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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today we have an episode with Golf Club Atlas founder

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Speaker 1: randmri Set. But first I'm very excited to announce that

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Speaker 1: today's episode is powered by tdam or trade. Every stroke

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Speaker 1: no surprises, so you're free to swing with confidence. Visit

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Speaker 1: tdamritrade dot com backslash Friday Egg member sbi C. Now,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, here's randmri Set.

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Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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Speaker 1: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a frid Egg

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Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg Egg,

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Speaker 2: Frida Egg bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run

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Speaker 2: off the thelf course.

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Speaker 1: You're a big proponent of dogs on a golf course.

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Speaker 1: Why has America lost its way and not allowed dogs

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Speaker 1: for the most part on golf courses.

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Speaker 2: Well, Americans are good at always coming up with excuses,

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Speaker 2: and they'll talk about the litigious nature of society and

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Speaker 2: if somebody's dog went over and barked and bit somebody

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Speaker 2: that the club would be Libel and da da da

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Speaker 2: da da. But you know, they've done it in the

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Speaker 2: UK for one hundred and fifty years. It's just part

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Speaker 2: of the game, as part of the evolution of the game,

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Speaker 2: and somehow they are able to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: do it and we're not. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: come up with excuses for why it wouldn't work here.

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Speaker 2: I just know that it works over there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it would give It would make

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Speaker 1: the game way more approachable. Also, I think about it.

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Speaker 1: My wife isn't a big golfer, but she loves our dog,

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Speaker 1: and if I go out and walk with the dog,

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Speaker 1: she's exponentially more likely to come walk with me.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. I mean, you read the article I wrote in

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Speaker 2: Golf Week. I mean it just literally, My fondest memories

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Speaker 2: are the five Morissets and our dog Sandy going to

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Speaker 2: the golf course that Trump's playing, Cypress Point or Pine

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Speaker 2: Valley or whatever. And I feel like the next I'm

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Speaker 2: fifty five, that the generations behind me are getting cheated

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Speaker 2: of something. At least in this country. They're not in

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Speaker 2: the UK, but they are here, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: lament that fact.

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Speaker 1: Besides dogs, what are kind of the say, virtues of

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Speaker 1: UK golf versus an American goth you'd most like to

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Speaker 1: see come to America.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, in the UK, golf is a integral

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Speaker 2: but relatively small part of your life. You should be

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Speaker 2: able to go play eighteen holes, have a match with

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Speaker 2: your friend maybe Stableford, in three hours or less. You

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Speaker 2: have a pain at the end of the round in

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Speaker 2: your back home, all within four hours. In America, it's

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Speaker 2: going to you might be looking at a six, seven,

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Speaker 2: eight hour proposition and it's just so much you know,

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Speaker 2: it's this infinitely more time consuming and therefore to a

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Speaker 2: certain degree, it's just that much more selfish. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a selfish pursuit. You're doing something that makes you happy.

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Speaker 2: You're leaving your kids and your wife and your dogs

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Speaker 2: at home, and so you know, I just I like

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Speaker 2: the way that the Brits do it. You know, if

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Speaker 2: it takes several hours and you scoot right back home,

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Speaker 2: you know it's in proportion to its worth in your life,

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Speaker 2: and you can get on and do all kinds of

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Speaker 2: of other things. So you know, one of the and

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Speaker 2: that you know, you can't walk a seven thousand yard

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Speaker 2: course in two hours forty five like you can swim

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Speaker 2: Ley Forest. You know, I can play two rounds at

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Speaker 2: Swinley Forest in the time that it takes to walk

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Speaker 2: a quote unquote championship course in the United States. And

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Speaker 2: so you know, I'm I'm I'm just a huge fan

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Speaker 2: of six thousand, sixty one hundred sixty two hundred yard courses.

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Speaker 2: Part does not need to be reached, certainly seventy two,

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Speaker 2: it can be sixty eight, sixty seven. You get your

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Speaker 2: exercise in, you know, in a timely manner. And I

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Speaker 2: think that that's you know that the Brits approach it

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Speaker 2: like that. I've never seen a Brit stand off to

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Speaker 2: the side of a green and write his score down

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Speaker 2: right after holding out. And you know, through golf club

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Speaker 2: battlests have had a lot of guests here and when

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Speaker 2: I take them to Southern Pins Country Club. If somebody

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Speaker 2: asked me after the first hole, what'd you get, I

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Speaker 2: know that I've made a misjudgment and inviting that guy,

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Speaker 2: and of course I'll always have some kind of witty

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Speaker 2: retort for that. But you know, the card and pencil

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Speaker 2: mentality that Mackenzie hated is alive and well here, but

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Speaker 2: I don't see it in the UK.

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Speaker 1: It's the thing that drives me the most nots is

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Speaker 1: if I'm in the group behind a group that's in

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Speaker 1: carts and you know, they walk off the green and

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Speaker 1: they put their putters in their bag and they get

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Speaker 1: in the cart, and then one will take off and

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Speaker 1: one will be paused there for a second, and you

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Speaker 1: know that they're writing down the scores for the whole.

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Speaker 2: Sad to say. I mean, if you see that unfolding,

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Speaker 2: probably just playing the wrong golf course, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just not You're not going to have kindred spirit

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Speaker 2: golfers of the sort of golf that you and I like,

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Speaker 2: you know around you, and that's just too bad.

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Speaker 1: It's Southern Pines.

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Speaker 3: That's one of the hidden gems of American golf.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's a delight. I mean, I contend

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Speaker 2: that it's on the best property in Moore County. Every

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Speaker 2: hole rises or falls twenty thirty feet. The green to

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Speaker 2: tea walks are very short. I've lived here. I moved

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Speaker 2: here in two thousand and Chris buy and I go

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Speaker 2: out many evenings after work to play anywhere from five

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Speaker 2: to eleven or twelve holes, and you know, we're closing

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Speaker 2: in on twenty years of having done that, and not

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Speaker 2: once if I made the mile drive thinking, gee, I

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Speaker 2: wish I was doing something else. I mean, I'm always

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Speaker 2: keen to get to the golf course. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of that's just because the land is so good. Yes,

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Speaker 2: all the detail work, you know, the ross detail work

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Speaker 2: is missing, the greens have been modified, but nonetheless the

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Speaker 2: appeal of the land just shines through their only homes

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Speaker 2: on two of the holes, and oftentimes we'll skip those

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Speaker 2: two holes. And regardless of how I left the house,

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Speaker 2: I will be coming home in a better mood. If

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Speaker 2: I was in a great mood when I left the house,

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Speaker 2: I'll be in an even better mood when I return.

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Speaker 2: So my wife, Fritz is always keen to shove me

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Speaker 2: out the door and let me go get my hour fixed.

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Speaker 1: It's funny I was. It was the middle of winter

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Speaker 1: we left for this trip, and the one of the

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Speaker 1: first nights, I was really stressed out, had been working

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Speaker 1: all day, and I went out to a course and

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Speaker 1: walked nine and like forty five fifty minutes came back

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Speaker 1: and my wife was like shocked. I was in a

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Speaker 1: completely different state of mind. And it's just amazing how

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Speaker 1: like the spiritual, like the release, Like it's almost like

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Speaker 1: meditation getting to go out and walk and play golf.

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Speaker 2: So you didn't race home and enter your scores into

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Speaker 2: the Gin handicap system and compute how many greens and

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Speaker 2: regulation you had and how many pots.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't keeping my stats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just putting with a pin in. I

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Speaker 1: was you know, I was hitting a second chip if

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hit a second chip. But most importantly,

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Speaker 1: I was just hitting the golf ball and walking.

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Speaker 2: That's what golf's for, and that just that message somehow

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Speaker 2: gets lost in this country. And again, people are free

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Speaker 2: to turn the sport into anything that they want to.

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Speaker 2: But for me, you know, it's pure relaxation. A friend

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Speaker 2: of mine once said, well, you don't ever play for money,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I play for something you know

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Speaker 2: much better than that. I mean, it's just you know,

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Speaker 2: bragging rights, and he just he didn't understand that.

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Speaker 1: That's I went through. I was a competitive golfer for

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Speaker 1: you know, I still play some competitive golf, but I

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Speaker 1: was playing for score and I found myself. I got

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, loss in my way. But then

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Speaker 1: when I started writing and reading more about architecture three

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Speaker 1: years ago, then all of a sudden, the enjoyment of

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Speaker 1: golf like spiked. I cared so much less about what

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Speaker 1: I was shooting, what I was scoring, and I was

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Speaker 1: just enjoying walking and observing what was going on around

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Speaker 1: me on the golf course. And it was just an

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Speaker 1: enlightening moment. And I think that's the thing that people

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Speaker 1: get lost with the It is the American mentality. It's

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Speaker 1: always like striving. And what's ironic about it is at work,

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Speaker 1: you're always striving to be better. You're trying to you know, grow,

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Speaker 1: And that's like, you know, that's your where do the

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Speaker 1: stress comes from? Right? It's like, why are we putting

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Speaker 1: this all the stress on when we're doing a leisure activity.

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Speaker 2: If I want stress, I'll stay at my desk. It's

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Speaker 2: this meant to be a pure form of laxation. And

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Speaker 2: again I don't know why. You know, let's say that

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Speaker 2: you instead of shooting seventy five, you wanted to shoot

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Speaker 2: seventy three. Well, how much more short game time is

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Speaker 2: that going to take for you? To be away from

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Speaker 2: your wife to try and lop those two shots off.

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Speaker 2: And that's where it just becomes, you know, more and

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Speaker 2: more and more of a selfish pursuit. And really the

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Speaker 2: only person who cares what you shoot is you. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's not a person in the world who cares what

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Speaker 2: you shoot other than yourself. And you know, all I

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Speaker 2: can try and do is hope and pray to break eighty.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if I do, you know there's a

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Speaker 2: sense of satisfaction. And if I don't, who cares. But

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Speaker 2: one thing, you won't hear me talk about it because

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Speaker 2: I know nobody cares.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly, nobody cares for yourself about what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: or the guy, maybe the guy that you're playing a

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Speaker 1: match against.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, but then there's just match play and there's

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Speaker 2: no score, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I think that's like a big thing, is

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Speaker 1: the match play component, Like how much quicker things would

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Speaker 1: play and how much differently course design would have been

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Speaker 1: had match play been the predominant form of the game

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Speaker 1: in the US versus stroke play.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we've just profiled Somerset Hills and White

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Speaker 2: Bear Yacht Club on Golf Club that list and both

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Speaker 2: of those in with three hundred and forty three hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty yarders, both of which you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: in a tight match against a good player, you're pushing

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Speaker 2: for three. It's really hard to achieve. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a great match play holes. They don't fit into

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Speaker 2: the American norm of the big, tough, you know, brutish, strong,

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Speaker 2: two shotter in the round. But again in match play,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, to me, it's much more interesting.

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Speaker 2: Could you birdy the whole and win versus get a

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Speaker 2: par and you're opponent, you know, Bogie's has a mishap.

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Speaker 1: What you're evaluating, say a golf course, and you just

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Speaker 1: touched on to non championship golf courses by certainly today's standards,

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Speaker 1: fun golf courses to play versus a brutish championship course.

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Speaker 1: How do you do you do you kind of look

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Speaker 1: at them as two different types of golf.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean it just you know, the only thing

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Speaker 2: that I know leaving a golf course is do I

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Speaker 2: want to come back? That's the only thing that matters

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Speaker 2: to me. And if I do want to, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd never understand somebody who says, you know, I just

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Speaker 2: loved it. I had the best time. You know, do

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Speaker 2: you think you'll ever go back now? I mean, you

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Speaker 2: know there as you know, and that is the as

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Speaker 2: ease of travel has come about in the last two decades.

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Speaker 2: There are now a lot of chasers and people running

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Speaker 2: around ticking boxes. I've played here, I've played here, and

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Speaker 2: you know, if a guy has played a golf course

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Speaker 2: one time, you know, he might have some surface remarks

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Speaker 2: about it that you can pretty much read anywhere. I'm

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Speaker 2: much more interested in the guy who's played at two, three,

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Speaker 2: four five times and really taken the time to start

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Speaker 2: to get to know the course. But it all comes

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Speaker 2: back to, you know, do you want to return. I'll

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Speaker 2: never forget the first time I played Castle Stewart. I

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Speaker 2: just felt like I missed, you know, I wasn't hitting

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Speaker 2: the ball well, I was always out of position. I

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Speaker 2: just felt like I was missing something and I just

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Speaker 2: knew that I was super keen to return. And so

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Speaker 2: a few years ago, Fritz and I went up there

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Speaker 2: in November. There are very few people. We stayed for

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Speaker 2: three days and everything just opened up before me and

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Speaker 2: it's just been one of my favorite courses ever since.

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Speaker 2: But it only happens based on familiarity.

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Speaker 1: That I feel the same way as I was talking

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Speaker 1: to somebody the other day about Old Town Club and

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Speaker 1: they're like, I'm surprised you're not hitting Old Town Club

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Speaker 1: on this trip. And I was like, well, I talked

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Speaker 1: talked to a guy at the club at Dunlop who

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Speaker 1: suggests I come back in the fall. Plus I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to just squeeze in one day, Like, if I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go there, I want to go I want

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Speaker 1: to be there for.

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Speaker 2: At least too properly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny because, like what you were just

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Speaker 1: talking about in Castle Stewart, I played. So I played

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Speaker 1: National Golf Links for the first time this year, and

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Speaker 1: the first round it was like I felt sensory overload,

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Speaker 1: you know. I walked off the golf course and I

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, I've seen so much stuff that

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Speaker 1: exactly that you were. I was struggling to pros and

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Speaker 1: and then I got I got to go back again

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Speaker 1: that week and play it again, and I picked up more.

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Speaker 1: And then and then I went later in the year,

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Speaker 1: and you pick up more that that time. I played

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Speaker 1: with older equipment, so I picked up even more, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm playing with a ballota and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, this T shot on seventeen isn't just bashed

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Speaker 1: up the left. It's like, oh my god, I'm seeing

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Speaker 1: bunkers I hadn't seen before. And that's the thing is

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Speaker 1: with these great golf courses, you learn so much more

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Speaker 1: and more and more every time around them, and it's

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Speaker 1: almost it's unfair to even that's something with a rating system.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you, is like, how do

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Speaker 1: you even cast judgment on a golf course one time around?

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Speaker 1: Especially with the you know, the great ones.

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Speaker 2: You know a lot of people. I remember a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine, Ted Sturgis, from Indianapolis. We went to see

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Speaker 2: Chambers Bay, Tom Doaks Course in Washington State, Tumble Creek,

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Speaker 2: and the David McClay kid Course, Gamble Gamble's Hands and

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Speaker 2: we was about a five day trip and Ted asked

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Speaker 2: me at the end, and then we saw Waverley and

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Speaker 2: then the Cow Club. He goes, so, you know, how

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Speaker 2: would you rank the five courses? And I said, Ted,

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Speaker 2: you know, asked me in five weeks and I'll have

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Speaker 2: had time to kind of mull it over. But you know,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think that's a little bit part of

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Speaker 2: the danger. And I'm not I know, I have a

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Speaker 2: Twitter account and people are tweeting at me, but I

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Speaker 2: can't remember my password to ever respond. But I think

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Speaker 2: that's a real danger. I personally would be very leery

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Speaker 2: of making tweets leaving a golf course because I just

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Speaker 2: you know, there's no rush. The world's not waiting for

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Speaker 2: your opinion on a golf course. You might as well

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Speaker 2: take the time to you know, to kind of roll

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Speaker 2: it around. And I think about it. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: always been ironic to me. We expect our architects to

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Speaker 2: live and die on a site and only do two

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Speaker 2: or three courses max in a year, and then we

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Speaker 2: blow in and out in five hours to render some

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Speaker 2: you know, judgment. Where's the fairness in that? It's just absurd.

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Speaker 1: People always are like, you don't write your review, like

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Speaker 1: you write about golf course right away when it's freshest,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, I don't forget about it. I

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Speaker 1: actually think more about it. And then you know what,

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Speaker 1: the stuff that sticks with you the most too, right

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Speaker 1: when you wait. So you started golf Club Atlasts in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties, How did it come to be? And

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Speaker 1: for anybody that's listening that's not gone to the site.

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Speaker 1: It's essentially, I mean, something that's inspired me since I

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Speaker 1: was a kid and read and you know, there's unbelievable

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Speaker 1: troves of information about golf architecture on it.

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Speaker 2: Well, to be honest, I was bullied into starting it.

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Speaker 2: Some friends of mine had some software and they wanted

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Speaker 2: to prove to corporations that it worked. And they asked

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Speaker 2: me if I had anything that they could load into

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Speaker 2: it that would demonstrate its viability. And I said no,

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Speaker 2: And they came back and said, well, do you ever

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Speaker 2: take pictures of anything? I said, apart from golf courses? No,

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Speaker 2: And they said, well, you know, have you ever written

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Speaker 2: about golf courses? And it turned out my brother and

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Speaker 2: I wrote these little booklets and we would send them

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Speaker 2: to twenty or twenty five people. I said, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: enjoyed doing that. Said well, why don't you do some

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Speaker 2: course profiles. We can do this and this, And then

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Speaker 2: the clincher was they said you could have something called

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Speaker 2: a discussion group. And this is in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, what's that and they said, well you

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Speaker 2: can post. And I'm living in Sydney Australia. You can

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Speaker 2: make a post and people around the world can read

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Speaker 2: it and then respond back. And at the time I

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Speaker 2: was going broke, calling people saying I just played Royal Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: I just played Kingston Heath, I just played New South

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Speaker 2: Wales and I'm getting these enormous phone bills and I said,

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Speaker 2: so wait. Essentially, I thought, well, if I did that,

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Speaker 2: it would pay for these stupid phone calls of me

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Speaker 2: bragging to people. Sure enough, we started to assemble things

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Speaker 2: and we went live in the summer of nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 1: With this all a sudden ability for people to communicate,

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Speaker 1: exchange ideas, you know, share information. How do you think

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Speaker 1: golf architecture has changed with the founding of golf club Batlats.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, a lot of clubs do kind of

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Speaker 2: cloak and dagger stuff. I mean, I know growing up

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Speaker 2: that the power and control on what direction a golf

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Speaker 2: course was going to go resided with a few people.

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Speaker 2: Now there there's just so much more free flow of

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Speaker 2: information and it's available to anybody and all you have

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Speaker 2: to do is your due diligence. So there, in theory,

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Speaker 2: there should be a lot more educated people on golf

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Speaker 2: course architecture, you know, and in addition to the Internet

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Speaker 2: and websites and podcasts like yours, there was a real

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Speaker 2: resurgence starting in the mid nineties, just in printed literature,

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Speaker 2: a lot of fine golf books. I know you're a

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Speaker 2: huge fan of George Bado's book on CB McDonald and

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Speaker 2: just you know, just became an instant cornerstone book that

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Speaker 2: could disseminate, you know, valuable information to every McDonald rainter

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Speaker 2: course out there. And you see places like Sleepy Hollow

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Speaker 2: just latch onto it and and run with it. So

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Speaker 2: so there's so much better information out there, and and

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Speaker 2: it's available to all the members and I you know,

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Speaker 2: and to be honest, you know what golf club at

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Speaker 2: lists has become since two thousand and six seven, with

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Speaker 2: the great implosion of new course construction, has really been

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Speaker 2: chronicling all the great restoration work because there's been a

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Speaker 2: paucity of new course construction. And you know, that's one

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Speaker 2: thing that America has done better than the UK. They

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Speaker 2: Americans have taken greater, more records and more detail has

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Speaker 2: gone into restoration projects here than elsewhere around the golf globe.

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Speaker 1: It's something that American golf has done better than that.

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Speaker 1: That's a rare thing for some. It's actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: I never read thought about it that way.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I can whine a lot and wish

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Speaker 2: the sport was simpler here and wish it was more

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Speaker 2: akin to the UK roots. But that thought occurred to

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Speaker 2: me when I was in Edinburgh a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 2: that that that is. And I asked several of the

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Speaker 2: Scots I was with, and and nobody really would take

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Speaker 2: the other side of that argument that they're that they

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Speaker 2: do that are pure restoration work.

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Speaker 3: How long did you live in Australia seven years nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty three to two thousand. How's the golf culture there

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Speaker 3: different from say the UK and America.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's warmer, and so you'll see

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Speaker 2: the folks with the socks pulled up to their knees

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Speaker 2: and in short pants, and I don't think short pants

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Speaker 2: are allowed even at some of the clubs in the UK.

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Speaker 2: They have the same culture. In terms of pull trolleys.

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Speaker 2: I don't ever recall seeing a caddy in Australia other

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Speaker 2: than at an event. You know it, if you're an

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Speaker 2: able bodied person in the UK or Australia, you're going

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Speaker 2: to take a pool cart or you're going to carry

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Speaker 2: your bag. I mean, you're not going to feel like

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Speaker 2: a ponce and have some guy do it for you

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Speaker 2: when you're perfectly capable. So in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 2: it's just a warm weather version of golf. In the UK.

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Speaker 2: The biggest difference that they do is that they pull

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Speaker 2: their trolleys right across the greens rather than around the sides,

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Speaker 2: and you see so much of the you know, the

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Speaker 2: fringes in this country are oftentimes the worst presented part

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Speaker 2: of the golf course because they get so much traffic.

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Speaker 2: In Australia recognizes that and they say the hardest surface

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Speaker 2: on the golf course is the putting surface and you

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Speaker 2: do the least damage, so just go, you know, drag

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Speaker 2: your card across.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I as an American, you always walk around

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Speaker 1: and put your bag on the fringe. And I was

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Speaker 1: playing golf with Brian Palmer, who was the former superintendent

400
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Speaker 1: of Short Acres, and He's just putting his bag right

401
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Speaker 1: on the green and I'm like, well he's doing it

402
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: and you know, same idea. He's like me resting this

403
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: bag and he has, you know, a no stand carry

404
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: bag like a it was like a Mackenzie bag and

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Speaker 1: him putting it down. I mean that's less impact on

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Speaker 1: the green than somebody walking it.

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Speaker 2: You know, it makes sense. Another thing in Australia. I

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Speaker 2: remember if you hit it to within your first putt

409
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Speaker 2: to within two or three feet, and assuming you're not

410
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: named by his line, you are fully expected to hold out.

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Speaker 2: Nobody wants to see you mark clean the ball, step back,

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Speaker 2: plumb bob, do this? Do that? You know there's a

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Speaker 2: great sense of urgency to you know, beat four hours

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Speaker 2: and just playing a you know, timely manner. Again, nobody

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Speaker 2: has the patience to watch you grind over a two

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Speaker 2: and a half footer.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the patients to allow myself to rind

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Speaker 1: over too.

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Speaker 2: It just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now let's take a few moments to talk about

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00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,440
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Speaker 1: you added this year was a GCA is the one

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Speaker 1: hundred and forty seven Custodians of the Game. I thought

432
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: it was one of the best things I've read in

433
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: a long time. Was the you know, the preamble to

434
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: the to the list of courses. Tell us a little

435
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: bit about how you came up with that idea, why

436
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: you decided to put it out now, and kind of

437
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: the thought process behind what a true custodian of the

438
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: game is.

439
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: Well, I have you know, you and I were talking

440
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: last night. You know, rankings and lists have taken on

441
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: negative connotations lately, but I've always enjoyed puzzling over what resonated,

442
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: what did and why do I like one course more

443
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: than the other? Blah blah blah. And so Tom Doak

444
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: asked me to join the Golf magazine panel in the

445
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: mid nineteen nineties when I was living in Australia, and

446
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: I served on that panel, but I became frustrated by

447
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: several things that were going on, and I didn't think

448
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: that the direction really represented in a speuse the the

449
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: kind of golf that I really enjoyed. So I resigned

450
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: from that panel in March or April, knowing full Well

451
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 2: had already started to write the one hundred and forty

452
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 2: seven Custodians of the Game. And one of the things

453
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 2: that had prompted me was, you know, we write a

454
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: lot of course profiles on golf club batlests on courses

455
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: that are whether they're nine holers or six thousand, sixty

456
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: two sixty three hundred yards, and I've just received some

457
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 2: of the nicest handwritten letters from people saying thank you

458
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: for being a voice of reason in the world, and

459
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: so prompted by that. You know, you know, it's one

460
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: thing if you feel like you're the only person who

461
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: enjoys that golf, and sometimes you would just kind of

462
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: keep your opinion to yourself, but I think there's an

463
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: enormous group of people who would enjoy playing, you know,

464
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: three hour round golf and some of the things that

465
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: we've talked about earlier on your show, and so I

466
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: tried to give a voice to to that, to to

467
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: what you know, would appeal and then some of the

468
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: things that you know that, like in America, you know,

469
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: some of the trappings of the game that don't actually

470
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: lend any real value. And so so I'm to be honest,

471
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: I am very proud. And I got a lot of

472
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: help from three or four people who asked to remain anonymous.

473
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: But I was really really pleased with how it turned out.

474
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: And I was pleased with the outcome because there were

475
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: some people who were very upset that they didn't make it,

476
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: which made me happy. And so you know it, you know,

477
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: and it really reached far and wide. I mean, I'm

478
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: a technological idiot, and I'm always amazed at you know,

479
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: golf club battlests. Having been going for long enough, you know,

480
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: we have a reach into you know, all the corners

481
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: of the world. And and it was and it was

482
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: really pleasing. You know, a past captain of the RNA

483
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: sent a glowing email and to a guy like me

484
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: who cares about the history of the sport, what can

485
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: you say? I mean, it just meant a lot.

486
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So where how does the list evolve?

487
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: Is there you know plans for updating changing as you

488
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: go along.

489
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: The one hundred So it's interesting that you know, the

490
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty seven came about because there are

491
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty seven Open Championships that have been held,

492
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: and there have been a few missteps along the way,

493
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: like Kerneusti where they lost control of the core twenty

494
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: years ago, but by and large it's been a testament

495
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: to the game. So I decided to do one hundred

496
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: and forty seven, and I said, with each Open Championship,

497
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: I'll add another course to the list, and you know,

498
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: in the process, over the course of a year, I

499
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: might play revisit ten or fifteen, you know, or so

500
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: of those courses, and so there'll be some some movement.

501
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: Shawn Arble is a huge I'm just a huge, huge,

502
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: huge fan of Shawn Arble's work in the United Kingdom

503
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: profiling these country English courses and working on a trip

504
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: with him and my friend Joe Andreoli in the first

505
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: of September to go see a lot of common ground

506
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: courses up the west side of England. So I have

507
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: a feeling that two or three of those will squeeze

508
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: their way onto the list, and next it'll become one

509
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: hundred and forty eight Custodians. Even though somebody said that

510
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: the expression the one hundred and forty seven Constodians has

511
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: already wedged its way into the vernacular, and so you

512
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: ought to keep it at that, even though the number

513
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: will grow. And I think maybe that's the way I'll

514
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: do it. And when it reaches one hundred and fifty

515
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: five courses, you'll know that it's been going for eight years,

516
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: and so it'd be a nice process.

517
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it gives people a reason to reread that

518
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: again every year, which is I think important is that

519
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: you're always good to reread stuff and like jog your

520
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: memory of Oh this is what's important.

521
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you know it's fun.

522
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: You know.

523
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: One of the comments came from an architect who just

524
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: played Royal Port Rush and and the several times that

525
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 2: I've been there, it has had really wet, thick, heavy

526
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: rough line on top of itself, and you know, it's

527
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: a course is not heavily bunkered, and obviously it's a

528
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: very windy sight. And then I just feared with the

529
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: Open Championship coming there this year that it'd be even

530
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: more narrow. And so that's an example of a course

531
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: that didn't make it. And this architect was actually saying

532
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: the playing conditions were wonderful and the rough wasn't impenetrable.

533
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: So some of that just has to do with, you know,

534
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: the weather in the time that you're there, and so

535
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: you know, they're you know, probably is a is a

536
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: course need to go revisit.

537
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: But when how do you get into golf courses in

538
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: the start? I mean, you've been traveling a ton, You've

539
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: seen everywhere, you've been heavily. You're one of the co

540
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: authors of the Confidential Guides with Tom Doak and Darius Oliver,

541
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: And how how do you, you know, kind of start

542
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: this golf crazed life.

543
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: No, it's you know, it's one hundred percent due to Dad,

544
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: who took a very relaxed approach, and he would go

545
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: play nine holes every night after work. And he never

546
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: put any pressure on us to go. And and as

547
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: soon as you know, as soon as somebody doesn't want

548
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: you to go, you want to go. So I mean,

549
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: so you know, and and so we would, you know,

550
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: we started off like that. And Dad worked at a

551
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: regional investment firm and in Richmond, Virginia, and there was

552
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: a man named Harry Easterly who worked there too, and

553
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: mister Easterly later became the president of the USGA, and

554
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: was on it, was the executive director of the USGA,

555
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: and was a member at Saint Andrew's and Mirfield and

556
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: every Augusta and Pine Valley, and and mister Easterly took

557
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: an interest in my dad and father taking his three

558
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: sons to play golf, and so in nineteen eighty three,

559
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 2: when I was twenty years old, we took our first

560
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: trip to the UK and we played Dornock, Mierfield, Saint

561
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: Andrew's and Turnberry. And you know, if you didn't like golf,

562
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: then you know you didn't. If that didn't peak your

563
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: interest in golf architecture, then something was wrong. And I

564
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: ended up working for the USJA for a couple of years.

565
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty five eighty six, you know, I started

566
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: to see Fisher's Island, Shinnecak Hills, played Augusta with mister Easterly,

567
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 2: So you know, obviously an incredibly fortunate, spoiled, rotten life,

568
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: but it all resonated. And then you know, comparing those courses,

569
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: though I was seeing some work going on to the

570
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 2: Country Club of Virginia where we remember, that just didn't resonate,

571
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: It didn't mesh what I saw these great courses, was

572
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: what was going on with the local club. So you

573
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: start pondering, wondering, wondering, and you know, one of our

574
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: first trips was to Pinehurst and Harbortown. It was a

575
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: family vacation from Richmond. We stopped in Pinehurst and we

576
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: went down to Harbortown and you know, Harbortown has some

577
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: obvious wow moments and really cool features and really cool greens.

578
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: And I still think that in sand Hills are one

579
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: of the two greatest courses, you know, in the in

580
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: the modern game. That changed the direction of the game.

581
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: But nonetheless, we walked away thinking that Pinehurst was all

582
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: that bit more special and we just and on the

583
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: ride home from Hilton Head to Richmond, which was something

584
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: like eight nine hours, all we did was blabber about

585
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: why we thought that. And so that's when I'm fourteen fifteen.

586
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: You know, poor moms in the front. I'm sure she

587
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: owned some ear plugs that I never saw, but you know,

588
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: just trying to you know, you know, comparing Harbortown with

589
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 2: these you know, calibogie sound and high winds versus Pinehurst, which,

590
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 2: other than a couple of holes, doesn't move up or down,

591
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: you know, more than ten or fifteen feet. It really

592
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: was an interesting mental exercise. So just you know, from that,

593
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: from that first Pinehurst Harbortown trip to the UK trip

594
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: to some exposure to the Northeast courses, including like Yale University,

595
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, it was a recipe for falling in love

596
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: with the study of golf architecture.

597
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, the I think that's the Yale's one that kind

598
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: of I think can show what a like how a

599
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: person views the game. I was playing with a random

600
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: guy yesterday and he was like, oh, that towel, I

601
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: have a Yale towel and he couldn't see the whole towel.

602
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: He's like that that looks like a that's a really

603
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: wild course. Like and he was you know, in a

604
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: in kind of a tone that was like he didn't

605
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: like it, and like the blind shots and everything. You

606
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: could just tell like, oh, this is the type of

607
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: but and I don't want that to sound the wrong way,

608
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: but I said, oh, yeah, that's amazing place, huh. And

609
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, it's something. And but you know that

610
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: that place is like an adventure.

611
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I went up there when I joined the USA

612
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: in eighty five and so I'm in Bernardsville and Yale.

613
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: From Bernardsville, it was on a weekend. I went with

614
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: Wes Seely, who's the director of communication, and we saw

615
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: Herbert Warren wind up on the patio, wrapped up in

616
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: a blanket, and that was awesome. But when we got

617
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 2: back to the USGA and we said, yeah, we drove,

618
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: you know, two and a half hours to Yale. And

619
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: the man's response was, why did you go there? There's

620
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: so many better conditioned courses in Connecticut, and you know,

621
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,959
Speaker 2: and yes, there was goose droppings all over the third

622
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: Green and YadA YadA, YadA, YadA YadA. And I came

623
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: back just blown away by that golf. I mean, it

624
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 2: was just eye opening, and you know, talking about inspiring

625
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: and da da da da dah. And and then you know,

626
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: that guy's comment was just this bucket of cold water.

627
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: And I just knew right away that he and I

628
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: were coming at the sport from two different things, you know,

629
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 2: two different angles. And again not saying you know, there's

630
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: a right or wrong, but you know, I'll stick with

631
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: my perspective.

632
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: That's something that I think about all the time, especially

633
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: with Augusta National, is that Augusta National has this ability

634
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: that it you know, it essentially shapes the way so

635
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: many people look at the way at golf. But the

636
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: thing that people take away from Augusta National seemingly always

637
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: as the conditions and the beautiful flower beds rather than

638
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: like when it opened it had twenty two bunkers and

639
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: it's got why, you know, for the most part, really

640
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: wide fairways and strategic bunkers, limited force carries, extremely playable

641
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: Like why do you think that's what the average American

642
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: golfer takes away?

643
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, boy, Augusta You know, for a lot

644
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: of people, it kicks off their golf season. You know,

645
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 2: if you live in Boston, you might not have hit

646
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: a shot, and so it's just the awakening of a season.

647
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 2: So there's an automatic built in euphoria. But I mean,

648
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, from my perspective, last time I checked, Alistair

649
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: Mackenzie was viewed as a good architect and the changes

650
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: that have been made there in the last twenty years

651
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: have really pivoted away from the from Bobby Jones. From

652
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: Bob Jones and Alistair Mackenzie's original thoughts. And you know,

653
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: when they built that course, you know, the world's greatest courses.

654
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: You know, in the thirties, you know, it was Pine

655
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 2: Valley and it was Oakmont and then like you say,

656
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: this course comes along with huge, wide fairways, just a

657
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: handful of bunkers, but a lot of really cool plane angles.

658
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: And then systematically, you've seen them this century reduce the

659
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: plane angles, and you know, I just find it appalling.

660
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: You know, the tree placement down the eleventh hole. You know,

661
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: maybe if they had narrow if they'd put in trees

662
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: on the left side of the fairway and push it

663
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 2: over to the right. But I mean they just totally

664
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 2: ruined all of the plane angles right now. You want

665
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: to be, you know, ten yards into trees to have

666
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: the best angle into the green, and so, you know,

667
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: it's evolution is very regrettable. I'm personally shocked at how

668
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: the rankings, all the magazines just give it a free pass.

669
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it really is the Holy Grail type place,

670
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: and the poor work that goes on there just gets

671
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: a pass, and I don't know, you know, that's its clout.

672
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: I did an interesting article last year during the Masters.

673
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: I looked at this scoring dispersion of holes from nineteen

674
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: eighty two till now, and the eleventh is like shocking

675
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: is essentially they've traded birdies and double bogies for pars

676
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: and bogies. Yeah, with the planting, like it's become such

677
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: a one dimensional hole and it's taken away the thrills

678
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: and the near thrills that bounce into the water, and

679
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, a double bogie comes out of

680
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: nowhere with a guy who thinks he can pull off

681
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: a shot that's trying to but like now it's just

682
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: hidden in the fairway and if you're not in a

683
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: perfect spot, just bail out.

684
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: Right right now. Obviously, the US Open is now played

685
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: in April, and that's really a shame because the Masters

686
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: used to have its own voice and it morphed into

687
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: the US Open, and you know, we already have a

688
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: US Open, So let's go back to that brand of golf.

689
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: You know, there are some rumblings that they are cognizant

690
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 2: that they want to get back to how the course

691
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 2: used to be. And of course those trees can be

692
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 2: gone in a second. On the eleventh hole, just as

693
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: an example, but the back tee on seven, you know,

694
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty five yard tea to that shallow green.

695
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's just it's just it's bad architecture, it's

696
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: bad golf. You know, you would think they would know better.

697
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: I mean, to their credit, they don't even hardly use

698
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: the t anymore, but they to just they ought to

699
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: get rid of it.

700
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: You know, with the modern game and the modern driver,

701
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: modern ball. I always reminds you of the McDonald quote

702
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: with the Haskell ball where you talked about how you

703
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: know the Haskell ball has you know, created, has made

704
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: great holes indifferent and made many in different holes really great.

705
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: And if the seventh a three hundred and fifty yard

706
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: hole with a shallow green with a wide fair away

707
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: would be one of the most compelling holes on the

708
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: golf course. With the modern game, it's like, where are

709
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: the guys going to drive it up to? Are they

710
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: going are they going to try it drive it really close?

711
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Or are they going to lay back? You know, all

712
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: of a sudden, some guys might be on the right day,

713
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: with the right wind, be able to drive the green,

714
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: and all of sudden that hole would be one of

715
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: the most fun holes to watch on a golf course

716
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,720
Speaker 1: that's got a ton of you know, unbelievable holes to watch.

717
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a fan of courses where you automatically

718
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: pull the driver every single time. And if they would

719
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: play that hole from a three point fifty to four

720
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: hundred yard I think you would see four or five

721
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: different clubs pulled by different players, and in certain conditions,

722
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,919
Speaker 2: some people would probably try and driving into the green

723
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: side bunker. But it'd be infinitely more interesting than having

724
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: everybody hit driver and having you know, eight iron in.

725
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: Obviously, I think we'd be in the same boat where

726
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: we'd love to see Augusta National transform back to what

727
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: it was. What are some of the projects that you've seen, say,

728
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: over the course of GCA that have been the most

729
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: inspirational in the sense of like transforming a golf course.

730
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 2: One would be Sleepy Hollow where, you know, back when

731
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: I worked at the USCA, we had a dinner there

732
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: at once and nobody wanted to play the golf course,

733
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: so it was just a having dinner in the Vanderbilt

734
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: former state. And now nobody would go to Sleepy Hollow

735
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: and not beg to play the golf course. I mean,

736
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: that's transformational. Los Angeles Country Club. You know, George Thomas

737
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 2: is an absolute legend and hero his work had been

738
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: so mistreated and and at Los Angeles you now see

739
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: that he's one of the you know, handful of greatest

740
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: architects ever. You know, one restoration project that I think

741
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 2: really flew under the radar because it's a it's a

742
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: pretty quiet club as the country Club of Brooklyn. Again,

743
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: Gil Hans did it and just did uh, you know,

744
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: top tier work. I was amazed to read some negative

745
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: comments about the course. But that's such a cool, old

746
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: fashioned course with you know, the smallest greens aside of

747
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: Pebble Beach that it represents a very appealing throwback. And

748
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: now with the work that's occurred there that you know,

749
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: they fully embraced that again. You know, I want to

750
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 2: go to a golf course that's different. I don't want

751
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: to go to a golf course that I've seen twenty

752
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: five different versions of. In the country club, you know,

753
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 2: in it's old fashioned ways, you know, it has its

754
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: own voice.

755
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: That's I think that's an important part is it's not

756
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: about doing what the course down the street does. It's

757
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: about doing what your course is, you know, and finding

758
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: that unique feel, vibe, architecture, the funky stuff, getting that

759
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: back and making yours, not, you know, like the course

760
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: down the street, and then make them look at it

761
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: and say, I want to be like that golf course.

762
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: You know, you couldn't be more spot on. But in

763
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: the sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties, it was the club

764
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 2: down the road is planting trees, and so we should

765
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 2: plant trees. And so the courses just became more and

766
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: more the same. And you know what's the point in that.

767
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: Well, I mean part of that, though, is that it

768
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: tied with the trend of society that was, like the

769
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: mass suburbanization, everybody moving to the suburbs, everybody's you know,

770
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: these housing developments that had the houses that looked exactly

771
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: the same right down the road. And I think that's

772
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: one of the things. Golf architecture follows trends in society

773
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: so much and a sense of I think we're starting

774
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: to see this shift back to hand craftsmanship, and it

775
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: falls in line with what's going on in the greater society,

776
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: where people are more involved, more interested in experiences, and

777
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: more interested in, you know, buying lettuce that's locally farmed

778
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: rather than the mass produced fifty cent lettuce. They wanted

779
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: to have that they want to know where it's from,

780
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 1: and I think that's where we're starting to see that.

781
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: I'd be interested. What do you think? You know, obviously

782
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: restoration has been a huge part of golf course architect

783
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: for the last you know, fifteen twenty years. What what

784
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: do you see as the next wave?

785
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I speaking restorations. You know, you and

786
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: I first met at the California Golf Club of San Francisco,

787
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: which you know, talking about a transformation. If you've I

788
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: had honestly never heard of that golf course. It came

789
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: up in a few threads of golf Club Atlas, but

790
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: you know the pictures that I saw it just it

791
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: didn't resonate, you know. Now, in my opinion, it's that

792
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's the finest course you know in the

793
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 2: greater San Francisco area, and you know, talking about going

794
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 2: from zero to ten in a rapid rate, I mean,

795
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 2: that's a transformation that you just can't beat. So, you know,

796
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, you know, to answer your question, I'm

797
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: not sure we need more golf courses. I'm not sure

798
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: that golf is growing. Maybe it is with women. So

799
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: I'm much more of a fan of taking care of

800
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: what we have. I do not play poor, bad golf courses.

801
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 2: I would rather not play than go play a poor course.

802
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: And a lot of people their exposure to golf is

803
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: by playing in different courses because their bodies just want

804
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: to play whatever's the cheapest golf course, and there's no

805
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: hook to get you involved. So you know, if you

806
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: said all we were going to do until twenty fifty

807
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 2: is get our house in order and take care of

808
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: all the courses that we have in the world already,

809
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: I would be perfectly happy with that. Barring that, obviously,

810
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: what I'd like to see is, you know, some more

811
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 2: nine hole courses, more six thousand yard courses come up,

812
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: more courses that you know it could be, and they

813
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: have to be close to where people live. And the

814
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: problem in America is the pricing of land can be

815
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: prohibitive to then build something like that. But even as

816
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: you and I discussed last night, even if it was

817
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: a fivel golf course, I mean something, but just make

818
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 2: sure that it's that it's of you know, high quality.

819
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 2: It makes people think, it makes people want to hit

820
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: a bump and run shot. You have options. You know,

821
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: you can't have enough golf like that.

822
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, It's the interesting aspect of how courses

823
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: have gotten so long to fit for technology is just

824
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: like when you're building a new course, do you build

825
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: it to make it easy to walk for people playing

826
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: the back teas or the middle ties. Either way, some

827
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: class of golfer because of the seven thousand yards is

828
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: going to have a bad walking experience where you're either

829
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: walking back to teas or you have to walk forward

830
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: all the time to teas, and and you're gonna have,

831
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, fifty seventy five yard walks between greens and teas.

832
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually not even a fan of tea's. I

833
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: mean I say, prepare, give some prepared surfaces and let

834
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 2: just people pick where they want to play from. And

835
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 2: again you can't have you know, then you can't have

836
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: a handicap if you're doing that and this and this

837
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: and this. And you'll hear those arguments in this country,

838
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: but you won't hear them in the UK.

839
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

840
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: I was playing with some guys and uh, you know,

841
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: it's a course I played a bunch of times and

842
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: it was really windy, and it was this it's a

843
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: great there's this great risk reward par five like it's

844
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: an infinitely better hole if you have a chance to

845
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: go for it into and it's playing into a twenty

846
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: five mile an hour wind. So I say to the guys, like,

847
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: let's go move up. We moved up to like the

848
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: green teas, which were, you know, one hundred and twenty

849
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: yards shorter than the back teas that we were playing,

850
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: just because I was like, you got to have a

851
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: chance to go for this. It's a great golf hole,

852
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: and if you don't have it, like it's a it's

853
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: a much worse golf hole.

854
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 3: So we move up. Everybody's having to hit like.

855
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: A long iron over you know, over water, try and

856
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: you know you either bail out or you go for it.

857
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: And you know everybody had you could tell had a

858
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: great time. It's like, why can't you just play a

859
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: tee based off of how you want to play a hole.

860
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: You'll get no argument from me. I mean again, you

861
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 2: start putting all these rules and regulations you know around

862
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: a sport you have to take a cart, you have

863
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: to take a caddy. Well really do you? I mean

864
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: why just you know, like at the cow club, you

865
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 2: can carry your bag, you can take a pool cart,

866
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: you can take a caddy, or you can you can

867
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: do anything you want to. You know, they just assumed

868
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: that the members have common enough sense to do the

869
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: right thing.

870
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: I can't believe that pole carts are not allowed at

871
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: a lot of clubs around the country.

872
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: Well again, it gets back to the false perception that

873
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 2: somehow they're tied to municipal courses only, and you go

874
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: to Mierfield in Scotland and all you'll see your pool cards.

875
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 2: I mean, the members never going to hire a caddy.

876
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: So it's just it's just false. It's false perceptions that

877
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 2: have been perpetuated.

878
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: And what bothers you more mandatory carts or no pull

879
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: carts allowed.

880
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 2: Mandatory carts is a no go. So I'm just not

881
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 2: gonna be there. So that doesn't.

882
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: You know.

883
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, again, I've had so many great

884
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 2: experiences with caddies. It's not that conceptually that I have

885
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: a problem with caddies. You know, it's that you have

886
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: to take one. But if you do show, if you

887
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: do go to a place and they say, you know

888
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 2: there are no pool cards, you know that they're trapped

889
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 2: back in time and that they're not you know, they're

890
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: just you know, it's just it's just bad decision. Making,

891
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 2: so you're not likely to be with kindred spirits at

892
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: a place like that.

893
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: All right, last question, you're resident of the U Pinehurst

894
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: Greater Pinehurst area. You got ten rounds?

895
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 3: How you splitting them?

896
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 2: Well, I will tell you. We're doing this interview on

897
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: March the first, and this is the absolute best time

898
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 2: of year to be here. Like Pinehurst Number two plays

899
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 2: perfectly with its dormant Bermuda Fairways, dormy Club dormant Bermuda Fairways.

900
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: So this time of year, I would lean heavily on

901
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: those two courses, you know, Mid Pines and Pine Needles.

902
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 2: For reasons that I don't understand. They both overseed and

903
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: those courses become much lower and less fun. Midpines sparkles

904
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: in August with their new Bermuda Fairways, it can still

905
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: be very bouncy, very firm. So I'm not trying to

906
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 2: hedge on your answer. It depends on what time of year.

907
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 2: You know, the big We've kind of got the Big

908
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 2: four and a half here, we've got Piner's number two,

909
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: we've got dormy Mid Pines, Pine Needles, and then you know,

910
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of the Cradle, and then you know,

911
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 2: up the road, you've got Tobacco Road, and then just

912
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: for a quiet afternoon hit again. I've just never been

913
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 2: disappointed by Southern pines. But those are the courses that

914
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: you have to you have to see.

915
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: It's a funny when I plan my trip and everybody's like, well,

916
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: why are you coming now? And I'm like, why am

917
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: I coming now? When when else would you go? And

918
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: then you listened to what Ross said about he was

919
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: enamored with the way that played in the winter, and

920
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 1: it was closed in the summer because in the winter

921
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: the bermuda didn't stick and all of a sudden you

922
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: could play ground game shots.

923
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they're very favorable rates here. And I've played

924
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: number four four times Number Pinter's Number two four times

925
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: between the first week in January and the last week

926
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 2: of February. And the longest it took us was four

927
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: hours and fifteen minutes. One round was three hours and

928
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 2: fifty minutes. And you know, when the guests come in

929
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 2: peak season, you know the times are going to really

930
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: swell beyond that, and that diminishes, you know, just some

931
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 2: of the fun. But it is it's an absolute joy

932
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: to live here right now, and I try to personally

933
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: not travel very much so that I can take advantage

934
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 2: of it this time of year.

935
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know you're got you got a tight

936
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,439
Speaker 1: window here, so we appreciate the time every They can

937
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 1: read a lot of your writing on Golf Club bat lists.

938
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: You're doing some contributing for Golf Week, and uh be

939
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: sure to check out Golf Club at list if you

940
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: haven't yet. It's uh, it's it's really like a you know,

941
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: if you're if you're a golf course addict, it's uh,

942
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: it's where you can definitely get your fixed on a

943
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: regular basis.

944
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and I look forward to seeing

945
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 2: your Elks course up outside of Chicago this summer.

946
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 3: You got it. Let me know when you come. You know,

947
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 3: bring the dogs.

948
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: You're a good man.