1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: It really a lures you in. As a young adult, 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: I felt like a part of something for the first time. 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: This is false Prophets, the story of Hillsong. It's a 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: story of how a small church in Australia grew into 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: a mega church. It's a lesson in how to make 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: church cool and turn religion into a brand. It's a 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: lesson in power, money, and abuse. Thousands of people say 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Hillsong brought them to Jesus, but Hillsong brought me to 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: a very dark place. In this series, I've had access 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: to information Hillsong never wanted the public to see, and 11 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: access to people prepared to speak out false prophets. Dived 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: into a world of star preachers, and we investigate Hillsong's wealth. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: But most of all, these podcasts are about people who 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: believed in a church that said welcome home. I was 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: a part of Hillsong Church, but I left and now 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm telling my story. My name is no Emmy. My 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: last name is pronounced d bit. I'm twenty six years old. 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: I live in Boston, Massachusetts. The biggest things you need 19 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: to know are I was born in Arizona, moved to 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Mexico when I was eleven, years old, and I moved 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: back to the US when I was sixteen. When I 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: speak in Spanish, it's definitely my Mexican side comes out, 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: and that's the best way for me to describe it. 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: But it's more of a louder person that loves to 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: be dancing. And here's a small beat, even from a 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: car alarm, and I will start dancing to that. Behind me, 27 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Um is my dog, Teddy. He's like licking himself and 28 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: himself's nasty. He is my service dog and he will 29 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: be with us on the show. You might hear him 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Um a little bit as we're recording. Sorry, Eddy Eda. 31 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: So I adopted Teddy almost three years ago. Two and 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: a half years ago, right after I left Hill Song, 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: my therapist recommended me getting an emotional support animal. He 34 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: believed that would be really helpful to distract my brain 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: from thinking too much and going down spirals and focusing 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: on taking care of something. I'm a caregiver. I love 37 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: taking care of people, and so if I could take 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: care of an animal, that was like the best way possible. 39 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: And since I'm a dog person, I looked for a 40 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: dog and I found Teddy. He's a Shitsu mix eighteen pounds, 41 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: little bundle of joy. He's eleven years old, but he 42 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: can be quite the character. Sometimes there'll be moments ready 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: to simple way to make him stop. The one thing 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: I forgot is I have a squeaky chair. Can you 45 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: hear it now? And this is journalist Hardy getting the 46 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: inside story that Hillsong wasn't eager to tell. Should I 47 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: get something that isn't squeaky? L has close contacts at 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: the heart of the organization, and she'll be revealing a 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: lot of things that Hillsong would prefer didn't become public. 50 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: But first, here's what you need to know about Hillsong. 51 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: It started almost forty years ago in Australia. It's now 52 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: spread to more than thirty countries, and it turns over 53 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars. So I want to get 54 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: a better understanding of what your definition of Hillsong is 55 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: because I obviously have my own from my own experience, 56 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: but I want to hear from you. I think that 57 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: Hillsong is a lating light of the global Pentecostal movement. 58 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: Even though it now defines itself as nondenominational, it is 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: still part of this global Pentecostal movement, which is the 60 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: fastest growing religion in the world. There's about six hundred 61 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: million believe as worldwide and counting. And what Hillsong did 62 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: amazingly well was it sort of made itself the pop 63 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: culture arm of this movement. It made itself the lighter touch. 64 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: It made itself this big city place for for new 65 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: people that were arriving. You know, maybe you grew up 66 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: in a small town in Arizona, or maybe you grew 67 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: up somewhere overseas and you get to a big city 68 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: and you feel loss and a bit lonely and you 69 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: find this church and it's so welcoming and they played 70 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: this great music and everyone's young and cool and diverse 71 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: and all the things that you think about when you 72 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: moved to a big city and being a part of 73 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: that life. And that's what Hillsong did amazingly well. So 74 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: it was never blood and thunder, anti abortion, all that 75 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You were never really getting that on 76 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: the outside. And that's what Hillsong has done so well. 77 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: But I think for me, really, yeah, Hillsong is is 78 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: about the music. When you think about its money and 79 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: its cultural power. It was pioneering and packaging. Are this 80 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: really pop friendly music, grant that other churches around the 81 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: world but having to play to stop their congregations walking 82 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: out the door. That's so true for many people. We 83 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: know the music, and I know as a pastor's kid 84 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: from a traditional Pentecostal background, Hillsong felt very different to me, 85 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: But I didn't know much about the man who started 86 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: it all, Brian Houston, or Hillsong's history or theology. It 87 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: was just so popular and it was giving people something 88 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: in the here and now as well as the ever after, 89 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: and it was really showing the way that you could 90 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: be a Christian in the modern world. Thank you for 91 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: sharing that, because as someone who is from Arizona and 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: you gave that a little explanation. Um, I was coming 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: to a bigger city like Boston, hill Song was something 94 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: that was very inviting and welcoming into this big new 95 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: city experience, and I didn't hear a lot about that. 96 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: Like abortion or LGBTQ policies, or like different beliefs, they 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: are very mainstream with the other churches. So to hear 98 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: you say that is very validating, and I'm sure it's 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: validating for other folks listening as well. From my experience 100 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: and my perspective, I would see Hillsong as a dumpster 101 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: fire because it's burning from the inside. I tried staying 102 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: there longer to help change it as someone who was 103 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: a volunteer and a leader there, but through my own experience, 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: it just became too much and it would have taken 105 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: my life if I would have stayed a minute longer. 106 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: And now they've been doing their own chaos and setting 107 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: their own fires with their own pr Hillsong Church has 108 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: been accused of breaking Australian laws by sending money overseas 109 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: to avoid scrutiny. A whistleblower, Sue hill Song has alleged 110 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: to make a church moved millions of dollars through overseas 111 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: entity to avoid scrutinate for Australia's charity regulator has launched 112 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: an investigation into hills Church. Documents claim church leaders use 113 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: tax free money the large cash gifts to hill Songs 114 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: founder and his family. Hillsong founder Brian Houston denies concealing 115 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: child abuse. Mega church hit with sexual assault lawsuit by students. 116 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: Justin Bieber's pastor, Carl Lentz, fired for moral failures. Hillsong 117 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: shuts down Dallas campus following reports pastors misused funds. Hill 118 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: Songs Brian Houston resigns from megachurch after internal investigations found 119 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: he engaged in inappropriate conduct. That's a long list of scandals, 120 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: but the list of people you need to know is 121 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: actually really short. We mentioned Hillsong's founder and leader, Brian Houston. 122 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: He resigned in March of two. There's also his wife, Bobby, 123 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: and their kids. They all had key roles in the 124 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: family business, some of them still do. And another name 125 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: you'll hear about the star preacher Carl Lentz, famous for 126 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: hanging out with Justin Babel. He was sacked in twenties 127 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: twenty for what Hillsong called moral failings after he admitted 128 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: to cheating on his wife. Some inside is speculate carl 129 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: It's is downfall was actually orchestrated by the Hillsong leadership 130 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: itself and someone else who's in my story. Josh Comes 131 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: and his wife Leona. Josh was initially a part of 132 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: Hillsong New York and then became lead campus pastor in Boston. 133 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: The church i attended, Hillsong is a complex global network 134 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: of legal entities and trying to unravel them as tough, 135 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: but its message is simple. Everyone is welcome. But for me, 136 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: behind that message was the system I believe exploited me 137 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: as a volunteer, a system that didn't affirm me as 138 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: a queer person, and a church that left me feeling 139 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: spiritually abused. And I'm not the only one with the story. 140 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: This series is all about people like Megan Oludhara, Andrew, 141 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: Janice and Tiff. I was introduced by two friends that 142 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: I went to high school with, and they introduced men 143 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: a whole song and um that first day is the 144 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: date that I have tattooed on my collar bone. It 145 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: really alurres you in as a young adult. I felt 146 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: like a part of something for the first time. It 147 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: looked and felt different from the traditional church that I 148 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: grew up in at a bar Monday through Saturday, the 149 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: place that the church was held at at the time. 150 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: The first time I went Irvan Plaza. It's a bar, 151 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: it's a concert hall, it appears unconventional, but at the 152 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: court it's a Pentecostal church. I felt like I was 153 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: building God's church and I felt included and it felt 154 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: like a family. I get why Hillsong was such a 155 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: compelling proposition for that thirteen year old kid that walked 156 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: through those doors. I look back at my twenty year 157 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: old self, the brave one who, even in that intoxication 158 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: of hills Song, backed himself to leave. Even while we 159 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: were attending, I remember sometimes looking around and being like, 160 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: what the fund did I get myself into? On the 161 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: back end, looking at it's like manipulation, right, But at 162 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: that time it really felt special and it felt like 163 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: we were doing something awesome, and I felt like I 164 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: was welcoming people home like that was what we were 165 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. Hillsong is a major dumpster fire. 166 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: The one thing I don't miss about Hillsong is microaggressions. 167 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: I would like hill Song to stop existing, but even 168 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: more than that, I would like for it to account 169 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: for what it's done. It's really easy to get to 170 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: the point where you can say, oh, well, how did 171 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: you fall for that? That was easy to fall for. 172 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: I would never fall for something like that. But the 173 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: reality it is that we do every day. We fall 174 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: for a lot of things, and some things are worse 175 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: than others. And that's the feeling that I want you 176 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: to sit with, to be able to understand how evangelical 177 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: Christianity and honing it down to Hillsong itself can be dangerous, 178 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: and it was dangerous for a lot of us, and 179 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: we left, and we're here telling our stories. In this 180 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: series is all about getting answers from Hillsong. We each 181 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: have a different experience. Some people left recently, some years ago, 182 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: some people have talked to us on tape, and some anonymously. 183 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: But the thing we all fell for was a great cell. 184 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: For me, it was in a Boston nightclub which hosted 185 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: a gate club in its basement during the week that 186 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: turned out to be ironic. So you get to Royal, 187 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: it's a nightclub, and you get to the front door 188 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: and there is usually a line, a line out the door, 189 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: which is already feeling like concert vibe, like why are 190 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: there people waiting outside in the line of a church. 191 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: So the host team would often be talking to people 192 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: in the line, pending them water or some doughnut holes, 193 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: so different little things to just keep them interacting. And 194 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: they would have signs that said welcome home, you belong, 195 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to church. The second spot they would encounter would 196 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: be the welcome lounge, and then the welcome lounge. There 197 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: was like a merch table, so areas where you could 198 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: buy Brian and Bobby's book or a T shirt or 199 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: an album of either one of the bands. There was 200 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 1: like secular music sometimes playing, or sometimes they played Hillsong music. 201 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: So it's like they were trying to create this very 202 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: different vibe. We're not like every other church. They kind 203 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: of wanted to chill things down. You're led into the 204 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: main service area and it's dark here, and there's the 205 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: lights are dim, and there's lights that are on which 206 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: are like blue and purple and red, so very different 207 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: from your regular charge that just has all the lights on. 208 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: Then they would have a screen up in the front 209 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: of really big screen that would have announcements like how 210 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: to get connected to a connect group, how to give 211 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: for the service, and how to give your offering. You 212 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: could either text it, go on the app on the 213 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: Hillsong app, you can go online, or you can give 214 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: cash or in an envelope. So there is different ways 215 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: they were making it really easy for you to give 216 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: money wor should you. The worship should only last twenty 217 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: minutes and I know this because as part of the 218 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: events team, I had to do a run sheet. If 219 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: they went over they could get in trouble with higher ups. 220 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: For me, it felt like it was respectful of people's time. 221 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: But now that I looked at it's very much of 222 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: production where it's meticulously done minute by minute and like 223 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: control to the second I worship you. How do you 224 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: transform a real into a church? It's the question that 225 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people would ask. Uh. Someone would get 226 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: there at five am. Uh, there was already cleaners from 227 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: the venue who would be cleaning out because on Saturday nights, 228 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: obviously the club had been going and you know, people 229 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: were partying in there and drinking. Uh. So on Sunday 230 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: mornings around four or five o'clock in the morning, that'd 231 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: be people cleaning from the venue, and some people from 232 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: from Hillsong would show up, like from Target or like 233 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: a store. We would buy black sheets like bed sheets, 234 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: and we would use those and cover up an a 235 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: t M with a black sheet and tape it with 236 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: UH with black tape, and so that way you couldn't 237 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: see as you were walking in. It blended into the 238 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: walls that were painted black. And they wanted to to 239 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: cover a t M s because they said they didn't 240 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: want to be uh money centered or for people to 241 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: feel like they had to like take up money and 242 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: take out cash. Um. They wanted to be a little 243 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: bit more subtle about that money aspect. And while they 244 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: were doing all of this, the venue was mopping cleaning 245 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: the bathrooms. But there was still that smell of alcohol 246 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes the floors would be a little sticky and 247 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: as you're walking you can hear like the sticky shoes 248 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: like on the floor. Um. So it was really nasty 249 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: and like grungy, but you were doing church and as 250 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: a volunteer, it really felt fun because you interacted with 251 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: the other volunteers. Looking back, I'm like ill, like I 252 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: would never sit on any couch or chair at Royal 253 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: because it was disgusting. It's probably the reality of Hillsog 254 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: of they're sticky floors and there's grungy carpets everywhere. I 255 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: remember having to grab there's air fresheners. I would grab 256 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: two and I would start spraying them with my arms open, 257 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: one on each arm, and I would just circle so 258 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: that we could get the air freshener to cover the 259 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: smell of alcohol and cigarette. I feel like the air 260 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: freshener is a metaphor for Hillsong's PR team because they're 261 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: constantly trying to cover for the mess and the drama 262 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: that's happening in the and all the accusations that are 263 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: coming out. And the PR team for Hillsong is definitely 264 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: the air freshener that is not doing a great job 265 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: because you could still see through it. And that's basically 266 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: what the air freshener was at Hillsog Boston. From my 267 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: own personal experience, I've seen how Hillsong handles people who 268 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: criticize them, um for like tweeting, to putting out statements, 269 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: to saying things on a Sunday service. But what is 270 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: that like for you as a journalist? Like, how do 271 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: they quote unquote attack you or try to discredit you? 272 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: Are you on the wall of shame? Do you know 273 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: if you're on the Hillsome Wall of shame? Um, I 274 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: don't know what that means. Can you tell me a 275 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: little bit more of that? So so you know how 276 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: they have security services at all of their at their services, 277 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: They've got their own in house security team and the 278 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: head of security sits in with the TV monitoring and 279 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: they have pictures up of people who aren't allowed in. 280 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: You know, it might just be some guy on the 281 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: street who's gone in and cause trouble before. But it 282 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: is often a lot of ex hill songers who might 283 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: have appeared in things, or people who have been told 284 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: to leave the church and aren't welcome back. So there 285 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: is apparently a wall of shame with pictures of troublemakers 286 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: and people who aren't welcome on the wall. So I 287 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: do wonder if you're on it. Probably here in in 288 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: Boston and in New York I could see that. I 289 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: can imagine. I'm just pointed that I don't think I'm 290 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: on it because when we were recording out in Sydney 291 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: a few months ago and got sprung by the Houstons 292 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: out the front of their house and then had to 293 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: go to church that evening, I was I was speaking. 294 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: I was really nervous that something was going to happen, 295 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: because I have a source who has worked high up 296 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: insecurity in Sydney and who told me the best entrance 297 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: to go through to avoid detection who might be looking 298 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: at me and when, and just sailed through the front door. 299 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: But they certainly know who I am. I have sources 300 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: within quite high levels of the church who are still 301 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: there at the moment, who reached out to me, who 302 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: a broadly very anti Brian Houston. But I have had 303 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: some people within the church reach out to me to 304 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: put some other sides the story, but they haven't really 305 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: given me any grief. I haven't had any defamation threats 306 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: or anything like that, and I'm surprised that they've never 307 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: issued a threat. I mean, they detest the media, Brian, 308 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: even in the very early days. You know, there's recordings 309 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: of him saying that the media is always against us. 310 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: They've always been looked at very suspiciously in Australia. Part 311 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: of the movement to the US was, I think, you know, 312 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: part of being accepted and understood a lot more than 313 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: they were in Australia. From the very beginning. Australian media 314 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and public in general were just very skeptical. We don't 315 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: really practice faith like that. We don't do the prosperity 316 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: Gospels stuff. There endless optimism, the music, the big global brand, 317 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: the big shiny services. The Australians were just always very 318 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: suspicious of that. You know, he's on record as saying 319 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: the media is only ever interested in the money. They 320 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: don't care about the good that we do. There are 321 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: some good people that work in city Care and things 322 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: like that. Who do do some good outreach and charity 323 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: work and things like that. But you can't have it 324 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: all one way. When you're turning over just obscene amounts 325 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: of money for a religious organization, people are going to 326 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: ask more questions. Yeah, I think there can. And I 327 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: like one point, you say that there's good people within, 328 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: and I will never deny that there are good, genuine 329 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: people within. The system itself is shitty. The system itself 330 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: is not good, and that's what makes the difference. There 331 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: could be good people within a bad system. I am 332 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: Janice Legata. I like to say I was born in California, 333 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: but born for New York. New York is is New York. 334 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: And so if you hear something we need to do 335 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: something here, let me know, because I it's it's white 336 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: noise to me. Janice was there at the start of 337 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: Hill Song USA in New York City in twenty times. 338 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: She's a really big part of my story and a 339 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: powerful voice for some of the people who have left 340 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: the song. I am a writer, a fighter, and a 341 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: matron saint of cats. So no Emmy and I as 342 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: of yet have not met in person, but I mean 343 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm at least partially responsible for her 344 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: experience in the sense that I partially responsible for the existence, 345 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: maybe not the existence of Hillsong Boston, but definitely of 346 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: Josh Coimes being the pastor and the leader over there. 347 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: As you know, Josh Comes is someone I I've known 348 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: since two thousand five. He and I were at Hillsong 349 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: College at the same time. We're in the same little 350 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: morning chapel leadership group. You know, his story and mine. Honestly, 351 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: it's a it's a perfect encapsulation of the Hillsong experience. 352 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: Because Josh Comes is straight, white male, his trajectory from 353 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: Hillsong College was very different from mine, even though we 354 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: just ended up in a lot of the same places, 355 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: from the beginning all through Hillsong, New York, to where 356 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: he's on the platform, he's preaching, and I'm behind the 357 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: scenes ghostwriting, you know, the messages that he's giving and 358 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: doing a lot to improve his speaking um and make 359 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: him seem more charismatic than he actually is, to the 360 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: point where he ends up leading a campus, and you know, 361 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: I end up here. I wrote the words I physically 362 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: and and metaphorically. I was always setting the stage for 363 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: these men um and was always and always destined to 364 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: be behind the scenes as far as they were concerned. 365 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: And that also goes back to part of my my 366 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: penance and what I'm since I'm paying for is you 367 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: thinking I could help change things to make things more 368 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: diverse um and trying to teach Carl, help Carl along 369 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: with racial justice kind of issues, but ultimately just teaching him, 370 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: I think, how to trick the system and to make 371 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: things appear more diverse on the surface, and to you know, 372 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: trick people into thinking this was a safe space for them. 373 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: Like I have one of my close friends who says, 374 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, she came to the church and and saw 375 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: me on the platform, and I was like, oh, okay, 376 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: she's on She's on the platform. This must be a 377 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: safe space. And so it's funny because on this side 378 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: of things, we were the people they saw the least 379 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: amount of value in. Right, A lot of us are 380 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: speaking up partly because a lot of us are free 381 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 1: to because we were never given India's we were never paid. 382 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: They never saw the worth in us, never suspected that 383 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: we would say anything or than anyone would listen. And 384 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: so here we are the people women of color who 385 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: they least respected and least expected anything of and where 386 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: some of the loudest voices out here because we just 387 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: saw so much because they never saw us, and they 388 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: just felt felt free to just be bad actors because 389 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: we were to them. I think just furniture, right. We 390 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: just did not register. Now they probably they probably don't 391 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: even regret it, probably just annoyed by it. Hillsong found 392 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: it pretty easy to ignore our voices, and when the 393 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: celebrities stopped coming, people forgot about their connection pretty quickly too. 394 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: The results of an inquiry into allegations of sexual and 395 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: financial misconducts at the New York City church were never 396 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: made public by Hillsong, but the trouble didn't go away. 397 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: Brian Houston resigned in March two after an investigation found 398 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 1: he behaved inappropriately towards two women, and then church has 399 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: started to break away from the Hillsong brand in Europe 400 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: and the US. The statement I'm gonna make is not easy. 401 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: This past week, we were all saddened to hear of 402 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Pastor Bryan's resignation. I know you feel the weight of that, 403 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: as do I. His continuation as our senior pastor was 404 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: not tenable and Unfortunately, there's been a lot of disagreement 405 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: around that across our world, including as some of you 406 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: will have read by now, within our own board and 407 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: within our own eldership. And I'm not breaking that news. 408 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: It's out there. I'm just trying to summon the courage 409 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: to face it that it has become clear that we 410 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: cannot continue in our global family as much as we 411 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: love it, and so we have chosen this week to 412 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: withdraw from being Hillsong Church. This is Terry Cree is 413 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: breaking the news to his congregation at Hillsong Phoenix. I've 414 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: spoken to him about his decision, and I think it's 415 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: worth hearing some more of what he said, because it's 416 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: very revealing. First, why are we taking this action over 417 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: the past year, following the sin that was exposed and 418 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Hillsong Church, New York City and the subsequent investigation that 419 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: was conducted into sexual misconduct and into financial misappropriation. I 420 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: encourage the results of that report to be made in 421 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: some general form. I understand the sensitivity of that. I 422 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: asked that the report be redacted so names could be protected. 423 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: I asked that the report be synopsized so that we 424 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: could embrace accountability and transparency, and for whatever reason that 425 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: requests was denied. As information began to leak out as 426 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 1: to what was in the report, and as the Global 427 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: Board made the decision to increase financial controls within the churches, 428 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: lead pastors were suddenly asked to sign in d a's 429 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: and non competes. Some of us couldn't do that in 430 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 1: good conscience, and this has played out in recent weeks. 431 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: It came down in recent weeks to the demand that 432 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: we sign non disclosure agreements and non competes, meaning that 433 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: if we were removed from our positions, we could not 434 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: plant churches again within our community for at least one year. 435 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: Last Saturday, after months of trying to gain approval to 436 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: reseat our local board, we formally requested the release of 437 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: our church back to us. Sadly, the board refused our 438 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: request and I was told this past week it is 439 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: quote all or nothing close quote. We either had to 440 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: allow the Global Board to govern our church and to 441 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: own our properties, or we had to leave, And so 442 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: with great sadness, I chose to leave. Our hearts are 443 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: broken for anyone who has been victimized by anyone anywhere, 444 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: for any reason, in Hillsong Church or College. That's interesting 445 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 1: to listen to because for years many of us were 446 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: speaking out and we were ignored or branded as troublemakers. 447 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: We asked for transparency and we got none. It's also 448 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: interesting to pick up on that point about nondisclosure agreements. 449 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: That's something that comes up in our investigation, not just 450 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: among the people in powerful positions like Terry Chris, but 451 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: with members of staff and even volunteers. And the report 452 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: Terry Chris talked about into the goings on at Hillsong, 453 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: New York City, well, we're going to hear a lot 454 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: more about that, which kind of brings me back to 455 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: the point of the series we're making. For me, it's 456 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: three things to help you understand what happened to people 457 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: at Hillsong, to keep shining a spotlight on it, and 458 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: to try and change a system. But that's a big one. 459 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 1: There's something much bigger than just this particular institution. In 460 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: my opinion, it has everything to do with modern Christendom, 461 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: especially within the evangelical world. There's something really rotten at 462 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: the core within evangelicalism. This is Boss to Fichen. He's 463 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: a lawyer who represents victims of church abuse. He has 464 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: professional experience with Hillsong, and he's also a grandson of 465 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: the famous preacher Billy Graham. The only thing that I 466 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: know that can bring accountability to institutions, including hill Song, 467 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: is constant exposure and bringing darkness to light. And ultimately, 468 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: these institutional leaders are going to have to decide whether 469 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: or not their very existence depends upon whether they make 470 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: the changes that are needed and to be held accountable 471 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: for past conduct. And so I don't know. With Hillsong, 472 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: I think it's a little too early to make that determination. 473 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: But my personal observations and opinion is that what I've 474 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: seen so far is more of a focus on institutional 475 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: protection and not a genuine sense of repentance and grieving 476 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: over what has been done and the harm that has 477 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: been perpetrated on so many. I think they would prefer, 478 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: like many institutions, to try to move beyond this sooner 479 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: rather than later. I'm a big believer that you cannot 480 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: move forward, truly move forward, genuinely move forward as a 481 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: ministry organization until you have fully addressed the past, So 482 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: being truthful about what's happened, demonstrating authentic repentance through actions 483 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: and statements, and then taking steps to change the culture 484 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: and institutional framework of the organization to minimize that type 485 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: of stuff from ever happening again. And sometimes that requires 486 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: leaders to give up power, and people don't like to 487 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: give up power, whether they're inside the church or outside 488 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: the church. Which is very interesting to me because if 489 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: you look at the person that Hillsong and other churches 490 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: follow is Jesus, and Jesus is probably the most powerful 491 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: and beautiful example of one who had unfathomable power and 492 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: who gave up that power. They like to preach it, 493 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: but they don't like to follow in those footsteps, being 494 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: willing to give up power for the benefit of the individual. 495 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: And I have not seen that in Hillsong, and I 496 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: haven't seen it in in most institutions that I have 497 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: addressed in my career. I'm an optimistic person. I think 498 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: there can be answers, I think there can be accountability, 499 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: and as Boss says, it's all about bringing light into 500 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: the darkness constant exposure. In the next episode, we dive 501 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: into the toxic world of Hillsong, New York. We're going 502 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: to hear allegations of abuse, exploitation, even rape. These are 503 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 1: the details Hillsong never wanted to shine a light on 504 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: and when you shine a light on something, it's what 505 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: stays in the shadows. That's the scariest thing of all. 506 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: But I'll find someone is eager for the truth to 507 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: come out. The reports that landed in my inbox give 508 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: us incredible insight into Hillsong. This was the church trying 509 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: to get out in front of the problems that were 510 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: made by their own culture. It was never supposed to 511 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: come to light to us, but clearly there are people 512 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: internally who have just had enough, who realized how rotten 513 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the culture is at Hillsong and who wanted this release. 514 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: Even their own lawyers are saying, you guys have got 515 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to get control of this, because you're in big trouble. 516 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: Two