WEBVTT - Ran Morissett 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.480 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.360 Today we have an episode with Golf Club Atlas founder 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.640 randmri Set. But first I'm very excited to announce that 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.360 today's episode is powered by tdam or trade. Every stroke 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.560 counts on the scorecard and every penny counts in the market. 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.079 That's why tedamror Trade is committed to straightforward pricing with 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.320 no surprises, so you're free to swing with confidence. Visit 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:34.440 tdamritrade dot com backslash Friday Egg member sbi C. Now, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.840 without further ado, here's randmri Set. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.360 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:43.760 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.800 And when I find my ball in a frid Egg 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.440 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg Egg, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.800 Frida Egg bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:52.920 off the thelf course. 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.279 You're a big proponent of dogs on a golf course. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.240 Why has America lost its way and not allowed dogs 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.600 for the most part on golf courses. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.000 Well, Americans are good at always coming up with excuses, 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.800 and they'll talk about the litigious nature of society and 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.319 if somebody's dog went over and barked and bit somebody 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.039 that the club would be Libel and da da da 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.760 da da. But you know, they've done it in the 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.880 UK for one hundred and fifty years. It's just part 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.760 of the game, as part of the evolution of the game, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.040 and somehow they are able to figure out how to 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.840 do it and we're not. So I'm not going to 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.320 come up with excuses for why it wouldn't work here. 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.520 I just know that it works over there. 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.920 Yeah, it seems like it would give It would make 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.880 the game way more approachable. Also, I think about it. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.480 My wife isn't a big golfer, but she loves our dog, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.480 and if I go out and walk with the dog, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.760 she's exponentially more likely to come walk with me. 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.240 Exactly. I mean, you read the article I wrote in 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.720 Golf Week. I mean it just literally, My fondest memories 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.880 are the five Morissets and our dog Sandy going to 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.640 the golf course that Trump's playing, Cypress Point or Pine 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:42.160 Valley or whatever. And I feel like the next I'm 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.560 fifty five, that the generations behind me are getting cheated 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.280 of something. At least in this country. They're not in 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.240 the UK, but they are here, and you know, I 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:53.200 lament that fact. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:59.840 Besides dogs, what are kind of the say, virtues of 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.760 UK golf versus an American goth you'd most like to 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.359 see come to America. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:12.080 Well, you know, in the UK, golf is a integral 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.480 but relatively small part of your life. You should be 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.600 able to go play eighteen holes, have a match with 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.800 your friend maybe Stableford, in three hours or less. You 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:25.640 have a pain at the end of the round in 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.600 your back home, all within four hours. In America, it's 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:35.000 going to you might be looking at a six, seven, 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:39.040 eight hour proposition and it's just so much you know, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.120 it's this infinitely more time consuming and therefore to a 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.040 certain degree, it's just that much more selfish. I mean, 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.040 it's a selfish pursuit. You're doing something that makes you happy. 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.960 You're leaving your kids and your wife and your dogs 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:56.320 at home, and so you know, I just I like 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:02.200 the way that the Brits do it. You know, if 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.400 it takes several hours and you scoot right back home, 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.400 you know it's in proportion to its worth in your life, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:10.880 and you can get on and do all kinds of 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.760 of other things. So you know, one of the and 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.799 that you know, you can't walk a seven thousand yard 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.720 course in two hours forty five like you can swim 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.760 Ley Forest. You know, I can play two rounds at 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.359 Swinley Forest in the time that it takes to walk 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:35.760 a quote unquote championship course in the United States. And 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.559 so you know, I'm I'm I'm just a huge fan 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.320 of six thousand, sixty one hundred sixty two hundred yard courses. 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.000 Part does not need to be reached, certainly seventy two, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.640 it can be sixty eight, sixty seven. You get your 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.760 exercise in, you know, in a timely manner. And I 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.200 think that that's you know that the Brits approach it 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:02.840 like that. I've never seen a Brit stand off to 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.440 the side of a green and write his score down 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.360 right after holding out. And you know, through golf club 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.719 battlests have had a lot of guests here and when 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.560 I take them to Southern Pins Country Club. If somebody 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.280 asked me after the first hole, what'd you get, I 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.800 know that I've made a misjudgment and inviting that guy, 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:27.560 and of course I'll always have some kind of witty 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.120 retort for that. But you know, the card and pencil 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.640 mentality that Mackenzie hated is alive and well here, but 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:37.720 I don't see it in the UK. 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.039 It's the thing that drives me the most nots is 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.240 if I'm in the group behind a group that's in 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.800 carts and you know, they walk off the green and 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.000 they put their putters in their bag and they get 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.000 in the cart, and then one will take off and 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.080 one will be paused there for a second, and you 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.680 know that they're writing down the scores for the whole. 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.520 Sad to say. I mean, if you see that unfolding, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.000 probably just playing the wrong golf course, you know, I mean, 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.680 it's just not You're not going to have kindred spirit 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.359 golfers of the sort of golf that you and I like, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.440 you know around you, and that's just too bad. 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:14.559 It's Southern Pines. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.800 That's one of the hidden gems of American golf. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.520 It's you know, it's a delight. I mean, I contend 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:27.040 that it's on the best property in Moore County. Every 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.479 hole rises or falls twenty thirty feet. The green to 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:37.560 tea walks are very short. I've lived here. I moved 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.960 here in two thousand and Chris buy and I go 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:46.520 out many evenings after work to play anywhere from five 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.360 to eleven or twelve holes, and you know, we're closing 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.960 in on twenty years of having done that, and not 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:57.680 once if I made the mile drive thinking, gee, I 0:06:57.720 --> 0:06:59.479 wish I was doing something else. I mean, I'm always 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.920 keen to get to the golf course. And a lot 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.480 of that's just because the land is so good. Yes, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.560 all the detail work, you know, the ross detail work 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.320 is missing, the greens have been modified, but nonetheless the 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.200 appeal of the land just shines through their only homes 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.440 on two of the holes, and oftentimes we'll skip those 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:24.440 two holes. And regardless of how I left the house, 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.400 I will be coming home in a better mood. If 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.680 I was in a great mood when I left the house, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.120 I'll be in an even better mood when I return. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.840 So my wife, Fritz is always keen to shove me 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.000 out the door and let me go get my hour fixed. 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.200 It's funny I was. It was the middle of winter 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.080 we left for this trip, and the one of the 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.280 first nights, I was really stressed out, had been working 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.160 all day, and I went out to a course and 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.560 walked nine and like forty five fifty minutes came back 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.320 and my wife was like shocked. I was in a 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.679 completely different state of mind. And it's just amazing how 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.600 like the spiritual, like the release, Like it's almost like 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.640 meditation getting to go out and walk and play golf. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.480 So you didn't race home and enter your scores into 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.880 the Gin handicap system and compute how many greens and 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.040 regulation you had and how many pots. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:20.840 I wasn't keeping my stats. 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.880 Yeah, I was just putting with a pin in. I 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.680 was you know, I was hitting a second chip if 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.360 I wanted to hit a second chip. But most importantly, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.440 I was just hitting the golf ball and walking. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.160 That's what golf's for, and that just that message somehow 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:41.000 gets lost in this country. And again, people are free 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.480 to turn the sport into anything that they want to. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.320 But for me, you know, it's pure relaxation. A friend 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.040 of mine once said, well, you don't ever play for money, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.480 and I was like, I play for something you know 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.280 much better than that. I mean, it's just you know, 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.400 bragging rights, and he just he didn't understand that. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.440 That's I went through. I was a competitive golfer for 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.320 you know, I still play some competitive golf, but I 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.920 was playing for score and I found myself. I got 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.120 kind of you know, loss in my way. But then 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.320 when I started writing and reading more about architecture three 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.480 years ago, then all of a sudden, the enjoyment of 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.079 golf like spiked. I cared so much less about what 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.640 I was shooting, what I was scoring, and I was 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.400 just enjoying walking and observing what was going on around 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.640 me on the golf course. And it was just an 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.760 enlightening moment. And I think that's the thing that people 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.959 get lost with the It is the American mentality. It's 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.400 always like striving. And what's ironic about it is at work, 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.280 you're always striving to be better. You're trying to you know, grow, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.280 And that's like, you know, that's your where do the 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.480 stress comes from? Right? It's like, why are we putting 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.800 this all the stress on when we're doing a leisure activity. 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.079 If I want stress, I'll stay at my desk. It's 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.839 this meant to be a pure form of laxation. And 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.720 again I don't know why. You know, let's say that 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.920 you instead of shooting seventy five, you wanted to shoot 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.240 seventy three. Well, how much more short game time is 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.880 that going to take for you? To be away from 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.400 your wife to try and lop those two shots off. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.240 And that's where it just becomes, you know, more and 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.640 more and more of a selfish pursuit. And really the 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.120 only person who cares what you shoot is you. I mean, 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.000 there's not a person in the world who cares what 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.640 you shoot other than yourself. And you know, all I 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:43.120 can try and do is hope and pray to break eighty. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.480 And you know, if I do, you know there's a 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:48.640 sense of satisfaction. And if I don't, who cares. But 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.360 one thing, you won't hear me talk about it because 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:52.480 I know nobody cares. 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.720 That's exactly, nobody cares for yourself about what you're doing, 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.320 or the guy, maybe the guy that you're playing a 0:10:59.360 --> 0:10:59.880 match against. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.840 But yeah, but then there's just match play and there's 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:03.880 no score, right. 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.000 Yeah, Well, I think that's like a big thing, is 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:10.080 the match play component, Like how much quicker things would 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.360 play and how much differently course design would have been 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:17.040 had match play been the predominant form of the game 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:18.960 in the US versus stroke play. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.000 Well, you know, we've just profiled Somerset Hills and White 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.200 Bear Yacht Club on Golf Club that list and both 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.520 of those in with three hundred and forty three hundred 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.680 and fifty yarders, both of which you know, if you're 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.120 in a tight match against a good player, you're pushing 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:38.840 for three. It's really hard to achieve. And you know, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.720 it's a great match play holes. They don't fit into 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:47.200 the American norm of the big, tough, you know, brutish, strong, 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.160 two shotter in the round. But again in match play, 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.360 you know, you know, to me, it's much more interesting. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.760 Could you birdy the whole and win versus get a 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:03.160 par and you're opponent, you know, Bogie's has a mishap. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.480 What you're evaluating, say a golf course, and you just 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:15.080 touched on to non championship golf courses by certainly today's standards, 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.839 fun golf courses to play versus a brutish championship course. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.520 How do you do you do you kind of look 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.240 at them as two different types of golf. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.880 No, I mean it just you know, the only thing 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.520 that I know leaving a golf course is do I 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.520 want to come back? That's the only thing that matters 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.080 to me. And if I do want to, you know, 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:45.760 I'd never understand somebody who says, you know, I just 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.040 loved it. I had the best time. You know, do 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.240 you think you'll ever go back now? I mean, you 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.560 know there as you know, and that is the as 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.760 ease of travel has come about in the last two decades. 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.439 There are now a lot of chasers and people running 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.800 around ticking boxes. I've played here, I've played here, and 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.400 you know, if a guy has played a golf course 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:14.640 one time, you know, he might have some surface remarks 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:20.520 about it that you can pretty much read anywhere. I'm 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.960 much more interested in the guy who's played at two, three, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:28.280 four five times and really taken the time to start 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.480 to get to know the course. But it all comes 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.480 back to, you know, do you want to return. I'll 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:40.040 never forget the first time I played Castle Stewart. I 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.960 just felt like I missed, you know, I wasn't hitting 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.000 the ball well, I was always out of position. I 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.000 just felt like I was missing something and I just 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.120 knew that I was super keen to return. And so 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.839 a few years ago, Fritz and I went up there 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.160 in November. There are very few people. We stayed for 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:05.680 three days and everything just opened up before me and 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.680 it's just been one of my favorite courses ever since. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.920 But it only happens based on familiarity. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.040 That I feel the same way as I was talking 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.520 to somebody the other day about Old Town Club and 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.960 they're like, I'm surprised you're not hitting Old Town Club 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.560 on this trip. And I was like, well, I talked 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.240 talked to a guy at the club at Dunlop who 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.240 suggests I come back in the fall. Plus I didn't 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.600 want to just squeeze in one day, Like, if I'm 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.640 going to go there, I want to go I want 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:38.320 to be there for. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:40.400 At least too properly. 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.640 Yeah, And it's funny because, like what you were just 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.240 talking about in Castle Stewart, I played. So I played 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.160 National Golf Links for the first time this year, and 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:55.200 the first round it was like I felt sensory overload, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.720 you know. I walked off the golf course and I 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.160 was like, you know, I've seen so much stuff that 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.720 exactly that you were. I was struggling to pros and 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.560 and then I got I got to go back again 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.160 that week and play it again, and I picked up more. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.160 And then and then I went later in the year, 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.280 and you pick up more that that time. I played 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.040 with older equipment, so I picked up even more, Like 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.400 you know, I'm playing with a ballota and all of 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.160 a sudden, this T shot on seventeen isn't just bashed 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.600 up the left. It's like, oh my god, I'm seeing 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.040 bunkers I hadn't seen before. And that's the thing is 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.120 with these great golf courses, you learn so much more 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.640 and more and more every time around them, and it's 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.560 almost it's unfair to even that's something with a rating system. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.880 And I wanted to ask you, is like, how do 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.440 you even cast judgment on a golf course one time around? 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.800 Especially with the you know, the great ones. 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.960 You know a lot of people. I remember a friend 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.520 of mine, Ted Sturgis, from Indianapolis. We went to see 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.960 Chambers Bay, Tom Doaks Course in Washington State, Tumble Creek, 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:07.000 and the David McClay kid Course, Gamble Gamble's Hands and 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.760 we was about a five day trip and Ted asked 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.680 me at the end, and then we saw Waverley and 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.880 then the Cow Club. He goes, so, you know, how 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.960 would you rank the five courses? And I said, Ted, 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.600 you know, asked me in five weeks and I'll have 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.280 had time to kind of mull it over. But you know, 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.360 you know, I think that's a little bit part of 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.600 the danger. And I'm not I know, I have a 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.760 Twitter account and people are tweeting at me, but I 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.640 can't remember my password to ever respond. But I think 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:42.360 that's a real danger. I personally would be very leery 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.880 of making tweets leaving a golf course because I just 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.360 you know, there's no rush. The world's not waiting for 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.800 your opinion on a golf course. You might as well 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.440 take the time to you know, to kind of roll 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.400 it around. And I think about it. You know, it's 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.040 always been ironic to me. We expect our architects to 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.080 live and die on a site and only do two 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.760 or three courses max in a year, and then we 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.160 blow in and out in five hours to render some 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.680 you know, judgment. Where's the fairness in that? It's just absurd. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.800 People always are like, you don't write your review, like 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.040 you write about golf course right away when it's freshest, 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.159 and I'm like, well, I don't forget about it. I 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.920 actually think more about it. And then you know what, 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.920 the stuff that sticks with you the most too, right 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:38.560 when you wait. So you started golf Club Atlasts in 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.440 the late nineties, How did it come to be? And 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.760 for anybody that's listening that's not gone to the site. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.639 It's essentially, I mean, something that's inspired me since I 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.440 was a kid and read and you know, there's unbelievable 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.160 troves of information about golf architecture on it. 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.320 Well, to be honest, I was bullied into starting it. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.240 Some friends of mine had some software and they wanted 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.440 to prove to corporations that it worked. And they asked 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.520 me if I had anything that they could load into 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:18.600 it that would demonstrate its viability. And I said no, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.240 And they came back and said, well, do you ever 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.399 take pictures of anything? I said, apart from golf courses? No, 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.119 And they said, well, you know, have you ever written 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.639 about golf courses? And it turned out my brother and 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.560 I wrote these little booklets and we would send them 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.439 to twenty or twenty five people. I said, yeah, I 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.040 enjoyed doing that. Said well, why don't you do some 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.760 course profiles. We can do this and this, And then 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.040 the clincher was they said you could have something called 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.160 a discussion group. And this is in nineteen ninety eight. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.080 I'm like, well, what's that and they said, well you 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.679 can post. And I'm living in Sydney Australia. You can 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.640 make a post and people around the world can read 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.480 it and then respond back. And at the time I 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:05.080 was going broke, calling people saying I just played Royal Melbourne, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.160 I just played Kingston Heath, I just played New South 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:12.160 Wales and I'm getting these enormous phone bills and I said, 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.360 so wait. Essentially, I thought, well, if I did that, 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.080 it would pay for these stupid phone calls of me 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.440 bragging to people. Sure enough, we started to assemble things 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.639 and we went live in the summer of nineteen ninety nine. 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.960 With this all a sudden ability for people to communicate, 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:34.720 exchange ideas, you know, share information. How do you think 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:40.680 golf architecture has changed with the founding of golf club Batlats. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.879 Well, you know, a lot of clubs do kind of 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:49.640 cloak and dagger stuff. I mean, I know growing up 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.560 that the power and control on what direction a golf 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.920 course was going to go resided with a few people. 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.199 Now there there's just so much more free flow of 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:09.399 information and it's available to anybody and all you have 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.320 to do is your due diligence. So there, in theory, 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.200 there should be a lot more educated people on golf 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.880 course architecture, you know, and in addition to the Internet 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:26.400 and websites and podcasts like yours, there was a real 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.360 resurgence starting in the mid nineties, just in printed literature, 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:32.600 a lot of fine golf books. I know you're a 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:37.160 huge fan of George Bado's book on CB McDonald and 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.960 just you know, just became an instant cornerstone book that 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.680 could disseminate, you know, valuable information to every McDonald rainter 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:50.080 course out there. And you see places like Sleepy Hollow 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.080 just latch onto it and and run with it. So 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.879 so there's so much better information out there, and and 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.159 it's available to all the members and I you know, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.280 and to be honest, you know what golf club at 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.000 lists has become since two thousand and six seven, with 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.800 the great implosion of new course construction, has really been 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.919 chronicling all the great restoration work because there's been a 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.760 paucity of new course construction. And you know, that's one 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.800 thing that America has done better than the UK. They 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:33.760 Americans have taken greater, more records and more detail has 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:40.639 gone into restoration projects here than elsewhere around the golf globe. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.840 It's something that American golf has done better than that. 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.480 That's a rare thing for some. It's actually, you know, 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:49.440 I never read thought about it that way. 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.359 And you know, I can whine a lot and wish 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.080 the sport was simpler here and wish it was more 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.520 akin to the UK roots. But that thought occurred to 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:04.440 me when I was in Edinburgh a few weeks ago, 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.760 that that that is. And I asked several of the 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:16.440 Scots I was with, and and nobody really would take 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.440 the other side of that argument that they're that they 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.120 do that are pure restoration work. 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.879 How long did you live in Australia seven years nineteen 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:32.760 eighty three to two thousand. How's the golf culture there 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.119 different from say the UK and America. 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:42.639 You know, it's a it's warmer, and so you'll see 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.960 the folks with the socks pulled up to their knees 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.960 and in short pants, and I don't think short pants 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.920 are allowed even at some of the clubs in the UK. 0:22:55.560 --> 0:23:00.920 They have the same culture. In terms of pull trolleys. 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:08.440 I don't ever recall seeing a caddy in Australia other 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:13.680 than at an event. You know it, if you're an 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:18.040 able bodied person in the UK or Australia, you're going 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:19.800 to take a pool cart or you're going to carry 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:21.879 your bag. I mean, you're not going to feel like 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.600 a ponce and have some guy do it for you 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:29.600 when you're perfectly capable. So in a lot of ways, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:34.800 it's just a warm weather version of golf. In the UK. 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:37.480 The biggest difference that they do is that they pull 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:43.320 their trolleys right across the greens rather than around the sides, 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.000 and you see so much of the you know, the 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:49.760 fringes in this country are oftentimes the worst presented part 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.000 of the golf course because they get so much traffic. 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.680 In Australia recognizes that and they say the hardest surface 0:23:57.760 --> 0:23:59.720 on the golf course is the putting surface and you 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:03.480 do the least damage, so just go, you know, drag 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:04.840 your card across. 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:09.919 It's funny. I as an American, you always walk around 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.080 and put your bag on the fringe. And I was 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:16.720 playing golf with Brian Palmer, who was the former superintendent 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.720 of Short Acres, and He's just putting his bag right 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.000 on the green and I'm like, well he's doing it 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.399 and you know, same idea. He's like me resting this 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.080 bag and he has, you know, a no stand carry 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.200 bag like a it was like a Mackenzie bag and 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:36.680 him putting it down. I mean that's less impact on 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:39.000 the green than somebody walking it. 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.959 You know, it makes sense. Another thing in Australia. I 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:46.639 remember if you hit it to within your first putt 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.199 to within two or three feet, and assuming you're not 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:52.440 named by his line, you are fully expected to hold out. 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.320 Nobody wants to see you mark clean the ball, step back, 0:24:56.440 --> 0:24:59.000 plumb bob, do this? Do that? You know there's a 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:03.639 great sense of urgency to you know, beat four hours 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.960 and just playing a you know, timely manner. Again, nobody 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:09.760 has the patience to watch you grind over a two 0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:10.480 and a half footer. 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:14.800 I don't have the patients to allow myself to rind 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:15.400 over too. 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:16.480 It just doesn't matter. 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.160 Yeah, now let's take a few moments to talk about 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.440 our sponsor. Today's episode is powered by tdamror Trade. Whether 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:25.560 on the course or in the market, it helps to 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:27.399 have a second set of eyes to keep you on 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.520 your game. That's why ted amor Trades Trade Desk is 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.160 here to help gut check your strategies so you always 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:37.440 feel confident teeing up a trade. Visit Tdomritrade dot Com 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:40.320 backslash Frida Egg to learn more about what their trade 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:44.480 desk can do for you. Member sbi C. Now back 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:47.320 to ran Moro set. One of the new things that 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:49.760 you added this year was a GCA is the one 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.640 hundred and forty seven Custodians of the Game. I thought 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:56.000 it was one of the best things I've read in 0:25:56.040 --> 0:25:58.840 a long time. Was the you know, the preamble to 0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:02.640 the to the list of courses. Tell us a little 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:06.760 bit about how you came up with that idea, why 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.320 you decided to put it out now, and kind of 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.119 the thought process behind what a true custodian of the 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:14.640 game is. 0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:19.200 Well, I have you know, you and I were talking 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:24.200 last night. You know, rankings and lists have taken on 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:32.800 negative connotations lately, but I've always enjoyed puzzling over what resonated, 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:34.720 what did and why do I like one course more 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:38.600 than the other? Blah blah blah. And so Tom Doak 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.520 asked me to join the Golf magazine panel in the 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:45.639 mid nineteen nineties when I was living in Australia, and 0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:51.960 I served on that panel, but I became frustrated by 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:55.160 several things that were going on, and I didn't think 0:26:55.480 --> 0:27:00.280 that the direction really represented in a speuse the the 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:03.480 kind of golf that I really enjoyed. So I resigned 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:08.600 from that panel in March or April, knowing full Well 0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:10.680 had already started to write the one hundred and forty 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.720 seven Custodians of the Game. And one of the things 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:15.679 that had prompted me was, you know, we write a 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:18.800 lot of course profiles on golf club batlests on courses 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:23.000 that are whether they're nine holers or six thousand, sixty 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:26.760 two sixty three hundred yards, and I've just received some 0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:32.479 of the nicest handwritten letters from people saying thank you 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:37.280 for being a voice of reason in the world, and 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:42.560 so prompted by that. You know, you know, it's one 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:45.800 thing if you feel like you're the only person who 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:48.359 enjoys that golf, and sometimes you would just kind of 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:50.840 keep your opinion to yourself, but I think there's an 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:55.960 enormous group of people who would enjoy playing, you know, 0:27:56.080 --> 0:28:01.240 three hour round golf and some of the things that 0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:04.520 we've talked about earlier on your show, and so I 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:10.960 tried to give a voice to to that, to to 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:14.760 what you know, would appeal and then some of the 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:20.639 things that you know that, like in America, you know, 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.880 some of the trappings of the game that don't actually 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:30.760 lend any real value. And so so I'm to be honest, 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:34.399 I am very proud. And I got a lot of 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:41.840 help from three or four people who asked to remain anonymous. 0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:44.960 But I was really really pleased with how it turned out. 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:50.080 And I was pleased with the outcome because there were 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:52.600 some people who were very upset that they didn't make it, 0:28:53.520 --> 0:29:00.520 which made me happy. And so you know it, you know, 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:04.240 and it really reached far and wide. I mean, I'm 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:10.600 a technological idiot, and I'm always amazed at you know, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:13.920 golf club battlests. Having been going for long enough, you know, 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:17.960 we have a reach into you know, all the corners 0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:24.520 of the world. And and it was and it was 0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:28.440 really pleasing. You know, a past captain of the RNA 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:33.360 sent a glowing email and to a guy like me 0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:35.960 who cares about the history of the sport, what can 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:37.640 you say? I mean, it just meant a lot. 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.360 Yeah, So where how does the list evolve? 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:46.080 Is there you know plans for updating changing as you 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:47.120 go along. 0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:50.040 The one hundred So it's interesting that you know, the 0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:51.720 one hundred and forty seven came about because there are 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:55.520 one hundred and forty seven Open Championships that have been held, 0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:57.800 and there have been a few missteps along the way, 0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.160 like Kerneusti where they lost control of the core twenty 0:30:01.240 --> 0:30:06.200 years ago, but by and large it's been a testament 0:30:07.240 --> 0:30:10.240 to the game. So I decided to do one hundred 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:14.200 and forty seven, and I said, with each Open Championship, 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:21.720 I'll add another course to the list, and you know, 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:24.440 in the process, over the course of a year, I 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:29.240 might play revisit ten or fifteen, you know, or so 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:35.640 of those courses, and so there'll be some some movement. 0:30:36.800 --> 0:30:40.200 Shawn Arble is a huge I'm just a huge, huge, 0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:43.240 huge fan of Shawn Arble's work in the United Kingdom 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:49.560 profiling these country English courses and working on a trip 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.680 with him and my friend Joe Andreoli in the first 0:30:52.680 --> 0:30:54.840 of September to go see a lot of common ground 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.400 courses up the west side of England. So I have 0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:02.040 a feeling that two or three of those will squeeze 0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:07.560 their way onto the list, and next it'll become one 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:10.600 hundred and forty eight Custodians. Even though somebody said that 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.200 the expression the one hundred and forty seven Constodians has 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.960 already wedged its way into the vernacular, and so you 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:18.360 ought to keep it at that, even though the number 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:22.040 will grow. And I think maybe that's the way I'll 0:31:22.040 --> 0:31:24.760 do it. And when it reaches one hundred and fifty 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:27.360 five courses, you'll know that it's been going for eight years, 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:31.320 and so it'd be a nice process. 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:35.040 Yeah, And it gives people a reason to reread that 0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:38.640 again every year, which is I think important is that 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:42.440 you're always good to reread stuff and like jog your 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:44.880 memory of Oh this is what's important. 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:47.720 Yeah, now you know it's fun. 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:48.000 You know. 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:51.240 One of the comments came from an architect who just 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.120 played Royal Port Rush and and the several times that 0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:58.719 I've been there, it has had really wet, thick, heavy 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:02.280 rough line on top of itself, and you know, it's 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:05.840 a course is not heavily bunkered, and obviously it's a 0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:09.160 very windy sight. And then I just feared with the 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:11.800 Open Championship coming there this year that it'd be even 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:16.600 more narrow. And so that's an example of a course 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:20.680 that didn't make it. And this architect was actually saying 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:25.040 the playing conditions were wonderful and the rough wasn't impenetrable. 0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:27.920 So some of that just has to do with, you know, 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.560 the weather in the time that you're there, and so 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.720 you know, they're you know, probably is a is a 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.320 course need to go revisit. 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:43.680 But when how do you get into golf courses in 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:46.880 the start? I mean, you've been traveling a ton, You've 0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:50.000 seen everywhere, you've been heavily. You're one of the co 0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:54.960 authors of the Confidential Guides with Tom Doak and Darius Oliver, 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:58.920 And how how do you, you know, kind of start 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:02.200 this golf crazed life. 0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:05.640 No, it's you know, it's one hundred percent due to Dad, 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:08.400 who took a very relaxed approach, and he would go 0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:11.200 play nine holes every night after work. And he never 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:14.600 put any pressure on us to go. And and as 0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:17.200 soon as you know, as soon as somebody doesn't want 0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:19.440 you to go, you want to go. So I mean, 0:33:19.880 --> 0:33:24.360 so you know, and and so we would, you know, 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.560 we started off like that. And Dad worked at a 0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:32.600 regional investment firm and in Richmond, Virginia, and there was 0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:37.920 a man named Harry Easterly who worked there too, and 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:41.000 mister Easterly later became the president of the USGA, and 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.440 was on it, was the executive director of the USGA, 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:47.840 and was a member at Saint Andrew's and Mirfield and 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:53.960 every Augusta and Pine Valley, and and mister Easterly took 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:59.400 an interest in my dad and father taking his three 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:06.280 sons to play golf, and so in nineteen eighty three, 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:10.800 when I was twenty years old, we took our first 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:14.120 trip to the UK and we played Dornock, Mierfield, Saint 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:21.840 Andrew's and Turnberry. And you know, if you didn't like golf, 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:26.080 then you know you didn't. If that didn't peak your 0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:31.160 interest in golf architecture, then something was wrong. And I 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:33.480 ended up working for the USJA for a couple of years. 0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:36.680 In nineteen eighty five eighty six, you know, I started 0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:41.440 to see Fisher's Island, Shinnecak Hills, played Augusta with mister Easterly, 0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:48.880 So you know, obviously an incredibly fortunate, spoiled, rotten life, 0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:56.120 but it all resonated. And then you know, comparing those courses, 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:58.319 though I was seeing some work going on to the 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:02.280 Country Club of Virginia where we remember, that just didn't resonate, 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:05.360 It didn't mesh what I saw these great courses, was 0:35:05.400 --> 0:35:08.359 what was going on with the local club. So you 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:14.520 start pondering, wondering, wondering, and you know, one of our 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:18.160 first trips was to Pinehurst and Harbortown. It was a 0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:20.680 family vacation from Richmond. We stopped in Pinehurst and we 0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:25.160 went down to Harbortown and you know, Harbortown has some 0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:31.200 obvious wow moments and really cool features and really cool greens. 0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:34.799 And I still think that in sand Hills are one 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:39.239 of the two greatest courses, you know, in the in 0:35:39.320 --> 0:35:43.160 the modern game. That changed the direction of the game. 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:46.799 But nonetheless, we walked away thinking that Pinehurst was all 0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:50.719 that bit more special and we just and on the 0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:53.760 ride home from Hilton Head to Richmond, which was something 0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:57.360 like eight nine hours, all we did was blabber about 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:04.200 why we thought that. And so that's when I'm fourteen fifteen. 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:07.239 You know, poor moms in the front. I'm sure she 0:36:07.280 --> 0:36:11.400 owned some ear plugs that I never saw, but you know, 0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:16.239 just trying to you know, you know, comparing Harbortown with 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:22.359 these you know, calibogie sound and high winds versus Pinehurst, which, 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.840 other than a couple of holes, doesn't move up or down, 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:30.400 you know, more than ten or fifteen feet. It really 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:35.040 was an interesting mental exercise. So just you know, from that, 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:38.560 from that first Pinehurst Harbortown trip to the UK trip 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:42.440 to some exposure to the Northeast courses, including like Yale University, 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:47.000 you know, it was a recipe for falling in love 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:48.880 with the study of golf architecture. 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:54.839 Yeah, the I think that's the Yale's one that kind 0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:58.279 of I think can show what a like how a 0:36:58.320 --> 0:37:01.400 person views the game. I was playing with a random 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:06.040 guy yesterday and he was like, oh, that towel, I 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:08.320 have a Yale towel and he couldn't see the whole towel. 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.360 He's like that that looks like a that's a really 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:13.840 wild course. Like and he was you know, in a 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:16.360 in kind of a tone that was like he didn't 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:21.239 like it, and like the blind shots and everything. You 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:23.480 could just tell like, oh, this is the type of 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:25.959 but and I don't want that to sound the wrong way, 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.239 but I said, oh, yeah, that's amazing place, huh. And 0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:34.040 he's like, yeah, it's something. And but you know that 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:35.560 that place is like an adventure. 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:39.720 Yeah. I went up there when I joined the USA 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.880 in eighty five and so I'm in Bernardsville and Yale. 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.120 From Bernardsville, it was on a weekend. I went with 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:49.279 Wes Seely, who's the director of communication, and we saw 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:52.080 Herbert Warren wind up on the patio, wrapped up in 0:37:52.120 --> 0:37:56.000 a blanket, and that was awesome. But when we got 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:58.240 back to the USGA and we said, yeah, we drove, 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:01.640 you know, two and a half hours to Yale. And 0:38:02.120 --> 0:38:05.680 the man's response was, why did you go there? There's 0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:09.759 so many better conditioned courses in Connecticut, and you know, 0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:12.959 and yes, there was goose droppings all over the third 0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:15.560 Green and YadA YadA, YadA, YadA YadA. And I came 0:38:15.600 --> 0:38:19.640 back just blown away by that golf. I mean, it 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:23.720 was just eye opening, and you know, talking about inspiring 0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:26.640 and da da da da dah. And and then you know, 0:38:26.680 --> 0:38:29.880 that guy's comment was just this bucket of cold water. 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:31.880 And I just knew right away that he and I 0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:34.440 were coming at the sport from two different things, you know, 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:37.279 two different angles. And again not saying you know, there's 0:38:37.320 --> 0:38:41.400 a right or wrong, but you know, I'll stick with 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:42.400 my perspective. 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:47.080 That's something that I think about all the time, especially 0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:53.200 with Augusta National, is that Augusta National has this ability 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:57.440 that it you know, it essentially shapes the way so 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:00.880 many people look at the way at golf. But the 0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:05.120 thing that people take away from Augusta National seemingly always 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:10.319 as the conditions and the beautiful flower beds rather than 0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:14.200 like when it opened it had twenty two bunkers and 0:39:14.520 --> 0:39:16.759 it's got why, you know, for the most part, really 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:21.600 wide fairways and strategic bunkers, limited force carries, extremely playable 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:25.880 Like why do you think that's what the average American 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:26.799 golfer takes away? 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:35.520 Yeah, you know, boy, Augusta You know, for a lot 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:40.080 of people, it kicks off their golf season. You know, 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:43.239 if you live in Boston, you might not have hit 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.560 a shot, and so it's just the awakening of a season. 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:51.359 So there's an automatic built in euphoria. But I mean, 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:54.920 you know, from my perspective, last time I checked, Alistair 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.600 Mackenzie was viewed as a good architect and the changes 0:39:58.640 --> 0:40:01.640 that have been made there in the last twenty years 0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:06.080 have really pivoted away from the from Bobby Jones. From 0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:10.799 Bob Jones and Alistair Mackenzie's original thoughts. And you know, 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:14.160 when they built that course, you know, the world's greatest courses. 0:40:14.600 --> 0:40:16.960 You know, in the thirties, you know, it was Pine 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:19.319 Valley and it was Oakmont and then like you say, 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:24.200 this course comes along with huge, wide fairways, just a 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:28.840 handful of bunkers, but a lot of really cool plane angles. 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:33.920 And then systematically, you've seen them this century reduce the 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:36.759 plane angles, and you know, I just find it appalling. 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:40.080 You know, the tree placement down the eleventh hole. You know, 0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:42.640 maybe if they had narrow if they'd put in trees 0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:44.719 on the left side of the fairway and push it 0:40:44.800 --> 0:40:46.800 over to the right. But I mean they just totally 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.879 ruined all of the plane angles right now. You want 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:54.600 to be, you know, ten yards into trees to have 0:40:54.680 --> 0:40:58.400 the best angle into the green, and so, you know, 0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:05.120 it's evolution is very regrettable. I'm personally shocked at how 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:09.080 the rankings, all the magazines just give it a free pass. 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.760 I mean, it really is the Holy Grail type place, 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:18.120 and the poor work that goes on there just gets 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:21.560 a pass, and I don't know, you know, that's its clout. 0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:27.520 I did an interesting article last year during the Masters. 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:32.440 I looked at this scoring dispersion of holes from nineteen 0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:36.400 eighty two till now, and the eleventh is like shocking 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:42.200 is essentially they've traded birdies and double bogies for pars 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:44.960 and bogies. Yeah, with the planting, like it's become such 0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:48.200 a one dimensional hole and it's taken away the thrills 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:53.640 and the near thrills that bounce into the water, and 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:55.560 all of a sudden, a double bogie comes out of 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:58.560 nowhere with a guy who thinks he can pull off 0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:00.680 a shot that's trying to but like now it's just 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:02.800 hidden in the fairway and if you're not in a 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:04.480 perfect spot, just bail out. 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:08.040 Right right now. Obviously, the US Open is now played 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:10.560 in April, and that's really a shame because the Masters 0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:13.200 used to have its own voice and it morphed into 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:16.160 the US Open, and you know, we already have a 0:42:16.239 --> 0:42:20.160 US Open, So let's go back to that brand of golf. 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:24.680 You know, there are some rumblings that they are cognizant 0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:29.760 that they want to get back to how the course 0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:32.840 used to be. And of course those trees can be 0:42:32.960 --> 0:42:37.319 gone in a second. On the eleventh hole, just as 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:39.799 an example, but the back tee on seven, you know, 0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:47.360 four hundred and fifty five yard tea to that shallow green. 0:42:47.760 --> 0:42:50.480 You know, it's just it's just it's bad architecture, it's 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:54.120 bad golf. You know, you would think they would know better. 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:56.239 I mean, to their credit, they don't even hardly use 0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:58.000 the t anymore, but they to just they ought to 0:42:58.040 --> 0:42:59.640 get rid of it. 0:43:00.480 --> 0:43:02.960 You know, with the modern game and the modern driver, 0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:07.840 modern ball. I always reminds you of the McDonald quote 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:10.799 with the Haskell ball where you talked about how you 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:13.919 know the Haskell ball has you know, created, has made 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:18.280 great holes indifferent and made many in different holes really great. 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:21.200 And if the seventh a three hundred and fifty yard 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.719 hole with a shallow green with a wide fair away 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:27.080 would be one of the most compelling holes on the 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:29.520 golf course. With the modern game, it's like, where are 0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:31.279 the guys going to drive it up to? Are they 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:33.400 going are they going to try it drive it really close? 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:35.680 Or are they going to lay back? You know, all 0:43:35.680 --> 0:43:37.680 of a sudden, some guys might be on the right day, 0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:39.360 with the right wind, be able to drive the green, 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.440 and all of sudden that hole would be one of 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:44.719 the most fun holes to watch on a golf course 0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.720 that's got a ton of you know, unbelievable holes to watch. 0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:50.440 Yeah, I'm not a fan of courses where you automatically 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.560 pull the driver every single time. And if they would 0:43:53.560 --> 0:43:56.600 play that hole from a three point fifty to four 0:43:56.680 --> 0:43:59.040 hundred yard I think you would see four or five 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:02.840 different clubs pulled by different players, and in certain conditions, 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:04.919 some people would probably try and driving into the green 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:09.920 side bunker. But it'd be infinitely more interesting than having 0:44:09.960 --> 0:44:14.560 everybody hit driver and having you know, eight iron in. 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.719 Obviously, I think we'd be in the same boat where 0:44:18.719 --> 0:44:22.200 we'd love to see Augusta National transform back to what 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:28.759 it was. What are some of the projects that you've seen, say, 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:31.560 over the course of GCA that have been the most 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:35.480 inspirational in the sense of like transforming a golf course. 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:44.359 One would be Sleepy Hollow where, you know, back when 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:46.560 I worked at the USCA, we had a dinner there 0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:48.680 at once and nobody wanted to play the golf course, 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:50.919 so it was just a having dinner in the Vanderbilt 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:56.280 former state. And now nobody would go to Sleepy Hollow 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:58.759 and not beg to play the golf course. I mean, 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:03.640 that's transformational. Los Angeles Country Club. You know, George Thomas 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:07.919 is an absolute legend and hero his work had been 0:45:08.719 --> 0:45:13.000 so mistreated and and at Los Angeles you now see 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:16.640 that he's one of the you know, handful of greatest 0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:23.239 architects ever. You know, one restoration project that I think 0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:27.239 really flew under the radar because it's a it's a 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:31.560 pretty quiet club as the country Club of Brooklyn. Again, 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:35.520 Gil Hans did it and just did uh, you know, 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:40.960 top tier work. I was amazed to read some negative 0:45:41.640 --> 0:45:44.839 comments about the course. But that's such a cool, old 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:48.600 fashioned course with you know, the smallest greens aside of 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:53.880 Pebble Beach that it represents a very appealing throwback. And 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:57.000 now with the work that's occurred there that you know, 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:01.000 they fully embraced that again. You know, I want to 0:46:01.040 --> 0:46:03.319 go to a golf course that's different. I don't want 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:06.040 to go to a golf course that I've seen twenty 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:11.239 five different versions of. In the country club, you know, 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.880 in it's old fashioned ways, you know, it has its 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:15.520 own voice. 0:46:16.040 --> 0:46:19.120 That's I think that's an important part is it's not 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.960 about doing what the course down the street does. It's 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:25.240 about doing what your course is, you know, and finding 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:31.839 that unique feel, vibe, architecture, the funky stuff, getting that 0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:35.840 back and making yours, not, you know, like the course 0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:38.360 down the street, and then make them look at it 0:46:38.440 --> 0:46:40.360 and say, I want to be like that golf course. 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:44.560 You know, you couldn't be more spot on. But in 0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:48.200 the sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties, it was the club 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:51.760 down the road is planting trees, and so we should 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:55.839 plant trees. And so the courses just became more and 0:46:55.880 --> 0:46:59.799 more the same. And you know what's the point in that. 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.880 Well, I mean part of that, though, is that it 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:06.680 tied with the trend of society that was, like the 0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:11.480 mass suburbanization, everybody moving to the suburbs, everybody's you know, 0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:14.719 these housing developments that had the houses that looked exactly 0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:17.799 the same right down the road. And I think that's 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:22.080 one of the things. Golf architecture follows trends in society 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:26.800 so much and a sense of I think we're starting 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:32.360 to see this shift back to hand craftsmanship, and it 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:35.280 falls in line with what's going on in the greater society, 0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:39.759 where people are more involved, more interested in experiences, and 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:43.880 more interested in, you know, buying lettuce that's locally farmed 0:47:44.239 --> 0:47:48.000 rather than the mass produced fifty cent lettuce. They wanted 0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:49.920 to have that they want to know where it's from, 0:47:50.040 --> 0:47:52.720 and I think that's where we're starting to see that. 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:55.200 I'd be interested. What do you think? You know, obviously 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:59.960 restoration has been a huge part of golf course architect 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:04.399 for the last you know, fifteen twenty years. What what 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:06.960 do you see as the next wave? 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:10.000 Well, you know, I speaking restorations. You know, you and 0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:12.680 I first met at the California Golf Club of San Francisco, 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:16.200 which you know, talking about a transformation. If you've I 0:48:16.239 --> 0:48:21.680 had honestly never heard of that golf course. It came 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:25.120 up in a few threads of golf Club Atlas, but 0:48:25.520 --> 0:48:28.000 you know the pictures that I saw it just it 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:31.719 didn't resonate, you know. Now, in my opinion, it's that 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:35.960 you know, it's the finest course you know in the 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:40.800 greater San Francisco area, and you know, talking about going 0:48:40.920 --> 0:48:44.560 from zero to ten in a rapid rate, I mean, 0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:49.799 that's a transformation that you just can't beat. So, you know, 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:54.520 I'm not sure, you know, to answer your question, I'm 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:57.120 not sure we need more golf courses. I'm not sure 0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:02.680 that golf is growing. Maybe it is with women. So 0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:07.480 I'm much more of a fan of taking care of 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:14.560 what we have. I do not play poor, bad golf courses. 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:18.760 I would rather not play than go play a poor course. 0:49:19.280 --> 0:49:23.799 And a lot of people their exposure to golf is 0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:27.080 by playing in different courses because their bodies just want 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:30.840 to play whatever's the cheapest golf course, and there's no 0:49:30.960 --> 0:49:35.440 hook to get you involved. So you know, if you 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:39.880 said all we were going to do until twenty fifty 0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:43.359 is get our house in order and take care of 0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:47.360 all the courses that we have in the world already, 0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:52.160 I would be perfectly happy with that. Barring that, obviously, 0:49:52.200 --> 0:49:55.160 what I'd like to see is, you know, some more 0:49:55.680 --> 0:49:59.520 nine hole courses, more six thousand yard courses come up, 0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:04.239 more courses that you know it could be, and they 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:08.160 have to be close to where people live. And the 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:11.600 problem in America is the pricing of land can be 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:15.520 prohibitive to then build something like that. But even as 0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:17.239 you and I discussed last night, even if it was 0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:21.279 a fivel golf course, I mean something, but just make 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:24.280 sure that it's that it's of you know, high quality. 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.799 It makes people think, it makes people want to hit 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:31.520 a bump and run shot. You have options. You know, 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:35.560 you can't have enough golf like that. 0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:42.080 Yeah, I agree, It's the interesting aspect of how courses 0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:44.880 have gotten so long to fit for technology is just 0:50:45.000 --> 0:50:47.880 like when you're building a new course, do you build 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:50.640 it to make it easy to walk for people playing 0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:54.520 the back teas or the middle ties. Either way, some 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:58.920 class of golfer because of the seven thousand yards is 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:02.759 going to have a bad walking experience where you're either 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.160 walking back to teas or you have to walk forward 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:08.480 all the time to teas, and and you're gonna have, 0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:12.080 you know, fifty seventy five yard walks between greens and teas. 0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:16.239 Yeah, I'm actually not even a fan of tea's. I 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:20.200 mean I say, prepare, give some prepared surfaces and let 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:26.760 just people pick where they want to play from. And 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:28.920 again you can't have you know, then you can't have 0:51:28.960 --> 0:51:30.960 a handicap if you're doing that and this and this 0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:34.000 and this. And you'll hear those arguments in this country, 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:35.080 but you won't hear them in the UK. 0:51:35.360 --> 0:51:36.760 Yeah. 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:40.080 I was playing with some guys and uh, you know, 0:51:40.120 --> 0:51:42.200 it's a course I played a bunch of times and 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:44.360 it was really windy, and it was this it's a 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:48.480 great there's this great risk reward par five like it's 0:51:48.480 --> 0:51:51.000 an infinitely better hole if you have a chance to 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:53.040 go for it into and it's playing into a twenty 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:55.640 five mile an hour wind. So I say to the guys, like, 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:58.480 let's go move up. We moved up to like the 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:02.680 green teas, which were, you know, one hundred and twenty 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:05.520 yards shorter than the back teas that we were playing, 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:08.560 just because I was like, you got to have a 0:52:08.640 --> 0:52:11.600 chance to go for this. It's a great golf hole, 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:13.680 and if you don't have it, like it's a it's 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:14.799 a much worse golf hole. 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:17.839 So we move up. Everybody's having to hit like. 0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:20.759 A long iron over you know, over water, try and 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:23.480 you know you either bail out or you go for it. 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:25.880 And you know everybody had you could tell had a 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:28.840 great time. It's like, why can't you just play a 0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:31.200 tee based off of how you want to play a hole. 0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:39.520 You'll get no argument from me. I mean again, you 0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:43.440 start putting all these rules and regulations you know around 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:45.680 a sport you have to take a cart, you have 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:48.279 to take a caddy. Well really do you? I mean 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:50.920 why just you know, like at the cow club, you 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:52.839 can carry your bag, you can take a pool cart, 0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:54.560 you can take a caddy, or you can you can 0:52:54.600 --> 0:52:57.600 do anything you want to. You know, they just assumed 0:52:57.640 --> 0:52:59.920 that the members have common enough sense to do the 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:00.600 right thing. 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:03.080 I can't believe that pole carts are not allowed at 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:04.680 a lot of clubs around the country. 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:07.480 Well again, it gets back to the false perception that 0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:10.400 somehow they're tied to municipal courses only, and you go 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:13.120 to Mierfield in Scotland and all you'll see your pool cards. 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:14.840 I mean, the members never going to hire a caddy. 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:18.440 So it's just it's just false. It's false perceptions that 0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:19.800 have been perpetuated. 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:26.719 And what bothers you more mandatory carts or no pull 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:27.440 carts allowed. 0:53:29.480 --> 0:53:31.800 Mandatory carts is a no go. So I'm just not 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.279 gonna be there. So that doesn't. 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:35.480 You know. 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:38.360 I mean, you know, again, I've had so many great 0:53:38.400 --> 0:53:43.239 experiences with caddies. It's not that conceptually that I have 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:47.480 a problem with caddies. You know, it's that you have 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:50.719 to take one. But if you do show, if you 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:52.759 do go to a place and they say, you know 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:58.400 there are no pool cards, you know that they're trapped 0:53:58.760 --> 0:54:04.000 back in time and that they're not you know, they're 0:54:04.120 --> 0:54:08.440 just you know, it's just it's just bad decision. Making, 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:11.279 so you're not likely to be with kindred spirits at 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:11.960 a place like that. 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:17.480 All right, last question, you're resident of the U Pinehurst 0:54:17.520 --> 0:54:20.040 Greater Pinehurst area. You got ten rounds? 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.800 How you splitting them? 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:26.520 Well, I will tell you. We're doing this interview on 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:31.080 March the first, and this is the absolute best time 0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:37.880 of year to be here. Like Pinehurst Number two plays 0:54:37.920 --> 0:54:45.360 perfectly with its dormant Bermuda Fairways, dormy Club dormant Bermuda Fairways. 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:50.080 So this time of year, I would lean heavily on 0:54:50.200 --> 0:54:54.560 those two courses, you know, Mid Pines and Pine Needles. 0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:58.360 For reasons that I don't understand. They both overseed and 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:05.000 those courses become much lower and less fun. Midpines sparkles 0:55:05.000 --> 0:55:09.759 in August with their new Bermuda Fairways, it can still 0:55:09.800 --> 0:55:13.960 be very bouncy, very firm. So I'm not trying to 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:20.759 hedge on your answer. It depends on what time of year. 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:23.640 You know, the big We've kind of got the Big 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:25.719 four and a half here, we've got Piner's number two, 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:29.120 we've got dormy Mid Pines, Pine Needles, and then you know, 0:55:29.160 --> 0:55:34.480 I'm a big fan of the Cradle, and then you know, 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:39.480 up the road, you've got Tobacco Road, and then just 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:42.040 for a quiet afternoon hit again. I've just never been 0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:44.880 disappointed by Southern pines. But those are the courses that 0:55:44.960 --> 0:55:48.719 you have to you have to see. 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:53.200 It's a funny when I plan my trip and everybody's like, well, 0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.440 why are you coming now? And I'm like, why am 0:55:56.480 --> 0:56:00.120 I coming now? When when else would you go? And 0:56:00.160 --> 0:56:03.000 then you listened to what Ross said about he was 0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:06.640 enamored with the way that played in the winter, and 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:09.280 it was closed in the summer because in the winter 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:12.600 the bermuda didn't stick and all of a sudden you 0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:14.160 could play ground game shots. 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:16.520 Well, yeah, they're very favorable rates here. And I've played 0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:20.640 number four four times Number Pinter's Number two four times 0:56:20.680 --> 0:56:24.839 between the first week in January and the last week 0:56:24.920 --> 0:56:28.680 of February. And the longest it took us was four 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:31.239 hours and fifteen minutes. One round was three hours and 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:35.279 fifty minutes. And you know, when the guests come in 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:37.799 peak season, you know the times are going to really 0:56:37.840 --> 0:56:42.600 swell beyond that, and that diminishes, you know, just some 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:45.399 of the fun. But it is it's an absolute joy 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:48.520 to live here right now, and I try to personally 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:51.680 not travel very much so that I can take advantage 0:56:51.719 --> 0:56:52.879 of it this time of year. 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.919 Yeah, well, I know you're got you got a tight 0:56:57.000 --> 0:57:00.439 window here, so we appreciate the time every They can 0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:03.760 read a lot of your writing on Golf Club bat lists. 0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:07.960 You're doing some contributing for Golf Week, and uh be 0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:09.960 sure to check out Golf Club at list if you 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:14.480 haven't yet. It's uh, it's it's really like a you know, 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:16.880 if you're if you're a golf course addict, it's uh, 0:57:17.080 --> 0:57:19.800 it's where you can definitely get your fixed on a 0:57:19.840 --> 0:57:20.800 regular basis. 0:57:21.800 --> 0:57:23.880 Thanks for having me, and I look forward to seeing 0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:27.280 your Elks course up outside of Chicago this summer. 0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:30.480 You got it. Let me know when you come. You know, 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:31.520 bring the dogs. 0:57:32.280 --> 0:57:36.920 You're a good man.