WEBVTT - Nobel Laureate Economist on Vaccine Equity 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanibek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all harnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.600 analysts in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.200 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.360 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:36.000 Search Bloomberg Global News Visor. That Human Safety testing, they 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.560 begun for a new pill to treat the virus that 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:40.199 could be used at the first sign of illness. You've 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.080 got the head of the w h O calling recent 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.280 increases in deaths and cases quote truly worrying trends that 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:47.440 they kind of back and forth. We see, Tim, you're 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:48.720 seeing a lot of good news when it comes to 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:50.879 treatments and vaccines, where we're seeing bad news when it 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:52.760 comes to the numbers still going up, and then countries 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.480 like Germany putting in stricter lockdown measures in place starting 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:57.560 in just a few days and astra Zeneca its own 0:00:57.600 --> 0:00:59.600 starts and stops if you will. They said they're going 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.160 to release to date results from the final stage trial 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.520 of its vaccine within forty eight hours. They're really responding 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.759 to criticism from a US science agency. So let's get 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.120 our daily check on all things COVID back with us. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.000 As Dr Seth Letterman, co founder, CEO, chairman of the 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.840 New York based specialty pharmaceutical and biopharma company Tonics Pharmaceuticals, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.000 he joins us on the phone in New Bedford, Massachusetts. 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.400 Dr Letterman, nice to have you back here on Bloomberg. 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.880 How are you great? Thank you very much for having 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.679 me on. So tell us, um, we want to get 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.560 into the work that specifically you guys are doing. But 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.440 tell us about the astra Zenica vaccine specifically and this 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.640 fiser maybe having a new pill to treat the virus 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.039 at the first sign of illness. Um, when you hear 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:48.360 about that, you think, what, well like, the astros Nicat 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:53.440 story is really unprecedented. It's unprecedented that the Data Safety 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.440 Monitoring Committee would raise an alarm publicly, and it's just 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.080 unclear what happened. So I think we all have to 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.200 wait and watch over the next forty eight hours. But 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.600 I think that the trouble they're having is also a 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:13.600 testament to how incredibly well the Fiser, Maderna and J 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.919 and J programs went. If you think about the complexity 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.120 of these trials, tens of thousands of people data coming 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.440 in the public clamoring for information, and that this is 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:29.280 really the first big glitch that we've seen is really remarkable. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.440 Although I really don't know what more to say about 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.280 it though, except that coming on the heels of the 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.360 other problems that astra Zenek has had, it does seem 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.280 to be eroding confidence in their effort. Is that erosion 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.320 of confidence warranted though, because we do talk to a 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.520 lot of people who followed this closely who say that 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.880 the data still show that this looks like it's going 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.959 to be an art is an effective vaccine. I think 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.679 it's a challenge for them to get it went confidence back, 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.799 but I hope that they will, because, certainly on the 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.400 range of numbers that are being reported by outlets like 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:10.160 the Washington Post between sixteen nine and se seemed like 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.760 a vaccine that should be out there and could be 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.480 helping people. Yeah, exactly well, and you guys are working 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.120 on your own vaccine as well. Tell us where you 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.320 are on that process. It's a little bit different than 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.000 some of the ones that have been put out there already, 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.040 but get us up to speed on that if you 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.720 thanks for working on a vaccine that's based on a 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.320 live virus spector. We call it ten X eighteen hundred 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:39.560 and live virus vaccine vectors induce a stronger immunity and 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.840 a T cell immunity. So we're hoping that the current 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.680 vaccines that are eu A authorized will solve the problem. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.600 But if they don't, we will be out there in 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.240 phase one we expect this year and hopefully in efficacy 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:01.280 trials next year. The reason that we are still charging 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.880 forward if it's an unanswered question about whether the three 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:12.080 EUA vaccines will provide durable immunity, and we we think 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.840 that stimulating T cells strongly has a potential to provide 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.200 that kind of durable immunity. We talked about this Tim 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.159 and I with you last time. Because this is a distinction, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:21.520 because I think every time you come on, I'm like, well, 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.039 why are you guys still pursuing your vaccine? But it 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.200 is a different No, it's longer term protection um from 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.479 the virus. And when remind us, when you talk longer term, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.960 what does that mean specifically? Are we talking years? Are 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:41.279 tell us? Yeah? Yes, years or decades? Well, and there 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.719 are two phases of covid. One is we have to 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:48.000 extinguish this pandemic. And it seems like there's a great 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.400 potential for the eu A vaccines to make strides. And 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.320 I've I'm halfway through my fasor vaccine protocol. I urge 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.240 everyone to get vaccinated. I think that these three vaccines 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.800 are great, but I think that we also have to 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.719 think longer term that COVID will be endemic. So we 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.400 have to think about children being born in the future 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:14.159 into a world where COVID is endemic. And I believe 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:19.560 that COVID vaccination will become part of childhood vaccinations. So, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:24.920 for example, the MMR vaccine mumps, Measles rebella is a 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:29.120 live virus vaccine and that provides years and decades of protection. Hey, dr, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.440 let him into that end? What what what place do 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.480 you think treatment has Because Caroline just talked about this 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.000 Visor pill, that is Visor's testing a safety of a 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.160 new pill to treat the coronavirus that could be used 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.080 at the first sign of illness and how about forty 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.240 seconds left. It's very exciting. Um, I think that now 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.080 you're seeing that. You know, even with the vaccinations, we're 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.480 going to be rumbling along having cases and serious disease 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.680 and unfortunately continue immortality. So I think it's wonderful. It's 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.920 a new it's a new approach. It inhibits a viral enzyme, 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.360 and I think it could complement what's available with him 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.880 disavere from Gilead and uh, you know the Eli Lillian 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.440 regenera on antibodies. I think that's a very important area 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:14.599 for continued development. Dr Letterman. Something I'm we're curious about 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.880 is you guys are working, as you mentioned, uh, specifically 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:22.479 on your t n X vaccine. It's different. It's about 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.440 T cell immunity, and you still think that because COVID 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.839 will be endemic, that we're going to need tools like 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.040 this going forward. Is there a point though, that you 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.360 look at COVID or the virus and you say, wait 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.360 a minute, you know, we can't keep developing this or 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.320 it's not going to make sense. Is there a point 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.960 where you do that and I bring it up to 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.279 because I think investors are pretty excited about your stock. 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.600 I mean it's up this year, thank you. There may 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.520 be a point, but we're certainly not there yet. I think, 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.479 as I mentioned, the E way vaccines are certainly taking 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.919 some of the air out of the tire of the virus, 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.400 but we do the to have durable protection. And one 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.719 of the things we really don't know is how much 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.840 immunity is out there. It's easy to measure antibody immunity, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.800 but it's hard to measure T cell immunity. And that's 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.000 why one of the other programs we have is a 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:19.120 skin test to look at T sell immunity. It's very 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.160 similar to the PPD test that is used to measure 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.280 exposure to tuberculosis. But I think that our tool, maybe 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.160 other tools they could see how many people have T 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.160 cell immunity could give us a better idea about the 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:38.800 amount of immunity and the population and either confidence or 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.880 less confidence in in whether there will be a spike 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.800 after all this spring break travel. So where are you 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.280 in development of that and bringing that to market. Well, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.160 we just had a response from the FDA on our 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.400 developed expect to file the I and D in the 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.320 second quarter and to be in clinical trials in the 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.400 third quarter. So what would that mean as far as 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.760 when there could potentially be Is this the type of 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:05.880 thing that they would do emergency use authorization for? Is 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.320 this the type of thing you could bring to market? 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.440 We would hope for emergency use authorization, but I think 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.080 that that will also depend on where the country is 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.840 in terms of the COVID situation in the fall in spring. 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.640 But I think that that's a decision that FDA will make. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.480 The will will certainly ask for it, but they'll have 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.160 to make that determination. Do you feel like in general 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.600 the US is doing a lot better when it comes 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.120 to getting control of COVID? And I do wonder though, 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.240 does it none of this matter unless we everywhere around 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:44.280 the world we get it under control. Basically, the US 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.120 is doing a great job in making vaccine available. It 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:54.400 is really remarkable. I think that Operation Warp speed is 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.240 almost equivalent to the Manhattan Project and the speed in 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.960 which these vaccines came out, and we're all lucky. I 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.679 think at how effective the three EUA vaccines appear to 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.600 be and the impact they're having. The problem is that 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.760 it's hard to keep Americans at home and if you 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.560 look at the lockdowns in Germany and Ireland Italy. Um, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:22.079 it makes me almost envious that the government could control 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.440 people that way. But obviously that's not an option in 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.400 the United States. So I hope that people would just 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.199 wait a few more months to we to we reached 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:36.240 higher numbers of vaccinations before they went on vacation travel. 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.520 But obviously, as they say, a free country, and nobody 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.520 asked me, so I think now a lot of vaccine 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.800 experts are just cringing, waiting to see what will happen 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.240 in the coming weeks. DR you're one of those vaccine experts, 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:50.800 what do you think will happen in the coming weeks. 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.600 It's hard to tell because we don't know. As I say, 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.079 the I call it the denominator, how many people really 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.760 have been exposed, how many people have asymptomatic cases? Didn't 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.240 know about it? Uh, you know, wrote it off. A 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.400 lot of people are unaware that you can have gastro 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:14.800 intestinal symptoms only and since that's not common knowledge, that 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.400 that could result in them being immune and not even 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.160 thinking in their minds that they had it. Um. You know, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.840 the antibodies fade over time, so someone who might have 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.280 been sick in March or April, would be antibody negative now, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.319 but still have T cells. So I think it's a big, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:37.240 big unknown. I'm cautiously optimistic, but um, you know what 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.960 they say, what would I do? Not what I say. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:44.120 I'm certainly saying, hunger down until a lot more is known. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.440 Really quick question fifteen seconds if you have if you 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:53.160 have COVID, you automatically developed T cells just quickly. Almost 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.400 everyone would unless they had some kind of immunate efficiency. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.160 All right, good to know, Always learn something. Dr Seth Lederman, 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.200 thank you so much, Founder, chief executive officer, chairman of 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.240 Tonics Pharmaceuticals. Joining us on the phone from New Bedford, Massachusetts. 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.280 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:14.160 Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. Coming up in 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.520 the new issue of Bloomberg Business Week that later this 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.600 week online and on the Bloomberg Right Now, reporting on 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.440 how the unemployment system is plagued by sixty three billion 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.120 dollars in fraud and dysfunction. Uh, Tim, those are real numbers, Yeah, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.640 they certainly are. And Joel Weber is the editor of 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.000 Bloomberg Business Week, joining us on the remote from Brooklyn. 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.240 Olivia Rockman is us economy reporter at Bloomberg News, joining 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.880 us on the phone from New York City. Carol mentioned it, Joel, 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:44.000 billions of dollars lost to fraud. It's it's a big number, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.120 and it's all the more concerning because it's happening in 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.400 in a space that you know, we have millions of 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.720 people who remain vulnerable. And when you see this much 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.120 money seeping out the sides and the dysfunction that accompanies that, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.959 it's caused for concern. So, so Ben, can you help 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.440 dive into the story and tell us what you were 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.400 able to find out your through your reporting. Yeah, and 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.840 just a note on that sixty three billion number, that's 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.400 actually a backward looking at the gar And so you know, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.680 now that SIDEN has reinstated unemployment through September, we're just 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.600 going to see that figure continue to grow as more 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.160 people apply and as the system continues to be available. 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.800 So how come it's so bad? One of the reasons 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.920 is that the unemployment application systems that are administered by 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.640 spats are just websites, and so anyone in any country 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.359 can simply apply online. Another issue is that the pandemic 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.839 Unemployment Assistance program, which was launched as part of the 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.000 Cares Act for gig workers and self employed workers, doesn't 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.160 require an employer verification, and so a lot of people 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.280 either in foreign countries or of the United States have 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.840 been applying with the hopes that they get through without 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.880 that extra stept. So what do you know about where 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.640 this money has gone and is there any chance that 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.280 the U. S. Government can get it back? Because this 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.400 has real consequences, because this is meant for the American people, 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:12.280 people who need the money. Right We spoke with some 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.960 security experts who have been working with states and they 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:18.440 mentioned that there are major crime rings coming out of Nigeria. 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.280 Some federal inmates and United States prisons have been able 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.720 to apply and get money, as well as people in 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:30.000 countries including Japan, of countries in Africa, countries in Europe, etcetera. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.400 So it really is coming from all over the place. 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.360 In terms of getting the money back, it seems to 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.439 us right now that their real effort is in prosecuting 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.679 the criminals that they found, but not as much about 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.080 getting the money backed currently. So so many of the 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.079 problems here also right right from the federal kind of 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.760 state interactions, and so what what are state unemployment offices 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:59.120 doing to combat this threat? Right now? States don't have 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.640 a ton of resort of that hand, other than that 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:06.200 some have hired security firms to do additional verification to 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.960 try to keep fraudsters out of their systems. But that said, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.480 what happens when you have these extra processes is that 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.120 Americans who do qualify for benefits and actually need them 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.200 often get lost in that system. Um, so it's sort 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.440 of a lose lose situation right now. So, Olivia, you 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.360 gotta talk about some of the crazy stuff you came 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.680 across in doing this story. Um, people wearing masks to 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.440 kind of get benefits you talk about. I guess there's 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.640 a case you talk about in Nevada last year where 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.240 there was something like claims to a single home address. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.720 Tell us about some of the crazy stuff you came across. Yeah, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.880 So on that point about the masks, some people that 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.440 have applied for benefits and then have to go through 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.880 an online video process to verify their identity who are 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:55.080 fraudsters have been three D printing fake spaces that they 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.600 wear on these video calls to appear to be the 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:02.200 person that they're impersonating, which was shocking to me. What 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.560 about the people doing this from prison? So prisoners are 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:12.280 actually submitting their identification cards, their inmate identification cards as 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.080 their drivers licenses, and some of them were able to 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.320 get through just using that ext but they wouldn't qualify, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.720 is what you're saying. They should you know, they're getting 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:27.760 through the system. Yeah, So when you step back from 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.440 all of this, I mean it feels rather existential, like 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.680 we need we have millions of people who need this money. Um, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.080 even if it's a sieve, at least some of it's 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.040 going there. Like, how are we how we're going to 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.400 look back on all of this, do you think? So? 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.160 One thing in terms of good news is that biden 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.960 latest stimulus bill, the American Rescue Act, allocated about two 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.320 billions states divided among states to address in part fraud 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.080 and so that may help in the coming months sort 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.600 of alleviate some of the stress that the states are facing. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.240 But overall this, you know, this really becomes a taxpayer issue, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.040 and you know, Americans are going to have to flip 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:08.520 this bill. If the government can't we coop the dollars. Well, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.920 and I think the other thing is to um, what's 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.160 interesting about this story. What's important about this story is 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.360 we have talked about it so much leading up to 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.040 the massive stimulus package being passed and talking about the 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:23.120 importance of this money getting into the economy, consumers having 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.160 access to it, Olivia to spend, and to help out 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.480 with the recovery. I mean, there's there's lots of moving 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.160 parts to this, but you know that's what we're kind 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.400 of counting on to get this economy, uh, continuing to 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.160 be on track. Right. We talked so much about retail 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.560 sales and consumer spending driving the recovery, but when we 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.680 have examples like in this story a couple of week 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.360 spoke to who couldn't get their unemployment insurance because they 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.520 were flagged for FROG even though they weren't criminals. Um, 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.600 that just holds back, you know, the entire economy as well. Hey, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.000 you mentioned that that this is a backward looking number. 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:58.440 What do we have to keep an eye on with 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.960 the pushing through the one point nine trillion dollar stimulus 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.520 plan to to see if any of the changes that 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:08.040 have been made to better secure these funds are actually working. Right. So, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.760 there's a government body called the Office of the Inspector General, 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.199 and they've been putting out reports every couple of months 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.480 on the estimated amount of money that they think is fraudulent. 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.159 And so, you know, as we continue to see this 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.800 money go out, we look on our side, keep looking 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.560 at these reports and seeing if they've kind of noticed 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.760 the percentage of total dollars being paid to fraud go 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:32.920 down or change it all right. I mean, listen, it's 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.680 a massive system already kind of you know, strained, and 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.600 then if you've got to go after fraud claims or 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.480 fraudulent claims, uh, and a lot of them, I can 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:42.800 just imagine how difficult it is for the system to 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.520 get on top of it. Thank you so much, Olivia Rockman. 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.000 That's our story. US economy reporter at Bloomberg News on 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.080 the phone in New York. Jil Weber, editor of Bloomberg 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.240 Business Week, on the remote access from Brooklyn. This is 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.240 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes. 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.040 Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. Great to have back with us. 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.639 Joseph Stiglitz. He is co chair of the Commission on 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.080 Global Economic Transformation at the Institute for New Economic Thinking, 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:11.119 Nobel Laureate economists, Colombia University Professor of economics, author of 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.920 numerous books, including People Power and Profits. Professor Stiglitz is 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.120 joining us on the phone in New York City. Professor Stiglitz, 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.760 great to have you back here on Bloomberg Radio. UM, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.160 let's talk about first of all, this report that you 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.240 and the team at the Institute for New Economic Thinking 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.240 have put out, and this is about dealing with the 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.640 pandemic and the importance of it being a global effort 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.800 and one that takes care of the developing world. What 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.720 are you seeing currently though that warranted you and your 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.680 team coming out and putting out this missive. Well, the 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:49.800 key point is that that, uh, the developing countries, particularly 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:56.639 in emerging markets, are not untrapped to have the kind 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.359 of UH light at the end of the tunnel that 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:05.760 we're beginning to see in the United States into distinct areas. UH, 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.160 we're getting vaccinated. President Biden talked about July four being 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.320 I heard day of independence from the from the COVID 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.080 nineteen And there are many many countries, as we document 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.960 around the world that have not had a single vaccine. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:25.000 They just can't get access, UH, they can't afford it. UH. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.040 And one of the points we make is that that 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.400 supply constraint is in part artificial. UH. The second thing 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:37.880 is the United States has spent approximately seventeen thousand dollars 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:45.080 UH per capita GDP on UH the Economic Recovery, the 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.280 Rescue Act UH, combined with the Cares Act that was 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:55.160 past last spring and the December bill UM. The developing 0:19:55.200 --> 0:20:00.600 countries are spending a fraction of that because they just 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.680 don't have the money. UH. They're spending on average somewhere 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.880 between two dollars and seventeen dollars per capita. Compare that 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:13.640 with seventeen thousand dollars in the United States. Professor, Let's 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.080 start with the recovery when it comes to vaccinations around 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.320 the world, then get to economics in just a few 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.760 minutes here, But obviously the two are intertwined. I gotta ask, 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:26.000 you know, when it comes to this virus the way 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.119 that we're looking at it, I think so many Americans 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.160 look at it from a perspective of where they live, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:34.440 right in their neighborhood, who who they're around in their city, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.159 and those are the statistics that they're looking at. How 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.560 easy it is to get them a vaccine. Make the 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.920 case as to why we should take a global approach 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.159 and why we're not out of the pandemic until the 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:48.240 world is vaccinated. The real reason, one of the real 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.560 reasons we are to be concerned is this virus seems 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:59.080 particularly successful in mutating, and as long as it's mutating, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.639 as long as it's flourishing in any part of the world, 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.840 and the longer it flourishes, the more mutations, some of 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.639 those mutations are going to come back. And to put it, 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.840 you know, bite us. We don't know when, and we 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.240 don't know how bad it will be, will be Will 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:21.480 those mutations be more um, contagious, more deadly uh with 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.840 a uh. We just don't know. So we are at 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:29.800 a very big risk letting this UH virus just basically 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.199 flourish in some parts of the world. And listen, not 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.920 apples to apples, but professor Stick, you know, coming off 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.320 of the financial crisis, I think we learned hopefully a 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.199 lot in terms of we thought this was going to 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.240 be developed, you know, the developed world thing. We thought 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.200 it really spread around the globe. In terms of the crisis. 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.760 Is there something that we can or should have learned 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.000 from that crisis that we can carry over to this 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:56.080 crisis in terms of its impact globally. What you remember 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.720 in that particular crisis, Uh. The G twenty was founded 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.760 on the basis of the recognition that we needed to 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:10.040 have a global economic recovery. Gordon Brown, who was the 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.280 Prime Minister of the UK at the time, was particularly forceful. 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.879 He pointed out that if one country is doing well, 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.760 it helps its neighbors, and if it's doing poorly, it 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:25.040 hurts its neighbors. UH. We've lost enormous number of jobs 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:29.680 in the export area because of the global slowdown. So 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.440 it's just in our own self interest that there will 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.680 be a strong global recovery. UH. And certain sectors, of course, 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.760 if we don't have a slow, strong recovery, they just 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.080 won't be able to get back on their feet. So 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.600 that's UH on the economic side, why it's so important 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.240 for this to be a global recovery. Back in two 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.000 thousand eight nine, China played a very big role in 0:22:55.080 --> 0:23:00.960 that global economic recovery. UH. It grew really uh, very 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:05.399 very strongly. UH. This year China is the only major 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:10.000 country growing, but it's only growing about three UH. Next 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:17.280 year is expected somewhat stronger, but uh uh with Europe 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:22.919