Speaker 1: It really a lures you in. As a young adult,
Speaker 1: I felt like a part of something for the first time.
Speaker 1: This is false Prophets, the story of Hillsong. It's a
Speaker 1: story of how a small church in Australia grew into
Speaker 1: a mega church. It's a lesson in how to make
Speaker 1: church cool and turn religion into a brand. It's a
Speaker 1: lesson in power, money, and abuse. Thousands of people say
Speaker 1: Hillsong brought them to Jesus, but Hillsong brought me to
Speaker 1: a very dark place. In this series, I've had access
Speaker 1: to information Hillsong never wanted the public to see, and
Speaker 1: access to people prepared to speak out false prophets. Dived
Speaker 1: into a world of star preachers, and we investigate Hillsong's wealth.
Speaker 1: But most of all, these podcasts are about people who
Speaker 1: believed in a church that said welcome home. I was
Speaker 1: a part of Hillsong Church, but I left and now
Speaker 1: I'm telling my story. My name is no Emmy. My
Speaker 1: last name is pronounced d bit. I'm twenty six years old.
Speaker 1: I live in Boston, Massachusetts. The biggest things you need
Speaker 1: to know are I was born in Arizona, moved to
Speaker 1: Mexico when I was eleven, years old, and I moved
Speaker 1: back to the US when I was sixteen. When I
Speaker 1: speak in Spanish, it's definitely my Mexican side comes out,
Speaker 1: and that's the best way for me to describe it.
Speaker 1: But it's more of a louder person that loves to
Speaker 1: be dancing. And here's a small beat, even from a
Speaker 1: car alarm, and I will start dancing to that. Behind me,
Speaker 1: Um is my dog, Teddy. He's like licking himself and
Speaker 1: himself's nasty. He is my service dog and he will
Speaker 1: be with us on the show. You might hear him
Speaker 1: Um a little bit as we're recording. Sorry, Eddy Eda.
Speaker 1: So I adopted Teddy almost three years ago. Two and
Speaker 1: a half years ago, right after I left Hill Song,
Speaker 1: my therapist recommended me getting an emotional support animal. He
Speaker 1: believed that would be really helpful to distract my brain
Speaker 1: from thinking too much and going down spirals and focusing
Speaker 1: on taking care of something. I'm a caregiver. I love
Speaker 1: taking care of people, and so if I could take
Speaker 1: care of an animal, that was like the best way possible.
Speaker 1: And since I'm a dog person, I looked for a
Speaker 1: dog and I found Teddy. He's a Shitsu mix eighteen pounds,
Speaker 1: little bundle of joy. He's eleven years old, but he
Speaker 1: can be quite the character. Sometimes there'll be moments ready
Speaker 1: to simple way to make him stop. The one thing
Speaker 1: I forgot is I have a squeaky chair. Can you
Speaker 1: hear it now? And this is journalist Hardy getting the
Speaker 1: inside story that Hillsong wasn't eager to tell. Should I
Speaker 1: get something that isn't squeaky? L has close contacts at
Speaker 1: the heart of the organization, and she'll be revealing a
Speaker 1: lot of things that Hillsong would prefer didn't become public.
Speaker 1: But first, here's what you need to know about Hillsong.
Speaker 1: It started almost forty years ago in Australia. It's now
Speaker 1: spread to more than thirty countries, and it turns over
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars. So I want to get
Speaker 1: a better understanding of what your definition of Hillsong is
Speaker 1: because I obviously have my own from my own experience,
Speaker 1: but I want to hear from you. I think that
Speaker 1: Hillsong is a lating light of the global Pentecostal movement.
Speaker 1: Even though it now defines itself as nondenominational, it is
Speaker 1: still part of this global Pentecostal movement, which is the
Speaker 1: fastest growing religion in the world. There's about six hundred
Speaker 1: million believe as worldwide and counting. And what Hillsong did
Speaker 1: amazingly well was it sort of made itself the pop
Speaker 1: culture arm of this movement. It made itself the lighter touch.
Speaker 1: It made itself this big city place for for new
Speaker 1: people that were arriving. You know, maybe you grew up
Speaker 1: in a small town in Arizona, or maybe you grew
Speaker 1: up somewhere overseas and you get to a big city
Speaker 1: and you feel loss and a bit lonely and you
Speaker 1: find this church and it's so welcoming and they played
Speaker 1: this great music and everyone's young and cool and diverse
Speaker 1: and all the things that you think about when you
Speaker 1: moved to a big city and being a part of
Speaker 1: that life. And that's what Hillsong did amazingly well. So
Speaker 1: it was never blood and thunder, anti abortion, all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You were never really getting that on
Speaker 1: the outside. And that's what Hillsong has done so well.
Speaker 1: But I think for me, really, yeah, Hillsong is is
Speaker 1: about the music. When you think about its money and
Speaker 1: its cultural power. It was pioneering and packaging. Are this
Speaker 1: really pop friendly music, grant that other churches around the
Speaker 1: world but having to play to stop their congregations walking
Speaker 1: out the door. That's so true for many people. We
Speaker 1: know the music, and I know as a pastor's kid
Speaker 1: from a traditional Pentecostal background, Hillsong felt very different to me,
Speaker 1: But I didn't know much about the man who started
Speaker 1: it all, Brian Houston, or Hillsong's history or theology. It
Speaker 1: was just so popular and it was giving people something
Speaker 1: in the here and now as well as the ever after,
Speaker 1: and it was really showing the way that you could
Speaker 1: be a Christian in the modern world. Thank you for
Speaker 1: sharing that, because as someone who is from Arizona and
Speaker 1: you gave that a little explanation. Um, I was coming
Speaker 1: to a bigger city like Boston, hill Song was something
Speaker 1: that was very inviting and welcoming into this big new
Speaker 1: city experience, and I didn't hear a lot about that.
Speaker 1: Like abortion or LGBTQ policies, or like different beliefs, they
Speaker 1: are very mainstream with the other churches. So to hear
Speaker 1: you say that is very validating, and I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: validating for other folks listening as well. From my experience
Speaker 1: and my perspective, I would see Hillsong as a dumpster
Speaker 1: fire because it's burning from the inside. I tried staying
Speaker 1: there longer to help change it as someone who was
Speaker 1: a volunteer and a leader there, but through my own experience,
Speaker 1: it just became too much and it would have taken
Speaker 1: my life if I would have stayed a minute longer.
Speaker 1: And now they've been doing their own chaos and setting
Speaker 1: their own fires with their own pr Hillsong Church has
Speaker 1: been accused of breaking Australian laws by sending money overseas
Speaker 1: to avoid scrutiny. A whistleblower, Sue hill Song has alleged
Speaker 1: to make a church moved millions of dollars through overseas
Speaker 1: entity to avoid scrutinate for Australia's charity regulator has launched
Speaker 1: an investigation into hills Church. Documents claim church leaders use
Speaker 1: tax free money the large cash gifts to hill Songs
Speaker 1: founder and his family. Hillsong founder Brian Houston denies concealing
Speaker 1: child abuse. Mega church hit with sexual assault lawsuit by students.
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber's pastor, Carl Lentz, fired for moral failures. Hillsong
Speaker 1: shuts down Dallas campus following reports pastors misused funds. Hill
Speaker 1: Songs Brian Houston resigns from megachurch after internal investigations found
Speaker 1: he engaged in inappropriate conduct. That's a long list of scandals,
Speaker 1: but the list of people you need to know is
Speaker 1: actually really short. We mentioned Hillsong's founder and leader, Brian Houston.
Speaker 1: He resigned in March of two. There's also his wife, Bobby,
Speaker 1: and their kids. They all had key roles in the
Speaker 1: family business, some of them still do. And another name
Speaker 1: you'll hear about the star preacher Carl Lentz, famous for
Speaker 1: hanging out with Justin Babel. He was sacked in twenties
Speaker 1: twenty for what Hillsong called moral failings after he admitted
Speaker 1: to cheating on his wife. Some inside is speculate carl
Speaker 1: It's is downfall was actually orchestrated by the Hillsong leadership
Speaker 1: itself and someone else who's in my story. Josh Comes
Speaker 1: and his wife Leona. Josh was initially a part of
Speaker 1: Hillsong New York and then became lead campus pastor in Boston.
Speaker 1: The church i attended, Hillsong is a complex global network
Speaker 1: of legal entities and trying to unravel them as tough,
Speaker 1: but its message is simple. Everyone is welcome. But for me,
Speaker 1: behind that message was the system I believe exploited me
Speaker 1: as a volunteer, a system that didn't affirm me as
Speaker 1: a queer person, and a church that left me feeling
Speaker 1: spiritually abused. And I'm not the only one with the story.
Speaker 1: This series is all about people like Megan Oludhara, Andrew,
Speaker 1: Janice and Tiff. I was introduced by two friends that
Speaker 1: I went to high school with, and they introduced men
Speaker 1: a whole song and um that first day is the
Speaker 1: date that I have tattooed on my collar bone. It
Speaker 1: really alurres you in as a young adult. I felt
Speaker 1: like a part of something for the first time. It
Speaker 1: looked and felt different from the traditional church that I
Speaker 1: grew up in at a bar Monday through Saturday, the
Speaker 1: place that the church was held at at the time.
Speaker 1: The first time I went Irvan Plaza. It's a bar,
Speaker 1: it's a concert hall, it appears unconventional, but at the
Speaker 1: court it's a Pentecostal church. I felt like I was
Speaker 1: building God's church and I felt included and it felt
Speaker 1: like a family. I get why Hillsong was such a
Speaker 1: compelling proposition for that thirteen year old kid that walked
Speaker 1: through those doors. I look back at my twenty year
Speaker 1: old self, the brave one who, even in that intoxication
Speaker 1: of hills Song, backed himself to leave. Even while we
Speaker 1: were attending, I remember sometimes looking around and being like,
Speaker 1: what the fund did I get myself into? On the
Speaker 1: back end, looking at it's like manipulation, right, But at
Speaker 1: that time it really felt special and it felt like
Speaker 1: we were doing something awesome, and I felt like I
Speaker 1: was welcoming people home like that was what we were
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. Hillsong is a major dumpster fire.
Speaker 1: The one thing I don't miss about Hillsong is microaggressions.
Speaker 1: I would like hill Song to stop existing, but even
Speaker 1: more than that, I would like for it to account
Speaker 1: for what it's done. It's really easy to get to
Speaker 1: the point where you can say, oh, well, how did
Speaker 1: you fall for that? That was easy to fall for.
Speaker 1: I would never fall for something like that. But the
Speaker 1: reality it is that we do every day. We fall
Speaker 1: for a lot of things, and some things are worse
Speaker 1: than others. And that's the feeling that I want you
Speaker 1: to sit with, to be able to understand how evangelical
Speaker 1: Christianity and honing it down to Hillsong itself can be dangerous,
Speaker 1: and it was dangerous for a lot of us, and
Speaker 1: we left, and we're here telling our stories. In this
Speaker 1: series is all about getting answers from Hillsong. We each
Speaker 1: have a different experience. Some people left recently, some years ago,
Speaker 1: some people have talked to us on tape, and some anonymously.
Speaker 1: But the thing we all fell for was a great cell.
Speaker 1: For me, it was in a Boston nightclub which hosted
Speaker 1: a gate club in its basement during the week that
Speaker 1: turned out to be ironic. So you get to Royal,
Speaker 1: it's a nightclub, and you get to the front door
Speaker 1: and there is usually a line, a line out the door,
Speaker 1: which is already feeling like concert vibe, like why are
Speaker 1: there people waiting outside in the line of a church.
Speaker 1: So the host team would often be talking to people
Speaker 1: in the line, pending them water or some doughnut holes,
Speaker 1: so different little things to just keep them interacting. And
Speaker 1: they would have signs that said welcome home, you belong,
Speaker 1: Welcome to church. The second spot they would encounter would
Speaker 1: be the welcome lounge, and then the welcome lounge. There
Speaker 1: was like a merch table, so areas where you could
Speaker 1: buy Brian and Bobby's book or a T shirt or
Speaker 1: an album of either one of the bands. There was
Speaker 1: like secular music sometimes playing, or sometimes they played Hillsong music.
Speaker 1: So it's like they were trying to create this very
Speaker 1: different vibe. We're not like every other church. They kind
Speaker 1: of wanted to chill things down. You're led into the
Speaker 1: main service area and it's dark here, and there's the
Speaker 1: lights are dim, and there's lights that are on which
Speaker 1: are like blue and purple and red, so very different
Speaker 1: from your regular charge that just has all the lights on.
Speaker 1: Then they would have a screen up in the front
Speaker 1: of really big screen that would have announcements like how
Speaker 1: to get connected to a connect group, how to give
Speaker 1: for the service, and how to give your offering. You
Speaker 1: could either text it, go on the app on the
Speaker 1: Hillsong app, you can go online, or you can give
Speaker 1: cash or in an envelope. So there is different ways
Speaker 1: they were making it really easy for you to give
Speaker 1: money wor should you. The worship should only last twenty
Speaker 1: minutes and I know this because as part of the
Speaker 1: events team, I had to do a run sheet. If
Speaker 1: they went over they could get in trouble with higher ups.
Speaker 1: For me, it felt like it was respectful of people's time.
Speaker 1: But now that I looked at it's very much of
Speaker 1: production where it's meticulously done minute by minute and like
Speaker 1: control to the second I worship you. How do you
Speaker 1: transform a real into a church? It's the question that
Speaker 1: a lot of people would ask. Uh. Someone would get
Speaker 1: there at five am. Uh, there was already cleaners from
Speaker 1: the venue who would be cleaning out because on Saturday nights,
Speaker 1: obviously the club had been going and you know, people
Speaker 1: were partying in there and drinking. Uh. So on Sunday
Speaker 1: mornings around four or five o'clock in the morning, that'd
Speaker 1: be people cleaning from the venue, and some people from
Speaker 1: from Hillsong would show up, like from Target or like
Speaker 1: a store. We would buy black sheets like bed sheets,
Speaker 1: and we would use those and cover up an a
Speaker 1: t M with a black sheet and tape it with
Speaker 1: UH with black tape, and so that way you couldn't
Speaker 1: see as you were walking in. It blended into the
Speaker 1: walls that were painted black. And they wanted to to
Speaker 1: cover a t M s because they said they didn't
Speaker 1: want to be uh money centered or for people to
Speaker 1: feel like they had to like take up money and
Speaker 1: take out cash. Um. They wanted to be a little
Speaker 1: bit more subtle about that money aspect. And while they
Speaker 1: were doing all of this, the venue was mopping cleaning
Speaker 1: the bathrooms. But there was still that smell of alcohol
Speaker 1: and sometimes the floors would be a little sticky and
Speaker 1: as you're walking you can hear like the sticky shoes
Speaker 1: like on the floor. Um. So it was really nasty
Speaker 1: and like grungy, but you were doing church and as
Speaker 1: a volunteer, it really felt fun because you interacted with
Speaker 1: the other volunteers. Looking back, I'm like ill, like I
Speaker 1: would never sit on any couch or chair at Royal
Speaker 1: because it was disgusting. It's probably the reality of Hillsog
Speaker 1: of they're sticky floors and there's grungy carpets everywhere. I
Speaker 1: remember having to grab there's air fresheners. I would grab
Speaker 1: two and I would start spraying them with my arms open,
Speaker 1: one on each arm, and I would just circle so
Speaker 1: that we could get the air freshener to cover the
Speaker 1: smell of alcohol and cigarette. I feel like the air
Speaker 1: freshener is a metaphor for Hillsong's PR team because they're
Speaker 1: constantly trying to cover for the mess and the drama
Speaker 1: that's happening in the and all the accusations that are
Speaker 1: coming out. And the PR team for Hillsong is definitely
Speaker 1: the air freshener that is not doing a great job
Speaker 1: because you could still see through it. And that's basically
Speaker 1: what the air freshener was at Hillsog Boston. From my
Speaker 1: own personal experience, I've seen how Hillsong handles people who
Speaker 1: criticize them, um for like tweeting, to putting out statements,
Speaker 1: to saying things on a Sunday service. But what is
Speaker 1: that like for you as a journalist? Like, how do
Speaker 1: they quote unquote attack you or try to discredit you?
Speaker 1: Are you on the wall of shame? Do you know
Speaker 1: if you're on the Hillsome Wall of shame? Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. Can you tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit more of that? So so you know how
Speaker 1: they have security services at all of their at their services,
Speaker 1: They've got their own in house security team and the
Speaker 1: head of security sits in with the TV monitoring and
Speaker 1: they have pictures up of people who aren't allowed in.
Speaker 1: You know, it might just be some guy on the
Speaker 1: street who's gone in and cause trouble before. But it
Speaker 1: is often a lot of ex hill songers who might
Speaker 1: have appeared in things, or people who have been told
Speaker 1: to leave the church and aren't welcome back. So there
Speaker 1: is apparently a wall of shame with pictures of troublemakers
Speaker 1: and people who aren't welcome on the wall. So I
Speaker 1: do wonder if you're on it. Probably here in in
Speaker 1: Boston and in New York I could see that. I
Speaker 1: can imagine. I'm just pointed that I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: on it because when we were recording out in Sydney
Speaker 1: a few months ago and got sprung by the Houstons
Speaker 1: out the front of their house and then had to
Speaker 1: go to church that evening, I was I was speaking.
Speaker 1: I was really nervous that something was going to happen,
Speaker 1: because I have a source who has worked high up
Speaker 1: insecurity in Sydney and who told me the best entrance
Speaker 1: to go through to avoid detection who might be looking
Speaker 1: at me and when, and just sailed through the front door.
Speaker 1: But they certainly know who I am. I have sources
Speaker 1: within quite high levels of the church who are still
Speaker 1: there at the moment, who reached out to me, who
Speaker 1: a broadly very anti Brian Houston. But I have had
Speaker 1: some people within the church reach out to me to
Speaker 1: put some other sides the story, but they haven't really
Speaker 1: given me any grief. I haven't had any defamation threats
Speaker 1: or anything like that, and I'm surprised that they've never
Speaker 1: issued a threat. I mean, they detest the media, Brian,
Speaker 1: even in the very early days. You know, there's recordings
Speaker 1: of him saying that the media is always against us.
Speaker 1: They've always been looked at very suspiciously in Australia. Part
Speaker 1: of the movement to the US was, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: part of being accepted and understood a lot more than
Speaker 1: they were in Australia. From the very beginning. Australian media
Speaker 1: and public in general were just very skeptical. We don't
Speaker 1: really practice faith like that. We don't do the prosperity
Speaker 1: Gospels stuff. There endless optimism, the music, the big global brand,
Speaker 1: the big shiny services. The Australians were just always very
Speaker 1: suspicious of that. You know, he's on record as saying
Speaker 1: the media is only ever interested in the money. They
Speaker 1: don't care about the good that we do. There are
Speaker 1: some good people that work in city Care and things
Speaker 1: like that. Who do do some good outreach and charity
Speaker 1: work and things like that. But you can't have it
Speaker 1: all one way. When you're turning over just obscene amounts
Speaker 1: of money for a religious organization, people are going to
Speaker 1: ask more questions. Yeah, I think there can. And I
Speaker 1: like one point, you say that there's good people within,
Speaker 1: and I will never deny that there are good, genuine
Speaker 1: people within. The system itself is shitty. The system itself
Speaker 1: is not good, and that's what makes the difference. There
Speaker 1: could be good people within a bad system. I am
Speaker 1: Janice Legata. I like to say I was born in California,
Speaker 1: but born for New York. New York is is New York.
Speaker 1: And so if you hear something we need to do
Speaker 1: something here, let me know, because I it's it's white
Speaker 1: noise to me. Janice was there at the start of
Speaker 1: Hill Song USA in New York City in twenty times.
Speaker 1: She's a really big part of my story and a
Speaker 1: powerful voice for some of the people who have left
Speaker 1: the song. I am a writer, a fighter, and a
Speaker 1: matron saint of cats. So no Emmy and I as
Speaker 1: of yet have not met in person, but I mean
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at least partially responsible for her
Speaker 1: experience in the sense that I partially responsible for the existence,
Speaker 1: maybe not the existence of Hillsong Boston, but definitely of
Speaker 1: Josh Coimes being the pastor and the leader over there.
Speaker 1: As you know, Josh Comes is someone I I've known
Speaker 1: since two thousand five. He and I were at Hillsong
Speaker 1: College at the same time. We're in the same little
Speaker 1: morning chapel leadership group. You know, his story and mine. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a perfect encapsulation of the Hillsong experience.
Speaker 1: Because Josh Comes is straight, white male, his trajectory from
Speaker 1: Hillsong College was very different from mine, even though we
Speaker 1: just ended up in a lot of the same places,
Speaker 1: from the beginning all through Hillsong, New York, to where
Speaker 1: he's on the platform, he's preaching, and I'm behind the
Speaker 1: scenes ghostwriting, you know, the messages that he's giving and
Speaker 1: doing a lot to improve his speaking um and make
Speaker 1: him seem more charismatic than he actually is, to the
Speaker 1: point where he ends up leading a campus, and you know,
Speaker 1: I end up here. I wrote the words I physically
Speaker 1: and and metaphorically. I was always setting the stage for
Speaker 1: these men um and was always and always destined to
Speaker 1: be behind the scenes as far as they were concerned.
Speaker 1: And that also goes back to part of my my
Speaker 1: penance and what I'm since I'm paying for is you
Speaker 1: thinking I could help change things to make things more
Speaker 1: diverse um and trying to teach Carl, help Carl along
Speaker 1: with racial justice kind of issues, but ultimately just teaching him,
Speaker 1: I think, how to trick the system and to make
Speaker 1: things appear more diverse on the surface, and to you know,
Speaker 1: trick people into thinking this was a safe space for them.
Speaker 1: Like I have one of my close friends who says,
Speaker 1: you know, she came to the church and and saw
Speaker 1: me on the platform, and I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: she's on She's on the platform. This must be a
Speaker 1: safe space. And so it's funny because on this side
Speaker 1: of things, we were the people they saw the least
Speaker 1: amount of value in. Right, A lot of us are
Speaker 1: speaking up partly because a lot of us are free
Speaker 1: to because we were never given India's we were never paid.
Speaker 1: They never saw the worth in us, never suspected that
Speaker 1: we would say anything or than anyone would listen. And
Speaker 1: so here we are the people women of color who
Speaker 1: they least respected and least expected anything of and where
Speaker 1: some of the loudest voices out here because we just
Speaker 1: saw so much because they never saw us, and they
Speaker 1: just felt felt free to just be bad actors because
Speaker 1: we were to them. I think just furniture, right. We
Speaker 1: just did not register. Now they probably they probably don't
Speaker 1: even regret it, probably just annoyed by it. Hillsong found
Speaker 1: it pretty easy to ignore our voices, and when the
Speaker 1: celebrities stopped coming, people forgot about their connection pretty quickly too.
Speaker 1: The results of an inquiry into allegations of sexual and
Speaker 1: financial misconducts at the New York City church were never
Speaker 1: made public by Hillsong, but the trouble didn't go away.
Speaker 1: Brian Houston resigned in March two after an investigation found
Speaker 1: he behaved inappropriately towards two women, and then church has
Speaker 1: started to break away from the Hillsong brand in Europe
Speaker 1: and the US. The statement I'm gonna make is not easy.
Speaker 1: This past week, we were all saddened to hear of
Speaker 1: Pastor Bryan's resignation. I know you feel the weight of that,
Speaker 1: as do I. His continuation as our senior pastor was
Speaker 1: not tenable and Unfortunately, there's been a lot of disagreement
Speaker 1: around that across our world, including as some of you
Speaker 1: will have read by now, within our own board and
Speaker 1: within our own eldership. And I'm not breaking that news.
Speaker 1: It's out there. I'm just trying to summon the courage
Speaker 1: to face it that it has become clear that we
Speaker 1: cannot continue in our global family as much as we
Speaker 1: love it, and so we have chosen this week to
Speaker 1: withdraw from being Hillsong Church. This is Terry Cree is
Speaker 1: breaking the news to his congregation at Hillsong Phoenix. I've
Speaker 1: spoken to him about his decision, and I think it's
Speaker 1: worth hearing some more of what he said, because it's
Speaker 1: very revealing. First, why are we taking this action over
Speaker 1: the past year, following the sin that was exposed and
Speaker 1: Hillsong Church, New York City and the subsequent investigation that
Speaker 1: was conducted into sexual misconduct and into financial misappropriation. I
Speaker 1: encourage the results of that report to be made in
Speaker 1: some general form. I understand the sensitivity of that. I
Speaker 1: asked that the report be redacted so names could be protected.
Speaker 1: I asked that the report be synopsized so that we
Speaker 1: could embrace accountability and transparency, and for whatever reason that
Speaker 1: requests was denied. As information began to leak out as
Speaker 1: to what was in the report, and as the Global
Speaker 1: Board made the decision to increase financial controls within the churches,
Speaker 1: lead pastors were suddenly asked to sign in d a's
Speaker 1: and non competes. Some of us couldn't do that in
Speaker 1: good conscience, and this has played out in recent weeks.
Speaker 1: It came down in recent weeks to the demand that
Speaker 1: we sign non disclosure agreements and non competes, meaning that
Speaker 1: if we were removed from our positions, we could not
Speaker 1: plant churches again within our community for at least one year.
Speaker 1: Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to
Speaker 1: reseat our local board, we formally requested the release of
Speaker 1: our church back to us. Sadly, the board refused our
Speaker 1: request and I was told this past week it is
Speaker 1: quote all or nothing close quote. We either had to
Speaker 1: allow the Global Board to govern our church and to
Speaker 1: own our properties, or we had to leave, And so
Speaker 1: with great sadness, I chose to leave. Our hearts are
Speaker 1: broken for anyone who has been victimized by anyone anywhere,
Speaker 1: for any reason, in Hillsong Church or College. That's interesting
Speaker 1: to listen to because for years many of us were
Speaker 1: speaking out and we were ignored or branded as troublemakers.
Speaker 1: We asked for transparency and we got none. It's also
Speaker 1: interesting to pick up on that point about nondisclosure agreements.
Speaker 1: That's something that comes up in our investigation, not just
Speaker 1: among the people in powerful positions like Terry Chris, but
Speaker 1: with members of staff and even volunteers. And the report
Speaker 1: Terry Chris talked about into the goings on at Hillsong,
Speaker 1: New York City, well, we're going to hear a lot
Speaker 1: more about that, which kind of brings me back to
Speaker 1: the point of the series we're making. For me, it's
Speaker 1: three things to help you understand what happened to people
Speaker 1: at Hillsong, to keep shining a spotlight on it, and
Speaker 1: to try and change a system. But that's a big one.
Speaker 1: There's something much bigger than just this particular institution. In
Speaker 1: my opinion, it has everything to do with modern Christendom,
Speaker 1: especially within the evangelical world. There's something really rotten at
Speaker 1: the core within evangelicalism. This is Boss to Fichen. He's
Speaker 1: a lawyer who represents victims of church abuse. He has
Speaker 1: professional experience with Hillsong, and he's also a grandson of
Speaker 1: the famous preacher Billy Graham. The only thing that I
Speaker 1: know that can bring accountability to institutions, including hill Song,
Speaker 1: is constant exposure and bringing darkness to light. And ultimately,
Speaker 1: these institutional leaders are going to have to decide whether
Speaker 1: or not their very existence depends upon whether they make
Speaker 1: the changes that are needed and to be held accountable
Speaker 1: for past conduct. And so I don't know. With Hillsong,
Speaker 1: I think it's a little too early to make that determination.
Speaker 1: But my personal observations and opinion is that what I've
Speaker 1: seen so far is more of a focus on institutional
Speaker 1: protection and not a genuine sense of repentance and grieving
Speaker 1: over what has been done and the harm that has
Speaker 1: been perpetrated on so many. I think they would prefer,
Speaker 1: like many institutions, to try to move beyond this sooner
Speaker 1: rather than later. I'm a big believer that you cannot
Speaker 1: move forward, truly move forward, genuinely move forward as a
Speaker 1: ministry organization until you have fully addressed the past, So
Speaker 1: being truthful about what's happened, demonstrating authentic repentance through actions
Speaker 1: and statements, and then taking steps to change the culture
Speaker 1: and institutional framework of the organization to minimize that type
Speaker 1: of stuff from ever happening again. And sometimes that requires
Speaker 1: leaders to give up power, and people don't like to
Speaker 1: give up power, whether they're inside the church or outside
Speaker 1: the church. Which is very interesting to me because if
Speaker 1: you look at the person that Hillsong and other churches
Speaker 1: follow is Jesus, and Jesus is probably the most powerful
Speaker 1: and beautiful example of one who had unfathomable power and
Speaker 1: who gave up that power. They like to preach it,
Speaker 1: but they don't like to follow in those footsteps, being
Speaker 1: willing to give up power for the benefit of the individual.
Speaker 1: And I have not seen that in Hillsong, and I
Speaker 1: haven't seen it in in most institutions that I have
Speaker 1: addressed in my career. I'm an optimistic person. I think
Speaker 1: there can be answers, I think there can be accountability,
Speaker 1: and as Boss says, it's all about bringing light into
Speaker 1: the darkness constant exposure. In the next episode, we dive
Speaker 1: into the toxic world of Hillsong, New York. We're going
Speaker 1: to hear allegations of abuse, exploitation, even rape. These are
Speaker 1: the details Hillsong never wanted to shine a light on
Speaker 1: and when you shine a light on something, it's what
Speaker 1: stays in the shadows. That's the scariest thing of all.
Speaker 1: But I'll find someone is eager for the truth to
Speaker 1: come out. The reports that landed in my inbox give
Speaker 1: us incredible insight into Hillsong. This was the church trying
Speaker 1: to get out in front of the problems that were
Speaker 1: made by their own culture. It was never supposed to
Speaker 1: come to light to us, but clearly there are people
Speaker 1: internally who have just had enough, who realized how rotten
Speaker 1: the culture is at Hillsong and who wanted this release.
Speaker 1: Even their own lawyers are saying, you guys have got
Speaker 1: to get control of this, because you're in big trouble.
Speaker 1: Two