WEBVTT - What Shell Knew: A Surprising Report from The Netherlands Finds that Shell Was Directly Funding Climate Denial in the 1990s

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<v Speaker 1>In the last few months, a group of Dutch investigative

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<v Speaker 1>reporters have been doing a great job publishing various stories

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<v Speaker 1>on what Shelle knew and when. They have a project

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<v Speaker 1>called the Shell Papers. It is on the Platform for

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<v Speaker 1>Authentic Journalism in the Netherlands, which is a collaborative formed

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<v Speaker 1>by four investigative journalists for the purposes of digging into

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<v Speaker 1>things exactly like this. I'm joined today by two of

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<v Speaker 1>those journalists. I'm going to let them introduce themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>So my name is Alexander Berner. I'm an investigative journalist

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<v Speaker 2>for a platform Authentic Juristic from the Netherlands.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Yelis Musk. I'm also an investigative reporter

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<v Speaker 3>at the Platform for Authentic journal And.

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<v Speaker 1>What is the Platform for Authentic Journalism?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the platform. We are a collective of four investrative reporters.

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<v Speaker 3>We started out about five years ago because we wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to contribute to certain undervalued topics within the Dutch media world.

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<v Speaker 3>So most of all we focused in the beginning on

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<v Speaker 3>complex issues like trade agreements and their impacts on the

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<v Speaker 3>new environments and society in general, and then we moved

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<v Speaker 3>on bid by bids towards lobbying, because lobbying was also

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<v Speaker 3>like a big part of the whole Ttip and free

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<v Speaker 3>trade negotiations, right, and from lobbying we sort of moved

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<v Speaker 3>on naturally almost to climate change, seeing that the most

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<v Speaker 3>lobby topic. Probably at this moment.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to talk about some of their latest findings,

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<v Speaker 1>including in particular shells direct funding of one well known

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<v Speaker 1>climate denier in the Netherlands sounds to me like this

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<v Speaker 1>guy was sort of the Threads singer of Holland that

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<v Speaker 1>story and more. After a message from this episode's sponsor,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Amy Westervelt and this is drilled.

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<v Speaker 3>A year ago we started the Shell papers where we

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to do a Foyer request regarding about fifteen years

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<v Speaker 3>of documents regarding communication between the Dutch government and Royal

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<v Speaker 3>Dutch Shell in order to see like structurally what kind

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<v Speaker 3>of cooperation exists between Shell and the Dutch States. So

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<v Speaker 3>we wanted to see, like what ways does Shell influence

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<v Speaker 3>Dutch policy.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you kind of come upon the person who's

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<v Speaker 1>at the center of your latest investing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we investigated fitz Butcher, a man who we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>know actually before our investigation, but fitz Bitcher is generally

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<v Speaker 2>known or was known in the nineties as one of

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<v Speaker 2>the founders of the climate skeptic movement in An, Netherlands,

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<v Speaker 2>and before that he was known as one of the

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<v Speaker 2>founders of the Club of Rome, which was finalday in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight and weren't against the excessive economic growth

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<v Speaker 2>with its famous report Limits to Growth. So he was

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<v Speaker 2>in general a well known scientist, professor in chemistry, and

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<v Speaker 2>he actually got involved in the climate debate in the

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<v Speaker 2>nineties through his own articles and lectures. He appeared on

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<v Speaker 2>television and the newspapers and radio interviews, and yeah, he

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<v Speaker 2>was one of the first known climate skeptics, which in

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<v Speaker 2>the first decade when when the topic became a heart

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<v Speaker 2>issue in global politics.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's an interesting trajectory though, from the Club of

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<v Speaker 1>Rome to climate skeptic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, always fascinating. Fascinated us because it seemed a bit

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<v Speaker 2>contradictory to be first part of the group which warned

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<v Speaker 2>against too much excessive economic growth and then to be

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<v Speaker 2>to seem to be on the other side of the debate, right,

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, this is an interesting history as well. It

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<v Speaker 2>seemed like what we know from people who actually know him,

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<v Speaker 2>from the Club of Rome who have also written about

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<v Speaker 2>his role in this club, is that he within this

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<v Speaker 2>club where or this informal network, he was also part

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<v Speaker 2>of the more conservative wing, let's say, within this, within

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<v Speaker 2>this network, so it was not necessarily contradictory that within

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<v Speaker 2>this copy already also took a position where he actually

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<v Speaker 2>kind of downplaced the panic that followed the publication of

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<v Speaker 2>the of the first report. So, especially within the Netherlands,

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<v Speaker 2>this Club of Rome had a huge impact. It became

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<v Speaker 2>like a media hype in the words of fitz Butcher,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was actually a bit annoyed by this. We

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<v Speaker 2>see this also in his personal archive that he was

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't like this, this panic, and this was like

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<v Speaker 2>the first time that he became an outspoken actually a

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<v Speaker 2>critic of the environmental movement, which although he was part

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<v Speaker 2>of the group, he also took a stance against the

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<v Speaker 2>environment movement which used this report to call for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>government interference in business. He was pro.

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<v Speaker 1>Market, so he wanted businesses to choose to limit growth themselves.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, some self for strength, right. Also in his Club

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<v Speaker 3>of Rome activities, his whole point was that there's no

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<v Speaker 3>such thing as well, there is such a thing as

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<v Speaker 3>depletion of resources. But the problem is that we cannot

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<v Speaker 3>access a lot of those, so we need to develop

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<v Speaker 3>more technology in order to reach oil and gas or

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<v Speaker 3>coal in places that are thus far unreachable.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, that's really interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, So did you get a sense of how he

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<v Speaker 4>sort of got into the climate skeptic movement in the nineties.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, actually he was involved or interested in the

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<v Speaker 2>topic already since the end of the seventies, nineteen seventy nine,

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<v Speaker 2>as I understand it, there was already an international conference

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<v Speaker 2>about it and some attention to it. So he was

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<v Speaker 2>interested in this debate from the beginning. And this was

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<v Speaker 2>still at a time when he combined his work as

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<v Speaker 2>an academic with advisory work for Royal Buds SHELL, So

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<v Speaker 2>he has always combined this during his career. He was

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time a professor and also part time

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<v Speaker 2>advisor of Board of Royal dotch Sheell regarding research their

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<v Speaker 2>research policy. So he worked for SHELL from nineteen fifty

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<v Speaker 2>three to nineteen eighty three, so for more or less,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was familiar with the heads the main CEOs,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he considered them to be his personal friends.

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<v Speaker 2>At the end of the seventies, is there was a

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<v Speaker 2>discussion about the greenhouse effect beginning, so he got involved

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<v Speaker 2>in immediately and also supported by Shell already in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy nine. The first sign of support from Royal Dotchell

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<v Speaker 2>to him regarding the greenhouse effect is actually from nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventy nine when Shell financed the small research of fitz

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<v Speaker 2>Butcher into the greenhouse effect to see what was right

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<v Speaker 2>and what was wrong about this theory, as he would

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<v Speaker 2>call it. And this was actually already the first time

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<v Speaker 2>when he started to develop his his skeptic arguments and

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<v Speaker 2>am vision, and we see from personal notes in his

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<v Speaker 2>personal archive that he, you know, he had this skeptic

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<v Speaker 2>theory based on the gaia theory of James Lovelock, believing

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<v Speaker 2>in the self regulating powers of planet Earth and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>believing in the in the positive feedback effects. But he

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<v Speaker 2>was never a climate science scientist. He was a he

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<v Speaker 2>was a professor in chemistry. So but he started to

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<v Speaker 2>read in the eighties as well the literature from American

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<v Speaker 2>climate skeptics Richard Linson, and he already knew, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people like Fred Singer and other American skeptics, which you

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<v Speaker 2>have talked about in your podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>As well.

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<v Speaker 2>He knew them from international policycles like the OECD, for

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<v Speaker 2>which he was also a delegate, So he was familiar

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<v Speaker 2>with the American skeptics and he followed them, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really became a vocal critic of the climate scientist

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<v Speaker 2>until nineteen eighty nine or less. What we found to

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<v Speaker 2>be his CO two project, as he called it, like

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<v Speaker 2>a big skeptic project, which which he ran for almost

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<v Speaker 2>a decade that started in nineteen eighty nine.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, and did the funding for that come from Shell

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<v Speaker 1>as well?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, that's that's our main discovery. So and the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest surprise to us because you know, we started this

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<v Speaker 2>research just to investigate, to write a kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a background article about what is already known about Shell's

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<v Speaker 2>role in the climate debate, and we didn't we didn't

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<v Speaker 2>expect to find this kind of direct support to climate

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<v Speaker 2>skeptics because in general Shell is known as as more

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<v Speaker 2>like a unlike Exon, you know, like a company which

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<v Speaker 2>has a bit of attention for the environment and which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't that aggressive in funding you know, climate denihilism. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why we didn't expect to find this kind of direct support.

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<v Speaker 2>But his personal archive is Butcher. He died in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and eight, so he left his archive in the

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<v Speaker 2>city of Harlem, in a small archive, one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty six boxes, boards of meetings and letters and personal notes.

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<v Speaker 2>Fascinating to read. But yeah, the story that we discovered

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<v Speaker 2>in his archive is that he was supported from the

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<v Speaker 2>very beginning Byshell to start this CEO two project, to

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<v Speaker 2>get involved publicly in the climate debate, to be critical

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<v Speaker 2>about climate science and the IPCC. And he received direct

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<v Speaker 2>financial support for this as well from nineteen ninety to

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight around one million gillains, So that's like

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<v Speaker 2>eight hundred thousands euros today.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, And can you talk a little bit more about

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<v Speaker 1>what this carbon project of his was did he? I

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<v Speaker 1>think I read it in your story that he was

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<v Speaker 1>one of these guys who've pushed the idea that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>more CO two just means more plants on earth and

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<v Speaker 1>that's a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>That was his favorite argument, was that CO two is

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<v Speaker 3>a blessing because yes, plants I use it to grow.

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<v Speaker 3>He also referred to garden houses and how they add

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<v Speaker 3>COEO two in order to a stimulate the growth of

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<v Speaker 3>plants and things like that. That was one of his

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<v Speaker 3>favorite talking points of the Blessings of CO two, because

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<v Speaker 3>he hated the way that CO two was portrayed in

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<v Speaker 3>the media as if it was like toxic or poisonous

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<v Speaker 3>or something like that, making the claim that it's essential

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<v Speaker 3>for life on earth, which is of course true, but

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<v Speaker 3>not the issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Right right, Yeah, that's interesting. So what kinds of things

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<v Speaker 1>was he doing through this project.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the type of things that he did was mostly

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<v Speaker 3>well getting himself in the public eye. So he wrote articles,

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<v Speaker 3>published several books and became like the spokesperson for the

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<v Speaker 3>climate skeptic movement as it was growing then in the nineties,

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<v Speaker 3>And in nineteen ninety six he in one of his

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<v Speaker 3>notes he says that he's become the opposition leader of

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<v Speaker 3>the climate skeptic movement in the Netherlands. And so he

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<v Speaker 3>for example, was invited for parliamentary commission that was charged

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<v Speaker 3>in nineteen ninety five by the Dutch government in order

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<v Speaker 3>to sort of see like climate change, what is it

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<v Speaker 3>and what are we supposed to do about it? He

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<v Speaker 3>said things in the same line as the CO two

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<v Speaker 3>is good for plans, and those were the quotes that

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<v Speaker 3>also made it to the Dutch national news. But on

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<v Speaker 3>the other hand, he was maybe even more influential in

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<v Speaker 3>his own network. Basically so is a Butcher he had

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<v Speaker 3>throughout his life. He had several he was on the

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<v Speaker 3>board of several big Dutch companies, and the way that

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<v Speaker 3>he works is like he would write an article or

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<v Speaker 3>publish a book, he would send it to his friends

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<v Speaker 3>in the boardrooms, and then they would use it again

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<v Speaker 3>to lobby towards politician against taking measurements in order to

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<v Speaker 3>reduce CO two E missions. For example, like there are

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<v Speaker 3>letters in the archive between fitz Butcher and Karl Heinz.

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<v Speaker 3>Bichel was then part of the board of directors of Bayer,

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<v Speaker 3>the big German chemical company, and then Bichol writes in

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<v Speaker 3>response to receiving his books, very enthusiastic about the book,

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<v Speaker 3>and that he sent it through to the Dutch Minister

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<v Speaker 3>of the Environment. I think it's sort of similar towards

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<v Speaker 3>the way that that skeptics have worked in general. So

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<v Speaker 3>you write an article or a book that has some

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<v Speaker 3>scientific weights to it, you send that to your friends

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<v Speaker 3>and they use it then to start lobbying or say

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<v Speaker 3>that a there are so much doubts about climate change.

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<v Speaker 3>You shouldn't take any measures to reduce your two issues,

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<v Speaker 3>because we don't even know if those measures are necessary.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, you know, I I've spent a lot of time

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<v Speaker 4>studying these guys because I find them interesting just from

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<v Speaker 4>like a psychological standpoint too. So I'm curious if you

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<v Speaker 4>found anything that indicated sort of and you know, what

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<v Speaker 4>the ideological underpinning of his work was, or you know,

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<v Speaker 4>like what was driving him beyond just you know, getting

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<v Speaker 4>money from Shell and whoever else.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the interesting thing with Butcher is that he actually

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<v Speaker 3>he did not receive the money himself or like he worked.

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<v Speaker 3>He worked for free. Basically, he was already retired. He

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<v Speaker 3>was eighty years old when this project started. And the

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<v Speaker 3>money that he received he used it to pay his

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<v Speaker 3>two assistants and to cover like travel experienses and things

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<v Speaker 3>like that. So you can consider him as like a

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.680
<v Speaker 3>true believer when it came to his a believer in

0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 3>his own story when it came to climate change. But

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.000
<v Speaker 3>also like it's a bit strange because he also liked

0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.440
<v Speaker 3>this whole project. It lasts for nine years, and it

0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.800
<v Speaker 3>lasts only during the time that these companies are willing

0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.360
<v Speaker 3>to pay for it. So when in nineteen ninety eight,

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 3>the funding stops. He also stops working on the COE

0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 3>two project and starts working on an other advisory work. So, yes,

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.080
<v Speaker 3>he was a true believer, but also, like I think,

0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:56.040
<v Speaker 3>vulnerable for the type of the said, a prestige that

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 3>came along with it. So the CEOs and these companies

0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.000
<v Speaker 3>they are weird about climate change. They need somebody to

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.960
<v Speaker 3>tell another story basically, or a story that fits them better.

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 3>They saw this guy and saw he was useful. And

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 3>for Butcher was like, I matter, I still matter. I've

0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.120
<v Speaker 3>been for my whole life. I've been in these boardrooms

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 3>and been with all these important people. After I retired,

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.360
<v Speaker 3>this sort of stop and this was a way for

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 3>him to sort of get back in the spotlight.

0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, that makes sense. That's really interesting.

0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 4>You know, what was the impact of his work in

0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.880
<v Speaker 4>terms of government policy or anything like? Did you did

0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 4>you find any evidence of him having an impact there?

0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's you know, the opinions are they vary a

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit, but in general, like people who knew him personally,

0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:54.160
<v Speaker 2>they or worked in governments at the time, some high

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>palsy makers, they say, well, he had a huge influence

0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 2>just because he had such a high standing, a big reputation.

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.840
<v Speaker 2>He knew everybody. Everybody knew him. People who were all

0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.720
<v Speaker 2>looking for an alternative story they came to Butcher, and

0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.240
<v Speaker 2>so he had a huge informal influence. Also because he

0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.520
<v Speaker 2>had this reputation of, you know, being one of the

0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.280
<v Speaker 2>founders of the Club of Rome. So people were like,

0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, if he said it, there must be some

0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.320
<v Speaker 2>true you know, he had the image of being an

0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:31.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, environmentally aware scientists. So this reputation helped him

0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:36.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot. And this is actually also acknowledged in one

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 2>fascinating report of a meeting with his main contact within

0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:46.840
<v Speaker 2>Royal Dutch shell Hip from anglshoven So from Angelshova tells Butcher,

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:52.000
<v Speaker 2>according to this report that he has more influence as

0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 2>a scientist when he talks about climate than when you know,

0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the CEOs of the companies talk about it. So they

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.320
<v Speaker 2>were well aware that his reputation as a scientist, as

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 2>an independent scientist, helped to get his message across. And

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.200
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't on television and you know radio interviews. Other

0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 2>people say, well, you should overestimate it. It's really difficult.

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.960
<v Speaker 2>It's difficult to measure in general. But if we look

0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 2>in general to how the media in the Netherlands writes

0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.040
<v Speaker 2>about this topic. We also see that in general the

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Dutch media has given ample space to the skeptic point

0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.280
<v Speaker 2>of view. There are several reports about this. One report

0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.240
<v Speaker 2>says that like eighteen percent of the articles in Dutch

0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 2>media are you Skeptical, which is of course not representative

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of you know, the opinions within the scientific community. If

0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.080
<v Speaker 2>you look in the Netherlans, it's just a handful of

0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 2>people like Butcher, and the people who are active today,

0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:02.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, they can all kind of directly or indirectly

0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>be linked to him. So you know, Fitz Butcher his

0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.399
<v Speaker 2>influence is not only because he was present in the media,

0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 2>but also because he mentored like a new generation. And

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.359
<v Speaker 2>we see see this also in his archive that he

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>had a lot of contact with another journalist, Simon Gosendal,

0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.159
<v Speaker 2>who still writes today and is like one of the

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:28.040
<v Speaker 2>best known skeptics until recently. Now he starts to acknowledge

0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 2>that the IPCC is actually right. But he followed the

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.679
<v Speaker 2>mission of Fitz Butcher and he was for one of

0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:37.760
<v Speaker 2>the biggest magazines of the Netherlands. He has written like

0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 2>dozens of articles about this and with the enormous reach

0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 2>another you know, well known skeptic, Hans Labone, still active today,

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, still active collaborating with the current climate skeptic

0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.520
<v Speaker 2>groups like Clintel, which is a new organization. He was

0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.679
<v Speaker 2>also personally mentored by Fitz Butcher. So this handful of

0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>people who has you know, reached a huge audience. They

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.840
<v Speaker 2>can all kind of be be linked to Pitcher and

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.360
<v Speaker 2>they have all well many of them have been mentored

0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.080
<v Speaker 2>by him to spread this message and to continue his

0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>fight as he would call it himself.

0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.959
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's it for this time. I hope you enjoyed

0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.840
<v Speaker 1>this episode. Will drop links to various stories that have

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 1>come out of the Shell Papers reporting in our show notes.

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to check those out. One thing to note

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:57.399
<v Speaker 1>after our interview, Alexandro sent me an email clarifying that

0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.960
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't just Shell that was funding this Butcher guy.

0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.400
<v Speaker 1>There were twenty four other firms that were also funding

0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.679
<v Speaker 1>his climate skepticism, so he wanted to be clear that

0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.040
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't solely a Shell campaign. However, they were really

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.719
<v Speaker 1>surprised to find that Shell had been directly funding this

0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 1>guy in any way at all. You can see all

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:23.000
<v Speaker 1>the details behind that reporting and many other stories in

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.639
<v Speaker 1>the links that will drop in the show notes today.

0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.679
<v Speaker 1>And a reminder if you haven't yet signed up for

0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.960
<v Speaker 1>one of our various membership options, I highly recommend doing

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0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.720
<v Speaker 1>be amongst the first to listen to our next investigative series.

0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:44.920
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0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:49.919
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0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.919
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0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.400
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0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:48.960
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0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Down the back deplete the complete deta