massive life changing money for me. And
Speaker 1: the day we signed it, we had all the ink
Speaker 1: on the paper. The pandemic hits March badness gets shut down,
Speaker 1: the deal gets voided, and I'm out, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.
Speaker 1: This can't be happening right now. And fast forward a
Speaker 1: couple months later, I'm making my own videos. I part
Speaker 1: ways with Clutch Points. I reached back out to the
Speaker 1: same company, sportspending time, and I was like, Hey, give
Speaker 1: me a fraction of what you were about to give
Speaker 1: Clutch Points and I'll deliver. I'm getting tons of views
Speaker 1: right now. I'll drive people where you want to drive them.
Speaker 1: And I crushed it for them. So I monetized pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: But I had some relationships in the bag.
Speaker 2: So what do you think is the most important part
Speaker 2: of a creator going from engaging content views to Ashley
Speaker 2: delivering value.
Speaker 3: For a brand.
Speaker 1: I mean, people have to care about you, they have
Speaker 1: to care about you, and that's like, that's one of
Speaker 1: the problems Clutch Points had was like no one really
Speaker 1: cares about the brand that much. They delivered a lot
Speaker 1: of news like hey, so and so sprains his ankle
Speaker 1: and here's the article about it, and we're gonna link
Speaker 1: you back to the website. They they couldn't have like
Speaker 1: an in person activation. They couldn't be like, hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: meet up. We're having a three v three tournament at
Speaker 1: the park. Like people wouldn't show up. They didn't really
Speaker 1: identify with the brand. They were just in it for
Speaker 1: these little news morsels, and a lot of it was
Speaker 1: just aggregated too, like they're really shams probably like you know,
Speaker 1: they're just there's taking what he does. And they do
Speaker 1: have a couple guys like beat writers for the Clippers
Speaker 1: and such, but you know, that was really the business.
Speaker 1: They weren't building a relationship with their audience. They weren't
Speaker 1: fostering anything. So when I went out of my own,
Speaker 1: I knew I can't have that. I have to show
Speaker 1: my face in these videos. I have to I have
Speaker 1: to be relatable. I have to show you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's a human behind these videos. I'm not like, you know,
Speaker 1: some sports story machine. I have a life, so you know, people,
Speaker 1: people actually appreciate that. I just started a broadcast channel
Speaker 1: on you on Instagram the other day. Thousand people joined
Speaker 1: it immediately. They care about me. So that's the answer
Speaker 1: your question. That's how you have to transition. And like
Speaker 1: people are only gonna convert to brands or sponsor deals
Speaker 1: they care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's hard to get brands to want to
Speaker 2: jump on even if your views are big, right, Like,
Speaker 2: because how are you.
Speaker 3: Going to do that? Are you going to put a
Speaker 3: water mark in?
Speaker 2: Because that's not gonna get any real organic value to
Speaker 2: a brand, is it? Is it something that's like you
Speaker 2: know this Canada drive that I'm just having, Like what
Speaker 2: are like, how how do you find the Because I
Speaker 2: saw that there was a big stock X partnership that
Speaker 2: you just did where you did a scavenger hunt inside
Speaker 2: of an arena.
Speaker 1: So that actually not stock I wanted to be stock X.
Speaker 3: Oh so what was it was just you bought the
Speaker 3: Travis Scott.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, let me explain this. This is this is
Speaker 1: really cool. So it's totally sponsored right now stock X.
Speaker 1: If anyone's listening, pay those attention to the segment. My
Speaker 1: suggestion is always to be creative with the brand deals.
Speaker 1: The brand's paying you money, you know, I think you
Speaker 1: owe it to them to at least think outside the
Speaker 1: box a little bit. It shouldn't be as simple as like,
Speaker 1: here's a candidate dry, you know, use your brain a
Speaker 1: little bit. So this isn't sponsored yet. In the future,
Speaker 1: I hope the brands will see the creativity. But me
Speaker 1: and a fellow Pittsburgh creator. His name's Cohen Hanahan. He
Speaker 1: goes by all Hail b Ball. You might have seen
Speaker 1: his stuff before. I know you're on Basketball TikTok, so
Speaker 1: you've probably seen him. Anyway, we linked up and we
Speaker 1: were like, hey, how cool would it be if we
Speaker 1: did a scavenger hunt at the Steelers game? And we
Speaker 1: loved it, so we went in during the pit game,
Speaker 1: which they play at Heinsfield Acrosher Stadium now and they
Speaker 1: played a week before, hit it during the pick game,
Speaker 1: took a video of us hiding it but didn't give
Speaker 1: away too much, and then promoted that we're doing this,
Speaker 1: and then it was on and we were like, hey,
Speaker 1: find the golden letter, you win the Travis Scotts and
Speaker 1: we ended up having to move the letter a little bit.
Speaker 1: We had some logistical issues, but I stood in the
Speaker 1: corner Trista and tied my hoodie up and watched hundreds
Speaker 1: of kids dig around the concourse. It was amazing, Like
Speaker 1: to see these people in real life. It's so game changing,
Speaker 1: Like we sit behind these screens and see the views
Speaker 1: go up. Seeing it in person is like next level.
Speaker 1: I love it. So now we're doing it every week.
Speaker 3: That's six.
Speaker 2: You came out your pocket for the Travis Scotts Bobbie
Speaker 2: the secondary market to do the activation for a potential
Speaker 2: deal that hasn't even happened yet.
Speaker 1: Well yes, but we also get like we're building something
Speaker 1: like we also do giveaway attached to it. So if
Speaker 1: you were to like I can't make it to Pittsburgh,
Speaker 1: you go to my bill, you enter your email in
Speaker 1: and you have a chance to win another pair. So
Speaker 1: now we get everyone's email, we can create like a
Speaker 1: koolus letter. So we're building assets attached to this. It's
Speaker 1: called the hunt.
Speaker 2: I read that it takes you eight hours somewhere between
Speaker 2: eight and twelve hours to go from ideation to publish
Speaker 2: for one video.
Speaker 3: Is that true?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, depending on the size of the video. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: write pretty fast. Now I've done over a thousand of these.
Speaker 1: So actually getting the idea, I have like a solid
Speaker 1: filter for what's a good idea and what's not. That's
Speaker 1: probably the most important thing to have. Then you know,
Speaker 1: I'm writing the script or a guy on my team
Speaker 1: writes the first edition of the script, I make an edit,
Speaker 1: I film it that The filming process is actually really quick.
Speaker 1: I'll hammer out a video in like four minutes, but
Speaker 1: I send it off to my editing team, who are beasts.
Speaker 1: These guys are the best and they'll spend a full
Speaker 1: shift on it. So they'll spend eight hours editing this,
Speaker 1: you know, one minute video.
Speaker 2: Wow, So okay, so you guys all get together for
Speaker 2: the ideation first, or just just like walk me through
Speaker 2: the granular steps of how that happens.
Speaker 1: From all over the place. Like I saw, for example, today,
Speaker 1: I saw post from ESPN NFL. It was a quote
Speaker 1: from DeMarcus Ware and it was talking about Micah Parsons.
Speaker 1: He has all the tools to be Lawrence Taylor. I
Speaker 1: was just having a conversation with my dad last night
Speaker 1: about how the NFL is hell bent on making Michaeh
Speaker 1: Parsons and the Lawrence Taylor. They are going so far
Speaker 1: with this thing. So when I see that post today
Speaker 1: on my Instagram feed, I'm like, Okay, that's just amo.
Speaker 1: Now I have like a visual aid to put into
Speaker 1: this script. It's going to look even better now. I'm
Speaker 1: reinvigorated to write this thing. I got some of my
Speaker 1: thoughts out with my dad last night. Let's write this.
Speaker 1: I write it, I film it, I get to the team.
Speaker 3: How long did it take to write the script?
Speaker 1: Thirty minutes, not roughly when.
Speaker 2: You edit the script or someone writes the first edition.
Speaker 2: And I know this is like very granular, but I
Speaker 2: think it's super important for people who.
Speaker 3: Want to be creators. What are you looking for to
Speaker 3: be in the script?
Speaker 2: Because I read in this interview, but I also just
Speaker 2: based on what I know, you've got some of the
Speaker 2: best hooks, meaning the thing that gets viewers listening and
Speaker 2: interested and not to swipe left or rights or out
Speaker 2: of there. Like, So what's the most important thing for
Speaker 2: you when you're building that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fine line. You gotta walk. You can't
Speaker 1: be so sensational and be like this is the greatest
Speaker 1: you know, all this stuff, because then you're gonna lose
Speaker 1: people's trust. It's probably not the greatest, the most crazy
Speaker 1: thing ever you heard. And I see people who do that,
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't think it's sustainable. So you
Speaker 1: got to give people something without giving them the whole thing.
Speaker 1: You have to make it exciting without making it sensational.
Speaker 1: It's a balancing act. You have to weigh these things
Speaker 1: and be like, Okay, how can I not give up
Speaker 1: enough information here but still gain their interest and still
Speaker 1: make them need to watch the whole video, which I don't.
Speaker 1: Some people have a problem. They call that clickbaiting and stuff.
Speaker 1: I really don't think it is. Like I think of
Speaker 1: my story structure in a lot of the same ways
Speaker 1: that like movies are written. There's context, there's characters, there's setting,
Speaker 1: there's tension. A movie wouldn't be fun if they just
Speaker 1: gave you the ending right away. You know, you got
Speaker 1: to you gottadd some build up here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to say, hey, like check this little
Speaker 3: that trailer.
Speaker 2: The trailers wouldn't exist if we didn't have to draw
Speaker 2: people in.
Speaker 3: So how many people do you have working with you
Speaker 3: on your staff right now?
Speaker 2: And how did it go from you by yourself in
Speaker 2: La to now you having a little squad.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll start in La. I tell people this all
Speaker 1: the time, like you don't I got the nice mic
Speaker 1: right here, so do you? You know you don't need
Speaker 1: this stuff. But the biggest mistake some of these newer
Speaker 1: creators make is they want to buy everything right away.
Speaker 1: I had an iPhone seven. I used like a suction
Speaker 1: cup and put it on the wall and use the
Speaker 1: front camera. It was nice and sunny in La, so
Speaker 1: I was near a window, didn't need any lighting. But
Speaker 1: I couldn't film it was dark. You know, I had
Speaker 1: to get I had a little window here, but you
Speaker 1: know I had a fifty dollars mic from Target. I
Speaker 1: did have a MacBook Pro, but that's it. Like you know,
Speaker 1: I just cleaned up the room that I was living
Speaker 1: in so it didn't look messy for people, and made
Speaker 1: the videos. You know, it's a low barrier entry nowadays.
Speaker 1: You don't need to have all this fancy stuff. You
Speaker 1: gotta slowly, slowly level up.
Speaker 2: You use like whatever final cut or you edited in
Speaker 2: post correct. You wouldn't just do straight to camera post
Speaker 2: on TikTok. You would do straight to camera upload the
Speaker 2: math book pro and then put what we call b
Speaker 2: roll in, which is the video footage that you have
Speaker 2: overlaying your audio.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, So I had all these skills. Like I
Speaker 1: said at the top, I've been making these videos since
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. I used to use Windows movie Maker.
Speaker 1: You know, that was the worst thing ever iMovie some
Speaker 1: of these programs. Then I went to Final Cut. Now
Speaker 1: I'm at Adobe Premiere, so I know how to use
Speaker 1: all this stuff. I had those skills. The skill I
Speaker 1: really didn't have at the beginning was being on camera talking.
Speaker 1: I never did any of that. I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: I got zero followers, Like, no one's gonna see this,
Speaker 1: you know, cares. It's like my friends don't even have
Speaker 1: TikTok yet. It's pretty early. So I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, like even if I tho I'm terrible here,
Speaker 1: no one's going to see it. Sure Enough, my first
Speaker 1: video gets one hundred thousand, and I was like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, at least I got the stats to back
Speaker 1: it up. Now if I'm terrible.
Speaker 2: Interactive Media major in College of Miami of Ohio. I
Speaker 2: think the thing that's interesting to me is that it
Speaker 2: feels like just from moment one, you kind of just
Speaker 2: knew that this was your game plan.
Speaker 3: Like what is that program? What did you learn? How
Speaker 3: much of that do you use every day? Now?
Speaker 1: I'm one of the few people who really uses their major,
Speaker 1: at least like from my friends in college. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it did. It did feel right. I didn't know Miami
Speaker 1: had this major when I went there. I was undecided
Speaker 1: and I was going to try and get in the
Speaker 1: business school. You got like a Dean calc. That wasn't happening.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be an entrepreneurship major. It wouldn't let
Speaker 1: me be an entrepreneurship major. Like makes no sense to
Speaker 1: me at all, but you know, it's all for the best.
Speaker 1: I find interactive media. I finish out that major, and
Speaker 1: there wasn't really any job for me. Like I came
Speaker 1: out of college and I was jobless for six months.
Speaker 1: It sucked, like I felt pretty bad about myself. To
Speaker 1: be honest, all my friends were like working making money.
Speaker 1: I was like, damn. I went for an interview as
Speaker 1: like a loan support analyst. That was painful. I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I cannot I hope they don't offer me this job.
Speaker 1: I do not even want to have to say no
Speaker 1: to them. So you know, shout out to all the
Speaker 1: loan support analysts out there, no disrespect, But it wasn't
Speaker 1: for me. Finally found the thing at Clutch Points, and
Speaker 1: you know that wasn't for me either, But you know
Speaker 1: I learned a lot of valuable things there and part
Speaker 1: of ways and do my own thing at twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: So for those who don't know, my man Frank Smith
Speaker 2: was running the socials for Clutch Points and killing it there.
Speaker 3: And what I thought was interesting was the interview that
Speaker 3: I that.
Speaker 2: I read was they were totally fine with you doing
Speaker 2: your own thing while you were working there, until you
Speaker 2: surpassed them. What was that like conversation like and what
Speaker 2: did that sort of teach you?
Speaker 1: That was wild? That made no sense to me at all.
Speaker 1: Like I wanted to win so bad. I'm a competitive person.
Speaker 1: I really wanted to win. When I was there, I
Speaker 1: was like, we got to do new stuff, We got
Speaker 1: to be more creative, we got to like, we got
Speaker 1: to evolve as a brand here. We need to do
Speaker 1: original content. Like I said, a lot of it's aggregated,
Speaker 1: and that they made a business model off of that.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that anything like wrong with it, But
Speaker 1: I wanted to level up and I saw this original
Speaker 1: content as a way to do that. And I would
Speaker 1: tell them every Monday we had this meeting about TikTok.
Speaker 1: I was like, look, this stuff's working for me. We
Speaker 1: should lead into this, we should be reposting this, we
Speaker 1: should be you know, devoting resources to this. And they
Speaker 1: kind of just blew me off week after week until
Speaker 1: I passed them and then their whole attitude flipped and
Speaker 1: they said they owned my page. It was crazy. It
Speaker 1: was like they were trying to basically say that, like
Speaker 1: everything I created in my own time on my own
Speaker 1: phone was theirs. And at that point, like the relationship
Speaker 1: had totally soured and there was no way that I
Speaker 1: was going to continue working there. I was already working remote,
Speaker 1: which was weird anyway, and I was like, now I'm
Speaker 1: just going to better myself and do my own thing.
Speaker 1: So they fired me.
Speaker 2: They're loss, you're done with clutch Points, but you're still
Speaker 2: in LA. You go off, you do it all by yourself.
Speaker 2: Now walk me through how you get from that to
Speaker 2: living in Pittsburgh with the team media mogul them all.
Speaker 1: Right, So, first of all, I love Pittsburgh. You're not
Speaker 1: going to hear a lot of like creators in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: Although like my guy Colin is here, it's not exactly
Speaker 1: a creator hotbed. It's the opposite move you'd make if
Speaker 1: you're starting a media company a production company. You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: let me move from LA to Pittsburgh. At like the
Speaker 1: peak of this business, you know, I was doing like
Speaker 1: eighty million views a month. Things are going well. So
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, let me move to Pittsburgh. And
Speaker 1: a lot of people's minds they were probably like, that's
Speaker 1: the opposite way, that's your work. But for me, it
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know what the point of living
Speaker 1: in LA is anymore. People don't want to meet with
Speaker 1: you in person. COVID got so weird there that you know,
Speaker 1: what's the whole point of being there If you can't
Speaker 1: build relationships. Everyone wanted to take a meeting online. I
Speaker 1: was like, why am I paying all this rent? And
Speaker 1: I just love Pittsburgh. This is my hometown. I love
Speaker 1: this city. People here have like a real community connection
Speaker 1: with the other, with each other. There's not transplants, you know.
Speaker 1: It was weird living in LA. Like I'm I would
Speaker 1: walk down the street and people like wouldn't wave at you,
Speaker 1: like the simplest things, like no one was friendly ever.
Speaker 1: And that's something that Pittsburgh really does a good job of,
Speaker 1: Like we all have this, like you know, we were
Speaker 1: all most of us were born here, so you know,
Speaker 1: it just works. But anyway, I had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: buy my childhood home where I am right now. So
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, that's perfect. I can sit studio
Speaker 1: up in the basement. I know I have plenty of room.
Speaker 1: I love this house. And I made it happen in
Speaker 1: October twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: At what point did you say, Okay, I've got the
Speaker 2: resources where I want to either have people come on
Speaker 2: to my team or you obviously started a production company
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: So that happened. Actually, while I was still in LA
Speaker 1: I got my first video editor. He is a beast.
Speaker 1: I've worked with him for like six or seven years actually,
Speaker 1: so he was at clutch points and he was like
Speaker 1: I taught him how to do most of his edits
Speaker 1: in the beginning, and this guy like he's such a grinder.
Speaker 1: He is so much better than me in every possible way. Now,
Speaker 1: like he has really taken that minor lesson I gave
Speaker 1: him at the beginning, like six or seven years ago,
Speaker 1: and become so talented, Like he's so committed to his craft.
Speaker 1: He helped me build the rest of our video editing team.
Speaker 1: We have like ten guys. Now, wow, so we don't
Speaker 1: just edit for me. We have a whole portfolio of
Speaker 1: snap shows we do. We take brands on as clients.
Speaker 1: We've really taken this team and built it out in
Speaker 1: a couple different ways here. So yeah, credit to him,
Speaker 1: credit to our relationship, and I mean it just helps
Speaker 1: to have someone who's actually committed to their craft. Like
Speaker 1: there's two different kinds of people you hire. I've definitely
Speaker 1: realized this. There's the one person that's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm here to like do my thing, and the other
Speaker 1: person's like, I want to get better. It's like that.
Speaker 1: You see it happen in sports too, Like you draft
Speaker 1: a rookie who never gets any better. They're probably not
Speaker 1: working hard enough. This guy's job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting too because you as somebody who's
Speaker 2: like that, who's almost maniacal about every day. I guess
Speaker 2: as you can tell if I'm me and my friend
Speaker 2: who's worked on the podcast, with me since the beginning,
Speaker 2: are like passing back and forth, like what do you
Speaker 2: think makes.
Speaker 3: This video really good? Like? Why did this video go viral?
Speaker 2: There's a there's an element of like always wanting to improve,
Speaker 2: and when people don't have that, it's it's just a
Speaker 2: very jarring, jarring feeling.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine living that way. I think about this
Speaker 1: a lot, actually, and I've come to terms with it.
Speaker 1: It used to frustrate me a lot, but I've come
Speaker 1: to terms with like, some people just they're not interested
Speaker 1: in that, and that's not going to change for them,
Speaker 1: and it's something you have to accept.
Speaker 2: Do you think that there are stories that are good
Speaker 2: that you make that don't go viral? Like is there
Speaker 2: a story that you remember making that you were like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: this thing's gonna crush and the algorithm, for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: just did not respond.
Speaker 3: And if so, what was it?
Speaker 1: Oh, did not respond?
Speaker 3: Just did not respond?
Speaker 1: You know what, I'll have to look through. Can I
Speaker 1: give you the opposite?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 1: Okay, So I did a story on Barry Bremen and
Speaker 1: he for anyone who hasn't seen the video, there's actually
Speaker 1: an E sixty on him that's really good too. He
Speaker 1: was a professional fraud. He would go to games and
Speaker 1: get on the court by like dressing like the players,
Speaker 1: and he was famous for this, Like everyone kind of
Speaker 1: loved him if you did it. Nowadays, today's equivalent is
Speaker 1: like the guy who used to be Klay Thompson, remember him, Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: So no one likes that guy, Like he's banned, he
Speaker 1: can't go to games anymore. Barry Breman was such a
Speaker 1: likable guy and such a pioneer in this stuff that
Speaker 1: everyone kind of like loved when he did it, and
Speaker 1: it was a thing like, oh Barry Breman, like the
Speaker 1: impostors here. And when I got that story, I was like,
Speaker 1: we're going to make a you know, a TikTok or
Speaker 1: a short out of this. I was like, this is
Speaker 1: definitely going to blow up. Like this story is so good.
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people know it, which
Speaker 1: is a big part. And any story that has like
Speaker 1: an element of fraud or crime or foul play or
Speaker 1: something like that, there's like a hint of that to
Speaker 1: it always going to be better. And then what happened, Oh,
Speaker 1: blew up immediately everywhere else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what about a video you thought would not do well?
Speaker 3: And then it just exploded.
Speaker 1: All right, I'll give this one as an example. So
Speaker 1: I hadn't tried this format yet. I did a video
Speaker 1: about the fifty forty ninety Club, and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: Tony Snell's like in the fifty forty ninety Club. I
Speaker 1: found this information and I was like, he hasn't missed
Speaker 1: a freae throw in like two years, you know, and
Speaker 1: it was it wasn't one of those players. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, like he plays four minutes a game, like
Speaker 1: he's not qualifying. Like Tony Snell was starting a lot
Speaker 1: of these games. Now he wasn't shooting a lot, but
Speaker 1: he was playing a lot of minutes, and he was
Speaker 1: like he did have the stats. I don't think he
Speaker 1: ended up qualifying at the end of the season. But
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, what if I made
Speaker 1: this video and I didn't reveal his name until the
Speaker 1: very end. I hadn't tried this format yet, so I
Speaker 1: was like, this could be really bad or it could
Speaker 1: be amazing because people will have to watch the end
Speaker 1: to see ended up being great. But I can't imagine
Speaker 1: like making a video about Tony Snell and it doing well,
Speaker 1: Like there's not that much interesting stuff about Tony.
Speaker 2: Snell except for Quasia on the Club Trillion too, or
Speaker 2: like he was in.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the Zero Game.
Speaker 3: Yet the Zero Game stories.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you at one point didn't want to
Speaker 2: do stories about yourself or you didn't want to make
Speaker 2: yourself like a focal point of the video, But those
Speaker 2: are crushing those.
Speaker 3: Like you said, create value for an audience.
Speaker 2: At what point in the process for you, did you
Speaker 2: realize that you were just as important as whatever it
Speaker 2: is that you were talking about.
Speaker 1: Well, I definitely realized that when everyone copied my style,
Speaker 1: when everyone started making videos that were identical to mine,
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, now my face is actually like
Speaker 1: integral here, because it's the differentiator between people trying to
Speaker 1: do my style and me doing my style. They don't
Speaker 1: have me so definitely at that point, and you'll see
Speaker 1: it so often with the thumbnails. The thumbnails is crazy.
Speaker 1: The fact that I started making these colorful thumbnails with
Speaker 1: the cutout above the text, and then everyone tried to
Speaker 1: do that. There's so many it's pretty sick.
Speaker 3: It is pretty sick, let's be honest.
Speaker 1: It's nice. I love it, but like my god, there's
Speaker 1: so many other ways to be creative here. I'm surprised that,
Speaker 1: like there's people doing it now that don't even know
Speaker 1: they're doing mine. They're doing someone else that did mine,
Speaker 1: And you know, that was definitely a turning point. But
Speaker 1: I will make videos about myself to answer your question.
Speaker 1: It's just got to be interesting enough, Like people have
Speaker 1: to realize, like I don't live some like crazy lifestyle
Speaker 1: like a lot of creators don't. Anyone who read the
Speaker 1: Shams article knows he doesn't. It's on his phone twenty
Speaker 1: hours a day. You know, I'm not doing those numbers.
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of my days spent hanging
Speaker 1: out in my studio, like editing videos and writing scripts
Speaker 1: my cat down here. You know, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not exactly story worthy content.
Speaker 3: So what's next? What do you want to?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: What's the big dream for you?
Speaker 1: A couple things on the radar right now. The Hunt,
Speaker 1: which I talked about earlier, which is a great way
Speaker 1: to put myself into the content. I love actually meeting
Speaker 1: the people who watch my videos and it's always an
Speaker 1: amazing interaction. And to add some level of creativity there
Speaker 1: is even better. So I'm really excited to work on that.
Speaker 1: We have built fantasy games before five card draw is
Speaker 1: a big one. I've done it for years, really popular.
Speaker 1: We have some big plans with that. I'm involved in
Speaker 1: an agency, a creative agency called Supersonic. We brought on
Speaker 1: a couple brand clients there and we share my video
Speaker 1: editing team. So you know, that's kind of the whole
Speaker 1: thing right now. With creators, right it's like you can
Speaker 1: only go so far with the actual content, like unless
Speaker 1: you're Alex Cooper or Joe Rogan or you know, mister Beast.
Speaker 1: But he's even a good example, someone that built a
Speaker 1: business on the side in addition to his billions of views.
Speaker 1: You have to take what you're building and build businesses
Speaker 1: up off of it. So that's definitely the next step
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 3: Fascinating.
Speaker 2: Let's move on to some some hoop stuff because I
Speaker 2: know that. So Pittsburgh, So what's the NBA team? Which
Speaker 2: what was the NBA team for you growing up?
Speaker 1: You know, it's so unfortunate we don't have an NBA team.
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh loves basketball. No one talks about this and people
Speaker 1: laugh when we get mentioned for an expansion team, But
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh loves its sports so much. We would do so
Speaker 1: well with an NBA team. We have the arena. It's
Speaker 1: relatively new PPG where the Penns play. They host March
Speaker 1: Madness there. There's plenty big enough, but I've never had
Speaker 1: a team there. And as a kid, I always was
Speaker 1: just a fan of the league. You know. The closest
Speaker 1: I came to becoming a fan of an actual team
Speaker 1: was as a kid, we'd always go visit my grandparents
Speaker 1: in Cleveland, and you know, as a young kid, it
Speaker 1: was tied up perfectly with Lebron's first stint in Cleveland,
Speaker 1: so it was the coolest thing. My grandparents. We get
Speaker 1: us tickets once a year to go see Lebron, and
Speaker 1: I got to see you know the other team too.
Speaker 2: Loo.
Speaker 1: I saw you know Ming in person. We saw young
Speaker 1: t Mac and we went to a couple games whereas
Speaker 1: the Bulls and you know, young Lebron. People kind of
Speaker 1: forget this now, but was like the most electric player
Speaker 1: ever to watch, like just crazy athletic, worth the price
Speaker 1: of admission every single time. So I like the Calves
Speaker 1: back then, but I never really built like such a
Speaker 1: connection with them. I can't, I can't explain it, but
Speaker 1: like I'm wearing like a PSG shirt right now, hoodie.
Speaker 1: I bought this and I was like, maybe I'll become
Speaker 1: a PSG fan, you know, like that'd be nice, right
Speaker 1: like they got they got Naymar, like Neymar Trista. It
Speaker 1: never works for me. I can only be fans of
Speaker 1: the teams that are in Pittsburgh. I tried to become
Speaker 1: a Cavs fan. I tried to be a PSG fan.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. It just doesn't work. I try to
Speaker 1: be a Warriors fan too.
Speaker 3: Hard Dubs, yeah hard.
Speaker 1: They're my favorite team to watch, but I can't really
Speaker 1: have that connection with them. I need the team to
Speaker 1: be in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's something about the local vibe.
Speaker 2: I'm an Oregon U fan, went to Oregon Blazer span
Speaker 2: through and through.
Speaker 3: There's just but.
Speaker 2: I'm also a Cowboys fan because you know, there's no
Speaker 2: NFL team there, and it's just a different feeling.
Speaker 3: You know, there's just a when they lose, you're upset, but.
Speaker 2: Not really as much as when it's like, oh okay,
Speaker 2: it's Washington, Oregon. Last few seconds that that heart is
Speaker 2: in your chest. So I get that with the local flavor.
Speaker 2: So in terms of like the news, we talked about
Speaker 2: this when I come on your podcast.
Speaker 3: What is the most Like?
Speaker 2: You caught me off guard? So I decided not to
Speaker 2: catch you off guard. Most chi under the radar signing
Speaker 2: pick up in the NBA.
Speaker 1: I think this season, okay, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people forgot about the Christops move. That was a big
Speaker 1: deal when it happened, and now that the Celtics have
Speaker 1: made another move, it's like totally forgotten. I haven't heard
Speaker 1: any articles or any talk about it, but I think
Speaker 1: it's important here, and you know, we're talking about a
Speaker 1: team that's a title favorite. So I'm kind of surprised.
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. I think a lot of that's because
Speaker 3: he's just not been healthy, right, and so we're wondering
Speaker 3: is he a five? Is he a four? How's the fit?
Speaker 3: And then the Drew thing came in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's always an injury risk and you
Speaker 1: know whatever, but that's that's gonna make the team look
Speaker 1: so much different. I'm not particularly huge Chris tops fan.
Speaker 1: I think his game has always been kind of weird
Speaker 1: ever since he got the first injury in New York. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: he definitely didn't work in Dallas. That was ugly watching
Speaker 1: him alongside with Luca. So I'm not saying this is
Speaker 1: going to be a good move, but it's definitely one
Speaker 1: worth keeping tabs on that's not getting any balls.
Speaker 2: Favorite off the court plot line or plot lines this season.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's gotta be James Harden right, Like we talked
Speaker 1: about this when you came on. But he had another
Speaker 1: quote the other day where he was like, all right,
Speaker 1: so update he's at camp, and then they ask him again.
Speaker 1: He's like, situation, relationship is beyond repair. He compares it
Speaker 1: to a marriage being done. I'm like, okay, so what
Speaker 1: so what like you're gonna like be on the team
Speaker 1: still or how are we doing this here? Because you're
Speaker 1: still at war with the team.
Speaker 2: It's like when you live with your boyfriend or girlfriend
Speaker 2: and you guys are broken up, but you're still like
Speaker 2: you still have a one bedroom and you're just sleeping
Speaker 2: in this like twin band together. You like look over,
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, I don't want to be here, but
Speaker 2: I have nowhere else that that I can go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean pretty much. It's like, so if Daryl
Speaker 1: Morey was the woman here, she's like bringing back other
Speaker 1: dudes to the apartment. He's like, O, he has to
Speaker 1: just like sit through it. It's like I need to
Speaker 1: find a different place to live.
Speaker 2: He needs to go, He's got to go soon. I
Speaker 2: saw this that Zach Low. I like Zach Low a lot,
Speaker 2: but this is maybe the most disrespectful League past lists
Speaker 2: I've ever seen. Where You've got like Toronto's got to
Speaker 2: be the hardest watch this year. So who are your
Speaker 2: top league past teams and who are your like absolutely
Speaker 2: switching away from the TV when this team is on.
Speaker 1: Let's start with the team I want to watch. I
Speaker 1: still think the Kings were a League past team.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: They were so fun to watch last year. And I
Speaker 1: know how many games are they on national TV? List
Speaker 1: always comes out, but I didn't review it. I'm guessing
Speaker 1: they don't have very many. They're still in Sacramento, so
Speaker 1: it's going to be a lot of league pass for
Speaker 1: me for the Kings. And it's the West Coast, so
Speaker 1: those games are they're usually like a sneaky late night watch.
Speaker 1: That was always the Blazers for me. They're in the
Speaker 1: Blazers spot now. So I like the Kings. I mean
Speaker 1: they're just exciting. They run it up. I think they
Speaker 1: scored like one hundred and twenty five points a game
Speaker 1: last year, and.
Speaker 2: Then worst team to watch. You can't use the Raptors,
Speaker 2: but they're really bad.
Speaker 1: They're really bad. I want to go with Charlotte. There
Speaker 1: was just news again the other day about Miles Bridges.
Speaker 1: Can anything go right in Charlotte? Like they made I
Speaker 1: saw someone make a list of like the police reports
Speaker 1: on their team. It is so bad. And then you
Speaker 1: add in LaMelo, who doesn't have a police report. I
Speaker 1: don't want to, you know, misreport anything here, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem super interested in being like an NBA player.
Speaker 1: I think everything goes wrong for them. I have almost
Speaker 1: no hope for this team, and I think it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a lot of selfish me first basketball, which I
Speaker 1: hate seeing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what team do you think has the biggest drop
Speaker 2: off this year?
Speaker 1: The biggest drop off? Unfortunately? I think it might be
Speaker 1: the Warriors. They're still and I really like the Warriors.
Speaker 1: I love watching them play basketball. But I think a
Speaker 1: lot of things can go wrong in a lot of
Speaker 1: different directions for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about this on your pod that Chris
Speaker 2: Paul fit will have to see.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't totally surprise me if they end up being
Speaker 1: like a nine or a ten seed in missing the playoffs,
Speaker 1: like end up being a playing team. They're just really
Speaker 1: old at this point. I don't think there's any way
Speaker 1: around that. They're probably going to be some injuries there.
Speaker 1: They're going to be short on depth. Don't love it,
Speaker 1: but you know, Steph is He's gonna find a way.
Speaker 1: If Steph remains healthy the whole year, he's still gonna
Speaker 1: be Steph Curry. But yeah, I don't want to I
Speaker 1: don't want to redo the whole thing about Chris Paul.
Speaker 1: I just don't see how he fits in.
Speaker 3: You'd still think Nuggets win the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Or who's your title favorite as of now October seventeenth.
Speaker 1: I think it's Boston. It's hard to pick against Nuggets
Speaker 1: in the West, though, really it's really hard. Remember when
Speaker 1: those Jokic retirement rumors came out. I think that's I
Speaker 1: think that's the only thing that can stop them is
Speaker 1: if he just like becomes disinterested in playing basketball, which
Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's a lie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be like the greatest bit ever in history.
Speaker 2: But you have been thank you so much for making
Speaker 2: the time. We're gonna have to do it again. I
Speaker 2: am coming out to Pittsburgh. I'm gonna see a game
Speaker 2: with you again. Like you guys, If you guys don't
Speaker 2: follow Frank Michael Smith on every platform and you're not
Speaker 2: getting storytelling from him on a daily basis, you must
Speaker 2: do it again. TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter. His Twitter thread's
Speaker 2: low key, very insightful as well the hook at the
Speaker 2: end and if you like this thread, please follow, just
Speaker 2: like Nuggets after nuggets and doesn't he doesn't care about
Speaker 2: divulging them because he knows you're not gonna do him
Speaker 2: because you're way too fucking lazy. So thank you so
Speaker 2: much to Frank Michael Smith for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3: We'll have to do it again soon.
Speaker 1: Trista, It's been a pleasure. I'm excited for Pittsburgh and
Speaker 1: everyone out there. Definitely follow the Twitter. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: grow on there, so good stuff coming on there.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thanks so much,