WEBVTT - Welcome Home 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.440 It really a lures you in. As a young adult, 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.040 I felt like a part of something for the first time. 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.240 This is false Prophets, the story of Hillsong. It's a 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.080 story of how a small church in Australia grew into 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.640 a mega church. It's a lesson in how to make 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.319 church cool and turn religion into a brand. It's a 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:25.000 lesson in power, money, and abuse. Thousands of people say 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.400 Hillsong brought them to Jesus, but Hillsong brought me to 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.440 a very dark place. In this series, I've had access 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.240 to information Hillsong never wanted the public to see, and 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:41.040 access to people prepared to speak out false prophets. Dived 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.200 into a world of star preachers, and we investigate Hillsong's wealth. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.560 But most of all, these podcasts are about people who 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.519 believed in a church that said welcome home. I was 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.600 a part of Hillsong Church, but I left and now 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:03.360 I'm telling my story. My name is no Emmy. My 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.800 last name is pronounced d bit. I'm twenty six years old. 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.479 I live in Boston, Massachusetts. The biggest things you need 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:16.800 to know are I was born in Arizona, moved to 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.000 Mexico when I was eleven, years old, and I moved 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.760 back to the US when I was sixteen. When I 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.639 speak in Spanish, it's definitely my Mexican side comes out, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.680 and that's the best way for me to describe it. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.440 But it's more of a louder person that loves to 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.840 be dancing. And here's a small beat, even from a 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:44.640 car alarm, and I will start dancing to that. Behind me, 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.200 Um is my dog, Teddy. He's like licking himself and 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:55.400 himself's nasty. He is my service dog and he will 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.720 be with us on the show. You might hear him 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:04.280 Um a little bit as we're recording. Sorry, Eddy Eda. 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.799 So I adopted Teddy almost three years ago. Two and 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.880 a half years ago, right after I left Hill Song, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.160 my therapist recommended me getting an emotional support animal. He 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.880 believed that would be really helpful to distract my brain 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:26.120 from thinking too much and going down spirals and focusing 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.720 on taking care of something. I'm a caregiver. I love 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.000 taking care of people, and so if I could take 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.320 care of an animal, that was like the best way possible. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.080 And since I'm a dog person, I looked for a 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:42.480 dog and I found Teddy. He's a Shitsu mix eighteen pounds, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.040 little bundle of joy. He's eleven years old, but he 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.959 can be quite the character. Sometimes there'll be moments ready 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.360 to simple way to make him stop. The one thing 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.320 I forgot is I have a squeaky chair. Can you 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.640 hear it now? And this is journalist Hardy getting the 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.600 inside story that Hillsong wasn't eager to tell. Should I 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.480 get something that isn't squeaky? L has close contacts at 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.240 the heart of the organization, and she'll be revealing a 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.680 lot of things that Hillsong would prefer didn't become public. 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.840 But first, here's what you need to know about Hillsong. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.760 It started almost forty years ago in Australia. It's now 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.919 spread to more than thirty countries, and it turns over 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:31.320 millions and millions of dollars. So I want to get 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.880 a better understanding of what your definition of Hillsong is 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.240 because I obviously have my own from my own experience, 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.840 but I want to hear from you. I think that 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:46.160 Hillsong is a lating light of the global Pentecostal movement. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:51.440 Even though it now defines itself as nondenominational, it is 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.000 still part of this global Pentecostal movement, which is the 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.040 fastest growing religion in the world. There's about six hundred 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.600 million believe as worldwide and counting. And what Hillsong did 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.520 amazingly well was it sort of made itself the pop 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.400 culture arm of this movement. It made itself the lighter touch. 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.600 It made itself this big city place for for new 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.800 people that were arriving. You know, maybe you grew up 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.320 in a small town in Arizona, or maybe you grew 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.760 up somewhere overseas and you get to a big city 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.840 and you feel loss and a bit lonely and you 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.159 find this church and it's so welcoming and they played 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.760 this great music and everyone's young and cool and diverse 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:34.640 and all the things that you think about when you 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.200 moved to a big city and being a part of 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.080 that life. And that's what Hillsong did amazingly well. So 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.120 it was never blood and thunder, anti abortion, all that 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.159 kind of stuff. You were never really getting that on 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.920 the outside. And that's what Hillsong has done so well. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.080 But I think for me, really, yeah, Hillsong is is 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.880 about the music. When you think about its money and 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.280 its cultural power. It was pioneering and packaging. Are this 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.560 really pop friendly music, grant that other churches around the 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.800 world but having to play to stop their congregations walking 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.159 out the door. That's so true for many people. We 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.200 know the music, and I know as a pastor's kid 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.320 from a traditional Pentecostal background, Hillsong felt very different to me, 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.640 But I didn't know much about the man who started 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.919 it all, Brian Houston, or Hillsong's history or theology. It 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.200 was just so popular and it was giving people something 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.440 in the here and now as well as the ever after, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.599 and it was really showing the way that you could 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.719 be a Christian in the modern world. Thank you for 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:40.120 sharing that, because as someone who is from Arizona and 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.760 you gave that a little explanation. Um, I was coming 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.960 to a bigger city like Boston, hill Song was something 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.400 that was very inviting and welcoming into this big new 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.120 city experience, and I didn't hear a lot about that. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.640 Like abortion or LGBTQ policies, or like different beliefs, they 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.080 are very mainstream with the other churches. So to hear 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.760 you say that is very validating, and I'm sure it's 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.160 validating for other folks listening as well. From my experience 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.839 and my perspective, I would see Hillsong as a dumpster 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.479 fire because it's burning from the inside. I tried staying 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.960 there longer to help change it as someone who was 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.919 a volunteer and a leader there, but through my own experience, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.880 it just became too much and it would have taken 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:31.920 my life if I would have stayed a minute longer. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.360 And now they've been doing their own chaos and setting 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:42.480 their own fires with their own pr Hillsong Church has 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.560 been accused of breaking Australian laws by sending money overseas 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.440 to avoid scrutiny. A whistleblower, Sue hill Song has alleged 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.839 to make a church moved millions of dollars through overseas 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:58.080 entity to avoid scrutinate for Australia's charity regulator has launched 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:03.040 an investigation into hills Church. Documents claim church leaders use 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.840 tax free money the large cash gifts to hill Songs 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.120 founder and his family. Hillsong founder Brian Houston denies concealing 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:15.600 child abuse. Mega church hit with sexual assault lawsuit by students. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:21.040 Justin Bieber's pastor, Carl Lentz, fired for moral failures. Hillsong 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.920 shuts down Dallas campus following reports pastors misused funds. Hill 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:32.160 Songs Brian Houston resigns from megachurch after internal investigations found 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:39.440 he engaged in inappropriate conduct. That's a long list of scandals, 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.160 but the list of people you need to know is 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:45.520 actually really short. We mentioned Hillsong's founder and leader, Brian Houston. 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:49.880 He resigned in March of two. There's also his wife, Bobby, 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.520 and their kids. They all had key roles in the 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.320 family business, some of them still do. And another name 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.560 you'll hear about the star preacher Carl Lentz, famous for 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.200 hanging out with Justin Babel. He was sacked in twenties 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.080 twenty for what Hillsong called moral failings after he admitted 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.680 to cheating on his wife. Some inside is speculate carl 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.640 It's is downfall was actually orchestrated by the Hillsong leadership 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.440 itself and someone else who's in my story. Josh Comes 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.520 and his wife Leona. Josh was initially a part of 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.160 Hillsong New York and then became lead campus pastor in Boston. 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.000 The church i attended, Hillsong is a complex global network 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.079 of legal entities and trying to unravel them as tough, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.120 but its message is simple. Everyone is welcome. But for me, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.560 behind that message was the system I believe exploited me 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.719 as a volunteer, a system that didn't affirm me as 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.680 a queer person, and a church that left me feeling 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.480 spiritually abused. And I'm not the only one with the story. 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.440 This series is all about people like Megan Oludhara, Andrew, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:03.280 Janice and Tiff. I was introduced by two friends that 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.959 I went to high school with, and they introduced men 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.800 a whole song and um that first day is the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.880 date that I have tattooed on my collar bone. It 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.000 really alurres you in as a young adult. I felt 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.880 like a part of something for the first time. It 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.960 looked and felt different from the traditional church that I 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.560 grew up in at a bar Monday through Saturday, the 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:30.960 place that the church was held at at the time. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.439 The first time I went Irvan Plaza. It's a bar, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.200 it's a concert hall, it appears unconventional, but at the 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.840 court it's a Pentecostal church. I felt like I was 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.800 building God's church and I felt included and it felt 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.120 like a family. I get why Hillsong was such a 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.800 compelling proposition for that thirteen year old kid that walked 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.120 through those doors. I look back at my twenty year 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:59.480 old self, the brave one who, even in that intoxication 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:06.240 of hills Song, backed himself to leave. Even while we 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.320 were attending, I remember sometimes looking around and being like, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.320 what the fund did I get myself into? On the 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.520 back end, looking at it's like manipulation, right, But at 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.320 that time it really felt special and it felt like 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.720 we were doing something awesome, and I felt like I 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.160 was welcoming people home like that was what we were 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.920 supposed to be doing. Hillsong is a major dumpster fire. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.840 The one thing I don't miss about Hillsong is microaggressions. 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:39.240 I would like hill Song to stop existing, but even 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.240 more than that, I would like for it to account 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:51.560 for what it's done. It's really easy to get to 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.760 the point where you can say, oh, well, how did 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.560 you fall for that? That was easy to fall for. 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.640 I would never fall for something like that. But the 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.880 reality it is that we do every day. We fall 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.600 for a lot of things, and some things are worse 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.920 than others. And that's the feeling that I want you 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:13.360 to sit with, to be able to understand how evangelical 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:18.720 Christianity and honing it down to Hillsong itself can be dangerous, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.800 and it was dangerous for a lot of us, and 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.800 we left, and we're here telling our stories. In this 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.280 series is all about getting answers from Hillsong. We each 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.680 have a different experience. Some people left recently, some years ago, 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.439 some people have talked to us on tape, and some anonymously. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.120 But the thing we all fell for was a great cell. 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.880 For me, it was in a Boston nightclub which hosted 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.000 a gate club in its basement during the week that 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:53.320 turned out to be ironic. So you get to Royal, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.880 it's a nightclub, and you get to the front door 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.040 and there is usually a line, a line out the door, 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.320 which is already feeling like concert vibe, like why are 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.960 there people waiting outside in the line of a church. 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.960 So the host team would often be talking to people 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:16.800 in the line, pending them water or some doughnut holes, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.920 so different little things to just keep them interacting. And 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.840 they would have signs that said welcome home, you belong, 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:28.000 Welcome to church. The second spot they would encounter would 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.439 be the welcome lounge, and then the welcome lounge. There 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.320 was like a merch table, so areas where you could 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.120 buy Brian and Bobby's book or a T shirt or 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.800 an album of either one of the bands. There was 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.839 like secular music sometimes playing, or sometimes they played Hillsong music. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.240 So it's like they were trying to create this very 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.360 different vibe. We're not like every other church. They kind 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.040 of wanted to chill things down. You're led into the 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:02.000 main service area and it's dark here, and there's the 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.720 lights are dim, and there's lights that are on which 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.040 are like blue and purple and red, so very different 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.960 from your regular charge that just has all the lights on. 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.840 Then they would have a screen up in the front 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.120 of really big screen that would have announcements like how 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.559 to get connected to a connect group, how to give 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.680 for the service, and how to give your offering. You 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.199 could either text it, go on the app on the 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.960 Hillsong app, you can go online, or you can give 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.440 cash or in an envelope. So there is different ways 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.360 they were making it really easy for you to give 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:45.240 money wor should you. The worship should only last twenty 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.240 minutes and I know this because as part of the 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.319 events team, I had to do a run sheet. If 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.760 they went over they could get in trouble with higher ups. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.440 For me, it felt like it was respectful of people's time. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:03.480 But now that I looked at it's very much of 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.199 production where it's meticulously done minute by minute and like 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:17.640 control to the second I worship you. How do you 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.480 transform a real into a church? It's the question that 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.080 a lot of people would ask. Uh. Someone would get 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:29.560 there at five am. Uh, there was already cleaners from 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.360 the venue who would be cleaning out because on Saturday nights, 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:38.160 obviously the club had been going and you know, people 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.200 were partying in there and drinking. Uh. So on Sunday 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.360 mornings around four or five o'clock in the morning, that'd 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.760 be people cleaning from the venue, and some people from 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.320 from Hillsong would show up, like from Target or like 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.840 a store. We would buy black sheets like bed sheets, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.280 and we would use those and cover up an a 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.760 t M with a black sheet and tape it with 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.000 UH with black tape, and so that way you couldn't 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.720 see as you were walking in. It blended into the 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.760 walls that were painted black. And they wanted to to 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.360 cover a t M s because they said they didn't 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.800 want to be uh money centered or for people to 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:21.880 feel like they had to like take up money and 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.920 take out cash. Um. They wanted to be a little 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.320 bit more subtle about that money aspect. And while they 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.080 were doing all of this, the venue was mopping cleaning 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.880 the bathrooms. But there was still that smell of alcohol 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.840 and sometimes the floors would be a little sticky and 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.320 as you're walking you can hear like the sticky shoes 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.920 like on the floor. Um. So it was really nasty 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.240 and like grungy, but you were doing church and as 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.280 a volunteer, it really felt fun because you interacted with 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.560 the other volunteers. Looking back, I'm like ill, like I 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.040 would never sit on any couch or chair at Royal 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:06.040 because it was disgusting. It's probably the reality of Hillsog 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.520 of they're sticky floors and there's grungy carpets everywhere. I 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.640 remember having to grab there's air fresheners. I would grab 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.000 two and I would start spraying them with my arms open, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.120 one on each arm, and I would just circle so 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.440 that we could get the air freshener to cover the 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.520 smell of alcohol and cigarette. I feel like the air 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:32.080 freshener is a metaphor for Hillsong's PR team because they're 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.920 constantly trying to cover for the mess and the drama 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.280 that's happening in the and all the accusations that are 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.480 coming out. And the PR team for Hillsong is definitely 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.960 the air freshener that is not doing a great job 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.160 because you could still see through it. And that's basically 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:52.960 what the air freshener was at Hillsog Boston. From my 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.720 own personal experience, I've seen how Hillsong handles people who 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:03.640 criticize them, um for like tweeting, to putting out statements, 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.440 to saying things on a Sunday service. But what is 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.800 that like for you as a journalist? Like, how do 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.760 they quote unquote attack you or try to discredit you? 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:15.840 Are you on the wall of shame? Do you know 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.840 if you're on the Hillsome Wall of shame? Um, I 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.159 don't know what that means. Can you tell me a 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:21.880 little bit more of that? So so you know how 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.600 they have security services at all of their at their services, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.080 They've got their own in house security team and the 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.879 head of security sits in with the TV monitoring and 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.959 they have pictures up of people who aren't allowed in. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:35.840 You know, it might just be some guy on the 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.439 street who's gone in and cause trouble before. But it 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.439 is often a lot of ex hill songers who might 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.840 have appeared in things, or people who have been told 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.520 to leave the church and aren't welcome back. So there 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.879 is apparently a wall of shame with pictures of troublemakers 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:52.679 and people who aren't welcome on the wall. So I 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.399 do wonder if you're on it. Probably here in in 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.240 Boston and in New York I could see that. I 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.240 can imagine. I'm just pointed that I don't think I'm 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.160 on it because when we were recording out in Sydney 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.720 a few months ago and got sprung by the Houstons 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.440 out the front of their house and then had to 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.800 go to church that evening, I was I was speaking. 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.720 I was really nervous that something was going to happen, 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.640 because I have a source who has worked high up 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.119 insecurity in Sydney and who told me the best entrance 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.320 to go through to avoid detection who might be looking 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.960 at me and when, and just sailed through the front door. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.680 But they certainly know who I am. I have sources 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.840 within quite high levels of the church who are still 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.680 there at the moment, who reached out to me, who 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.160 a broadly very anti Brian Houston. But I have had 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.800 some people within the church reach out to me to 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.280 put some other sides the story, but they haven't really 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.320 given me any grief. I haven't had any defamation threats 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.800 or anything like that, and I'm surprised that they've never 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.280 issued a threat. I mean, they detest the media, Brian, 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.040 even in the very early days. You know, there's recordings 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.359 of him saying that the media is always against us. 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.000 They've always been looked at very suspiciously in Australia. Part 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.320 of the movement to the US was, I think, you know, 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.720 part of being accepted and understood a lot more than 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.720 they were in Australia. From the very beginning. Australian media 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.879 and public in general were just very skeptical. We don't 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.159 really practice faith like that. We don't do the prosperity 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.199 Gospels stuff. There endless optimism, the music, the big global brand, 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.639 the big shiny services. The Australians were just always very 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.359 suspicious of that. You know, he's on record as saying 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.880 the media is only ever interested in the money. They 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.600 don't care about the good that we do. There are 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.520 some good people that work in city Care and things 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:42.840 like that. Who do do some good outreach and charity 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.240 work and things like that. But you can't have it 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.560 all one way. When you're turning over just obscene amounts 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.080 of money for a religious organization, people are going to 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.160 ask more questions. Yeah, I think there can. And I 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.399 like one point, you say that there's good people within, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.840 and I will never deny that there are good, genuine 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.560 people within. The system itself is shitty. The system itself 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.200 is not good, and that's what makes the difference. There 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:16.880 could be good people within a bad system. I am 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.200 Janice Legata. I like to say I was born in California, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.520 but born for New York. New York is is New York. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.119 And so if you hear something we need to do 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.800 something here, let me know, because I it's it's white 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.280 noise to me. Janice was there at the start of 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.600 Hill Song USA in New York City in twenty times. 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.240 She's a really big part of my story and a 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.640 powerful voice for some of the people who have left 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:47.399 the song. I am a writer, a fighter, and a 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:55.000 matron saint of cats. So no Emmy and I as 0:20:55.000 --> 0:21:00.560 of yet have not met in person, but I mean 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:06.200 I feel like I'm at least partially responsible for her 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:10.960 experience in the sense that I partially responsible for the existence, 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.720 maybe not the existence of Hillsong Boston, but definitely of 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:20.000 Josh Coimes being the pastor and the leader over there. 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.800 As you know, Josh Comes is someone I I've known 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.600 since two thousand five. He and I were at Hillsong 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.440 College at the same time. We're in the same little 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:39.200 morning chapel leadership group. You know, his story and mine. Honestly, 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.960 it's a it's a perfect encapsulation of the Hillsong experience. 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:49.960 Because Josh Comes is straight, white male, his trajectory from 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:55.359 Hillsong College was very different from mine, even though we 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.320 just ended up in a lot of the same places, 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:02.000 from the beginning all through Hillsong, New York, to where 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:06.760 he's on the platform, he's preaching, and I'm behind the 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.760 scenes ghostwriting, you know, the messages that he's giving and 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:16.120 doing a lot to improve his speaking um and make 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:19.840 him seem more charismatic than he actually is, to the 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:25.480 point where he ends up leading a campus, and you know, 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:33.919 I end up here. I wrote the words I physically 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:39.119 and and metaphorically. I was always setting the stage for 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:45.879 these men um and was always and always destined to 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.320 be behind the scenes as far as they were concerned. 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.359 And that also goes back to part of my my 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:59.840 penance and what I'm since I'm paying for is you 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:04.320 thinking I could help change things to make things more 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:09.120 diverse um and trying to teach Carl, help Carl along 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:15.160 with racial justice kind of issues, but ultimately just teaching him, 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:17.680 I think, how to trick the system and to make 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:22.000 things appear more diverse on the surface, and to you know, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.080 trick people into thinking this was a safe space for them. 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:30.200 Like I have one of my close friends who says, 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:32.520 you know, she came to the church and and saw 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:36.720 me on the platform, and I was like, oh, okay, 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.359 she's on She's on the platform. This must be a 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:44.200 safe space. And so it's funny because on this side 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.520 of things, we were the people they saw the least 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.440 amount of value in. Right, A lot of us are 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:53.320 speaking up partly because a lot of us are free 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:57.959 to because we were never given India's we were never paid. 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:01.520 They never saw the worth in us, never suspected that 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.080 we would say anything or than anyone would listen. And 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.120 so here we are the people women of color who 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:14.160 they least respected and least expected anything of and where 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:17.000 some of the loudest voices out here because we just 0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.360 saw so much because they never saw us, and they 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:23.479 just felt felt free to just be bad actors because 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:27.480 we were to them. I think just furniture, right. We 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.800 just did not register. Now they probably they probably don't 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:35.480 even regret it, probably just annoyed by it. Hillsong found 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.000 it pretty easy to ignore our voices, and when the 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:42.560 celebrities stopped coming, people forgot about their connection pretty quickly too. 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.679 The results of an inquiry into allegations of sexual and 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.240 financial misconducts at the New York City church were never 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.560 made public by Hillsong, but the trouble didn't go away. 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:58.560 Brian Houston resigned in March two after an investigation found 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:03.479 he behaved inappropriately towards two women, and then church has 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:06.280 started to break away from the Hillsong brand in Europe 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:11.040 and the US. The statement I'm gonna make is not easy. 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:13.320