1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. Quick disclaimer before we begin today's interview segment, 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: we are having a frank and candid discussion with Jason Flum. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: As such, this conversation may contain strong language, as well 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: as graphic depictions of crime and injustice that may not 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: be suitable for all viewers. From UFOs to psychic powers 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: can turn back now or learn this stuff they don't 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 2: my name is Noel. 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: superproducer Alexis code named Doc Holliday Jackson. Most importantly, you 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this the 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Recently, we had 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: an incredibly powerful live podcast conversation with a cavalcade of 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: top notch talent from our friends Lava for Good. And 17 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: in this conversation, which folks you'll hear very soon hopefully, 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: we discuss with policy experts a vast range of issues 19 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: surrounding criminal justice, reform, the legal system, the war on drugs, 20 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: much much more so much in fact that we weren't 21 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: able to get to most of the stuff we wanted 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: to get to, so we knew we had to have 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: our guests back on and we're starting that today with 24 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: none other than the creator of Wrongful Conviction, the one 25 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: and only Jason Flam Jason, Welcome to the show Man. 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here. I've been counting the minutes. 28 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 3: I'm not being facetious by the way. I was walking 29 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 3: my dog this morning and thinking about how excited I 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: was to do this, thinking about things we could talk about, 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 3: because I'm still buzzing with positive energy from the event 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: last week. 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, saying we're excited as well. 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: That's awesome to hear. And thank you seriously for joining 35 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: us here because we talk about a lot of things 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: in our earlier conversation that may not occur to most 37 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: people on a day to day basis. And let's start 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: with some background about you. We're preparing your bio doing 39 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: some research here, Jason. It's kind of tricky to put 40 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: your experience in one one box. You know, people might 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: not know that you're the founder of Lava Records. Before that, 42 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: you were the chairman of Atlantic Records and Virgin Records, 43 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: Slash Capital Music Group and god yeah, the accolades alone. 44 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: You can't hold the job. I guess. 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Most people would have stopped at one if. 46 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 4: You need a couple of buckets for this. 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 5: And you know, we really did kind of build this career, 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 5: you know, this life and music and beyond the parts 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 5: we're going to talk about today, kind of from from 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 5: the bottom. 51 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 4: You know, we understand that you were kind of part 52 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 4: of I guess. 53 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 5: What you would call maybe like early iteration of street teams, 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 5: kind of hanging up posters for promoting shows as part 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 5: of yeah, exactly Atlantic's field merchandising team, which now would 56 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 5: be more you know, commonly referred to as a street 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 5: team or like a PR team. 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was you know, when I was eighteen, 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: I was super lucky to get a job as a 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: trainee field merchandiser, which meant I wandered around record stores 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: in Manhattan. There used to be record stores all over 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: the place. Right Now there's just vinyl stores, you know, 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: in the hip or neighborhoods of town. Right. But so 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: my job was to go and I'd climb around at ladders. 65 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: Was a double sided tape and a staple gun, usually 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: high on weed and hang up led Zeppelin posters and 67 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: Sister Sledge and chic and rolling Stones, and it was 68 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: just like I thought, it was the greatest job in 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: the world. Four dollars an hour, free records. I was like, 70 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 3: this is a dream. And so I fell in love 71 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: with the music business. And then I remembered the words 72 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: of my dad, who was my hero and my mentor, 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: and he had said to my brother and I, do 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: whatever you want to do, try to be the best 75 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: at it. It just make the world a better place. And 76 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: so I realized I was never going to be the 77 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: best guitar player, but maybe I could be the best 78 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 3: at helping other people become great at their musical crafts 79 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 3: and make other help make other people rock stars and 80 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 3: help them live out their dreams, and I could live 81 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 3: vicars through them. So that's when I had this sort 82 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 3: of my first shift, right. 83 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: And I like that, say it's your first shift there, 84 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: because while you were pioneering sort of the bleeded edge 85 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: of the music industry, you had another calling. And that's 86 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: that's part of what we want to explore with you today. 87 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: In the early nineties, in nineteen ninety three, you joined 88 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: something that was newly formed at the time, an outfit 89 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: called Families Against Mandatory Minimums. They had just been around, 90 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: from what I understand, for a couple of years, formed 91 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one. And we're wondering, I guess me 92 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: start there. What inspired this path, this advocacy and activism. 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 3: It all started in the most serendipitous way, which was 94 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: that I just happened to pick up a newspaper one 95 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: day and saw an article, and randomly it was a 96 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: New York Post, which I never buy and no one 97 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 3: should ever buy it. But the fact is The Times 98 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: was sold out this particular day. I bought the Post, 99 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 3: and I was meant to because it was an article 100 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: about a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving fifteenth 101 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: to life for a non violent first offense cocaine possession 102 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: charge in a maximum security prison in New York State. 103 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: And yes, you heard me correctly, nonviolent first defense cocaine 104 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 3: possession charge, fifteen to life, and his mother had been 105 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 3: trying to get clemency from the governor, Governor Mario Cuomo, 106 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: and had been turned down, even though she had gotten 107 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: support from some unlikely sources. And that in a nutshell, 108 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: is why I was in the newspaper. And so I 109 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 3: read this and I was like, what in the actual 110 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 3: fuck am I reading right now? Right? Because I didn't 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 3: know anything about mandatory sensing or drug laws. I had 112 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: had my own, you know, problems with substance abuse. I 113 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 3: was a pothead, but then I got into cocaine and 114 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 3: ended up in rehab when I was twenty six. So 115 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: as it happened, he was thirty two, I was thirty two. 116 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: He had been in prison for eight years. I'd been 117 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: sober for about seven. There were just too many parallels, 118 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm an atheist, but there before 119 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 3: the grace of lowercase God, go I right, And I 120 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: was like this, this is really bothering me. I have 121 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: to try to do something about it. And I only 122 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: knew one criminal defense layer at the time, but his 123 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 3: name was Bob Clean. He represented two artiicided signs Stone 124 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 3: Double Pilots and skid Row and you know, yeah fist 125 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 3: in the airs, yeah, And so I had them on 126 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 3: speed Dog because those guys were getting arrested like weekly. 127 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 3: So I was like, Bob, what could be done? He goes, 128 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: There's nothing you can do. It's the Rockefeller drug laws. 129 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: You know, I said, look, do me a favorite. By 130 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 3: now I had called the mother on the phone. Her 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: name was in the newspaper article, Shirley Lennon in Rome, 132 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: New York. And so you know, I'd trying to figureut 133 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: what I could do to help, and Bob, as a favorite, 134 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 3: offered to talk to her. He talked to her, he 135 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 3: read the transcripts of the trial. He offered to take 136 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: the case pro bono as a favorite to me and 137 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: her and her son. And six months later we ended 138 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 3: up in a courtroom in Malone, New York, up by 139 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 3: the Canadian border, and there was this old judge with 140 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: white hair, and I thought it looked like Ted Forsyth, 141 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: if you guys remember him and the actor. And I 142 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: was like, this guy's never going to rule in our favorite. 143 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: I knew nothing. I had a mullet and purple Doc 144 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: Martin's on. That's what the type of character I was, 145 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: and you know, thirty years ago. But the judge, the 146 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: arguments go back and forth, and the judge bangs that 147 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: gabbled down. I probably just deafened your audience and said 148 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: the motion is granted. And Bob comes sort of running 149 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: over in a suit and I was like, bow, what 150 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: just happened? And he goes, we won, And I was 151 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: like whoa, whoa what? And he goes we won. I 152 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 3: was like, fuck, that's amazing. And so at that moment 153 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: everything changed for me. You know. I realized that I 154 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 3: had this superpower and if I had it, I was 155 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: damn sure going to use it. And that led to 156 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: reading an article in Rolling Stone magazine, which was an 157 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: article about the dea busts of dead Heads that was 158 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 3: going on in those days, where they were posing as 159 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 3: dead Heads and going to these concerts. And I've never 160 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: been a grateful dead fan. It's not my kind of music. 161 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 3: Who cares, doesn't matter, the fact is they were going 162 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: to these concerts posing as dead Heads, buying a little 163 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: bit of acid from these kids, and then busting them 164 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 3: and putting them in prison for ten years or more. 165 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: This organization, Families Against Mandatory Minims, was mentioned in the article. 166 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: I called up the founder, Julie Stewart. I said, I'll, 167 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: I want to help. I became the first board member 168 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: there and I'm still on their board to this day 169 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 3: and they still do great work to this day. 170 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 5: You mentioned the idea of the Rockefeller drug laws and 171 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 5: mandatory minimums. 172 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 4: Can you just talk a little bit about that. 173 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 5: And kind of what that meant, you know, for the 174 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 5: need for this kind of advocacy. 175 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a good question, all because you know, the 176 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: war on drugs has had so many terrible and probably 177 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: predictable outcomes. Right, it never was a war on drugs. 178 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 3: It was a war on people. Nixon wanted a war 179 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: against hippies and black people, but he couldn't call it that, 180 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 3: so he cleverly marketed it as a war on drugs. 181 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 3: And the Rockefeller drug laws weren't you know, an offshoot 182 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: of that or a you know, a part of that. 183 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: The New York state law that was passed by Governor 184 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: Nelson Rockefeller named after him, and these politicians were all 185 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 3: rushing to make tougher and tougher laws in order to 186 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: win elections because they found this to be an effective 187 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: strategy and so tough on crime, right, which is really 188 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: just tough on people, and so these in this rush, 189 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 3: which was not based on any science or anything that 190 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: would actually benefit public safety, but rather it was just 191 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: pandering to get votes, which sadly it did. New York 192 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 3: passed some of the toughest drug laws in the country. 193 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: Seems counterintuitive. I think most people don't think of New 194 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: York as a state like that. But these laws were 195 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 3: as bad as any in the Deep South, I would say, 196 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: and as a result, you had these terrible cases where 197 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: people would be caught on a first defense like this kid, 198 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: Stephen Lennon was, and possession of four ounces or more 199 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: of cocaine or sale of two ounces or more was 200 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 3: treated as an A one felony, which is the same 201 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 3: as murder, which you know, I have to pause there 202 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: for a second and go, yeah, So so he was 203 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 3: caught up in that, and you know, he had had 204 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 3: four point two ounces of coke and it's like, you know, 205 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: the people don't know, they don't know these laws, and 206 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: so literally like two grams put him over the edge. 207 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: And you know, it's not an uncommon story. Sadly, like 208 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 3: Bob said, like the attorney said to me, were thousands 209 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 3: of people in prison serving time on cases similar to his, 210 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: and a lot of them were people who were just 211 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: set up by other people, right who like my friend 212 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: Anthony Poppa, you know, who was a guy who was 213 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: had never been in trouble but was struggling to pay 214 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: his rent, had all sorts of problems, that car broke, 215 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: all this other stuff, and some guy this bowling league 216 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 3: was like, hey man, you know like you want to 217 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 3: do a Joel. You got to do is take this 218 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 3: get on a bus and you know, take it over there. 219 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: You make fifteen whatever you told him, Right, So he 220 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 3: didn't know anything, and there was a sting operation because 221 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: the other guy had gotten busted and his only way 222 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 3: out was to bust somebody else. And so a lot 223 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 3: of it is like a lot of it is actually 224 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: creating crime where there was none, right, and your crime 225 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: we call him a crime. I mean, look, I don't 226 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 3: I think drugs should be taxed and regulated and treated 227 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: like other substances like alcohol and tobacco. But it was 228 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: a crime, but it was a crime that was never 229 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 3: intended to have happened in the first place. In Anthony's case, 230 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: and he got fifteen to life as well. 231 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 2: Well, I've got a question there in Stephen Lennon's that's 232 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: the first case we were talking about, right, the one that 233 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: you got involved with. Okay, so Stephen was convicted of 234 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: a crime and was in jail when you encountered him. 235 00:11:58,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 2: That's when the story was. 236 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 3: Written exactly right. Yeah, he was had been in for 237 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: eight years. He was at Dana Moor, the same prison 238 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 3: where Son of Sam was being held. He told me 239 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: he actually met Son of Sam the first day he 240 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: was there. 241 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: He met Witz. 242 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he was with the guy who brought 243 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 3: around the hot water for your you know, tea or coffee. 244 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: And I was like, I wouldn't be giving that gun that. 245 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: But so when he's in jail, you encounter him, you're 246 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: able to get in front of this judge to argue 247 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: that he shouldn't be in prison right for that long? 248 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: What is his status after that actions taken in the courtroom, 249 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: Like he's a convict, and what's his status after whatever 250 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: action is taken in that courtroom. 251 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: That's a good question, Matt. So what happened was the 252 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: judge on this novel approach that this attorney had concocted 253 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: right and basically in layman's terms. And I was certainly 254 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: a layman and I still am. I'm not an attorney 255 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: most people think I am. But so what happened was 256 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: Stephen had been in a car and had a friend 257 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: of his he had given a ride to and they 258 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: stopped on the side of the road and one of 259 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: them had gotten out to take a leak, and a 260 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: cop saw them, turned them, you know, approach to search 261 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: the car found four point two ounces of coke under 262 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: one of the seats. Both of them said, it's not mine. Well, 263 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: when you say it's not yours, that means it belongs 264 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: to everyone in the car. There could have been fifteen 265 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: people in the car. Each of them would have been 266 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: charged with the full amount unless somebody takes ownership of it, 267 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: which nobody does. So good to be aware of that, 268 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 3: by the way, for people who are listening who might 269 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 3: be thinking they'd take a ride, but don't do it. 270 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 3: So anyway, both kids had been convicted, and since the 271 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: fifteenth to life, Steven had written letters after he was 272 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 3: convicted saying, look, it wasn't the other guy, It was me. 273 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: You know, I just gave gave him a ride. It 274 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: was too late by then, right if he had said 275 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: that before the trial, But who's going to say that 276 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: before the trial, then you're going to be basically meaning 277 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: your own guilt. So at some point the other kid, 278 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: as I recall, had been I don't remember his name, 279 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 3: had been allowed to plee down to an A two felony, 280 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: which is a possession of two to four ounces and 281 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 3: had been released after eight years. So Bob's approach was 282 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: to say, well, how could my client be guilty of 283 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 3: a different crime than the other guy when they were 284 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 3: both convicted of this? Just something along those lines, right, 285 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 3: So he told me it wasn't gonna work, and that 286 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: it was a you know, it's not a you know, 287 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: it wasn't a perfect argument. But we found, you know, 288 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: maybe the judge was in a good mood that day. 289 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: Maybe you know who knows right. They're people too right, 290 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: they're subjective to a certain degree, and in that little window, 291 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: the judge found, you know, a reason to free Stephen. 292 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: So he allowed him to plee down to an A 293 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,359 Speaker 3: two felony, which meant that he had already served effectively. 294 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 3: I think it was three to eight. It was how 295 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: much you could get for an A two. So he'd 296 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: already served nine years by this point, and so he 297 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 3: was freed. It took another few weeks for him to 298 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: be processed out, but he came home shortly there after. 299 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: He came down to New York. We went out for lunch, 300 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: and he's done importantly by the way he's done really 301 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: well in life. You know, he started a successful business, 302 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: he's raised a family, and it's kind of great. I 303 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 3: got a letter. I got to share this story. Five 304 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: or six months after he came home. I got a 305 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: letter in the mail from somebody in Cincinnati. I don't 306 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: know anybody in Cincinnati. I've never been to Cincinnati. And 307 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 3: the letter I open it up, it's from a woman 308 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: named Joanne Paris. I don't know who Joanne Paris is. 309 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: And it says, dear Jason, you don't know me, but 310 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 3: you got me pregnant. I'm like, whoa exactly? I was like, WHOA, Hey, 311 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 3: how do I return this letter? So I went on 312 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: to say, for the last five years, my husband and 313 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: I have been trying to conceive, and you know, the 314 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: doctor told me the stress of my brother's incarceration was 315 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: preventing me from being able to get pregnant. My brother, 316 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: Stephen Lennon, I'm pregnant now and just want to let 317 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: me know and thank you and whatever. I have the 318 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: letter somewhere. It was really, you know, it was just 319 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 3: another beautiful sort of outcome. So you know, these things 320 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: are it doesn't just happen to one person right. It 321 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: happens to the family, It happens to the loved ones 322 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: when you when you wrongfully put somebody in prison. The 323 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: ripple effect is it's felt, you know, by a large 324 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: group of people in most cases. 325 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: And let's pick up there, because you said, you said 326 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: the word wrongful. Unfortunately, as as amazing as as Stephen's 327 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: story is, we have to admit that it is by 328 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: and large anomalous in the overall the overall landscape of 329 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: the American legal system. Your show Wrongful Conviction dives deep 330 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: into multiple, multiple egregious instances of people who have who 331 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: have been failed by the justice system. Could you, in 332 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: your own words, tell us a little bit about wrongful 333 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: conviction and maybe some of the notable cases that inspired you. 334 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: I divinized you, I should say. 335 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 3: Oh, hell yeah. So Wrongful Conviction is a show I 336 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 3: started in twenty sixteen. I've been with the Innocence Project. 337 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 3: I was the first board member there, so they called 338 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 3: me the founding board member, not the founder. The founders 339 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: are Barry Shek and Peter Nufelds. I want to make 340 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: that clear. But I've been with the n this is 341 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: project now for twenty seven years or something like that. 342 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: And I'm so inspired by the work that we do 343 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: and that the lawyers there due and that the incredible 344 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 3: pro bono attorneys do around the country to help these 345 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted and actually edison people. And I became really 346 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: drawn to the people themselves right as I got to 347 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 3: know a large number of exoneries. Often I would meet 348 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 3: them as soon as they came home, and they're as 349 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: a group, some of the most extraordinary people that you 350 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 3: could ever meet. These are people who have been through 351 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 3: literal hell, because our prison system is hell, and come 352 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: out with optimism, with gratitude, even with grace, you could say, right, 353 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 3: And none of them want to look backwards. They're not bitter, 354 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 3: and they're like, you know, you just I draw so 355 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 3: much inspiration from being around these magical beings who went 356 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 3: through hell and came out carrying buckets of water to 357 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 3: help other people, put other fires out for other people, right, 358 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: And I'm like, who are you, dude? Like how is 359 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: this possible? Or you know, many of them are women too. 360 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 3: You know, of course women get wrongly convicted as well. 361 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 3: And I thought, if we can tell these stories, or 362 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 3: I can help these individuals to share their stories and 363 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: create a platform where they can speak to, you know, 364 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand people a week, which is about the 365 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 3: number of people that we reach with each episode, then 366 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: we can help to change hearts and minds and ultimately 367 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 3: shift policies and make the system a little fairer and 368 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: better for everyone. Because ultimately, we can sit here and 369 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 3: talk about statistics, and I can rattle off statistics for 370 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: your audience all day long that are mind blowing, but 371 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 3: they're statistics. But when you hear the story of Michelle 372 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 3: Murphy right, who was seventeen years old, single mother of 373 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 3: two kids in Oklahoma and woke up one morning with 374 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 3: a big lump on her head and an ache in 375 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 3: her leg, and her baby was gone, and she's stumbling 376 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: around looking for her little one fifteen weeks he was 377 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 3: fifteen weeks old at the time, and found him in 378 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: the kitchen in a pool of blood and he had 379 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: been effectively decapitated, and you know, calls the cops. Of course, 380 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: they proceed to interrogate her for nine hours, without an attorney, 381 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 3: without a parent. I don't think her parents would have 382 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 3: been much good, because it was a pretty dysfunctional family, 383 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 3: but I know there would have been much help. Then 384 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: they claim she confessed, although it's dubious as to whether 385 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,719 Speaker 3: she ever said anything. I think that they got her 386 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: to finally say because they told her if you don't, 387 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 3: if you don't say something, we're never letting you out 388 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 3: of here, and you're never going to see your other 389 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: kid again. And so she said, well, maybe I you know, 390 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 3: dropped the scissors or something like that, which of course 391 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 3: was a ridiculous idea. Right, the kid was decapitated, the 392 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: baby was. You know, it's sorry to share this disgusting detail, 393 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: but it is what it is. And she never saw 394 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: the light of day again. I mean, she was sentenced 395 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: to life in prison. And you know, everyone knew from 396 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 3: day one that it was the next door neighbor kid 397 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 3: who did it. But the fact is the king self 398 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 3: asphyxiated before the trial, so he was never able to 399 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: be His testimony or his claim that she had done 400 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: it was never able to be in peach because he 401 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 3: was dead. But the fact is, when her conviction was 402 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: overturned after twenty years, a judge said through tears that 403 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 3: in his forty plus years on the bench, he had 404 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 3: never seen a more you know, a worst case. I 405 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: forgot his exact words, but he, you know, was it 406 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: was so insane. And when you meet Michelle, and I 407 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: did meet Michelle weeks after she came home, and she's 408 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 3: so extraordinary. She's such a beacon of light, you know. 409 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 3: And her case, sadly is not an outlier. I mean, 410 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 3: there are tens of thousands of wrongfully convicted people in 411 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: prison in America right now while we're having this conversation. 412 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 3: Many of them are on death row. I had a 413 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: call today with Billy Allen, a zoom with him, a 414 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 3: strategy call with him and his team. He's on death row. 415 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 3: He's on federal death row for a crime he couldn't 416 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 3: possibly have committed. In fact, people, you know, people say 417 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 3: to me, well, you know, but is he really innocent? 418 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: And I'll go listen, Ben, you know, you're as guilty 419 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 3: of this crime as he is. In fact, I can't 420 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: even say that because I can prove that he didn't 421 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: do it. But I don't know where you were that day, 422 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. 423 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: I. 424 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: Oh, might have just he might have just unsolved this mystery. No, 425 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: But anyway, the fact is it's you know, we have 426 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 3: to laugh to keep from crying. But Billy Allen you know, 427 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: is another one, right, he's on death row for twenty 428 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 3: six years. The guy's an incredibly brilliant artist. He's a painter, 429 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: he's a poet, he's phenomenally evolved person. Wasn't a troubled guy, 430 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 3: wasn't a trouble maker, you know, but was wrapped up 431 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 3: in this ridiculous frame job in Ohio, oh sorry, in 432 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 3: Missouri for our bank robbery he couldn't possibly have committed 433 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 3: because he was at the mall and there were video 434 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 3: that could have proved it, and there were receipts for 435 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 3: clothes he had bought, and there were witnesses. And not 436 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: only that, but the robbers had robbed this bank and 437 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: killed a white car. There were two black guys and 438 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 3: their genius plan was they loaded up and you have 439 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: to hear this episode, I think it's number three oh three, 440 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: but they loaded up a van with gasoline. These two geniuses. 441 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 3: Their getaway plan was they had a van which they 442 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: had coded with gasoline because they were going to jump 443 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 3: into this van after they robbed the bank, speed away 444 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: to another getaway car, set the van on fire to 445 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: destroy whatever evidence there was, and get away that way. 446 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 3: But the van caught on fire on the way to 447 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 3: the vetaway car, because of course it did, because it 448 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 3: was loaded with gasoline and coded with gasoline. Right, So 449 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 3: one guy is on fire, he can't get away. He's 450 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 3: rolling around in the grass. He gets arrested immediately. The 451 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 3: other guy runs away, but he's singed, and he smells 452 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: like gasoline. Did the people see him because he stops 453 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: to ask people for directions, where's the train? He's trying 454 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 3: to get away on the train now, right, And they 455 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: reported they've described him. These were people who worked at 456 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: the park service or something. And Billy, you know, when 457 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: the guy who was caught, you know, is being forced 458 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: to name his co conspirator. He first he said it 459 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 3: was some other name John or something. Then he said, 460 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: oh no, maybe it was Bill. And then the only 461 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 3: guy that he knew named Bill was he barely knew 462 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 3: was this guy Billy Allen. But Billy had all these 463 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 3: alibis and evidence that he wasn't there, and he didn't 464 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 3: smell like gasoline, and none of his clothes had gasoline 465 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 3: on him, and he wasn't singed, and he didn't match 466 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 3: the description, but none of it mattered. And he's been 467 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 3: on death row now for twenty five, twenty six years 468 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: and I strongly encourage people to look up the name Billy. 469 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 3: It's b I L l I E A L L 470 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 3: e N. Google that name, and you know we're going 471 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 3: to be eventually well. Doctor Philip is going to release 472 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 3: an episode coming up soon on this case, and we're 473 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: going to really mount a big campaign because he needs 474 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 3: to come home and the idea that he could be 475 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 3: executed is just insane. 476 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: There's also a free Billy Allen on Instagram, right anybody. 477 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 3: Right ad free Billy Allen, and you can google you. 478 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 3: Like I said, you can listen to the Wrongful Conviction 479 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 3: podcast with Billy Allen. You can also look up the 480 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 3: eight minute video that the kids at Georgetown to making 481 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 3: an exandery class did. It's phenomenal, phenomenal video. So yeah, 482 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: those are just a couple. I mean, we don't have time. 483 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: We could go on, it would be dark and we'd 484 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: be hungry and tired by the time I finished telling 485 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 3: you these horrible stories. 486 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: Will pause here for a word from our sponsor and 487 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: return with more from Jason Flapp. 488 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: And we've returned, let's talk a little bit more about 489 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: the perspective you mentioned a little earlier, like from someone 490 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: from an outsider perspective saying, how do they know that 491 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: these people are actually innocent? What does the evaluation look 492 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 2: like for a group like the Innocence Project, or for 493 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: you when you're going to make a wrongful conviction episode? 494 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: What does that evaluation look like for a CA? Is 495 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: it like what you were just describing, really getting into 496 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: the evidence, getting into that stuff and just evaluating it 497 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: on your own or having attorneys do it. 498 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question, man, And the answer is 499 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: that with innocence projects, and there's the Innocence Project in 500 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 3: New York, and there are local innocence projects around the 501 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: country as well. There's It's the Project, New Orleans, the 502 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 3: California Innis's Project, Midwest inst the Project. Many of them 503 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: do fantastic work, but the fact is that they The 504 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 3: Innocence Project of New York, for instance, has an intake department, 505 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 3: and we have people who are trained to read these 506 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 3: letters that come in. You can imagine, we get hundreds 507 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 3: of letters a month from people who want our help, 508 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 3: and so these people are trained in the art of 509 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 3: researching and reviewing and processing this information to determine not 510 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: only the veracity of the claim of innocence, but also 511 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 3: whether or not it's a case where we are able 512 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 3: to effectively, you know, advocate for them, and that takes 513 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 3: on different forms. But with the Wrongful Conviction Podcast, our 514 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 3: process is different, of course, but the same in certain ways. 515 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 3: You know, I get most of the cases that we 516 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: cover from people from trusted sources, from people at instance, projects, 517 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 3: from attorneys that I know. I also get, you know, 518 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 3: relatives reaching out to me and people from all walks 519 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 3: of life, you know, who've seen me on TV or 520 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: you know, heard the podcast or whatever it might be, 521 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: and they have a loved one or they're even writing 522 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: to me from prison. And so then we have a 523 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: team that researches those cases to try to figure out, 524 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: you know, if it's a valid claim of innocence and 525 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 3: whether we think that our advocacy could help to make 526 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 3: a difference. And of course if we can, we want to, 527 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 3: and sometimes you know, pressure can break pipes. Podcasts have 528 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 3: become like the new jurys. In fact, today, Bone Valley, 529 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 3: our podcast that you know, was part of the presentation 530 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 3: we did together in Atlanta, Gilbert King King. Yeah, Bone Valley, 531 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 3: which has been winning awards and been you know the 532 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 3: top ten in every English speaking country in the world 533 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: pretty much. Today Leo Schofield, the man who is wrongfully convicted, 534 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 3: whose story is the story of the podcast in Florida, 535 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: who's been in for almost thirty five years now. So 536 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 3: he went before the parole board today and in no 537 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 3: small part due to the exposure that we were able 538 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 3: to bring through the podcast medium, which you guys basically 539 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 3: freaking invented, the parole board ruled. Look, they didn't rule 540 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: the way we really were hoping, which was that he 541 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: was going to come home immediately, which is where it belongs. 542 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: But they did rule that he's going to be sent 543 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 3: to a program at a minimum security facility, which will 544 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 3: take some more between nine months in a year, which 545 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: to us would seem like an eternity, but to him 546 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 3: probably seems like, you know, next week after thirty five 547 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: years in prison, and there's an extremely strong likelihood that 548 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: at the end of that period of time he will 549 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: be freed and will go home to his wife, his daughter, 550 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: and his grandchildren. And so he's happy with the outcome. Obviously, again, 551 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: it's not what we hoped for. And to those who 552 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 3: haven't heard Bone Valley, please check it. Out because if 553 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 3: you want a this is Gilbert King, the poolser Prize 554 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: winning journalist who spent three and a half years researching 555 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 3: this case. And on the podcast spoiler Alert, you're going 556 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: to hear the actual killer confess in details that only 557 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 3: he could know that weren't public. And you're going to 558 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: learn that his fingerprints were found not by the state 559 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 3: but by private investigators, well by interested people, right, not 560 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: a private investigator. Seventeen years later, his fingerprints are found 561 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: in the car that Michelle was murdered in. There's no 562 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 3: question about these things, right, And then it gets worse 563 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: from there. But every episode is like peeling back the 564 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: layers of an onion. And you know, it's so outrageous, 565 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: and I think that's why it's caught the public imagination. 566 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 3: But again, it's outrageous, but it's not unusual. 567 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: So how do Okay, the first, let's assume the mindset 568 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: of just the average person who has maybe never really 569 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: tangled with law enforcement outside of a parking ticket, right 570 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: or you know, they got a speeding ticket or a 571 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: tailite ticket or something. One of the first questions those 572 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: folks will have is, how do these clearly wrong, unjust 573 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: convictions occur. What leads to a system that produces these 574 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: with such consistency. 575 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: Well, the answer to that, the big answer is mass 576 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: incarceration itself. Right, this failed social policy disaster that has 577 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 3: turned us into the most incarcerated nation in the history 578 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 3: of the world. And when I say that, that's not hyperbole. 579 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: We have more people in prison in America than Russia 580 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: and China combined. We have more people in jail awaiting 581 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: trial who haven't been convicted of anything than everyone behind 582 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 3: bars in India right now. Okay, and India has what 583 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 3: four times as many people as we do, and it 584 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: gets worse from there. We have twenty five percent of 585 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: the world's prison population but only four point four percent 586 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 3: of the world's population. And we have thirty three percent 587 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: of the world's female prison population. What is That's crazy? 588 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 3: Last statistic I'll throw at you is we lock up 589 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: black people at a rate that is higher than South 590 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: Africa during apartheid per capita. We I mean, I hear 591 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: myself say that, and I go, flum, you sound right now, 592 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 3: but it's true. And every time I say it, I 593 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: go research and it's like, Yep, it's true. It's much higher. 594 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 3: It's not a little higher, it's much higher. So so 595 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 3: my point being that when you have two plus million 596 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: people in jails and prisons right now in America, in 597 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: steel and concrete cages, right suffering at this very moment, 598 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 3: and that compares with two to three hundred thousand, forty 599 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: years ago, right that we had in the same country 600 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: with no benefit to public safety whatsoever. And the result 601 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 3: of that we with eleven million people churning through jails 602 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: and prisons each year. That's how many people go in 603 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 3: and out of jails and prisons in the American chare. 604 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: So why that's important in the context of your question, 605 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 3: Bet is because when you have that many people cycling through, 606 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: there's no time for the system to recognize and respect 607 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: anyone's individual rights unless you're wealthy, in which case you 608 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 3: have the ability to pay for an attorney who can 609 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 3: really represent you. You have the ability to post bail 610 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 3: and go home after you've been arrested, and you can 611 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: probably avoid most of the worst outcomes that are reserved 612 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: for the people who are most marginalized in our society, 613 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 3: and those. 614 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: Feeling like you can slow time down with that money 615 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 2: and attorney, in a way, slow the whole process down. 616 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: A little bit, right, because that's one of the big problems. 617 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's the inverse, right or the converse. I mean, 618 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 3: you know, you look at the guy who used to 619 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 3: be in the White House, right, and how he's been 620 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 3: able to, you know, avoid consequences for as long as 621 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 3: he has, And that's an extreme example. But you know, 622 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 3: we have so such a disproportionate reaction to the level 623 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 3: of crime. And that's another subject, right, is how we 624 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 3: have become the most overpoliced society in the free world 625 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 3: by a mile, and how we're the most you know, 626 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 3: spendthrift society in terms of the way we just freely 627 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: dedicate resources to the things that we know don't work, 628 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 3: which are police, prosecutors, in prisons, right, the three p's, 629 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: and these things don't make us safer. In fact, they 630 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 3: make us less safe. This has been proven by every 631 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: serious social scientist who's ever studied these things. But we're 632 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 3: like addicted to it, and it's it's part of my 633 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 3: mission in life. I guess my overarching goal is to 634 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 3: end mass incarceration. That's why I've worked on mandatory sensing, 635 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 3: That's why I've worked on drug decriminalization. That's why I 636 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 3: work on bail reform. That's why, you know, all of 637 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 3: these are parts of the same giant monster that we 638 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 3: have to you know, we have to we have to slay. 639 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 5: You say, we're addicted to it, like as a society, 640 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 5: maybe as a government. I mean, you know, a lot 641 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 5: of the stuff with the war on drugs is also 642 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 5: wrapped up into kind of you know, slave labor by 643 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,439 Speaker 5: a different name. You know, can you talk a little 644 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 5: bit about that, Like on the panel, we discussed the 645 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 5: idea of like is the prison system broken or is 646 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 5: it working exactly as intended? 647 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 3: Yeah? So, no, you're exactly right. I mean, slavery is 648 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 3: not illegal in America and people are probably tuning out 649 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 3: right now, going, who's this crack poty he's always talking about? 650 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 3: It was dating fo Yeah. So when slavery was abolished 651 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 3: as a sort of a you know, a give a 652 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 3: concession to the Southern States, they allowed that slavery was 653 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 3: only illegal if you're free. So predictably, what happened was 654 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 3: the Southerners who needed slave labor to pick cotton and 655 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 3: sugar and other things, went around and arrested black people 656 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 3: for loitering, for not having idea on them, for not 657 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 3: even having a job. They could arrest someone for being 658 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 3: unemployed back then, and it hasn't changed that much. But 659 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: you know, it was more out in the open then, 660 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 3: and those people then were forced to work for free. 661 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 3: It was even convict leasing and things like that. And 662 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 3: that's how a lot of the cotton was picked and 663 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 3: the sugar was harvested. And these were jobs that had 664 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 3: I think sugar was the most dangerous crop because I 665 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 3: think they had four percent fatalities annually among people who 666 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 3: are working in those fields. But they didn't care because 667 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 3: it was an endless supply, endless supply of free labor. 668 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,959 Speaker 3: So Colorado a couple of years ago became the first 669 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 3: state to abolish slavery, truly abolish it when they in 670 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 3: a referendum, the voters passed a referendum making it illy 671 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: for people to be enslaved while they're being imprisoned. And so, 672 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 3: you know, now we have to get the rest of 673 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 3: the states, you know, one by one and if they 674 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: have be done by referendums. Unfortunately, only about half of 675 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 3: the states have referendums, and not all of them will 676 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 3: vote this way. But you know, whatever we have to do, 677 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 3: that should that should outrage everyone, you know, And in 678 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 3: some of these states they get paid nineteen cents an 679 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 3: hour or a dollar a day, or you know, in 680 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 3: Louisiana the gola four cents. I think it's four cents 681 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 3: an hour, but they take two cents as attacks, you know, 682 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 3: So it's it's slave labor, no matter how you look 683 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: at it, it's it's ridiculous. And a lot of products 684 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 3: that we use are made in these prisons, not just 685 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 3: license plates, right, but also key shirts, you know, coffee cups, underwear, 686 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff is made in prisons by some 687 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 3: really I don't want to name news because o't know 688 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 3: which corporations may have stopped doing it. I can keep 689 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 3: track of it. But some of the blue chip like 690 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: Fortune five hundred companies, and you can look this up, 691 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 3: use the labor from prisons, and you know, it's it's 692 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 3: just one of the many terrible things about the way 693 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 3: we operate right now. 694 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: I think some military supplies are made in prisons. 695 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 3: I wouldn't doubt it. 696 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 2: Over a decade ago, we made an episode on the 697 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 2: privatization of prisons, and when we were hanging out at 698 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 2: that live show, I brought that up in the room 699 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: with Greg and Greg Laude, who's with the War on drugs, 700 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: and a couple other people, and for us, when we 701 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 2: made that episode again a long time ago, it felt 702 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 2: like maybe that was one of the biggest issues leading 703 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 2: to mass incarceration because there was a real profit motive 704 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: attached to just getting a person in a bed as 705 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: an individual inmate. Right, But Greg and I think you too, 706 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 2: Jason had a different take on that. I just wondered 707 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 2: how the view on the privatization of prisons has changed 708 00:38:58,840 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 2: as a contributing fact. 709 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 3: A lot of people talk about private prisons as sort 710 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 3: of the you know, the boogeyman, and they're terrible. It's 711 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 3: it's I think if you go to another country, it's 712 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 3: almost like an electoral college or like people won't be 713 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 3: able to look at you. Like can imagine if you 714 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 3: went to another country and you were like, who won 715 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 3: the popular vote over here? Right, You're like in Belgium, 716 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 3: They're like, what are you an idiot? There's no popular vote. 717 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 3: There's a vote. One person winds, the other person loses. 718 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 3: Whoever gets the most, let most goes home, and that's it. 719 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 3: But America is a weird place, so private prisons, those 720 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 3: are two words that should never go together. But approximately 721 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 3: six percent of the people locked up in America are 722 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 3: in private prisons. So it's a horrible, horrible thing because 723 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 3: when you think about it, of course private prisons are 724 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 3: buying large, more dangerous and more draconian even than the 725 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 3: prisons that are operated by the states and the federal government, 726 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 3: because they're only there to make money, so they're paying 727 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 3: the least they can for everything, right guards, food, Not 728 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 3: that there's good food in prisons in America in general, 729 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 3: far from it, but it's all worse. And so there's 730 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 3: more chaos, and there's more hardship, and there's more sickness, 731 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 3: and there's more violence, and there's more of all the 732 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 3: terrible things that we as a society, whether someone's guilty 733 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 3: or innocent, we shouldn't want that inflicted on them. These 734 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 3: are people, if they're guilty, they're people who made a mistake, 735 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 3: but they're human beings. I believe what Brian Stevenson says 736 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 3: is that no one should be judged by the worst 737 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 3: thing they've ever done or no. He says, we're all 738 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 3: better than the worst thing we've ever done. And I 739 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 3: think that's an incredible statement. So you know, and we 740 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 3: also have to start moving to an approach like they 741 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 3: take in most of Western Europe, where they look at 742 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 3: it and say, well, this person's eventually going to be released, 743 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 3: and when they're released, they might be my neighbor. And 744 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 3: I want them to come out whole. I want them 745 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 3: to come out with the possibility of getting a good job, 746 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 3: with healthcare, with you know, some job training, with some 747 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 3: you know, treatment for whatever was wrong with them that 748 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 3: made them want to commit a crime in the first place, 749 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 3: so that they can be a good neighbor. They can 750 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 3: they can contribute to society. But instead we you know, 751 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 3: I always say we should build ramps, and instead we 752 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 3: build walls outside of the walls right for people to 753 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 3: have to climb over in order just to get back 754 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 3: to a decent way of life because they made a 755 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 3: mistake at some point, which I don't know about you guys, 756 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 3: but I know I made a lot of mistakes when 757 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 3: I was a kid that if I was a different 758 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 3: colored skin, or it was from a different zip code, 759 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: I probably would have ended up in jail and prison 760 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 3: and life would have been very different. And I don't 761 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 3: know who would have benefited from that, because as a 762 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 3: result of me going to rehab instead of prison. You know, 763 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 3: I ended up starting businesses, paying lots of taxes, employing 764 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 3: lots of people, discovering some music that probably a lot 765 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 3: of people that are listening may have enjoyed, you know, 766 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 3: maybe even had some illicit fun too. I don't know, 767 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 3: so I hope so. So. You know, nobody would have 768 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 3: won had I gone to prison, except maybe somebody would 769 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 3: have made it a few bucks. And at the end 770 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 3: of the day, that's you touched on that. That's part 771 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 3: of the problem. And by the way, I have to 772 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 3: thank you guys. You know, I listened to your show 773 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 3: about the police gangs, and as a result, I started 774 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 3: watching that that TV series that you recommended, We Own 775 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 3: This City on HBO. 776 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 4: Awesome. It's it's underrated, didn't get the accolades. 777 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 3: That's why I'm glad we're here talking about it again now. 778 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 3: I mean, I encourage people to watch this show because 779 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 3: it's you. 780 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 5: Know, forfeiture, I mean not forfeiture, seizure of you know, 781 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 5: basically theft. 782 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 4: You know, we talked about the idea of. 783 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 5: Like one of the punitive measures that law enforcement can 784 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 5: and act on people who are not actually convicted. They 785 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 5: are just accused is taking their stuff, taking their money, 786 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 5: you know, or even like is you know shown in 787 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 5: that show, maybe even stealing drugs and you know, moving 788 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 5: them illicitly and you know, kind of all the books 789 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 5: black ops type operations. That's something that I wish you 790 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 5: would have touched on a little more on the panel, 791 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 5: just the idea of kind of undo forfeiture or seizure 792 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 5: of assets. 793 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad we're talking about it now. That's actually 794 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 3: something I was looking forward to talking with you guys 795 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 3: about because I thought you did a great job on 796 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: that episode, which is an episode of people haven't listened yet, 797 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 3: go back and listen to that episode. What what episode? 798 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 3: Maybe you guys can put it in the link and 799 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 3: the bio or yeah, do the police have gangs? Yeah, yeah, 800 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 3: it's it's uh, it's terrifying. I mean, you know, people 801 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 3: that work in criminal justice reform won't be surprised by it, 802 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 3: but it's still it's it's madness. And the show which 803 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 3: talks about the Baltimore Guntrays task Force and is you know, 804 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 3: horrifying in every way because it's a true story and 805 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 3: you know, this is the task force that was you know, 806 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 3: if you google Baltimore toy gun scandal, you'll find the 807 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 3: information about this group of cops, eight of whom are 808 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 3: in prison right now, you know, who were planting toy 809 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 3: guns on people that they shot. But that wasn't all 810 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 3: they were doing. They were also you know, selling drugs, 811 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,479 Speaker 3: robbing drug dealers, robbing civilians, framing people for all sorts 812 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 3: of crimes, and on beating the beating the hell out 813 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 3: of people, murdering people. And you know, it points to 814 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 3: something that we talked about on the panel, which I 815 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 3: have to say, it feels to me like we as 816 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 3: a society have developed a cognitive dissonance when it comes 817 00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 3: to any rational discussion about new approaches to solving to 818 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 3: making our society safer. Right, And I say it again 819 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 3: and again. What causes crime by and large is desperation. 820 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 3: That could be mental illness, by the way, but mostly 821 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,879 Speaker 3: it's poverty, and it's you know, it's it's lack of hope, right. 822 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 3: And when people become desperate enough, they're likely to try 823 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 3: to do something because they have nothing. And if that's something, 824 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 3: if there's no way out for them except to see, 825 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 3: you know, to do something that's illegal, maybe even that's 826 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 3: hurtful to other people, then that's what they They may 827 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 3: well do, but if you provide them with hope, and 828 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 3: we know programs that work. There are lots of programs 829 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 3: that work, that are proven to work, you know, like 830 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 3: in New York City, the Avenues for Justice is an 831 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 3: organization that takes kids on their first serious interaction with 832 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 3: the criminal justice system when they meet with that kid 833 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 3: and the family if that kid is lucky enough to 834 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 3: interact with them, where they find out about this kid, 835 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 3: and then if they believe they can help, they go 836 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 3: to meet with the judge and the prosecutor and say, 837 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 3: let us have a shot at this. Okay, give us 838 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 3: two or three years to work with this kid, and 839 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 3: we'll send them to college and you'll never hear their 840 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 3: name again. Their success rate is ninety one percent, by 841 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,240 Speaker 3: the way, and it costs fifty seven hundred dollars a year. Now, 842 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 3: let's talk about that in the context of what it 843 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 3: costs to keep a kid locked up in Rikers Island, 844 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 3: which is only a few miles from where I'm sitting 845 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 3: right now. Rikers Island, it costs five hundred and sixty 846 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 3: five thousand dollars a year to keep a kid locked 847 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 3: up there almost exactly one hundred times as much as 848 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,879 Speaker 3: it does to help that kid and turn them into 849 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 3: a productive, tax paying citizen. But what exactly are we doing? 850 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 3: If you just look at the overtime we played the 851 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 3: police in New York City, a fraction of what we 852 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 3: pay overtime would solve our homeless problem in New York 853 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 3: City a fraction of it, just the overtime. Right. But 854 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:12,240 Speaker 3: the difficulty is people can't wrap themselves around the idea 855 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 3: that those people don't make us safer. Right, they don't 856 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 3: prevent crimes because it's virtually possible to prevent crimes. It 857 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 3: can't be everywhere, and if they were, it wouldn't prevent 858 00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 3: crimes anyway. You know, someone says, well, if they're standing 859 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 3: outside of a bodega and somebody goes to rob the bodega, 860 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 3: well then they'll go rob a different bodega, right, I 861 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 3: mean if they're desperate enough to do it in the 862 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 3: first place. And they don't really solve crimes either, right, 863 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 3: they solve two percent of crimes, They investigate ten percent 864 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 3: of serious crimes. Even murders they solve less much less 865 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 3: than fifty percent. Other than many of those they solve wrong. 866 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 3: And so then you get to what you mentioned, I think, Noel, right, 867 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 3: which is that they're committing crimes in numbers that we don't. 868 00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,719 Speaker 3: We can't, we can't really even we can, and we 869 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 3: see it again and again, almost like scandals in the 870 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 3: Catholic Church, right, But yet we still allow the church 871 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 3: to operate tax free, even though every city has had 872 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:16,240 Speaker 3: these major scandals where there's been priests abusing and abusing 873 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 3: is too gentle of a word, you know, doing the 874 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 3: worst things imaginable to children. But they still are allowed 875 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 3: to operate tax free. And at the same time, there's 876 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 3: an interesting you know, parallel to these scandals that have 877 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 3: happened in police departments all over the country, every city, right, 878 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 3: and where you have police who are you know, over 879 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:45,280 Speaker 3: indexing in every conceivable category of crime, whether it's domestic 880 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 3: violence right where reported numbers are four times higher in 881 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 3: families that haven't a police officer than in the general population, 882 00:48:54,040 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 3: whether it's murder, whether it's you know, other types of crimes. 883 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 3: And then to go back to your point, Noel, and 884 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 3: no I'll get off this soapbox. The Washington Post reported 885 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 3: starting in twenty fourteen that police stole more money and 886 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 3: property from civilians than all the robberies combined, all the 887 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 3: burglars and robberies combined. But we don't talk about that, 888 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 3: right because civil asset forfeiture allows that they can just 889 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,760 Speaker 3: take your stuff. Right if you're going through an airport 890 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 3: and this happens all the time, or you're driving in 891 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 3: your car, you're on a train, and they search you 892 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 3: and they find a bunch of money on you, no drugs, 893 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 3: no weapons, no evidence you've done anything. They go, well, 894 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 3: we think you must be a drug dealer because you 895 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 3: got all this money on you. So we're taking it, 896 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 3: and your only recourse is to you know, you have 897 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 3: to prove the negative. You have to prove that you 898 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,399 Speaker 3: weren't committing any crimes and that that money didn't come 899 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 3: from any illegal activity that you were involved in. So 900 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 3: let's say they take five thousand bucks off right now, 901 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 3: you're going to go hire a lawyer for five thousand 902 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 3: bucks to go try to get your five thousand bucks back. No, 903 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 3: you're doomed. Right. Maybe it's in a city you don't 904 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 3: even live in. It's somewhere you're driving through, and these 905 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 3: things happen in clusters. But so you know, Florida recently 906 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 3: banned civil asset for it's your families against mandatory miniums 907 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 3: led that fight. Actually, but it's crazy that this stuff 908 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,680 Speaker 3: is allowed to go on. So not only nol are 909 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,319 Speaker 3: not only are you not convicted of crime, you're not 910 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 3: even charged with a crime. They just have to go. 911 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 3: We think maybe you might have you know, or we 912 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,480 Speaker 3: think this car might have been involved in some illegal activity, 913 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:35,560 Speaker 3: so we're taking your car. 914 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: Here's your smart grift. Unfortunately. 915 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's an awful, awful grift, and it's it's 916 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 3: it happens in the shadows and people don't talk about it. 917 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,760 Speaker 3: We don't know about it, so we need. 918 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 2: It happens at the lat airport, right, And we just 919 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 2: learned from Clean English. Yeah, a co host of the 920 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,759 Speaker 2: War on Drugs. It just happened to him. He's a 921 00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 2: prominent comedian, actor, writer, like big name, and he just 922 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 2: took his money. 923 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, there's so many brilliant people that 924 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 3: are that are out there talking about this. Alex Fatali 925 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,840 Speaker 3: has his book The End of Policing, which is brilliant, 926 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 3: which argues for making our society safer. And you know, 927 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 3: when you think about it, why in the world have 928 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,760 Speaker 3: we And this is actually something that I think most 929 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 3: police and police families or organizations would agree with. Right, 930 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 3: why is it? Why have we decided it's their job 931 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 3: to respond to mental illness crises, right or drug overdoses. 932 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 3: Why do we have them doing traffic stops? That makes 933 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,840 Speaker 3: no sense whatsoever. You don't need a police officer to 934 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 3: do a traffic stop. First of all, you could have 935 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,479 Speaker 3: a civilian doing it. And second of all, well, there's 936 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 3: cameras literally everywhere. You could just if somebody really runs 937 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 3: the stop sign right, or really you know, is driving 938 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 3: in the wrong way or whatever they're doing right, or 939 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 3: has a broken freaking tail light, you can take a 940 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 3: picture with one of the millions of cameras in all 941 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 3: over the streets and send a bill to the person's 942 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 3: house that corresponds with the license plate, and then they 943 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 3: pay it, and you're saving all godly amounts of money 944 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 3: on godly amounts of money, and also preventing the worst 945 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,360 Speaker 3: outcomes that we see so often from these traffic stops. 946 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,839 Speaker 3: And you know, we need to reduce our aliance on police, 947 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,239 Speaker 3: and there are a number of cities that are doing 948 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 3: this with profoundly positive results. Denver, Albuquerque, Berkeley is the 949 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 3: first city. Now I think that's that's decided they're not 950 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 3: going to use law enforcement in traffic stops anymore, right, 951 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,879 Speaker 3: But other cities have experimented with, like Denver, diverting over 952 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 3: ninety percent of nine one one calls to people who 953 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 3: are trained in whatever that is. If it's domestic violence, 954 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,839 Speaker 3: they're trained in crisis intervention, right. If it's drugs, there's 955 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 3: people who are trained drug you know, you know experts, 956 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 3: you know, an ambulance things, so the work, you know, 957 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,880 Speaker 3: people that know how to do exactly what that is. 958 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 3: But instead we take police who are actually just violence workers. Right, 959 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 3: that's what they're trained in. They're trained in trying to 960 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 3: analyze a threat and then neutralizing that threat. But they're 961 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 3: not trained how to recognize where someone's if somebody's mentally ill, 962 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 3: if somebody might be deaf and can't understand what their 963 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,320 Speaker 3: instructions are, et cetera, et cetera. And so the worst 964 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,959 Speaker 3: outcomes that we see day in and day out were 965 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 3: police and America murder between three and four people daily, 966 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 3: right daily. And this is the last thing I got. 967 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,759 Speaker 3: I gotta throw this out, because nobody talks about this, right, 968 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 3: But I'm just sort of obsessed with this notion that 969 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:51,200 Speaker 3: Americans have been taught by the media largely and by 970 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 3: pro police forces to be scared. Right, We're all scared 971 00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 3: of crime, crime, crime, crime, somebody committed a crime. It's terrible, 972 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 3: it's traut it's terrible, it's dangerous. As soon as you 973 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,120 Speaker 3: leave your house, in your house, you need a gun. 974 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 3: You're danger. Danger, danger everywhere, danger, danger nature. I live 975 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,360 Speaker 3: in Manhattan. New York City is currently the ninth safest 976 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,720 Speaker 3: big city in the world. It's one of the safest 977 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,360 Speaker 3: places in the world. I walk everywhere. I wear a 978 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,040 Speaker 3: nice watch. Sometimes the rolex. You know, I'm fine. There's 979 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,239 Speaker 3: no crime, there's no you can't. I can't find any crime. 980 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,439 Speaker 3: There's crime in certain neighborhoods if you really go look 981 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,880 Speaker 3: for it. But you know this, by large, it's extremely safer. 982 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,319 Speaker 3: But everybody's worried that they're going to get killed. And 983 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 3: by the way, the one statistic I was going to 984 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,080 Speaker 3: add before, which you can use or not, but which 985 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,360 Speaker 3: I think is really wild, is that the stranger danger 986 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 3: murders that everyone worries about, right that they're going to 987 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 3: they're going to walk down the Sasas Street and somebody 988 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,320 Speaker 3: gonna jump out of an alley and you know, steal 989 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,799 Speaker 3: their stuff and kill them or whatever it is. Right, 990 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 3: the FBI says that nine point nine percent of murders 991 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 3: in America are those type of murders, stranger danger murders. Right. 992 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 3: Almost overwhelmingly it's people who know each other, right, they're 993 00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,799 Speaker 3: in some sort of a dispute. It's a could be 994 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,880 Speaker 3: able lover's quarrel, could be a business dispute, could be 995 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,160 Speaker 3: a you know whatever. Right people know each other, they 996 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 3: get in arguments and sometimes it ends badly. So that 997 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 3: means about fourteen hundred people are murdered in America in 998 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,319 Speaker 3: a year by a stranger. So the odds of you 999 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,800 Speaker 3: being murdered by a stranger are infinitestabal in America higher 1000 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,760 Speaker 3: than other Western countries be cause of guns, but still infinitesimal. Now, 1001 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 3: let's talk about police murders of civilians. Right. Last year, police, 1002 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 3: according to their own reporting, murdered eleven hundred and seventy 1003 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 3: four civilians. But we know that they're not always truthful 1004 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 3: about these things, right. They originally said that George Floyd 1005 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:43,839 Speaker 3: died of a medical problem until the video came out, 1006 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,879 Speaker 3: they said the Tyree Nichols died of a medical problem 1007 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 3: until the video came out. They said the same thing 1008 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:52,000 Speaker 3: about Ronald Green, who's every bit as terrifying as Tyree Nichols, 1009 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 3: but for some reason it hasn't caught the public imagination 1010 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,239 Speaker 3: the same way. So let's say that fifteen percent of 1011 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:03,920 Speaker 3: the time they I'm the same miscategorize, right, that's probably 1012 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,960 Speaker 3: too kind of a word, but whatever. That means that 1013 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 3: police are murdering close to fourteen hundred people in America 1014 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 3: per year, which is the same number as people who 1015 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 3: are murdered by strangers. So if you're murdered by a 1016 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,480 Speaker 3: stranger in the United States, it's about a fifty to 1017 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 3: fifty chance that the stranger who killed you is wearing 1018 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:35,120 Speaker 3: a gun and a badge. And so it's really, you know, 1019 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,080 Speaker 3: when you put it in those terms, it's really you 1020 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,799 Speaker 3: got to scratch your head and go, what are we doing? 1021 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 3: You know, what in the world are we doing? It 1022 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:48,480 Speaker 3: doesn't make any freaking sense. So I think, you know 1023 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,920 Speaker 3: that's why that's that show We Own the City is 1024 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:53,800 Speaker 3: an important show for people to watch. 1025 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,279 Speaker 2: We're going to pause for just a moment here, a 1026 00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 2: word from our sponsor and then we'll be right back, 1027 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 2: and we're back. 1028 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,959 Speaker 1: Let's go to uh, let's go to the courtroom here, 1029 00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,040 Speaker 1: because there's something we were talking about Jason in the 1030 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,080 Speaker 1: panel when we're talking to Noel, Matt and I and 1031 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,400 Speaker 1: I knew we were really cooking with gas when are 1032 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 1: the tone of our conversation was accelerating right as we 1033 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:27,840 Speaker 1: knew we were running out of time. We're trying to 1034 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,720 Speaker 1: get to these really important things. And I had this 1035 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,200 Speaker 1: to your point about media, right, We had this question 1036 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:42,040 Speaker 1: about copaganda as it's sometimes called, and how this gives 1037 00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: us this skewed normalized view of what truly is a fiction. 1038 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: And you, when we ask what people as individuals need 1039 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,200 Speaker 1: to know about the court system, the court piece of 1040 00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,440 Speaker 1: this in wrongful convictions, war on drugs, and so on, 1041 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,600 Speaker 1: you hit on something a lot of people don't talk 1042 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: about just one prosecutorial misconduct. And then second, just the 1043 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,640 Speaker 1: whole idea of bail, of the bail system. Do you 1044 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: remember we were You were like, hang on, we have 1045 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,960 Speaker 1: to talk about bail reform, and most people don't. I 1046 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:25,520 Speaker 1: will admit before that conversation, I wasn't walking around on 1047 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: my day to day with bail reform as one of 1048 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,640 Speaker 1: the top ten to does in my head. 1049 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm happy to talk about that, and I'm 1050 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,360 Speaker 3: glad you raised it. And copaganda is an important word. 1051 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,000 Speaker 3: It's a word that was on the tip of my 1052 00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 3: tongue when you said it. And I encourage people to 1053 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,120 Speaker 3: follow the work of Alec Car Katsanas That's al e c. 1054 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,760 Speaker 3: And his last name is a little bit of a 1055 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 3: tongue twister, but it's kar ak at s a ni 1056 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 3: s Alec Carr Katsanis and he is one of the 1057 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,760 Speaker 3: most brilliant people I know and afoundly important figure in 1058 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,600 Speaker 3: the world of criminal justice reform, and he's done transformative 1059 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:08,880 Speaker 3: work on bail. He has a newsletter that you can 1060 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,280 Speaker 3: sign up for right now called Alex Copaganda Newsletter, which 1061 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,080 Speaker 3: I think could really changed your views on how the 1062 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 3: media reports these things and why we are led to 1063 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 3: believe the things that were led to believe. And you know, 1064 00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 3: his work on bail has centered on the fact that 1065 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,800 Speaker 3: money bail is in fact unconstitutional. It's a violation of 1066 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 3: the fourteenth Amendment and I think the sixth or the 1067 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,720 Speaker 3: eighth I can't remember now, because it's not equal detection 1068 00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,320 Speaker 3: or due process. When two different people are arrested for 1069 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,959 Speaker 3: exactly the same crime, but one of them has money 1070 00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,600 Speaker 3: and the other one doesn't. So one of them goes 1071 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 3: home and goes to the movies or does whatever they do, 1072 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,080 Speaker 3: or goes fix up their kids for school, and the 1073 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 3: other one goes to jail and his thing is you know, 1074 00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 3: he's out there winning case after case from some very 1075 01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,720 Speaker 3: conservative judges too, in front of some very conservative judges 1076 01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 3: who agree that this is an unconstitutional practice. Judges are 1077 01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,919 Speaker 3: required to set bail In the Eighth Amendment. It says 1078 01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:15,439 Speaker 3: that it is unconstitutional to set bail that is unaffordable. 1079 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,000 Speaker 3: But it happens every day, thousands of times a day, 1080 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:25,320 Speaker 3: in every city in the country. And yet we think 1081 01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 3: somehow this is making us safer, when in fact, all 1082 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:32,880 Speaker 3: the research has shown that bail reform makes us safer. 1083 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,400 Speaker 3: Why is that true? Because people are picked up for 1084 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:41,440 Speaker 3: a crime, usually it's a misdemeanor, right, The overwhelming number 1085 01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 3: of arrests are for misdemeanors. People think cops, They think 1086 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,080 Speaker 3: the law and order version of cops is what cops 1087 01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,840 Speaker 3: are doing. But their jobs are generally mundane, right, Only 1088 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,520 Speaker 3: I think one percent of nine one one calls are 1089 01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,520 Speaker 3: for enviolment, crime and progress right, So mostly they're giving 1090 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,520 Speaker 3: out traffic tickets and doing all that other stuff. But 1091 01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:06,760 Speaker 3: when people are arrested, they're presumed innocent, but yet they're 1092 01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,520 Speaker 3: taken to jail if they can't pay bail. Now, when 1093 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 3: they're arrested, if they're held in jail for whether it's 1094 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:21,960 Speaker 3: three days or three years, whatever their problems were, are 1095 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,440 Speaker 3: going to be a whole lot worse when they get 1096 01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,760 Speaker 3: out right. The outcomes that no one really thinks about 1097 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,200 Speaker 3: of being in jail for like I said, a week 1098 01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 3: whatever it is, a month is. If you had a job, 1099 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:36,400 Speaker 3: it's gone right. You may have lost your housing, if 1100 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 3: you have some sort of temporary housing situation or or anything. 1101 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,320 Speaker 3: Your kids may have been taken away by child protective services. 1102 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 3: Because if you're a single parent where they're going right, 1103 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:51,640 Speaker 3: or maybe they're who knows right, maybe medications, you don't 1104 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 3: have things, everything is worse. And now you're in a 1105 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 3: desperate situation where you may be forced to make a 1106 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 3: terrible this is and and have to commit a crime 1107 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:04,640 Speaker 3: in order to feed yourself or have place to live 1108 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 3: or whatever it is. And so studies that have been 1109 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,320 Speaker 3: done by University of Pennsylvania, the Quadronan Center there, the 1110 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,880 Speaker 3: Arnold Foundation, others have shown that people who don't go 1111 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:20,400 Speaker 3: to jail before trial are much less likely to commit 1112 01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 3: a crime or be arrested for a crime in the 1113 01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:30,640 Speaker 3: ensuing time after they've been freed, after their case was adjudicated, right, 1114 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 3: and they were freed. So it's demonstrably true that freeing people, 1115 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,200 Speaker 3: except for people who are accused of the most terrible things, right, 1116 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 3: is a policy that saves us huge amounts of money, 1117 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,720 Speaker 3: hundreds of millions of dollars. And they even studied in 1118 01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,000 Speaker 3: Texas the first five hundred thousand people that were freed 1119 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,840 Speaker 3: because of Ala Carqatzanus's work where and by the way, 1120 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,920 Speaker 3: the California Supreme Court usually recently just ruled unanimously that 1121 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,760 Speaker 3: he's right again and that they can't set money bail 1122 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,880 Speaker 3: that people can't afford. So but in Texas they found 1123 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,160 Speaker 3: that there were no negative outcomes from these five hundred 1124 01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:09,440 Speaker 3: thousand people who are freed. Of course, somebody's going to 1125 01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,520 Speaker 3: do something, and that's going to be the story in 1126 01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,240 Speaker 3: the newspapers because it's clickbait and because it's an easy 1127 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 3: story it's lazy journalism, right. Someone goes, oh, this guy 1128 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 3: was freed on bail and the next thing you know, 1129 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:21,400 Speaker 3: he hit this old lady over the head in an 1130 01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,320 Speaker 3: ATM and stole her thing, and now she's in the 1131 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,680 Speaker 3: hospital and everybody's upset, and it's like and now there's 1132 01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,040 Speaker 3: a crime wave. And that goes back to that same narrative. 1133 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 3: So that's the copaganda thing. But in fact, if we're 1134 01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 3: really interested in making our community safer, then we take 1135 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,640 Speaker 3: that money that we're wasting on jails for these people 1136 01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 3: who are presumed innocent and spend it on things that 1137 01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,920 Speaker 3: actually make us safer, which is job training, social services, 1138 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,400 Speaker 3: treatment for people who have mental illness, people for treatment 1139 01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 3: who may need it, for substance abuse, you know, fixing 1140 01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,440 Speaker 3: street lights, putting green spaces, like it sounds airy fairy 1141 01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,880 Speaker 3: and like, you know whatever, but it actually works, Like 1142 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:06,880 Speaker 3: putting green spaces in neighborhoods that really need them provides 1143 01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:12,760 Speaker 3: hope and makes people less prone to do things that 1144 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,760 Speaker 3: are violent or even just illegal. 1145 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:20,560 Speaker 2: Just to stay on money, gosh, I'm gonna throw a 1146 01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:22,880 Speaker 2: couple of statistics out and then ask you a question 1147 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 2: on prompts. So, according to the National Registry of Exonerations exonerations. 1148 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,840 Speaker 2: As of September twenty twenty two, there have been three 1149 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,520 Speaker 2: two hundred and forty eight exonerations inside the United States 1150 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:40,960 Speaker 2: since nineteen eighty nine, which is simultaneously feels like a 1151 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,320 Speaker 2: huge number and a tenC tiny, itty bitty little number 1152 01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,520 Speaker 2: when you think about the overall number of people who 1153 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:51,960 Speaker 2: have been incarcerated. Okay, so if you happen to be 1154 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:56,760 Speaker 2: exonerated and you're one of those lucky few people, the 1155 01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,840 Speaker 2: thought is, well, this person was wrong for convicted and 1156 01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:05,840 Speaker 2: exonerated after spending twenty thirty eight years in prison. Isn't 1157 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,000 Speaker 2: that person entitled to some kind of compensation from the 1158 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,720 Speaker 2: state in which they were incarcerated because they were wrongfully convicted, 1159 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,280 Speaker 2: spent a bunch of time in prison, lost their life right, 1160 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,439 Speaker 2: their family got set back. As we've been talking about 1161 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,920 Speaker 2: in this episode, we recently learned that in inside DC, 1162 01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,680 Speaker 2: so the District of Columbia, and thirty eight out of 1163 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:29,240 Speaker 2: the fifty states, there are state statutes that exist to 1164 01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:34,400 Speaker 2: help someone who's been exonerated get compensation. But it's only 1165 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,920 Speaker 2: those thirty eight states, right, What have you learned in 1166 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:42,440 Speaker 2: making wrongful conviction about the ability of someone who's been 1167 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 2: exonerated to get some money or some kind of compensation 1168 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:47,920 Speaker 2: from the state or the federal government. 1169 01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,680 Speaker 3: The two questions I get asked most frequently by people 1170 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,920 Speaker 3: who are new to this world. Right, someone I just 1171 01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 3: meet at some random event or whatever. Maybe they see 1172 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 3: my T shirt This is Wrongful Conviction podcast on whatever, 1173 01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:04,080 Speaker 3: let's see it sparks of conversation. They always want to 1174 01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:09,480 Speaker 3: know and they hear these stories and they say, please 1175 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,040 Speaker 3: tell me, like, what happened to the prosecutor. Was the 1176 01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:18,640 Speaker 3: prosecutor ever did they get in trouble for framing this person? 1177 01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,160 Speaker 3: And the answer to that is ninety nine point nine 1178 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,000 Speaker 3: percent of the time, absolutely not. There was no because 1179 01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,919 Speaker 3: they have absolute immunity. Only two prosecutors have ever gone 1180 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,320 Speaker 3: to jail for framing someone in America, one guy in 1181 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,320 Speaker 3: Texas Anderson who went to jail for three days and 1182 01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:37,400 Speaker 3: the other guy in the Duke Lacrosse case who went 1183 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,960 Speaker 3: to jail for one night. That's it, so that has 1184 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:46,040 Speaker 3: to change. But to answer your question, the other question 1185 01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:48,920 Speaker 3: that people ask me is exactly when you just asked 1186 01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,880 Speaker 3: to tell me this guy, this woman who just did 1187 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,880 Speaker 3: Michelle Murviy twenty years, she got compensated. And the answer 1188 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,560 Speaker 3: to that is sometimes, and even when they do, it 1189 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 3: takes years. Even in the states that do have those statutes, 1190 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,040 Speaker 3: they put you through hoop after hoop after hoop to 1191 01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 3: try to get paid, and it can take years. And 1192 01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,800 Speaker 3: in between what are you supposed to do? And don't 1193 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,680 Speaker 3: forget that there are a huge number of people who 1194 01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:23,040 Speaker 3: are freed on because they've had their convictions overturned, but 1195 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,120 Speaker 3: the state ain't done with them. So they'll go to 1196 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,880 Speaker 3: them and say, Lorenzo Johnson, for instance, right, it did 1197 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,919 Speaker 3: twenty two years wrongfully convicted twice in Pennsylvania. It proved 1198 01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,760 Speaker 3: his innocence twice. It's conviction overturned twice. And then they said, 1199 01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,640 Speaker 3: we're going to try you a third time unless you 1200 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,000 Speaker 3: take a play. Take a play. You can go home 1201 01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:42,680 Speaker 3: right now, and it said Sophie's choice. Right. And these 1202 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:48,240 Speaker 3: pleas happen in courtrooms before like upon arrest, right before 1203 01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,280 Speaker 3: a trial. They happen all the time right where and 1204 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,720 Speaker 3: they're called sometimes they're called exploding Please where you have 1205 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,120 Speaker 3: they go? Matt, Look, you got half an hour to 1206 01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,240 Speaker 3: decide fifteen minutes. Here's a play. You can go home now. 1207 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:01,480 Speaker 3: But this is gonna be on your record, or you're 1208 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:02,960 Speaker 3: gonna go to jail for a week or whatever it is. 1209 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:04,480 Speaker 3: But if you go to trial, we're to throw the 1210 01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:06,600 Speaker 3: book at you. And it can be much worse than that. 1211 01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:08,240 Speaker 3: I could say it could be winning off of you 1212 01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:09,600 Speaker 3: two years. But if you go to trial, you can 1213 01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,160 Speaker 3: get forty. Right. That's a real thing. And people take 1214 01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:16,040 Speaker 3: please all the time because it's the rational thing to do, 1215 01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,040 Speaker 3: even if they didn't commit the crime. But the fact 1216 01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,960 Speaker 3: is that so many people are freed on these Alfred 1217 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,760 Speaker 3: pleas or other pleas where they're not admitting guilt, but 1218 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,519 Speaker 3: they have no chance to sue for compensation and they're 1219 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,320 Speaker 3: just left on their own. You know. I have to 1220 01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:33,599 Speaker 3: tell the story of Vincent Simmons, who came home last 1221 01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,200 Speaker 3: year after forty four years and nine months in prison 1222 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:38,880 Speaker 3: in Louisiana. We covered his story on Ronfuel Conviction. I 1223 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,559 Speaker 3: think we're the first national outlet to do it. It led 1224 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:45,960 Speaker 3: to CBS and eventually the accusers admitted that they made 1225 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,760 Speaker 3: up the story and he did forty four years and 1226 01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:51,360 Speaker 3: nine months for a crime that never happened. But still 1227 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,920 Speaker 3: he was freed but not exonerated. And I asked him. 1228 01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,720 Speaker 3: Vincent came home. He's seventy years old. You're freed. What 1229 01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:01,840 Speaker 3: did they give you? They give you anything? He goes, yeah, 1230 01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,640 Speaker 3: they gave me ten dollars. I go ten dollars? Was 1231 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,360 Speaker 3: that cash? He goes, no, it was a debit card. 1232 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,800 Speaker 3: I'm like, how's about that, right? But the answer is 1233 01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:19,760 Speaker 3: we need to fix compensation statutes. These people should be 1234 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:24,880 Speaker 3: given a check made out to you know their name 1235 01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,840 Speaker 3: and directions how to get to the bank, and you 1236 01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,840 Speaker 3: know a name of someone who can help them. They should. 1237 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:36,880 Speaker 3: But ironically, when you're freed on actual innocence, you get nothing. 1238 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,840 Speaker 3: You know, you're just out to defend for yourself. People 1239 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,000 Speaker 3: who come home that are guilty they're on parole, actually 1240 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 3: get a probation officer who, in theory at least can 1241 01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,679 Speaker 3: help them with different things they have to navigate, whether 1242 01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,880 Speaker 3: that's how to write a resume or how to do 1243 01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,840 Speaker 3: basic things that they've lost track of, how to work 1244 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:57,240 Speaker 3: a phone, write anything. But people who are innocent are 1245 01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,240 Speaker 3: basically left defend for themselves. And if they're in one 1246 01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,519 Speaker 3: of those thirty eighth stay maybe entitled the compensation, but 1247 01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,680 Speaker 3: it might be woefully low. You know, Michelle Murphy who 1248 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:06,720 Speaker 3: we talked about, got two hundred thousand dollars for her 1249 01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 3: twenty years in prison, and you know thirty or forty 1250 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 3: percent of that went to her lawyers, right, So you know, 1251 01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,760 Speaker 3: we need to fix these compensation statutes. It's one of 1252 01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,280 Speaker 3: the things that the Innocence Project is leading to charge 1253 01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:23,160 Speaker 3: on and many others are working on it, and we 1254 01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:27,000 Speaker 3: need to. We need to, at a minimum, give these 1255 01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,960 Speaker 3: people who are innocent a chance to rebuild their lives 1256 01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,200 Speaker 3: and to live out their days in at least relative comfort. 1257 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,760 Speaker 1: And one of the most powerful questions for us to 1258 01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:45,760 Speaker 1: include here is the question about activism, right, about participation, 1259 01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:50,720 Speaker 1: about no longer passively accepting these egregious things as a 1260 01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:58,320 Speaker 1: normal state. Given your experience with this, Jason, if someone 1261 01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:01,120 Speaker 1: came up to you and they said, okay, I know 1262 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:06,840 Speaker 1: nothing other than there are some serious problems. What can 1263 01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,000 Speaker 1: I do? What do you tell them? 1264 01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:16,920 Speaker 3: Well, it starts with everybody has a voice. Knowledge is power, right, 1265 01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:22,160 Speaker 3: So listen to the podcast Wrongful Conviction, Bone Valley. There's 1266 01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:23,760 Speaker 3: so many other good ones out there that you can 1267 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,800 Speaker 3: hear as well. Read right, So read like I said, 1268 01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:31,560 Speaker 3: Alex Copaganda Newsletter it's free. You can subscribe to it 1269 01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:37,400 Speaker 3: right now. Read as much as you can on the subject. 1270 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:39,080 Speaker 3: I can give you, guys some other links to put 1271 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,000 Speaker 3: in the bio. There's a great book out right now 1272 01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:45,080 Speaker 3: called Junk Science by Chris Fabricant that really shows you 1273 01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 3: how the junk science is used in our courtrooms. We 1274 01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:51,760 Speaker 3: didn't get chance to touch on that, but it's super powerful. 1275 01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:54,280 Speaker 3: Justin Brooks has a book out right now called You 1276 01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 3: Might Go to Prison Even Though You're Innocent. I recommend 1277 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:03,479 Speaker 3: that and the things you can do. Number one, serve 1278 01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,320 Speaker 3: on jury's right. Listen to this stuff, read this stuff already. 1279 01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:10,040 Speaker 3: If you've listened to our show today, your show today, 1280 01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:13,280 Speaker 3: then you're already more knowledgeable than most people you know 1281 01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 3: about this subject. And we need you to serve on 1282 01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:20,320 Speaker 3: juris because you know one person can make the difference. 1283 01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,240 Speaker 3: The life you save could be somebody. That's somebody's loved ones. Right, 1284 01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,920 Speaker 3: And remember when you do serve on jury's that those 1285 01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:30,160 Speaker 3: those are not just words. When you hear the words 1286 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,679 Speaker 3: innocent until proven guilty, that's not the way it works 1287 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,519 Speaker 3: right now, but we need to fix that. Right people 1288 01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,679 Speaker 3: believe you're guilty until proven is and because they've seen 1289 01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:40,960 Speaker 3: too many TV shows and they think, if you're in 1290 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,200 Speaker 3: the defendant's box, must because there must be a good 1291 01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,519 Speaker 3: reason for it in this ornate courtroom. And whatever it 1292 01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,640 Speaker 3: is right and reasonable doubt, we have to return to 1293 01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:54,200 Speaker 3: the standard of reasonable doubt. It's like, if there's a 1294 01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:59,959 Speaker 3: reasonable doubt, you got to quit. And there's that fantastic 1295 01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:03,320 Speaker 3: saying by the famous English jurist Blackstone, who said it 1296 01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,880 Speaker 3: is called Blackstone's theorem, who said that it's better that 1297 01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,639 Speaker 3: ten guilty men go free than that one instance should suffer. 1298 01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:10,639 Speaker 3: And that's why the death penalty needs to be abolished, 1299 01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,240 Speaker 3: among other reasons as well. But serve on jury's vote. 1300 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,240 Speaker 3: I know you're tired of hearing people telling you to vote, 1301 01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 3: but I'm saying vote local right, voting your local DA race, 1302 01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,639 Speaker 3: voting your local judge race right. So few people do 1303 01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:28,120 Speaker 3: that your vote literally could be the difference, right. I 1304 01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,479 Speaker 3: think you should vote in all campaigns, but you know 1305 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:33,519 Speaker 3: your vote in the presidential race is extremely unlikely to 1306 01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,759 Speaker 3: tip the scales, right, but you should do it anyway. 1307 01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:42,760 Speaker 3: But the DA's races have such an important you know 1308 01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,760 Speaker 3: the results of those races. The difference is profound you know, 1309 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,000 Speaker 3: I recently was involved with the race in Memphis with 1310 01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,400 Speaker 3: Steve Mulroy, who you know, not too long after he won, 1311 01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,599 Speaker 3: in a big upset, he replaced a woman who had 1312 01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:04,240 Speaker 3: sworn I'd never prosecute a cop. Well, her office did. 1313 01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,640 Speaker 3: She didn't say those words, but her office had effectively 1314 01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,519 Speaker 3: said that, and they didn't say exactly those words. So 1315 01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:10,280 Speaker 3: let me take that back. They said unless there was 1316 01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,040 Speaker 3: one hundred witnesses in a video, they wouldn't, and they didn't. 1317 01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 3: And the fact is, four months after he won, Tyree 1318 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,599 Speaker 3: Nichols was murdered by those cops in the Scorpion unit 1319 01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,240 Speaker 3: who beat him to death. And Steve did the right thing, 1320 01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,559 Speaker 3: and he had all those cops arrested and charged with murder. 1321 01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,639 Speaker 3: And you know, it couldn't be more obvious. It's on video, 1322 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,120 Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean. You know, we've all seen these 1323 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,040 Speaker 3: things before. And I think he probably prevented riots from 1324 01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:35,639 Speaker 3: happening and everything else. So we have to get better 1325 01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,280 Speaker 3: people in those positions, and you can do that. So 1326 01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:42,400 Speaker 3: and then you know, remember that your voice matters. Right. 1327 01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,440 Speaker 3: It's easy to feel helpless, but if you know somebody 1328 01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,920 Speaker 3: who's suffering in prison, you can you know, just by 1329 01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,479 Speaker 3: talking about it. You never know who's listening, right, just 1330 01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,520 Speaker 3: tell your friends. Somebody knows somebody. The connections are amazing, 1331 01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 3: how these things have happened, and how they snowball, and 1332 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:03,320 Speaker 3: how people advocate hate and becomes a movement, and you know, 1333 01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:08,120 Speaker 3: writing a letter to your local politician. Those letters actually matter, right, 1334 01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:12,280 Speaker 3: They become annoying enough that people change their you know, 1335 01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,160 Speaker 3: change their position on certain things because they get these messages. 1336 01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,800 Speaker 3: You know. So those type of actions, while they may 1337 01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:24,320 Speaker 3: seem like drops in the ocean, they really are significant. 1338 01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:28,040 Speaker 3: And so I think those are some of the steps 1339 01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:32,080 Speaker 3: that anyone can take. And uh, and I hope, you know, 1340 01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,720 Speaker 3: I hope people will will take those and and do 1341 01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,680 Speaker 3: other things and just get involved because this is, i 1342 01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:43,040 Speaker 3: would say, the civil rights issue of our time, and 1343 01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:44,720 Speaker 3: and we can fix it, and we can make our 1344 01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:51,000 Speaker 3: system fairer and better for everyone while also making ourselves safer. 1345 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:56,320 Speaker 3: And you know, and that's really you know, that's that's 1346 01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,479 Speaker 3: what I think. That's something that we can all get 1347 01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,800 Speaker 3: behind and we can and we can really reduce this 1348 01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:06,559 Speaker 3: scourge of wrongful convictions. And so, like I said, you know, 1349 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,400 Speaker 3: follow me on Instagram, you know, I'd posted about this 1350 01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:11,559 Speaker 3: stuff all the time. It's it's Jason Flahm. I t 1351 01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:18,040 Speaker 3: s Jason flam And and yeah, look, I appreciate anyone 1352 01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:22,000 Speaker 3: who's who's hung in there with us is somebody who's 1353 01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,840 Speaker 3: interested and hopefully a new devotee to the cause. 1354 01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,920 Speaker 5: And we certainly appreciate you being here and giving us 1355 01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,719 Speaker 5: your time and for all of your efforts and passion 1356 01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:32,759 Speaker 5: in this, you know, in this realm. 1357 01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,479 Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you guys having me, and I'm a 1358 01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,360 Speaker 3: fan of your show, so this is really fun for me, 1359 01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:41,200 Speaker 3: you know, And I'm looking forward to doing more stuff together. 1360 01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:43,639 Speaker 3: And I'd love to have some of the other people, 1361 01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:44,960 Speaker 3: you know, I would love to have to see if 1362 01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:46,400 Speaker 3: you guys could have Alec on your show. I think 1363 01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,639 Speaker 3: you would probably really enjoy him as a guest. He's 1364 01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,720 Speaker 3: a brilliant speaker. He sounds fascinating. Definitely. I'll tell you this. 1365 01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,600 Speaker 3: I took my son to a a he had a 1366 01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:59,600 Speaker 3: book release party when he released this book called Usual Cruelty, 1367 01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 3: and yeah it's good and uh, wait, what's your son's name. 1368 01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:11,360 Speaker 3: My son's name is Michael, and uh and as it happened, 1369 01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,479 Speaker 3: it was it at someone's apartment and there was you know, 1370 01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,599 Speaker 3: a bunch of people around. Was it like Novagratz's apartment whatever, 1371 01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:19,680 Speaker 3: And there was you know, probably a hundred people there 1372 01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:21,200 Speaker 3: and were milling around, and then all of a sudden 1373 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:23,160 Speaker 3: events sort of started and he and I were on 1374 01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:25,280 Speaker 3: opposite sides of the room, and so we just had 1375 01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:26,760 Speaker 3: to stay there instead of like, you know, yeah, I 1376 01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:28,599 Speaker 3: just got a little awkward you walk through the middle 1377 01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:31,280 Speaker 3: of the day. And anyway, so Alex starts talking in 1378 01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,960 Speaker 3: about ten minutes into his talk. Seven minutes into his talk, 1379 01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,600 Speaker 3: my son, Mikey text me and he goes, Dad, this 1380 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:42,280 Speaker 3: is the coldest motherfucker alive. And now Mike he's going 1381 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,679 Speaker 3: to go to law school because of him. My son's 1382 01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:47,479 Speaker 3: going to law school. So you know, it's like, yeah, 1383 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:49,920 Speaker 3: that's that's the guy. Man, that's the guy. And and 1384 01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,840 Speaker 3: you know, actually, if we have one more minute, I'll 1385 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,320 Speaker 3: read you something. Do we have one more minute? We 1386 01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,599 Speaker 3: can we can go of course, Yeah, all right, let's 1387 01:17:57,600 --> 01:17:59,439 Speaker 3: do this. I'm going to read this. I actually read 1388 01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:03,000 Speaker 3: this same passage when I was on Joe Rogan and 1389 01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,320 Speaker 3: it really had a profound impact. And I'll read this 1390 01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,840 Speaker 3: to anybody that will ever listen. This is This is 1391 01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:12,160 Speaker 3: from Alex's essay that formed the basis of the book 1392 01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 3: Usual Cruelty, and it was in the Yale Law Review. 1393 01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,040 Speaker 3: And it starts like this. It's called the Punishment, The 1394 01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:25,920 Speaker 3: Punishment Bureaucracy. How to think about Criminal justice Reform. On 1395 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,519 Speaker 3: January twenty sixth, twenty fourteen, Charnell Mitchell was sitting on 1396 01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:31,400 Speaker 3: her couch with her one year old daughter on her 1397 01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:33,519 Speaker 3: lap and her four year old son to her side. 1398 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:37,560 Speaker 3: Armed government agents entered her home, put her in metal restraints, 1399 01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:39,479 Speaker 3: took her from her children, and brought her to the 1400 01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:43,439 Speaker 3: Montgomery City Jail. Jail staff told Charnell that she owed 1401 01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,800 Speaker 3: the city money for old traffic tickets. The city had 1402 01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,400 Speaker 3: privatized a collection of her debts to a for profit 1403 01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,000 Speaker 3: probation company, which had sought a warrant for her arrest. 1404 01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:54,479 Speaker 3: I happened to be sitting in the courtroom on the 1405 01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:56,880 Speaker 3: morning that Charnelle was brought to court, along with dozens 1406 01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:58,800 Speaker 3: of other people who had been jailed because they owed 1407 01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,280 Speaker 3: the city money. The judge demanded that Charnelle pay or 1408 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,920 Speaker 3: stay in jail. If she could not pay, she would 1409 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,080 Speaker 3: be kept in a cage until she quotes sat out 1410 01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:10,080 Speaker 3: her debts at fifty dollars per day or at seventy 1411 01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:12,040 Speaker 3: five dollars per day if she agreed to clean the 1412 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:15,439 Speaker 3: courthouse bathrooms and the feces, blood and mucus from the 1413 01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:20,040 Speaker 3: jail walls. An hour later, in a windowless cell, Charnelle 1414 01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:22,080 Speaker 3: told me that a jail guard had given her a pencil, 1415 01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:24,760 Speaker 3: and she showed me the crumpled court document on the 1416 01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,200 Speaker 3: back of which she had calculated how many more weeks 1417 01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,920 Speaker 3: of forced labor separated her from her children. That day. 1418 01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,000 Speaker 3: She became my first client as a civil rights lawyer. 1419 01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,760 Speaker 3: So yeah, start with that. And that's what our that's hited. 1420 01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,639 Speaker 3: In a nutshell, that's what our criminal legal system really does. 1421 01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:46,280 Speaker 3: Cops are not out catching bad guys. They're going and 1422 01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:49,640 Speaker 3: arresting Charnelle Mitchell in front of her kids because she 1423 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:54,040 Speaker 3: owed the city money for traffic tickets. And that's it 1424 01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:58,759 Speaker 3: in a nutshell, And that's the stuff we got to stop. Cops. 1425 01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,000 Speaker 3: If there's violent crime, and this, this horrible shooting in 1426 01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,160 Speaker 3: Atlanta today is we're recording, of course not when people 1427 01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,200 Speaker 3: are hearing this, but you know, yeah, we do. We 1428 01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:11,519 Speaker 3: need cops to go do that, yes, but by having 1429 01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,240 Speaker 3: them do all these other things, all we're doing is 1430 01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:20,200 Speaker 3: distracting and you know, and creating these horrible interactions that 1431 01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:24,280 Speaker 3: lead to these terribly unfair and unjust outcomes. So look, 1432 01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:30,840 Speaker 3: let's let's join forces, you know, join me, follow me, listen, read, learn, 1433 01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:35,040 Speaker 3: and get involved, because together we can fix this. And 1434 01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:36,840 Speaker 3: that's that's what I got to say about that. 1435 01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,599 Speaker 1: This was some heavy, heavy stuff, but I'm really glad 1436 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:44,439 Speaker 1: we were able to, uh, we're able to pull Jason 1437 01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:47,400 Speaker 1: on here after that panel. You know, this might actually 1438 01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:48,559 Speaker 1: come out before the panel. 1439 01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it will, And I'm really glad we 1440 01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:56,559 Speaker 2: drilled down into some of these topics that whole. The 1441 01:20:56,720 --> 01:21:00,200 Speaker 2: concept that you could be kept in prison wrongfully for 1442 01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:04,559 Speaker 2: that long and then not be compensated by the people 1443 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:07,640 Speaker 2: that put you in prison wrongfully blows my mind, Like, I. 1444 01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:12,520 Speaker 1: Really, you can send people to prison wrongfully with no consequence. 1445 01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably that's probably the most important thing that it 1446 01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:17,599 Speaker 2: can happen in the first place, but just that there's 1447 01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,559 Speaker 2: almost no consequence to the state for doing it. 1448 01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:25,759 Speaker 5: Not to mention the whole you know, basically unlawful seizure 1449 01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,960 Speaker 5: of property, you know, I mean and it's just wild. 1450 01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:32,320 Speaker 5: And I really like that Jason reference that we own 1451 01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:35,280 Speaker 5: the city. It really is kind of an eye opening 1452 01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,880 Speaker 5: look at how that aspect can really even go further 1453 01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:42,800 Speaker 5: and deeper and even more, you know, disturbing crooked directions. 1454 01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:47,000 Speaker 1: Agreed, agreed, And look, you don't have to take our 1455 01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:50,639 Speaker 1: word for folks. You can check out Wrongful Convictions, as 1456 01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,720 Speaker 1: we said earlier in the show, check out the Innocence 1457 01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:59,559 Speaker 1: Project too. Because whether or not there's something Jason said earlier, 1458 01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:05,040 Speaker 1: it's whether or not you believe this affects you, spoiler, 1459 01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:08,080 Speaker 1: it does in some way, and we want to hear 1460 01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:11,200 Speaker 1: your stories. We want to hear your first hand experience. 1461 01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:14,760 Speaker 1: We want to hear your thoughts on what we can 1462 01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:18,799 Speaker 1: do as individuals or as a system to address these issues. 1463 01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:21,320 Speaker 1: We try to be easy to find online. 1464 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:21,760 Speaker 4: That's right. 1465 01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,960 Speaker 5: You can find us on the usual social media channels. 1466 01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,400 Speaker 5: Of note, we are Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook, Twitter, and 1467 01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:31,919 Speaker 5: also YouTube or Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram and TikTok. 1468 01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 2: If you want to give us a call, our number 1469 01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:39,479 Speaker 2: is one eight three three STDWYTK. When you call in, 1470 01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:42,080 Speaker 2: give yourself a nickname and you've got three minutes to 1471 01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:45,280 Speaker 2: say whatever you'd like on that voicemail. Just you can't 1472 01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,800 Speaker 2: go over three minutes. That's really the only rule. Let 1473 01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:49,880 Speaker 2: us know if we can use your name and message 1474 01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:52,840 Speaker 2: on the air. If you don't like using your phone 1475 01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:54,960 Speaker 2: to call people, why not instead send us a good 1476 01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:55,960 Speaker 2: old fashioned email. 1477 01:22:56,120 --> 01:23:18,080 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 1478 01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:20,280 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production 1479 01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:24,920 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1480 01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,880 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.