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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, back again on the trip

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Speaker 2: of a lifetime and it's the Three Amigos, the Three Musketeers,

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Speaker 2: the Trace Caballeros. Stuff.

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Speaker 1: That's right, talking about e n t Oi oi oi.

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Speaker 2: Hey, that was pretty good, Chuck. I was not expecting that.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes sometimes there's like a little pause in between you

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Speaker 2: talking and me responding, and it's because I'm just astounded.

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Speaker 2: And that was a good example of that. You did great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and t Baby, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So we're talking today about testosterone estrogen. What people

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Speaker 2: commonly think of are the two hormones, the female hormone

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Speaker 2: the male hormone, and that those are what divides us.

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Speaker 2: The sexes are binary, they're bisexual, there's male, there's female.

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Speaker 2: Gender is a totally different topic, as we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: a little bit. But if you have a lot of estrogen,

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Speaker 2: you're female, a lot of testosterone, you're a male, and

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Speaker 2: it turns out that we can trace that that's all

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Speaker 2: like generally incorrect. It's such a such a broad stroke

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Speaker 2: explanation of estrogen and testosterone that it actually has tripped

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Speaker 2: us up all this time. And just from researching this, Chuck,

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Speaker 2: I learned like, wow, this is if we had just

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Speaker 2: never considered estrogen female in testosterone male, I think our

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Speaker 2: general understanding of those two hormones would be so much deeper.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's one of those things where we can

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Speaker 3: trace back to a time where that sort of whole

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Speaker 3: notion came from. And of course, you know, it's early science.

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Speaker 3: They were trying to figure stuff out. But starting about

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Speaker 3: the mid nineteenth century is when scientists started kind of

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Speaker 3: going wild with animals and organs and doing things like, hey, rat,

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Speaker 3: let me remove your testicles and let me put some

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Speaker 3: ovaries in you and see what happens.

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Speaker 1: And there was a lot of this going on.

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Speaker 3: There was a British physiologist named Ernest Starling who actually

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Speaker 3: coined the word hormone from the Greek word to excite

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Speaker 3: in nineteen oh five. And this is sort of right

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Speaker 3: around that time in the early nineteen hundreds, when there

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Speaker 3: were other scientists and physiologists doing all kinds of wacky

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Speaker 3: experiments to see what happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say hormones are simply chemical messengers

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Speaker 2: that basically relay messages and trigger responses or keep responses

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Speaker 2: from happening in the body, and that estrogen and testosterone

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Speaker 2: are two kinds of hormones, specifically steroid hormones, meaning they're

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Speaker 2: made from cholesterol, which for some reason I find really.

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Speaker 3: Gross, so well, you might find this gross too. Then

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Speaker 3: there's an Austrian named Eugene Steinach who was doing these

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Speaker 3: kinds of experiments that I was just talking about, and

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Speaker 3: he was saying, like, came here, frog, let me poke

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Speaker 3: around your testicles and get some liquid out of there.

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Speaker 3: Let me, like I said earlier, let me take this rat,

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Speaker 3: let me castrate it, let me transplant some ovaries onto

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Speaker 3: this rat, and then observe what happens. And Steinach was

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Speaker 3: one of those early scientists who kind of led to

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Speaker 3: this sort of binary idea that you know, if you

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Speaker 3: do this, you're going to feminize a rat, or you're

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Speaker 3: going to masculinize a rat if you do that.

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Speaker 1: Sort of the vice versa operation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but very very quickly there were people even back

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Speaker 3: then scientists that were like, oh, wait a minute, this

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Speaker 3: is it's not quite as binary as you're making it

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Speaker 3: out to be. And there's plenty of examples and reasons why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could almost lay the entire problem at the

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Speaker 2: feet of Eugene Steinach. That he was the one who

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Speaker 2: basically said that humans are bisexual as how we put it,

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Speaker 2: binary sexes male female, and it depends on whether you

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Speaker 2: have testosterone or estrogen. And like you said, he got pushedback.

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Speaker 2: There was one guy in particular, an embryologist named Carl Moore,

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Speaker 2: who was like, hey, Steinick, stop and think about what

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Speaker 2: you're saying here, Like, even without your you know, mad

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Speaker 2: scientist experiments, female rats do all sorts of like quote

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Speaker 2: male behaviors and vice versa. And even with your flip

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Speaker 2: flop you know, overreason gonad rats, they're still doing behaviors

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Speaker 2: that are are not easily assigned to one sex or

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Speaker 2: the other. So I'm not one hundred percent sure that

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Speaker 2: it's quite as cut and dry as you you have

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Speaker 2: have explained it. And Eugene Steinach had Carl Moore murdered silence.

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Speaker 1: Forever not true at least I don't think it is.

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Speaker 2: I hope, okay, I just.

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Speaker 3: Tho you might have just leaned in with a pillow

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Speaker 3: and gave him the forever Hugin.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So flashing forward a little bit too, about the turn

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Speaker 3: of the twentieth century is when research got a little

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Speaker 3: more serious about it, and they found that extracts from

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Speaker 3: your ovaries could have beneficial treatments for things like hot

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Speaker 3: flashes during menopause, and it could stimulate what's called estros,

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Speaker 3: which is where the word estrogen comes from. But estris

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Speaker 3: is like when an animal is in heat. If you've

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Speaker 3: ever seen a cat or something or a dog in heat,

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Speaker 3: it's pretty clear that something different is going on, right,

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Speaker 3: And that word estrogen in nineteen oh six comes from

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Speaker 3: that word estrus, which is from the Greek word oystros,

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Speaker 3: which means mad desire.

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Speaker 2: It also sounds like a brand of.

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Speaker 1: Yogurt oysters, Yeah, oystros. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So once these guys like this is the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the twentieth century, very late nineteenth but mostly the first

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Speaker 2: couple decades of the twentieth century, scientists are starting to

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Speaker 2: isolate hormones, and in particular sex hormones, and they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: what happens if you give them to humans? Now forget

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Speaker 2: the frogs and rats and all that stuff. And what

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Speaker 2: they figured out very quickly is like you said, they

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Speaker 2: like menopause have been around for a while, and they're like, well,

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Speaker 2: women have menopause and estrogen seems to be the woman's

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Speaker 2: sex hormone. Let's give them estrogen and see what happens.

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Speaker 2: And it actually had a pretty beneficial effect. It's been

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Speaker 2: long known that estrogen given as like a drug can

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Speaker 2: treat symptoms of menopause, like hot flashes and stuff. And

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Speaker 2: the first estrogen, I guess prescription drug. It's called premarin,

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Speaker 2: which says like a perfectly legitimate, big pharma sound to it, right, Premarin.

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Speaker 2: That's a great name for a drug. But it's even

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Speaker 2: better if you know what it stands for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is well should we say when it

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Speaker 3: stands say what it is and then what it stands for.

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Speaker 2: I think you can do both simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: Actually, well, it's not a synthetic estrogen.

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Speaker 3: It was actually a natural isolated estrogen derived from the

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Speaker 3: urine of a pregnant horse. So premarin stood for pre

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Speaker 3: pregnant mayor mayor and the end from urine, so pre

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Speaker 3: maren pregnant horse urine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was I believe this is nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 3: It was made of like ten different estrogens and was

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Speaker 3: available commercially in the US just a few years later,

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Speaker 3: and by nineteen ninety two was the highest selling drug

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Speaker 3: in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to have a good idea of

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Speaker 2: just how crazy the pharmaceutical market has become in the US,

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Speaker 2: Premarin was the I think you said, the most prescribed

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Speaker 2: drug in the US.

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Speaker 3: Well, the best selling I guess sho would match. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the hit single exactly.

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Speaker 2: So this hit single, Premarin in nineteen ninety seven had

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Speaker 2: revenues of one billion dollars. Pretty not shabby. It'd be

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Speaker 2: about two billion dollars today. Humera, the second best selling

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Speaker 2: drug in twenty twenty two, had revenues of twenty one

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Speaker 2: billion dollars. In that nuts like, that's that's just night

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Speaker 2: and day compared to how far we've I guess how

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Speaker 2: far we've come. It's one way to put it. But

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Speaker 2: the upsot is premar in was it was a lifesaver.

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Speaker 2: Men were like, hey, I'd like you to be sexually available.

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Speaker 2: Why don't you take this horse, you're in estrogen, And

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Speaker 2: when we were like, it solves my hot flash problems

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Speaker 2: sold so it actually, it really was very popular for

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Speaker 2: a while, and it wasn't until I think two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two that it just dropped off precipitously.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And we should mention too that this was

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Speaker 3: you know, it was obviously for things like hot flashes,

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Speaker 3: but they were also marketing it as a way to

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Speaker 3: maintain femininity as you age, none other than William Masters

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Speaker 3: of Masters in Johnson's Fame Sex Crime. They said that

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Speaker 3: women should use the drug to avoid falling into the

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Speaker 3: third sex or the neutral gender, which is very off base,

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Speaker 3: to say the least. But yeah, in two thousand and two,

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Speaker 3: things change because there was the Women's Tell Initiative released

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Speaker 3: a study about attitudes that that really like changed everything

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Speaker 3: when it comes to how women or people in general

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Speaker 3: think of hormone therapy when they said that it can

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Speaker 3: cause breast cancer, heart disease, blood clots, and stroke if

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Speaker 3: you take what was called by this time prim pro

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Speaker 3: which was Primaran and pro Vera as a you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of a cocktail. And they they minute so much

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Speaker 3: they said, we're even stopping this study. But it turns

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Speaker 3: out there was just a lot of bad reporting about that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. There's a New York Times magazine article about menopause

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Speaker 2: by a writer named Susan Dominus, who basically reported that

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Speaker 2: the media just jumped all over it. There's like, there's

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Speaker 2: a twenty six percent increased risk in developing breast cancer

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Speaker 2: if you take Prempro or generally have hormone replacement therapy,

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Speaker 2: and that's whopping. That's a big, a big number, a

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Speaker 2: big percentage. But in absolute numbers, it's actually not that big.

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Speaker 2: So the average woman had a two point three to

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Speaker 2: three percent chance of developing breast cancer. If you took Prempro,

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Speaker 2: you had a two point nine to nine percent chance,

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Speaker 2: So like that was your twenty six percent increase, And

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Speaker 2: in real terms, it sorted out to, based on the

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Speaker 2: population at the time, an additional eight women developing breast

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Speaker 2: cancer out of every ten thousand who were taking replacement hormones.

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Speaker 2: Nothing to sneeze at those eight women. I'm sure would

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Speaker 2: much rather prefer not to have breast cancer. But the

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Speaker 2: point was the risks of it were grossly overstated, and

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Speaker 2: that it got but it got such a bad rap

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Speaker 2: because of the reporting that for a couple of decades,

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Speaker 2: just trust and hormone replacement therapy dropped off and a

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Speaker 2: lot of women suffered unnecessarily as a result.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think they didn't even find that the

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Speaker 3: transdermal variety was in fact much safer than the other

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Speaker 3: way of taking it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, Like if you take it orally, which

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Speaker 2: is what it was always before, pretty much it has

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Speaker 2: to go through your liver to be processed, and while

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Speaker 2: it's there it can do all sorts of nasty stuff

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Speaker 2: side effects that you don't really want, like causing thrombosis

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Speaker 2: and blood clots, it can lead to heart disease, whereas

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Speaker 2: if you do it transdermally, it just enters the bloodstream

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Speaker 2: and it does its thing with minimal side effects. So

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Speaker 2: we've reached the point today where your average kind of

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Speaker 2: coologists is probably going to say the benefits if you're

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Speaker 2: healthy outweigh the risk of taking it, especially if you

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Speaker 2: are under age sixty, and especially if you're under age

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Speaker 2: seventy and you start apparently there's a if you have

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Speaker 2: a gap between menopause and then start hormone replacement therapy

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Speaker 2: of a decade or two, then it can become pretty risky.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I don't have my lab code

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Speaker 2: on right now, I would advise you not to take

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Speaker 2: gecological health advice from me. Instead, ask your doctor. But

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Speaker 2: this is what I've seen from research.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that, I mean you say that virtually every

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Speaker 3: time you meet someone in person. I've heard you say

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Speaker 3: those same words.

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Speaker 2: I'm big on that for sure.

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Speaker 3: Say Hi, Josh, nice to meet you. I dude, stuff

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Speaker 3: you should know. Please don't take onecological advice for me. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: no matter what comes out of my mouth at this

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Speaker 3: dinner part.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just a smart thing to say.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 3: So this is all going on on the ester's in side,

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Speaker 3: on the testosterone side, and we're gonna, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of bop back and forth between.

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Speaker 1: The two of these.

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Speaker 3: That was isolated, I believe in nineteen thirty five. In fact,

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Speaker 3: that's when the name testosterone got its name, which is

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Speaker 3: sort of the big daddy mail hormone.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk about all the versions of these in

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Speaker 1: a second.

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Speaker 3: And on its own, testosterone, you know, wasn't doing very much.

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Speaker 3: But when they added estrone, which is a quote unquote

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Speaker 3: female hormone, it became very powerful. And in nineteen thirty nine,

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Speaker 3: there were a couple of guys dude, name I guess

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Speaker 3: one guy, sorry, Leopold Ruska. Oh no, no, there were

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Speaker 3: two guys and Adolph Butenant of Germany. They won the

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Speaker 3: Nobel Prize for chemistry by working on largely testosterone, but

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Speaker 3: you know sex hormones as a whole. And none other

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Speaker 3: than mister Adolf Hitler was one of the early adopters

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Speaker 3: when it came to a testosterone treatment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he had low tit.

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Speaker 2: I meant to send you this, and I'm sorry I didn't,

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Speaker 2: but I turned up something that there was in British

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Speaker 2: World War two military files. There were like a bunch

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Speaker 2: of ideas of how to like basically take neutralized Hitler,

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Speaker 2: and one of them was to start slipping estrogen into

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Speaker 2: his food and that over time it would basically turn

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Speaker 2: him from a maniac, murderous killer psycho to maybe a

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Speaker 2: little calmer, maybe a little more feminized. And the whole

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Speaker 2: idea was that if you put poison in his food,

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Speaker 2: he had tasters, and the tasters would die from the

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Speaker 2: poison and he would know that he was being poisoned.

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Speaker 2: That would not happen with estrogen. It would take place

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Speaker 2: over such a long time they wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 2: taste it that that apparently it was never even attempted,

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Speaker 2: or certainly not carried out, but that was someone's idea

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Speaker 2: to take care of Hitler. It would have been hilarious, dude,

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Speaker 2: to see that transition, like had they done that, and

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Speaker 2: then just to be able to look back all these

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Speaker 2: years later and watch the progression.

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Speaker 3: There's a Benny Hill sketch in there somewhere, for sure,

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Speaker 3: I think so.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: Initially, medically speaking, the first use of testosterone was to

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Speaker 3: try and cure homosexuality in males, which was a needless

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Speaker 3: to say, it spectacularly back fired because all it did was,

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Speaker 3: you know, it didn't alter any orientation. It just created

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Speaker 3: I guess super tops and power bottoms and ramped up

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Speaker 3: to sex drive. And then of course trans people. This

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Speaker 3: was you know, very early in the days of hormone

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Speaker 3: therapy for trans people. It was actually going on, and

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Speaker 3: in fact, we did a whole episode in April twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen called Michael Dillon Trans Pioneer about the Englishman who

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Speaker 3: was I mean, I think probably the first person at

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Speaker 3: least from the female to male transition to use that

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Speaker 3: hormone in nineteen forty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it definitely was from what we could tell.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, if you go back and listen

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Speaker 3: to that episode, if you're like, oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: We heard from listeners.

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Speaker 3: We goofed up the pronouns on that one because we thought,

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Speaker 3: and this is five years ago, we know better now,

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Speaker 3: but we thought it would be a good idea to

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Speaker 3: sort of let the pronouns follow the journey of Michael

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Speaker 3: Dillon's life. And you know, we know better now, So

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Speaker 3: just take that with a grain of salt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, kid, co. And while we're on that, we should

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Speaker 2: probably say we're using male and female and man and

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Speaker 2: woman just generally a shorthand, a biological shorthand. With the

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Speaker 2: advent of trans people, there there's a much more specific

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Speaker 2: way of talking about that. Specifically, we would we should

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Speaker 2: be saying typically developing assigned male at birth or assigned

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Speaker 2: female at birth, people who haven't altered their hormones. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's tough to say over and over again, rather than

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Speaker 2: man or woman. So please forgive us for that. We're

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Speaker 2: not we're not being disrespectful in that way, and we're

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Speaker 2: certainly not excluding trans people from this, because this very

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Speaker 2: much has a lot to do with trans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and well you know that'll come in part too, obviously.

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Speaker 2: For sure. I say we take a break and come

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Speaker 2: back and we'll start talking about estrogen.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: All right, So we're back with estrogen. Welcome to the studio, estrogen.

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Speaker 3: How have you been doing so? That is, usually you

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Speaker 3: think of estrogen as one of the two female sex

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Speaker 3: hormones with progesterone, and it is actually a family of

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Speaker 3: three hormones, the first one being estrone, and that is

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Speaker 3: the that's not the money estrogen, that's the weakest one menopause.

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Speaker 3: You know, it keeps getting produced through menopause. It's made

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Speaker 3: in the adrenal glands, it's made in the ovaries, it's

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Speaker 3: made in fatty tissue, and it can actually serve as

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Speaker 3: a sort of a warehouse keeping place for estrogen.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, for sure. So here's where we get to

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Speaker 2: the idea that it's just misguided. Think estrogen is a

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Speaker 2: woman's sex hormone and that's it. There's so much more

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Speaker 2: to it. The whole reason you would continue producing estrogen

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Speaker 2: as a woman in some form or fashion after menopause.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're not having sex, if you can't

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Speaker 2: reproduce any longer, why would you produce estrogen? You would

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Speaker 2: produce a weaker version because it's still doing other things

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Speaker 2: like it's really important for bone growth and muscle development

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Speaker 2: and to keep yourself active. There's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 2: that estrogen does just beyond forming the reproductive system or

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Speaker 2: for sexing females.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we also did mention and this is probably

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Speaker 3: if someone wants more quote unquote proof. Estrogen is found

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Speaker 3: in plants like rice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we could just end the podcast right here.

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Speaker 1: Testosterone is not found in plants, only in the animal world.

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Speaker 3: But we'll get to that, all right. The next one

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Speaker 3: we come to that was E one. By the way,

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Speaker 3: E two is estra diol, which is this is the estrogen.

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Speaker 3: This is the potent one. This is made in the

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Speaker 3: ovaries of women and made in the testes of men.

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Speaker 3: Once again, men and women both have each in different levels.

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Speaker 3: And this is the one that really like kicks in

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Speaker 3: during puberty and then takes a break during menopause. Not

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Speaker 3: a break but more like a retirement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes to Florida.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 2: Maybe yeah Flora for once. I'm just gonna stick with

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Speaker 2: my original one. Good Astriol is another one. This one

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Speaker 2: is mostly produced during pregnancy to help the uterus grow,

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Speaker 2: and it also helps with breastfeedings. It leads to most

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Speaker 2: of the body changes during pregnancy. You can thank estriol

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Speaker 2: for that. And there are other types of estrogen, but

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Speaker 2: typically it's those three. Those are the big ones. And

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Speaker 2: it's obviously everyone knows estrogen is the reason that you

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Speaker 2: have breasts and that your hips fill out, and that

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Speaker 2: it has a lot to do with a woman's monthly cycle, right,

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Speaker 2: And that's absolutely true. That has a lot to do

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Speaker 2: with everything, like that's what estrogen does. But it is

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Speaker 2: again it's important for metabolizing muscles, for preventing your muscles

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Speaker 2: from injury. It also contributes to endurance, which if you

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Speaker 2: read about ultra marathons, women tend to dominate those I

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Speaker 2: was reading about, Like short runs, men can outrun women

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Speaker 2: very easily. Marathons typically men win. But then as you

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Speaker 2: get further and further and further, and actually there's a

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Speaker 2: moment I think it's like like one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: miles or some mind boggling amount of distance, women start

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Speaker 2: to slowly overtake men. And then the longer you go,

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Speaker 2: the further ahead, women finish before men in tests of

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Speaker 2: endurance like that, and they think it's because they have

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Speaker 2: higher stores of estrogen, which is helping their muscles work better.

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Speaker 3: So you talked about good for like you know, muscle

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Speaker 3: growth and muscle formation. Sure, Also estrogen can help facilitate

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Speaker 3: brain activity, skin elasticity, which you know, is that why

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Speaker 3: like wrinkles happen as you age? Is that because of

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Speaker 3: drop and among other things in estrogen?

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Speaker 2: I would think so. I think it's also just they've

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Speaker 2: been around the block so many times, like skin, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So if you're a doctor, doctor Clark.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, okay, why am I?

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Speaker 3: Why am I going wrinkley around the eyes here? What's

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Speaker 3: going on with physiologically with my body? You know, it's

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Speaker 3: been around the block?

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Speaker 1: What more? What more can I say? And also, don't

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Speaker 1: take any gynecological advice from me.

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Speaker 2: Right, I'd be like, I thought you're a dermantologist. Oh

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Speaker 2: I'm neither.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy.

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Speaker 3: So estrogen is something that can affect mood, but you

379
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Speaker 3: know it's it fluctuates. I think pre menopausal women have

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Speaker 3: a range of about thirty to forty pikeograms per mili liter,

381
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Speaker 3: But it varies from person to person. And then like

382
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Speaker 3: we said, it rises and falls during the menstrual cycle.

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Speaker 3: It's not like a set number. I think Postman Apostle

384
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Speaker 3: that drops all the way down from literally zero to thirty.

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Speaker 1: And then for.

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Speaker 3: Men, for guys like you and me, yeah, we have

387
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Speaker 3: a range of about ten to fifty. I'm probably more

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Speaker 3: like fifty five or sixty would be my guess.

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Speaker 2: So I'm right there with you, buddy. So again, the

390
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Speaker 2: reason why men would have it at all is because

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Speaker 2: it's not just the woman's sex a female sex hormone.

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Speaker 2: It does other stuff. Just I can't say this enough

393
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Speaker 2: because it was such a sure you can like it,

394
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Speaker 2: It was such an epiphany for me. I'm just like, Oh,

395
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Speaker 2: I had no idea that it was this, that things

396
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 2: overlap this much. Yeah, I mean I didn't think it

397
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: was just like cut and dry, but I knew there

398
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Speaker 2: was some crossover, but I didn't realize just how much

399
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: Steinbach screwed us up with that whole binary thing.

400
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

401
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 3: I was trying to make a joke about a pop

402
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 3: act that crossed over, but I couldn't come up with it.

403
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: Just, uh, someone send in a good joke there.

404
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: How about Bay Bay Beyonce in the country.

405
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Speaker 1: I heard about that, did you hear it? Is it good? Yeah?

406
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: It's fine. I'm not huge in the country.

407
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: So it's real country then, huh.

408
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: No, it's like dance floor line dancing hunt. Yeah, sure

409
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: it is real country. Yes, but it's not like it's

410
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,479
Speaker 2: not like Hank or anything like that. But it's like

411
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: a it's more like Garth. It's like a Garth Brooks song.

412
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Speaker 1: Oh geez, I need to hear it.

413
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Speaker 3: I thought it was more just like Hi and Beyonce

414
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Speaker 3: and I put on a cowboy hat.

415
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Speaker 2: So now, no, she's from Texas. You know she knows

416
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: what she's talking about.

417
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Can we talk about the Big.

418
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Speaker 2: Don't please don't quote me on that. I'm not in

419
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: the bay Hive.

420
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Speaker 1: Okay, I went to that concert. Was great.

421
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll bet. Can we talk about the Big t

422
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: Oh we're here? Huh yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean we're going to go back and forth. But

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Speaker 3: T needs to he needs this tea is ready to speak.

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Speaker 2: I think before we do, I want to say one

426
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: other thing about estrogen. It apparently encourages physical movement, and

427
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: you're like, so like with low estrogen, your will to

428
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: get up and move or walk across the room or

429
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: go take a walk is depleted because your estrogen is lower.

430
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Speaker 2: It's as simple as that Isn't that nuts? Yeah, that's cool.

431
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: So yes, now we're on to tea.

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Speaker 1: That's right, the male hormone in.

433
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: Part, Yes, and that's no joke. Like, for sure, estrogen

434
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: helps form females, Testosterone helps form males, and apparently in

435
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: the uterus they're both exposed to copious amounts of testosterone.

436
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: It's just what differentiates females from males or keeps females

437
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 2: from developing into males. Because I didn't know this either, Chuck.

438
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: We all start out as females. Did you know that.

439
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: I think we talked about that in our puberty episode.

440
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: Okay, so just bear with me for a second. We

441
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: all start out as females, and then we're all we're

442
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: all kind of inundated with testosterone. But females typically have

443
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: something called aromatase, which is an enzyme that converts testosterone

444
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: into estrogen much more prevalent in the feed in the

445
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: placenta with the fetus, and so it's basically like batting

446
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: away all the testosterone. So the baby comes out assigned

447
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: female at birth. Pretty interesting, huh. Like without the injection

448
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: of testosterone, we would all be females or without the

449
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: presence of aromatase, we would all be males.

450
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: That's right.

451
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: And then once things are you know, I guess what

452
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 3: that's around the seventh week or.

453
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: So, yeah, something like that.

454
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: That's when the testicles start to produce testosterone. That's when the.

455
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 3: Factory opens up. And I don't think we mentioned, but

456
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: testosterone is a member of a family of androgen hormones. Uh,

457
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: boy to should we even try and say these or

458
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: just say the shorthand? I want to say them, knock

459
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: yourself out?

460
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: Uh andros stenny dione then I practiced and st andres

461
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: steno dione.

462
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right.

463
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: D hydro epi andros sterone also known as dh A sure,

464
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: d hydro epi androsterone sulfate d h A, yes, and

465
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: then dihydro testosterone d h T.

466
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice work.

467
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 3: Thanks, you get to move on in our medical competition.

468
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: You could be a doctor, but but I'm not. So

469
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: don't that's forgotten logical.

470
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 1: Advice, never never or any medical advice.

471
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: Uh So, Like I said, the test testosterone factory is

472
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 3: open at about seven weeks. And the reason we went

473
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: back and kind of named the others is because some

474
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: of that testosterone at that age is converted into the dhea. Right, yeah,

475
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna say it. And that is the sort

476
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 3: of the money hormone for making the penis form and

477
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: grow in the prostate. And about seven months in is

478
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: when the trigger is kicked off by testosterone for testicular descent.

479
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: Even though that can happen after you're born.

480
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: It makes it hilarious. Beew sound.

481
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: Oh man, where's your slide whistle?

482
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: I don't have it on me. Maybe gerial'll work it in.

483
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you actually isolated some slide whistle cuts,

484
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: so don't.

485
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: Tell everybody I know. Here's one of the facts of

486
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: the podcast. To me. I had no idea about this.

487
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: But so male babies are flooded with testosterone. They don't

488
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: have a bunch of aromatase to convert all of it

489
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: into estrogen, so they become male and all the stuff

490
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: that you just mentioned happens. But they do have some aromatase,

491
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 2: and some of that testosterone is converted into estra diol,

492
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: and that estra dial actually is what forms the male brain.

493
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: So estrogen forms the male brain starts out as testosterone

494
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: converted into estratiol. It causes the changes in the brain

495
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: that create.

496
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: The male brain whatever, snowflake.

497
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: I just think that's awesome. Like it also just goes

498
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 2: to show you, like just how so, I mean, just

499
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: imagine what an intricate chemical dance this is and how Yeah,

500
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: you just adjust this a little bit and adjust that

501
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: a little bit and all sorts of different outcomes can happen.

502
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: It's just fascinating, Oh for sure.

503
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: I mean, when you're a little kid, there's not a

504
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: lot of difference between your testosterone levels. If you're a

505
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: little girl a little boy, I think usually under ten

506
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 3: nanograms per desolators at puberty where things just go hog wild, right,

507
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: and little boy's testosterone just shoots through the roof. It

508
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: rises in girls as well, but nothing like it does

509
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: in boys. Once you become a big man, a full

510
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 3: grown man like us, you're gonna have tea levels between

511
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: three hundred and a thousand, if you know, if you

512
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: have normal quote unquote normal tea. Women have much lower

513
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: levels between fifteen and seventy. And this is you know,

514
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: in little boys, what's gonna trigger your voice to change,

515
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: your bone and muscle mass to grow. You're you know,

516
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you're gonna have body hair and

517
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 3: facial hair and stuff like that. And also, and I

518
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: think we've talked about this at some point, but it

519
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 3: is related to male pattern baldness. But I don't think

520
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: they're still at the level where they can say like, hey,

521
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: if you have high tee, then you're more likely to

522
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: be bald.

523
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: Yes. And that's really really important to point out, dude,

524
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: is that we are not at a place in microbiology

525
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: or human chemistry or we're like, this is what this

526
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: hormone does, and this is what that hormone and dones.

527
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why is because the same

528
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: hormone can have wildly different effects depending on at what

529
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: stage in a reaction it comes in, or in what

530
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: tissues or what regions of the brain or the body

531
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: it's interacting with other things. So when you add all

532
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: these different not just other kinds of hormones, but also

533
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 2: like neurotransmitters or neuromodulators and all this stuff, it just

534
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: becomes exponentially more complicated and complex. So we're still kind

535
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: of at the place where it's like, yeah, testosterones for

536
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: boys and estrogens for girls, and we're making tons of headway,

537
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: but generally speaking, we're still at a very basic level

538
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: and understanding what hormones are capable of. And then also

539
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: on the flip side, looking at behavior and saying like, oh, well,

540
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: clearly aggression is related to high levels of testosterone.

541
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we'll get to that coming up in a

542
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: sect for short with there been lots of studies, Well,

543
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: we need to talk about testosterone dropping over the years,

544
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: because men don't experience like a drop off in testosterone

545
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: like women do with menopause and estrogen. But it does

546
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: decline in both men and women testosterone by about a

547
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: percentage a year starting in your thirties, sort of early

548
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: to mid thirties generally, although that can vary as well,

549
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: and it can vary just from time to time too.

550
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: A man's level of testosterone can go up or down

551
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: fairly dramatically for different reasons over short periods of time.

552
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just like with estrogen, testosterone is also responsible

553
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: for bone growth and development in remodeling, apparently, the testosterone

554
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: is useful for the hard outer layers of the bone

555
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: and estrogen is for the spongy interior layers. It's cool

556
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: and also something else that stood out to me is

557
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: men's estrogen levels are roughly similar to women's testosterone levels

558
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: under normal circumstances. Yeah, I guess so, right, Yeah, I

559
00:31:59,240 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: think it's pretty interest.

560
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm looking at the numbers.

561
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: Did they add up?

562
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: Well, you were talking about aggression. I mean, should we

563
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: take a break and talk about that or should we wait?

564
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: I say we take a break. Now, we've already the

565
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: monkey's already flown the.

566
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: Coup, right, all right, the monkey's out of the bag,

567
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: the cat is out of the cage.

568
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

569
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, So we're back. We found the cat, put

570
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: them in the cradle with the silver spoon, so everything's

571
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 2: back to normal.

572
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: Sad a song?

573
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: Oh it is? It is pretty said, especially if you

574
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: like your dad.

575
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: Especially if you had problems with your dad.

576
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I guess so, I guess so.

577
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

578
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there any circumstance where that wouldn't be a sad?

579
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

580
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: Maybe the perfect amount of care and love from your

581
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 3: father and with no accompanying.

582
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: Abuse, gotcha, perfect?

583
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: I don't know.

584
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's very prevalent. Yeah. So, yeah, we're talking

585
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: about testosterone, we're talking about sex, we're talking about aggression.

586
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: All of those things seem to be very much intertwined

587
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: in the public consciousness about testosterone. Right, the more testosterone

588
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: you have, the more stillone esque you are, the more

589
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: likely you are to wear like a floor length mink

590
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 2: coat with no shirt underneath, which I have to say,

591
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: if I could wear that, I definitely would, if I

592
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: could rock that look. It's a good look.

593
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 3: And Josh, I think if you remember, I wore that

594
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: exact coat in the movie, in my film Nighthawks, is

595
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: that what happens from I think you are mink coat

596
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: in Nighthawks?

597
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: Okay, although he was a cop in Nighthawks. You can

598
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: afford a mink coat.

599
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: No way, not on a cop salary, not an honest cop,

600
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: an underrated movie. So is it?

601
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if it holds up great, but

602
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: I thought it had a pretty good ending. We won't spoil.

603
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 2: No, no, it's and it's definitely spoilable for sure.

604
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: But and that was my st alone. By the way,

605
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 3: people are just like, what are you even talking about?

606
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: Why did Chuck slur there?

607
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 2: For a little while, I thought it came through loud

608
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: and clear. Okay, But the idea is that, like the

609
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: whole reason the Rambo films were made, particularly two and three,

610
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: is because Sylvester still own experienced a massive spike in testosterone.

611
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: It had to get it out in some productive way, right.

612
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought it was because Rambo was no expendable.

613
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 2: I haven't seen those movies.

614
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: Huh No, no, no, it was a joke from Rainbow two.

615
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: Oh well, he was also in the Expendables.

616
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I wonder if that had anything to

617
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: do with that line.

618
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: Probably not, It could be at I'm sure there's some

619
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: people who are like, shut up and talk about aggression

620
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: in testosterone, you're making me aggressive.

621
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: Well, what if you knew to a male dog. That's

622
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: a good sort of first example.

623
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: That's a great entree, Chuck. Most people would say that

624
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: if you neuter, if you remove the testicles of a

625
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 2: male dog, it's going to become much more submissive, much chiller,

626
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: probably a lot more fun at parties, will come pick

627
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: you up if your car breaks down, that kind of thing.

628
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: And there is some data that shows that that's the case,

629
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: that some dogs are calmer once they're neutered, But the

630
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: other studies have shown like the exact opposite is true,

631
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: that dogs can become actually more aggressive when they're neutered,

632
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: which is a head scratcher of a puzzler if you

633
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: ask me.

634
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I just went through this with Gibson,

635
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: and he's not more aggressive because that's an aggressive is

636
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: a weird word, because aggressive isn't the same thing as like,

637
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: you know, heaper now just like an excitable puppy, Like

638
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 3: that's not aggression necessarily. Yeah, but it definitely did not

639
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: chill him out at all.

640
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that it's supposed to, but yeah,

641
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: I think some people think it does. But the idea

642
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: that it would make a dog more aggressive, so it

643
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: had like no impact on him as far as like

644
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: his energy level is what you're saying. Yeah, so imagine

645
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: if he was generally like that before and then you

646
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 2: neuted him and then he started like biting people. Yeah,

647
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: that's that's what happens with some dogs. And they're like, well,

648
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 2: that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. One of the explanations

649
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: is is that we think testosterone is tied up with

650
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: confidence more than aggression, and that a dog that has

651
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: this chemical confidence removed through neutering can actually become more

652
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: more nervous, and nervous dogs frequently will bite or bark

653
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: more than they did when they had confidence via testosterone.

654
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that ties in perfectly to the fact that

655
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: and this to me is one of the facts of

656
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: the show. But they have done studies and male athletes,

657
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: like you know, superior male athletes, actors, it or not,

658
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: blue collar workers and confidence artists, con men, they all

659
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: have above average levels of testosterone.

660
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there you have it, so too, all right,

661
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 2: case closed, So too though, And this is the state

662
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: of study right now with studying the stuff where we're

663
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: relating human behavior to hormones like testosterone or estrogen, Like,

664
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: there's results like that out there, but that we arrive

665
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: at the question, well, wait a minute, do people who

666
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 2: have higher levels of testosterone naturally gravitate to those professions

667
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: or does being in a profession like acting or being

668
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: a con man raise your testosterone life? Right, They're like, well,

669
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: hold on, okay, I got this. We're going to go

670
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: study prisoners, specifically violent criminal offenders and see what their

671
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: testosterone levels are.

672
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: Like.

673
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: Sure enough, they found that their testosterone levels were above average,

674
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: But that still raises the question do higher levels of

675
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: testosterone make you more prone to any social violent behavior?

676
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: Or does being in prison raise your levels of testosterone.

677
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: We still don't know at this point.

678
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

679
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty interesting because I think a lot of people,

680
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: like the generals, just the old way of thinking was like,

681
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: of course.

682
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: It does, right, And you know what they're finding, they

683
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: think is that it's more that testosterone is released when

684
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: you need it.

685
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it meets the occasion.

686
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: Right, It's not the thing that's driving the behavior. It's like, oh,

687
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: this guy says it's go time, we better release some

688
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: testosterone to keep it going.

689
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this next thing is super interesting to me. You know,

690
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: moment to moment throughout your day, you're gonna your testosterone

691
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: is going to rise and fall some. And they have

692
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: found that if you lose, like a running race or

693
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: a one on or a basketball game, or an arm

694
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: wrestling match, or even a chess match, you will lose testosterone.

695
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: So it's not even necessarily it can be something as

696
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 3: cerebral as a chess match, but losing reduces your testosterone.

697
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: Winning increases and boosts your testosterone. And they even found

698
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 3: this is crazy to me, that they sampled male voters

699
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: for like an election and just your candidate losing causes

700
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: a drop in testosterone.

701
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that nuts? That was among McCain voters because

702
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 2: it was the two thousand and eight election. Yeah, it's crazy.

703
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's unbelievable, like winning and losing even

704
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 3: if you're not participating other than voting yes.

705
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: So they also found that they think that social expectations

706
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 2: can kind of modulate behavior, right, and this kind of

707
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 2: ties into that idea that testosterone kind of helps foster

708
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 2: a response rather than triggering a response, right. So essentially

709
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: what they found is that with testosterone levels, we can

710
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: correlate it as far as if you are having if

711
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: you're faced with a fight or flight situation and you

712
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 2: choose to fight, you probably are experiencing an up tick

713
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 2: in testosterone levels. Again that you didn't have testosterone and

714
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: now you're choosing to fight. They think the exact opposite

715
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: is true, that you've chosen to fight and your testosterone

716
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: levels go up. On the other hand, they found that

717
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: if you choose to flee or say not be aggressive,

718
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: your cortisol levels, your stress hormone levels increase. So our

719
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: response seems to be based on what we think society

720
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: will either reward or punish, and then based on our

721
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: decision from that our hormones kick in to help kind

722
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: of carry out whichever response we decide to go with.

723
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: So one other thing that I found was that that

724
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: surprised me is that testosterone isn't just made in like

725
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: the t testies or the ovaries depending on your sex

726
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: assigned a birth, but that it's actually made locally in

727
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: the brain, and that testosterone can also be transformed into

728
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: different types of estrogen in the brain too, And they

729
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 2: think that locally produced is what it's called testosterone in

730
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: like our neural pathways, has much more of an effect

731
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: on behavior, mood, that kind of stuff than the stuff

732
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: that's made in the testes or the ovaries, and that

733
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: actually accounts for some of the baffling results we've gotten

734
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: where you know, if you take a blood sample of

735
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: somebody and find that they were just being aggressive, but

736
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 2: their blood doesn't show any kind of spike and testosterone, well,

737
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 2: that would account for that because it's not the stuff

738
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 2: that's floating around in their blood that's making them do that.

739
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: It's the locally produced testosterone in their brain that's you know,

740
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 2: connecting with their amygdala or something like that it's making

741
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: that's helping them their aggressiveness, I guess alone.

742
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: And now I know everyone wants to get to the

743
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 3: part about sex and what testosterone does there. And testosterone does,

744
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: you know, sort of directly ramp up the sex drive

745
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: in men and women. And they have done trials where

746
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: they have shown that it increases the libido. But just

747
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 3: because your tea falls doesn't necessarily mean it's going to

748
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 3: decrease your libido. It can, but it doesn't mean it

749
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: has to.

750
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, Again, that's just there's baffling results we get

751
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: sometimes from just studies of what we presume has to

752
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: do with testosterone or estrogen, and it just doesn't quite job.

753
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 3: All right, So I guess now we can sort of

754
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: finish up with some talk of intersex people and where

755
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: we stand now with hormone therapy, right.

756
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, because one group there's a lot of different people

757
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 2: besides postmenopausal or perimenopausal women who take hormone replacement therapy,

758
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: intersex people, people who are born with ambiguous genditalia. Because

759
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: like we'd mentioned that whole amazingly intricate dance of chemicals

760
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: and hormones during development. Fetal development can just take one

761
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: step to the left or one step to the right,

762
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, there's just a different outcome

763
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: that happens to some people. And some people take hormone

764
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: replacement therapy to either become more like the gender they

765
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 2: presume that they would have been assigned at birth, or

766
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: the gender that they feel like they were assigned at

767
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: birth but their genitalia doesn't quite match. There's a lot

768
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: of different outcomes that are basically considered conditions that you

769
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: can kind of help alleviate with hormone replacement.

770
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Another one.

771
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure we talked about this in our

772
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 3: female puberty episode. Was starting the nineteen forties, and maybe

773
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 3: even before that, estrogen therapy and hormone treatment could help.

774
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: Basically what they would say, like, you know, you don't

775
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: want your daughter to grow too tall, so they would

776
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: use a hormone block. You don't see that as much today.

777
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: It was called precocious puberty, which is still.

778
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 1: A thing that can happen.

779
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: I think if you enter puberty, I think it's like

780
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 3: a year or two two or what's considered too early,

781
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 3: or you know, just with outside of the normal range.

782
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 3: You can also use these hormone blocking drugs. I mean

783
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: they still use in today, but that it's not like

784
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: say you don't grow too tall. It's basically just to

785
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: save off puberty and to halt precocious puberty in its tracks. Also,

786
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 3: if you are a trans kid, you can use a

787
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 3: hormone blocker to just sort of hit the pause button

788
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 3: to give you a little time to decide what kind

789
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 3: of puberty to go through.

790
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, because once you go through puberty, particularly if you

791
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: think it was the wrong puberty for the gender you

792
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,879
Speaker 2: identify with, there are going to be changes that are

793
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: essentially irreversible aside from surgery. Like if you go through

794
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 2: female puberty but you're a trans male, you're still going

795
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: to have breasts that half to be removed. Or if

796
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: you're a trans woman and you went through male puberty,

797
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: your vocal cords are gonna think you're gonna have a

798
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: deeper voice, and maybe an atom's apple surgery will have

799
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: to remove that. That's how powerful the hormones that get

800
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: released and the amounts that they get released in during puberty.

801
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: So if you're not quite sure which gender you belong

802
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: to yet, using hormone blockers can actually help kind of,

803
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: like you said, buy you some time until you figure

804
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 2: out which way you want to go.

805
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as far as testosterone therapy goes, if you

806
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 3: have a deficiency and testosterone because of hypogonatism or maybe

807
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: from HIV or something like that, it's obviously gonna help

808
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: with that. Also problems like and here's where it gets

809
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: a little tricky, depression, low muscle mass, low energy. There's

810
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 3: some evidence that can prove sexual function, but not as

811
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: much that it can increase your low energy if you're

812
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: just sort of losing testosterone at that normal rate of

813
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: like one what was it, I can't remember.

814
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: The one percent a year? I think is it?

815
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, one percent a year. But if you have an

816
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 3: actual deficiency, they've shown that it can improve sexual function

817
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 3: and just don't have as much proof with energy level.

818
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: So does that mean that the ad that has Frank

819
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: Thomas and Doug Flutie in it talking about how they're

820
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: like crushing their workouts that actually doesn't work. Well.

821
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 3: I don't know if they're just saying if they're claiming

822
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 3: they're just having natural decline in age, or if they

823
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: had a deficiency to begin with, because that's that seems

824
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 3: to be the differentiating factor.

825
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, Yeah, who knows.

826
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, let's call up Doug Flutie in.

827
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: Let's get him on the horn exactly. Uh, you got

828
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: anything else?

829
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: Uh no, I got nothing else.

830
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: I got nothing else either. This is a very enlightening

831
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: podcast episode. I should say a lot of stuff I

832
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: didn't know about, and now I know more, and you

833
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: still shouldn't take my advice medically speaking. Never since Chuck

834
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: said never after a nice hearty chuckle, it means it's

835
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: time for listener may.

836
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, I was turned on your show about six

837
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 3: months ago and have been rapidly consuming multiple episodes each

838
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 3: day going back and forth to work. I heard the

839
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: school bus yellow episode this morning and thought you might

840
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: not have found this little nugget you pointed out mister

841
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: Sear Sire was credited with the standardization. I believe you

842
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: also noted some other districts had already turned to bright

843
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: paint jobs on school buses. But on March twenty third,

844
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 3: nineteen thirty one, the Pleasant Hill tragedy near town Or,

845
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 3: Colorado was because I had a blizzard that came in

846
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 3: that morning. School shut down sent the kids home, and

847
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 3: one of the school buses ran off the road, stuck

848
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: in the snow for thirty plus hours. Resulting in the

849
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 3: death of five of the twenty students and the bus driver.

850
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

851
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 3: The aftermath theorized that a brightly painted school bus would

852
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 3: have been much easier to spot in the white out

853
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: and might not have sat waiting so long to be found.

854
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 3: So buses in Colorado adopted the yellow standard by nineteen

855
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: thirty nine, and the proposal for Mister Sire became a

856
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 3: national standard. Unfortunately, it was a reactive, not proactive solution,

857
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 3: brought on by a spring blizzard on the plains of

858
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 3: eastern Colorado. That is from John Colts, and I was

859
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 3: just curious John didn't say I guess that.

860
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: School bus might have been white.

861
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: I would think so.

862
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, not a great color.

863
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: No, No, for sure. Thanks a lot, John, That was

864
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: a really amazing email. I never heard of that one.

865
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: That's terrible. If you want to bring us down terribly

866
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: like John did, you can send us an email, wrap

867
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it

868
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: off to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you

869
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

870
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,